Will It Be Back to the 1996 Price for This Vintage 3-Bedroom? 434 W. Oakdale in East Lakeview

Less than a month ago, we chattered about whether or not vintage was “out” as this 3-bedroom at 434 W. Oakdale in East Lakeview simply wasn’t selling.

434-w-oakdale-approved.jpg

See our April 2011 chatter here.

Since that time, it has been reduced another $75,000.

Yes, it is a short sale.

It also has some new pictures (without any furniture) – as some of you complained about the furniture in one of the prior chatters.

The window treatments (that you also complained about) also look to be gone.

The mint green kitchen cabinets have been painted white.

There are still no pictures of the bathrooms, so I’m assuming those are the same as the original listing (and comments which described them as needing updating.)

Even the agent conceded that the kitchen/bathrooms need updating.

Some of you who said you were in this unit believed it would need $150k-$200k worth of updating.

But the unit has good vintage bones, including a beamed dining room ceiling.  

And the property is still 2300 square feet with central air, washer/dryer in the unit and covered parking in East Lakeview.

At what price will a buyer take a chance on this unit?

Will it sell under the 1996 purchase price?

Anne Laughlin at @Properties still has the listing. See the pictures here.

Unit #2: 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, 2300 square feet, covered parking

  • Sold in May 1989 for $275,000
  • Sold in May 1991
  • Sold in September 1996 for $400,000
  • Sold in September 2005 for $675,000
  • Originally listed in April 2010 for $699,900
  • Reduced
  • Was listed in March 2011 as a “short sale” for $525,000
  • Reduced
  • Was listed in April 2011 for $499,900
  • Reduced
  • Currently listed at $424,900
  • Assessments of $389 a month
  • Taxes of $9794
  • Central Air
  • Washer/Dryer in the unit
  • Bedroom #1: 13×13
  • Bedroom #2: 15×10
  • Bedroom #3: 13×13
  • Sun room: 18×10

171 Responses to “Will It Be Back to the 1996 Price for This Vintage 3-Bedroom? 434 W. Oakdale in East Lakeview”

  1. I am at a loss as to why this isn’t moving. I looked at these units years ago when they first converted to condos and felt the space was very generous and livable. True: updating would be be great but at this price psf in this location with a unit that is currently livable this is a great deal. In time, if one plans to saty you could re-do the horrible fireplaces and refit the kitchen and baths to meet your needs. The plumbing should be in good shape so mostly it is a cosmetic upgrade that is relatively simple.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  2. Sound between the units could be an issue with those hardwood floors and I know there is no sound proofing between units. Good neighbors would be a “must have”.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  3. I’m also surprised that this place hasn’t sold at this price. It must be the difficulty of obtaining financing for many buyers at this time. Financing is really tight right now and lenders are sometimes asking for information and documentation far in excess of what is required for prudence. An example of ridiculous, irrelevant questions are: where did your stay-at-home wife attend college, or where did you work 20 years ago, or, there is this bounced check or unpaid ticket.

    The tight financing will not trouble high end buyers who have boatloads of cash, but it is bogging down low-end and middle-tier housing.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  4. Isn’t it more difficult now to obtain mortgage for a unit in a small condo association, requiring some confirmation of financial stability of both assoc and other units’ mortgage status? For a lender, this 3-flat’s unit may present lenders more risk of future foreclosure.

    Casual checking of MLS suggests that current asking prices are significantly lower in many areas than several months ago, with exception of Lincoln Park and Gold Coast, particularly if a little TLC is needed. Perhaps by mid-summer there will be a big pool of “great deal” homes for sale.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  5. Wow – this is a ridiculously good deal. Your monthly costs are less than 3000/month and although you MAY be able to find something similar for a few hundred dollars/month less to rent, you have to remember that this is a pretty fixed cost (yeah, I know that assm. and taxes may increase a bit) over the next 30 years (thereafter costs will go down)!!! Seriously, ask anyone how to build wealth and longevity in real estate (and almost anything else) and they will tell you “time and patience pay off big-time in the long run”. Look at all the old-timers sitting on gold mines. The answers are all out there – you just need to know who to look to…..

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  6. If it’s not “move in ready” buyers aren’t touching it- even if it’s “cheap.” No one has the extra cash to do any renovations and Generation Y and X don’t have the time or desire to do it. They want to move in and be done except for paint. They want “new.”

    So- this unit does NOT have an updated kitchen or baths. There is no granite or stainless steel appliances. So, apparently, no one wants it- even at the 1996 price.

    VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  7. “Casual checking of MLS suggests that current asking prices are significantly lower in many areas than several months ago, with exception of Lincoln Park and Gold Coast.”

    I would agree. Prices are falling again. Even in LP and Gold Coast- though they are more likely to just sit there with it on the market month after month “waiting” for a buyer in the LP and GC. How badly do they really want to move? That’s the question. Just recently I’ve seen some sellers throwing in the towel in LP and GC and reducing.

    VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  8. “Sound between the units could be an issue with those hardwood floors and I know there is no sound proofing between units.”

    How do you know?

    VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  9. Ed- you looked at this building 22 years ago???

    Wow.

    VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  10. “Sound between the units could be an issue with those hardwood floors and I know there is no sound proofing between units. Good neighbors would be a “must have”.”

    This would be an absolute deal-breaker for me. I can’t imagine why anyone would be ok with this.

    It would be unfathomable to me spend this kind of money on a place and have to deal with hearing my neighbors make sounds during their daily routines, and conversely, for me to worry about disturbing my neighbors with my listening to music and movies.

    As I prepare to make my first home-buying purchase in the price-range of this place, sound transmission between units is at the top of my list of considerations…

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  11. $350,000.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  12. I don’t think soundproofing is common to add to vintage rehabs. Sure, you will probably hear the people above you. But if you don’t want to deal with the sound issue your trade off will be a SFH way out in the burbs.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  13. Ummmm…..OK. Even out in the way out burbs you get the damn cicadas chirping all evening and the damn birds chirping outside your bedroom window at 4:00 a.m.

    “ChiBuilder on May 5th, 2011 at 7:42 am

    I don’t think soundproofing is common to add to vintage rehabs. Sure, you will probably hear the people above you. But if you don’t want to deal with the sound issue your trade off will be a SFH way out in the burbs.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  14. my uncle was the 1996 seller of this building. i was only 12 when he moved but i remember the unit being very spacious. spent a few thanksgivings there. i will say, it looked exactly the same back then.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  15. The association is too small. All it would take would be one bad owner to ruin the building for everyone.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  16. why are the taxes so high and why are there no bedroom pics?

    also, is nettlehorst ok?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  17. “As I prepare to make my first home-buying purchase in the price-range of this place, sound transmission between units is at the top of my list of considerations…”

    nwzimmer- good luck in schaumburg – cuz u aint going to find anything better than this at this price in any safe neighborhood in chicago

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  18. I can really only comment on my friends who are in the market – one who just purchased a 1995ish built LV 3/2.5 townhome, another a 2/2 at 235 VB, and another 2/2 at 421 huron – is that they are not interested in vintage townhomes. If this were a SFH, I could see it moving extremely quickly but the noise factor and repair uncertainity (having to deal with neighbors for both issues) is a deal breaker.

    Pls hold your comments on if you think they caught a knife or made poor decisions. They are all exremely happy and excited about their new properities and searched quite a bit prior signing the paperwork.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  19. westloopelo on May 5th, 2011 at 8:04 am

    Very nice place for the $$$. I too can’t firgure out why it has not sold. Using the previous featured properties in this range as a comparison, it is def worth the investment. Replacing baths can be done on a budget while still looking and functioning great. I’d much rather replace baths than kitchens and this one’s kitchen is more than adequate.
    The all white kitchen does look as though it belongs and it looks neat and clean. The only ‘issue’ I have with the ‘trendy’ all white scheme (80% of what I have been seeing in newer NYC listings…the remaining 20% being all black looks) is when white hinges (and handles/pulls) are not used on the cabinet doors…brushed aluminum handles look appropriate and modern, but hinges the need to be white.
    Sound probably is not an issue as the ceilings seem to be rather high and construction during this time was solid using fairly thick wood for flooring. In vintage units, usually large rugs are employed for aesthetic and insulation reasons.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  20. sabrina, its a short sale, they could price it at the 1972 price and it still won’t move

    the bank is the issue here

    425k for this place is a deal, but its not going to close below 450 in a few years is my best guess

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  21. The market also totally sucks right now. what will this sell for when it becomes a foreclosure?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  22. I consistently sound proof in the rehabs that I have done and do. Minimal cost for a big difference. I did look at this unit years ago when it underwent renovation. I thought it was overpriced and I purchased a single family home 2 blocks away for 75K less and did my own changes to suit my lifestyle rather than pay for someone’s taste I could not appreciate.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  23. ” But if you don’t want to deal with the sound issue your trade off will be a SFH way out in the burbs.”

    I have enough friends that own places in high-rise buildings as well as 2 or 3 flats to know that you can live in these type of places and not have to hear your neighbors noises, and not worry about disturbing them if you want to play some music late on a Friday night. And the condo I’m leasing right now has no problem with this either.

    The difficulty I see is in accurately determining if a place that you’e considering buying has the proper sound insulation between units and which don’t. I haven’t found good answers on this yet, but I’m still researching.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  24. I like it! But I think that Sonies is right… the bank isn’t ready to accept a $425K offer, let alone a sub-$425K offer. I’d love to own this place at $350K (but the taxes suck).

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  25. Yes, Nettelhorst is very good, currently for about 6th grade and younger.

    The taxes are crazy high. Also, they need to show pics of the two outdoor spaces. But great location, good school, with parking, beautiful vintage details. Like.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  26. What does everyone think of this as a comp? Its literally a block south.

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/450-W-Surf-St-60657/unit-3/home/13372105

    Assessments are a little higher, no parking, but $375/month savings in taxes…

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  27. Sonies’ repeated point as to it being a short sale is a huge factor here: the new low price is likely just to get buyers’ attention, and may be quite a ways off from what the bank will actually accept to close.

    The other factors would be (i) the lack of a garage and (ii) having upstairs neighbors in a truly vintage place. At the peak of the bubble, just having a dedicated outdoor space was enough, but these days many people (myself included) really want their car kept indoors (even if unheated). And while non-top floor places moved quickly during the bubble, many people (myself included) are now being picky about places with overhead neighbors (and yes, while I’d also prefer to not worry about disturbing neighbors below, as top-floor dwellers, while we try to be considerate, it’s not a paramount concern).

    Things like the kitchen might deter some buyers, as would the lack of a powder room (I realize they were rare a century ago, but these days, with all that space one would think a small powder room could be placed somewhere).

    Given the location, space, awesome living/dining areas and good elementary school, somebody is bound to score a great deal in the $450-475ish range.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  28. With all the hassle of short sales I’m surprised some bank doesn’t have a program where they provide the loan to a very qualified buyer that they obviously vetted and are convinced are a good risk.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  29. Icarus, the bank should just say this is the price we will take and be done with it. Right now, short sales involve this cat and mouse game where the buyer makes an offer than then agent takes it to the bank and then the bank does a couple of BPO’s/Appraisals and comes back with their counter offer. Of course, this takes like 5 months.

    The process would be a lot easier if the sellers had short sale approval prior to listing the home for sale and the bank just flat out says, “We will take X”. List the property for X and be done with it. X of course needs to reflect market realities that it is a short sale and should be lower than applicable comps. X should also be non-negotiable to get these properties cleared out fast. Almost like the buy it now price on ebay.

    Right now, the only people buying short sales are buyers who are in no hurry. These folks are far and few between. Most people don’t have the luxury of waiting around five months for a bank to make a decision and then still may not get the property.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  30. Nettlehorst is GREAT. We have friends with 2 kids there and everything they say about it is quite impressive. The problem is Lakeview HS.
    This place is gorgeous and I like that you could make it your own. Over time too, since it’s livable as is.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  31. Russ, that’s kinda my point. I thought having all these short sale properties on the books was bad for the bank. OR are they better off foreclosing and getting 80% PMI plus whatever they nab on selling the foreclosure?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  32. If your kids are the smartest-in-the-room at Nettlehorst they can go to Lane Tech, right? (And I think LakeView is getting some magnet programs, etc. thanks to certain prominent alumni.)

    Is carpet-plus-padding a cheap-and-easy way to “soundproof” a vintage hardwood floor?

    Regarding garage vs. dedicated outdoor parking: I’m hearing this more and more lately. Apparently a good many home-seekers really got “spooked” by the big snow in Feb. and are now shell-shocked into accepting nothing less than heated garage with covered passageway to living space. Can’t say I blame them, but still…
    Maybe the condo assn. here and elsewhere can vote on a “special” for a garage or at least carport?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  33. Icarus, it all depends on whether or not they are still paying the mortgage. If they are, there’s nothing on the book for the lender except a current account. If current, why wouldn’t the bank suggest they try a short sale and string it along as long as possible?

    BTW, I don’t see a foreclosure filing on this one, nor any indication in the listing that the price is already bank-approved. Those are the only circumstances I could see for most to bother with a short sale.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  34. Personally I never see any good option to short sale, there is usually some sort of note at the end the seller is still required to pay, either on the first or the second. Even if you can get them to waive a deficiency, you still have to move out earlier than you otherwise would with a traditional foreclosure. Free rent is a powerful motivator not to move until you absolutely have to.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  35. “Is carpet-plus-padding a cheap-and-easy way to “soundproof” a vintage hardwood floor?”

    It’s certainly a easy way to hide a vintage hardwood floor. But it won’t do anything for the overhead noise.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  36. “I consistently sound proof in the rehabs that I have done and do. Minimal cost for a big difference.”

    Ed, can you point me to information on this subject? I’m actually more interested knowing how to determine whether a condo has sufficient sound insulation, than the process of sound-proofing a condo that doesn’t. (simply because I don’t intend on ever finding myself living in a place that doesn’t)

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  37. “If your kids are the smartest-in-the-room at Nettlehorst they can go to Lane Tech, right?”

    I would hope that the “smartest in the room” 8th graders from Nettlehorst consistently get into their preference of Payton/Young/NSCP, but I dunno. Lane should be realistic for not-quite SITR kids, but isn’t automatic for anyone.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  38. ““Is carpet-plus-padding a cheap-and-easy way to “soundproof” a vintage hardwood floor?”

    It’s certainly a easy way to hide a vintage hardwood floor. But it won’t do anything for the overhead noise.”

    Of course not, since you’d have to buy the rug for your overhead neighbor. But, if they actually put that rug in, it would reduce/eliminate walking-around noise and floor creaking in the area of the rug. *Not* useless, but not a total solution, either.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  39. I think this assessment is super high–what does it include?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  40. “If current, why wouldn’t the bank suggest they try a short sale and string it along as long as possible?”

    Can someone explain the logic as to why banks appear to be sitting on overpriced short sales? If they took the “We will take X” approach Russ suggests above wouldn’t it be a win-win for the bank and buyers? Is the write off offsetting the declining sales price they will incur?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  41. 10 years ago Nettlehorst wasn’t anything special… it’s mind boggling that you people think LVHS is incapable of improving either. Besides, everyone knows educational outcomes are more tied to the student’s parents than the school they attend, so if you are are OK, your kid will probably be OK.
    It’s likely that LVHS will also improve in the coming years, esp since it has a larger pool of yuppies for its PTA’s “Friends of LVHS” fund (or whatever it’s called) to draw from.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  42. ““If current, why wouldn’t the bank suggest they try a short sale and string it along as long as possible?”

    Can someone explain the logic as to why banks appear to be sitting on overpriced short sales? If they took the “We will take X” approach Russ suggests above wouldn’t it be a win-win for the bank and buyers? Is the write off offsetting the declining sales price they will incur?”

    For any given property, there are a number of possibilities: (1) RMBS docs require certain steps before accepting less that book value of loan, (2) hope for rebound in value, (3) managing of losses–only wanting to take writedowns on REO/shortsales = to $X this quarter, (4) dealing with the 2d lien lender, (5) compensation structure for the decision-makers encourages delay, or certain timing, or hitting particular numbers, (6) if the loan is even partly performing (ie, borrower is making some payments), the ratio might improve next year, (7) about 100 other things.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  43. “it’s mind boggling that you people think LVHS is incapable of improving either”

    Wrong conclusion. It isn’t okay now, and one can’t *rely on* it being good in the future.

    I (really!) expect it to improve, but given that there are (imo) currently two marginally acceptable attendance area HS’s in CPS, do you actually think it would be reasonable for me to believe that it will, in my personal timeline, become *better* than LPHS’s *neighborhood* program? Because I think that’s the threshold–better than LPHS’s neighborhood program is *today*.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  44. NW zimmer: If you are renting or buying, ask some one to walk in the unit above you. I have never rented or purchaased in an older building until I understood better the layout/ of the apartment above and the tenants. Older buildings were quieter before the “lift up the carpets/hardwood floor” craze and usually older tenants who are accustomed to living in these buildings repect the sound issue. If you are re-doing (gutting) an older unit always sound proof.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  45. Removing the furniture for sure helped this place. If it were not so far North for our commute, I would check it out. I like the exterior quite a lot. Looks like a rook piece (chess).

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  46. Anon,

    I don’t know what your kids’ ages are so I don’t know your horizon. There is no reason to think LVHS cannot improve as much as Nettlehorst did in 10 years.
    If you don’t have a problem sending your kids to Nettlehorst today, then by the time they reach high school LVHS will be acceptable as well.
    If you want something better than where LPHS is today, then buy in Lincoln Park instead, because LPHS will be better in 10 years than it is today.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  47. “If you don’t have a problem sending your kids to Nettlehorst today, then by the time they reach high school LVHS will be acceptable as well.”

    Bell has been “good” for over 10 years, feeds into LVHS and LVHS is not acceptable, to me, today. Yet it *will be* 10 years from now?

    Look, I’m a CPS booster, as many here could attest to; however, I know that *counting on* schools improving is foolish.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  48. CC Poll – If your downstairs neighbor asked you to install carpeting over your hardwood floors, you would:

    1) Politely decline

    2) Do so if they paid for the carpet and installation

    3) Do so if they paid for the carpet and installation, and paid you $1,000 up front to cover a couple of future steam-cleanings

    4) Do so if, in addition to doing everything in option 3, they also offered to pay you a premium for having to give up the hardwood floors?

    * If you chose option 4, what would that premium be?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  49. “If you don’t have a problem sending your kids to Nettlehorst today, then by the time they reach high school LVHS will be acceptable as well.”

    “Bell has been “good” for over 10 years, feeds into LVHS and LVHS is not acceptable, to me, today. Yet it *will be* 10 years from now?”

    But a better chance for LVHS improving over next 10 then it had over last 10, as a result of more good or improving elems that feed into it now than in the past? Nothing to count on, but a better chance?

    I do wonder where all the kids coming of the good or improving elems will go? I’d think the difficulty with “turning around” a HS versus elem is the larger student body. There’s got to be a network effect where whether you’re willing to send your kid to a school depends on what other parents are doing.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  50. “CC Poll – If your downstairs neighbor asked you to install carpeting over your hardwood floors, you would:”

    Not have a downstairs, or upstairs, neighbor?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  51. gringozecarioca on May 5th, 2011 at 11:30 am

    annony… Think it’s dependant on how one feels about carpet. If your wife always wanted it, then it’s a gift…. Otherwise… Start teaching in the living room the kids to dribble with their left.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  52. LPHS is not acceptable:

    http://www.cps.edu/Schools/Pages/school.aspx?unit=1620

    There are no good attendence area HS. High School is the time where parent influence matters the least and peers are the most important. 2,000 plus kids minus all the kids from good elementary school who go private…It is impossible to stem that tide.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  53. “But a better chance for LVHS improving over next 10 then it had over last 10, as a result of more good or improving elems that feed into it now than in the past? Nothing to count on, but a better chance?”

    Absolutely. No question a better chance going forward, and my impression is that it is already “better” than it was ten years ago.

    “I do wonder where all the kids coming of the good or improving elems will go? I’d think the difficulty with “turning around” a HS versus elem is the larger student body. There’s got to be a network effect where whether you’re willing to send your kid to a school depends on what other parents are doing.”

    Larger student body and less coherent/cohesive “neighborhood” element–LVHS’s attendance area is most of Lake View and most of North Center, so it’s harder to get the organization and focus. Plus kids are there for 4 years rather than 9, and (basically) *everyone* hopes for SEHS/private admission, and there’s a lot of energy going into “new” high schools (Ogden, Alcott, Audubon).

    There is a North Side High School Initiative group working on something, but I’m still at the “future anon” stage of HS worries.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  54. Anon, would still like to know what your time horizon is.

    Now, in addition to Bell you have Blaine, Nettlehorst, Burley and other well regarded (and rapidly improving) CPS elementary schools that weren’t so great 10 years ago. All those kids are not going to get into the magnet schools (or Latin/Parker/Lab) and all those parents aren’t going to ditch Chicago living for the ‘burbs.

    It is an inevitability LVHS will improve, also thanks to the network effects of strong elementary school PTA organizations carried over to high schools. Those kind of institutions don’t just dissolve as the kids get older.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  55. “LPHS is not acceptable:”

    “marginally acceptable” is anon-code for “I don’t want to argue about it”. Wouldn’t send my kids to LPHS neighborhood program unless we had no other choice (which choice *would* include moving).

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  56. Not all but many, if not most. At least that’s been the trend for many years now.

    “all those parents aren’t going to ditch Chicago living for the ‘burbs. “

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  57. “Anon, would still like to know what your time horizon is.”

    Less than 10 more than 1.

    “all those parents aren’t going to ditch Chicago living for the ‘burbs.”

    At a minimum, there will be Audubon and Alcott HS drawing off many of those kids.

    “It is an inevitability LVHS will improve”

    Q is: will it improve enough?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  58. “Not all but many, if not most. At least that’s been the trend for many years now. ”

    The trend used to be that you’d be priced out forever.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  59. I was on the top floor of a vintage unit. The sound was insulated pretty well. The only annoying noise transfer I was aware of is that our down stairs neighbors just asked us to take our shoes off – really asked my wife not to wear heels. Otherwise, I think we were relatively quiet when walking around on the original hardwood floors to the building.

    Hearing your neighbors above you walking around is just a fact of life in vintage buildings unless it is one of the few that has concrete base for the floors.

    When I lived in Evanston (again on top floor), I had an inconsiderate downstairs neighbor who insisted on blasting her stereo which really got under my skin.

    Some of the newer high rises have some pretty crappy insulation in the walls. You won’t hear people walking above or below you, but you will hear your next door neighbors through the walls, especially if they share a living room wall and have huge flat screen with surround sound, etc.

    I also try to look at floor plans to see what walls are shared with neighbors. In my condo (a six flat) the only wall shared was the centerline of the building which was about 2 feet thick of solid brick so no sound passed through from the neighboring unit.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  60. “CC Poll – If your downstairs neighbor asked you to install carpeting over your hardwood floors, you would:”

    I don’t think anyone would realistically expect (or ask) someone to give up their nice hardwood floors for crappy carpeting to workaround a significant deficiency in their building (lack of proper insulation between units).

    I think the sound of footsteps from above should be the least of your concerns with regard to sound transmission (although I agree it’s still important). In this day and age, more and more people have high-end stereos and home theatre systems.

    For example, I have a high-end $18,000 sound system; I know it would be unacceptable to me to have to keep the volume below an acceptable level because of improper sound insulation. Heck, it wouldn’t even feel like a ‘home’ to me if I had to do something like that.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  61. You guys are nuts to think LVHS is going to improve to the point of LPHS it is very far behind:

    http://www.cps.edu/Schools/Pages/school.aspx?unit=1430

    and 10 years will not change these demographics:

    http://www.cps.edu/Schools/Pages/school.aspx?unit=1430

    And I don’t think Nettelhorst is that good actually. There seems to be this idea that if enough parents say there CPS school is good it will be so. Just because your 2 block radius has alot of affluent moms pushing strollers, it does not mean that your attedence area school it good.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  62. “CC Poll – If your downstairs neighbor asked you to install carpeting over your hardwood floors, you would:”

    I would choose option 5:

    tell them to shut the f up and deal with it – and if they don’t like it, they shouldn’t have bought it in the first place and if they can’t deal with it then they can move. Seriously, if you want to live in the cities, you are going to have to grow up and deal with these kinds of things.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  63. “The trend used to be that you’d be priced out forever.”

    That’s not true, it was a myth at the time, and it wasn’t supported by factual data. however, people leaving for the suburbs is.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  64. abigbeatdownfool on May 5th, 2011 at 11:43 am

    In response to the original question pose — that is, whether vintage is “out” — I think the answer depends on what you mean by out. If you mean, the opposite of trendy, then, no, I don’t think vintage is out. If you mean, buyers are more wary of vintage properties, then I think the answer is “yes” for two primary reasons, both practical and economic, as opposed to, say, stylistic. The first is that vintage is generally going to cost you more to maintain — duh! — either directly or indirectly though higher assessments. The second is that going vintage usually demands you put up with a few quirks (no parking, no a/c, awkward configurations for modern living, useless maid’s rooms, the list goes on…). The problem with quirks is not so much on the front end (b/c you can choose what quirks you can live with) but on the back end (b/c you can never really tell what quirks some hypothetical future buyer can live with). In this market, I don’t think people want to limit the potential pool of buyers on the back end, thus, vintage is out.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  65. You’ll never be priced out of the suburbs–but you will die a slow death.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  66. BTW Suburban High Schools are getting worse by the year–at least in the western burbs.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  67. Depends on the suburb.

    “#Jason on May 5th, 2011 at 11:43 am

    You’ll never be priced out of the suburbs–but you will die a slow death.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  68. Jason, if you set up your kids for success, HS at LPHS won’t be a problem.
    I have a friend who taught science there and there were a couple of troublemakers but plenty of good, high-performing kids. It’s only going to improve in the coming years.
    Currently its performing at the level of an average suburban school (non North Shore), which isn’t bad at all, esp considering how many of those kids are low-income.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  69. “Not all but many, if not most. At least that’s been the trend for many years now. ”

    cheap gas certainly ‘fueled’ the desirability of the suburbs over the last 60 years

    the time of cheap commodities is over, just ask Jeremy Grantham

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  70. “You’ll never be priced out of the suburbs–but you will die a slow death.”

    I’ll second that!

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  71. I like hearing it–but I have a hard time believing it. I always get a little glossy eyed when someone is trying to convince me that LPHS average state scores and below average backgrounds translate into improving with a bullet and I should jump on board. I’d rather have an environment where the troublemakers can be tossed out rather than indirectly influencing everyone else.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  72. “Currently its performing at the level of an average suburban school (non North Shore), which isn’t bad at all, esp considering how many of those kids are low-income.”

    What percent of the enrollment is quasi-selective (IB/double-H)? I know their test-results get rolled together.

    “That’s not true, it was a myth at the time, and it wasn’t supported by factual data.”

    You’re saying that the increases in prices were a myth? That teardowns weren’t selling for over $500k in marginal areas? That was all a bad dream? The trend was the trend; that it was a trend does not mean it was fact, or sustainable, or likely to continue for another day. But it was the trend. Until it wasn’t.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  73. “You’ll never be priced out of the suburbs–but you will die a slow death.”

    I’ll follow that up with another comment…
    This book should be required reading for anyone considering moving to the suburbs: “The Geography of Nowhere: The Rise and Decline of America’s Man-Made Landscape”

    http://www.amazon.com/Geography-Nowhere-Americas-Man-Made-Landscape/dp/0671707744/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1304618136&sr=8-1

    It’s not going to change everyone’s mind, and some people really do need (or think they need) what the suburbs offer over the city, but if they do, they should at least be aware of all the negative effects in order to try to mitigate them, the best they can.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  74. “I always get a little glossy eyed when someone is trying to convince me that LPHS average state scores and below average backgrounds translate into improving with a bullet and I should jump on board.”

    The more neighborhood kids, the less space for out of area transfers. Same principal as the Elementaries.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  75. I hear that short sales almost never transact because the banks are holding out for better prices.

    I am very amused by this, because I’m eyeballing a certain Edgewater unit that was a short sale at a price over TWICE what it is listed at now. It is now an as-is foreclosure. Needless to say, the bank is losing big, on a price one quarter what the place sold for in 2004 or thereabouts.

    If this place is a short sale, look for it be be a foreclosure priced steeply lower in a few months.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  76. “The more neighborhood kids, the less space for out of area transfers. Same principal as the Elementaries.”

    Wel, I have more the 7 years to let other people pioneer that effort–but I don’t think they will–just like I wouldn’t. High School is a different ball game than elementary– The influence of parent involvement drops pretty hard at that point.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  77. gringozecarioca on May 5th, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    nwz… I gotta admit to likin the burbs when i lived in the DC vicinity… Sneakin back up the river to play lunch golf 3 days a week helps.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  78. Jason, what would you consider acceptable for little Jr.?
    If you are high-achieving, its overwhelmingly likely your kid will be too. If you are so worried about your kid attending LPHS that says more about you than LPHS.
    I went to a great high school and there was the stoner crowd that a few kids fell into even though their parents did pretty well. If you think you can insulate your kid from making bad decisions you are wrong.
    I hope to God that this is just a Gen X thing and doesn’t carry into Gen Y, because damn.
    http://www.theawl.com/2010/02/my-baby-my-baby-seems-super-smart-but-im-also-scared-about-my-baby

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  79. To me it is more about expectations and setting grounds for acceptable attitudes. If there are wide variants of expectations, behavior, and attitudes, it just distracts an already high distractable 15 year old. I am not foolish enough to believe I can control him at that age–but I can put him in an environment where he won’t get side-tracked as easily. I would never send him to a Parker–type place either; but an environment where 70% of the population is low-income and carry their own lifetime of distractions and attitudes with them just is not for me.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  80. @annony, I don’t like carpet so I would politely decline, but make sure we wear slippers that don’t make much noise when we walk to be considerate to them. Also make sure kids (it there are any) understand that they cannot run around in an apartment where neighbors down stairs will be bothered.
    If I did not mind putting the carpet, I would potentially ask them to help with 2 but would never ask for money for cleaning. That is just not fair to them.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  81. “BTW Suburban High Schools are getting worse by the year–at least in the western burbs.”

    Really – Hinsdale Central and Naperville Central are doing badly? and how about Hinsdale south, York, Lyons, etc. Seriously – anyone can say anything they want about anything on this site and make it seem as though it is true. Back up your statements you idiot… oh, and stop lying

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  82. lol…I feel the same way : )

    “You’ll never be priced out of the suburbs–but you will die a slow death.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  83. “You’ll never be priced out of the suburbs–but you will die a slow death.”

    I’ll second that!”

    You both sound like Vince Vaugn straight out of Old School. Yeah it was funny…in 2003.

    Vince Vaughn is getting a little too old to play the forever wannabe bachelor with the good glib. As I suspect many CCers are getting little too old to pretend they’re in their recent post-collegiate years living it up in LP.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  84. I am not saying they don’t beat state averages by 20 points…I am saying they are getting more crowded year after year. Besides Naperville just isn’t on my radar because I would rather live in the South Loop than there (seriously)

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  85. “I would never send him to a Parker–type place either; but an environment where 70% of the population is low-income and carry their own lifetime of distractions and attitudes with them just is not for me.”

    One of the frequent rationalizations of poor people is that they reject the system: it makes them think they have more power as they are poor by choice. Keeping you child away from poor people means they are less likely to adapt this paradigm that being successful = bad or not desirable.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  86. “As I suspect many CCers are getting little too old to pretend they’re in their recent post-collegiate years living it up in LP.”–something about sitting in my SUV outside the walmart at 8 pm on Saturday summer evening just does fit my definition of liveable. Sorry if that reflects poorly on my maturity level.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  87. Plenty of SUVs in the city and a Wal-Mart is coming to the LP/LV border. You really aren’t much better, nor more sophisticated, than those suburbanites you eschew.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  88. “nwz… I gotta admit to likin the burbs when i lived in the DC vicinity… Sneakin back up the river to play lunch golf 3 days a week helps.”

    Yeah I agree, in other cities I think the suburbs, while not great, are not the terrible god-awful places to live (and raise children) that the Chicago suburbs are.

    Not that I’m an expert on this (and I didn’t live in the Chicago burbs), but from what I’ve seen, the Chicago suburbs seem to be significantly worse than other cities’ suburbs.

    Personally, I don’t think I’d be completely opposed to living in the suburbs of another city, whereas, with Chicago I absolutely am.

    Can anyone think of another city that has suburbs as bad as Chicago? Maybe Atlanta, GA? I’m not sure…

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  89. http://www.theawl.com/2010/02/my-baby-my-baby-seems-super-smart-but-im-also-scared-about-my-baby

    THAT IS HILARIOUS.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  90. nwzimmer – basically most suburban cities out west are nothing but sprawl and claim jumper restaurants built after 1950 with a lot built during the 1990’s and 2000’s.

    the north shore here has a nice lifestyle, as does some of the farther out suburbs like barrington, long grove, inverness, lake forest, etc. schaumburg, palatine, tinley, all bland and crap. basically larger lots, lots of trees and a little variation in the topograhy lends itself to a nice suburb without as many claim jumper restaurants.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  91. “the Chicago suburbs seem to be significantly worse than other cities’ suburbs. ”

    In what way?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  92. “Plenty of SUVs in the city and a Wal-Mart is coming to the LP/LV border. You really aren’t much better, nor more sophisticated, than those suburbanites you eschew.”–AH yes, but I have options and that makes all the difference. It’s not that I hate SUVs or Walmarts or Suburbanites. I lived in the burbs for 2/3s of my life and found them to be really boring and not offering many options in terms of entertainment, getting around, or lifestyle. So one example: I can take a cab, a bus, a train, or my car, to see live music any night of the week in the city. Can’t do that in Downers Grove, Elmhurst, etc…These types of options make-up what I define as livable and I don’t think that makes me better than anyone. I am better, for other, more obvious reasons than where I choose to live 😉

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  93. “the north shore here has a nice lifestyle, as does some of the farther out suburbs like barrington, long grove, inverness, lake forest, etc. schaumburg, palatine, tinley, all bland and crap. basically larger lots, lots of trees and a little variation in the topograhy lends itself to a nice suburb without as many claim jumper restaurants.”

    That’s good to know; I kind of suspected that the northern suburbs might be better, but wasn’t sure. And yes, I was speaking primarily of the western suburbs. But Shaumburg and Lake Forest, there’re so far away, the commute time alone would be a huge negative.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  94. I think Chicago burbs are some of the nicest I have seen anywhere. A lot of the burbs here (at least the ones that are reasonably desirable) have true down towns, walkable, and access to public transportation a’la metra.

    Most of the burbs outside of the Northeastern cities seem to be just flat out sprawl. No usable down towns, public transportation is non-existent, about the only walking to be done is to the mail box, cookie cutter houses, and nearly dead shopping malls littered with the same chain stores and big box stores found in every state of the union.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  95. “But Shaumburg and Lake Forest, there’re so far away, the commute time alone would be a huge negative.”

    Dunno where else you’ve lived, or I’d make a relevant comparison, but Schaumburg and Lake Forest are similar in only two ways: (1) metro Chicago and (2) suburban employment centers.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  96. Bob, you are free to move to suburbs if that is what you desire. Why cannot you respect that some people would rather trade space for urban living. We are not all the same.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  97. Yeah schaumburg has a lot of younger couples many with children whereas lake forest is older boomers looking to sell their overpriced and out-dated home to those very same younger couples in Schaumburg for 3x what their home in Schaumburg cost.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  98. “Bob, you are free to move to suburbs if that is what you desire. Why cannot you respect that some people would rather trade space for urban living. We are not all the same.”

    HaHaHa! Funny stuff. Of course we aren’t all the same, lest Bob not have anyone to belittle.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  99. “Bob, you are free to move to suburbs if that is what you desire. Why cannot you respect that some people would rather trade space for urban living. We are not all the same.”

    I don’t think the burbs are for me either any time soon. I just get a kick out of the overused cliche of “You die a little more every day”.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  100. if it werent for cc I’d have no idea cabrini was getting a target and lv/lp was getting a walmart. btw, chick filet is opening on chicago off mich ave. that is my contribution. it is also the first adition to the area I am happy about, last 6 yrs have been nothing but subtractions that made me sad.

    if you get off the expressways and find the original downtowns of the suburbs, they are pretty nice. not stripmally, die a slow death at all.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  101. “btw, chick filet is opening on chicago off mich ave. that is my contribution.”

    It will be hilarious to see the suburbanites who camp out before these things open for the year of free food attempt to claimjump the bums who should be the rightful beneficiaries of such a promotion.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  102. I just get a kick out of the overused cliche of “You die a little more every day”.–to me this is not cliche. In fact it gains more meaning the longer you live in the burbs, so to me, it is far from cliche and really not overused enough based on the number of people you feel the city the moment they feel they have outgrown college. I mean really, is it that hard to define some other way of living than I am 32 time to move to the burbs. Try Harder! Unless you like mowing lawns, and talking to other people (who feel that because they live 50 yards from you, you should be on a first name basis) about mowing lawns.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  103. “Also make sure kids (it there are any) understand that they cannot run around in an apartment where neighbors down stairs will be bothered.”

    miumiu, you’re about to have a kid, right (again, congrats!)? I’d be curious to check in with you in a couple of years, to see if you still think you would, let alone could, make sure that your kid doesn’t run around.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  104. *who flee*

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  105. There are various degrees of “suburbs”. From places like Evanston and Oak Park which are really only technically suburbs and very much urban and have CTA rail lines all the way out to far exurbs like Huntley.

    Look at the lifestyle in Park Ridge vs. Edison Park and try to tell me there is a significant difference, despite one not having a Chicago proper address.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  106. there is a strong contingent of bums in the area, hopefully the news crews cover this battle for free chikin

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  107. “BTW Suburban High Schools are getting worse by the year–at least in the western burbs.”

    No comment from me, we’re not discussing immigration.

    “the time of cheap commodities is over, just ask Jeremy Grantham”

    commodity bubble crashing this week, it’s deflation now, bitchez!

    nwz: those books are always interesting to ponder, but the free market still values the automobile and the Houston-type urban model, this is evident in the new Target that’s going to be built at Cabrini with a nice big parking lot for SUVs.

    “You’ll never be priced out of the suburbs–but you will die a slow death.”

    Flipside of this is the ‘Bowling Alone’ (Robert Putnam) phenomenon in diverse and polyglot urban areas where social cohesion and trust drops dramatically.

    “Not that I’m an expert on this (and I didn’t live in the Chicago burbs), but from what I’ve seen, the Chicago suburbs seem to be significantly worse than other cities’ suburbs.”

    I agree. I don’t know how Russ can say the East Coast suburbs are worse, imho they have much more charm, and Chicago’s suburbs are all flat boring-endless-grid, or tract housing and flat cookie-cutter subdivisions for the most part.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  108. In case anyone really wants an updated on LPHS –

    LPHS is currently about 2/3 kids from out of district (enrolled in IB, AP/HH or performing arts) and 1/3 from within the district (and may or may not be enrolled in IB, AP/HH or performing arts). Ten years ago, most of the neighborhood kids came from Schiller, Jenner, and Manierre, which were low-performing schools. Historically, the graduates of these schools were enrolled in the “neighborhood” program classes, which were nearly remedial in nature. However, Schiller was closed years ago, and due to changes in housing stock south of North Avenue, there are only half as many kids enrolled in Jenner and Manierre, nowadays, so each school is only sending a few dozen kids to LPHS each year.

    In the mean time, Lincoln and Ogden used to send only a low percent of kids to LPHS; basically, those who didn’t get into a selective enrollment HS. Now there are kids from Lincoln and Alcott choosing LPHS over the SEHS (as well as passing over guaranteed spots at Alcott HS) due to convenience and the fact that their friends are going to LPHS – a network effect of students. (This may be true at Ogden as well, but I don’t know first hand.) Starting in three years, neighborhood kids from Mayer and Agassiz graduates will join. So LPHS has truly become a school of choice for neighborhood kids in the last few years. I hope that Lake View follows that route, but I can tell you it took LPHS 50 years to get to this point.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  109. “One of the frequent rationalizations of poor people…”
    Thanks for the sociology lesson Bob! We really should isolate them like lepers, lest they spread amongst us and infect our babies!

    “I don’t think the burbs are for me either any time soon.”
    Oh, poor Bob, happy nowhere except, perhaps, on ZeroHedge with the other day traders.

    P.S. I get a kick out of the overused cliches “get a kick out of” and “overused cliche.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  110. Jason – I realize how terrifying the thought of the possibility of having your kid learn who Gucci Mane is, but if a 15 year old is distractible, they will be distracted even if you put them in a ‘better environment’ away from The Poors and Other Undesirables (and surely you realize how Goldilocks you’re sounding right now, but I’m sure its worth it because kids have an *extremely narrow* margin of error in which they can succeed!).

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  111. Don’t forget that throughout much of history cities were dirty, disease filled places, and anyone with any money or clout had an estate or villa in the countryside. This US urban utopia lifestyle is a fairly recent phenomenon that arises from younger educated folks getting married later in life and reliving college.

    The suburbs now are much different, more diverse places than even as little as 15 years ago when I lived out there. Take a walk around Woodfield mall (the largest in the world at the time it was built) and look at the diversity that wasn’t present during the 1990’s. I mentioned a few weeks ago that I went to a friend’s birthday party on a sat night at a bowling alley about a 5 minute drive from where I grew up and it was, as Dan describes, a polygut of different cultures and races all doing the cosmic bowling thing.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  112. gcoa–Perhaps I am over-reacting. I will let you know in 10 years. Just want what is best, and I will judge his level of maturity, leadership ability, and other factors, as well as the school.– ALways looking for “just right”. Worst case: all the money I am saving for Private High School can buy me a boat. PS I have nothing against poor people. Thanks for the insight.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  113. “The suburbs now are much different, more diverse places than even as little as 15 years ago when I lived out there.”

    I dunno, some of the fancier burbs don’t feel that diverse to me (someone posted stats a while ago), and especially not in the country club (which I realize is a not a straight comparison).

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  114. “Don’t forget that throughout much of history cities were dirty, disease filled places, and anyone with any money or clout had an estate or villa in the countryside. This US urban utopia lifestyle is a fairly recent phenomenon that arises from younger educated folks getting married later in life and reliving college.”

    That’s an interesting perspective, one that I think maybe sees the past 10-15 years of urban renewal as an aberration.

    I tend to see it as the 1950’s-1990’s were the aberration, with rampant suburban sprawl, and people ‘automatically’ thinking they had to move to the suburbs as soon as they turn 28 or 30, or, if they have a baby, even earlier.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  115. Fashionista on May 5th, 2011 at 2:01 pm

    Correct me if I’m wrong – but my understanding of Chicago history tells me that LPHS was once a “low performing” high school named Waller (fictionalized as “Cooley High” in the 1970s movie of that name). As Lincoln Park started to “gentrify” in the early 1980s, parents and other concerned citizens started a campaign to “turn around” Waller and make it more responsive to the needs of the kids who were already there, plus make it an attractive place for middle-class parent to send their kids to. It was the precurser of the Nettlehorst turn-around.

    So now, some thirty years later, LPHS is not a “preferred” alternative for Lincoln Park families even though LP is firmly middle-class and the “troubled” kids from Cabrini-Green are no longer around for obvious reasons?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  116. HomeDelete–This is all very interesting stuff. If taken to the extreme the cities will revert back to the walled-off medevial sanctuaries of culture politics and economics. Which makes sense based on supply and demand coupled with oil.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  117. Jason,
    Ah yes, I am sorry, you have nothing against The Poors per se, you just can’t stand their infectious “behavior… distractions and attitudes.”
    Sorry to have been so blunt – I live for nuance, and I should have seen that distinction!

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  118. Fashionista, you are correct, as is Michelle.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  119. GCOA– I call it like I see it. It’s not a class war thing with me. I don’t view them as anything less or more than other people. I have no control over the actions of others, but if they want to prioritize poverty culture over high school I want no part of that influence. Not everyone does this, but some do, and for some reason a 15 year old might find this cooler say Calc. (or maybe they are just no good at calc) I will report back in a decade and let you know.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  120. Bob is correct – once people start realizing that they don’t go to all the places in the city they used to go to (because of kids/job), they start becoming increasingly irritated at the expense and inconvenience of living in the city compared to the suburbs. I see it everyday – and although you guys don’t think it will ever happen to you – believe me it WILL. Think about it – why would you want to live in the city if you no longer go to the places that make the city a great place to live?!

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  121. Many of chicago’s neighborhoods were first suburbs or bedroom communities as families tried to escape the dirt, grime and disease the boatloads of immigrants brought as they settled in the urban areas. Even the worker’s cottages we lament were outside of the industrial areas and the blocks upon blocks of tenement housing for the FOBs. Lake forest is a great example of a small wealthy community far outside the city yet still connected to Chicago.

    Finally, in the 1950’s, for the first time, the interstates opened up the farmfields to the masses who could buy cheaply built homes on lots larger than 25×125. Sprawl continued with cheap oil and a seemingly limitless amount of land on which to build. It was the trend of thousands of years amplified by cheap oil, automobiles and a generation of baby boomer children.

    Only in the last 20 or 30 yeras has this idea of urban renaissance come about as post-college singles got jobs in city centers and looked to continue teh college experience. That’s oversimplifying it a bit but 30 years ago LP and LV would be unrecognizable as it is today.

    “I tend to see it as the 1950’s-1990’s were the aberration, with rampant suburban sprawl, and people ‘automatically’ thinking they had to move to the suburbs as soon as they turn 28 or 30, or, if they have a baby, even earlier.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  122. “Think about it – why would you want to live in the city if you no longer go to the places that make the city a great place to live?!”

    You’re right, Clio. But why are children the reason for no longer going to such places?

    Me, I now FREQUENT the places that make the city a great place to live because I have a kid.

    Perhaps we need to establish what exactly the places are that make the city a great place to live.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  123. “So now, some thirty years later, LPHS is not a “preferred” alternative for Lincoln Park families even though LP is firmly middle-class and the “troubled” kids from Cabrini-Green are no longer around for obvious reasons?”

    I’m not sure what you mean by that. Obviously, there are parents and kids in LP and elsewhere who choose private high schools or selective enrollment high schools (or a move to the suburbs) for many reasons. All I’m saying is that for parents who are already sending their kids to the local public elementary schools, LPHS is no longer seen as a “loser” school, but a good, safe school in which a kids can get a solid education and have a balanced life (i.e. short commute, lots of friends nearby, a multitude of sports/activities, opportunity to enroll in some advanced classes but not all, etc). It hasn’t always been like this.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  124. Clio,

    Like Museums, Street-Fests, Theatres, The Lake, etc? There some intangibles like people watching, architechture, history, etc. And BTW, the biggest earners in the suburban strip malls are the sports bars that all the local 45 year olds sneak away to–and so unless you intend to stop drinking at 35, again I prefer the variety the city provides (and the public transit).

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  125. Good point Michelle.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  126. Everyone here has good points regarding the city vs suburbs – but let me tell you that once your wife sees what kind of house she can live in for the same price and the safe backyard in which the kids can play, you are going to be moving to the suburbs. I know that sounds extremely sexist of me, but it’s true – maybe it is the marternal hormones or something but it happened to each and every single one of my friends.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  127. “Me, I now FREQUENT the places that make the city a great place to live because I have a kid.

    Perhaps we need to establish what exactly the places are that make the city a great place to live.”

    With kids, you visit AD NAUSEAUM for 10 years: zoo, beach, nature museum, aquarium, Field Museum, MSI. With kids, for 10 years, you don’t see the inside of Symphony Center, Second City, Steppenwolf, Old Town School of Folk Music, Martyr’s, Phyllis’ Musical Inn, and your local Cineplex.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  128. “With kids, for 10 years, you don’t see the inside of Symphony Center, Second City, Steppenwolf, Old Town School of Folk Music, Martyr’s, Phyllis’ Musical Inn, and your local Cineplex.”–Burbs or no burbs you get a sitter or you should to save your sanity. The point being in the problems of domestic lifeare the same city or burbs–but in the city the escapes are more readily avialable and possible. In the burbs you can’t get a sitter, drive into the city have four drinks, enjoy a show and dinner with friends or whatever and be home by midnight. Suburban living makes people crazy–that’s my story and I am sticking to it.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  129. more good points, michelle..

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  130. Or you occassionally hire a baby sitter; or, after year 10, you begin to reintegrate the more adult cultural activities.

    p.s. The only time I’ve been in the Old Town School of Folk Music was for a kid-related event (Halloween concert).

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  131. “The point being in the problems of domestic lifeare the same city or burbs–but in the city the escapes are more readily avialable and possible.”

    And that, combined with the shorter work commute times, pretty much sums it up.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  132. Fashionista…Waller was the name of LPHS in the seventies. But the movie was based on Cooley High School which was located on the northeast corner of Division & Sedgwick, close to the old Oscar Mayer plant…both were torn down years ago. Thanks to Michelle for an informed, factual statement on LPHS….She knows the schools as well as the neighborhood.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  133. OTS rocks for adults. Take a class! For real.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  134. “OTS rocks for adults. Take a class! For real.”

    Obviously you don’t have a spouse/kids/demanding job and are probably under 40. I am telling you – everything changes- just wait and see……

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  135. What about the movie “My Bodyguard” with matt dillion? What school was that? Latin?

    What an awesome movie and it’s about Chicago/Gold Coast before yuppies, before gentrification, etc. It was a glimpse into city living for all suburbanites in the very early 1980’s. It has an awesome scene of the old Maxwell Street, that’s probably the only version of it on color film that that anywhere.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  136. In the GZ at night there are drunks and predators roaming the streets;
    Outside the GZ at night there are roving banks of gangbangers and teenagers roaming the streets looking for trouble;
    Ihe suburbs the parents are at home, the kids are in the basement or at the local denny’s; and there’s just a lot less trouble on the streets.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  137. “What about the movie “My Bodyguard” with matt dillion? What school was that? Latin?”

    I think you are mistaking Matt dillon for whitney houston.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  138. “In the GZ at night there are drunks and predators roaming the streets;”

    Stop calling me names, HD!!!!

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  139. gringozecarioca on May 5th, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    please.. All.. Continue…. Not having had kids, i am enjoying reading all this.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  140. “In the GZ at night there are drunks and predators roaming the streets;
    Outside the GZ at night there are roving banks of gangbangers and teenagers roaming the streets looking for trouble;”

    And where are you looking to live?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  141. The suburbs at night are quiet–very good point, you can walk around at midnight and not see a soul. Clio Married for 7 years, have one child, and am under 40. Trying to keep a balance. Suburbs don’t work for living.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  142. “Ihe suburbs the parents are at home, the kids are in the basement or at the local denny’s”

    Good grief HD, where are you from? I can assure you that it wasn’t like that when I was a teen in the burbs in the mid to late 80’s. I don’t think we were ever in the local Denny’s earlier than midnight or 1 a.m. And suburban basements are notorious dens of debauchery.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  143. “And suburban basements are notorious dens of debauchery.”–LOL so true.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  144. you still go to rock shows during the week Jason? hats off to you. I make it to maybe 1 per year.

    My Bodyguard (as opposed to whitney’s the bodyguard” featured lakeview hs. I dont remember the maxwell steet seen. maybe that was blues bros?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  145. I’ve been known to find my way to the empty bottle. You need a good group though–that gets tougher city or burbs…easier in the city though.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  146. CH: but wasn’t Martin Mull the dad and they lived at the Ambassador East? That movie was about the Gold Coast and it had scenes in Lincoln Park. Maybe the school filmed was Lakeview, but the movie was set in the Gold Coast, not Lake View. The big dude, the “bodyguard” guy (same actor as the guy in Full Metal Jacket),who stood up to the bully (matt dillion), the bodyguard-big-silent-guy had a scene where he wandered through the old Maxwell Street area in a big funk. I’m positive about that.

    All CC’ers who’ve never seen it, should definitely get it from netflix, it shows the GZ as it existed in 1980 in full color film!

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  147. Dan, I saw the movie. I remember the scene where the bodyguard guy picked up his motorcycle and threw into the pond in Lincoln Park. Being from the south, I was fascinated by the city living portrayed in the movie. Chicago definitely looked much more gritty and gray in that movie than what we have now…

    Kind of like looking at old movies that took place in NYC in the early 80s. Totally different world versus NYC today. All the gritty areas (meat packing district, hell’s kitchen, etc) are all completely gentrified. Other than some parts of Harlem and maybe Chinatown, I don’t think there is a single “bad” neighborhood in NYC at this point.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  148. Loved that movie. Did Dillon push his motorcycle into the north pond? The south pond? For some reason I recall (or assumed) it being set in NYC, but that was before I had lived in either city.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  149. OK, since we’re talking about CPS high schools in the media:

    There’s a newish Disney channel show for tweens on called Shake It Up that is set in Chicago, and they use shots of the outside of LPHS as their high school. This has raised the “cool” factor of LPHS to my own tween exponentially.

    Also, I’m probably the last person in Chicago to know this, but the two guys who wrote Grease went to Taft HS in the 1950s and based their play on their experiences there. It was given the Hollywood treatment before the movie came out in 1978, but the original play is now playing, complete with original songs like “Foster Avenue Beach” instead of “Summertime.” Time Out Chicago did a good article on this.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  150. “It has an awesome scene of the old Maxwell Street, that’s probably the only version of it on color film that that anywhere.”

    I haven’t seen it in ages, but ‘Blues Brothers’ had a good Maxwell St. scene I thought… Wiki also tells me they used in ‘Child’s Play’ (I know, WTF right?) Also, from Wiki: the police station at Maxwell and Morgan Streets, was “Hill Street Station” in ‘Hill Street Blues.’ (I think it’s now used by UIC police?)

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  151. “I haven’t seen it in ages, but ‘Blues Brothers’ had a good Maxwell St. scene I thought”

    John Lee Hooker playing.

    And Aretha’s scene was set-but not filmed-there.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  152. “And Aretha’s scene was set-but not filmed-there.”
    Gotcha.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  153. Let’s go further back to 1964 Maxwell Street. Most City born boomers will tell you this is how they remember the market.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oypAbJj-fEs

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  154. I used to be a kid and we lived at some point of time in 2 floor house on the top. We used to play in the yard and were absolutely forbidden to run in the house.
    I agree that it is tough but it is also very selfish to ruin quality of life of one’s neighbors because ones kids are using the sofa as jumping board, unless of course you are Clio who thinks the neighbors should move : )

    “miumiu, you’re about to have a kid, right (again, congrats!)? I’d be curious to check in with you in a couple of years, to see if you still think you would, let alone could, make sure that your kid doesn’t run around.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  155. Ze, aren’t you living the high life, Brazilian wife and no kids. I wish I had met someone like you. Every guy I ever dated started with saying he did not want kids and then they reach 35 and go nuts…lol

    “please.. All.. Continue…. Not having had kids, i am enjoying reading all this.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  156. “Every guy I ever dated started with saying he did not want kids and then they reach 35 and go nuts…lol”

    You dated a series of 33/34 year old men? And then married the one who was already 35, so at least he didn’t change his mind?

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  157. BTW, we always end up on this suburb vs city debate. Definitely many people move to burbs after having kids but also many stay in the city and raise their kids, otherwise who is attending the elementary schools in the city? Also some move back to the city once the kids move out. Most of our friends who have young children still live in the city, I am curious to see what happens as kids get older and start going to school. But also most of them are first generation immigrants or mixed couple (one is none American born) so I might have as skewed sample.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  158. “Definitely many people move to burbs after having kids but also many stay in the city and raise their kids, otherwise who is attending the elementary schools in the city?”

    It’s more than a bit different now, but for 30-40 years, with the exception of a bare handful of schools, the kids attending CPS Elems were poor(-ish) and/or city workers who couldn’t move, but most of the city worker kids went to catholic schools. Latin/Parker obvious exceptions, but otherwise, if you could afford a house in (suburb X), you moved there for the schools.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  159. lol… you are funny anon. Nope, I was being funny mostly : )
    But seriously dated a 29 year old (short term) which didn’t work out but wanted to have kids soon, 31 year old (long term) who wanted kids pretty early on but then went nuts as time progressed. Dated (long term) and married one who was anti kids and then started scaring me that I would regret it and …. and was not willing to adopt hence the situation : ) Then there were some more causal ones who after couple of dates started bringing up kids. Believe me, I even dated a 26 year old who was in grad school and then he started talking kids! I think people here are very kid loving.

    “You dated a series of 33/34 year old men? And then married the one who was already 35, so at least he didn’t change his mind?”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  160. OK, I stand corrected about Waller and Cooley high schools. Yes, I knew about Taft being the original locale of “Grease.” The song in the movie is “Summer Lovin’,” not “Summertime.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  161. Oops – “Summer Nights.”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  162. Tell me more

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  163. dan, you are correct. they lived in ambassador east. but the hs used was lvhs. jennifer beal and joanie cusack have small parts in the film.

    Cooley high has a lot of old chicago in it too. havent seen it for a decade but I remember being fascinated by the places i semi-recognized. Also the start of good times has a few good shots.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  164. miumiu, that story of dates bringing up kids is strange. maybe you reminded them of their mothers. or maybe you are just such a genetic prize their mouths couldnt keep back what their loins were telling them.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  165. I think it is the mother part. My dad tells me that I am like an old British lady with my love of tea, bridge, fire places and cats : )

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  166. “Other than some parts of Harlem and maybe Chinatown, I don’t think there is a single “bad” neighborhood in NYC at this point.”

    In Manhattan–Morningside Heights? In the other boroughs I’m sure there are rough areas in Brooklyn, the Bronx & Queens. Then again for a city it’s size NYC seems to have a very low murder rate, maybe this includes other crime as well.

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  167. “Also the start of good times has a few good shots.”

    I was at the Double Door years ago when the alternative rock scene was going strong (ps I saw Nirvana at Aragon), and at the Double Door this band from Santa Barbara played the TV theme to “Good Times” in hard rock esp. for the Chicago audience. It was really cool. “temporary layoffs, good times, scratchin’ and survivin’….”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  168. Wow that must have been great.

    “I saw Nirvana at Aragon”

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  169. A QUESTION FOR G AND HD:
    I have been a reluctant commenter and frequent voyeur on this website for a few years. Can you tell me what the outstanding debt is on this property? I think it is $500,000, but it could be in two notes. If so, does that make a difference?
    Can you also comment on why the bank might not accept $425,000 and take the loss rather than wait for a foreclosure? I believe the owner is not in arrears.
    Thx

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  170. “Can you tell me what the outstanding debt is on this property?”

    No one here can; only the borrower and the bank know the actual outstanding debt.

    “I think it is $500,000, but it could be in two notes.”

    Face amount of the only outstanding mortgage is $540k, for the first mortgage from Sep-05. The refi’d 2d was released in April.

    “Can you also comment on why the bank might not accept $425,000 and take the loss rather than wait for a foreclosure?”

    3 most likely reasons:

    1. belief market is coming back
    2. no incentive for the asset manager to approve loss in short sale
    3. smoothing of losses from quarter to quarter (ie, maybe they’d approve the short sale in the *next* quarter).

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)
  171. Thanks so much–your information is really helpful!

    VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
    Rating: 0 (from 0 votes)

Leave a Reply