3-Bedroom Short Sale in “Dream Building” Sells: 2120 N. Lincoln Park West In Lincoln Park

We last chattered about this 3-bedroom which was a short sale at 2120 N. Lincoln Park West in Lincoln Park in March 2011.

2120-n-lincoln-park-west-approved.jpg

See our prior chatter here.

At that time, several of you were in love with this building, calling it your “dream building.”

Some of you also thought this would sell quickly given its location.

It finally sold for $500,000 below the March list price, but still $140,000 above the 2002 purchase price.

On a street known for some of its vintage buildings, this 11 unit building was constructed relatively recently-  in 2000.

The building is directly on Lincoln Park and has lake and city views.

The full floor unit had its own private elevator entrance.

It had 2 east facing balconies and 2-car garage parking.

The kitchen had stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops.

The listing called this a “rare, amazing opportunity.”

The last sale in the building was Unit #8 in June 2010. It was also a 3/3.5 and sold for $2.6 million.

You can see pictures of Unit #8 here.

Did someone get a deal?

Katherine Dolan at Jameson Sotheby’s had the listing. You can still see the interior pictures here.

Unit #12: 3 bedrooms, 3.5 baths, 3200 square feet

  • Sold in February 2000 for $1.285 million
  • Originally listed in September 2009 for $2,695,000
  • Withdrawn
  • Was listed in August 2010 for $2,299,900
  • Reduced
  • Was listed in March 2011 as a “short sale” for $1.925 million
  • Sold in August 2011 for $1.425 million
  • Assessments of $2826 a month (includes heat, a/c, gas)
  • Taxes of $34,592
  • Central Air
  • Washer/Dryer in the Unit
  • 2-car garage parking included
  • Bedroom #1: 15×14
  • Bedroom #2: 14×12
  • Bedroom #3: 15×12
  • Library: 18×15

294 Responses to “3-Bedroom Short Sale in “Dream Building” Sells: 2120 N. Lincoln Park West In Lincoln Park”

  1. I love the place and it looks like a good deal, until you see the taxes and assessment. But I suppose if you can afford over $1 million, those things aren’t going to be a barrier.

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  2. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 8:42 am

    no.. Buyer should have bid 1.8… Wouldn’t want to insult with a lowball offer…

    Hand HD a towel to wipe the egg off his face… That is just egg?

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  3. “Did someone get a deal?”

    Yes.

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  4. “no.. Buyer should have bid 1.8… Wouldn’t want to insult with a lowball offer…

    Hand HD a towel to wipe the egg off his face… That is just egg?”

    yeah listen to clio he’ll make you rich rich rich!

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  5. “no.. Buyer should have bid 1.8… Wouldn’t want to insult with a lowball offer… ”

    It’s not the sellers you need to worry about, it’s the cartel (of 4) that runs all real estate transactions in the ‘hood. They’ve never heard of RICO.

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  6. 3200 sq feet in fairly new construction with private elevator and uninstructed views. 1.4, wow. Would have not expected it. Just a sign of the lux market folks.

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  7. wait wait wait – I must live in “bizarro opposite world”. I think this place is ridiculously ugly – but more importantly, to be paying ALMOST 6 (SIX) thousand dollars/month BEFORE mortgage payments is insane. There are SO SO SO SO MANY better properties out there for a similar (even much smaller) monthly payment. More importantly, the 6 (SIX) thousand dollar amount is going to keep GROWING and NONE of it goes away (unlike principal payment). Who are the people who bought this place (and why can’t I meet more people like them?!!!). I have so much I could sell them!!!!

    Seriously, though, the buyers are severely screwed and they won’t even realize for a few more years. Unbelievable.

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  8. Just saw assessments and taxes. Now the 1.4 makes sense.

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  9. I could list 5 properties off the top of my head (in the Gold Coast/lincoln park) that cost the same (in monthly payment) and would blow this place away. In addition, the places that I am thinking about would be worth WAY more in 2020 than this piece of crap.

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  10. Ok, list them. I’m curious.

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  11. BEHIND EVERY MILLION DOLLAR HOME IS A MILLION DOLLAR MORTGAGE

    Executed Recorded Document Type Amount
    08/11/2011 08/17/2011 MORTGAGE $1,000,000.00

    YES I UNDERSTAND THERE IS A LARGE DOWN PAYMENT BUT IS IRRELEVANT TO MY POPULARIZED CATCHPHRASE “BEHIND EVERY MILLION DOLLAR HOME IS A MILLION DOLLAR MORTGAGE” BECAUSE IT IS TRUE.

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  12. I think it is not that great looking of a place and carrying costs are crazy.

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  13. its an inflation hedge, HD I’m fairly certain the person buying this place probably could pay all cash if they wanted

    most savvy investorts are doing it and you gotta stay diversified!

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  14. Riz

    #1

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/100-E-Huron-St-60611/unit-4202/home/14099755

    take the extra 400-500k and upgrade the whole place (to get a similar price). My property is still much cheaper (on a monthly basis).

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  15. Wow. 1 mil mortgage? I’d think with those pre-mortgage costs the buyer would have paid off at least half to start. Then again, mortgage + tax + assessment = 13 grand a month or so? Not completely ridiculous.. Is it? My attending is leasing a 1800 sq ft unit at trump for 8 grand a month and it’s not as classy of a locale or nearly as much space.

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  16. Clio , I dig that listing. Some may hate on chicago place now that the mall is empty..but the location and views are pretty awesome.

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  17. Riz,

    #2

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/220-E-Walton-Pl-60611/unit-11E/home/14119559

    Offer 1 million – and do a 400k renovation and this place is worth WAY WAY more than the subject property (yes, sabrina already showcased this property) and I was in negotiations to buy it 2.5 years ago – when the owners were reluctant to take 2 million – thank god I dodged a bullet then1!!!!)

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  18. HD, if I had $400k to put down, and could swing the $12k/mo or so of loan/fee/tax payments, that is exactly what I would do (that is, were this place still available).

    Clio or anyone else having a hard time understanding why someone would buy in this building as opposed to many others, well, see the most recent in-building comp. The buyer of this unit got a steal.

    p.s., Were I given the choice between two identical units for the same price, one being on ELSD and the other being situated where this building stands, it would be a no-brainer.

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  19. Riz,

    #3

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/210-E-Walton-Pl-60611/unit-E/home/14121115

    Totally different style – but I love this place – also much cheaper assm/taxes

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  20. Good grief. I’d live on ELSD before I’d live on east Huron or Walton. That’s a nice area in which to stay in hotels (or have an in town), shop or occasionally eat…not live.

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  21. Riz

    #4

    Ridiculously great deal – the deal of the century

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/25-E-Division-St-60610/home/14123808

    Sure the location could be a bit loud – but the cost is nothing – you could live here for free (by renting out 3 of the units)

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  22. I’m just saying that leverage really jacks up the price when you start taking out million dollar mortgages. THIS is undeniable.

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  23. Riz,

    #5

    similar monthly costs – but a much much much more exclusive location:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/999-N-Lake-Shore-Dr-60611/unit-2-A/home/17454787

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  24. clio you are being extra douchey lately, whats wrong is business really that slow?

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  25. Riz,

    #6

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/51-E-Elm-St-60611/home/14123603

    The list just goes on and on and on and on – seriously, this took me 10 minutes. If I really looked through all the listings, I could come up with over 100 better places for the money.

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  26. “My property (100 east Huron) is still much cheaper (on a monthly basis).”

    Assessments/Association Dues: $3,147
    Tax: $29,521.37 (/ 12 = $2,460)

    =

    $5,707/month

    vs.

    •Assessments of $2826 a month
    •Taxes of $34,592 (/12 = $2,882/month)

    = $5,708/month

    Yep, that $1.00 is a *really* big deal.

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  27. “I’m just saying that leverage really jacks up the price when you start taking out million dollar mortgages. THIS is undeniable.”

    what if the buyer has $5-xx million in assets? is
    2-1 leverage on a place to live really that bad when rates are at 50 year historical lows with a minor tax benefit?

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  28. What if the guy is a bizillionaire? What if he spent all his non retirement assets on the down payment? How is any of this relevant. The fact of the matter is that there is a million dollar mortgage against this million dollar property. The interest on that is probably thousands of dollars a month. Maybe the buyer is going through a mid-life crisis and bought a 1.5 mil bachelor pad that eats up a good chunk of his income to avoid paying his wife. who really knows, or cares? All that matters is the 1,000,000 mortgage on a 1,400,000 property.

    “Sonies on August 25th, 2011 at 9:15 am

    “I’m just saying that leverage really jacks up the price when you start taking out million dollar mortgages. THIS is undeniable.”

    what if the buyer has $5-xx million in assets? is
    2-1 leverage on a place to live really that bad when rates are at 50 year historical lows with a minor tax benefit?”

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  29. no it doesn’t really matter, you always say we need to pay 20% down, well when its 30% down you are complaining about overleveraging?

    if we all paid cash for stuff obviously housing and everything else would be cheaper but that hasn’t existed for about a century and it will NEVER happen again

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  30. HD – totally agree with you. I am in a similar situation w/ millions in assets but a significantly declining income and significantly increasing expenses (tuition alone this year for the two brats is nearly 80k)!!! In addition, the stock market is doing poorly and I am heavily invested in it. So basically people like me (and there are thousands of them have a few choices):

    1. Hang on for however long the cash lasts (0-20 months maybe – talking about others in my situation – also remember that we have been taking losses now for 3 years and our cash/liquid reserves are drying up).

    2. Start selling the easy sellable things (ie lambo)

    3. Cut back on luxury items (likely not gonna happen).

    4. Start selling at a loss.

    It’s a bad situation – but people don’t understand. They say things like “but you have millions in assets” without realizing that you need cash to live.

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  31. Clio. Thought you’d have more cash in the bank. My old man lost a ton on the market recently.. But he’s always held fast that after making the first few million, always keep at least 5 mil someplace safe and uninvested, and play with the rest. Then again, it’s all proportional. Everyone tells me to invest the trust fund cash more aggressively.. But what’s the point? It sits pretty , doesn’t gain or lose much, whereas real-estate and stock investors are losing their pants.

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  32. “In addition, the stock market is doing poorly and I am heavily invested in it.”

    Stock market up 10% over the last 52 weeks. What more do you expect?

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  33. Riz, I’m not so sure an immigrant doctor could have made so much in such a short period of time. Regardless, I am still pretty young (early 40s) and started out with nothing. Everyone (all financial advisors) told me to be aggressive (investment wise) since i was so young and had a stable job. They were right – but only “morons” kept over 500k in cash in the early 2000s (why would you when you could be making much more with it – you were made to feel like a fool). And even 500k, after 3 years dwindles down to nearly nothing when you have huge expenses.

    Also, I am skeptical that anyone (unless they have a net worth of over 30 million) has 5 million in cash. No financial advisor would “allow” that!!!

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  34. clio you need an advisor badly as you have no perspective on how to manage your own assets properly

    I always ask people like you the question

    “can you use scissors?”

    everyone always answers, “yes”

    then I ask, “would you cut your wife’s hair with them?”

    everyone always laughs, man i’m funny, then I give them a serious face and explain to them why

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  35. so basically clio likes streeterville and doesn’t like lincoln park. we already knew that, thank you for wasting our time

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  36. Is anyone surprised that a doctor would make bad investments and piss a good chunk of his money away?

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  37. no not really hd, they are of the “know it all” breed, most lawyers fall under that umbrella too

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  38. Clio,
    I agree with Sonies…. you need to help. I have a couple of friends/ family that were in a situation similar to yours. One didn’t change his lifestyle thought his CEO salary would return and it never did. He kept the house and his spending habits, now he has nothing but the house, and retirement for him is not an option. He is still in denial and I really fear for his future.

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  39. Clio, you conflict yourself so much. You are from a wealthy family and ivy league background, but then you started with nothing. You are in your early 40s? There is no way a geriatrician can make millions in 14 or so years without a big chunk of start up cash from somewhere else.

    What does immigrant have to do with anything? Is that a masked quip of some sort? My old man is 56 and owns a anesthesia group and pain group contracting across 3 states. His real-estate portfolio isn’t full of devalued luxury condos..his commission from hospital contracts on his groups the past 5 years was enough to save that amount – that’s without even working. His financial advisor is fanastic and supported his decision to maintain a percentage of his yearly contracts in savings. He has more than 5 mil of cash in the bank- and as far as net worth, I won’t comment on it.,but I’m not buying 100k porsches on a resident salary. Please stop assuming you’re the only one with money – it’s always those with something to prove that brag the most. I won’t comment on my parents financial
    situation further, but I assure you, those with *real* money always have more than 5 mil liquid, and if you don’t, well, no more comments.

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  40. Clio,
    I agree with Sonies…. you need help. I have a couple of friends/ family that were in a situation similar to yours. One didn’t change his lifestyle thought his CEO salary would return and it never did. He kept the house and his spending habits, now he has nothing but the house, and retirement for him is not an option. He is still in denial and I really fear for his future.

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  41. PS. As opposed to some who brag with no backup, im always game to back myself up. Clio still owes me a track race , f-430 vs his gallardo. I’ll bring my carrera 4 just for kicks.

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  42. Clio you sound like that UC Prof who opined in an Op-Ed that 200k income is not a lot of money. He surprisingly didn’t find a significant audience.

    Sonies never again in all caps? You are making the mistake economic tools make in assuming economics is a science and immutable like the laws of physics ( a real science). Lebowski summed up economics quite well in five words: “that’s like, your opinion, man”. Also you are completely discounting history with such a dismissal. Numerous examples of hyperinflation in the 20th century & even high inflation here. In high inflation times credit availability tanks because its so damn hard to price the risk. At least with fixed rates.

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  43. PPS, clio, If you started with nothing , how did you make millions I’m Boston in the 90s? You would have been in your early 20s and not even a doc yet- still at an ivy med school somewhere, or in a residency program. The earliest you would have got in tr game is at the age of 30…roughly around 98-99? No way you’d have anything to invest by 2000 on a geriatrics crap salary.

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  44. “a geriatrician”

    I think you are reading that too narrowly.

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  45. riz finally figures out Clio is a fictional cartoon character lol

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  46. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 10:34 am

    I like Riz showing up after his non-materialistic speech and bringing back the memories of private trips to Maranello.

    I’m sorry. Sonies is correct. Knowing just how much debt a guy has on a place tells you nada about their overall position.

    “They’ve never heard of RICO.” Was a much scarier word to me prior to realizing, I could just remove a letter to resolve it. (in deference to ya: not placing in super smiley – wise ass emoticon)

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  47. Riz,

    no offense meant at all. I swam a few laps and am a little clearer as to what I was trying to say:

    1. Most people (like your father) who started with nothing could NOT have made millions without taking big risks. Those types of people are NOT the types to , all of a sudden, become very conservative and keep 5 million in cash (someone who grew up with money and inherited it – yes – but not a go-getter ambitious person who came here with nothing – no way- a tiger doesn’t change his stripes. I bet if you really looked into your dad’s finances, you would be quite surprised. Most rich people are leveraged beyond belief. Also, his income from his groups/practices are about to get KILLED. His practices will be worth close to nothing when bundled payments continue in 2012. Has he thought about that? He may be only left with his “5 million”.

    2. My story is true – I was joking when I said I was a geriatrician bc so many of my patients are in their 80s and 90s.

    3. My story about making money in Boston was true as well – started out with a loan for 28k and turned that into a few million in a few years.

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  48. Lol Dan. Seriously …luigi? What is this , super Mario bros? You’re so lame. Note I was commenting on someone elses financial situation not my own. Also in response not volunteering anything. Regardless, say hi to your mom for me.

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  49. danatello is back…..

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  50. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 10:43 am

    thank you Bob.. go send Groove the post you sent me about not wasting my time with it. Now it’s just fun to play with… Like bring out your inner 1980’s Groove.. I know you love it. Spike up the hair like a young Simon Le Bon and let it go…

    Her name is Clio and she shills upon the land
    Just a big liar trying to sell you other peoples land
    And when she shills she really shows you all of OP that she can
    Oh Clio Clio go stick your head deep up your rear end

    see.. already made me happy!

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  51. Clio. Fair enough. You know I like you, it wouldn’t be as fun if I didn’t bust your balls every now and then, haha.
    Bundled payments will take a long long time, you’re right, smaller grioips will be dead in 5-10 years. Hence he is stashing as much as he can now pre retirement.

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  52. Sad_at_Plaza440 on August 25th, 2011 at 10:47 am

    “I am in a similar situation w/ millions in assets but a significantly declining income and significantly increasing expenses (tuition alone this year for the two brats is nearly 80k)!!!”

    I know this is off-topic, and I’ll probably regret asking, but Clio would you mind explaining why you have a “significantly declining income”? Is it because of changes in Medicare payments, other changes in government policies, increased competition from other doctors, a decision you’d made to work less, or something else?

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  53. Riz,

    Honest question, what is the feeling of anesthesiologists these days. I remember last year we got into a discussion on pay, etc. – I think cardiologists, radiologists, and anesthesiologists are about to get KILLED in reimbursements. I know that my income has dropped 40% in two years (bc of govt.reimbursements) and they are predicting another 20-30% drop in 2012.

    I know that most non-physicians are probably laughing and smirking and thinking “it’s about time their salaries came down” but you guys don’t understand the time, emotional and financial commitment it takes not only to become a doctor but to practice as one. What will happen is that more and more doctors will leave practice and you will see more and more uneducated nurses and nurse practitioners take on larger and larger roles – and let me tell you, these nurses don’t know wtf they are doing or talking about (sure they are nice in the roles they have right now) = but do you really want them to be making medical decisions about you – well get ready, you are all likely going to suffer and die prematurely as a result of this nonsense. You will all only realize too late (just like the housing crisis).

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  54. yes bob, credit, like money is a drug that I don’t expect to dissapear off the face of the earth any time soon

    hyperinflation here in the US? Haha I can confidently say that will NEVER happen in my lifetime.

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  55. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 10:49 am

    “sent me about not wasting my time with it”

    must correct own post. strike time, replace with energy,

    wasting time is awesome! Wasting time – wasted, is like awesome cubed!

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  56. Clio, has your group consolidated with other larger ones to make a “supergroup” yet? That’s what my old man is doing – not many docs wi be able to but if you do you’re left with a large group of 100 or so docs covering 10 hospitals or so, won’t see as much of am impact. Also, anesthesia has no patient continuity or long term outcome, it’s relatively untouched by bundled payments. They are more tailored to internal medicine and it’s subspecialties. ER med, radiology, anesthesia, u likely to be affected. ( not saying Salaries won’t go down. They will )

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  57. Clio, we are all going to make less. Radiology and cardiology got ht the hardest. Anesthesia has been fairly stable but hasnt classically made as much as other high earning subspecialties either.. Hospital is asking for a 5% cut over 10 years on group salaries…radiology group saw a 21% cut

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  58. “I know that most non-physicians are probably laughing and smirking and thinking “it’s about time their salaries came down” but you guys don’t understand the time, emotional and financial commitment it takes not only to become a doctor but to practice as one.”

    I take home 60% of what I did three years ago…. its not just Docs.
    There is no wage inflation. This is why real estate (residential) will see little to no price appreciation for years to come. One caveat… unless we see hyper-inflation due to the colapse of the US currency.

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  59. I the moniker Luigi was inspired by Luigi Moretti, renowned architect. The fact that a Lega Nord (Italian version of racist tea baggers) also has a politician Luigi Moretti might been the extra bonus…lol
    Best part is I bet Dan cannot even speak italian or for that matter any other language except his mother tongue.

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  60. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 11:01 am

    In high inflation times credit availability tanks because its so damn hard to price the risk. At least with fixed rates.

    Several other reasons, yes. Difficulty in pricing the risk is not one.

    Sonies.. It’s their money, they can do whatever they want with it. . Make it pretty and pink and even change the Washington to Booker T, just to upset the Bobs.

    I can’t off hand think of a country, that reaches the point of paying debt with debt, that didn’t pay dearly for that stunt. Not there yet, just sayin.

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  61. Well I like it more than the name Marcus. I just don’t get why he wants to post on a board where people think he’s an idiot, ridicule him, and he is generally unwanted . Though clio gets his fair share of hate, we all missed him when he disappeared for a while.

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  62. Riz,

    but bundled payments are seriously going to affect your income. For those that don’t understand – bundled payments that the govt are instituting state that they will pay “x” amount to the hospital for “x” condition/procedure. The hospital then controls who and where that money goes. That “x” amount also has to cover any potential complications, etc.

    So this is what is going to happen:

    1. The people who are the sickest (and most complicated) are going to be shipped to the worst hospitals with the worst physicians (as the better hospitals/physicians will find some excuse not to take them). – ie there will be cherry picking of patients. If an uncomplicated appendectomy pays as much as a complicated one, why take on the extra expense?

    2. Hospitals will (and are) instituting measures to make doctors stop ordering several tests (which will likely lead to increased morbidity/mortality) – which, of course will lie with the physicians (the hospitals will claim they never “made” the doctors not order the appropriate tests- even though they do by financial means)

    3. More and more doctors will leave practice – hence more nurses taking care of you = HUGE increase in morbidity/mortality.

    This is as clear as day (and just as clear as this whole housing crisis was in 2005-2006) – but, just like in housing, nobody sees any problem right now and so are just ignoring it. Just wait for 2020 when your parents, grandparents, yourselves and even your kids start dying and nobody gives a crap – what then?!

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  63. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 11:07 am

    I think the gov’t should just give everyone a huge raise. Mandate a wage increase. Go full balls to the wall Argentina on y’all. Then the mortgages avg 200k will be cheap. Banks will be outta trouble. Everyone will feel happy they are making more, of course this will push prices higher then the raises, which would force people to lose in real dollars, so when they notice this… then just mandate a raise again.

    If the above sounds like an exaggeration… That’s pretty much how they roll down there…

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  64. Clio. I agree with everything above except that docs won’t leave practice, they will stay and work for less , because most docs like everyone else, will have bills to pay. The quality of care will go down the tubes , and the best and brightest will likely stop going into medicine (wont be worth high tuition and stress) .

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  65. Actually I like having Clio around. He changes his positions faster than 1/sinx changes sign near zero : )

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  66. Riz – I agree that the new docs will stay – but most older docs (my age and above) will leave. The new breed of hospitalists are taking over – shift work at 150-175k/year. Not bad for them – but very bad for the patient.

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  67. Miu miu Math gives me anxiety. Lol

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  68. “Riz – I agree that the new docs will stay – but most older docs (my age and above) will leave. The new breed of hospitalists are taking over – shift work at 150-175k/year. Not bad for them – but very bad for the patient.”

    C if your leaving the med biz and want to become a real estate mogul might I suggest developing property in North Dakota.

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  69. “He changes his positions faster than 1/sinx changes sign near zero : )”

    miumiu, you don’t know the half of it…(wink wink)

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  70. “I can’t off hand think of a country, that reaches the point of paying debt with debt, that didn’t pay dearly for that stunt. Not there yet, just sayin.”

    the problem with those other countries is that they had NO ASSETS! And depended heavily on imports because they had no natural resources of their own to sustain themselves (i.e. food & energy). Why do you think we are importing all our oil? Because when the world runs out, we’ll be the only ones left with it! We have too much food!

    we have 10x debt coverage with assets, our debt service amount is at a decade low (thanks to low rates), and if this bernake experiment works and growth happens here again (it will when 3rd world shitholes will stop working for pennies on the dollar like china, and the Euro fails which it will) we will be fine.

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  71. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 11:20 am

    “He changes his positions faster than 1/sinx changes sign near zero : )”

    I am getting so pissed with Riz and Clio in this thread, I am almost about to answer that with a joke on fractals.

    Seriously, I concocted an ingeniously nefarious plan to get Groove to sing that song to himself, after which he would find himself singing Clio’s name to himself, all evening, with no ability to stop it. Now it’s lost between Doctor poo.

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  72. Sorry Ze. We can cease doctor speak now haha. Clio that was quite a zinggg haha.

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  73. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 11:28 am

    “We have too much food!”

    You missed what I presumed to Bob yesterday. I confirmed it later. Since 2005 the U.S. has been net short food. I personally think it’s just cause you all eat too damn much. So much for the too much food theory though.

    Brazil had one of the worst currency disasters ever. I have never seen a place so wealthy in ASSETS in my life. Renewable, so even better.
    Problem was more corruption, money came in from Banks… money left in briefcases to Switzerland. Kinda like Iraq?

    And wages are rising very fast right here, right now. Faster than I ever expected, I mean I was off by a lot. Wonder if Riz sees the same over on his part of the Subcontinent.

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  74. then why ze are:

    “American farmers export 45 percent of their wheat, 34 percent of their soybeans, 71 percent of their almonds, and more than 60 percent of their sunflower oil.”

    its not because we have to little thats for sure… In fact I think food is our largest export

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  75. brazil will have another crisis too, that crapshack condo you showed the other day for 1.2 million in rio was quite telling

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  76. ze – the faster and higher the rise, the greater and harder the fall. That is a bubble in the making. Get out while you can. The same thing is happening in India. Ridiculous bubble – all will crash in 10 years.

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  77. Riz and Clio – whats your outlook for GI compared to other specialties?

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  78. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 11:49 am

    “brazil will have another crisis too, that crapshack condo you showed the other day for 1.2 million in rio was quite telling”

    It makes me shake my head. I swear it really does. I agree with Clio on timing.. I don’t think it tops until 2019-2021 post Olympics.

    But not sure it *was/is* a bubble. It’s kind of a serious Name Brand city that was way under other major brand name cities, so after the clean up, moving to London or Paris prices does surprise the shit out of me, but doesn’t shock me.

    And Clio.. Like you would say.. where am I going to move? I decided I want to live here!

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  79. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 11:52 am

    Sonies… surprising to me as well. Export a lot, but import more. +69 -80. Net short.

    http://in.reuters.com/article/2008/04/18/trade-wto-food-idINL1835607720080418

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  80. luigi, you should really read jeremy grantham’s latest GMO newsletter, it talks all about the future of agriculture

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  81. “ze – the faster and higher the rise, the greater and harder the fall. That is a bubble in the making. Get out while you can. The same thing is happening in India. Ridiculous bubble – all will crash in 10 years.”

    clio your an unethical shill and should be ashamed to even show face.

    man up and do the right thing

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  82. I’ll give Clio and all the other docs credit where credit is due. If this country continues just adding demand for health care with addressing/increasing the supply of providers we are indeed up shit creek.

    I never understood why that point didn’t come up in the debates – IMO giving 40 million people health insurance is noble, but who is going to treat them, and where?

    We need new hospitals, some sort of “Teach for America” for young docs/nurses or people changing careers, and we need it quick.

    and I can’t believe I am in such solid agreement with Clio. I need a drink.

    “This is as clear as day (and just as clear as this whole housing crisis was in 2005-2006) – but, just like in housing, nobody sees any problem right now and so are just ignoring it. Just wait for 2020 when your parents, grandparents, yourselves and even your kids start dying and nobody gives a crap – what then?!”

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  83. those numbers are from 2006, ze… if you go to page 52 & 53 of the WTO site (most recent numbers are from 2009)

    http://www.wto.org/english/res_e/statis_e/its2010_e/its2010_e.pdf

    it shows the US imported 101bill of agricultural products and exported 120bill

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  84. “brazil will have another crisis too, that crapshack condo you showed the other day for 1.2 million in rio was quite telling”

    Ze –

    Just curious. How do Brazilians finance home purchases? Can they easily obtain mortgages like we do? Or do they have to save up and pay cash like in much of the developing world? Can the average person buy a home? Or do you only have wealthy buyers?

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  85. “Riz and Clio – whats your outlook for GI compared to other specialties?”

    I think all specialties will go down, but not to the extent of cardiology, anesthesiology, ER and radiology.

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  86. “so basically clio likes streeterville and doesn’t like lincoln park. we already knew that, thank you for wasting our time”

    no clio has a property there that he wants to unload, so he is promoting it as only he knows how.

    unethical shill that he is

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  87. A girlfriend met a guy recently on match.com. He told her he was an ER doctor. It turned out he was a physician’s assistant. I mean, not to sniff at physician’s assistants or anything. I know the training is rigorous…but he wasn’t a doctor and he felt compelled to lie!

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  88. Groove, stop already. None of my properties are on the market. I have nothing to sell, so stop your unhealthy obsession. Seriously, go look at some houses in logan square or wherever it is that you live.

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  89. so you’re a buyers agent clio?

    or maybe you are one of those rental guys… hahaha

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  90. Milkster, a lot of midlevels providers have a complex. So many nurses ate getting a DNP degree now, a doctorate of nursing. They are using it as a way to introduce themselves as “Dr” to patients and to lobby for equal practice rights. PA ‘s are physician assistants buy often get annoyed at that name, they like to be called “physician associates”. Everyday wants physician pay and respect, but minus the training. Who suffers? Patients.

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  91. “I think the gov’t should just give everyone a huge raise. Mandate a wage increase.”

    The Nixon Plan!! Gotta love Tricky Dick-onomics

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  92. VERY nice place. I likey the first time it was on and compared to unit #8, yes these buyers did get a fantastic deal.
    How can anyone hate on this unit? LOCO LOCO LOCO LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION…right? Isn’t everything in LP expensive and worth every cent?
    Re: assessments. The amount is expected in a building like this with that many sq ft. Taxes are high, even for Chicago standards, but I doubt the buyer has an issue with it seeing he/she paid less for their place then the unit 3 fls above.
    Just have to ask though, if no one thinks this is a great deal, how does everyone feel about the asking prices of units @ 2520? None have as much space, but they do have same views, some outdoor space, better amenities (I imagine) etc.

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  93. Anon – nobody on here knows who or what a “nixon” is…..

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  94. “Groove, stop already. None of my properties are on the market. I have nothing to sell, so stop your unhealthy obsession. Seriously, go look at some houses in logan square or wherever it is that you live.”

    and your brokerage has no properties on the market now or in the last year?

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  95. @ clio,
    The units you pointed out (I assume YOU do NOT own them) are all in need of updating and are not in the same league as this one and you know it. Even from someone who does not live in Chicago permanently, I know they just do not compare.

    “Also, I am skeptical that anyone (unless they have a net worth of over 30 million) has 5 million in cash. No financial advisor would “allow” that!!!”
    Why are you so skeptical about this! I am surprised you do not have that amount tucked away under your mattress and safe from the market…both stock and RE.
    While I won’t post what I do have in cash, it reflects what I do have invested in (only) NYC RE. I dodged losing much money in RE by knowing when to bail and redirect my business.
    You speak about taking huge risks to make money. I did take a few huge risks early in my career. The largest being the using a ‘trust fund’ grands set up that was intended for college to purchase the crappy first few buildings and equipment for my business.
    I did this realizing no one, NO ONE in my family was going to help me if I made any mistakes with my career choice.
    After taking a few more ‘huge’ risks, after I got my self established and knew I was making the right choices, I decided I needed to start playing it safe…and so I did. I can now rest knowing I could live for a good amount of time (15-20 yrs) on the non-invested $$ I managed to save.
    I noticed there have been many changes in your financial life lately…it is reflected in your Dr Jekyll/Mr Hide postings. But are you really that near the edge financially?

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  96. “How can anyone hate on this unit? LOCO LOCO LOCO LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION…right?”

    uhh – westloop where were you when everyone was bashing the building at 2020 N lincoln park west?

    http://cribchatter.com/?p=11098

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  97. match.com lol. on match.com I’m mark Cubans silent business partner. and all of the girl pics are from when they were 22. you act surprised people exaggerate on their online dating profiles lol! let me tell you being an MD is a muck quicker way to get into a girls pants and into ones you wouldn’t otherwise vs a PA & most girls aside from nurses aren’t savvy enough to tell the difference so long as you talk the talk.

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  98. No comparing, other than location, this unit with that nasty looking building.
    So old and….yuck. Just not in the same league at all. Nor will this unit be once 2520 is finished.

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  99. Not sure why anyone in the right mind would come to CC to shill properties…… Kinda like a fur dealer speaking at a peta convention

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  100. IMO there are no posts I enjoy reading more than those made by Clio and Architect, obviously for different reasons.

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  101. First, there is a world, nay, a galaxy of difference between 2020 “LPW” and 2120 LPW. Come on now.

    Second, as to 2520 N. Lakeview…the subject property blows away anything in that building, at least for the money. $1.4 will not get one the same amount of space at 2520, nor will it get one a full floor. $2.6 (which is the in-building comp for the subject property), on the other hand, might get one close to the same amount of space in 2520 (albeit still not a full floor). Personally, I’d rather live on Lakeview (though that might change once 2520 is mostly occupied), but for $2 millionish (which is basically what the subject property is worth), I think I’d opt for a full-floor unit at 2120 over 2520.

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  102. westloop,

    I am not comparing the individual units, you clod. Obviously the subject property is much nicer – but look at the price per square foot, look at the monthly costs – there is also no comparison. Your point was that location trumps all – my point is that it is not always the case – see the property at 2020 n lpw.

    Also, with your conservative approach to money (saving a lot in cash, etc.), that is exactly what I said – people who came from money and didn’t start off with zero WILL do that – but people who came from nothing and actually made their money themselves are risk takers and THOSE people are not going to all of a sudden become scared conservative wimps.

    Now go back to the Hamptons and drink a mint julep while playing croquet. Leave us normal people to solve the problems of the world!!!

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  103. Clio,

    i think you missed my question;

    …and your brokerage has no properties on the market now or in the last year?

    “Groove, stop already. None of my properties are on the market. I have nothing to sell, so stop your unhealthy obsession. Seriously, go look at some houses in logan square or wherever it is that you live.”

    and your brokerage has no properties on the market now or in the last year?

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  104. Groove,

    I don’t know if my brokerage has any properties on the market. My broker works independently and doesn’t have to tell me about any properties he has listed. I actually don’t really care about any other properties other than my own – I give him all the money for all the commissions on anything he lists/sells – I only make money on my own properties.

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  105. thats different than what you (or the one of you’s) said yesterday

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  106. Not to change the subject – but it is so unbelievably beautiful outside – everyone should go out and walk around. Seriously – it is unbelievable – we only have a few days like this per year. Take off work and walk around – you will feel better.

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  107. “I don’t know if my brokerage has any properties on the market.”

    Huh? I’m confused. When you say “your brokerage”. Do you mean the company you USE? Or the company you OWN? Do you pay him a salary?

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  108. I own it – but no, I don’t pay his salary. I just pay for all the licensing, advertising, fees in return for discounted rates on commissions for my properties.

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  109. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    How do Brazilians finance home purchases? Mostly cash.

    Can they easily obtain mortgages like we do? No, and the rates are very high.

    Or do they have to save up and pay cash like in much of the developing world? Yep

    Can the average person buy a home? Nope, that home I showed was a crap street, in a very good spot, total reno needed, under 1,200 sq ft. for 1.2

    Or do you only have wealthy buyers? Not sure, seems things are lifting everywhere. I am more familiar with, the what and why, of just my area.

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  110. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 1:28 pm

    and sonies.. thanks for the stat. I feel better. like I said, it surprised me. Was lazy and my google always reverts to a sucky brazil search everytime I scrape clean my computer (regularly). So didn’t pop up any search past 2008. Food is one of the few things I would consider an area of National Security.

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  111. This speculation of the horrendous effects of on our health care system with declines in doctors’ compensation and more services provided nurse practitioners doesn’t address the fact that our health care system is the most expensive with the worst outcomes for developed countries. My sister is a nurse practitioner and she knows when she needs to get a doctor involved. She can take care of a major chunk of routine health care and know when to send a patient off to a specialist. She isn’t reimbursed by the number of tests she performs, and her opinion is that there are too many tests for the wrong cover your ass reasons. If routine healthcare becomes more available at cheaper cost, why won’t increase the quality of of healthcare? And going into the profession for high compensation doesn’t necessarily make the best doctors. And it could be some of those with the 3.5 GPAs might actually have more of a calling for the profession, more compassion and intuition. The old model certainly isn’t producing the best outcomes for the money.

    “The quality of care will go down the tubes , and the best and brightest will likely stop going into medicine (wont be worth high tuition and stress) .”

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  112. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 1:33 pm

    “Anon – nobody on here knows who or what a “nixon” is…..”

    Sure, he’s the guy Opie made a movie about.

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  113. Jennifer,

    your sister is probably a great nurse practitioner and there are a LOT of them out there. However, there are many that are terrible (just as there are doctors that are not that great). However, there are fewer bad docs – in addition, nurse practitioners barely have any liability while the docs have a huge liability.

    The issue is that, in order to be a doctor you need to possess special qualities that are not found in people who are unable to achieve high test scores and grades (notice I didn’t say intelligence).

    Healthcare costs so much in this country because of the attorneys – PERIOD. Doctors understand that most tests they order are useless/unnecessary from a medical standpoint – but absolutely 100% necessary from a legal standpoint. Institute tort reform and you will see a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE reduction in healthcare spending – but that will never happen because of the lawyers. It is so simple and obvious but nobody seems to want to address it – because everyone in politics is a lawyer – just look at …..

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  114. sorry, I meant juliana, not jennifer.

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  115. Sure. Stop suing docs over every possible thing and they won’t be forced to order every test under the sun to cover their asses. Nurse practitioners don’t get sued like docs so it’s pretty easy for them to criticize why/how many tests a doc ordered.

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  116. you know what else would make healthcare more affordable? the opening of inter-state insurance purchasing capablility

    why can’t I buy another state’s plan? Why can’t I get a deal on an individual plan instead of my insurance being tied to my job and tax deductable as well… Oh right, that whole insurance lobby thing

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  117. I say BS.

    “The issue is that, in order to be a doctor you need to possess special qualities that are not found in people who are unable to achieve high test scores and grades (notice I didn’t say intelligence).”

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  118. No Juliana. That’s not BS. The Amount of dedication and the strong work ethic needed to get into med school, master the material and pass boards, and get through residency is correlated linearly with exam scores and gpa’s. You dont have to be a genius to be a doc, but you need to be very hardworking. I know some carribean doctors that had average grades and average mcat scores, went to the islands for med schools, barely passed boards… Guess what? They are shitty doctors / can’t make it through residency training.

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  119. juliana, are you kidding me?! what gives you any right or authority to determine what it takes to be a doctor? Oh yeah, your SISTER is a NURSE. Give me a break. You would be shocked at how medically stupid nurses really are – honestly patients without any medical experience have more sense than 99% of the nurses out there. Nurses know how to hold hands (actually, most are hideous mean idiots) and some know how to follow orders. Other than that, most (like you) have attitude problems without having any qualities to back up the attitude.

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  120. Wow – reading the responses from clio and riz, could you ever imagine which one is in his 40s and which one is in his 20s?!!! scary……

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  121. This

    “why can’t I buy another state’s plan? Why can’t I get a deal on an individual plan instead of my insurance being tied to my job and tax deductable as well… Oh right, that whole insurance lobby thing”

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  122. yep – health care may be the most inefficient sector of the economy when you look at the costs of administration (insurance companies).

    it’s why I love laughing at the tea baggers – Medicare administration costs are very low.

    “Oh right, that whole insurance lobby thing”

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  123. so what? why should the govt be able to force me to buy insurance. we are governed by laws and the constitution and that mandate goes very much against our constitution.

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  124. most nurses I know are hot. stereotypes exist for a reason.

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  125. “most nurses I know are hot. stereotypes exist for a reason.”

    wait wait wait – you must mean “hot” as in menopause?

    just walk into any hospital and see what horrible monsterous creatures exist!!!

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  126. No, she’s a nurse practitioner. Probably would have been a doctor, got a bio undergrad degree and had good grades, but decided to go the mommy track instead and didn’t go on for her advanced degrees until her kids were grown. She works in community health care and isn’t in it for the money. Continuity of care is a problem, but she does what she can to help underserved people. She knows her limits and refers complicated cases to doctors, but a lot of routine care is pretty simple. Just because you don’t see any difference between a nurse and a nurse practitioner doesn’t mean there doesn’t mean that patients can’t tell the difference.

    Oh yeah, your SISTER is a NURSE.

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  127. Bob. Most nurses are middle aged and obese. I’ve worked at or rotated at most hospitals in this city. Yes there is an occasional cute one…they usually marry a doctor and quit. Trust me, most nurses are unattractive and have an attitude problem.

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  128. * most major hospitals. Also, pharm reps are stereotypically hot. I’ve rarely seen one that isn’t. Usually college cheerleaders or models / just plain hot.

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  129. “Not sure why anyone in the right mind would come to CC to shill properties…… Kinda like a fur dealer speaking at a peta convention”

    quote of the day : )

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  130. And yes Juliana, there is a huge difference between a Rn, Np, crna, PA, etc.

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  131. juliana, saying your sister could have been a doctor is like me saying I could have been:

    1. president of the U.S.
    2. CEO of a major corporation
    3. porno star
    4. congressman

    you get the idea….

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  132. “ure. Stop suing docs over every possible thing and they won’t be forced to order every test under the sun to cover their asses. Nurse practitioners don’t get sued like docs so it’s pretty easy for them to criticize why/how many tests a doc ordered.”

    Actually I am always pissed how few tests they order here. I could not even get an MRI because I was not old enough or had high risk in my family. I went to Italy and just got one. I had the same issue getting colonoscopy here.

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  133. I am sure your sister is wonderful Juliana, but when ever I have seen a nurse practitioner she has been useless if not flat out wrong.

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  134. “most nurses I know are hot. stereotypes exist for a reason.”

    where do you go to hospital? I have only seen overweight ones with hideous pastel outfits. Actually UChicago just changed the uniforms of their nurses. I am so glad they look less like cup cakes now.
    The stereotype is from sixties and seventies when they had the tight fitting dress uniform and were actually slim.

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  135. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    Bob.. I don’t even have car insurance… Crazy socialist country of yours.

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  136. “most nurses I know are hot. stereotypes exist for a reason.”

    where do you go to hospital? I have only seen overweight ones with hideous pastel outfits. Actually UChicago just changed the uniforms of their nurses. I am so glad they look less like cup cakes now.
    The stereotype is from sixties and seventies when they had the tight fitting dress uniform and were actually slim

    I think bob has watched one too many 70’s porno films….

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  137. Yeah, except she is highly intelligent and had excellent grades. She was bio undergrad and tested well on MCATS, and then decided to support her husband through med school and have babies instead. He was/is a douchebag, like you. Is that common in doctors, like ugliness and obesity is common in nurses? Do all your patients have attitude problems too?

    And I don’t hold a lot of respect for any of those other categories you mention, most of them just have the right connections. Is that the point? Are you saying it takes some special connections to get to be a doctor?

    “Juliana, saying your sister could have been a doctor is like me saying I could have been:

    1. president of the U.S.
    2. CEO of a major corporation
    3. porno star
    4. congressman”

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  138. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    valasko… I was about to answer your question exactly how you answered it yourself. Even Bobs nodding his head in acceptance of the fact.

    Now hot pharma girls.. That makes sense.

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  139. I choose to see a female nurse practitioner for routine health care. I also research everything and would never put myself completely at a doctor’s mercy. Several of them have been flat out wrong with my family, and I count myself lucky that I am able to interpret research studies on my own. How many nurse practitioners have you seen, just so I can get an idea of your sample size for this anecdotal evidence.

    “I am sure your sister is wonderful Juliana, but when ever I have seen a nurse practitioner she has been useless if not flat out wrong.”

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  140. I don’t think you can be CEO or a president based on connections. Congressman…maybe if you’re born into the right family. Porn star..I have no idea.

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  141. Sorry I missed most of this, but two questions:

    1. Is it acceptable to use “lol” or is everyone using it ultra ironically?

    2. Should I be worried my doctor is the only one in his office not board certified? He does, however, respond to all emails w/in 20 minutes.

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  142. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    and Miu… Colonoscopy… Really… Did you really have to go there? Like HD says, it’s fair to modify a touch, to protect the innocent.

    I’ll just assume you meant MRI and boob implants? See how much nicer that is…..

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  143. “I don’t think you can be CEO … based on connections.”

    Wha? You think that CEO’s are all chosen for their talent at managing complex organizations?

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  144. “I choose to see a female nurse practitioner for routine health care. I also research everything and would never put myself completely at a doctor’s mercy”

    Good luck dealing with your misdiagnosed/hidden illnesses. They may not matter right now, but give it a few years….. enjoy life while you can.

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  145. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    Riz.. Male porn star would quite literally be all about connections.

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  146. Juliana, your health and your choice. One person went to colleg, med school, and residency. The other was an RN that did a 2 year follow up with an NP degree. You’re fooling yourself if you think the care is equivalent or even close. Yes, there are bad doctors, but even the worst MD passed his medical and licensing boards and has eons more knowledge than a great NP. These are facts.

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  147. DZ, yeah. Your doc should be board certified, it’s a huge deal.

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  148. “Healthcare costs so much in this country because of the attorneys – PERIOD. ”

    That’s totally wrong. Completely wrong. In TX where they had tort reform, the cases dried up and the malpractice premiums? Well, they stayed the same.

    The high cost of healthcare is complex of course, there are middle men (insurance companies) who make a lot of money; there are physicians who are grossly overpaid (radiologists who look at charts all day making $400,000 a year salary? COME ON GET REAL); when my child was born at northwestern they had like 10 nurses in the room for a routine delivery – most of whom were just standing around. Sort of like the streets and san model – 2 guys do the work, the rest just stand around and shoot the shit. In addition, while we have the most expensive system, we also have the most advanced system, with plenty of new technologies, fancy practice groups with nice waiting rooms like clio says, first access to cutting edge medicines; and of course the good ole’ supply and demand thing. the medical profession has limited the number of doctors by limited the number of residencies and keeping the number of new physicians low. hence as demand goes up, the number of doctors stay the same. So I’m stuck going to the only ENTs in the area and waiting in the god damn waiting room for 2 hours and then I get to spend 4 minutes with the doctor. There are no limits on the nubmer of dentists, and dentistry has become cheaper, and more available, you can always find a dentist to pull teeth if necessary in a pinch.

    Solutions? pay doctors less. doctors were little more than shamen for the last 2000 years. Hell, lawyers were writing the constitution when doctors were using leeches on george washington; and he had wooden teeth for christ sakes!

    expand the number of doctors. allow more nurses and assistants to perform routine medical care. expand clinics. Limit the number of middle men or make them all non-profits or public utilities. ration care. for example, if you smoke, well, you have to wait for an appointment for your lung conditions, same for obsese people.

    Stop giving 85 year old quality of life surgeries like new hips and knees. If they go into the ICU for more than 2 days, pull the plug. I know these sound harsh, but they work, and they WILL lower the cost of healthcare.

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  149. DZ – I highly doubt your doctor is personally responding to his emails every 20 minutes – I can almost guarantee that it is someone on his staff.

    Who cares if the others in his practice aren’t board certified if he is your primary doctor and you like him. Actually, I take that back – if you are hospitalized and your primary is on vacation or not oncall they will call his partners. Also, some hospitals don’t allow doctors on their staff who are NOT board certified. I think Advocate Healthcare is one of those hospital systems that don’t allow physicians who aren’t board certified to even admit patients – so you are SOL if you want to go to an advocate hospital and your doc isn’t board certified!!!

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  150. “Your doc should be board certified, it’s a huge deal.”

    Maybe, but he’s very responsive and orders whatever tests I want.

    “Who cares if the others in his practice aren’t board certified if he is your primary doctor and you like him.”

    Reading comp. He’s the one not board certified. I also like to think maybe it’s b/c he doesn’t want to be too busy.

    “I highly doubt your doctor is personally responding to his emails every 20 minutes – I can almost guarantee that it is someone on his staff.”

    It’s absolutely him. He’s just not busy, I can get an appt whenever.

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  151. “The high cost of healthcare is complex of course, there are middle men (insurance companies) who make a lot of money; there are physicians who are grossly overpaid (radiologists who look at charts all day making $400,000 a year salary? COME ON GET REAL); when my child was born at northwestern they had like 10 nurses in the room for a routine delivery – most of whom were just standing around.”

    Ok HD the real question that everyone would like answered is….. were the nurses hot?

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  152. Why should I be looking harder for something to be wrong when I have no symptoms? I feel good, tests come back fine, don’t think I really need a full body scan to find something that will never amount to anything and cause me unnecessary stress. If I have symptoms, I’ll see a specialist. Until then, a nurse practitioner does the same things, runs the same tests, asks the same questions as a doctor. Check out the book Overdiagnosed: Making People Sick in the Pursuit of Health.

    “Good luck dealing with your misdiagnosed/hidden illnesses. They may not matter right now, but give it a few years….. enjoy life while you can.”

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  153. Mrs. HD sometimes reads these threads so I’m not going to comment on the attractiveness of the nursing staff.

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  154. valasko – for the LAST time – chaz is a realtor – NOT a nurse!!!!

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  155. Hd, stop it. Do we yeah you how to run your law practice? Your post is insulting, and what the hell does what Medicine 200 years have to do with now? You pay that radiologist 400k bc he catches the tumor in your lung, liver, child’s brain, wherever. You want to cut corners when it comes to yours and your families health? Really? If what you suggest truly happens, you will be shocked at what happens to morbidity and mortality in this country. Also, physician salaries are a minimal, at best , part of health care costs. If you dont understand medicine, the need for X number of nurses in a room, or the pathology and mechanism disease your doctor diagnoses and treats, don’t even attempt to comment on what his services are worth or how to improve it – you are not a physician and you just don’t know.

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  156. ” If I have symptoms, I’ll see a specialist. Until then, a nurse practitioner does the same things…..”

    Ok, mwaa (moron with an attitude) – MOST horrible (but curable) illnesses are silent.

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  157. HD – wtf? You are bringing up professions 2000 years ago?!! Huh? It is like saying, in 2005, my house was worth 2 million…. so fucking what?!!

    Also, good luck when you, your wife or your kid or relatives get sick. I hope you learn the hard way how important good medical care is (just as you are learning how hard the housing market it). You are a complete loser – your wife is likely to leave you for someone with at least a more positive person.

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  158. God, once again, Riz and I respond to a post and he sounds like a well balanced smart professional and I sound like a crazy psychotic raving lunatic!!!! God damn it!!!

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  159. Which is why I see a nurse practitioner annually and have the blood work and routine tests done. Do you have some special ability to see beyond the routine tests in an otherwise healthy patient or do you just order every conceivable test just in case? That sounds lucrative.

    “Ok, mwaa (moron with an attitude) – MOST horrible (but curable) illnesses are silent.”

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  160. valasko – for the LAST time – chaz is a realtor – NOT a nurse!!!!

    But I bet he would look hot in one of those 70’s nurse outfits!

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  161. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    and clio.. Everyone gets more conservative as they get older. Starting over again at 27 is one thing. Fourties, not so keen on that idea. Riz’s pops position makes perfect sense.

    Further proof, didn’t somone post the top 5 funds are basically cash. Are those just the poor posting those numbers?

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  162. Haha it’s ok Clio. I think the passion in your posts is far more entertaining, and at the end our points are the same.

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  163. As a former lawyer for the drug industry, I can attest that physician salaries are small part of the cost of health care. Cutting physician salaries in half won’t touch the problem with rising health care. But it will be a deterrant for the best and brightest to go to medical school. Why go into such debt, miss your 20’s and early 30’s, to make less than a guy with a B.A. in business… cutting salaries will eventually erode the quality of health care.

    Drug mark ups are routinely 90%. This does not happen in socialized countries. My clients sold the same drug there at a fration of the cost. Insurance companies make huge profits. Ask yourselves, to the extent you over pay for something, would you rather it be for your doctor, house or car. It should be your doctor. Morover, to the extent people profit off of healthcare, do you want it to be the doctor who actually provides it or the insurance man? Really,….healthcare is the only industry where nonproviders make more than providers. Doesn’t happen in banking, law, etc… That’s what’s screwed up. As much as you can’t stand Clio, I can say from first hand experience (lots of confidential documents) that doctors are not the ones robbing the public. They are just the easiest targets.

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  164. Because the economy sucks and guys with BAs in business are not able to find a job. May have been the case in the past, future looks less favorable. Job security looks better in health care.

    “Why go into such debt, miss your 20’s and early 30’s, to make less than a guy with a B.A. in business… cutting salaries will eventually erode the quality of health care.”

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  165. “Drug mark ups are routinely 90%. This does not happen in socialized countries. My clients sold the same drug there at a fration of the cost.”

    Yeah, because (a) our spending on drugs subsidizes the rest of the world, and (b) the free-riders in all those socialized countries pass laws putting caps on the costs. If we stop subsidizing the *world’s* spending on drugs, we will almost certainly see less R&D.

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  166. Just because Big Pharm and insurance are most guilty doesn’t mean doctors shouldn’t accept lower pay in an economic downturn that could last a long time. But I’m for universal health care, no insurance, bargaining power with pharmaceutical companies, doctors as employees. Good wages, job security, and maybe special medical courts with expert judges who provide rulings that establish standards. Also, perhaps the gov can subsidize the education of physicians and have them do community service to pay it back. win-win.

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  167. Blah blah blah about how important and self-serving doctors are. Leeches, mercury, shamen, and leeches people.

    I said there were MANY reasons why healthcare is expensive. Not that doctors salaries alone, but many reasons. I had a conversation with a guy just yesterday and his brother is an eye doctor and makes $350,000 a year. Physicians in other countries make do with less money, why can’t you?

    The middle men, the drug companies, the insurance companies, they all take a bite of it too.

    THe other thing is that I read one time and i dont’ have a stat for it, that 80% of all healthcare costs are spent on 20% of the people – the trainwrecks as your profession calls them. The COPD high blood pressure obese heart disease patient in their 50-80’s who regularly spends the night in the hospital when the wheese or their heart skips a beat (in short all of my personal injury clients, just kidding!!!)

    a

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  168. What’s the biggest cost expended by Big Pharm? Not R & D, and not legal. It’s marketing.

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  169. HD, okay, why don’t lawyers make do with less too? Why should lawfirms charge so much? I say all lawyers should be govt employees for 60k a year. Seems fair.

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  170. PS, 350 k for a eye doc is pretty low.

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  171. I have to go in a minute but I also wanted to say that medical care is paid for in something called a ‘bell curve’. The bottom of the bell curve pays nothing or next to nothing, and the top of the bell curve pays medical bills nearly in full.

    At the bottom of the bell curve are the uninsured, then medicaid, then medicare is more towards the middle of the curve but on the lower half, then the health insurance companies are in the middle of the curve, and near the top are the worker’s compensation claims, the vehicular med pay, and the statutory health care services lien acts, which get paid the most.

    So the health care providers are dipping into multiple revenue streams, it’s not all just insurance companies, it’s also the fact that the losses from medicare/medicaid/uninsured people have to be borne by the people who can pay, like the ins. co’s and the worker’s comps, etc.

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  172. “HD, okay, why don’t lawyers make do with less too?”

    They do, believe me, only the top superstar lawyers these days are making top dollar, and even the average big law lawyer makign $160k is far less than you will make when you are practicing. and prices are dropping, and lawyers are competing for business. plenty of lawyers are making do with far far less.

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  173. Just out of med school, and the 350 was a guesstimate from the brother.

    “Riz on August 25th, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    PS, 350 k for a eye doc is pretty low.”

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  174. That’s because getting into law school is a joke in this country, Anyone can get in. *smart* lawyers that went to top 25-30 law schools easily average 100k or more out of school. And trust me, my college riends that went to decent schools like notre dame, Emory, etc for law school , 90% of them would have never ever gotten into even the worst med school on Chicago.

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  175. “Just out of med school, and the 350 was a guesstimate from the brother. ”

    Median income in Chicago is 259k, while the top 10% make 337k. I doubt he is make 350k out of school.

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  176. Yes riz, bc they limit the nnumber of students in med school, and one of the requirements is an ‘A’ in O chem.

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  177. Not in chicago.

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  178. Agree w/ riz about law school – anyone can get into A law school. If you look at the top law schools – those grads are partners at huge law firms making MUCH MUCH MUCH more than doctors.

    Disagree w/riz about the eye doc salary – avg ophthalmologist’s salary is about 250k and rapidly falling.

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  179. Just because Big Pharm and insurance are most guilty doesn’t mean Juliana -“doctors shouldn’t accept lower pay in an economic downturn that could last a long time. But I’m for universal health care, no insurance, bargaining power with pharmaceutical companies, doctors as employees. Good wages, job security, and maybe special medical courts with expert judges who provide rulings that establish standards. Also, perhaps the gov can subsidize the education of physicians and have them do community service to pay it back. win-win.”

    How do you pay back the 40 year old doctor who still has educational loan debt and did not have the chance to pay into a 401K during his 12 years of training. Is the gov going to forgive his or her debt and them write them a cash equivalent of of 15K a year plus capitalized interest for the lost time?

    Also, for those of you who compare what doctors make here versus socialized countries (i.e., Europe) you are failing to compare the markets. European doctors do not stay in school as long, don’t pay as much for school and are % wise paid as well. CEOS, businessmen, lawyers in Europe make far less than here so doctors make less but have fairly equivalent SES to doctors here. If you want to lower, phsycian salaries here without effecting the quality of doctors, then you have to lower businessment, CEO, lawyers and other salaries. The issues is how much a doctor is worth compared to these other professions. If the same intellectual ability can make you a businessman/lawyer or doctor, then salaries must not be that disparate.

    Frankly, I can say from practicing law (and I have an MBA), and watching my husband endure a surgical residency, doctors work much harder than law students/MBA students and even into practice. They deserve to make more.

    Why all the outrage at doctors salaries, they at least save lives. What about basketball players, Kim Kardashian and the other parasites who add nothing to society. I’m tired of bankers making $$$ when adding little….stop trying to lower salaries of essential professions — doctors, teachers, etc… and focus on the greater injustices. I think doctors/teachers should be able to work in a free market just like business people and lawyers. Let them set their salaries (not insurance) and the market will deterimine there worth. As it is now, insurance companies and politicians who have no understanding of medicine set their salaries. Nuts!

    Lastly, as for the quips about how drug mark ups are needed to fund R&D. Interal company documents I reviewed show that 20-25% of that mark up would have covered R&D. They are the top secret documents that Big pharma never wants you to see.

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  180. Really? I thought ophtho salaries were better than that. I stand corrected. Hd, an A in ochem isn’t necessary but if you have a C your mcat better be stellar.

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  181. “*smart* lawyers that went to top 25-30 law schools easily average 100k or more out of school. And trust me, my college riends that went to decent schools like notre dame, Emory, etc for law school , 90% of them would have never ever gotten into even the worst med school on Chicago.”

    Riz, I’m not here to jump on the anti-doctor bandwagon. But a few thoughts come to mind.

    First, newer lawyers don’t “average 100k or more.” There is a group at one end of the spectrum (maybe 20% of new grads? who knows) who start out at $160k, then there is a much larger group at the other end making like $50k, if that (and it does not go up much). And even beyond the first few years, because of the huge variety of practice settings (big firms, small firms, mid-size, in-house, solo, state or city gov, fed gov, judges) and practice areas, it’s really hard to state an “average.”

    Second, I think it’s a bit of an overstatement to say that people who attended, say, a top 30 law school could not have gotten into the worst med school in Chicago. That, and many those people simply didn’t have majors that were med-school oriented in college (and I can assure you that I’ve known philosophy majors who could have attended any med school).

    Third, I would argue that the gamut of med-school track college majors, the mcat, succeeding in med school, and becoming board certified is not unlike preparing for and taking one very, very long bar exam under sleep deprived conditions. Which is to say that, had they wished, plenty of lawyers could have ended up doctors. (Whether many doctors could successfully navigate an ever-changing legal and business landscape, and act as business people themselves in managing and growing a law practice, who knows.)

    Lastly, I work with a guy who got has a JD and MD. I’ll ask him to weigh in.

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  182. Riz:
    re “*smart* lawyers that went to top 25-30 law schools easily average 100k or more out of school.”
    You are high. Maybe 5-6 years ago, but I doubt even then. There was a recent UVirginia gaffe, and like 25-30% of their 2010 graduating class were unemployed, and that’s a top ten school.

    And given the crazy bimodal distribution of starting law salaries, an average doesn’t mean much.

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  183. OK local – we need to elect you as our spokesperson!!!!! Very well thought out and well presented facts!!!!

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  184. anonny – the sleep deprivation for preparing for the bar exam?!!! ARE…. YOU…..KIDDING…..ME?!!! Do you know how many boards doctors have to sit through? Do you know how many days each board exam is? Do you also realize there are oral boards to pass? You have no frickin’ clue. It is like a 4th grader coming home and saying, “I had the toughest day – multiplication tables are so hard you don’t understand”. Sure- hard for an idiot – but not in the bigger perspective.

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  185. Riz; No offense but 10 years ago the matriculation speaker at Notre Dame undergrad said most common undergrad degrees for ND grads accepted into med school were Anthro and Psych – not exactly what I think of when you recount “strong work ethic needed to get into med school”. Again no offense but in recent past I believe it is those who scheme best & achieve the desired resume along with those like yourself blessed with all the advantages of being born on 3rd base & (I would guess) given a leg up by med school admission committes because you are viewed as a legacy. In my experience in W Europe (not sure about current policy) physicians were paid like & viewed similarly to good automobile mechanics. Aren’t they similar professions – in most instances interpreting customer reporting of symptoms & if not sure on first blush analyzing results of tests and then prescribing treatment. (Necessary disclaimer to avoid pomposity – I am not envious of what physicians or good mechanics earn. Quite to contrary I am pleased to be writing a (to me) sizeable check to procure excellent experienced specialist who does not accept Ms Southbounds insurance because when it comes to certain aspects of health I want to be able to choose the best provider. But for routine health matters or for oil changes I don’t need a Stadivarius player

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  186. ” physicians were paid like & viewed similarly to good automobile mechanics. Aren’t they similar professions – in most instances interpreting customer reporting of symptoms & if not sure on first blush analyzing results of tests and then prescribing treatment. ”

    Southbound – very true – WITH ONE IMPORTANT EXCEPTION – you are dealing with someone’s life (so if you misdiagnose or cut a little too deep, someone dies). I am sure you don’t care very much about ms. southbound with that type of attitude (probably paying a mechanic the same as her doc) – it is a shock that she would even stay with you. Your post alone would make a divorce lawyer salivate.

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  187. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    “The issues is how much a doctor is worth compared to these other professions. If the same intellectual ability can make you a businessman/lawyer or doctor”

    Remove businessmen. I thought people often become doctors and lawyers because they are relatively “safe” professions.

    And yes, most anyone who is a lawyer could have become a doctor. It is not an intellect thing, so much as it is a dedication thing. And Law School doesn’t require nearly the dedication as Med School. All my friends in law school partied pretty hard.

    Oh yeah.. without shaman medicine – most of us would be dead by now.

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  188. Except there isn’t an artificial limit on the number of teachers that can graduate so there is no teacher shortage to prop up salaries. They accept low pay for job security.

    “I think doctors/teachers should be able to work in a free market just like business people and lawyers. Let them set their salaries (not insurance) and the market will deterimine there worth.”

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  189. “And yes, most anyone who is a lawyer could have become a doctor. It is not an intellect thing, so much as it is a dedication thing”

    I agree – just like anyone could be an olympic athlete. All it takes is dedication.

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  190. C just ignore my posts. I do not remember paying any mechanic $8K ever but like I said in my post (why do I always need to explain what is readable to you) “Quite to contrary I am pleased to be writing a (to me) sizeable check to procure excellent experienced specialist”

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  191. I believe western medicine is handicapped in that it looks outside for cures, mostly to the benefit of Big Pharm, instead of looking more closely at the mind-body connection. For instance, that is the only thing that makes antidepressants work, placebo effect.

    “Oh yeah.. without shaman medicine – most of us would be dead by now.”

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  192. southbound – the only way I am going to ignore your posts is if you start posting the truth and stop being such a jerk. Anyway, I doubt you personally wrote a check for 8k to a specialist for your wife (unless it was a plastic surgeon) which explains a lot…….

    Oh, and the reason you haven’t paid 8k to your mechanic is probably bc you drive a crappy car. I just paid 9k to fix my lambo.

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  193. Um Juliana. No , antidepressants don’t work bc of placebo effect..are you out of your mind?! Please don’t comment on neuropsych drugs with 0 knowledge of the topic. Jesus Christ people are stupid.

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  194. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 5:12 pm

    clio.. You have an excessive amount of fast twitch muscles allowing you to handle that knife? 6’5, built like a swimmer?

    Yeah, it’s a superior intellect. So you prove again and again you can’t be a doctor.

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  195. Juliana, let’s just swap out all the pills in a depressed patients zoloft with a placebo, that way we can see if the drug actually does anythig, and we won’t tell the patient or the doctor conducting the study! Wait….oh yeah! That’s called a clinical trial and antidepressants have to go through 3 extensive phases of those to be FDA approved! Jesus.

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  196. “I believe western medicine is handicapped in that it looks outside for cures, mostly to the benefit of Big Pharm, instead of looking more closely at the mind-body connection”

    HAHAHAHAHAH….wait….HAHAHAHAHAHAH

    MWAA – tell that to cancer patients or wait… tell it to someone having a heart attack…..wait…wait…. no, tell it to someone whose gallbladder is about to explode. Out of curiosity, is this how your sister practices? See folks, this is the type of care you are going to get in the future from these nurse practitioners. You come in with crushing chest pain, and you have a lady asking you “how does that make you feel? Imagine a pleasant place in your mind? etc. etc”

    This is just another reason to bite the bullet and buy your dream home now and live for the moment – you never know when you are going to meet juliana’s sister.

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  197. God clio. The people that peeve me the most are the ones that act lime depression isn’t a disease. It’s not a choice or “mindset” people, it’s a disease of neurotransmitters in your brain. Placebo effect. Good god

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  198. Your response is typical of what I would expect from a doctor. Thats why I always check things out for myself. You just go with accepted “facts”. Have you read Kirsch’s meta-analysis on antidepressants? i dug into this quite deeply a few weeks back, can’t find the recent report I read on this, but here’s Kirsch’s work:

    http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045

    “Um Juliana. No , antidepressants don’t work bc of placebo effect..are you out of your mind?! Please don’t comment on neuropsych drugs with 0 knowledge of the topic. Jesus Christ people are stupid.”

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  199. Riz, do you think its significant that the only clinical trials you get to see are those that get released? Kirsch thought that might be a problem and used the freedom of information act to get data that you don’t get to see…

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  200. “if you have a C [in O-chem]”

    You *clearly* aren’t one of the best and the brightest. You know docs who got a C in O-chem, and didn’t re-take? Really?

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  201. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    I never get ill. I never need doctors. I had a staph infection running up my leg. Would have paid anything for that lil bottle of pills.

    Go pharma! I think it’s awesome. 1 or 2 lucky breaks and i live to 140. That would be so cool, 135 takin an X and viagra cocktail and hangin with a chick born in 2080!!!!!

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  202. Clio, your opinion means less than nothing to me. Its hard to believe that such a self interested person would even go into medicine, but when its all about the money I guess thats what we get.

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  203. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 5:27 pm

    oh and anti-depressants.. That’s some scary shit. I wouldn’t touch those things in a million years.

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  204. Definitely a need for modern medicine in that case. Overuse of antibiotics probably exposed you to the staph infection. Hopefully the lil bottle still works for what you got.

    “I had a staph infection running up my leg. Would have paid anything for that lil bottle of pills.”

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  205. Jumbled up mess response there. Meant to say I know more than one person who has had MRSA infections. I hold doctors and their prescription pads responsible.

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  206. Anon that’s kind of mean. I got a C.. I got a 37 on my mcat too. O-chem can bite me.

    Juliana, you are an idiot and that study is a BS meta analyses of only 4 antidepressants. For every article arguing their efficacy there are 10 proving it. I will not argue neuroscience with someone who claims antidepressant work via placebo effect. I have friends and family with depression and lost a friend to suicide. Depression is a disease, and is treatable. Not everyone needs antidepressants, but it is a tremendous help to many. On that note. I’m out, I have a table at aviary tonight. Goodnight folks,

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  207. C: Despite your belief what I posted is true (as is all I’ve posted on CC). I did own what you’d consider a crappy car (domestic w/ 200+K miles) but recently replaced rather than pay inevitable future costs. The diff between us is I don’t give any thought to what you drive, what you pay to maintain it or what you think of my or anyone else’s car. It’s all good. But imo it is extremely poor form for you to speculate i would fabricate my partners medical issues – they exist and we deal. So ignore.

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  208. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 5:32 pm

    oh yeah.. Had a double hernia.. If it was 200 yrs ago. Have to live with an unreparable double hernia… Just kill me.

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  209. I hold the mrsa infection responsible for the infection.

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  210. Honestly, folks, reread juliana’s posts. These are likely the same views as her sister and this is what you are going to be met with when you are really sick in the future:

    scenario, you are bleeding profusely from an accident and juliana’s sister is there touting some nonsense about placebos, rainbows, unicorns and skittles. good luck

    Again, NOW is the time to live your life – buy your dream house. juliana’s sister (and others like her) are taking over the medical field. You are unlikely to survive longer than your parents. Why? reread her posts.

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  211. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 5:36 pm

    ha.. I beat Riz in o-chem.. My night is made!

    Talk about a useless class. Do they still teach chem in high school?

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  212. “Anon that’s kind of mean. I got a C.. I got a 37 on my mcat too. O-chem can bite me.”

    Dude, did they have like a C- curve or something? Or include attendance in the grade? bc one should be able to get above median just on scientific concept and the ability to kill on tests (as demonstrated by high mcat score).

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  213. southbound – I apologize. I didn’t realize that you were being serious. I don’t think real medical issues are funny or to be joked about at all. I sincerely hope that everything is ok and works out for the best. Honestly, I do..

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  214. Riz, don’t feel bad about the “c”. I was failing out of o-chem at Uof C but I smartened up. I dropped it, majored in psychology (graduated with a 3.95) and took my premed classes during the summer at U.ofI. Of course, there, I was able to get all A’s. Sure, med schools/residencies actually asked about why I took the “hard premed classes” at another school and I just told them that I wanted to take advantage of the unique classes UofC had to offer (whereas I could take science classes anywhere).

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  215. Hey Riz, here’s a piece from Psychology Today on the topic. Nobody you know could possibly be experiencing a placebo effect. You know this…how? Oh right, because you’re a DOCTOR and the last word on ALL THINGS MEDICAL.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201107/the-new-york-times-defense-antidepressants-0

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  216. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 5:47 pm

    ah.. My pet peeve of school/teachers… The attendance/homework deduction… Nothing like getting an exam back with 100 – 32, and getting a D in something you have displayed a perfect understanding of. Fuck every teacher that ever did that to me. A special place in hell to them all.

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  217. I educate my sister on stuff like the placebo study all the time because, like you, she gets most of her information from official channels. She actually discusses it intelligently with me instead of feeling threatened that her source of income could be impaired in some way because she dares to doubt the established protocol. I never said medicine doesn’t have its place. It just needs to be expanded on. Those that are profiting from it greatly don’t want to give up any of the status quo.

    “scenario, you are bleeding profusely from an accident and juliana’s sister is there touting some nonsense about placebos, rainbows, unicorns and skittles. good luck”

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  218. “Fuck every teacher that ever did that to me. A special place in hell to them all.”

    Its spelled out in the syllabus. And post K12 you are volunteering to take the class.

    Many professors had two options: your grade was the higher of either just your exams or your exams with the work/attendance counted. That seemed to be the best strategy.

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  219. i had teachers do that to me in middle school ze, its ok, I now know that the world is full of mundane mindless tasks

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  220. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 6:51 pm

    thanks sonies. What you say, is kinda why, in retrospect, i can kinda understand the homework points. the attending class part reeks solely of the teachers self-importance.

    Like i said… My choice was always to eat the deductions. In college just know which teachers hit you least.

    As for volunteering to go to college. I thought everyone went. Mom still is angry I didn’t go med school. I still hear it every time I see them.

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  221. “and Miu… Colonoscopy… Really… Did you really have to go there? Like HD says, it’s fair to modify a touch, to protect the innocent.”

    sorry Ze, but my uncle died from colon cancer albeit at age 74 and was a life long smoker. There are few cancers with good screening tests so I take what I can : )

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  222. “tried to look at the house – sold before listed. I know two builders in hinsdale who are building a combined 9 houses – all pre-sold. They have too much business (their words). I want to know who are these people buying these 2 million plus houses!!!”

    I haven’t seen or heard this in any of the Chicago area media reports (nor seen it within the City of Chicago.) All the builders are still saying things are dead. It could be that a super small sliver of the upper market is a little more active than before. But the stock market is probably putting some fear into those buyers (or those thinking about buying.)

    I AM, however, seeing more building, especially in Lakeview. There is a new house going up on Diversey- right across from the Lincoln Park Athletic Club. It’s your typical brick $1.3 million house.

    There are also two going up on Oakdale and Greenview (on adjacent lots). Meanwhile, some new construction on the neighboring blocks (Wellington and Nelson) sit and sit.

    If you build “new” in the “right” school districts, they seem to be moving faster (as we saw with that house recently in Blaine.) But if you make the mistake of building in the “wrong” school district- good luck.

    There was a new construction house in East Lincoln Park- on Lincoln Park West, I think, that just went under contract after a few weeks but it had been listed for about 4 years and had price reductions. But that is finally selling.

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  223. “Like i said… My choice was always to eat the deductions. In college just know which teachers hit you least.”

    There are classes in college where attendance counts? I can’t think of a class where the prof even took attendance.

    “*smart* lawyers that went to top 25-30 law schools easily average 100k or more out of school. And trust me, my college riends that went to decent schools like notre dame, Emory, etc for law school , 90% of them would have never ever gotten into even the worst med school on Chicago.”

    This is a less crazy position than the prior Riz position that was something like “all med students could get in and complete any other phd/prof program.” But still, I’m with anonny. Riz, you have a very inflated sense of the specialness of med school/students. Yes, I suppose you have to do more work than getting into law school (which is basically doing well on lsats), but there’s not a lot special about it.

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  224. “There was a new construction house in East Lincoln Park- on Lincoln Park West, I think, that just went under contract after a few weeks but it had been listed for about 4 years and had price reductions. But that is finally selling.”

    Some of the places selling are where the builder bought the lot recently at a good price.

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  225. “Yes, I suppose you have to do more work than getting into law school (which is basically doing well on lsats), but there’s not a lot special about it.”

    The population of potential applicants for med school is woefully small compared to law school. Anyone can decide during or after college they want to be a lawyer. If you want to be a doctor you basically have to know that by age 18.

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  226. “There was a new construction house in East Lincoln Park- on Lincoln Park West, I think, that just went under contract after a few weeks but it had been listed for about 4 years and had price reductions. But that is finally selling.”

    I tried seeing this one also – but there was so much activity and bidding – it will be interesting to see for what it sells:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1907-N-Lincoln-Park-W-60614/home/21769696

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  227. “ah.. My pet peeve of school/teachers… The attendance/homework deduction… Nothing like getting an exam back with 100 – 32, and getting a D in something you have displayed a perfect understanding of. Fuck every teacher that ever did that to me. A special place in hell to them all.”

    That is f***ed up indeed. Actually I believe if someone aces a hard all comprehensive final should get an A.

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  228. I’m not saying that psychopharmaceuticals aren’t powerful drugs with side effects and withdrawal symptoms. In fact, the side effects may feel “different” from the depression and make you think you are better. Probably why weed is also a good antidepressant.
    But read the psychology today article above about how drug companies set up studies to get the effects they want, and if that didn’t work, just don’t publish it. But don’t dwell on that, it could give you a crisis of confidence or something. Keep believing in the integrity of Big Pharm.

    “Juliana, let’s just swap out all the pills in a depressed patients zoloft with a placebo, that way we can see if the drug actually does anythig, and we won’t tell the patient or the doctor conducting the study! Wait….oh yeah! That’s called a clinical trial and antidepressants have to go through 3 extensive phases of those to be FDA approved! Jesus.”

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  229. gringozecarioca on August 25th, 2011 at 7:27 pm

    “That is f***ed up indeed. Actually I believe if someone aces a hard all comprehensive final should get an A.”

    I did not see that coming… Thank you! Now doggie walk and a movie. Bob inspired me to watch “the dude”.

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  230. One more thing about antidepressants. Those side effects and withdrawal symptoms can be dangerous too, which is why “first do no harm” should be considered above profits. Particularly with children.

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  231. “Those side effects and withdrawal symptoms can be dangerous too”

    Absolutely. Like the guy I knew whose wife was taking them and then waxed him, their two kiddos, then herself. They had just celebrated their 20th year wedding anniversary.

    I don’t hang out with people that are big into drugs (legal or not) and/or alcohol and have firearms.

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  232. I wrote:

    “I would argue that the gamut of med-school track college majors, the mcat, succeeding in med school, and becoming board certified is not unlike preparing for and taking one very, very long bar exam under sleep deprived conditions.”

    To which Clio responds:

    “anonny – the sleep deprivation for preparing for the bar exam?!!! ARE…. YOU…..KIDDING…..ME?!!!…You have no frickin’ clue. It is like a 4th grader coming home and saying, ‘I had the toughest day – multiplication tables are so hard you don’t understand’. (sic) Sure- hard for an idiot – but not in the bigger perspective.”

    That is an example of either (i) very poor reading comp for an alumnus of Lab, Stanford, Chicago and Harvard (I think those are the claimed schools) or (ii) a disconcerting and all-too common example of the carelessness and lack of attention with which so many doctors attend to their practice. Either way, I DON’T (to use your favored all-caps) want anyone who can’t understand a simple sentence performing any critical procedures on me or my loved ones!!! (to use your favorite punctuation).

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  233. “I tried seeing this one also – but there was so much activity and bidding – it will be interesting to see for what it sells:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1907-N-Lincoln-Park-W-60614/home/21769696

    This is the house I was referencing. There was “bidding” after 4 years on the market? Wow. How bizarre.

    There is an open lot right next to it which I presume will also be built on. I didn’t care for this block. A bunch of new construction homes and some high rises. Very strange half-there street. Just up the road from the house we were just discussing at 1935 N. Lincoln but on Lincoln Park West – and NOT Lincoln.

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  234. There are dozens of new construction mansion homes just sitting out there (we have talked about some of them.) I could do a week or two or three just covering all of them in LP and Lakeview. Occasionally they sell one however. Again- it depends on the school district many times.

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  235. “Either way, I DON’T (to use your favored all-caps) want anyone who can’t understand a simple sentence performing any critical procedures on me or my loved ones!”

    anonny (MWAA)
    you’ll change your tune when you realize I may be the only one in the area that provides a certain type of treatment you or your “life partner” may need!!

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  236. anonny, I reread your post and stand by my response. What is your point? That law school is hard, right? My point is that you can’t compare med school with law school – one is much much harder than the other, moron.

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  237. sorry sabrina – I’ll try to redirect posts to real estate. We really got off-topic today!!

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  238. Med school is harder iin the sense that there is way more rote memorization. Law school requires critical thinking and analysis as opposed to med school’s ‘identify this disease’ yyour all nighter residency shifts are stupid and should be banned. Law too is known for the long hours, ie the idiom “law is a jealous mistress.” II can respect doctors and some are brilliant but it is a different kind of intelligence. I discovered that different kind of intelligence after a biology class in college, in which I did poorly vs my philosophy classes in which I did quite well.

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  239. “Again- it depends on the school district many times.”

    Yep, many families want to live in the City.

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  240. HD biology class at a second rate school does not equal medical school. Furthermore, a good doctor is someone who is able to process a ridiculous amount of data, analyze it, and form some type of diagnosis and treatment plan suitable for the patient (not in law – remember, the law is the law and everyone is treated the same). Medicine requires much much more creativity – the law is rote memory and regurgitation.

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  241. “Med school is harder iin the sense that there is way more rote memorization”

    “the law is rote memory and regurgitation”

    Everyone’s own deal *is* special. But clio’s right in this case. That House guy is a genius.

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  242. “HD biology class at a second rate school does not equal medical school. Furthermore, a good doctor is someone who is able to process a ridiculous amount of data, analyze it, and form some type of diagnosis and treatment plan suitable for the patient (not in law – remember, the law is the law and everyone is treated the same). Medicine requires much much more creativity – the law is rote memory and regurgitation.”

    Please stop. I’m sure an NBA guard would tell an NFL lineman “gee, your job is so easy” or vice versa. Until you walk in someone else’s shoes- you can’t say one way or the other. The two professions are very different. They attract different types of personalities. That’s all that needs to be said.

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  243. “They attract different types of personalities.”

    Not really, if we go only by those who comment here.

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  244. “Until you walk in someone else’s shoes- you can’t say one way or the other.”

    anonny knows someone who has a JD and an MD!! He’s going to settle it.

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  245. Now if there was a conversation involving women by now JJJ, Luigi/Marcus/Dan and half a dozen men would be complaining. I am not complaining it is end of a thread and people have said what they intended about RE and the conversation is not offensive or anything, I just was waiting to see if my theory about misogyny is live and well gets reaffirmed : )

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  246. “He was/is a douchebag, like you. Is that common in doctors?”

    Yes. Where have you been? Due to the fact that you have to be pretty damn smart and confident in your own decisions, being a doctor is highly correlated with being arrogant as fuck. I’m ok with it, though, as most of the doctors I know are pretty smart and do a pretty good job, as far as I can tell. They’re just arrogant as hell.

    “Now if there was a conversation involving women by now JJJ…I just was waiting to see if my theory about misogyny is live and well gets reaffirmed”

    You seem to take criticism pretty personally, and I guess that you’re still mad that one time I suggested that your extended discussion about cleaning methods with some other poster was a waste of space, or maybe about that one time that I made fun of you for complaining how lazy your cleaning lady is, but I’m not deriding you because you’re a woman, or not an American, or whatever bigotry you’re trying to ascribe me.

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  247. I don’t recall the cleaning lady thing at all, but I remember after a few post between jennifer and I on an old thread you were complaining that we should take it off line. I have not seen you complain about the others even though they go off topic way more.
    It is not a personal thing against you, I have noticed men can always talk about their cars, toos etc any where and women listen and don’t complain now if we bring up say a handbag or something they have to run away or complain that the conversation is two feminine or off topic. I am not sure most even do it consciously. The only off topic subject we can talk about are kids, we can go on and on and it would be fine as it fits their proper gender stereotype. A motherly woman is always a good woman.

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  248. gringozecarioca on August 26th, 2011 at 5:28 am

    Arrogance is a tell. It’s a weakness. A vulnerability. The most self confident people I have met, have a tremendous level of humility in understanding their limitations. A bizzare balance of sorts. But a balance.

    Arrogance is the guy the car dealer loves. Easy marks. Tell them how impressed everyone will be seeing them in this…… Car as good as sold.

    Of course if you tell an arrogant person this, they will then tell you they have more humility than you… It’s awesomely entertaining.

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  249. That’s sexist, moomoo.

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  250. ze, people behave very differently in public and in private – but I guarantee you that, deep down, every single frickin successful person is incredibly arrogant. In public, you won’t see this behavior because we have been groomed not to show it – but in private, these people change on a dime. Same thing happens at masquerade balls – put a mask on people/disguise them and watch the most quiet shy unassuming dork turn into a sexual monster. Here, the internet is our mask…

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  251. ok to lazy to read all the posts, i need to hit on a few point i believe;

    *Riz said “Also, pharm reps are stereotypically hot. I’ve rarely seen one that isn’t.” there is a reason 99% of guy and girl pharm reps are insanely hot. you see the same in business the face to face salesmen/women are attractive. Pharm reps get paid out more than basic sales jobs for a reason, to pull the most attractive workers. i will defer to my wife for the deeper reason into there selection as she knows alot about the pharm rep culture.

    *I want my doctor highly paid and the standards to get that degree and title insanely difficult

    *i want insurance companies all to burn in HEdoubleHockeySticks, as local points out that the revenue stream should flow to the doctors not the middle crooks

    *For all countries that cap prices on pharmaceuticals should be paying a kick back to the countries that dont because they (us the USA) fund all research with our costs.

    *dont be pissed that your prescription of zoloft cost $150. yes the pills cost $5 to make but the rest of the $145 goes to funding a person researching a pill that will cure something like the c word or athletes foot or something.

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  252. “dont be pissed that your prescription of zoloft cost $150. yes the pills cost $5 to make but the rest of the $145 goes to funding a person researching a pill that will cure something like the c word or athletes foot or something.”

    uhhh no – the rest goes to the politicians in washington and into the bank accounts of the insurance execs!!!! and yes, Groove, I know, I am ” a paid shill and should man up”.

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  253. clio, a better break down is $5 to make, $70 for a lobbyist, $30 research, $40 for bluecross, $5 for walgreens

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  254. groove – very very true. this is why people started going to different countries to get their medications!!! I wouldn’t recommend it, though, now medication fraud is popping up all over. Also, I believe it is completely illegal (even if your intentions are to use the meds yourself for a known medical condition).

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  255. i may not like you personally but i respect your profession and think highly of it

    its the insurance industry part of the medical puzzle that make me say things like “i want insurance companies and exec’s all to burn in HEdoubleHockeySticks”

    many people will just point to the docs as the “medical cost” problem but even with my limited knowledge on the subject i know thats the second to last spot to point the finger at.

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  256. Miumiu, unfortunatly, I have to agree with you. The amount of attacks on women on this site is insane (if they talk about anything that “the men” don’t want to deal with.) Yet, the men go off topic all the time (the car topic! ha! ha!) and we don’t tell them to “take it off line.”

    Double standard.

    But men are about 80% of the posters on here- so they dominate the conversation simply by sheer numbers. I wish more women would post! It would make for a more interesting conversation.

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  257. gringozecarioca on August 26th, 2011 at 7:49 am

    Clio.. there is a difference. Subtle, but defining.

    Hey.. guys just can’t talk about shoes and bags. It’s not misogynistic. I can window shop no prob, but when shoes and bags come in to play, my wife knows to go solo.

    Well I will volunteer to go to Nordstroms with her. Always enjoyed walking through the shoe department of that place. Best visuals in Chi Town.

    Now, I had a friend back in college who was the red-headed step child of our group. Hilarious guy but equally funny looking. He would walk up to every single girl in a bar though. No prob with rejection. Amazing thing, was that his parents manufactured shoes. So he would always open with a line about ‘nice shoes’ and then actually be able to back it up, I mean heel construction and leather qualities,, all that crap…. Not that he hooked up with many, but never saw a girl not let him talk to her.

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  258. Sabrina – I know this woman rolls her eyes at the boys and their toys talk and scrolls past.

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  259. Ergh. Shouldn’t post before caffeine. Should read “This woman” not “I know”. Colloquiolisms don’t always read well.

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  260. exactly scrolls past does not complain. it is all about sense of entitlement.

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  261. “exactly scrolls past does not complain. it is all about sense of entitlement.”

    This really feels like complaining…

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  262. DZ it is complaining about the misogyny not men talking about topics that are perhaps less interesting to some of us. Cannot you see the difference or you are just saying something for sake of it?

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  263. “Cannot you see the difference or you are just saying something for sake of it?”

    I really, really was just kidding. I don’t think I’ve ever complained about OT discussion, other than groove and his bodily functions.

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  264. It’s the stereotyping that makes you sexist, moomoo.

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  265. “It’s the stereotyping that makes you sexist, moomoo”

    yes men like bags and shoes too!

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  266. re: men vs women.

    Women are too nice and too accepting. That is why men bulldoze over them. Of course, when one DOES speak her mind (juliana), the men insult and bulldoze over them anyway. It is a no-win situation. Actually what works well with men is a subtle (or not-so-subtle) re-direct of the conversation. We are like dumb dogs – our attention span is a few seconds and limited to the few previous posts. Try it – you will see that it works. Men really are simple creatures – we can’t help it.

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  267. “That is why men bulldoze over them. Of course, when one DOES speak her mind (juliana), the men insult and bulldoze over them anyway.”

    The men here don’t. You and JMM do.

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  268. gringozecarioca on August 26th, 2011 at 8:30 am

    “yes men like bags and shoes too!”

    But most likely, they both have Nike on it.

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  269. G – when I was young and immature (ie yesterday) I may have taken the bait – but not today – it is absolutely beautiful outside – it is friday and fall is around the corner. It is really a great time to walk around. I think Sabrina should offer these neighborhood tours – once a week. She could get someone on here from each neighborhood to lead the tour. What a great way to learn about the city and each neighborhood.

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  270. “But most likely, they both have Nike on it.”

    hahahaha, that only my gym bag and gym shoes that have nike/addidas/lotto/keds

    my everyday “man bag” messenger bag and shoes have a different name. and yes i have a different bag for each belt and shoes i have, dont you?

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  271. “I don’t recall the cleaning lady thing at all, but I remember after a few post between jennifer and I on an old thread you were complaining that we should take it off line. I have not seen you complain about the others even though they go off topic way more.”

    Well, no hard feelings, I would hope – as I recall that was just the two of you talking about the same thing for about ten posts, and it was something that wasn’t even close to on-topic – I think that it was cleaning techniques. I would argue that people discussing broad economic trends like employment and shifting competitive advantage is a lot more relevant to real estate. However, either way, I’m not really sure how you’ve made me out to be such a misogynist, like those other dudes are racist – that’s pretty unfair.

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  272. Echoing (and channeling) clio – IF YOU DON’T SPEND SOME TIME OUTSIDE TODAY, YOU’Re A MORON!

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  273. gringozecarioca on August 26th, 2011 at 8:49 am

    “my everyday “man bag” messenger bag and shoes have a different name. and yes i have a different bag for each belt and shoes i have, dont you?”

    Well I have to admit, I do like my Messenger bag, very simple and no labels. I don’t like labels on stuff.

    Why no Asics.. my fave for running…

    See miu,, we are talking shoes and you acuse us of misogyny and saying things simply for the sake of it. Sheesh, you must be hormonal! -snickering-

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  274. lol ze…you are talking shoes and bags : )
    JJJ, sorry for putting your name in the same sentence with Dan. I think a lot of nice guys don’t even realize their double standard.

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  275. “Sheesh, you must be hormonal! -snickering-”

    ze – see what I mean about the anonymity of the internet? You would never say that type of thing in front of your wife!!!

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  276. “I was failing out of o-chem at Uof C”

    What fraternizing psi u didn’t just cheat his way through?

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  277. “Why no Asics.. my fave for running”

    went to Nike “Free” and will never go back

    “Well I have to admit, I do like my Messenger bag, very simple and no labels.”

    its my man purse i have about 7 of them. same as you no labels, as the simplicity makes it crossover from business to weekend casual.

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  278. G – how did you know I was a Psi-U? That is scary….

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  279. gringozecarioca on August 26th, 2011 at 9:27 am

    “went to Nike “Free” and will never go back…”

    My all time favorite running sneakers. I only stopped using them cause I was feeling this really bad fracture-like pain on the outer arch, just needed more support. Those things were like running barefoot.

    I need to get back on – they just had a half marathon here last weekend, and no way I miss it next year. A stunning run right down the ocean and mountains. You don’t even realize you’re running. I’m certain it will be what they use for the Olympic trail. Of course one through the favelas would add an interesting twist.

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  280. Bob 2 (Not Bob) on August 26th, 2011 at 9:29 am

    “You would never say that type of thing in front of your wife!!!”

    True, in reality it would be more like “Chill out you crazy fuckin bitch”

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  281. clio on August 27th, 2010 at 8:44 am
    “Let me guess, you were a fiji at U of C? That’s not even really a guess”

    I was offered to pledge there but chose Psi-U – a more diverse and fun group of guys.

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  282. What I find funny, clio, is that O chem was a relief after 1st yr chem since all those quality pre-meds that bailed out of honors were back in the mix, so the pace was slowed a bit.

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  283. ze,

    i tried the vibrams five fingers and its was too minimalist for me. the “free’s” fit right between a lightweight running shoe and vibrams.

    they discontinued the the nike free everyday+ ones, and those were nice to switch into if the knees legs back or feet were feeling any pain.

    I used to get custom brooks but would always develop some pain when upping the miles either knee, back, or shin. i would think it was time for new shoes. so back to the running store i went for more $$$ on custom brooks.

    i save so much money on the free’s now and they last more miles than the brooks.

    also my posture and running style have changed because of the free shoes.

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  284. lol…I love how groove and ze are really talking shoes. If only they were not running shoes….oh well…I take what I can : )

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  285. as someone who went to a big state school and was a fratboy and who also went to the institution being discussed I can say the Greek systrem at UC was a joke. those guys would’ve been the non Greek geeks at big State U and the non Greek undergrads given a can of bugspray and told to goto the basement (out of sight out of mind. aka the Milton treatment)

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  286. Bob – I know and have met numerous greeks from big state schools, etc. I can honestly say that there was not that much of a difference. There are definitely more geeks in the fraternities at state schools when compared with U. of C. – not kidding.

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  287. “lol…I love how groove and ze are really talking shoes. If only they were not running shoes….oh well…I take what I can”

    miu, would you like me to talk other shoes? but most of it is even lost on women. as i can go into different shades of brown and shades of polish the intricacies of leather on each brand?

    or would like me to go simple and say a man should never where black shoes unless its a funeral/wedding/formal event yet you see black shoes as common place and it irks me to no end?

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  288. Frats were pretty insignificant in my days there.

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  289. Top 3 worst threads in the history of Crib Chatter. This thread makes me miss Joe Zekas.

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  290. lol..grove you never fail to surprise me. first with the accountant thing and now all you shoe knowledge : ) Actually the guy who repairs my shoes asked me to never try and polish them on my own apparently my technique was too poor and the polish I had bought from grocery store sucked. He is going to teach me one of these days.

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  291. “lol..grove you never fail to surprise me. first with the accountant thing and now all you shoe knowledge : ) ”

    i didnt over pay of a home in the green zone, where else is my money going to go ;)

    wife has a shoe repair guy, i on the other hand i just buy new ones. and yes i know good quality and great fitting ones can last a lifetime, and yes i should support the local shoe repair shop. but the smell of new is so hard to resist.

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  292. clio sez:
    “Now go back to the Hamptons and drink a mint julep while playing croquet. Leave us normal people to solve the problems of the world!!!”

    1. I have been to the hamptons maybe 10 times over my life
    2. I don’t drink mint julips or play croquet
    3. YOU LOL YOU are “normal” and are solving the problems of the world!!!!????

    I guess we should all throw caution to the wind and go out and spend all of our money on dream houses if you and your brand of people are the ones left to save the world.
    What a total DB!!
    Few people surprise me through their actions or words. But I have to admit your posts here, as ficticious as they are, suprise the shit out of me.
    Not surprised in a good way surprised in a ‘I can’t believe anyone would think that never mind put their name to it.
    Thank God we have total anonymity on the ‘net.

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  293. I love mint juleps and just about any drink with mint. I might have to get some cocktails outside this afternoon. Croquet is fun enough but if I had the proverbial suburban half-acre instead of a 25×125 I’d have the bocce set out all the time. As it is, the walk to the park with the bocce set is almost as much of a workout as some time with the kettlebell!

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  294. “But I have to admit your posts here, as ficticious as they are, suprise the shit out of me.”

    Westloop,I hope you have a bag to clean up after yourself!!! (I know this doesn’t make sense if you haven’t read the other thread from today, but I couldn’t resist).

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