5 Months and a $26,000 Reduction Later For This East Lincoln Park 2/2: 350 W. Belden
We last chattered about this 2-bedroom at 350 W. Belden in East Lincoln Park in June 2011.
See our prior chatter here.
5 months later, it is still available and has been reduced another $26,000. If you include the parking, it is now listed $96,100 under the 2007 purchase price.
This unit appears to meet the “unicorn criteria” put together by anonny for units in East Lincoln Park.
The south facing duplex has both bedrooms on the second floor reached by a spiral staircase.
The kitchen has cherry cabinets, stainless steel appliances, and granite counter tops.
The bathrooms are marble and there are hardwood floors throughout.
The unit also has a private terrace, central air, washer/dryer in the unit and parking is available for $30,000 extra.
Back in June, some of you thought it would sell within 5% of that list price which was $399,000 but others thought $360k- $370k was more likely.
We’re at the later price now and still no sale.
How low will this go?
Debbie Maue at Jameson still has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #610: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, no square footage listed, duplex
- Sold in November 2004 for $544,000
- Sold in April 2007 for $470,000
- Originally listed in March 2011 for $429,900
- Reduced
- Was listed in June 2011 for $369,900 (parking is $30,000 extra)
- Reduced
- Currently listed for $343,900 (plus $30,000 for parking)
- Asessments of $480 a month (includes heat and a/c)
- Taxes of $6546
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 13×15 (second floor)
- Bedroom #2: 13×11 (second floor)
It *almost* meets the UC (the kitchen is open to the living room and there’s no powder room).
I still say that $375k (including parking) is a pretty solid deal. Who knows if the sellers have any room (be it in equity or cash) to go much lower. If they can’t, someone with patience and flexibility stands to get a steal once the short sale commences.
There’s a real give-and-take among the comps for this place. For instance, in the twin towers over on Fullerton (between Lakeview and Commonwealth), there are many 2/2’s priced lower, at, or just above this price. I’m not sure, but I think the fees are higher there, especially with parking. Yet that place is a much nicer location (it’s on the park, not on Clark), and doesn’t have floundering retail tenants on the ground. And the vintange units in the area at this price, e.g., on Commonwealth near Belden, while certainly nicer than this place, typically don’t have parking or w/d. There hasn’t been a listing down in the 3/2.5 building on Grant at Clark in a while, which would have been this place’s chief comp. It’s a ways north, but the units above the Best Buy on Clark appear to have reduced considerably (down to near this price range), and that’s a better building with nicer units (albeit in one of the crappier locations along Clark). As of today, I’d say that the recently Chattered-about sale at the atrium building on Clark between Webster and Dickens is the comp for this place. That place was much better than this place, but lacked a garage. So who knows.
Building wise, I’d want to take a long, hard look at this association’s financials, given the retail situation, not to mention the prices at which many unit owners acquired places near the peak (about whom I’d also want to do as much research as possible).
Unicorns
Black Swans
Overpriced 2/2s
All are a dime a dozen these days.
Why wouldn’t you have bought this instead?
http://cribchatter.com/?p=11602
Show them that comp and offer $299.
“For instance, in the twin towers over on Fullerton (between Lakeview and Commonwealth”
Do you have the street address for those towers? I have always been curious about that location myself.
“For instance, in the twin towers over on Fullerton (between Lakeview and Commonwealth), there are many 2/2?s priced lower, at, or just above this price. I’m not sure, but I think the fees are higher there, especially with parking. ”
Assessments are much higher and no in-unit washer/dryer.
I’ll do a post on one tomorrow since I’ve been eying the buildings. Some people have done nice renovations and there are views- but still no one cares.
Personally- I think we’ll soon see a day when even nicer 2/2s struggle to sell for even $300,000 (in Lakeview and LP.) The market for condos is dead, for all intents and purposes.
This building looks like an office building. I agree with Sabrina. The condo market is dead.
By next year, I imagine places like this will be going for the $250,000s at best. The sellers should take any offer above $300,000 (if they can get it).
The towers are at 345 W. Fullerton.
http://www.urbanrealestate.com/search/?address=60614
does that mean I should just stop reading crib chatter?
” The market for condos is dead”
“It *almost* meets the UC (the kitchen is open to the living room and there’s no powder room).”
anonny, what the hell, no (unwritten) rule against spiral staircases in the UC?
“The market for condos is dead, for all intents and purposes.”
Have you ever noticed the section at the bottom of Redfin listings? You know, where it shows properties within the immediate vicinity that are on the market, alongside properties that have recently sold? And those are just the selections that Redfin is showing. The condo market is hardly booming, but it’s certainly not dead.
“The market for condos is dead, for all intents and purposes.”
Dead? Or prices are down? Big difference.
Interesting article on the Chicago Tribune today: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-us-wealth-gap-between-young-and-old-widest-ever-20111107,0,5088133.story
Not good news for the baby boomers looking to unload their property on the younger generation…
Article above: Yeah, no shit. My family is at least $150,000 poorer than it should be due to student loans and interest paid on those student loans and there are still years more of payments to come. And I’m one of the lucky ones because I can actually them off before I die. When I tell you I have few friends at zero, the stats support it. I also found it interesting that the under 35 set has more unsecured debt than any other age group, by far. But wait, some say that student loan are no big deal, right? The average is only $25,000, which is 8 times the net wealth…
Both, dead and dropping, for all intents and purposes.
“My family is at least $150,000 poorer than it should be due to student loans and interest paid on those student loans and there are still years more of payments to come.”
How much would your family had if you never went to college or law school and were working in whatever job you could have obtained without any higher education? Boo hoo you had to take student loans to go to school. Suck it up and quit whining.
35% off the 2004 price
27% off the 2007 price.
And this is in ELP, the friggin Shangri-La of the green zone.
If there were demand at $343, this would have sold over the summer. High-300’s is now the price for 3/2.5s (see the 2131 N Clark thread).
I agree with Sabrina, the 2/2 market is DONE, DEAD.
“The market for condos is dead, for all intents and purposes.”
Really? I work in apartment investment… great place to be these days, if you’re a seller. Anyone who is investing in apartment buildings these days, is buying at close to the height of the market (rents in Chicago are higher than they have even been) and they are counting on 5+% annual rental rate increases forever… these investors are buying based upon the same thought, that the condo market is dead. I however, think that the decline in condo prices, homeownership etc. is simply a correction for the boom years. I dont think that that the trend of people towards rental housing will increase forever, and I dont think that condo ownership is dead. The rent vs. own parity will continue to be a factor in deciding whether or not a person should purchase a home.
“How much would your family had if you never went to college or law school and were working in whatever job you could have obtained without any higher education? Boo hoo you had to take student loans to go to school. Suck it up and quit whining.”
JJJ, you have a very valid point. I understand if people are complaining if they paid for a degree and could not find jobs, but certainly your job HD pays much higher than jobs one would get without a degree.
“The market for condos is dead, for all intents and purposes.”
I am not sure condo market is any more dead than town home or SF market.
Do we have data to support this or it is just an anecdote?
it will be good times for america when these greedy baby boomers all kick the bucket
I’d be living in a trailer. Got a problem with that, clown shoes?
“JJJ on November 7th, 2011 at 9:47 am
“My family is at least $150,000 poorer than it should be due to student loans and interest paid on those student loans and there are still years more of payments to come.”
How much would your family had if you never went to college or law school and were working in whatever job you could have obtained without any higher education? Boo hoo you had to take student loans to go to school. Suck it up and quit whining.”
People will always want to own, but I think people are more interested in single family homes these days… or getting a great deal on a condo. I will rephrase what I said and say that the days of condos selling at premium prices is over.
I consider the property featured here to be priced at a premium, which is why I say that the owners will be lucky if they can even get $300,000.
“My family is at least $150,000 poorer than it should be due to student loans and interest paid on those student loans”
Do you even understand what you just wrote?
“But wait, some say that student loan are no big deal, right?”
Who said that? I said you were exaggerating debt loads. And you were.
“I’d be living in a trailer.”
Assuming that it’s not an ultra-luxe trailer, do you really think so little of yourself that you believe you’d be doing so badly if you didn’t go to college?
can someone please explain the price decline from 04 to 07?
“The south facing duplex has both bedrooms on the second floor reached by a spiral staircase.”
This will limit the buyers of this unit. Older folks, people with young kids, anyone with disabilities will most likely forgo this unit.
and it would be parked near an expressway overpass
“I’d be living in a trailer.”
JP$-
agree.
FWIW-I have no issues with student loans. So what. I went to college knowing full well I would have to pay for it on the back end. Suck it up is right. You do what you need to do, no one forces you to go to college.
Of course you have no issue with student loans, AL Lord needs a bigger golf course, which he paid for because our youth has mortgaged a large of its future earnings.
And if our youth don’t have any future earnings, well then, the overlords will take whatever they can get, including your SS income or other government benefits…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/16/AR2007041601541.html
“trudi on November 7th, 2011 at 10:57 am
JP$-
agree.
FWIW-I have no issues with student loans. So what. I went to college knowing full well I would have to pay for it on the back end. Suck it up is right. You do what you need to do, no one forces you to go to college.”
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-881.ZS.html
and they’ll take your social security income too, old man. You’ll live under a bridge so that Al Lord can play another round of golf on his private course an hour’s drive outside of DC.
I’m confused on what your issue is with student loans. Is it that you can’t just default on them easily?
HD–Believe me they’ll be nothing left of Social Security by the time I am able to collect so I am not counting on a cent of it.
I wonder what the “Occupy” folks would think of debt jubilee for student debtors? Hypocritically, they’d support that bailout which taxpayers would have to eat.
Anyway, my prediction is a Democrat runs on a debt forgiveness platform since it would be great for votes, and make everyone feel good, etc. There is no way, that student debt will be repaid, it will be forgiven. Q is when?
The subject property was a condo conversion. The avg. unit sizes are small, it was designed as a rental property to max out the number of units.
The confusion arises from your dementia.
The issue with student loans, again, for the 40th time, is that we now have a entire generation of youth, who are far poorer and more heavily indebted (particularly with unsecured debt) than any other generation in history.
The consequence of national policy is outlined in the article above. It shows the gap between the wealth of older and younger generations to be the widest ever, and by far the widest ever. They the authors attribute it to student loan and credit card debt, and a lackluster job market for youths.
During the medieval era serfs were required to work a day or two a week on the Lord’s land and provide payment in kind i.e. food and wine and grain, etc, sort of a rent on the serf’s productivity. We’ve come full circle, where today’s serfs are young graduates, who have to work a day a week or more to pay the Lord, but this time it’s not the landlord, it’s Al Lord, former president of Sallie Mae.
I’m so sick of this topic, I will refrain from discussing it further. To everyone’s delight I’m sure. ciao
“chuk on November 7th, 2011 at 11:19 am
I’m confused on what your issue is with student loans. Is it that you can’t just default on them easily?”
p.s. you can default on student loans easily, just like any other debt. YOu stop paying. YOu cannot discharge the debt very easily, they call it the ‘no arms, no legs’ test and there has yet to be a case in the 7th circuit (WI, IL, IN) in which a debtor has successfully discharged student loans.
People should start rebelling against the high cost of college by not going to these high priced schools. These schools get away with charging high prices because parents are conned into thinking their kids have to go to college. If student loans weren’t so readily available, colleges would not be able to charge as much as they do now.
Yeah.. there are lots of idiots who go to colleges they can’t afford and rack up debt for degrees that aren’t worth anything, but the colleges are complicit in this arrangement.
I would go so far as to say that unless you’re getting a specific degree that will lead to a specific job, college is nearly worthless. I’ve often wondered whether parents would be better off buying their kids a house rather than paying for college.
A person could easily do my job without a college degree, yet the company I work for expects a master’s. It’s ridiculous. Fortunately, my student loans are tiny since my family was a huge help, but it was a waste of time going to school when I in an ideal world, I could have started at the bottom of some company and worked my way up.
Do you think the trolls at Prudential Rubloff in this building do what they can to hinder the Jameson realtor from showing the place?
“The issue with student loans, again, for the 40th time, is that we now have a entire generation of youth, who are far poorer and more heavily indebted”
So if the payoff isn’t worth it, why go to college? It really is very simple. Pay x to get degree, make y extra per year for z years. If the math doesn’t work, don’t do it.
‘Boo hoo you had to take student loans to go to school. Suck it up and quit whining.’
Don’t forget, these are the children of the baby boomers, and *everyone* of them are special… it says so on the trophy they got for just showing up to PE class. Best thing to do is to give them a juicy juice box and sit them in front of Saved by the Bell. Maybe one day their parents will tell them the story of coming out of high school and getting drafted into the fucking Vietnam war. Maybe grampa will tell them the story of the lovely can’t-say-no trip he and his buds took to the sandy beaches off the Normandy coast… kinda put a dent in his college dreams too. Yeah, let me get you a fruit roll up while we talk about where you wanna go for spring break…. girls gone wild dude!
“Some people need to be steered into trade schools, instead of telling every single kid that “they too can be a doctor or lawyer” when clearly it’s impossible.”
Exactly. Weren’t we supposed to have something like this by now:
” Fetuses chosen to become members of the highest caste, ‘Alpha’, are allowed to develop naturally while…fetuses chosen to become members of the lower castes (‘Beta’, ‘Gamma’, ‘Delta’, ‘Epsilon’) are subjected to in situ chemical interference to cause arrested development in intelligence or physical growth. …since these people are deliberately limited in their cognitive and physical abilities, as well as the scope of their ambitions and the complexity of their desires, thus rendering them easier to control. All children are educated via the hypnopaedic process, which provides each child with caste-appropriate subconscious messages to mold the child’s life-long self-image and social outlook to that chosen by the leaders and their predetermined plans for producing future adult generations.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World
Ha! Ignore the problem, feel no sympathy for the dumb students and all that debt will all just go away with no long term repercussions, right?
Oh wait, you mean the younger generation is now poor???
“Maybe one day their parents will tell them the story of coming out of high school and getting drafted into the fucking Vietnam war. Maybe grampa will tell them the story of the lovely can’t-say-no trip he and his buds took to the sandy beaches off the Normandy coast”
Even back when the baby boomers were 18-22, the vast majority of American kids (and this was before the third world invasion) when the country was almost 90%, even then most kids didn’t go to college.
What’s happened since then, is this numbskull notion that everyone needs (and deserves) to go to college, and the Federal Gvt. should be empowered to see that this happens. Germany is an export power because of the strength of its trades and vocational schools, and it does steer kids and society is better off than the student debacle we’ve got going.
Interesting article on net worth. Question: Does “net worth” as measured by the study quoted in the article include value of the person’s home, or just their liquid net worth?
I’m guessing it’s just liquid, but I could be wrong. I realize a lot of people under 35 are renters, so if home value is included, that would bring it down a lot. But $3,662 including the value of their home sounds too low to me even with the renters factored in.
Well, I guess I was wrong. I just checked the Pew site, and sure enough, the figures include all assets minus debts, so home value (and mortgage debt) are included.
The really depressing figure in the study is the 35-44 age group, in which inflation-adjusted net worth has fallen 44% since 1984 (from $71,000 then to $39,000 today). I’m in that age group, and it’s the time when you’re raising kids, saving for college, in your prime working years. It should be the time when you’re really establishing yourself to put together a nest egg that will someday allow you to help your kids get through college, maybe grad school, and prepare youself for retirement. But a 40 year old with just $39,000, including the value of their house, is not well positioned to accomplish these things.
LOL at the student debt Pollyannas in this thread.
HD’s making an important point, and you’re missing it. If an entire generation of young people owe huge amounts of student debt, they won’t also be in a position to buy homes. They will be renting forever. Home prices will continue to fall since money that would otherwise have gone into the housing market will go to student loan creditors. Cheap rentals are going to be the most active market for the rising generation.
A typical college grad these days has over $20k in non-dischargeable debt at 7%+. Those of use who went to professional school have a lot more than that. For instance, I went to a top 10 law school on 1/2 scholarship, graduated with very high grades, and got a job with one of the best firms in Chicago, but I still have $120k in loans at near-credit card interest (7.9%, vs. 11% on my Visa if I were to foolishly carry a balance on it.) At those rates, I’m going to be renting for years. And that’s fine — I knew the risks, and I signed all the contracts with my eyes open. But even people in my situation — young doctors, lawyers, bankers, programmers — aren’t going to be buying until early middle age. And if that’s how it is for the top couple percent, in terms of income and earning potential, imagine what it’s like for people who make the median salary for college grads.
“The really depressing figure in the study is the 35-44 age group, in which inflation-adjusted net worth has fallen 44% since 1984 (from $71,000 then to $39,000 today).”
I dunno, I think these kinds of comparisons are v v difficult. There are many potential issues, with the reliability of the survey for the purposes its being used for, with the comparability of the survey over time, with where you are in terms or recession/not, changes in composition of population, etc. etc.
Good point, DZ. It’s true the recession we’re in could really impact these numbers. In 1984, the country was thriving economically (though as recently as June 1983 unemployment had been 10%). I think economic growth was about 5% to 6% in 1983/84. Good times compared to now.
‘Even back when the baby boomers were 18-22, the vast majority of American kids (and this was before the third world invasion) when the country was almost 90%, even then most kids didn’t go to college.’
That’s very true. The only people that went to college then were the truly smart, connected, or those from wealthy families; certainly some regular kids went to, but NOTHING like today. Also, the entire notion of ‘sending your kids through college’ just didn’t exist then… the smart found scholarships, the regular kids worked, and the rich wrote a check. It was a marketing champaign started sometime in the 70’s, and like Debeers hoarding and guilt selling diamonds (a pretty common low value stone in the free market universe) to the aspiring middle classes… it worked… quite brilliantly.
Elizabeth Warren made a great comment about the the high cost of a college education: the baby boomers bid up the price for their most precious of commodities – their children. It’s not like the costs of books and pencils skyrocketed, colleges raised their prices because they *could*. Same with the stock market, a lavish wedding, big vacations, or having a big house… it was something that the wealthy did, and they could absorb the hit when times got hard (as they always do), not something for the leveraged middle class.
Back when the boomers were 18-22 in the late 60’s, early 70’s, it’s true, most people didn’t go to college (most still don’t, actually).
But it was a different economy then. There was still a lot of U.S. manufacturing, and those jobs didn’t require a college degree. While manufacturing jobs remain, many of them are now overseas. The U.S. workforce is supposed to do the brain work instead, and that requires more education. That’s why more people want to go to college, and that’s why college costs more. Increased demand leads to higher costs, just as in any industry.
Anthony Grafton sums up the situ in higher-ed:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/24/our-universities-why-are-they-failing/
He writes:
. . . vast numbers of students come to university with no particular interest in their courses and no sense of how these might prepare them for future careers. The desire they cherish, Arum and Roksa write, is to act out “cultural scripts of college life depicted in popular movies such as Animal House (1978) and National Lampoon’s Van Wilder (2002).” Academic studies don’t loom large on their mental maps of the university. Even at the elite University of California, students report that on average they spend “twelve hours [a week] socializing with friends, eleven hours using computers for fun, six hours watching television, six hours exercising, five hours on hobbies” — and thirteen hours a week studying.
For most of them, in the end, what the university offers is not skills or knowledge but credentials: a diploma that signals employability and basic work discipline.
. . . those already born into the wealthy and professional classes benefit disproportionately from the best educations. Acquire any sort of college education, and you’ll make more money than you would have if you didn’t. But don’t expect you’ll make what you would have if you had studied applied math at Stanford.
At the University of Michigan, an in-state freshman will face total expenses of $25,204, a senior $26,810. At Penn State, an in-state freshman will pay $25,416 for tuition, fees, and living expenses this year. … This year, students who borrow in order to study, as two thirds do, will end up on average owing $33,798 when they graduate—twice as much as the average debt ten years ago.
Americans … now owe almost a trillion dollars in student loans, more than they owe in credit card debt. Student debt … “is an exceptionally punishing kind to have. Not only is it inescapable through bankruptcy, but student loans have no expiration date and collectors can garnish wages, social security payments, and even unemployment benefits.”
All this to pay for an education that — as we have already seen — means little, intellectually, to many of those who are courting debtors’ prison to pay for it. The unkindest cut of all, of course, is that those who drop out must still carry the full burden of the loans that so many of them have taken out — even though they will, in all probability, earn less and fare worse in hard times than graduates. Yet even unemployment among graduates has been rising — as have rates of student loan default.
This place is a turd. Windows look like they don’t fit, shoddy brickwork, etc.
“I could have started at the bottom of some company and worked my way up.”
People don’t generally “work their way up”, at least not from my generation. Sure I know some on Wall Street and in big consulting jobs, they do okay. But as far as corp America the examples of people my age range that have “worked their way up” are quite slim.
This is because boomers who “worked their way up” aren’t going anywhere. And with increases in technology every highly compensated corporate boomer retiring need only be replaced with .3-.9 younger workers as management is quite scalable. I see it all the time: departing directors/VPs+ are NOT replaced 1 for 1, lucky if it’s .5 for 1.
This is the society that baby boomers built, intentional or not. I just sure as hell hope my generation wakes up and starts putting people in office that represent out interests and not theirs. They had their glory days and what I increasingly see is many lived it up real good and have little to show for it insofar as savings but cling to those six figure incomes as long as possible.