Buy A Rehabbed 3-Bedroom SFH For Under $325K (Instead Of A Condo): 3250 N. Drake In Hot Avondale
This 3-bedroom single family home at 3250 N. Drake in Avondale just came on the market.
Built in 1897, it has been rehabbed after being bank owned.
It last sold in May 2012 for $95,500.
This is a smaller home than some of the others we’ve seen. It has 1500 square feet and includes a full basement.
The house is on a narrower than normal 20×125 lot and has a 2-car garage.
The first floor has been opened so that the living/dining/kitchen all flow in one space.
There are dark hardwood floors. The kitchen has white cabinets, stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops.
Two of the three bedrooms are on the second level with the third on the main level.
The house has central air.
The price has been lowered $15,000 since mid-November to $324,900.
Is this a good condo alternative?
Frank Montro at Oak Realty of Chicago has the listing. See the pictures here.
3250 N. Drake: 3 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, 1500 square feet, 2 car garage
- Sold in March 2005 for $269,000
- Sold in February 2007 for $340,000
- Lis pendens filed in March 2009
- Bank owned in May 2011
- Sold in May 2012 for $95,500
- Originally listed in November 2012 for $339,900
- Reduced
- Currently listed at $324,900
- Taxes of $4203
- Central Air
- Bedroom #1: 17×13 (second floor)
- Bedroom #2: 17×12 (second floor)
- Bedroom #3: 12×9 (main floor)
I can’t decide which of the houses featured today has the worst curb appeal.
The redfin listing says it’s a narrower than standard lot at 20×125, which would explain the $95,000 purchase price pre-reno. That would limit the upside potential on this one, though it is a nice condo alternative. From the pics, though, the house doesn’t feel narrow (as city houses go, anyway).
These are all very nice rehabbed single family homes in teh city, on the north/northwest side, for less than $2,000 a month with a conventional down payment. The problem as always for parents is schools. they’re awful in these parts.
“The problem as always for parents is schools. they’re awful in these parts.”
Dude, how do you descibe the worst 20% of CPS elems, if you describe the one’s around here as “awful”? (note: not that I find them acceptable) And do so without using any reallys, verys, trulys or simliar modifiers.
For $300K this is a good deal to me. The rehab is not overly fussy, it is on a nice leafy street, close to the Belmont Blue, close to the Kennedy, short ride on the Belmont Bus to the lakefront. This place has a lot going for it.
Place is fine and I love the basement (tall ceilings are a huge plus), but WTF is up with that back “yard”? Bust up that ghetto looking concrete pad already, the whole point of a yard is to have green space, yeesh.
anon(tfo) – you are the semantics guy but I can play that game. The worst 20% are abysmal & atrocious. The 75% above that are merely awful. The top 5% which includes Bell and the magnets are marginally acceptable.
Anon(tfo): here’s a link to the elem for this home, it’s the same school for The Villa. The school is Reilly and it’s awful for anyone who wants their child to natively speaking the lingua franca of the 20th and 21st century.
http://www.cps.edu/Schools/Pages/school.aspx?id=610144
I’m curious what people’s criteria are for curb appeal. Seems like an odd category of appraisal to bring to bring to neighborhoods like this, which are full of similar worker housing.
I like the old time worker housing just fine — love it, actually — but the aesthetic value of these cottage blocks is the feel of the street. Denseness, proximity of houses to sidewalk, nice trees in the parkway, people walking, people on porches, kids in gangways, etc., can really create a nice feel. One of my favorite blocks in Logan is Palmer St. just west of the California cop shop. It looks like my ass, from a curb appeal point of view, but it’s lively and intimate.
Having said that, facade aesthetics matter, and the thing that kills houses like these is when they put in replacement windows that are smaller than original and that mess up the proportions. And the fucking plastic siding. Stuff just sucks and needs to be taxed into extinction. Frame neighborhoods in Chicago are ruined by it, even the nice ones.
“I’m curious what people’s criteria are for curb appeal. Seems like an odd category of appraisal to bring to bring to neighborhoods like this, which are full of similar worker housing.”
Nonchatterer: I’m glad you brought up that this is worker housing. The further you go from the lake, the more the housing was built for the workers. There is nothing beautiful or artistic about it (except for a few select areas that were either on the boulevard system or something like Old Irving Park.) Yet people are paying crazy high prices for it.
And what can be done with the interiors? Not much. It will still be working class housing- no matter what kitchen you put in it.
“anon(tfo) – you are the semantics guy but I can play that game. The worst 20% are abysmal & atrocious. The 75% above that are merely awful. The top 5% which includes Bell and the magnets are marginally acceptable.”
It’s amazing to me what some people are willing to accept in order to stay in the city. They say things like “it’s up and coming” when all the stats from the school are awful and no one in the suburbs would ever find it acceptable.
“The redfin listing says it’s a narrower than standard lot at 20×125, which would explain the $95,000 purchase price pre-reno.”
mda: thanks for pointing out that it’s on a 20×125 lot and NOT a 25×125 lot. I fixed it in the post.
“And the fucking plastic siding. Stuff just sucks and needs to be taxed into extinction.”
Still better than the asphalt roll.
“no one in the suburbs would ever find it acceptable.”
This is as absurd as “the city doesnt exist outside the GZ” attitude. There are plenty of gawdawful schools in the burbs, too, just not in white, UMC+ suburbs that GZ city dwellers would consider living in.
Exactly who do people think “turned around” schools like Bell, anyway? It isn’t the locals who got gentrified out, so that leaves transplants, many of whom are suburbanites. More power to them, I give anyone props who sticks it out in the City proper.
“Exactly who do people think “turned around” schools like Bell, anyway?”
A: White people
not “diversity”
homedelete: Someone could buy this place cheap, and commute their kids to any of the (liberal) GZ Catholic schools, no? The savings of over $200K versus buying directly in Lake View would cover it. Why don’t people just do this then?
“Still better than the asphalt roll.”
Oh, man, that’s an argument I’d be willing to have. Asphalt is uglier in the dirty fingernails sense, maybe. But nothing ages worse than plastic. It doesn’t hold to the form of the structure. It can’t coexist with wood trim work. It has pretensions of permanence and tidiness and pastel cheeriness when you know that underneath is a damp, festering, lead-encrusted shit heap of old siding that the last owner couldn’t be arsed to remove. (The latter may also be true of asphalt roll, but it’s not trying to fool you.)
Worse, it is a massive shit-taking on the most sacred of human crafts, domestic joinery. That we tolerate the stuff is a sign of moral and sensual degeneracy. I shouldn’t wonder that we’re naming our grade schools after gay Spanish poets.
“homedelete: Someone could buy this place cheap, and commute their kids to any of the (liberal) GZ Catholic schools, no? The savings of over $200K versus buying directly in Lake View would cover it. Why don’t people just do this then?”
Who has time to drive their kid to a GZ Catholic school every single day? Why would you want to???
And why would the GZ Catholic schools be any good? I haven’t heard of any of the GZ Catholic schools being anything to write home about. That’s another thing that makes me laugh. In the city, people will put their kid in the local catholic school thinking it’s “better” than the public school (and it might be) but it still is far inferior to many of the suburban public schools.
I’m not arguing there aren’t good Catholic schools in the city. There are. But which of them are in the GreenZone? (other than the one in the south loop???)
“Yes. If I have a 7 year old and a 5 year old and I look at those schools and I’m paying $500,000 for my house there’s no way I’m living there versus the suburbs. No way. Those schools don’t even come close to what I can get for my $500,000 in the suburbs. And if my child has any kind of learning issues- even more so.”
You might be the older generation then. See article below. Although to be fair, this doesn’t mention those that are stuck in their location due to RE market.
Truth be told we don’t have the data we need to determine whether these are truly high-earning/wealthier types with the means for daycare and willing to navigate CPS or those over-extending themselves before CPS and then dealing with said issues later.
Avondale is one of those ‘hoods so far off the beaten track for transplants like me that I liken it to Bridgeport where one can find decent newer/rehabbed SFHs for 400k. Transplants generally stay in GZ or nearby, or hit the burbs.
“The older they get, the less likely people are to live in cities, according to recent Census data. The peak age for urban living is 25 to 27, when 20% of that age group are nestled in urban centers. By the age of 41, about a quarter have moved to the suburbs.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/03/american-cities-to-millennials-dont-leave-us/1744357/
But hey I’ll throw HDs quote out there:
“The 75% above that are merely awful. The top 5% which includes Bell and the magnets are marginally acceptable.”
When his kids get into schools like NW and your kids get waitlisted at schools like UIUC becuase you wanted to live in Avondale over Wilmette guess what? There should be no doubt in your heads why.
If anything the strike a few months ago and the subsequent debacle you would think would’ve woke up some parents who want it all for their kid(s) but don’t have 200k+ HHI as to the realities of CPS and how it isn’t changing anytime soon. Yet I don’t even hear it talked about anymore.
Guess what? Karen Lewis kept her job and the teachers got their raises. And the CPS CEO lost his and you’d better believe da new ‘mare and the Penny Pritzker billionaire heiress charter school backers are spooked & in full fledged retreat now. And the CTU contract is for four years so fast forward to 2016 and same deal.
CPS ain’t gonna change and I don’t know too many ethnic poles buying 400k houses. And hopefully, one day the FHA enabled valuations in ‘hoods like these will indeed end.
“Sold in March 2005 for $269,000
Sold in February 2007 for $340,000
Lis pendens filed in March 2009
Bank owned in May 2011
Sold in May 2012 for $95,500”
And guess what? The bank more than likely sold that 2007 shit mortgage to Fannie or Freddie, so the 2005 buyer should thank his lucky stars us sap taxpayers helped him profit handsomely (& TAX FREE!). Let’s just print some more money. Maintaining housing valuations is like the drug war here: it doesn’t work but that won’t stop the government from keeping on doing what it’s doing.
The ethnic poles live in Niles, mt prospect and park ridge.
“I’m not arguing there aren’t good Catholic schools in the city. There are. But which of them are in the GreenZone?”
Francis Xavier Warde School at Old St Pat’s the West Loop is an excellent school.
“Who has time to drive their kid to a GZ Catholic school every single day? Why would you want to???”
Specific to Avondale, there are loads of good schools right on my way to work. Kid gets dropped off right in front, it’s painless.
Or, perhaps I am just smarter than the average bear.
Helmethofer:
It isn’t “white people,” it’s people who give a shit. Plenty of people across the rainbow are quite willing to do what it takes, and CPS does bus if you live far enough away (we don’t, but I wouldn’t want to be tied down by a bus schedule anyway).
“Specific to Avondale, there are loads of good schools right on my way to work. Kid gets dropped off right in front, it’s painless.”
But with all due respect skeptic, you are a minority, in the upper middle class, who has the ability to 1) own a nice SFH in a gentrifying area, 2) pay for private schools thereby isolating your children from the other resident children of the ‘hood and 3) have the ability to drive them to school yourself on your way to 4) your job, which pays a nice wage. This is the not the neighborhood, nor is this the typical CPS student. You and your family keep yourself above the ‘fray’.
There is no such thing as a good religious school. In the lower grades, they teach the bible as though it was true. In Catholic grade school, I remember being ostracized for telling the teacher that she the biblical creation stories she was “teaching” were fake. Schools teach these stories as fact, especially in the primary grades. I don’t see how anyone can label such a school as “good” or even better than the worst CPS.
“Exactly who do people think “turned around” schools like Bell, anyway?”
When was bell bad? (A sincere q.)
“I don’t know too many ethnic poles buying 400k houses.”
You “know” at least one.
When was bell bad? (A sincere q.)
In 2002, 78% of students met or exceeded standardized tests, in 2012 it was 97%. Not bad, but not what it is today.
How about Audubon? In 2002, 55% met or exceeded, in 2012 it was 95%.
How about Peirce (Andersonville’s neighborhood school)? In 2002, 53% met or exceed, in 2012 it was 82% which is actually the IL average.
“Oh, man, that’s an argument I’d be willing to have. Asphalt is uglier in the dirty fingernails sense, maybe. But nothing ages worse than plastic. It doesn’t hold to the form of the structure. It can’t coexist with wood trim work. It has pretensions of permanence and tidiness and pastel cheeriness when you know that underneath is a damp, festering, lead-encrusted shit heap of old siding that the last owner couldn’t be arsed to remove.”
Okay, here’s the argument, taken from you:
“Asphalt is uglier in the dirty fingernails sense[.] … It doesn’t hold to the form of the structure. It can’t coexist with wood trim work. It has pretensions of permanence and tidiness and pastel cheeriness when you know that underneath is a damp, festering, lead-encrusted shit heap of old siding that the last owner couldn’t be arsed to remove.” And, occasionally, giant strips will fall off.
So, basically your argument is that asphalt roll is uglier to start with but degrades less than vinyl. In other words, on a ‘beauty’ scale of 0-100, asphalt roll starts off as maybe a 10 and drops to an 5, while vinyl might start at a 15 and drop to a 5 in the same time frame–losing 2/3s of its visual value as opposed to merely 1/2.
I’d much rather have vinyl on my neighbors house than roll–among other things, it’s slightly more likely to get replaced w/o a total rehab of the building.
“with all due respect skeptic, you are a minority, in the upper middle class, who has the ability to … pay for private schools thereby isolating your children from the other resident children of the ‘hood”
Dunno whether or not skeptic has the “ability” to pay for private school, but know that skeptic’s kid goes to public.
Anyway, his was a point about the “horrible commute” of dropping kid(s) at [catholic school X/magnet school Y] on the way to work from Avondale.
We’re living the “buy in Avondale, ship kids to GZ schools” lifestyle right now. It certainly has it’s drawbacks. First of all, you either have to have enough money to pay for tuition or, like us, hit the magnet school lottery (though our first tested in to a selective enrollment we went with the magnet because little sis would be more or less guaranteed a spot). Dropping off every day is a bit of a hassle, but we deal with it because the alternative is a 45-60 min bus ride. Others we know just use the bus.
Right now little sis goes to preschool at our neighborhood school, so we see how it operates, go to LSC meetings, etc. We’d never send our kids there for later grades – it’s a mess. It could be improved greatly by getting a competent principal, though.
I wouldn’t agree that the top 5% of schools are only marginal compared to the ‘burbs. Scores of those top 5% compare well to North Shore suburbs where $500k still doesn’t get you much of a house and the property tax bill is 50%+ higher than in the city. Places where your dollar goes further have pockets of highly performing schools, but also have a ton of mediocre ones. We looked at Arlington Heights, Mount Prospect, Des Plaines, Skokie, Niles, Morton Grove, etc. and you have to look at a very small subset of the housing there to be sure to have a good elementary, middle and high school. It’s probably still the better answer for most families but not quite the slam dunk it’s being made out as.
“I don’t know too many ethnic poles buying 400k houses.” and “You “know” at least one.”
make that two.
“I wouldn’t agree that the top 5% of schools are only marginal compared to the ‘burbs. Scores of those top 5% compare well to North Shore suburbs where $500k still doesn’t get you much of a house and the property tax bill is 50%+ higher than in the city. Places where your dollar goes further have pockets of highly performing schools, but also have a ton of mediocre ones. We looked at Arlington Heights, Mount Prospect, Des Plaines, Skokie, Niles, Morton Grove, etc. and you have to look at a very small subset of the housing there to be sure to have a good elementary, middle and high school. It’s probably still the better answer for most families but not quite the slam dunk it’s being made out as.”
This is very true.
“make that two.”
I don’t know who you’re counting, but I was counting you. Anyway, while we’re on the polish thing, maybe you can clear up something. My son loves those polish slim jims for his lunch box (from the deli on milwaukee in avondale(!)), though he requires the skin to be peeled. My wife (who is not polish either) calls them kabanosky (sp?), but the internet seems to prefer kabanos. Which is standard?
Even the middling Catholic school I attended from 1st-6th grade had students who scored well above average on standardized tests. These scores fool middle class parents into thinking they are sending their kids to a “good” school. Truth is that most kids from middle class families do very well on those standardized tests regardless of the school. The standardized test scores are essentially useless for middle class parents.
“In 2002, 78% of students met or exceeded standardized tests, in 2012 it was 97%. Not bad, but not what it is today.”
WHat’s the change in cpswide or statewide averages over this time?
“I wouldn’t agree that the top 5% of schools are only marginal compared to the ‘burbs. Scores of those top 5% compare well to North Shore suburbs ”
Depends how one counts the “top 5%”–just neighborhood schools? Neighborhood + Magnet, but excluding selective? All? Nominal count of schools, or student population adjsted? If we count all of them, there are 540 CPS elementary schools–top 5% = 27. 13 are in the top 50 *in the state*, including 6 of the top 7. And the ~30th elem in CPS is in the top ~15% of the state, which is close to HD’s cutoff of “good” in the suburbs, so top 5% is only “marginally acceptable” if the not-quite best schools anywhere are only “marginally acceptable”.
I’m going to stop worrying about schools now. I saw waiting in line for my lunch the trib declared that illinois students weren’t going to ivies anyway. So nevermind.
anon (tfo): My argument would actually be that ugliness of plastic siding and that of asphalt roll differ in kind, not in degree.
Maybe, when we bought the house we were solidly middle class and it wasn’t really gentrifying. And our kid is in a public, Hamilton.
What we do have/what we did which distinguishes ourselves from the many in the hood is 1) we waited to have our kid until we were in our thirties and already had bought a fixer-upper and did a lot of work on it (hard to make time for that with a kid), and 2) we both work full-time jobs.
‘But with all due respect skeptic, you are a minority, in the upper middle class, who has the ability to 1) own a nice SFH in a gentrifying area, 2) pay for private schools thereby isolating your children from the other resident children of the ‘hood and 3) have the ability to drive them to school yourself on your way to 4) your job, which pays a nice wage. This is the not the neighborhood, nor is this the typical CPS student. You and your family keep yourself above the ‘fray’.”
“I’m going to stop worrying about schools now. I saw waiting in line for my lunch the trib declared that illinois students weren’t going to ivies anyway. So nevermind.”
Semi-related question: How much, if anything, do you contribute to your undergrad or grad school each year? Do you do so with any expectation that you’re improving your kid’s chances of admission there (even if the school(s) wouldn’t necessarily be your or his/her first choice for college, i.e., a possible saftey)?
“WHat’s the change in cpswide or statewide averages over this time?”
In 2002, 41% of CPS met or exceeded vs. 63% statewide, in 2012 CPS was 74% vs 82% statewide.
“do you contribute to your undergrad or grad school each year? Do you do so with any expectation that you’re improving your kid’s chances of admission there”
If you are donating to your law school, in hopes of getting your kid into u-grad or any grad program at the school, and it’s not enough money to name a building, you are almost certainly wasting your time in making the donations, nevermind the money.
If you are donating to your u-grad, it’s at least conceivable that it moves your kid’s app from one pile of legacy to another–but that’s still really unlikely to matter, except at the smallest of schools or with the biggest of donations.
Donations don’t matter to universities who have hundreds of millions (and in many cases billions) in endowments. But it does make a big difference to pre-school / elementary / high schools who have much smaller endowments.
anon(tfo) Guaranteed enrollment – that’s the stickler. Magnets, gifted, selective etc don’t count with school choice b/c it’s not guaranteed that your kid will get in. Where I live, it’s guaranteed my kid will attend a great school, whereas in CPS, 6 of the 7 in the state get to pick the cream of the crop from hundreds of thousands of students. There aren’t many open enrollment CPS schools that can compare to neighborhood my elementary school ranked #200, and that’s not even the best elementary in the town. Like I said, I’m not like “Oh my kids have to go to the best etc” I need acceptable upper middle class neighborhood public schooling, and I found it.
“If you are donating to your u-grad, it’s at least conceivable that it moves your kid’s app from one pile of legacy to another–but that’s still really unlikely to matter, except at the smallest of schools or with the biggest of donations.”
If you donated regularly, and were active alum, maybe it would get your kid an extra read of the application to make sure a rejection were appropriate, and maybe it would function as a v modest tiebreaker. Maybe not even that much these days. Even back in my day, the dad of one of my classmates was an extremely prominent alum–e.g. the college admin incl pres knew him, he’d received awards, etc. They were rich but not stinking rich, so prob plenty donations but nothing over the top. Their daughter, who was a v respectable student (got into a couple of different schools that were slightly below wo any legacy benefit) was not accepted.
Maybe if you can’t afford a building you could do an endowed chair. It’s a few million at the ivies, but this one seems pretty reasonable (ie less than 2*14*ParkerTuition):
http://dah.ucsd.edu/giving/Endowed%20Chairs%20FAQs.pdf
Or maybe this one. I dunno the price but I’m sure you can work something reasonble out. There’s an actual chair!
http://northcentralcollege.edu/academics/faculty/endowed-chairs
What about donating to the grade school/high school you attended in hopes of sending your kids there? How much would you have to donate to get into, Lab say? I was lucky enough to be accepted on my own, but it gets tougher and tougher to get into these schools.
On a related note, how much do you have to donate to the Berrios campaign to get your property taxes reduced?
Who in their right mind would pay $500k for a guarantee into UCSD?
“Guaranteed enrollment – that’s the stickler. Magnets, gifted, selective etc don’t count with school choice b/c it’s not guaranteed that your kid will get in”
You rolled magents in to your statement: “The top 5% which includes Bell and the magnets are marginally acceptable”. So it was unclear.
There are about 400 (some with muliple programs are listed under the speical program, so not easy to get exact number) neighborhood elems. Which then is 20, which is about the number of neighborhood schools I’d find acceptable (not merely marginally acceptable) off the cuff, barring semi-hidden defects.
“What about donating to the grade school/high school you attended in hopes of sending your kids there?”
Congratulations! We’ll have to have a CC shower!
“how much do you have to donate to the Berrios campaign to get your property taxes reduced?”
Too much for it to be worthwhile individually; that’s why you use a law firm that is a regular donor.
“Who in their right mind would pay $500k for a guarantee into UCSD?”
I don’t know how much donation for what program and school makes sense. I personally am of the opinion that if you need to donate to get into a school then you don’t belong there. That being said National Research Council , a way more serious ranking than US News, ranked bioengineering at UCSD 1.
If you had $500k to just throw at a school, why not just set up some sort of trust fund for the kid, so they wouldn’t have to bother with school? I’m assuming that the person who could give away $500k could give a kid a couple million to ensure the kid would never have to work.
“could give a kid a couple million to ensure the kid would never have to work”
take more than a couple mill jenny dear
“National Research Council , a way more serious ranking than US News, ranked bioengineering at UCSD 1”
PhD program tho, right? Little less likely to buy one’s way in to a group of what? 20? when obviously underqualified.
“why not just set up some sort of trust fund for the kid, so they wouldn’t have to bother with school?”
Why not do the same instead of sending the kid to Lab? If you have enough money, you don’t need to read or anything stupid like that, either, right?
“If you had $500k to just throw at a school, why not just set up some sort of trust fund for the kid, so they wouldn’t have to bother with school?”
What about it, nonny? Instead of spending your time kowtowing to some snooty admissions board and worrying about whether your donating enough, just save your money so that the lil nonnies can go on a neverending grand tour.
I could live off of two million for the rest of my life. If I received 1% interest, I would make $50k a year. I know it’s not much, but not having to work would be priceless.
I don’t know why the ultra-wealthy send their kids to high school or college. I would certainly want my kid to do something and not just sit around all day, but there are many more meaningful things a person can do than go to school or work.
Jenny, children that have parents that can set up a trust for $2 million are used to a certain lifestyle and are not going to live off 50k a year.
“I don’t know why the ultra-wealthy send their kids to high school or college. I would certainly want my kid to do something and not just sit around all day, but there are many more meaningful things a person can do than go to school or work”
Don’t even know how to respond to this.
“Don’t even know how to respond to this.”
“thank goodness she’s in the ‘don’t want kids’ camp”?
“I could live off of two million for the rest of my life. If I received 1% interest, I would make $50k a year.”
I’d like to see the math of how 1% of $2,000,000 is $50,000.
Fred, didn’t even catch that one. LMAO
Typo…yeash…
“What about it, nonny? Instead of spending your time kowtowing to some snooty admissions board and worrying about whether your donating enough, just save your money so that the lil nonnies can go on a neverending grand tour.”
Oh no, no, even if we had it, we wouldn’t be giving large sums of money to our college/grad almas. I was thinking more along the lines of “instead of just giving $20 a year or whatever, should we give $100 a year?”
“I’d like to see the math of how 1% of $2,000,000 is $50,000.”
A 40 yo (not that our jenny is, yet) women could readily buy an annuity that paid $50k for much less than $2mm. I’d assume she’s not too concerned about the next generation. Problem is inflation in the out years.
“Oh no, no, even if we had it, we wouldn’t be giving large sums of money to our college/grad almas”
Methinks DZ was referencing FWP/Latin at ~$25k per + inflation. Seems that, with growth, that’s be well north of $500k for each kid over the 14 years.
Assuming frugality, do you think it would be possible for someone to live a lower middle class lifestyle with $2,000,000 in the bank for 50-60 years?
“A 40 yo (not that our jenny is, yet) women could readily buy an annuity that paid $50k for much less than $2mm. I’d assume she’s not too concerned about the next generation. Problem is inflation in the out years.”
In her example it was a kid graduating from HS. many more years than some 40-something old maid.
“Methinks DZ was referencing FWP/Latin at ~$25k per + inflation.”
Yeah, that was certainly the snooty admission board part. The donations was more wrt college, but I guess it doesn’t amount to that much anyway.
“FWP/Latin at ~$25k per + inflation. Seems that, with growth, that’s be well north of $500k for each kid over the 14 years.”
Wow. That much. That’s really a lot of money!
“I was thinking more along the lines of “instead of just giving $20 a year or whatever, should we give $100 a year?”
I’m going to say it makes no difference at all. So you might as well blow the $80 on popcorn at lpzoo. Does your alma even really contemplate legacy prefs? Some places I think don’t even really ask about it.
“Assuming frugality, do you think it would be possible for someone to live a lower middle class lifestyle with $2,000,000 in the bank for 50-60 years?”
Stupid topic, probably yes if they didn’t mind eating cat food for the last 10 years and lived like a hermit. You need to take into account 60 years of inflation. Who would want this type of lifestyle anyway?
“I’d assume she’s not too concerned about the next generation.”
My working assumption too. I was thinking she was planning on living another 50 yrs, so planning to take the 1 percent plus the $2MM/50. I know that’s not quite right in future years, but close enough.
And I think if jenny’s got her additional 50 years in, esp free from work, she’s prob ok w euthanizing at that point. I’m guessing she thinks something along lines of “it’s disgusting old people expect to sit around and collect social security that i have to pay for”.
“Assuming frugality, do you think it would be possible for someone to live a lower middle class lifestyle with $2,000,000 in the bank for 50-60 years?”
My concept of your concept of LMC based on what you post here? Or a genuine LMC lifestyle in a trailer park somewhere, shopping at the Super Wal-Mart, drinking quarter beers with Bob and relying on medicaid and a USF mobile phone (aka obamaphone) b/c you have very little income, despite having substantial assets?
The former, perhaps; the latter definitely.
“Assuming frugality, do you think it would be possible for someone to live a lower middle class lifestyle with $2,000,000 in the bank for 50-60 years?”
With one caveat, I think you could easily live a nice lifestyle if you didn’t have kids, elderly parents, etc to worry about, esp if you could move somewhere cheaper than chicago. You could live in different countries etc. One issue as I see it is healthcare but maybe that’ll be fine w changes.
“In her example it was a kid graduating from HS.”
Two examples: 1. the 14-yo (note: no need to grad HS, per jenny) with a “couple” (in the CC world where “several” means less than 2, couple can be construed to be as “couple, two, tree”, so up to about 4) million
2. jenny, living on $50k/yr out of her $2mm scratch-off ticket net winnings.
Alright, I see how got the $50k number. I assumed that you just wanted to live on the interest, but your thought was you would use the principal as well. Given that, $2m / 50 years would be be $40k/yr until your money ran out. Average out the shrinking interest, so that 1% would get you close to $20k the first year, but less than $400 the last year.
So yes, that would be $50k/yr (if you saved the first 25 years and spent the last 25). The question is not whether its reasonable to live on $50k right now, but with inflation, will it be enough in 50 years. $50k went a lot further in 1962 then it does today. I imagine it won’t go as far 2062.
“The question is not whether its reasonable to live on $50k right now, but with inflation, will it be enough in 50 years. $50k went a lot further in 1962 then it does today. I imagine it won’t go as far 2062.”
I’m sure jenny meant a real interest rate of 1 percent.
“Or a genuine LMC lifestyle in a trailer park somewhere, shopping at the Super Wal-Mart, drinking quarter beers with Bob and relying on medicaid and a USF mobile phone (aka obamaphone) b/c you have very little income, despite having substantial assets?”
Your definition of a “genuine” LMC lifestyle is more along the lines of working class.
The question is a bit dumb. $2MM in bank yields what 20k/year this year? Oh yeah and you gotta juggle that between eight different banks as FDIC limit is 250k/yr.
Depending on the area you need not live in a trailer park. You could easily live in a $700/mo 1/2 bedroom in lower cost of living area, and pre-paid phones are now down to $40/mo. But vehicle expenses/gas/insurance/etc and it gets tough (not many lower CoL areas are as walkable/public transit friendly as here).
The question is if you had $2MM in assets why in the hell would you want to keep it in a bank account yielding zero? You could put it in oil stocks with a (relatively) safe 5% yield and earn 80k/year.
Despite all the global warming hype oil isn’t getting displaced any time soon. Oil stocks will be harder to kill than even the tobacco ones and they’re dying hard as it is.
“relying on medicaid…b/c you have very little income”
I haven’t kept up. Has asset testing gone away? Is going away?
“Assuming frugality, do you think it would be possible for someone to live a lower middle class lifestyle with $2,000,000 in the bank for 50-60 years?”
Yes. Without kids, it could be practically lavish. And even if you have kids, there are a number of highly desirable places where one could (i) raise the kids and (ii) live out your empty nest decades with a better than lower middle class lifestyle. Abroad, there are numerous options, obviously of varying stability/security, but right in this country, there are lots of beautiful, turtle-free places one could buy or build a new home, place enough in one account for property taxes/upkeep, then put the rest into an annuity or some such.
“The question is not whether its reasonable to live on $50k right now, but with inflation, will it be enough in 50 years. $50k went a lot further in 1962 then it does today. I imagine it won’t go as far 2062.”
To put things into perspective the average salary in 1962 was $6,670.
“Assuming frugality, do you think it would be possible for someone to live a lower middle class lifestyle with $2,000,000 in the bank for 50-60 years?”
You’d better not be frugal with your legal expenses to shield your assets from means tests on govt programs. I know from a relative’s experience medicare does & there’s a substantial lookback period.
“I haven’t kept up. Has asset testing gone away? Is going away?”
Nope. It has not as of a few years ago. Cleaned out my grandma’s estate because the proper estate planning wasn’t done ahead of time before the asset testing lookback period. Bad estate planning = poof, gone.
I haven’t kept up. Has asset testing gone away? Is going away?
No. No one with $2M in the bank is eligible for Medicaid.
“Your definition of a “genuine” LMC lifestyle is more along the lines of working class.”
Isn’t that what the lmc really is, just like the umc is the rich (but not filthy rich)? 80 percent is the middle class.
“you gotta juggle that between eight different banks as FDIC limit is 250k/yr.”
I think you could spare an hour out of the week to tend to your different statements.
“pre-paid phones are now down to $40/mo”
Used to pay $8.33/mo for my wife’s phone.
“Your definition of a “genuine” LMC lifestyle is more along the lines of working class”
What’s the distinction between “lower middle class” and “working class”? Isn’t it just that those who perceive themsleves to be LMC think themsleves somehow better/better-off than the working class? Yes, obviously one can rent a “real” apartment/house in all sorts of fine smaller cities/towns for very little.
And, since I guess it wasn’t obvious to some, it was intended to be moderate hyperbole, to set it apart from what I guess “jenny the CC character” sees as LMC.
My grandma’s roommate in her final nursing home got the same thing for essentially free as she had no assets. Same treatment, same everything.
Y’all better wake up to the fact that means testing in govt programs is out to screw you over if you’re an upper middle class earner or diligent saver. Whether it’s an incremental 15c in SS benefits for every dollar paid in as you approach the higher wage bases to medicare asset testing, to the amount your kids qualify for financial aid depending on your income and savings.
So keep trying to be decent men in an indecent time. I see the disgusting system for what it is and want to tear it down.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmj96t_decent-men-in-indecent-times-from-the-dark-knight-2008_shortfilms#.UL_QmIbAvnA
“I haven’t kept up. Has asset testing gone away? Is going away?”
Not an endorsement of accuracy, as I haven’t done independent research; see the third para
http://assets.newamerica.net/blogposts/2012/lifting_the_medicaid_asset_test_a_step_in_the_right_direction-66214
“The Affordable Care Act will yield major and important policy changes for Medicaid eligibility beginning in 2014 – including the elimination of the asset test for the class of people covered by the eligibility expansion and the standardization of the income test at 133% of the federal poverty line.”
“What’s the distinction between “lower middle class” and “working class”? ”
I have some friends in LMC who manage to have their own mortgage (via FHA no less, lol), some of whose kids are in college (maybe 40-60% go). Vehicles tend to be 4-8 years old and they’ve occasionally bought new (in better times). Some drink at bars as regulars. Some even have retirement plans and balances, although these are typically small, usually under 50k. Their younger kids generally don’t go wanting for the latest toys unless its a $500+ new console. Not typically users of payday loans/cash advance places. Frequently married if in LTRs.
Working class tend more to worry about their yearly rent increases, or how they’re going to pay for their next car repair. Vehicles tend to be 10+ years, never bought new. They generally don’t drink at bars unless special occasions (or they bowl and have no children/liabilities). No retirement funds. Their younger kids definitely go wanting for the latest toys. Users of payday loan/cash advance places as well. Frequently not married if in LTRs (SURPRISE urban SWPLs you’ve got a bit in common with them 🙂
“What’s the distinction between “lower middle class” and “working class”? ”
I knew bob would have a handle on it, but I can’t tell if I’m lmc or wc. I don’t have a mortgage, my car is (almost) 9 y.o., I got into an extended debate about the cost of a car repair recently, and I’m not a regular at a bar. So that says wc. On the other hand, maybe I’m lmc since I’m married, have a retirement plan, and I’m (perhaps) about to give my son an iphone for xmas.
This discussion is just plain depressing, why would anyone who is given 2 million dollars just want to sit around and try to live a below average lifestyle. My husband and his siblings each inherited more than this. They all work, we both work, we all have a great lifestyle, I would not trade any of it to sit around all day and clip coupons while watching judge judy. ugh!
I’m not wc or lmc I’m wt: white trash
And I have to admit that I never in my life had an an academic discussion about the difference between wc and lmc. We are all a bunch of amateur sociologists. In one of my weaker moments I’d almost suggest we have a gz crib chatter Xmas meet up at some bar after work on a Thursday. But that’s probably an awful idea, you know, the drinking, the fraternizing, the angry wives as evey man hits on Jenny, the drunken Xmas revelry and comradery. And holiday spirit and of course baileys Irish creme and stories of times past and posts over the years , and the eternal mystery of ‘who was Steve heitman?’ And will G show up ? And wow miumiu is super hot and anon(tfo) is super buff and no sonies isn’t 6’5″ he’s actually 5’5″ and I don’t really live in long grove. yeah, bad idea
“Isn’t that what the lmc really is, just like the umc is the rich (but not filthy rich)? 80 percent is the middle class.”
Whoever has the iron fist on this wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_middle_class#Social_class_in_the_US_at_a_glance
cites 2 out of 3 sociologists who clearly disagree with you (and me!), BUT writes:
” the middle class may be divided into three sections in vernacular language usage. In this system the term lower middle class relates to the demographic referred to as working class in most sociological models.”. Which seems more accurate, in post-modern America, to me–I don’t see the meaningful difference between LMC and WC except–possibly–in job/family/health stability; that is, anyone who might be objectively LMC today, would be WC within 90 days if they lost their job, got seriously ill, got divorced, where the WC *today*, with stable family, health, job over a period of years would be seen as LMC.
Of course, taking a Marxian model, *everyone* (except some of the “rich” and sainted “small business owners”) is potentially the working class.
“baileys Irish creme”
Oooooh, tip of the hat to the firecracker! Watch yourself, my friend.
“tip of the hat to the firecracker!”
That of course is the answer to when bell was not as good–when the firecracker was in residence.
See, these are stories that would make for good times. Except don’t mention the firecracker to mrs hd. That was a different life, a different time, 14 years ago before stoic homebody mrs hd
I consider myself lmc….make about $50k a year. I have an older car, but go foreign vacations (in the off season), and buy gadgets (which I usually budget for). I would be OK living this lifestyle forever as long as I didn’t have to work. I still worry about money and making sure I’m saving enough.
Those who mentioned the health insurance issue though are right… Someone with that much money wouldn’t pass a means test and one illness could wipe out a huge amount of the savings.
Jenny why haven’t you yet met a good, rich man?
“I consider myself lmc….make about $50k a year.”
You make basically the median household income, with a below median household size. Which means, even after adjusting for Chicago cola and fixed expenses of HH regardless of size, easily median income per person.
Are we really taking the position that nearly 2/3s of USA is LMC or “worse”?
“I consider myself lmc….make about $50k a year. I have an older car, but go foreign vacations (in the off season), and buy gadgets (which I usually budget for). I would be OK living this lifestyle forever as long as I didn’t have to work. ”
Solid MC. LMC only goes on foreign vacations if they’re to Bahamas/Mexico and/or company sponsored (and believe it or not there are LMC jobs that take them to all inclusive resorts in these places from time to time, esp. in sales, at least pre-2007).
50k for one person is plenty of income, provided their personal finances aren’t a wreck from CCs. Look at it this way: if you could go out tomorrow and qualify for and buy a new luxury car if you didn’t have any debts aside from credit card debt, regardless of whether you would, could you? At 50k in your situation likely yes: you could theoretically go out and buy a new BMW 1-series or an Acura TSX. People that could buy these vehicles new are by no stretch of the imagination lower middle class.
Hah… I would love an Acura TSX. I have no debt except for a mortgage, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable spending $30k for a car. I like buying used cars and paying cash. Loans beyond a mortgage make me nervous.
I don’t know how other people live who make less money than me. All of my friends seem to make more.
“I don’t know how other people live who make less money than me. All of my friends seem to make more.”
Which is how people who make $300,000/year feel like they aren’t making very much money, too. See: that UofC prof; a large %age of NYers.
“but I wouldn’t feel comfortable spending $30k for a car. I like buying used cars and paying cash. Loans beyond a mortgage make me nervous.”
Yes but my definition, by car, is based on whether you could, removing preferences. And you could do this. I could also use definition by vacation types but as even expensive ones are small relative to a new car as an expenditure.
But generally UC and UMC can & do take vacations and family vacations to places that require a full passport (outside Canada, Mexico & the Bahamas that can use the card) and solid MC types such as yourself who have limited liabilities. Whereas other solid MCs don’t goto these places, and neither no LMC or WC.
And heck the economy has dealt such a blow to all but the UC that I’d bet the UMC isn’t taking as many family vacations to expensive locales ie: Swiss Alps anymore. Perhaps they’re “slumming it” in Whistler, BC or the Slovenian Alps.
So if you’re seeing deals on places that used to be more expensive for you, it’s because families simply aren’t going as much. Both here in the US and the EU. Yeah there are travel deals for those willing to do the legwork.
Jenny: Just because a drawlin’ y’allin db bitches b/c his grandma had to pay for her nursing home care doesn’t mean you must worry about means tests for medical insurance in retirement – there is a diffence between Medicare (no means test) and Medicaid (means test). Oh the injustice that in this day and age a R of such regal lineage was required to pay for her nursing home care whilst it is common knowledge that absolutely every D in the nursing home was living the high life commmpletely on the taxpayer’s nickel!
“Which is how people who make $300,000/year feel like they aren’t making very much money, too. See: that UofC prof; a large %age of NYers.”
Don’t forget poor raj gupta among his hedge fund and ceo friends. He’s just as poor as jenny is, in his own way.
That’s why I live in logan. I’m solidly mc+ to umc here. Even my 9 y.o. car is mc here.
My burb is upper middle class in certain areas but not flashy except for the overabundence of Xmas lights.
“But generally UC and UMC can & do take vacations and family vacations to places that require a full passport (outside Canada, Mexico & the Bahamas that can use the card) and solid MC types such as yourself who have limited liabilities.”
Bob- you clearly haven’t traveled in a very long time. You need a “full passport” for every country not the United States of America now- and have for years- that includes Mexico and Canada.
Also- if there are deals on travel in places like Europe it could be because the Spanish have a 26% unemployment rate so they’re not really, you know, up for travel at this time.
“My grandma’s roommate in her final nursing home got the same thing for essentially free as she had no assets. Same treatment, same everything.”
You know what this means right? She was broke. Poor. Had no money. Didn’t have a house. No car. No nothing.
Right now, you can’t have more than $2000 to your name to qualify. They take all your social security money to pay for the housing and they give you $90 a month to live on. But yes, the housing is subsidized by the government (i.e. the government makes up the difference the poor person cannot pay.) When you die- you have nothing to leave to your children/heirs.
And there is something like a 10 year look back period for Medicare and Medicaid estate planning to give away all your assets to qualify for government Medicaid. I’ve had numerous families make the mistake of putting mom in the nursing home not realizing that the state of il has a lien on the house and they’re upset when they inherit nothing.
“You need a “full passport” for every country not the United States of America now”
Um, no:
http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3926.html
Just cant *fly* anywhere without a “full” passport. Which fits with Bob’s point even if he wasnt exactly correct.
“There is no such thing as a good religious school.”
Here we go again…..why is it then, that Rahm Emanuel send his kids to conservative religious school where they teach arch-zionism and the Bible? Are you saying that Rahm made a terrible decision and that he’s stupid? Why does Brandeis even exist? A bunch of OT-thumping religious nutjobs, right?
“Just cant *fly* anywhere without a “full” passport. Which fits with Bob’s point even if he wasnt exactly correct.”
Thanks anon (tfo). I didn’t even know such a card existed because I don’t drive into other countries- I just fly. 15 years ago Canada and Mexico used to take a birth certificate (even if you flew) but I knew they changed that requirement after 9/11.
PS One reason to send a child to a religious school, is so they can avoid being indoctrinated by secular fundamentalists. Many of these nutjobs like to teach anti-science and full-blown denial when it comes to hot topics (i.e. abortion, differences between races, homosexuality, etc.) thereby dumbing down the students and force-feeding them a politically-correct list of doctrine/dogma (false, of course) that rivals any religion out there in its severity. Today’s secular fundamentalism rivals Mormonism in its inflexibility to consider science and outside points of view.
“I’ve had numerous families make the mistake of putting mom in the nursing home not realizing that the state of il has a lien on the house and they’re upset when they inherit nothing.”
I think it’s funny that they’re “upset” they’re not inheriting anything- when the state is paying anywhere from $4500 to $8000 a month for their loved one to live! Who do they THINK is going to pay for that otherwise? What if grandma lives there for 5 years? It’s correct that they should look back a bunch of years.
“Why does Brandeis even exist?”
Ivy league quotas, no?
“magnet school lottery (though our first tested in to a selective enrollment we went with the magnet because little sis would be more or less guaranteed a spot)”
mda, which magnet school, if you don’t mind saying? And what do you like or not like? We’re doing cps applications now. Not that we have to rank or pick among magnets right now, but schools are on the mind.
jenny: It would be child abuse to send a kid to the Lorca school, and let those people fill a child’s mind with their idiotic secular agenda which has all the attributes of a religion. It ought to really wake people up that a CPS school was named after a gay spanish poet….and even thought Spaniards are White Europeans and their language derived from Latin, the choice of Lorca for the school was also done to push pro-hispanic racial “diversity” crap. Some assimilation on their part. You’d be literally insane to let these people anywhere near your child’s brain.
By the way- someone mentioned that Tribune article about the Ivy League schools earlier in one of these threads.
It basically confirms what I’ve been arguing for years on this blog. Parents obsess about getting Little Johnny into the #1 high school in the state when it really doesn’t matter if they go to #1, #20 or #40. They’re going to go to the same Big Ten school or small liberal arts college anyway.
The stats in the article were fascinating.
For the class of 2012, New Trier only sent 24 students (out of 1000) to the Ivy League. Hinsdale Central sent 16. Naperville North just 7. Stevenson sent only 12.
North Side Prep, the #1 high school in the state, just 9 students (but it was 4% of the graduating class- which was among the highest of the public schools.)
UC Lab School sent 12% of its class or 14 out of 120. Illinois Math & Science in Aurora sent 8% (out of 195 in the class.)
It didn’t list what Latin sent – so maybe it was even less than these others that the article DID mention.
Why pay all that money for Latin if your kid is going to go to the University of Colorado or Iowa State anyway? Why not just sent him to Lane Tech? Or Lyons? Or Homewood Flossmoor High? Why not save the money?
“a drawlin’ y’allin db bitches…”
Classic. Wow, interesting description Southbound. Funny how when you get called something like: a complete-f’n-idiot-jewbag….you get all hysterical. hypocrite.
“It basically confirms what I’ve been arguing for years on this blog.”
Indeed it did. I was shocked about that stat that on 16 kids were attending Princeton from WI and IL. That’s incredible. Think of how many valedictorians that puny number doesn’t include!! Amazingly small.
Hey Sabrina…I was in DePaul’s student center last week on Wed. November 28. The place was deserted, so I asked the barrista in the cafe where everyone was. The answer: The students were already done with school, not to return until January. That’s over one month off, maybe they even left BEFORE thanksgiving. I have no idea what that $30K tuition is buying, certainly not class time, studying, or homework.
“It didn’t list what Latin sent – so maybe it was even less than these others that the article DID mention.
Why pay all that money for Latin if your kid is going to go to the University of Colorado or Iowa State anyway? Why not just sent him to Lane Tech? Or Lyons? Or Homewood Flossmoor High? Why not save the money?”
Didn’t see a count reported by latin. anonny? Saw one for fwp. Roughly 50 over 5 years, so 10 per year out of typical class of 80, so 1 in 8, so on par w lab. I don’t know that it’s “causal” of course, but still v much on the higher side.
http://www.fwparker.org/page.aspx?pid=4728
What about ivy admissions from our local Catholic high schools? Or do they all just automatically go to Notre Dame or Georgetown?
“Why pay all that money for Latin if your kid is going to go to [non Ivy school that won’t impress people for whom Ivy schools are the sole measure of academic success and a promising future, most of whom neither attended nor know anyone who attended any Ivy]?”
The above question sounds much like the “why pay all that money for an English/philosophy/etc. degree? What job is that going to get you after graduation?” mentality. It’s depressing on so many levels.
I agree with Anonny. The Ivy obsession is strange to me… though less strange than Jenny’s belief that there are more important things to do with a life than work or study.
Maybe it’s a generational thing and because I don’t have kids, I’ve missed the changes, but is there really that big a difference between an Ivy outcome vs a top tier non-Ivy or a top small liberal arts college?
Big 10/state school I get.
“why pay all that money for an English/philosophy/etc. degree? What job is that going to get you after graduation?”
Biglaw cog? (After considerable further expenditures.)
“Big 10/state school I get.”
Did you got to big 10?
No, I just mean I get there’s a different dynamic at play in the admission criteria at a state school and more variety in the student body.
The issue with private school ivy admissions is that the number of kids accepted can vary wildly by year. There are special admissions officers for the elite schools and admission often depends on whether the special admissions officer likes your high school. For instance, the year before I graduated from lab, no student were accepted to Harvard (since the special admission office who liked Lab was on sabbatical)…the next year, the woman who liked Lab was back and 12 student got in.
I don’t buy into the Ivy school dream. If I was a parent, I would much rather pay for a private grade/high school that appreciates each kid’s uniqueness and teaches kids to think creatively on their own. For college, I would encourage the kid to go to a state school since to me, college is what a person makes of it.
“Why pay all that money for Latin if your kid is going to go to the University of Colorado or Iowa State anyway? Why not just sent him to Lane Tech? Or Lyons? Or Homewood Flossmoor High? Why not save the money?”
*GASP* But what are the stepford housewives to brag about if lil timmy isn’t at the BEST school?
“Saw one for fwp. Roughly 50 over 5 years, so 10 per year out of typical class of 80, so 1 in 8, so on par w lab. I don’t know that it’s “causal” of course, but still v much on the higher side.”
What’s with the mutual admiration bt FWP and Wesleyan? Also why so many Yale and so few H & P (cue Ze’s comment on elis)? And no Dartmouth, at all. All seems strange.
“what are the stepford housewives to brag about if lil timmy isn’t at the BEST school?”
Isn’t Boulder still the best for daily skiiing and top ten for daily toking? Maybe the stepfords wouldn’t brag about it, but seems pretty ok to me.
Also, putting Boulder and Ames in the same sentence almost hurts.
^lol
Dartmouth barely qualifies as Ivy and Brown is no better than a state school.
“Isn’t Boulder still the best for daily skiiing and top ten for daily toking? Maybe the stepfords wouldn’t brag about it, but seems pretty ok to me.”
Colorado College might be nearing brag worthy territory. I’d love for a kid to go there, despite it being in C. Springs. I think they’d love it too, provided they were able to make the drive to Boulder or the mountain towns often enough.
Realized I forgot one thing–with CO decriminalizing, have to think that Boulder would be #1 in both.
Not that I’d ‘brag’ about it in so many words.
“Brown is no better than a state school”
Got admitted but said no thanks? Know alot of Brown alumni or current students?
For my own selfish reasons, I hope my kids go to school somewhere that I’d love to visit often (as noted above, there’s CO College, and Stanford, or even Berkley, which would offer the benefits of Bay Area/Nor Cal awesomeness and a tolerable drive to Tahoe (albeit twice as long as C. Springs to some resorts)). We’ll have roughly 8 years where at least one kid’s in college (I hope), and I imagine vacation spending will be curtailed during those years, so the kid visits will ideally serve dual purposes. But, if they don’t see it that way, and want the northeastern college experience, Brown seems like a pretty attractive option. There’s a coast, a cool town, artsy types from Rizdy to hang out with, and I think one can create one’s own major at Brown.
“why so many Yale”
The j beals, j ames, pipeline, no doubt.
“Dartmouth”
Doesn’t fit w fwp vibe (which I’m not entirely sure of but I think of as a little artsy etc., nonny?)? And maybe wesleyan does, though I can’t recall its reputation v well.
“Dartmouth barely qualifies as Ivy and Brown is no better than a state school.”
You have to start w cornell if you’re going to criticize.
“artsy types from Rizdy to hang out with”
That’s your planned activity during your parental visits when you’re waht, in your 50s?
“and I think one can create one’s own major at Brown”
I’m not sure you even have to have a major. Barely have to take any classes.
I went to an Ivy – only kid from my HS to go to one (out of 200). My wife went to an elite boarding school – 5% of her class went to HARVARD. Probably 1/3 of the class went to Ivies with the rest going to elite non-Ivies. At her school there were college admissions counselors working with HS students from freshman year to target entrance into the Ivies. Latin doesn’t publish numbers (and neither do the elite boarding schools) because they don’t want to broadcast the elitism. But paying $25k / yr (not including the “suggested” donations) for Latin or Exeter or is worth it to most wealthy families. New Trier is not in the same league as those schools.
“Dartmouth barely qualifies as Ivy and Brown is no better than a state school.”
that totally reminds me of this Simpsons scene (sorry no U-tube, just sound)
http://download.lardlad.com/sounds/season10/getana11.mp3
“neither do the elite boarding schools”
Many of them do publish, incl wo checking, andover and exeter. We’ve discussed their numbers.
“rest going to elite non-Ivies”
Some definitely go to non-elite schools.
Ha, DZ, maybe only some of the time. It’s more that the kid would have cool Rizdy friends. Basically, when we go for visits, I will have failed in life if my kids’ top priority is hitting the school football game on Saturday.
“Latin doesn’t publish numbers (and neither do the elite boarding schools) because they don’t want to broadcast the elitism”
We’ve discussed the Philips Exeter stats on here before. They have been available in the past.
LOTS of postings of matriculation lists in the forums at collegeconfidential.com
“I’m not sure you even have to have a major. Barely have to take any classes.”
What? 1 class per year (assuming 4 year plan) less? How is that a big deal?
Is there any “elite” college that *doesn’t* let you design your own major? Or is that mostly passe?
DZ – you are correct. Didn’t realize they publish the data. Looks like 2011 Andover = 25% Ivy.
“What? 1 class per year (assuming 4 year plan) less? How is that a big deal?”
iirc, at least in olden days, brown was 28 credits, while others were 32 or 36. Non trivial difference between 36 and 28.
yoss: do you have a kid at latin? nonny really wants to get his kid in there (I think more fwp than latin, but let’s not focus on that for the time being). Please do what you can.
Nice comparison chart for (aome) boarding schools here:
http://matriculationstats.org/boarding-school-stats
None have 100% “elite” matriculation.
Tabs there to NYC day schools and non-NYC day schools. Looks like it’s the usual NYC suspects + Roxbury Latin with the best “elite” stats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gUqwNcgzfI
Simpsons Brown University
” brown was 28 credits”
They must have bumped up; but they still want to ensure no one works *too* hard:
“To encourage risk-taking in the planning of educational programs, or to provide a degree of flexibility in individual programs, the minimum number of course credits that must be successfully completed for graduation has been set at 30. (Successful completion means a course completed with a grade of A,B,C, or S.) The maximum number of courses that may be completed in eight semesters is 40. A student may choose to take a minimum of three to a maximum of five courses in a particular semester”
Those are some impressive #s.
The issue with Brown is you can drop a course at any time before the final without it ever appearing on your transcript. You can also take all classes pass / fail if you want.
“Tabs there to NYC day schools and non-NYC day schools.”
Latin chicago ivy rate reported at 11 percent, similar to fwp and lab (neither of which are in that table, for wahtev reason).
“The issue with Brown is you can drop a course at any time before the final without it ever appearing on your transcript.”
Didn’t you used to be that even an F resulted in no appearance on the transcript? Just no credit and it disappears? A problem if you only took 3 classes, but notsomuch in a smester with 5.
” I will have failed in life if my kids’ top priority is hitting the school football game on Saturday.”
wow you really are setting your self up for disappointment aren’t you?
I’d hate to be your kid… sheesh
Don’t know about the F part. But given their policy on dropping courses there shouldn’t be any Fs to begin with. If you are close to failing just drop it.
“wow you really are setting your self up for disappointment aren’t you?
I’d hate to be your kid… sheesh”
I think nonny would actually be fine w the football scene at brown, which I imagine is mostly hoity tailgating w fur coated alumni. It would be a good scene for solicity for your financial advising biz too.
“Don’t know about the F part. But given their policy on dropping courses there shouldn’t be any Fs to begin with. If you are close to failing just drop it.”
Well, if you looked at the final and didn’t think you could get an A or whatev your target grade was, you could just write to prof to please fail me. But, that’s in the purely hypo world where brown students cared about grades.
Well according to nonny, anyone attending a football game is clearly a failure in life, so maybe not the best place to go prospecting…
“mda, which magnet school, if you don’t mind saying? And what do you like or not like? We’re doing cps applications now. Not that we have to rank or pick among magnets right now, but schools are on the mind.”
LaSalle Language Academy. The principal and the teachers are great and they hold the students to a high standard. Everyone gets foreign language instruction 5 days a week and the kids take a trip abroad in 7th or 8th grade. They place around 70% of kids in selective enrollment high schools (around 30% in “elite” schools like Northside, Payton, Jones and Whitney Young).
On the downside, some parents have told us there isn’t enough emphasis on writing in the upper grades, which is seen as a consequence of the focus on ISAT scores. Also, the school’s fate is up in the air because nearby Lincoln is overcrowded and the school is ideally situated to serve that attendance area. It’s part of being a CPS school. As a district they’re $700 million in the red and they have 400,000 kids to educate so there’s always a chance you’re going to be one of the losers when they implement a solution to one of their problems.
“Well according to nonny, anyone attending a football game is clearly a failure in life, so maybe not the best place to go prospecting…”
I’m guessing the median non-student attendee is at least as well off as D#2, so in your sweet spot. Gotta be better than cold calling. And the canapés alone are worth it.
“Also, the school’s fate is up in the air because nearby Lincoln is overcrowded and the school is ideally situated to serve that attendance area. It’s part of being a CPS school.”
Info truly appreciated. The impact would presumably be mainly if you had a sibling that you wanted to get in? They wouldn’t just cut the program, right? They would phase out over time? Also, if you have any views on differences between the two lasalles, I’d be interested too?
DeanOldsnotDan/ siegheilHelmuthead said “a drawlin’ y’allin db bitches…” Classic. Wow, interesting description Southbound. Funny how when you get called something like: a complete-f’n-idiot-jewbag….you get all hysterical. hypocrite. ”
Dannie boyo: It is hysterical to realize how difficult it is for you to remember facts given your limited intellect and your need to just hate away a significant portion of every day whilst you still need to deliver those pizzas. I don’t care about whatever irrelevant drivel you choose to post but as previously posted I am like yourself a former south sider educated in Catholic schools & of Irish heritage (hey when I visited Dublin its mayor attended synagogue so maybe you are correct). Nah you remain the preening queen of the always wrong cc DB’s.
ChiTownGal asked “What about ivy admissions from our local Catholic high schools or do they just automatically go to Notre Dame or Georgetown?” I don’t believe there is anything automatic about it – our kids didn’t go to Catholic HS but in my experience the competition a few years ago to get admitted into ND / GT was only slightly less than getting into the ivies & legacies receive preferential treatment. GT wait-listed our child who attended ND (and 1st’s accomplishments & connections allowed a non-qualifying sibling admission via transfer into ND). I was previously a ND hater but our experiences there (unrelated to athletics!) converted me to love it – I believe our kids received a far superior education, greater opportunities for internships & better preparation for life than they would have gotten at U of I (which their counselors & I pushed) or elsewhere. And I believe their career arcs have benefited too.
“Well according to nonny, anyone attending a football game is clearly a failure in life…”
No, no, no. *I* will have been a failure if a highlight of my kids’ college years is cheering on other people playing a sport, and after graduation donning their black North Face jacket to go meet up with friends to watch games at the school’s satellite/alumni bar on Lincoln Ave or in whatever city they eventually live, and so on. Now, if the kid ends up actually playing on the team, that’s another story (a la Jeremy Bloom).
“The impact would presumably be mainly if you had a sibling that you wanted to get in? They wouldn’t just cut the program, right?”
Most likely, they’d move the LaSalle I program to a different school, likely to be co-located with another. Having looked into it a little bit, Jenner’s new building makes a lot of sense, locationally and capacity-wise. But being at the “cabrini school” isn’t as desirable.
I would be quite pleased with my child if he graduated from a big ten university, was successful early enough to live in lincoln park and afford a $120 fleece jacket and some $5 beers at the local watering hole. Millions of successful people enjoy watching football on their days off from work and school, whats your beef?
You have no perspective of how shitty your kid could possibly turn out if you would feel like a failure if he enjoyed cheering on his alma mater in football on saturdays while attending a college that the top 10% of high school students get to attend.
I just looked up the stats on LaSalle vs. Lincoln.
96% of Lincoln students meet and exceed state standards with 68% exceeding.
vs.
95% of LaSalle students meeting and exceeding with 55%+ exceeding.
Surprising
“You have no perspective of how shitty your kid could possibly turn out if you would feel like a failure if he enjoyed cheering on his alma mater in football on saturdays while attending a college that the top 10% of high school students get to attend.”
Nonny prefers to cheer for championship squash. Means Trinity is on the list.
The initial proposal Re: LaSalle last year was to stop sibling preference and give all spots to local folks. They would have opened up an additional kindergarden class in LaSalle II to make the overall # of language magnet spots the same. That didn’t make LaSalle or Lincoln happy. Now Lincoln wants a new building in the CMH development…I don’t see them getting it, but that should give enough time for little sis to get in before anything else happens.
LaSalle II is supposed to be modeled after LaSalle I and appears to have improving test scores. The location is pretty nice too. It would be on our list of schools to apply for.
I’ve heard the idea of moving to Jenner floated when it seemed like CPS was moving forward with making LaSalle a neighborhood school. Personally, I don’t think it would be well received by the local community to move in a student population with 18% low income to their brand new building. They already butt heads with the Skinner North folks.
Viajos – what’s surprising about the scores?
mda, I was surprised to see Lincoln doing a bit better. Both are obviously great schools.
If our kid doesn’t get into L, P or CC in a couple months (or if admitted, we determine it’s a financial impossibility), I will become as passionate about Lincoln’s expansion plans as some people are about other peoples’ sporting endeavors (I imagine there’s already some fairly uppity Lincoln parent activists involved; we’ll make those folks look like deadbeat absentee parents, and won’t rest until the new Lincoln makes the new Ogden look like a dump).
“Nonny prefers to cheer for championship squash. Means Trinity is on the list.”
That’s where the sister of my park ave friend who I said would be the perfect kid for nonny went to school. Why did she go there over slightly better schools she got into? She wanted to play for the squash team! (Though I don’t think it worked out). They really were the epitome of the nonnyspirational family.
Now, I don’t think I know anyone who would have been a good kid for sonies. One of our neighbors sometimes flies a northwestern banner, though not w a lot of gusto. But as long as they have bars w flags and satellite dishes on lincoln ave and north face is still in business, it should not be hard to find someone.
PS Thanks, mda!
anonny – Why aren’t you considering the British school?
“Why aren’t you considering the British school?”
Is that even in Chicago? If they have to go that far west, may as well just move to Hinsdale.
Hah! It is only 1.2 miles from Catherine Cook but with that new Target and the effing bike lane on Halsted it might take 20 minutes longer during rush hour.
“Is that even in Chicago? If they have to go that far west, may as well just move to Hinsdale.”
But you know he loves the YWF and I’d bet REI too, plus maybe they use NMPG too, and I’m sure they want to need to buy an iOS device once in a while. So super convenient.
“Now, I don’t think I know anyone who would have been a good kid for sonies.”
If he’s moved out of my house by 19 and has a job I’ll be pleased as punch… seriously, some of you guys have insane expectations, i’ll laugh when lilnonny becomes a meth addict in his first year at UW-madison because his overbearing helicopter parents never let him do anything by himself without parental supervision
Vlajos – Due to the way proximity is factored into the magnet lottery, LaSalle is made up in large part of people who live in Lincoln Park, but there are still a fair number of folks from less assuming places (like Avondale). Lincoln is entirely made up of people who can afford to (and do) live in Lincoln Park. Well, not only Lincoln Park, but the Lincoln attendance area of Lincoln Park which is a whole additional level up. It’s like pulling your student population from Wilmette.
“i’ll laugh when lilnonny becomes a meth addict in his first year at UW-madison because his overbearing helicopter parents never let him do anything by himself without parental supervision”
Some truth in this (not specific example but generally). jon bon jovis daughter caught with her-o-won in her dorm freshman year. and think it only happens to celebrities?
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-16/news/ct-tl-north-shore-heroin-20121116_1_heroin-overdose-heroin-forum-glenview-women
If you want google the booking photos of the two young girls caught shooting up at the dairy queen. It should allay any suspicions that those who do this aren’t “my kind of people”.
Helicopter parents who don’t let their kids be kids are going to cause all kinds of problems going forward, I have a nagging suspicion. (And if your kid preps for their schools like most do for college admission they might just be burned out on the whole thing by the time college rolls around).
“Bob- you clearly haven’t traveled in a very long time. You need a “full passport” for every country not the United States of America now- and have for years- that includes Mexico and Canada.”
Incorrect–sounds like you’re the one with a dusty old aged passport sitting at the end of the bookshelf, Sabrina.
http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3926.html
Brown not a go better place
Dartmouth too athletic for fwp and latin
Cornell don’t u dare knock my Marriott f&b program
Lasalle good mag
Drop the kid at British and eat and use the wifi with the artist having meetings at the Wf cafe
Don’t forget ultimate and field hockey
And speaking kids and ivies–my guess, from my anecdotal observations, is that the Ivy brand is over-rated for most that attend. I have a relative who went to an Ivy for undergrad (not HYP). Now they’re in a top-20 law school (non-ivy) in their late 20s.
Obviously finances aren’t an open discussion but not coming from a wealthy family, I’d imagine they’ll be drowning in debt by the time they’re my age. The student loan debt bubble is going to take a terrible toll on the population that is traditionally defined as the MC/UMC. The debt has to be repaid, no matter what, and you aren’t getting sympathetic treatment from the taxman at 75k+ income levels.
Thanks mda, that makes a lot of sense.
“Obviously finances aren’t an open discussion but not coming from a wealthy family, I’d imagine they’ll be drowning in debt by the time they’re my age.”
Imagine away, but for many of the ivies, no loans or v limited loans are required for lower income families.
“Imagine away, but for many of the ivies, no loans or v limited loans are required for lower income families.”
‘cept my uncle is still working at 70 and said he’s going to work til he dies. And it’s not exactly the line of work that attracts people who do it “for the love of it”.
“i’ll laugh when lilnonny becomes a meth addict in his first year at UW-madison because his overbearing helicopter parents never let him do anything by himself without parental supervision”
Prolly the only time I will agree with Bob……
“‘cept my uncle is still working at 70 and said he’s going to work til he dies. And it’s not exactly the line of work that attracts people who do it “for the love of it”.”
Not knowing much about them, I dunno what the financial reasons are why he’s working. But assuming, as you said, they are not wealthy, they’d get a fair amount of financial aid, and most of the ivies (I don’t know if true for every last one or for the one that matters in this case) have policies attempting to limit the loan burden. So in terms of whether she’d have a lot of college loans, I’d bet not.
Law school is a whole nother thing, but it’s certainly possible to get a biglaw job from a ~20th school.
“Prolly the only time I will agree with Bob……”
Fear not–wasn’t my quote that was a re-quote from above.
bob your right!
At what point does a parent realize their kid is not ivy/top tier material? Once they realize it, do they then start readjusting their lives and expectations? Do you start questioning if it really makes sense to spend the money to move to the North Shore or wherever because regardless of how great the schools may be, Junior definitely won’t be shooting higher than Northern Illinois?
If you have expectations that your 5 year old will go Ivy, basically setting yourself up for failure. And to be quite honest who really cares, in the end whats best for the child is that he grows up happy in a supportive home- and does what he wants in life. These people that want this or that for the child is basically living vicariously through them.
Pretty wide range between the Ivy/top tier and NIU, no? I also think there might be some pleasant aspects of living in the New Trier area besides college admission prospects.
“Millions of successful people enjoy watching football on their days off from work and school, whats your beef?”
nonny wants a few ballerinas like our mayor Rahm.
“These people that want this or that for the child is basically living vicariously through them.”
I’d like at least one of my kids to put him or herself through medical school using the proceeds of his or her pro surfing career, then perform life saving procedures in far flung, impoverished lands, before signing on with whatever’s the top private space travel company as the on-board surgeon, then settling down back on Earth as a part-time artist and part-time heli-skiing base camp doctor (while providing as much contact with our grandchildren as we desire).
“I’d like at least one of my kids to put him or herself through medical school using the proceeds of his or her pro surfing career, then perform life saving procedures in far flung, impoverished lands, before signing on with whatever’s the top private space travel company as the on-board surgeon, then settling down back on Earth as a part-time artist and part-time heli-skiing base camp doctor (while providing as much contact with our grandchildren as we desire).”
Why don’t you just adopt Clio, I think he has already done all than and then some.
Have you ever been to Madison? Don’t think meth is something you really need to worry about. More of a 4:20 vibe.
“Have you ever been to Madison?”
And beer, beer, beer.
And beating up the star running back, so that’s a plus for anonny–not *too* much football reverence.
What are the odds the people who end up buying this will raise a kid who goes to Brown, anyway? I bet not even Vegas bookies would touch that one.
My sister lives in Avondale. Her oldest child went to St. Andrew and now attends Jones. The second child is still at St Andrew. It will be interesting to see where he goes for school. If he doesn’t test into a magnet, my guess is Gordon Tech.
“Incorrect–sounds like you’re the one with a dusty old aged passport sitting at the end of the bookshelf, Sabrina.”
Nope- just returned from outside the country Bob. But I don’t tend to go to Canada, Mexico or the Bahamas- which are the only countries that take this “card” apparently. And when I do go there (Quebec City is wonderful!)- I fly. I have no need for the passport card.
Who cares about Ivy undergrad? Isn’t it the Ivy or Stanford grad/law/med/MBA degree that really puts one into the big time? I figure that an Ivy or Top 20 school gives someone a 0.5 GPA advantage over a state school. You can get a 3.4 at Northwestern and that equals a 3.9 at U of I. Of course, these relative scores will be reflected in the LSAT, MCAT, and GMAT anyway. IQ is all that matters, these schools don’t want the “diversity” crap they want to force upon the Chicago Fire Dept. No, they want the “best and brightest” and the “most qualified” for their world, but such hypocrites, they’ll stick us with quotas and low IQ morons who cannot pass a test when it comes to the guy who shows up to save your life in a fire.
Helmethofer has a point here, although I’d add that there are a not-insignificant number of legacy students like GW Bush who aren’t exactly on the high point of an IQ bell curve. And this isn’t my opinion, my brother is a Yale MBA, he said it’s pretty well-known around campus who the legacy dolts are. These are the well-connected old money types who have made a mockery out of the value of an Ivy League MBA from the United States, which used to be the gold standard, internationally.
How long do you think it will take the up and comer countries to realize they don’t need to send their best and brightest to America?
“Isn’t it the Ivy or Stanford grad/law/med/MBA degree that really puts one into the big time?”