This 3-Bedroom French Normandy is the Most Expensive House For Sale in Galewood: 1901 N. Newcastle
This 3-bedroom French Normandy single family home at 1901 N. Newcastle in Galewood recently came on the market.
It had been for sale previously- between 2009 and 2011.
Built in 1948 on an oversized corner lot measuring 37×125, it has hardwood floors throughout the first floor and crown molding.
There is a marble fireplace in the living room.
It has the preferred layout of all three bedrooms being on the second floor.
The listing also says that there is a bathroom on each floor but it looks to have 1 full bath and 2 half baths.
There’s a family room in the finished basement.
The house has central air and a 2-car garage.
At $360,000 it is listed at $70,000 under its 2007 purchase price.
Will this house find a buyer now that the market is hot?
Christine Todde at Century 21 Grande Realty has the listing. See the pictures here.
1901 N. Newcastle: 3 bedrooms, 1 bath, 2 half baths, 2000 square feet, 2 car garage
- Sold in April 1997 for $210,000
- Sold in May 2007 for $430,000
- Previously listed from 2009-2011
- Currently listed for $360,000
- Taxes of $5667
- Central Air
- Bedroom #1: 15×14 (second floor)
- Bedroom #2: 14×10 (second floor)
- Bedroom #3: 13×12 (second floor)
- Family room: 20×11 (basement)
This is an overpriced home for a middle class neighborhood. There’s hardly anything under $360,000 in old Irving, oak park, river forest or western Evanston. No leed homes built here
“There’s hardly anything under $360,000 in old Irving, oak park, river forest or western Evanston.”
Really? In Oak Park? I haven’t looked lately but one of my friends was trying to sell a 3/1.5 frame Victorian in western Oak Park last year. They re-did the kitchen (cherry, granite, stainless steel) and it was as low as $280,000 and on the market for 3 or 4 months before they decided to take it off the market and rent it instead. I know the market has changed since last summer, but I would be shocked if suddenly it was selling for $350,000. They paid $205,000 for it in 2001.
But you’re right- inventory is low for anything under $350,000 in those towns and also in the western neighborhoods of Chicago.
But I suppose nothing in this market should shock me.
I’ve never heard of Galewood. The house reminds me of the style of house where I grew up, in Peterson Park. If the neighborhood is as safe as the northwest side neighbors, the price seems attractive.
HD: This is the most expensive home in that neighborhood. But what SHOULD it be listed at?
Should people be paying $400,000 for Jefferson Park? Or Albany Park? Those are middle class neighborhoods but that’s not a middle class home price.
There does not appear to be a link to the listing.
Galewood is a nice area and this is definitely a larger home for the area but I think the updating needed and lack of a second full bath will take the selling price to the lower $300k’s.
If we were still looking for a home I’d be very interested in seeing this but seeing that we were able to buy a similarish home except bigger with a bigger lot in north Oak Park for around $500k and there are several similar places currently listed in N. OP in the $400k’s I see few people willing to pay $360k here.
I’d be fine with Galewood over Oak Park, but I know many people that think Galewood is somehow similar to Austin, even though it isn’t and wouldn’t ever consider it even though prices as lower than in OP and it is plenty safe.
Also, HD, there are MANY homes in Oak Park under $350k! They may be small or need work, but they definitely exist. I know one person who just had an offer accepted on a 4 bedroom 1 bath 3 story Victorian in OP that was listed at only $300k.
…but what would the taxes be on this house if it was in Oak Park?
Oak Park taxes on a place like this would be 3x as much though
And I don’t get whats so great about Oak Park, you still have shitloads of transient wierdos from austin wandering around your house all day while you’re at work, I wouldn’t feel safe in a SFH there in terms of having my shit stolen or garage broken into on a regular basis, thats for sure. Oh and did I mention the fucking horrible taxes?
Taxes run about 2-2.25% in Oak Park. Sonies, let me count the ways. Four options for commuting (blue, green, metra, and 290) easily into the city. Beautiful architecture. Great downtown area and amenities. Artsy and diverse culture. Good schools.
It is city living. So no it ain’t like living in Schaumburg or Naperville, but then again most people who choose Oak Park would cut their wrists if they had to live in those boring ass suburbs.
What is a middle class income in Chicago?
“What is a middle class income in Chicago?”
Icky! How’s that wiki coming along?
“What is a middle class income in Chicago?”
Something between $30k and $150k for HHI, depending on who you ask.
I think it takes about $100k a year before a person starts being able to live a middle class lifestyle.
This is an interesting map showing income by neighborhood: http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Chicago-Illinois.html
Yes, taxes are much higher in Oak Park, ridiculously so, but you do get better schools.
I think it is smarter to buy the same house in Galewood over OP for less money and lower taxes but many would disagree.
“Something between $30k and $150k for HHI, depending on who you ask.”
That’s a really big range. I guess if you are single $30K might be middle income.
“takes about $100k a year before a person starts being able to live a middle class lifestyle”
It’s all about defining ‘middle class lifestyle’. And thinking about what the minimum threshold for that is.
Some would say it includes paying for kid(s) to go to college–I’d say no way.
Some would say “own a house with bedroom for every kid”–maybe, if not more than 3 kids.
Own that house in the ‘best’ school district? No.
Family Vacation involving air travel every year? No
If living in SFH, two cars, and a new one every 5 years? Maybe
Private elementary/high school? No way
Savings 10% of gross for retirement, etc.? Probably
Being able to afford, even if involving credit, to pay for a new furnace if it dies, without having to make major sacrifices? Yeah.
Maybe that takes $100k if you have 3 kids, but not with no kids.
Middle class threshold for me:
-Foreign trip every year
-New car every 7-10 years
-Own a home
-Buy gadgets as they come out without really thinking about money
-Eating out 3-4 times a week at a sit down restaurant
-Saving 10-15% for retirement
-Having a small brokerage account for fun
-Have enough cash in a checking account to pay for a year’s worth of mortgage/taxes
-Pay for large veterinary bills/be able to take pet to a specialist if needed
I only have about half of these things. On the other hand, my middle class friends/family have all of these things.
“I think it takes about $100k a year before a person starts being able to live a middle class lifestyle.”
“Middle class threshold for me:
-Foreign trip every year
-New car every 7-10 years
-Own a home
-Buy gadgets as they come out without really thinking about money
-Eating out 3-4 times a week at a sit down restaurant
-Saving 10-15% for retirement
-Having a small brokerage account for fun
-Have enough cash in a checking account to pay for a year’s worth of mortgage/taxes”
These do not compute together in my mind. I would definitely consider myself middle class if not upper middle class and the tax bill on our house is $15k alone without thinking about a year of mortgage too in our checking account. Why have that much $$ sitting in a checking account anyways…wouldn’t it be better at least in a savings account that at least earns a pittance of interest? Also, a foreign trip EVERY year just to be middle class?!?
HD, this home in Oak Park for under $350k seems right up your alley…..
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Oak-Park/1230-N-Oak-Park-Ave-60302/home/13274251
or if you want a little more space and better finishes, I’m sure this will go for under $350k as well….
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Oak-Park/417-S-Humphrey-Ave-60302/home/13267044
HD, this home in Oak Park for under $350k seems right up your alley…..
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Oak-Park/1230-N-Oak-Park-Ave-60302/home/13274251
….or if you want a little more space and better finishes, I’m sure this will go for under $350k as well….
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Oak-Park/417-S-Humphrey-Ave-60302/home/13267044
Jenny, I want the same lifestyle for my own family but I’m coming to realize that one must be part of the middle/upper class or upper/middle class in order to obtain these things. The middle class as we once knew it is disappearing, and soon everyone will either be in the upper/professional class or the lower class of wage slaves who barely get by.
Going forward, professionals will have to make sure to keep their skills and connections up to date so as to avoid falling into the abyss of $12/hr or lower jobs with no benefits. This will only get harder as time goes by. Modern corporations no longer need armies of workers, so the semi-skilled worker-bees that were the middle class a few decades ago no longer have a place in the modern economy.
The money doesn’t have to be in a checking account…just liquid assets that one can freely access. I wrote a list of things that were important to me – you can replace the foreign trip each year with purses and shoes.
I have been having a difficult time keeping a year’s worth of mortgage/taxes liquid these days because I want to travel and buy gadgets and then the errant vet bills come in for a few thousand dollars and I have to re-think my vacation/gadget buying.
I compare myself to my parents who can afford to help me with my vet bills, while still going on foreign trips every year and having the money to pay cash when they need to buy a new car.
I would just define middle class as some range around the middle of the income distribution, but I know that’s not how people think of it. Agree generally w @fo list. I would say middle class families should be able to afford for their kids to go to college. Not to pay for it outright, but afford it. Not easily afford it, but able to pay for it wo coming out w crazy debt for parents/kids. But college is getting relatively more expensive, so harder to afford.
I would think if you had at least $50k in liquid assets which I think would be a minimum (if not more to meet a minimum) to safely cover a “middle class” mortgage and tax bill for a year, one could absorb a vet bill, or gadget purchase without having to rearrange vacation plans. Perhaps when planning the vacation, they won’t choose the most expensive hotel but I doubt many people with over $50k in liquid assets completely trash vacation plans over a $1,000 vet bill….
“Jenny, I want the same lifestyle for my own family but I’m coming to realize that one must be part of the middle/upper class or upper/middle class in order to obtain these things. The middle class as we once knew it is disappearing, and soon everyone will either be in the upper/professional class or the lower class of wage slaves who barely get by.”
It should go wo saying, but it’s not like the middle class ever had what’s on jenny’s list. A little hard to assess bc hers is a single person’s list, but still.
“Middle class threshold for me:”
That’s *totally* *without doubt* an “upper middle” lifestyle–at least. I wouldn’t describe my life/income as less than ‘upper middle’, and I don’t feel comfortable affording all of that.
What do you consider yourself now? “Working poor”?
” I would say middle class families should be able to afford for their kids to go to college. Not to pay for it outright, but afford it. Not easily afford it, but able to pay for it wo coming out w crazy debt for parents/kids.”
That’s *really* a tough one, because in many many cases (even excluding the CHYMPS), it’s more ‘affordable’ to a genuinely poor family than a family with a $100k income.
Very good point tfo!
“it’s not like the middle class ever had what’s on jenny’s list”
Bingo. And it’s *absolutely* not a reasonable minimum standard. It’s certainly a reasonable *aspirational* standard, and achieving it would not (imo) move one into a “rich/wealthy” class (ie, I wouldn’t say you’re “too rich” to call yourself ‘middle class’; tho some certainly would), but it’s nutso to say “if I can’t have at least that, I’m *LESS THAN* ‘middle class'”.
also, tying back to the post, if Jenny’s minimum were the *actual* minimum, this place would be a slightly below average ‘middle class’ residence.
“it’s nutso to say “if I can’t have at least that, I’m *LESS THAN* ‘middle class’”.”
I guess she means less than MC among her lab school-northwestern cohort.
“That’s *really* a tough one, because in many many cases (even excluding the CHYMPS), it’s more ‘affordable’ to a genuinely poor family than a family with a $100k income.”
Yeah, I recognize that sending 2 kids to state schools is a lot more challengning now than 20 years ago. But what proportion of kids go to college? Gotta to be well over half, so seems reasonable as a definiing characteristic of the middle class.
I grew up upper-working class/lower-middle class, and we took a foreign trip pretty much every year. Those trips didn’t always include a ride on the Maid of the Mist, but we’d at least spend time at the nicer side of the Falls.
“That’s *totally* *without doubt* an “upper middle” lifestyle–at least. I wouldn’t describe my life/income as less than ‘upper middle’, and I don’t feel comfortable affording all of that.”
agree, that list is def. upper MC
I consider myself to be “low income.” If I were making $100k a year, I would feel a lot more comfortable.
I still can’t imagine being single and having kids on that salary though. $100k for a family with one stay at home parent would probably be adequate for a lower middle class lifestyle though. Otherwise, childcare for one kid would likely eat up at least $20k a year.
Is Canada considered a foreign trip? Mexico? Or must one go beyond a neighboring country?
Jenny’s list sounds decided upper middle class/lower upper class imho. In Chicago, I think $100k HHI is middle class. That is basically a teacher and a cop income. You aren’t broke, but $100k is not the same $100k from the 80’s yuppie days either just like $1 million doesn’t really go that far anymore either.
OTOH, I know a lot folks who are in that $200-$400k range who absolutely consider themselves middle class. They drive 10+ year old cars. Don’t wear the overly fancy clothes. They just make enough to save more for retirement/emergencies but definitely aren’t hanging out P Diddy popping Cristal. Some have bigger mortgages, but that is about it. However, I also know plenty in that income bracket who have two Bimmers, bigger mortgages, and for the most part are living pay check to pay check.
“$100k for a family with one stay at home parent would probably be adequate for a lower middle class lifestyle though.”
You are so detached from reality.
“Is Canada considered a foreign trip? Mexico? Or must one go beyond a neighboring country?”
It is for the MC, not for the JMC though. In nonny’s day prob didn’t require a passport or much other id.
Jenny, if you are low income, what is Joe Schmo who flips burgers at McDonalds or serves soup at Panera?
I too don’t get why people love oak park. Does nothing for me. Get old house in need of space and updates with really high taxes. no thanks. With that being said, if it is in a nice park of Oak Park, there is no way you are getting a 3 bed for less the 425
Does Canada count as a foreign trip? What about my 5 day all inclusive mexico groupon vacation??
c, what about the house on Oak Park I listed? North Oak Park, 3 bedrooms, not near Austin, perfectly livable as is for under $350.
Yes, it needs updating but it is livable as is for a small family.
Benjiman said ” one could absorb a vet bill, or gadget purchase without having to rearrange vacation plans. Perhaps when planning the vacation, they won’t choose the most expensive hotel but I doubt many people with over $50k in liquid assets completely trash vacation plans over a $1,000 vet bill….”
Alright then what is the budget for a family of 4 to go on vacation (domestic) involving airfare assuming that you are in the middle class?
“I think it takes about $100k a year before a person starts being able to live a middle class lifestyle.”
That’s ridicoulous. You need to get out of whatever bubble you are in and really see how people live.
Jp3, must it include airfare? I would have considered myself mc growing up but family trips were always in the car or once in an RV. I suppose that is harder to do these days with gas prices not at 0.85 but the gas prices are raising airfare too.
“sending 2 kids to state schools is a lot more challengning now than 20 years ago”
Let’s send the kids to NEIU, because they can live at home and take the bus from Galewood, or teh Forest Park house:
http://www.neiu.edu/NEIU%20Departments/Administrative%20Departments/financial-aid/coa/index.html
Back out room and board, personal and health insurance, bc the kids are living at home, it’s still $12,000 per year, on a 5 year plan. If 2 kids are in school at the same time, $24,000/year isn’t really ‘affordable’ at $100k hhi, even with maximizing the income tax bennies. “Doable”, yes, but with multi-year sacrifices on the “Jenny requirements”.
And if they go *anywhere* they can’t commute to, it basically doubles, making it impossible unless one saved aggressively for that since the kids were born.
This is all relative. But living in the GZ and being single, I would say close to 100k is required to be upper middle class. After taxes, 100k amounts to about 6400/month. That allots you about 2750 for mortgage/taxes/assessments. Assuming normal assessments, taxes and 20% down, that puts you in a place for about 350k. Add 25k for parking. 500 or 600 for the BMW 5 series lease. Insurance and other household utilities at about 500. Save/invest 20% of gross =1600. Leaves you about 1000 a month to spend. Obviously your housing could be lower, you could do without the car, save/invest more or less, etc.
Benjiman – Good response and by car was my original thought. I rode on a plane for the first time at 15. Prior to that it was all car related trips. Does a middle class trip today have to involve airfare and a destination over say 750 miles? Or are most middle class trips departing from Chicago revolving around a car ride to the Ozarks on the SW, Minnesota lake on the NW, Michigan lake on the NE and some park in TN on the SE?
“Alright then what is the budget for a family of 4 to go on vacation (domestic) involving airfare assuming that you are in the middle class?”
It’s not too bad if you accumulate frequent flier miles, use vrbo and have some flexibility. It only gets really expensive if you are one of those families that MUST stay in a resort, and even then you can find some good deals.
” living in the GZ and being single, I would say close to 100k is required to be upper middle class”
William D – That is the perfect comment. Most people try to compare themselves among their closest peers and/or neighbors. That is what puts this whole discussion completely out of context. Jenny’s parents travel to foreign lands each year and don’t think that they are rich.
I guess that the definition of what it means to be middle class for someone who lives in Riverdale is far different from a resident of River Grove, Perhaps there is a similar definition for a homeowner in River Forest vs an empty nester who owns a condo in River north. FInally someone could actually debate what it means to be middle class while being maxed out on debt but living in an upscale condo “on the river” in Trump Tower.
I’m thinking that at my salary, I am much better off never having kids and putting extra money away, so I can afford a nice retirement home. Plus, I have long term care insurance, so if I ever need a nursing home, I won’t have to rely on family to support the cost. There is no way I could lead even have a semblance of middle class life and raise kids at the same time (even if I had a partner who was earning as much as me).
“Back out room and board, personal and health insurance, bc the kids are living at home, it’s still $12,000 per year, on a 5 year plan. If 2 kids are in school at the same time, $24,000/year isn’t really ‘affordable’ at $100k hhi, even with maximizing the income tax bennies. “Doable”, yes, but with multi-year sacrifices on the “Jenny requirements”.”
They can’t finish in 4 years? Okay fine, but even then, assuming the kids take out some loans, it’s something like $100K total, but spread out over 20 or 25 years. Not easily affordable, i.e. it comes w sacrifices and tradeoffs, but still a major family expense that can be afforded.
College is no longer affordable for the middle class. I would even argue its not affordable for the upper middle class. If your parents are “fortunate” to make enough income, you get to pay the sticker amount. Even UIUC runs close to 30k a year now. While I think its great to push everyone to go to college, those that can barely afford it now have to pay for those who go there for free. Any white collar job requires a college degree so you really have no other option and then you’re burdened with student loans. And that will be the next financial crisis. All these people making 25-40k who have 100k in debt from undergrad who have no way of repaying it at 0%, let alone the 5% or higher rate they have. Just my .02.
“It’s not too bad if you accumulate frequent flier miles”
Do the MC have enough freq flyer miles to take the family on a trip?
“Or are most middle class trips departing from Chicago revolving around a car ride to the Ozarks on the SW, Minnesota lake on the NW, Michigan lake on the NE and some park in TN on the SE?”
That’s what the solidly MC folks I know do.
“I’m thinking that at my salary, I am much better off never having kids and putting extra money away, so I can afford a nice retirement home.”
I know this is the kinda thing one shouldn’t say, but I’m thinking jenny really needs to marry well.
Jp, I think those locations are popular although I know families today who drive on vacation to Florida and Georgia from here or out west. Growing up, we drove to NY state, MA and Washington DC. I also think where extended family is also controls a lot for where families go for vacation. Gotta visit the cousins….
“Do the MC have enough freq flyer miles to take the family on a trip?”
Depends on whether you have to travel for work at all and whether you use a credit card that is hooked up with a frequent flier program. We do the latter (and we charge EVERYTHING) – we can’t fly everyone for free every year, but every other year generally.
Ben: “Jp3, must it include airfare? I would have considered myself mc growing up but family trips were always in the car or once in an RV.”
That’s back to my list. I don’t think that the *minimum* threshold for MC involves an annual airplane vacation for the family. Many who do take an annual flying trip are still MC, but above the minimum.
jp3: “the budget for a family of 4 to go on vacation (domestic) involving airfare assuming that you are in the middle class?”
Annual trip, or ‘special occasion’? Staying with family, or motel? Family of 4?
“I’m thinking that at my salary, I am much better off never having kids and putting extra money away, so I can afford a nice retirement home. Plus, I have long term care insurance, so if I ever need a nursing home, I won’t have to rely on family to support the cost. There is no way I could lead even have a semblance of middle class life and raise kids at the same time (even if I had a partner who was earning as much as me).”
Wow, what a narcissist. Love and relationships will make your life much fuller than worrying about what class you are in. Live life to the fullest and make the best of it. If you really believe what you wrote, I would invest in good mental health care now, becuase you won’t want to live to retirement.
Back to topic, I’ll admit, I have no clue where Galewood is. However, I do know where North Eastern is so I’m assuming it’s around there. I have no opinion about the area.
DZ – I agree. The Dells, Hayward, Indiana Dunes, or chasing a baseball team in a midwestern town like Cincinatti or St. Louis woven in with a trip to see some extended family is what I consider the true definition of a middle class trip. Upper middle class is adding the airfare and catching a trip to Orlando with a coupon driven carefully budgeted trip to Disney every few years.
My mother was a school teacher that loved to travel. We car camped for two summers when I was a teen. One summer for 65+ days to the west coast. The other summer to the east coast. Mostly a tent and KOA campground. When the weather was bad or we were in a bigger city we would opt for a cheaper hotel aka Super 8.
Needless to say I have not stayed in a tent since unless you count the FS Tented camp in Thailand or on safari at a luxury camp in South Africa. Yeah I still love to travel… and we definetely splurge in this category of spending.
Live life to the fullest and make the best of it. If you really believe what you wrote, I would invest in good mental health care now, becuase you won’t want to live to retirement.
Looking to buy – Well said. The good news is that Jenny will change her tune when the right guy comes along.
Jenny How old are you and WTF do you have long term nursing home insurance? That is a ripoff and if you are in your 20’s or 30’s I am worried about you. Live a little and take some more chances in life. You are way to wound up and planning oriented.
“I would say close to 100k is required to be upper middle class.”
Absolutely. The entry level to UMC, in Chicago, is about $100k. You can’t get all the wants of UMC on $100k, but it gets you started. More is needed, of course, if you aren’t single, but then you’ve usually acquired some trapping over the years.
But the question posed is what is “middle class income” in (or around) Chicago. And, by implication, is this house “middle class housing”.
Not that you should care, but I’m more interested in what is perceived as the *entry-level* to MC, and how that affects what housing is “MC” available/realistic. This featured house is NOT an entry-MC house, but is also not a UMC house.
“The Dells, Hayward, Indiana Dunes, or chasing a baseball team in a midwestern town like Cincinatti or St. Louis woven in with a trip to see some extended family is what I consider the true definition of a middle class trip”
Yep, I’d say that’s the archetype for Illinoisans.
Road trips are so much more fun than airplanes. Now that you can’t even sneak a bag of weed thru the airport, taped to your taint, one more reason to get in the car.
People go the Indiana dunes? Indiana really creeps me out.
The company I work for offers long term care insurance and it’s relatively inexpensive at my age. There is a guarantee that they can’t raise rates (although, I’m not sure if I believe this).
What’s creepy about the Indiana dunes? I used to go sledding there as a kid….lots of fun.
“They can’t finish in 4 years?”
The link showed the cost for 12 units per semester, with 120 to graduate. And I’ve *never* heard anything but complaints about getting into required classes at non-flagship state schools.
What’s creepy about the Indiana dunes?
I don’t know specifically about the Indiana Dunes, but Indiana itself creeps me out.
I’d rather go to the Warren Dunes in Michigan. Or if you have the time, Sleeping Bear Park in Northern MI.
I’ll admit Indiana is weird, but the dunes are cool. Also, their taxes are lower.
“Also, their taxes are lower.”
I guess, but it’s a dumpy state.
“Depends on whether you have to travel for work at all and whether you use a credit card that is hooked up with a frequent flier program. We do the latter (and we charge EVERYTHING) – we can’t fly everyone for free every year, but every other year generally.”
Work travel, esp if you run get miles on expenses as well, would make a big difference, though I don’t think of work (airline) travel as a modal MC thing. Work aside, is the MC family charging more than $25-30K a year? Hard to fly every other year even if saver type awards are available when you need to travel.
“The Dells, Hayward, Indiana Dunes, or chasing a baseball team in a midwestern town like Cincinatti or St. Louis woven in with a trip to see some extended family is what I consider the true definition of a middle class trip”
“Yep, I’d say that’s the archetype for Illinoisans.”
That what the MC to MC+ (some might be UMC-) folks on our block do, w a driving trip to the ozarks or smoky mountains mixed in. With an aspirational we’ll take the kids ona plane trip someday.
Jenny has no worries.. She can always fall back on HD’s offer to shack her up in a nice studio in Uptown.. Maybe he’ll even throw her an allowance…
“DZ – I agree. The Dells, Hayward, Indiana Dunes, or chasing a baseball team in a midwestern town like Cincinatti or St. Louis woven in with a trip to see some extended family is what I consider the true definition of a middle class trip. Upper middle class is adding the airfare and catching a trip to Orlando with a coupon driven carefully budgeted trip to Disney every few years.”
So whatever happened with all the ski condos during the bust? any skiiers out there? Places like Deer Valley, Beaver Creek, etc. I thought alot of Upper Middle class types were getting into those, thinking the “appreciation” would cover all their costs etc. I highly doubt the upper middle class is flying the family out to Colorado now, so what’s going on with all those resort homes/condos?
“People go the Indiana dunes? Indiana really creeps me out.”
It’s mutual Vlajos: eating stinky, dirty tamales and spilling salsa on skin tight t-shirts covering multiple rolls of fat creeps the Indiana people out! Indiana is mostly midwestern farms like Illinois the state you live in douche-bag, the southern part is more “South”, like near Louisville, and it’s prettier than northern Illinois.
Jenny, I should suggest you go hang out in a middle class area like the burbs/truck stop towns east of St. Louis some time. Then you’ll see REAL middle class living. and it ain’t pretty!
I’m late to this, but come on, Jenny. A foreign trip every year? I consider myself upper middle class and haven’t been out of the country in several years. A typical vacation for us is Door County or upper Michigan. Or if we want to get out of the Midwest, a national park. There’s so much great stuff to see here in the U.S., you can have lots of fun vacations that don’t involve expensive air fare to Europe or Asia.
jp3,
Re, cost for a family of 4 to go on an airfare vacation, I don’t know if my experience is universal, but my wife, two kids and I spent a week out on the Pacific coast last summer and the bill, with air, hotels, etc., was about $6,000.
But like I said, we do a lot of car trips as well. Wisconsin can be lots of fun with kids, and it’s very easy to drive to!
“any skiiers out there?”
HH, since I love sharing details of my life with you, Yes. My favorite sport.
Key element of MC psyche is fear of falling out of it. Which is getting easier and easier to do. Question in my mind is, At what level do you solve precariousness?
I would bet that going from hhi of $50k to $75k for family of 4 creates significantly more well-being than going from $100k to $150k. Once you’ve solved for precariousness, you get on the hedonic treadmill and the benefit is not more happiness but rather a finer class of shit you can buy.
Way, way, way too much tinfoil in this thread. Go outside and enjoy the nice weather, people!
Looking to buy, Galewood is far west (and slightly north) in the city. North Ave is its south boundary with the suburb of Oak Park and Harlem is its west boundary with the suburb of Elmwood Park. Austin is the east boundary and I am not sure how far North it goes. The Brickyard mall is in the hood and Riis Park by the Groovester who I miss. Many cops, fire, paramedics and city workers live there. Nice area but not great reputation. Smaller homes.
Jenny’s not interested in dating married men. not all women are in to that. But some are. Or so I hear. I wouldn’t know though
” gringozecarioca (May 14, 2013, 4:21 pm)
Jenny has no worries.. She can always fall back on HD’s offer to shack her up in a nice studio in Uptown.. Maybe he’ll even throw her an allowance…”
Ok I agree that Jenny’s list is upper/middle class. But what do you guys do with your income that you cannot afford an overseas trip in several years? We are a family of 3, pay for full time nannies (sometimes even on weekends) and still manage to travel abroad for vacations (Of course we do not stay at Negresco), afford an in-town home, and buy reasonably often things that we really don’t need to buy but like to have (equivalent of Jenny’s gadgets).
Is it possible that midwesterners have big families, say 3-4 kids? Big houses? Eat out a lot? Buy too much junk? I would love to see some data on how folks spend their income.
Miumiu, it is just that you make far more than anyone here. You just need to start supporting Jenny and all will even out!
Btw, welcome back…I’ve missed you in addition to Groove!
“HH, since I love sharing details of my life with you, Yes. My favorite sport.”
Me too Ze. I especially love a little swim or sauna afterwards. Where do you normally go? I love Dolomiti.
Thanks Ben. I missed you guys too except perhaps HH…lol
I think there are a lot of folks on CC that make way more than us. Just think of Jenny’s suggestion of eating out 3-4 times at a nice place. For a couple that is easily $400-$500 a week extra or $1600-2K a month. It of course is much more for folks with kids.
“Me too Ze. I especially love a little swim or sauna afterwards. Where do you normally go? I love Dolomiti.”
Closest really nice place to me now is Bariloche. These days ski season starts for me in July, although told a friend I’d meet him in Colo or Utah next April.
“Jenny’s not interested in dating married men. not all women are in to that. But some are. Or so I hear. I wouldn’t know though”
Surprisingly few mind. Surprisingly, some prefer… Crazy world!
“But what do you guys do with your income that you cannot afford an overseas trip in several years? ”
Buy too much weed and cookies….
Foreign trips every year are not middle class unless you are single. Also, need to factor in student debt repayment the first 10 years out of college for many. The comparison of middle class lifestyles is all relative. If you feel like you need to make an annual foreign trip and are still middle class, you may be living in Wilmette or ELP…
There is no way that people in the $300-400K income bracket are middle class. They are rich. If they live paycheck to paycheck, that’s their problem managing their spending.
This is an interesting map –
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130511/ISSUE01/130509751/money-train-metra-stops-and-income-levels
“I’m thinking that at my salary, I am much better off never having kids and putting extra money away, so I can afford a nice retirement home.”
Having daughters is your best bet…..even with them, you’re still going to get the gigantic morphine shot.
“There is no way that people in the $300-400K income bracket are middle class. They are rich. If they live paycheck to paycheck, that’s their problem managing their spending.”
So true Dave M. That is $35,000 a MONTH! Lol.
The “middle class” lives on $4,000 a month.
Of course- it’s all relative given housing costs. $400,000 might make you feel poor on the Upper West Side in NY. But you are extremely rich making that in Champaign, Springfield, Peoria, Rockford etc.
If you can afford to pay for your child’s college tuition/education every semester out of your income you are NOT middle class. Your are upper middle class.
“There is no way that people in the $300-400K income bracket are middle class. They are rich.”
Ze says 3-4 makes you comfortable. Still very conscious of expenses, still need to be careful. Definitely not rich. Rich starts at 6-800. over 2 a yr you can start rapidly moving into wealthy… 10+ a yr and you are in a different league.
“Ze says 3-4 makes you comfortable. Still very conscious of expenses, still need to be careful. Definitely not rich.”
Todd henderson thanks you for your support.
“Ok I agree that Jenny’s list is upper/middle class. But what do you guys do with your income that you cannot afford an overseas trip in several years? We are a family of 3, pay for full time nannies (sometimes even on weekends) and still manage to travel abroad for vacations (Of course we do not stay at Negresco), afford an in-town home, and buy reasonably often things that we really don’t need to buy but like to have (equivalent of Jenny’s gadgets).
Is it possible that midwesterners have big families, say 3-4 kids? Big houses? Eat out a lot? Buy too much junk? I would love to see some data on how folks spend their income.”
Well, ChukDC gave us a detailed breakdown of his spending. Can’t remem if foreign vacations were on the list. I think he had a low vacation expense number.
But the question really relates to either the entry or typical MC family. At $50-80K, a (real) foreign vacation for family of 3-4 become tough. Not impossible but comes only w sacrifices. I’m guessing you’re well over that in family income.
“Todd henderson thanks you for your support”
Exactly. Just googled him and read an article telling how someone at that income has to “rethink” their expenses. If you have to think about it, you are not rich. Simple as that.
Okay, had to go look up what cdc said:
“We go on one “regular” vacation once a year. Florida, Yosemite, Chicago, etc. No exotic cruises, international vacations, etc.”
“If you have to think about it, you are not rich.”
I don’t have a problem w this type of defn of rich, but there needs to be a better term than UMC (or UMC+) for the $400K family.
“I don’t have a problem w this type of defn of rich, but there needs to be a better term than UMC (or UMC+) for the $400K family.”
I used “comfortable”
My best friend falls into that category and always bitchin to me about his expenses and why he bought a ski house so can’t meet me in Machu Pichu… He’s in a good position, solid Net Worth but tied up in his home.. has his hands full with 2 kids , one getting ready for college, so can’t just freely do what he wants.. but no one that anyone would cry for… So i’d classify him as comfortable.
Now how did chuk and i both live in DC and never hang out is the bigger mystery for me…
“But the question really relates to either the entry or typical MC family. At $50-80K, a (real) foreign vacation for family of 3-4 become tough. Not impossible but comes only w sacrifices. I’m guessing you’re well over that in family income.”
Do any of you actually make this income? Even if you live in a house with a mortgage payment of, say, $800 or $1000 a month. If you’re making $80,000 a year and have 2 kids- no way in HELL you’re spending $5,000 every year to go on some foreign trip (unless credit cards are your friend.)
Airfare alone- if you don’t go in the middle of winter- is $4,000 for that family. And that doesn’t include hotels. There is no way a middle class family is spending $6,000 to $10,000 on a vacation. Come on!
Have any of you been to the Beaches in Turks & Caicos? It’s the #1 family resort in the Caribbean. To go for a week you’ll spend $8,000 for a family of four. You’re NOT seeing middle class people there. No way. They’re all in the Bahamas or something. That is upper middle class territory all the way.
The middle class will take vacations but they go to the Wisconsin Dells or Lake Geneva. Their splurge is Disney World where they can get cheap airfares into Orlando. Disney World is the vacation that goes on the credit card- NOT to a foreign country. The middle class doesn’t even have passports unless they’re fond of Mexico and got them for that reason (and Mexico actually CAN be quite affordable- so maybe they DO go there.)
“Ze says 3-4 makes you comfortable. Still very conscious of expenses, still need to be careful. Definitely not rich.”
It depends on where you live. In the Chicago area- if you make $400,000 you’re not worried about your kids college tuition and you can take vacations anywhere you want without saving for it. You also drive luxury automobiles and have Subzero. You’re very well off and live the life most people only dream of.
The truth is US incomes look superficially high say compared to European salaries, but considering what Europeans get for free, one has to deflate the buying power of Americans. I was telling my husband the other day that his sisters 65K euro salary is more effective than my 100K+. Her corny pays for her apartment and car. Healthcare is pretty much free in Italy so is schooling all the way through college. Their retirement is adequate so no need to constantly save.
Corny >>> company.
Disney world is not cheap and it’s not worth it. I will take my kids there once out of duty. Though we will likely go to Euro Disney instead of Florida.
“Disney world is not cheap and it’s not worth it.”
I’ve spoken with numerous people in the last year who’ve visited FL, and these are good friends, and they all loved it. It’s not cheap but it is manageable if you do it right. But I’ve heard it’s a blast if you have kids who are old enough to appreciate it. It’s clean, fun, wholesome etc. It’s not six flags in gurnee with the 14 year old gangbangers runnning around
I make about $55k a year. My housing costs are about $1800 a month (mortgage/utilities/assessment/tax/cable/internet/etc).
I can afford a yearly foreign trip (going to Europe in the off season and splitting a hotel/car with a friend or partner). I often take a small trip in the US in the summer.
I can save for retirement…only 10%.
I drive an old car, which I paid cash for and plan to pay cash for my next car. I bought my car used and will buy the next one used (am saving up for a “new” used car).
I have a rainy day fund for when appliances break, but I only have about 9 months worth of money liquid to pay for my housing costs if I were to lose my job.
My parents still sometimes have to help me – like when my dog unexpectedly needed $3k of treatment. If my furnace broke or I needed to replace my central air conditioning unit, I would need their help. I have enough in savings to cover these things, but my parents don’t want to see me without a cushion in the bank.
I can’t afford doggy day care or a dog walker, so one of my parents picks up my dog when I have to work late. I also can’t afford Europe in the summer. I also couldn’t afford a car payment. I can’t afford to buy all the gadgets/toys I want. I want a 4k TV, but am waiting for them to come down in price.
“So whatever happened with all the ski condos during the bust? any skiiers out there? Places like Deer Valley, Beaver Creek, etc. I thought alot of Upper Middle class types were getting into those, thinking the “appreciation” would cover all their costs etc. I highly doubt the upper middle class is flying the family out to Colorado now, so what’s going on with all those resort homes/condos?”
I don’t think that most upper middle class folks who are at least semi-serious about skiing have reduced their trips out west due to the economy. Having babies tends to reduce those trips a bit, sure.
As for the all the development that took place in CO/UT (and elsewhere, e.g., parts of Tahoe), yes, there was absolutely a real estate crash. However, it’s much like it is here and elsewhere: Deer Valley, for instance, didn’t feel it to badly (and there aren’t many condos there, it’s mostly SFHs, and most of the condos are in luxury resort settings), and has pretty much bounced back to near peak levels (down in Park City, where there are more condos, and it’s simply less exclusive, there was much more of a pinch, but things there have rebounded fairly well). In CO, a big factor is how developed things were in a given town before the 2000’s boom. In Breck or Vail, things were already pretty built out (with minimal amounts of new in-town or slopeside development in the 2000’s), whereas in places like Winter Park, they added a lot of new condos (and SFHs/THs), and it’s also a less exclusive place than, say, Vail, so the last few years were very bad there (but even it is doing much better today than a year ago). (One thing that made matters worse just about everywhere in CO, on top of the economy and stock market, was the beetle devastation of so many trees. It really looked bad for a couple of years, and is only now starting to look better, albeit with thinner forests. Had I been looking to buy a place in a mountain town in 2009-10, the beetle situation would have caused me to hold off.)
” I want a 4k TV”
You want a Pioneer plasma? Or a 70″ tv? Why?
I want a 4k TV, with 4x the resolution of a standard HD TV, like the Sony XBR-65X900A.
“I want a 4k TV, with 4x the resolution of a standard HD TV, like the Sony XBR-65X900A.”
1. How much 4k content is out there?
2. How close do you sit to your tv? Can you really tell difference?
DZ, you are right. I just love new technology though!
” like the Sony XBR-65X900A”
Ah. Too new to register with me.
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/04/sonys-4k-ultrahd-tvs-plummet-in-price-but-content-still-scarce/
We could afford foreign vacations more often, but the point I was making was, why bother when there’s so much great stuff to see in the U.S. and Canada? Although we have been overseas with our kids and do intend to go back at some point, it’s not something I feel like we’re missing too much. And all that flying is a big hassle which I don’t need when I only have a few weeks a year off.
Although I don’t personally relate to Jenny’s “need” to have the latest technology TV when she still needs to borrow $ from her parents to pay vet bills, I kind of get where she’s coming from. My love of cars led me to a totally needless purchase a few years ago, which I don’t regret.
Good post, Sabrina, on where real middle class people go on vacation. Definitely Bahamas, Mexico and Disney World all fit, because all-inclusive vacation packages to those places are quite affordable. I’ve been to them all, myself. But I’d much rather spend a little more and go somewhere not so crowded and touristy.
“DZ, you are right. I just love new technology though!”
whenever a new technology/gadget comes out that I want, I wait a few iterations until they work out the kinks and the price comes down, then I buy the best available (or that I can afford) and make it last as long time.
“I love Dolomiti.”
unreliable snow
“Have any of you been to the Beaches in Turks & Caicos? It’s the #1 family resort in the Caribbean.”
T&C is on the Atlantic ocean. Unreliable heat, could be cold, in 70’s.
My favorite N. American skiing places (and I’ve been skiing in a bunch of Western states, as well as the Midwest):
Alta, Utah –
Pluses: uncrowded, not snobby and upscale, no snowboards, beautiful scenery, easy access to Salt Lake City airport, good snow reliability, lots of challenging runs and good intermediates
Negatives: Long rope-tow from base area to kids ski school, no bars on chairlifts, a bit spartan in terms of hotel choices and amenities, base “village” is pretty lame
Taos, N.M. –
Pluses: Beautiful location, challenging runs (some too challenging!), near town of Taos which is quite interesting, nice base village, no snowboards
Minuses: Hard to get to
Vail:
Pluses – Amazing variety of runs – you could be there a week and never do the same run twice, it seems; incredible uncrowded “back bowls,” challenging terrain
Minuses: Very expensive, some snobby people, a little too big – it can take over an hour to get from one part of the mountain to another
For Midwest skiing, which I’ve done a lot of with our kids, I prefer Chestnut Mountain (great scenery, near Galena) and Granite Peak, Wisconsin (beautiful scenery and lots of runs, but a bit far away).
An upper class or upple middle class thing to do is fly to Vail with your teen sons over President’s Day weekend. I was there once and half the mountain appeared to be New Yorkers, of the Wall St./Lawyer type etc. I was stuck in an elevator in Beaver Creek with these JAP women that were just like that actress what’s her name….the Nanny. Fran Drescher.
Nonny or D#2: Anywhere around here you would take your young kids to for beginning ski lessons? By around here I mean w/in an hour’s drive or so, so you could fit it into weekend activities rather than a day/weekend trip.
Crested Butte Colorado is my favorite mountain to do my snowboarding thing at
Work travel, esp if you run get miles on expenses as well, would make a big difference, though I don’t think of work (airline) travel as a modal MC thing. Work aside, is the MC family charging more than $25-30K a year? Hard to fly every other year even if saver type awards are available when you need to travel.
Many years and two jobs ago I was single and making middle class income but traveling four days per week. Back then I had a travel expense budget that easily hit 7k per month plus all the accelerators, miles and hotel points. After I changed jobs and stopped flying each week those airline miles, cc points, and free hotel points allowed me and the now wife to do some incredible travel around the world!
‘Can you believe that this guy who questions other’s masculinity ad nauseam actually referenced The Nanny and not say, Spinal Tap?’ said the two women who may resemble Fran Drescher in an elevator.
“a week out on the Pacific coast last summer and the bill, with air, hotels, etc., was about $6,000”
Dan2 – that seems about right. So if you are a true MC and are diverting 6K on the annual vacation does that mean you are rich or are just choosing to put extra $$$ into the travel budget say over the clothes or dining out budget. Life is about choices choices choices.
Jenny – I don’t care what it costs. Stop putting money into long term care insurance. Perhaps you can look at a long term disability insurance plan but spend those dollars on some living and find some love. Then thank me later!
jay, it will all make sense once you understand that HH is in the closet.
“‘Can you believe that this guy who questions other’s masculinity ad nauseam actually referenced The Nanny and not say, Spinal Tap?’ said the two women who may resemble Fran Drescher in an elevator.”
I like remembering her from Hollywood Knights
Sally: Turk, did you come?
Newbomb Turk: A little.
Sally: What do you mean a little? Either you came or you didn’t.
Newbomb Turk: I came.
Sally: Oh my God, I can’t believe you came. You are so immature.
I make about $55k a year. My housing costs are about $1800 a month
I can save for retirement…only 10%.
I drive an old car, which I paid cash for and plan to pay cash for my next car.
l have about 9 months worth of money liquid to pay for my housing costs if I were to lose my job.
My parents still sometimes have to help me – like when my dog unexpectedly needed $3k of treatment.
my parents picks up my dog when I have to work late.
I want a 4k TV, but am waiting.
Jenny – You are a dream girl! Good earner, no debt, controlled spender, not into luxury cars, like cool TVs, show some patience, and love to travel. Those are all GREAT qualities. I am an extremely happily married man because my wife is just like you! I’m guessing that the parent thing is pushing away some otherwise decent relationships but you are going to make some guy extremely happy.
I’m taking a stab here — Are your parents are first generation or just overly protective of their only child?
Dan2: I take it you haven’t been to Taos in a while (it is no longer discriminatory).
sonies: CB can indeed be great. A lifetime ago, I spent a couple of weeks there (for a while, they did free lift tickets for about the first month of the season, not sure if they do that any more), part couch surfing and part sleeping in a hut my friends built in the woods (about a 10 minute hike from the road, just outside of town). When I eventually go back for a visit, I’d like to do cat day up at Irwin.
DZ: I have no idea what the best driving distance options are here. But we plan to experiment a bit next season. We’ll place a premium on the shortest distance places, as places that are bigger and supposedly have better snow than the closer places simply won’t be that much better. It’s all bad (and boring, if you ski). (Living in NYC, I alwasy got a kick out of the bigshots there who would drive half a day to spend a couple of nights in VT, when it wouldn’t take much longer get somewhere in CO/UT.)
Spent years of my life skiing and boarding. Actually made a living in that business for a time. Been to most western resorts and even more in the midwest. Like them all. For beginning kid skiers in the midwest Wilmot or Four Lakes can be ok. Just not on a peak Sat/Sun. With a three hour range I say Devils Head as they are close to the Dells water park mecca for a split vacation. Day or two of skiing coupled with time in an indoor water park.
“I am an extremely happily married man because my wife is just like you!”
There is no way your wife wants a 4k tv.
“There is no way your wife wants a 4k tv”
That is an actual fact DZ. Wish she was more into technology. When we move (someday) she has insisted on having 2 washers and 2 dryers. To me that is a luxury that makes perfect sense. Not sure what else she would put on the short list if we had a spare $4K sitting around. I do know that she wants a new stroller.
All she wanted for Mothers day was flowers!
“if we had a spare $4K sitting around”
You made the same mistake I did!
Jenny wants a $6,000 TV that’s a “4K ‘Ultra’ HD”.
XBR’s are very nice TV’s!
Since my DLP i had (that was gifted to me) started dying after 5 years, I just bought a used 52″ XBR2 Bravia off some company that was going out of business for $300… was $4,000 new LOL still works great!
I love buying quality depreciated things 🙂
I “might” buy a new TV when they finally make a quality glasses-free 3d tv in 4k or whatever the resolution of the time is, but most certainly a few years after they come out as I want them to work out all the kinks first.
In regard to Devils head, that is the best/closest place to ski/board. Second best and closer would be Alpine Valley. Basically, mid west skiing BLOWS big time. If you really want to teach your kid, take a trip out west to the Rockies, nothing better than getting a personal instructor in a designated learning zone, I believe they don’t have those here in the midwest.
JP3, I am an only child and so was my mom. My parents’ families have been here for a long time. I was raised to be conservative with money and that the older generation helps out the younger one. My parents had help from my mom’s parents when they were starting out. If I had kids, I would likely help them out financially too.
“referenced The Nanny and not say, Spinal Tap?”
LOL, jay….Bobbi Flekman. Wasn’t that her name? Reiner knows his own people well. Classic character, and actually more like the japs in the elevator at Beaver Creek. Exactly. Wearing NYC black Donna Karan clothes in the fresh air, open spaces of Colorado. comedy gold.
DZ: I’ve been very happy with the ski school programs at Chestnut Mountain. Both my kids have been in classes there and had a good time. We haven’t tried the ski school at Granite Peak but it seemed like the people were generally friendly at the resort and I wouldn’t be surprised to hear it’s a good school. It is a five hour drive vs. 3.5 hours for Chestnut Mountain.
For ski schools out west, I liked the Alta and Jackson Hole ski schools, which both my kids have been in and enjoyed. My older son learned to ski at Jackson Hole.
When I was a teen, I went to ski school at Taos on three trips there and enjoyed it a lot. My brother and I learned to parallel ski in Taos.
I never heard Taos was discriminatory, by the way. Not sure what that’s about. We went several times in the mid-1980s and it seemed like a friendly place.
Thanks for the kid ski suggestions. Is someplace like http://www.skifourlakes.com/ pointless? Or just for the v v beginning skier? My kid hasn’t done any skiing, but he is v advanced in general. He is dominating on the monkey bars at the playground.
I had my first ski lesson at Chestnut Mountain as a kid. I was able to start skiing that first day. It was a lot of fun for a beginner.
I’ve never heard of Four Lakes, but based on its location, I’d assume the skiing isn’t too challenging. Maybe OK for a kid to just get comfortable being on skis. But I’d prefer to drive to Chestnut, though I realize it’s a long way, just to get the kids out on a real hill. The view of the Mississippi from the top of the resort is worth the drive. Maybe your kids won’t care about that, though.
The UP is the best skiing in the Midwest. It’s a heck of a drive and there’s much not to do but ski but the snow is reliable and the runs are longer than 45 seconds like chestnut. I was at chestnut this feb and it was all ice. Skiing on a sheet of ice in 15 degree weather is not much fun.
“I make about $55k a year. My housing costs are about $1800 a month”
Jenny, I think your housing costs are too high for your income.
You have a good income, but $1800 is a lot for a single person to pay.
That’s why you feel stressed and you don’t have money left over for other things.
I think you should take a look at what your money will buy in other neighborhoods.
Uptown! Cheap rents!
“Uptown! Cheap rents!”
Not after that Skokie dude gets done booting out all the non-white minorities and raising the rents. He even has a “shtick” (that’s a yiddish term). (I love how liberals can throw out the ideology when it comes to their own money & greed.)
http://www.flatschicago.com/our-shtick
“I want a 4k TV, but am waiting”
Ze has never been face to face with a 4k TV, but often I find HD too clear so not sure I would like uber HD.
I knew I felt a disturbance in the force. HD has summoned me for my obligatory defense of Uptown!
Anyway, agree with Milkster: Jenny, your housing nut is large relative to income. Might be worth it depending on where/what you bought, but Milkster’s comment is worth thinking about if you don’t think your income will be changing.
good grief that Uptown flats site makes me wanna puke
Guys quit picking on Jenny about her housing costs. She is still awesome and since mom and dad are there to help her as needed then her effective income is likely more like 70k.
Jenny. – You need to change “if I had kids” to “when I have kids” and if I knew you any better and were good looking I’d be hooking you up with one of my single male employees.
Sonies – you are on the money today. The very best place to learn to ski is out west. The snow is more forgiving. A high percentage of the instructors are full time vs weekend warriors in the Midwest. And as you just start to get in the groove here in the Midwest the run is over. Then it’s back to the chairlift and its easily 10-15 minutes before you are back in the game. Out west the runs are much much longer. As you start to get the hang of things your leg and lung strength will be the only limiting factor that are stopping your progression.
For a true beginner I’d say that four years of going out on a few long weekends in the Midwest is the equivalent of two consecutive days out west with a full day small group lesson! I’ve watched people make huge leaps in a very short time!
“your housing nut is large relative to income”
You note that includes cable, internet, and utilities, right?
” if I knew you any better and were good looking I’d be ”
Change that to ….knew you any better and found out that you were also good looking…
“knew you any better and found out that you were also good looking…”
Yes, ’cause young good looking girls with good bodies need help hooking up…
Jenny should find herself an equity partner at her firm to live the UMC lifestyle
My parents used to take us for 5 day ski weeks up to Boyne Mountain, Michigan. It was a great place to learn to ski. Everybody had lessons in the morning with Austrian instructors and a race against others on your level on Thursday. All meals were included, great food, including a meet the instructors fondue on Monday night and a banquet on Thursday night to hand out trophies. Very family friendly and more economical than Colorado.
I learned well enough to ski the Big Burn on my first trip out to Colorado after college. My kids learned at ski schools in Snowmass, Winter Park and Whistler on our annual vacations. We tried Boyne with the kids on a couple weekends, but after our years of skiing Colorado we found the short runs pretty boring. Still a fun family vacation, though, and a good place to learn. Boyne also has a great resort in Big Sky, Montana. I remember doing a bumps class there when I was five months pregnant. We also tore through Yellowstone National Park on snowmobiles one day on that trip, don’t think that’s allowed anymore. Amazing skiing, beautiful location, but relatively hard to get to. Our favorite mountain was Alta. Its a wonderful family vacation spot, and no snowboarders! Heaven! The most perfect skiing place I’ve been to, I hope to make it back some day.
“anon (tfo) (May 15, 2013, 5:32 pm)
“your housing nut is large relative to income”
You note that includes cable, internet, and utilities, right?”
Doesn’t change things much… I pay maybe $130 for all of the above but cable… cable’s going the way of the land line anyway, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she doesn’t need it/wouldn’t opt to pay if she had the choice. $1680 still seems big to me on $55k. Whatever she wants, it’s her business, but I can understand why finances are stressful with that chunk coming out each month.
“Jenny. – You need to change “if I had kids” to “when I have kids” and if I knew you any better and were good looking I’d be hooking you up with one of my single male employees.”
Not every woman wants to have kids Jp3Chicago. So if she’s unsure or something- that is fine.
1800/ month for housing costs is slightly on the high side for 55k. 50% of net should go towards necessities (mortgage, taxes, assessments, heat, groceries). On 55k, she’s clearing about 3500. Take 100 off for cable/int and tack on 250 for groceries and she’s at 1950. That allows her 15% for saving/investing (525) and 30% for discretionary spending (1050).
My favorite ski memories are 1) skiing at Squaw Valley during a massive dump of snow, there were non-professionals skiiing off cliffs under KT-22 lift into massive snow banks. I even went off a 15 footer into so much snow that nobody could get hurt. This one guy, I witnessed it myself, some local dude, skiied off an edge and dropped probably 50 feet right in front of me. It was a complete blizzard.
2) another massive blizzard conditions day I spent at Mt. Baker in WA, a random place that’s not over anally run. We ended up on the far side of the runs, where there were many flat parts, involved in pulling through all this snow just to get somewhere. We were in 2-3 feet of snow, the place was so local and uncharted that had we not made it out of there, we could’ve just been buried there and died.
Skiing builds character. Not quite like Paris Island but something nonetheless. It makes whining about Chicago weather, or “walking up 3 flights of stairs” in someone’s mccrapbox quite nothing.
Sabrina – very true but Jenny’s comments sound so lonely and depressing sometimes. Could be the pregnant wife syndrome. About to add more kid(s) to our family so it son my mind lately.
Helmet- had a trip to Taos with an avg of 2 feet per night for 6 days straight. Incredible!
Worked for a ski mfr that had an end of the season trip for shop employees. We had a photo op with most of our paid skier and boarder athletes at the top of China bowl in Vail. Afterthe photo we qll lined up for a run with thir ski idols. There were 60+ kids from around the country racing as hard as they could to try and keep up. None came close.
By the end of the run three torn acl’s, a dislocated shoulder, many bruises, and at least one broken arm. Vail Ski Patrol was not amused. Pretty sure it was the last time they let that happen!
“250 for groceries”
That’s cutting it a little tight- isn’t it? I guess it depends on where you shop and whether or not you bring your lunches to work. $1800 a month is enormous for someone on just $55,000 a year. (Sorry Jenny!) You would be WAY less stressed if you just lowered your housing costs. It’s not hard to do. If you’re single- there are plenty of nice 1-bedrooms in great neighborhoods in Lakeview for around $1000-$1100. She would save $700 a month right there.
No one here is allotting for her cell phone bill (another $100). Nor her co-pay for her health insurance (which could be a couple of hundred a month.) Does she have a car? That could be part of it too. Car payment. Or CTA monthly pass (another $100.) Car insurance (add on some more.) Nor her heat/a/c. With this long, cold spring, I was recently spending nearly $200 a month for my gas/electric.
She needs to be closer to $1000 a month on housing to save anything and not have credit card debt. Her discretionary spending is really only like $500 a month (if that.)
Jenny is the middle class. And she doesn’t have kids. See how hard it is? Don’t despair Jenny. Just take charge of the situation and reduce your housing costs. 🙂
“nice 1-bedrooms in great neighborhoods in Lakeview for around $1000-$1100. She would save $700 a month right there.”
So she won’t have to pay utilities for that rentals or that is already included there?
“Car payment.”
She bought cash.
I’d rather own a place and have a tighter budget to buy gadgets than rent and live larger. Jenny, what is the duration of your mortgage? Once you pay it off, you’d have much more money, right?
Jenny some possible saving strategies include: getting rid of your cable. I mean with Netflix and Internet, do you really need it? Also I assume you don’t travel on your job, so why would you need a smart phone/ data plans? You can get basic voice service wiry limited minutes and use Voice/IP for long chats if you do that.
Also why don’t you get a second job if you like to make money? Finally, if you have a 2 BR, cannot you get a roommate? Oh and there is ways moving in with your boyfriend and renting out your place. I did it in grad school and it was so much fun to get the extra rent and I was saving on utilities too.
“Jenny is the middle class”
Jenny thinks she needs to at least double her income to break *into* the middle class. Jenny thinks she is working poor or something. Which is the crux of the Jenny piece of this discussion.
Based on a recent conversation with two ppl from Chicago…born raised and current residents in RN, two from NYC, well three with me and one from Florida who is familiar with both, I got the following info. And yeah I hate comparing cities esp Chicago and NYC, but for the hell of it I will throw in my .02.
Chicago middle class for a couple would be $150k – $200k per yr, a $750k – one million housing paid for, $500 – $750k in savings with other liquid assets bringing total to a bit over a million and a half +.
For NYC middle class in Manhattan would mean $1 million salary, $3 mil housing paid for, $3 mil in savings and other liquid assets bringing total to $6 – $7 million in total assets. Upper class would start at $3 – 5 million income, $5 – 7 million housing paid for, minimum of $ 10 mil in savings with liquid assets around $3-4 million. Upper lives very comfortable on that amount but it could always be more to live in best neighborhood and own more in housing.
“Chicago middle class for a couple would be $150k – $200k per yr”
You are insane. That’s absurd. There’s only a handful of neighborhoods in Chicago that have that kind of household income.
“Chicago middle class for a couple would be $150k – $200k per yr, a $750k – one million housing paid for, $500 – $750k in savings with other liquid assets bringing total to a bit over a million and a half +.e”
This is upper middle class in Chicago. Have you ever been to the suburbs or most of Chicago westloopelo? Most of it is middle class from Portage Park to Morgan Park to Orland Park. You can buy a nice family home for $150,000 to $300,000. (maybe even less in some cases.) For the most part, income is under $100,000.
“Car payment.”
She bought cash.
You still have insurance, gas, maintenance costs. And no, the $1000 a month doesn’t include utilities.
“Once you pay it off, you’d have much more money, right?”
Is this her whole plan? Wait 15 to 30 years and THEN have a life?
Her housing costs are way too high for that income. You’re not saving for a rainy day, taking the vacation and saving for retirement with those housing costs.
If it’s a 2-bedroom, she needs a roommate. That would alleviate a lot of the stress.
“Chicago middle class for a couple would be $150k – $200k per yr”
I assume this was a joke.
“If it’s a 2-bedroom, she needs a roommate. That would alleviate a lot of the stress.”
I don’t think jenny + roommate = less stress. I don’t think jenny (given backup from her parents) is really lacking anything. Sure, she wants more (a $6K 4K tv) but who doesn’t.
Jenny’s perspective is shared with many at all economic levels. I have friends who make between 200-400k that share the same perspective. They feel they don’t make enough, and barely get by. Why is this happening they bought more real estate than they could afford, have to have the most expensive cars, etc. Pre-bust I have one friend who discussed real estate with me… huge fights (cat fights he he). Her and hubby played the property ladder game to the extreme. She would argue that their house was retirement plan. I told her, no that not an investment that an expense. I told her if you want investment property go buy a rental building…… her response was my house is going up 12-15 percent a year that a great return. My response back you know we are in a bubble and real estate will return to normal valuations. She looked at me like I was crazy……… Now she agrees with me and she says that they will never be able to retire….. My response: you make over 300k a year, that’s just plain nonsense. Sell or rent out your house, rent or by a cheap one. Get ride of the fancy cars, cut your credit card bills….. again that funny look- thinking I am crazy……….
I have a 2/2 condo. Mortgage/tax/assessments = $1500. Cable/internet = $150. Utilities = $75. I bought during the 2011 downturn. I actually am extremely tempted to buy a one bedroom and get my money out of my condo, especially since a unit similar to mine just sold for $50k more than I paid.
One other point though, my dad’s advice was to buy a little more house than I could afford, so I would grow into it. If I do stay another 10 years, my mortgage payment will seem like a pittance.
I was factoring the CTA card and healthcare coming out pretax on the 3500. Otherwise, 55k would be closer to 3700 per month. Still, I agree shes on the high side and if she was renting, 1800 would be way too much. However, since owning is an investment (do we still view it as such?), I think shes ok. $250 on groceries can literally cover almost every meal. I eat a healthy lifestyle with 5 smaller meals a day all store bought and spend about $60 week. You’re not doing all your shopping at Treasure Island, Whole Foods or Trader Joes, but it can definitely be done and rather easily at that (Jewel, Dominicks, etc.)
Anyway, I am not disputing that she is not middle class. In fact, I feel that Lakeview is ideal for someone who is in this income bracket. However, if she wants to be in RN or GC, housing will take up more of her income, so she’ll have to cut back on the discretionary spending. Assuming Jenny is at least average looking, I’m sure she’ll have no problem getting free drinks from the abundance of men that frequent establishments nearby, so its practically a wash!
Re: $250 a month for food – months back jenny alluded to the fact that she doesn’t like to eat and is pretty skinny so that seems reasonable…maybe even a little too high.
Jenny would save a lot more money by only eating out 1-2 nights a week instead of 3-4… eating out is a privelege, and a special treat, not something you do just because you’re hungry
Learn to cook better food at home, you’ll feel a lot better, its way healthier, and on most occasions tastes better too!
Jenny’s decision to be perpetually single is probably partially self-imposed. Jenny is probably very picky when it comes to men, and most men are probably not good enough; (and likely don’t earn enough, not that money is everything but it’s an important thing for her; and secondly, there just aren’t enough good men to go around. I’ve known plenty of women in my life who date around and have fun but when it came time to marry they were looking for a very specific sort of high income earning, totally douchey sort of dude. I know these women and I’m like “that’s the dude you choose?” But you know $250k a year for a 35 year old goes a long way; and it’s like the lottery, some catch these men, some don’t. The rest are stuck dating ‘middle class’ guys that have regular jobs (i.e. Pete from The League); or god forbid, these professional women have to date working class men (plumbers, HVAC, cops, etc) sort of guys. That’s beneath them in most cases. So there’s an entire contingent of single late 20’s through early 40’s women out there who won’t date down and forever remain single.
Whether this is true or notk I don’t know this is all just my perception of things
I haven’t been eating out that much lately since my last relationship ended. I included that in my list as one of the things I don’t have, but that other middle class people do on a regular basis. I’ve never calculated how much I spend on groceries, but I love fruit so I’m sure it’s more than it would be if I didn’t love fruit.
Dog food is pretty darned expensive these days though as are dog treats and dog toys. I spoil my dog.
“However, since owning is an investment (do we still view it as such?), ”
At least the piece of that $1500 payment going to principal is, tho perhaps a poor one.
Which is probably about $300/month?
but anon(tfo), the remaining $1,200 a month is tax deductible! What a great investment! /sarcasm off
“Dog food is pretty darned expensive these days though as are dog treats and dog toys. I spoil my dog.”
I don’t get it, I spend $40 bucks a month on dog food for two medium size dogs and they love me the same whether I feed them that food or “organic-freshly-butchered-baby-calf’s meat”
And for treats? I give them a little bit of low sodium turkey, ice cubes, or… a few pieces of their $40 a month dog food
They are awesome dogs and love everyone!
anyway, i just don’t get the whole spoil their dogs thing… they don’t know the fucking difference!
I would rather remain single than be with someone who isn’t a good match, so it’s partially self imposed. I also really love having my own condo, so my bar is that I have to feel like I would love the guy enough to want to share my space with him. That’s only happened a few times for me.
When talking to the older generation, they were less selective. I admit that it’s sad. We live in a throw-away society. It’s easy to meet and date people, but it’s also easy to throw them away for a trivial reason.
“they love me the same whether I feed them that food or “organic-freshly-butchered-baby-calf’s meat””
I too feed my pets garbage food but i often wonder what sort chinese toxics are in my pet’s food
“When talking to the older generation, they were less selective. I admit that it’s sad. ”
making a selection, any selection, is part of ‘natural order’ called ‘natural selection’. You may decide that reproduction is not a priority and that’s OK but the cosmos finds it to be the most complex and highest order of things.
” It’s easy to meet and date people, but it’s also easy to throw them away for a trivial reason.”
With that kind of attitude it’s difficult to imagine things getting to serious
“but anon(tfo), the remaining $1,200 a month is tax deductible! What a great investment! /sarcasm off”
But–in all seriousness–saying that paying $1000 in rent (NOTE: where are these $1000 apartments with at least one real bedroom and garage parking?? Gotta be in a hood Jenny would live in (ie, not too many teens, bikes, balls that bounce or shubberies)) will *definitely* save money *is* a little too simplistic.
“I never heard Taos was discriminatory, by the way. Not sure what that’s about. We went several times in the mid-1980s and it seemed like a friendly place.”
You noted yourself that Taos (at the time) prohibited snowboards.
“My favorite ski memories are 1) skiing at Squaw Valley during a massive dump of snow, there were non-professionals skiiing off cliffs under KT-22 lift into massive snow banks. 2) another massive blizzard conditions day I spent at Mt. Baker in WA, a random place that’s not over anally run.”
Squaw can be pretty heroic when they get a ton of snow. Same goes at nearby Sugar Bowl (which retains its rustic vibe; I can’t believe how much Squaw has changed/developed). I hate that I’ve never been to Baker, but I’d like to do the Legendary Banked Slalom at some point (maybe to mark some age milestone, assuming I can land a spot).
Jenny you need to change your mindset from “thinking what I should have” to enjoying my life.
Having more or better things doesn’t make for a happier life. Go out for lunch today, sit in the sun and think what a great day!
Just out of curiosity, is this still a real estate blog or has it become a dating, life and financial advice column as well as trip advisor lite?
🙂
We all need a place to live. I would rather own than rent because I just like the feeling of owning my own place. I’m swapping out the bathroom countertops tomorrow and it was a lot of fun to pick out exactly what I wanted. By the time I retire, I want to own a place outright so that I don’t have to worry about a mortgage or rent.
Ah, so you’re saying not allowing snowboards is discriminatory? Maybe so, but it’s something I really appreciate. Alta has the same policy.
“And for treats? I give them a little bit of low sodium turkey, ice cubes, or…”
Dog treats are a rip off. You get a 4 oz. bag for $3.99 at the pet store, and that equals $16 per lb. You could feed the dogs NY strip at that price. Human food is cheaper than dog treats on a price per lb. basis.
Buy some cheap all beef hot dogs, use those as treats. Dollar stores sell dog treats. Woof!
“Squaw can be pretty heroic when they get a ton of snow.”
I think that was Glen Plake’s home base, lots of videos filmed under the KT-22 lift.
Anecdotally, I have had more close calls and actual collisions with out of control snowboarders crashing into me from uphill than skiers, who usually have the sense to stay on the green runs. The teenaged beginners, guys trying to keep up with their buddies on runs they should not be on, are the most dangerous. I guess I discriminate somewhat against snowboarders for that reason.
Interestingly, my Coloradan daughter tells me that the general feeling is that skiing is cooler than boarding among the local population, including friends who grew up in resort towns, and she is very grateful to have learned to ski instead of board. I suppose you could call that a form of discrimination. The trends show that the snowboarding is losing popularity while skiing is gaining. The shaped skis are much more forgiving and learning is easier than ever. My daughter does terrain park tricks on hers. Personally, I can’t imagine learning to snowboard when I enjoy skiing so much. I love skating by the boarders on traverses, they seem to expend so much more energy moving around the mountain. Having independent foot movement makes for more control, imo, and control is everything for me when it comes to skiing.
http://business.time.com/2013/01/18/snowboarding-may-have-reached-its-peak/
“You noted yourself that Taos (at the time) prohibited snowboards.”
Last comment about skiing. The best run is North America is probably taking that one lift to the top of Whistler mountain. Unlike Vails bowls which finish along a massive flat part to a random lift, the Whistler bowl exists at the very top of the mountain, and you take the lift up and then you have the entire 5,000 ft. vertical below you, unlike at Vail where the bowls don’t go anywhere after you’re done.
So, I recall taking the final lift up to the top of Whistler at the end of the day. After the bowl, legs burning, you have to ski down the entire mountain. It took over 1/2 hour to finish the 5,000 ft down. Best run. It’s mindblowing to someone who’s only been to Wilmot or Alpine Valley.
When i learned to snowboard, it was just starting to become huge sometime back in like 1995ish, so I only learned to do that. It is fun but I will agree that the traverses and cat trails or whatever they call em SUCK HORRIBLY, especially at some places. I was in Lake Tahoe last spring and was MISERABLE at Heavenly, so many traverses there and it was so hot I was dying and cursing the world. Went to Kirkwood about 40 mins away and it was much better.
Crested Butte has a run like you describe helmet, there is a difficult headwall, at the top of the mountain which leads to a bowl, which then leads to a long cruising run, only 2700 vertical feet though, 2.6 miles long, still feels like forever when you’re on it, its so awesome
http://www.skicb.com/cbmr/SiteAssets/files/mountain/TrlMp12-13OUTSIDENov5_lr%20FNL.pdf
That Whistler run sounds amazing. I’ve always wanted to get out there.
True – Vail’s bowls don’t really take you too far. But there are so many of them, each with their own character, and if you get to the really far away ones, there is nobody out there. I had the place to myself.
The ack bowls rule – and are an incredible site!
Skied the top of Whistler or was it Blackomb in August once testing new skis. Might have been one of my favorite days on the slopes!
My favorite run was the men’s downhill at Aspen. Got to hit it a few times when freshly groomed and blocked off from top to bottom. Unbelievable experience. Felt like I was flying as I turned right and hit the ridge at the Aztec drop off. For the record I was a turtle in comparison to the real racers that day but I loved it anyway!
amazing.. not one comment about girls in ski pants..
Not everyone is a middle aged perv gringo…
I think part of what makes a mountain or a trail a favorite is if you happened to have perfect conditions when you were there. Although I agree that long run on Whistler is pretty cool, we had so much dense mountain fog during our stay there that I had to learn to ski blind or not ski at all. Its was like learning to ski all over again and not something I would want to repeat.
Gringo ze – you should book a trip to closing day at Crested Butte. Back in the 90’s there used to be a closing day tradition of naked skiing past the mid mountain restaurant. Everyone would sit there drinking beer watching the occasional brave ski by sans clothes. Snowball fights would break out. They even had the Bear Naked Ladies play live in 95. Every once in a while a naked skier would fall as they were pelted by snowballs. Now that must have hurt!
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/4-21-96-crested-butte-colorado-on-the-last-day-of-the-ski-news-photo/1153819
haha yeah, I used to go to CB in late march, I always missed the naked skiing by like 2 weeks, but it was always warm enough to see some hotties in bikinis or other warm weather fare.
When i was in Tahoe last spring, it was so hot I was boarding in just my T-shirt, and some nylon adidas pants and i was still roasting!
Good times that springtime mountain fun
Rethinking the ski lessons. Seems like skiers inevitably go on and on about their ever so interesting ski experiences.
It’s all relative and it’s all about priorities. Some people who scoff at spending the extra money on organic will blow that same money on sports tickets or beer. One person my travel to 5 European countries in 10 days and stay at modest hotels to ‘stretch’ their discretionary income while someone else will stay at the best hotel they can afford b/c that’s their version of fun.