2652 n seminary

You Can Buy a 3-Bedroom SFH in Lincoln Park for Just $750,000: 2652 N. Seminary

Jan 26 • Lincoln Park • 1318 Views • 105 Comments

This 3-bedroom single family house at 2652 N. Seminary in Lincoln Park just came on the market.

Built in 1891, it is a Victorian on the outside but a contemporary home on the inside.

It is also on an extra long 24×131 lot with a 2 1/2 car garage.

The master suite takes up the third floor with the two other bedrooms on the second floor.

It has skylights and central air.

It is currently listed for $750,000, which is the price for many townhouses and duplex downs in the same neighborhood.

In case you’re wondering, it is NOT on the El line.

Is this a deal?

Or is it priced to bring about a bidding war?

(This listing just came on the market 4 days ago. I wouldn’t be surprised to see it “pending” today so don’t write me saying, “Sabrina, it’s already pending. Yeah- things that are priced right are pending within days given the low inventory.)

Steven Sims at Coldwell Banker has the listing. See the pictures here.

2652 N. Seminary: 3 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, no square footage listed, 2.5 car garage

  • Sold in May 2000 for $540,000
  • Sold in January 2003 for $710,000
  • Currently listed for $750,000
  • Taxes of $8374
  • Central Air
  • Bedroom #1: 15×12 (third floor)
  • Bedroom #2: 13×12 (second floor)
  • Bedroom #3: 12×11 (second floor)

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105 Responses to You Can Buy a 3-Bedroom SFH in Lincoln Park for Just $750,000: 2652 N. Seminary

  1. GMan says:

    I concur, priced well, doubtful of a bidding war.

  2. jfmiii says:

    interior sucks. it needs a gut rehab. price reflects that.

  3. Sabrina says:

    “interior sucks. it needs a gut rehab. price reflects that.”

    Have you seen what some of the LP older townhouses look like for a similar price? Not much better.

    This is STILL a SFH on a big lot with NO ONE below, above or on either side of you.

  4. anon (tfo) says:

    Nice protected vista of Lincoln Ave across the gas station out front.

    Still, and accounting for the…period…interior, of the place, would have to be top of list to at least look at in the price range.

  5. MG says:

    There were 7 offers – all from builders looking to tear it down. Went for well over list price.

  6. sonies says:

    that sucks, I would totally live in an older place like that and fix it up as I go

  7. Vlajos says:

    MG, that’s terrible news. So a McCrapbox will replace this unique old home?

  8. sonies says:

    mccrapbox or mc3flat, so sad…

  9. Vlajos says:

    sonies, so so sad

  10. anon (tfo) says:

    “There were 7 offers – all from builders looking to tear it down. Went for well over list price.”

    The economics of home building are all f’ed up. I’ve always had it as retail price of completed project ~= 3x lot price. At ‘well over’ list, and including demo costs, that means the completed project should hit $2.5mm. Ain’t selling a SFH in this exact spot for that, so it’d have to be condos–is a duplex down looking out at Mobil really going to get $950k?

    Considering that the duplex down *next door* sold for $625k in Jun-13, I kinda doubt it:

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2650-N-Seminary-Ave-1-Chicago-IL-60614/87722945_zpid/

    Basically, just makes the dirt too much of the price of the home–here, it’ll probably be 45-50%.

  11. MG says:

    It will be a 3-flat. The lot is 131 deep so the units should be marginally bigger but the frontage is only 24′. With a side-yard exception likely, the units will be as wide as if on a 25′ lot. As for prices of resultant condos, they’ll likely be a shade off of the top numbers BUT buyers are so rabid for new construction that they’ll likely pay up. I don’t know who bought it but if their build costs are low enough and their profit expectations are tempered, this deal makes sense b/c the lack of new construction inventory will likely cause them to sell fast and they’ll save on the carry costs.

    On a separate but related note, I will say that the “froth” of last year’s spring market is not present in 2014. It is busy but not frantic and i have had deals hung up this year over a few k. A far cry from last year’s “Do you have an offer yet?” from buyer’s agents calling in for showings on day 1 of the listing. An even farther cry from my getting an offer for $10k+ above asking on day 1 of listing on a duplex up on the 1400 block of Wolfram in early 2013 b/c buyer’s was scared of losing his 4th place of the week. It was our first and only showing and the buyer and his agent knew it. They didn’t want to take a chance that someone else was going to swoop in later that day. Those days are mostly gone and buyers are back to asking for credits/repairs on nitpicky inspection items.

  12. MG says:

    typo: “buyer was scared” not “buyer’s was scared”

  13. anon (tfo) says:

    ” if their build costs are low enough and their profit expectations are tempered”

    What’s your guesstimate of ‘low enough’ build costs these days–that is, what’s an active builder in this market segment spending (hard and soft, from day after close to completion of construction) to build condos and sfh? Not what they’d charge me to do it, but what it costs them–under $125 psf?

  14. sonies says:

    MG are you comparing year over year January “frantic-ness” or comparing this January to last spring? Just curious because obviously one scenario has an obvious explanation for lack of activity

  15. MG says:

    Build costs are tough to pin down but $125/sqft is about right – some developers who actually are tradesmen themselves can build for less.

    Frantic comparison was 1/13 v. 1/14

  16. anon (tfo) says:

    “Build costs are tough to pin down”

    yeah, of course.

    “but $125/sqft is about right”

    thx. So, with 5030 sf allowed on this lot (1.2 far, + 1/3, bc the below grade duplex down doesn’t count), that’s about $625k for construction, plus ~$800k for the lot, there’s $1.425m (~$1.5m with sales costs) before profit. So, by the ‘not too greedy’ test, probably targeting ~$1.8m in aggregate sales price–$800k for the DD, and $475 (#2), $550 (#3)–actually seems to be about right (ignoring the gas station, which would totally kill it for me).

  17. anon (tfo) says:

    Oh, and:

    “Frantic comparison was 1/13 v. 1/14″

    People mainly frantic about not freezing this Jan, which I think was Sonies implication, whether comparison was to las Jan or last spring.

    What’s the comparison of bona fide new listings (ie, not listed w/in prior 12 months) this Jan v Jan-13?

  18. MG says:

    There are fewer NEW listings hitting the market this January v. last January. The weather does have something to do with the reduction in activity/panic BUT even the deals that are coming together have been a struggle. The only “struggle” in 2013 was juggling multiple offers on more than half of our listing sales.

  19. homedelete says:

    I don’t blame buyers for wanting new. Rehab projects are a huge pain – and living through them makes it worse.

    It certainly has slowed down in 2014; but the polar vortex isn’t helping either. I know of quite a few people who are buying this spring.

  20. David says:

    MG is 100% correct regarding current market conditions

  21. homedelete says:

    Nonsense, you naysayers are nothing but a bunch of Debbie downers. It’s ALWAYS a good time to buy, or sell, your home.

  22. Sabrina says:

    “There are fewer NEW listings hitting the market this January v. last January. The weather does have something to do with the reduction in activity/panic BUT even the deals that are coming together have been a struggle.”

    The new listings have been AWFUL. I thought for sure we’d see a deluge starting in mid-January and it hasn’t happened. Yeah- I’m thinking the weather is playing a major factor in it.

    But why are the deals suddenly a struggle Mario? Is it because of expectations of buyers v sellers? Are buyers having a hard time getting financing? What has suddenly changed from just 2 months ago?

  23. Sabrina says:

    “MG are you comparing year over year January “frantic-ness” or comparing this January to last spring? Just curious because obviously one scenario has an obvious explanation for lack of activity”

    He didn’t say “lack of activity.” He said it was a struggle. What’s a “struggle”? Shouldn’t the buyers be just as ready to buy as they were in December? What’s caused the change? That’s NOT the weather. Once you put that contract on the property, the weather has nothing to do with it (of course, getting them to see the properties is a whole other thing.)

  24. Dan #2 says:

    Testing

  25. MG says:

    By struggle, I meant buyers are nitpicking over small amounts of money and the inspection has again become a vehicle for “claw back” on price. Financing isn’t an issue. Buyers are just generally more skittish and back to being entitled and unreasonable.

  26. Dan #2 says:

    The inside may have no charm, but the outside is nice. Too bad it will be replaced by something bland. Though I can see why the economics make sense.

    Whether it’s a condo or an SFH, I wouldn’t want to be across from a gas station. But I value peace and privacy more than most.

  27. homedelete says:

    ” Buyers are just generally more skittish and back to being entitled and unreasonable.”

    Oh be careful….In my experience sellers have been more entitled and unreasonable, generally on the price of their home.

  28. JMC says:

    Sabrina… this is an interesting property that came on the market. It is 1/2 off what it cost to build it in 2004. In the suburbs but take a look. 36881 Kimberwick Lane, Wadsworth, IL (http://www.redfin.com/IL/Wadsworth/36881-N-Kimberwick-Ln-60083/home/17722963)

  29. anonny says:

    Agree with anon – that gas station: yuck. And, as someone currently house hunting, I’d have to agree with HD that sellers seem to be pretty unreasonable right now. Just last weekend, we saw a place we really liked that, unfortunately, has a partial view of a gas station from the backdoor/kitchen/deck (it’s almost a block from the gas station). When I included the proximity of the gas station as a consideration with our (admittedly lowball) offer, the seller’s broker kindly informed me that “that’s to be expected when living in an urban environment,” then she suggested that we take our meager budget and look for a place in the equivalent of Ukrainian Village. Not that there’s anything wrong with UK.

    Happy New Year!

  30. DZ says:

    Whoa. No way. It’s been quite the week for old acquaintances. Got an email from someone I hadn’t heard from in 20 years. Sent one to someone I hadn’t talked to in 8 years. Now nonny! Can you finally tell us if you were in latin?

  31. homedelete says:

    Today’s rejected lowball offer more than 10% off listing price is tomorrow’s accepted sale price after a few price reductions.

    I don’t blame sellers for being unreasonable because there are some crazy comps out there. and if I were a buyer now I’d get cold feet too!

    There’s an argument to be made that my home has increased 25% in value in the last 18 months *just based on comps in the last 8 weeks*. I’ve got 3 of the 6 comps needed for an appraisal within walking distance, all rehabbed and have sold for 25% to 33% more than the value of my home in pursuant to an appraisal in September 2012. So of course the measly number of new listings on the market are asking even higher prices than that. Low # of homes for sale, plus somewhat booming upper middle class, plus the crazy premium for updated homes = crazy value. I’m debating selling, pocketing the cash and going back to my $925 a month 2 bedroom apartment in Old Irving Park!

  32. anon (tfo) says:

    “I’ve got 3 of the 6 comps needed for an appraisal within walking distance, all rehabbed and have sold for 25% to 33% more than the value of my home in pursuant to an appraisal in September 2012.”

    I have nearby *teardowns* demanding w/in 5% of my Oct-12 appraisal.

    “my $925 a month 2 bedroom apartment in Old Irving Park!”

    C’mon–record high rents–that has to be up of $1k/mo now.

  33. Homedelete says:

    Are you my former landlord anon(tfo)? rent was raised to $1,000 exactly when I moved out.

    Also, you must live in a real shithole if the tear downs are selling within 5% of your OCt 12 appraisal!

  34. homedelete says:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Park-Ridge/2701-Oakton-St-60068/home/13649210

    This is in within a mile and a half radius of my house. $350 psf for a small house on a very busy street with a home depot is kind of scary. I know that nobody cares about a crapshack in the suburbs but this is insane.

  35. DZ says:

    “Also, you must live in a real shithole if the tear downs are selling within 5% of your OCt 12 appraisal!”

    yurt, maybe even luxury yurt.

    HD, answer my question dammit! Where’s the best of OIP?

  36. homedelete says:

    OIP: South of Irving Park, West of Avondale, North of Addison, East of the Metra.
    North of Irving but south of Montrose is good too but not nearly as nice as south of Irving.
    There are a couple of auxiliary areas like OIP but not OIP that are OK too, including INdependence Park (directly east of OIP); the Villa (also directly east); West walker (north east) and Mayfair (directly north). South of Addison starts to get pretty sketchy pretty quickly and west of Cicero is 100% portage park, not at all like OIP. It’s just a little pocket. I still make it over there for various reasons, and I miss it, but an OIP play was not in the cards for me…

  37. DZ says:

    So you could buy super mario’s listing or a luxury yurt in nortcenter. I guess scammon is not much good but there’s always disney ii as an alternate.

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/3747-N-Lowell-Ave-60641/home/13458486

  38. homedelete says:

    If youre buying that house you’re sending your kid to St Viators a few steps away. That’s a nice block of lowell though. Scammon is not an option, whereas if you’re north of waveland, Belding is at least a viable option. Don’t count on disney ii though, there’s only 20 open slots per year and it’s only for K. The thing about OIP is that it’s cheaper than northcenter. and you get more for your money. this house in northcenter I would imagine is a million bucks or more. but you have to work in finance or be a partner at a major firm to buy a house these days in Northcenter; but you can have a good professional job and still manage to live in OIP. $800k is expensive no doubt but it’s far below the mil+ range it takes to live east of western ave

  39. homedelete says:

    But where I live now, 95% of the new residents I meet are city transplants, almost entirely from the lake front neighborhoods. You can a working couple of a doctor and a lawyer and live in park ridge in a house; but you need to be partner at a midsize or bigger firm, and, you spouse better be a surgeon to live in a SFH east of western. Or work in finance; there’s SO MANY people who work in ‘finance’ (used very generally) these days snapping up prime real estate in the GZ. WHIch I suppose isn’t all that different than NYC

  40. DZ says:

    ” the mil+ range it takes to live east of western ave”

    doesn’t even have to be e of western, or off a major arterial street:
    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2436-W-Addison-St-60618/home/13452372

  41. jay says:

    ” the mil+ range it takes to live east of western ave”

    So you’re saying it takes a 4000 sq ft house on Addison to ‘live’ in the city? I’m guessing an apartment within a good school district for a fraction of the price is out of the question.

  42. homedelete says:

    ” I’m guessing an apartment within a good school district for a fraction of the price is out of the question.”

    Yeah, after kids, an apartment in a good school district for a fraction of the price it out of the question for the vast majority of GZ residents. Even the 3/2 duplex ups/downs are 700,000 in GZ neighbohoods. and then you’re sleeping in the basement too. People on here have lamanted before that a 2/2 is far less than ideal for raising children and they weren’t designed or built for that purpose. And as we’ve discussed before, few people are renting apartments in the GZ for the schools. Just as an anedcote, my buddy was recently considering returning to the city but after looking at rents for 3/2′s or 2/2s for he and his family he decided to stay in the burbs long term; it wasn’t realistic to pay what rents were asking for his family. sure some people do it, but it’s the minority.

  43. anon (tfo) says:

    HD: “Also, you must live in a real shithole if the tear downs are selling within 5% of your OCt 12 appraisal!”

    Selling, no, but demanding, yes. And refi appraisals are BS–overly conservative, but immaterial for our situation.

    Jay: “I’m guessing an apartment within a good school district for a fraction of the price is out of the question.”

    Well, if your family income is ~$150-200k, and you have two kids, so you want 3 beds, 2.5 baths, a parking spot, etc (basically Nonny’s second home criteria, but loosening location, so just ‘good school’ (I’d argue there are ~10 attendance area school, east of Pulaski, that no one could dispute, and another ~10 that are disputable, but still in fact good, ignoring the test/lottery schools) rather than ‘East of Sedgwick/Clark’), there aren’t a ton of options that are ‘affordable’ (ie, under $650k) and not tragically dated, or on a major street. Some, yeah, but not a ton. And if you want a 4th bedroom for whatever reason (home office, 3d kid, frequent visitors), it’s almost impossible. And that’s with a ~top 10% HHI, so it’s not a ridiculous expectation.

  44. anon (tfo) says:

    “it wasn’t realistic to pay what rents were asking for his family”

    And he wasn’t willing to live in a dated apartment in a two flat. I could find him a 3 bed for under $2k (prob find one for $1600, maybe less) in an attendance area that you’d send your kids to, and on a neighborhood street, but it’d be “classic Chicago” inside. The 4th bedroom is a toughie, tho.

  45. homedelete says:

    “classic Chicago”
    Classic Chicago east of Western also has a 50/50 chance of four Big 10 grads or college students living upstairs smoking weed and burning Nag Champa incense 20 out of the 24 hours in a day. I’ve spent 17 years of my life living in Classic Chicago apartments all over the northside of Chicago, so I’m familiar with that it means!

  46. jay says:

    ‘And as we’ve discussed before, few people are renting apartments in the GZ for the schools.’

    I’m not referring to renting, but rather buying. So what’s wrong with this place?
    http://m.trulia.com/property/3142664955-521-W-Belmont-Ave-2-Chicago-IL-60657

    $449k, parking, good school district, 3br/2ba, renovated vintage… what more do you want? *This* is what city living looks like for those in the under 500k club, and if you ‘need’ the type of house that DZ linked in order to live in the city, then perhaps the suburbs are where you should be looking… end of story. No amount of complaining, waiting for the next recession, ‘yeah but’, is going to change the fact that city living comes with large amounts of sacrifice; in this case it’s located directly on Belmont. On the other hand, Dad doesn’t have to sit in snowy traffic to and from DuPage county twice a day, and you may actually get to sit down with your kids for nightly supper.

    Once again, most people just aren’t cut out for city living – accept that fact and get on with your lives.

  47. gringozecarioca says:

    Pot smoking 20 out of 24 hours and co-ed girls going in and out of the building. Sounds like it should be priced at a premium.

  48. homedelete says:

    “Pot smoking 20 out of 24 hours and co-ed girls going in and out of the building. Sounds like it should be priced at a premium.”

    Yes, but the premium paid for the lifestyle is the premium one pays not to live at home with parents, not the premium that families pay to live free from the wonderful smell of nag champa

  49. anon (tfo) says:

    “This seems like a deal and fits criteria.”

    Other than (maybe) the school. Mayer remains questionable enough that th agent felt the need to fib and list Alcott (which most def ain’t the attendance area school) as the first elementary.

    Do wonder if that place floods–the paver yard, and the amount of hard surface to the east, concerns me. Definitely ticks most of the boxes, and, unlike Jay’s pick, actually has an easy to share second bathroom, and a half bath for Jenny’s dinner parties.

  50. homedelete says:

    “This seems like a deal and fits criteria.”

    Except again, there are two cribs in there. Everyone says it fits the criteria, until you actually have to live there, and then the two cribs are a dead giveaway that ‘city living isn’t for everyone’ aka families who can only afford $500,000 duplex downs.

  51. anon (tfo) says:

    HD–all you are doing is proving Jay’s point. Those folks *could* live there just fine with two kids (if there’s a third on the way, not so much), but apparently think that their Wobegon children need to be around more Wobegon kids, who seem to have a disproportionate taste for smack.

  52. homedelete says:

    No anon(tfo), no offense, but you’re missing the point. Every place he’s shown has a crib or a kid’s bed. And despite being suitable – THEY’RE STILL MOVING – and not for some nonsense that “apparently think that their Wobegon children need to be around more Wobegon kids, who seem to have a disproportionate taste for smack” but because $500,000 is a lot of money; and it’s definitely a lot of money for this lifestyle. Everyone thinks its suitable, that is, until they actually have to live it.

  53. jay says:

    ‘Those folks *could* live there just fine with two kids’

    Of course they could. Who knows the reason for their move: maybe it’s a job transfer, larger city place, maybe the burbs.

    I have good friends that just moved from the city to the western burbs after their second child was born. They went from a nice 3br apt in RN to a 4500 sq ft house. Money wasn’t their main objective, but rather it was the classic quality of life for their children excuse, because we all know you need that much space for a family of four. Now dad has to drive to and from the city daily, and I’m thinking the commute was pretty bad tonight, so there goes dinner/quality time with the family; wake up in the morning and do it all over again. According to dad, after a few beers, this was all moms idea and he would have happily stayed downtown and raised his family there.

    Naturally this is just one story, but I’m guessing a lot of that goes on… keep her happy while I sit in traffic.

  54. Sabrina says:

    “Everyone says it fits the criteria, until you actually have to live there, and then the two cribs are a dead giveaway that ‘city living isn’t for everyone’ aka families who can only afford $500,000 duplex downs.”

    A lot of things happen when you have multiple children. Maybe you now need two cars but you only have 1 parking space in the garage at your duplex down? And so you’ve been parking the second car on the street which, frankly, this winter, just isn’t all that appetizing.

    It’s SO MUCH EASIER to just buy the house in the burbs. You get a basement. You get a two car garage. You get much better schools and you aren’t applying to magnets or worrying that your child isn’t a genius. You get a park district where you can actually get into the summer programs (unlike the city.)

    You don’t have to necessarily drive back and forth to work. I know plenty of people who have exchanged the brown line at Lincoln Square (and a 45 minute El ride) for a 25 minute Metra ride from Park Ridge.

  55. Sabrina says:

    Anyone else see the Bloomberg article last week about how the big private equity investors are invading Chicago?
    While I get the foreclosure for $20,000, I don’t understand buying the $380,000 Albany Park home and then expecting to rent it out for $2800.
    How many are renting houses in Albany Park for $2800 a month?
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-13/blackstone-fueled-single-family-home-boom-lifts-chicago.html
    This is why I think the big investors are a HUGE distortion in this market and it’s not going to end well.

    “Invitation Homes entered the market in September 2012, according to Andrew Gallina, a spokesman for the Dallas-based company. Its house near the Family Dollar (FDO) on North Central Park Avenue on the North Side is in the Albany Park neighborhood. It sold for $380,000 last year, according to a warranty deed filed with the Cook County Recorder of Deeds in November. Invitation Homes’ website earlier this year listed the monthly rent as $2,800. “

  56. Sabrina says:

    Here’s one of their houses for $2800 a month. 4 bedrooms 1 bath with 1457 square feet. Indian Boundary Park neighborhood on the north side.

    http://www.invitationhomesforrent.com/apartments/il/chicago/2751-w-greenleaf-ave/index.aspx

  57. Sabrina says:

    Also, on another note, maybe the family with two kids is tired of hearing people walking above them (if they live in a duplex down)? Maybe the people above them have a dog and they’re tired of hearing the endless barking and running back and forth?

    Maybe they’ve realized they have absolutely NO privacy living in a 3 or 6-unit building? That every time they barbecue out back, their neighbors walk by after parking their cars in the garage?

    That there is no space in a shared garage for 2 or 3 bicycles? That they really DO want a backyard and that going to Lincoln Park every weekend isn’t the same as opening the door and letting the kids just run out the back?

    Just some of the reasons I’ve heard for wanting to move.

  58. DZ says:

    “Indian Boundary Park neighborhood on the north side.”

    And you’ve got decatur for elementary, so that’s convenient.

  59. homedelete says:

    http://www.invitationhomesforrent.com/apartments/il/chicago/4623-n-kilbourn-ave/index.aspx

    $2,400 a month to rent a raised ranch in Mayfair? Who are they kidding?

  60. Vlajos says:

    “Mayer remains questionable enough that th agent felt the need to fib and list Alcott (which most def ain’t the attendance area school) as the first elementary.”
    I’m surprised. When looking at non-low income students:
    Mayer is 86% meets and exceeds and 40% exceeds.
    Napperville grade schools are 86% meets and exceeds and 35% exceeds.
    I think we just seeing white lemmings in action.

  61. homedelete says:

    “I think we just seeing white lemmings in action.”

    That’s what you get when the meets or exceeds standards are set artificially low. Basically as long as you show up to school to take the test, and you can print your name on the next in a non-texting syntax, you will ‘meet’ the testing standards.

  62. homedelete says:

    There’s also a major and valid complaint in education that educators are merely ‘teaching the test’ because of strict No Child Left Behind requirements. So it’s no surprise that 86% of students meet the ‘standards’ in Mayer and at Naperville, even though it’s universally understood that Naperville has better schools.

  63. DZ says:

    Not sure how the formatting will survive, but here are elem (and ac) ranked by exceed percentage for isat composite for 2013 for 3rd-8th (as applicable) for “not free lunch” . Numbers are similar but differ slightly from vlajos; not sure if slightly different metric.

    SCHOOL MEET EXCEED
    SKINNER NORTH 100 88
    YOUNG HS 100 86
    LANE HS 100 84
    EDISON, T 100 80
    DECATUR 99 79
    KELLER 100 78
    LENART 97 67
    SKINNER 98 67
    LINCOLN 96 61
    COONLEY 93 60
    MCDADE 98 59
    JENSEN 91 59
    HAWTHORNE 96 59
    TAFT HS 98 59
    MCDOWELL 96 57
    PRITZKER 91 55
    MCCLELLAN 91 55
    BELL 94 53
    BEAUBIEN 87 52
    ORIOLE PARK 90 51
    LASALLE 92 50
    BURLEY 92 49
    FRANKLIN 95 48
    JACKSON, A 91 48
    STEM ES 91 47
    EDGEBROOK 92 47
    UNO CHTR-MARQUEZ 69 46
    COURTENAY 90 46
    POE 96 46
    BLAINE 93 45
    DISNEY 87 45
    COLUMBUS 86 45
    PETERSON 85 44
    BRIGHTON PARK 65 44
    SOUTH LOOP 89 43
    SOLOMON 91 42
    OGDEN HS 88 42
    AGASSIZ 87 42
    DISNEY II 88 41
    NEWBERRY 88 41
    STONE 90 40
    PERSHING 60 40
    OROZCO 84 40
    LOCKE, A CHTR 82 40
    LASALLE II 87 39
    ALCOTT ES 91 39
    KENWOOD HS 97 38
    MCPHERSON 69 38
    ARMSTRONG, G 78 38
    CANTY 88 37
    SAUGANASH 87 37
    LEARN CHTR – HUNTER PERKINS 100 36
    ZAPATA 73 36
    MAYER 88 36
    WATERS 85 36
    PEIRCE 84 36
    WILDWOOD 91 36
    GREGORY 82 35
    TRUMBULL 82 35
    AUDUBON 86 35
    SHABAZZ CHTR-SHABAZZ 78 35
    HEALY 80 35
    THORP, O 86 35
    LINDBLOM HS 97 35
    OGDEN 82 34
    SHERIDAN 87 34
    PRESCOTT 87 34
    MOUNT GREENWOOD 86 34
    ROGERS 83 34
    EBINGER 85 33
    RAY 78 33
    GOUDY 84 33
    HAYT 75 33
    SUTHERLAND 81 33
    RUIZ 77 32
    GOETHE 85 32
    CLINTON 73 32
    BATEMAN 72 32
    SMYSER 83 32
    EARHART 82 32
    TELPOCHCALLI 56 31
    NORWOOD PARK 86 31
    GARVEY 69 31
    PRUSSING 85 31
    NKRUMAH CHTR 81 30
    WEST RIDGE 75 30
    BRIDGE 86 30
    DIXON 77 30
    NETTELHORST 85 30
    HOWE 60 30
    PULASKI 90 30
    FARNSWORTH 84 29
    SWIFT 87 29
    HOLDEN 75 29
    WASHINGTON, G 86 29
    ADDAMS 86 29
    DRUMMOND 80 29
    BURR 81 29
    CICS-IRVING PARK 78 29
    NOBLE ST CHTR-COMER 87 28
    HAMILTON 79 28
    RAVENSWOOD 81 28
    GRISSOM 80 28
    HENRY 78 28
    JAMIESON 79 28
    SHOOP 67 28
    CHGO ACAD ES 83 28
    CHICAGO VIRTUAL CHTR CAMPUS HS 76 27
    WHITTIER 73 27
    CALMECA 82 27
    TALCOTT 75 27
    BELDING 82 27
    UNIV OF CHGO CHTR-NKO 74 27
    SAUCEDO 85 27
    CHAPPELL 89 27
    CHASE 87 27
    WENTWORTH 87 27
    ESMOND 68 26
    VOLTA 80 26
    LOCKE, J 70 26
    GALILEO 81 26
    BUDLONG 76 26
    CARNEGIE 81 25
    HAINES 76 25
    OWEN 89 25
    DARWIN 81 25
    FISKE 67 25
    GRIMES 88 25
    SCAMMON 71 25
    BRENNEMANN 83 25

  64. overfriendlyconcierge says:

    My city-dwelling family has been very lucky in some ways: We hit the jackpot when our 5-year old gained admittance to a well-respected magnet school less than a 10-minute drive from our home (thereby virtually guaranteeing a spot for his younger sister when the time comes), and we live in a lovely vintage 4-bedroom, 3,500 square foot apartment a block from the lake (with a dedicated parking spot), for which we pay $2,500 rent a month.

    My husband and I are constantly reaffirming our desire to stay in the city, but I don’t know how much longer we’ll hold out. We don’t own a home because we wanted to see where our son would land school-wise before committing to a location, and now that we are in a position to make a decision, it just doesn’t seem like the right moment to buy, either. I’d like to hold out and stay where we are for awhile, but the real estate investors have invaded our neighborhood and are buying up nice old apartment buildings left and right, renovating them and jacking up the rents to far beyond what we pay for our space. It makes me wonder whether our landlord will seek to raise our rent when it comes time to renew our lease.

    From watching new home listings for the last 6 months or so, I can say without hesitation that maybe two homes that genuinely interest me in terms of location, condition, and price have come on the market. So much appears very overpriced. At the same time, there’s this growing pressure on rental pricing. We’re caught; we don’t want to buy something we don’t want, and we don’t want to overpay for rent, either. Frankly, even with the privacy of being in one’s own single family home, there’s just no comparison between our current place, and, say, that $2,800 rental on Indian Boundary Park.

    I feel as though some grand demographer is lumping us together with those whose income levels are incrementally higher than ours (and ours would already land us in the top 10%). There’s no more Dominick’s in our neighborhood, and soon our only options will be Mariano’s, Whole Foods, or Aldi. There’s not much for those of us who’d like to be somewhere in the middle – we’re subtly but increasingly being pressured to spend like we’re much wealthier than we are.

  65. Vlajos says:

    That’s what you get when the meets or exceeds standards are set artificially low. Basically as long as you show up to school to take the test, and you can print your name on the next in a non-texting syntax, you will ‘meet’ the testing standards.

    I don’t know if that’s true or not, but Mayer performs as well as Naperville schools when comparing apples to apples.

  66. Vlajos says:

    “So it’s no surprise that 86% of students meet the ‘standards’ in Mayer and at Naperville, even though it’s universally understood that Naperville has better schools.”
    Any proof to any of this?
    Mayer has more kids exceeding than Naperville, which surprised me.

  67. Vlajos says:

    DZ, I got my numbers from the IL Report Card website. I didn’t include science scores, just reading and math, that might be the difference.

    There really is no reason from a school perspective to live in the suburbs. Obviously there are many other reasons one might want to, but anyone with a brain can see how obsolete the old stereotypes have become.

  68. sonies says:

    housing market still crazy, looked at a place this weekend under K in 1 day after the open house…
    like wtf, wouldn’t you want to check the place out more than once before offering? I’m sure the idiots paid above ask as well.

  69. DZ says:

    “just reading and math, that might be the difference.”

    Yeah, I assume that composite includes science. I took the numbers from a cps spreadsheet.

    Surprised that e.g. norwood park looks pretty similar to goethe on this metric. Goethe is viewed as borderline acceptable around logan while norwood desirable out in the far nw.

  70. DZ says:

    “looked at a place this weekend under K in 1 day after the open house…

    What kind of place are you looking for? Or, if you are willing to say since you are not buying it anyway, which specific place was this?

    “like wtf, wouldn’t you want to check the place out more than once before offering?”

    If you (generic you, I don’t mean you, sonies) really knew what you were after and had looked around a lot already, I don’t think it would be that hard to decide. Still want inspection of course. And whether price is reasonable is whole nother matter.

  71. sonies says:

    it was 673 north milwaukee
    was going to work out an offer today but already gone lol

  72. DZ says:

    “it was 673 north milwaukee”

    looks nice, maybe the owners will let my son bring his ez roller over.

  73. Vlajos says:

    “Yeah, I assume that composite includes science. I took the numbers from a cps spreadsheet.

    Surprised that e.g. norwood park looks pretty similar to goethe on this metric. Goethe is viewed as borderline acceptable around logan while norwood desirable out in the far nw”

    I think CPS includes it in the composite score. Regarding Goethe vs. Norwood, my guess is Goethe has a higher low income component, which scares lots of whites. I’ve heard good things about Goethe actually, so not surprising that the non-low income kids do as well as Napperville schools.

  74. DZ says:

    “I’ve heard good things about Goethe actually”

    I know a few people w kids there. Parents are mostly lukewarm.

    My guess is that if you had a finer gradation of socioeconomic status, that would explain vast majority of variance in meet/exceed percentage, setting the test-in (and maybe other selective enrollment) schools aside. That is, if you took e.g. top quintile, they look pretty pretty similar in terms of meet/exceed, maybe not in terms of more refined measures of academic performance but probably in terms of such crude metrics.

  75. jay says:

    @overfriendly

    Very insightful post, but I think you answered your own questions really.

    When is it ever a good time to buy? So you buy when the housing market is low and one fears that it will go even lower – that the city/economy itself will collapse under its own weight and you’ll find yourself crushed under it. Buy when the housing market is high or even when there are noticeable increase in prices, and one fears that they’re overpaying. True, the major housing bubble of the last decade threw *everyone* for a loop and skewed any reasonable sense of housing/pricing order, but that was then and this is now, and life moves forward often to the detriment of many CC readers. You’re witnessing firsthand that inertia in your own neighborhood as the middle is being replaced by the upper, and I don’t think that’s likely to reverse itself anytime soon – it’s bigger than a short term high price/low price cycle as *long* term demographics of city living (in certain neighborhoods naturally) are at play.

    Sure the middle can ‘comfortably’ stay where they are in your neighborhood, but their standards will have to be adjusted or they’ll simply have to leave for the ‘ease’ of the suburbs – it just is what it is. I would guess that any sociologist right after WWII knew that they were kidding themselves if they truly believed that the push for suburban living was just a passing trend, as it wasn’t. I’d also argue that anyone who believes that your neighborhood today is going to regress to comfortable middle class pricing, also knows they’re kidding themselves; I’m guessing the apartment investors in your area spent millions of dollars and hours just coming to that conclusion, as I doubt it was a random guess. There will be highs and lows as there always has been – I bought in ’88 (high), early 90′s (low, actually underwater), mid/late 90′s (an okay recovery), early 2000s (nicer recovery but somewhat stagnant as the trend was housing quantity over neighborhood quality), teens (incredible price increases as location actually means something again). But one has to live somewhere, and what kind of life do you want to carve out for yourself? Live by short term highs and lows or long term goals?

  76. anonny says:

    The continued obsession with the school statistics is crazy. Some are “ranked” higher than certain schools that arguably offer a better environment and community and long-term educational prospects. Heck, I’m very far away, and just a couple of days ago someone familiar with Chicago, who has friends with elem-aged kids in Chicago, was sharing the friends’ stress about how their kids can’t attend Disney. There are schools on that list I’ve never heard of that “outrank” Disney, despite the fact that Disney apparently has a nationwide reputation among educated professional types.

  77. anon (tfo) says:

    “There are schools on that list I’ve never heard of that “outrank” Disney”

    Most of the one’s you never heard of are gifted/magnet schools on the southside, or neighborhood schools near HD’s suburban spread.

    As I’ve noted before, I think that there is a single stat that differentiates neighborhood elems b/t acceptable and unaccepable–low income percentage below 50%. The magnets/gifteds can be above and be ‘yuppie good’, but not the neighborhoods.

    As to Disney’s rep, there are two of them (so a *lot* of kids get in), they are located in places near more affordable (but still UMC) housing options, Disney I has been around for a (relative) long time, they are adding a HS. Also, it’s akin to the people who say stupid shit like “why don’t you just send your kid to Payton? I hear it’s a great school.”

  78. DZ says:

    “As I’ve noted before, I think that there is a single stat that differentiates neighborhood elems b/t acceptable and unaccepable–low income percentage below 50%. The magnets/gifteds can be above and be ‘yuppie good’, but not the neighborhoods.”

    Nettlelhorst is sub 50 low income, so nettelhorst is yupceptable. Goethe (e.g.) is better than nettelhorst by the vlajos how do the rich kids fare metric. Vlajos is a yuppie (not conclusive but all signs point that way). Therefore, by the transitive property (where is MM?), goethe is yupceptable. But goethe is above 50 low income. Uh oh, @fo is wrong.

    Replace goethe w trumball, etc. Repeat.

  79. DZ says:

    “trumball”

    okay, maybe stick w schools still open.

  80. Vlajos says:

    My metric was non low income. That does not mean only rich kids.

  81. anon (tfo) says:

    ” Vlajos is a yuppie (not conclusive but all signs point that way).”

    Vlajos lives in a ‘hood (not conclusive but all signs point that way) that nonny has never heard of (or at least pretends to). So, not a yup.

    “goethe is yupceptable. But goethe is above 50 low income”

    Does Goethe show up in $500k+ house listings? Or do they claim a semi-nearby magnet? If ot listed, not yupceptable.

  82. DZ says:

    “My metric was non low income. That does not mean only rich kids.”

    I took your underlying point to be how would hte kids of the buyers of the Mayer place do and the buyers are well above not low income. Maybe not “rich” but no one really admits to that.

  83. DZ says:

    ” If ot listed, not yupceptable”

    I could have sworn someone proved rigorously ohterwise. And I thought your standard would be whether nonny had heard of it. Also, this shows goethe. Yeah I know it’s not in the writeup, but it’s pretty unusual for agent to identify non desired school in the school field (yeah yeah I know, clemente).
    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2306-N-Maplewood-Ave-60647/home/13417415

    “The magnets/gifteds can be above and be ‘yuppie good’, but not the neighborhoods.”

    I can’t really deny that they could be, but is there really an example of such? Where I’m willing to go w less stringent defn of yuptable than whether nonny deigns to acknowledge.

  84. Vlajos says:

    Vlajos lives in a ‘hood (not conclusive but all signs point that way) that nonny has never heard of (or at least pretends to). So, not a yup.

    Very likely.

  85. DZ says:

    Is anyone/everyone else having the issue that comments show up with a time delay when not logged in (ie, name and email show in teh leave a reply boxes)? I see really recent comments listed on the most recent comments ticker. Once I click on them I get taken to thread that doesn’t have the really recent comments. And the most recent ticker no longer shows the really recent comments any longer.

  86. anon (tfo) says:

    “Maybe not “rich” but no one really admits to that.”

    The leapfrog squatter pretty much did. And Ze, and Westloop, and whatshisname from Kenilworth, and (going way back) John (?) who was renting penthouses in Miami for $87.50 a month.

    ” this shows goethe”

    1. Agent offices in Naperville.
    2. Sold before print, so no advantage to saying “Decatur ES, Payton HS, Harvard U., Yale Law, etc”.
    3. Hoooleee, was that 2006 owner greedy! $632k for that crapshack? Dude had bought the place in Jul-89 for ~$40k, and had $150k in mortgages on it in ’06. If he’d asked $450k for it, probably would have sold. Crazy.

  87. anon (tfo) says:

    “Is anyone/everyone else having the issue that comments show up with a time delay when not logged in (ie, name and email show in teh leave a reply boxes)? I see really recent comments listed on the most recent comments ticker. Once I click on them I get taken to thread that doesn’t have the really recent comments. And the most recent ticker no longer shows the really recent comments any longer.”

    Yes. Sonies noted it a few weeks ago, too.

  88. sonies says:

    school discussions are the pits

    re: DZ I see comments on the main page, click them and then they just aren’t posted yet when you actually go to the page until like an hour later.

    Seriously sabrina, go back to the site with at least instant post responses! Its pretty annoying

  89. Vlajos says:

    “Is anyone/everyone else having the issue that comments show up”
    Yes, it’s terrible.

  90. Homedelete says:

    Despite the upper class taking over the lakefront neighborhoods, citizens continue to flee the city to the tune of thousands a month. The population of chicago has been dropping for 100 years.

  91. Vlajos says:

    Actually, according to the census, Chicago has gained population since 2010.

  92. homedelete says:

    Actually, I was wrong. Chicago has been losing population since 1950, but it’s been 100 years since our population was at the level it is today

    Historical population
    Census Pop. %±
    1840 4,470

    1850 29,963 570.3%
    1860 112,172 274.4%
    1870 298,977 166.5%
    1880 503,185 68.3%
    1890 1,099,850 118.6%
    1900 1,698,575 54.4%
    1910 2,185,283 28.7%
    1920 2,701,705 23.6%
    1930 3,376,438 25.0%
    1940 3,396,808 0.6%
    1950 3,620,962 6.6%
    1960 3,550,404 ?1.9%
    1970 3,366,957 ?5.2%
    1980 3,005,072 ?10.7%
    1990 2,783,911 ?7.4%
    2000 2,893,666 3.9%
    2010 2,695,598 ?6.8%

    I don’t anything about the gaining population since 2010 census.

  93. Vlajos says:

    The City gained about 20,000 people from 2010 to 2012.
    http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/17/1714000.html

  94. DZ says:

    “Does Goethe show up in $500k+ house listings? Or do they claim a semi-nearby magnet? If ot listed, not yupceptable.”
    “Agent offices in Naperville.”

    This features Brentano (level one!), which is def less yuptable than goethe. And the realtor lives in a’ville!

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2430-N-Francisco-Ave-60647/home/13450359

  95. Milkster says:

    “There’s no more Dominick’s in our neighborhood, and soon our only options will be Mariano’s, Whole Foods, or Aldi. There’s not much for those of us who’d like to be somewhere in the middle – we’re subtly but increasingly being pressured to spend like we’re much wealthier than we are.”

    overfriendlyconcierge, I’m guessing you live in Edgewater?

  96. Vlajos says:

    Edgewater has two Jewels.

  97. homedelete says:

    “Edgewater has two Jewels.”

    I believe they’re called ‘jems’ and they’re the lakefront and blocks with the older four square homes.

  98. overfriendlyconcierge says:

    Milkster, I do live in Edgewater. I love this neighborhood and would like to stay here a long time.

    It may come to pass that I flee Chicago, but it’ll be a cold day in hell I flee it for any of the surrounding suburbs (this liberal can’t abide the casual bigotry). If I leave Chicago, my family end up back on the East Coast, where I grew up.

  99. anon (tfo) says:

    “a cold day in hell I flee it for any of the surrounding suburbs (this liberal can’t abide the casual bigotry)”

    Oak Park makes most of Chicago seem deep red. Evanston is at least on par with most of Chicago.

  100. homedelete says:

    everyone I’ve ever known who bought in Oak Park, and it’s more than a handful, complains about the ridiculous real estate taxes. I don’t think they’re that much crazier than any other UMC suburb. I now live in the conservative NW suburbs and I have yet to meet anyone who complains about the RE taxes. I know my offhanded story doesn’t mean much but it’s ironic to me at least.

  101. anon (tfo) says:

    ” I know my offhanded story doesn’t mean much but it’s ironic to me at least.”

    Anecdata. Embrace it, HD.

    It is funny. Everyone I know in OP complains about the taxes, too. Now, some of them pay over 3% of their purchase price (which is like 4% of AV), so it’s understandable, but complaining about taxes is not actually a contraindication of “liberal” values, and it *certainly* isn’t correlated with casual bigotry. The PC police are quite active in OP.

  102. gringozecarioca says:

    HD… In the past 6 years on cc, has anything you ever said meant much?

  103. anon (tfo) says:

    Ze–He as much as told us his name at one point**. So there is at least one fact conveyed, even if 100% of the rest of it was intentional and unintentional “obfuscation”.

    **Only so many lawyers and/or paralegals who bought a house in Stone Park bt 1/1/10 and 12/31/13.

  104. Sabrina says:

    “There’s no more Dominick’s in our neighborhood, and soon our only options will be Mariano’s, Whole Foods, or Aldi. There’s not much for those of us who’d like to be somewhere in the middle – we’re subtly but increasingly being pressured to spend like we’re much wealthier than we are.”

    “overfriendlyconcierge, I’m guessing you live in Edgewater?”

    This is an interesting discussion and I’m glad someone brought it up. A friend of mine lived in Edgewater not that far from where the new Whole Foods (aka old Dominicks) will go in. She left the state 3 years ago but occasionally checks real estate listings to see what is happening in her old nabe. She lived there for 10 years. She recently e-mailed me because she couldn’t believe the prices.

    Over $300,000 and sometimes over $400,000 for 2/2s in Edgewater? Why???
    Oh- and all the listings are advertising “near the new Whole Foods.” Really??? That’s why someone should buy? I know realtors commonly refer to the Starbucks and, yes, the Marianos gets mentioned now too. But if a coffee chain and a grocery chain are the only reason you’re moving to that neighborhood, then there is something wrong.

    Is Edgewater even middle class anymore? The SFHs have been expensive for years but the condos were much more affordable. Is that going away now too?

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