From Starter Home to Luxury Home in 6 Years: 832 N. Marshfield in West Town
This 3-bedroom single family home at 832 N. Marshfield in the East Village neighborhood of West Town just came on the market.
If it looks familiar, that’s because we chattered about it several times in 2010.
You can see our first chatter about it in March 2010.
It took about 6 months to sell but finally sold for $100,000 under its original list price in October 2010. See the chatter on the sale here.
Back in 2010, most of you thought this was an attractive price even though you questioned the neighborhood. We also had quite the discussion about the Chicago Avenue bus.
If you recall, the house was built in 1903 but updated in the 1990s. In 2010, it still had the older kitchen. You can see those pictures in the prior chatter.
Now, there is a new kitchen which is open to the living space which has an island. It has white cabinets, stone counter tops and stainless steel appliances.
The living room has 20 foot high ceilings.
There’s no basement but there’s a family room on the main floor.
All three bedrooms are on the second level.
There are two decks, one outside the family room and the second one directly above it, accessed through the master bedroom.
The house is built on a standard 25×125 Chicago lot, has a 2-car garage and central air.
In 2010, many of us considered this house a starter home, or a townhouse or duplex down alternative.
Originally listed at $549,900, it sold for $450,000.
The house is now listed 61% higher than the 2010 purchase price at $724,900.
Are luxury prices now the norm for single family homes in the East Village?
Seth Vamos at @properties has the listing. See the pictures here.
832 N. Marshfield: 3 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, 2178 square feet, 2 car garage
- Sold in May 1994 for $43,000
- Sold in October 1994 for $96,000
- Was listed in March 2010 for $549,900
- Reduced
- Was listed in May 2010 for $499,900
- Reduced
- Was listed in August 2010 for $479,000
- Sold in September 2010 for $450,000
- Currently listed for $724,900
- Taxes now $8028 (they were $7652 in October 2010)
- Central Air
- Bedroom #1: 20×12 (second floor)
- Bedroom #2: 12×12 (second floor)
- Bedroom #3: 12×12 (second floor)
- Family room: 19×10 (main level)
“Are luxury prices now the norm for single family homes in the East Village?”
Depends what you mean by luxury prices. Teardowns now can go as high as $460K and they are building $1.4 MM homes here now. However, between East Village and Ukrainian Village it has been possible over the last year to buy SFHs under 600K but they might be on a smaller lot or only have 2 bedrooms or only 1 full bath.
With all the high end new construction here the neighborhood has gotten a lot better. I personally improved the desirability of the neighborhood by buying here.
Just another confirmation of a crib chatter favorite saying: “Buy now or be priced our foreverrrrrr”. This home may list for $1.2MM by 2020.
“Depends what you mean by luxury prices.”
No middle class person is buying a $724,000 house. That is the upper bracket. It’s not $1.4 million top 1% of the city bracket. But it’s upper bracket.
These are similar prices for a SFH that you would find in Winnetka, Glencoe, LaGrange, Park Ridge, Evanston, Oak Park where the house would have more “luxury” finishes (new kitchens and baths, upscale appliances, three car garages if new construction etc.)
Of course, if the bank let you put just 5% down, you’d only need $35,000 in cash to buy this home. I’m not sure what they’re doing these days in the jumbo loan market.
Sonies,
Read the previous post on this place. we had a discussion and many who would have thought 6 years ago Ilini sports would be like this today?
(two post in already derailed from the property)
Everyone is so worried about valuations on the stock market and how it’s not “cheap enough” yet but no one is talking about the housing market across the nation and how most major cities are back to record highs (and beyond). It’s well above the increases in incomes during the same time.
The South Shore neighborhood or Rogers Park may still be suffering and owners may be underwater but in the GreenZone prices are soaring.
This house is trying to get 10% appreciation a year. In Chicago. Where the “average” appreciation for the last 85 years has been 3% to 5%.
Why aren’t people worried about the housing bubble that is growing every year? But no one is. The press isn’t even covering it yet it’s a bigger story than the stock market.
I’d take this over the duplex down alternatives. $725k seems a bit rich for the area, but who knows. The buyers bought at a good time. This neighborhood will definitely gentrify so there is a lot of long term appeal.
here is what you can buy in chicago for $725k;
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/6240-N-Livermore-Ave-60646/home/13513350
you can be right on the metra line;
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/6556-N-Ponchartrain-Blvd-60646/home/13592004
Thank you Groove. And that’s not even leaving the city.
But different location. For some reason more people want to live near the excitement of Ashland and Chicago than in the lovely, wooded area of Old Edgebrook.
I just looked at the listings in Portage Park. Lots of new construction and rehabs but you’re going to be paying $400,000+ for a renovated/updated bungalow in that neighborhood now.
“This neighborhood will definitely gentrify so there is a lot of long term appeal.”
Russ- are you telling me that in 5 to 10 years this house will be worth well over $1 million? Even though rates can’t go much lower?
How do you figure? I get “gentrification” but this house, at $724,000 is ALREADY gentrified.
another metra stop in a quieter underrated hood;
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/5245-N-Lamon-Ave-60630/home/13498249
“But different location. For some reason more people want to live near the excitement of Ashland and Chicago than in the lovely, wooded area of Old Edgebrook”
I understand the appeal of west town, I love the fact of the location is really close to a lot of stuff and traffic ova dare is really good (at the moment). But its still sketchy and even though you are close to stuff, you are only close to it, nothing is really opening up in the immediate hood so you still have to leave your hood to get/go to something.
Plus its still sketchy, and since its the new hood for realtors to move the price has gone up way higher than what its worth. prices there 7-10 years ago were worth the sacrifices, today HECK NAW.
Sabrina, no that is not what I am saying as it pertains to this particular property. I think it is probably over priced. However, there are people paying upwards of a $1 million for single family homes in the area as Gary points out. The area has long term appeal and while it doesn’t quite offer the same depth of trinket stores and hip restaurants and is a little rough on the edges, it is changing rapidly.
It may not appeal to the NorthFace vest/Khaki pants set just yet, but it is getting there.
holy shit groove… Being an Illini fan is so sad today 🙁
I can’t believe some of the crap I said in that thread hahaha
like “If I could afford a 550k house, i’d cab to work every day”
yeah, no
“Jeremy Richmond’s one college basketball season”
hahahaha
“Being an Illini fan is so sad today”
doode they hired a division III guy to take over? WTF?
“I can’t believe some of the crap I said in that thread hahaha”
cribchatter is like an awesome time capsle of our stupidity. I love it.
“It may not appeal to the NorthFace vest/Khaki pants set just yet, but it is getting there.”
I thought north face is played out and they are on to Patagonia and Marmot? and moved from khaki to tan chinos?
Oh and Groove, Leron Black just got charged with a felony last night for pulling a knife on a bouncer and threatening him… wtf man!
nice finds Groove. I like the Lamon yard, and the Livermore carport. All are too rich for my blood.
“Oh and Groove, Leron Black just got charged with a felony last night for pulling a knife on a bouncer and threatening him… wtf man!”
Yeah how’s that knee doing.
really still to this day i am perplexed at the inability for the illini to recruit anyone from chicago 2 hours away?
“the “average” appreciation for the last 85 years has been 3% to 5%.”
It’s more like inflation plus 50 bips. And if you said 30 bips, I wouldn’t argue.
Which makes the 10% pa over teh past 5 even more anomalous.
“nice finds Groove. I like the Lamon yard, and the Livermore carport. All are too rich for my blood.”
personally i would never pay that much anywhere on the far NW side, well only in old edgebrook woods.
As a family, i cannot see West Town as a viable option at its current prices. and take this home, which is nice, at $725k there are many other hoods for that price which are light years better for a family.
even for 725k you can live here and be in a decent school district, walking distance to food and shopping;
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/4127-N-Claremont-Ave-60618/home/13390959
you have options at that price
I hate poorly designed mechanical systems. That huge duct running the center of the house looks really bad, especially from the angle of picture 2
“here is what you can buy in chicago for $725k”
you could of bought an updated cottage in bucktown for the same price. sold a few months ago for 726k. sure, it’s a smaller lot, but i would think the neighborhood would command a higher price than this place.
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2141-W-Homer-St-60647/home/13356021
That micro over the stove screams luxury. No but seriously, I see the challenge with doing a hood in a building, but in a SFH, why not just do it?
“an updated cottage in bucktown”
I like it more, *but* only two beds up.
“but in a SFH, why not just do it?”
cost? some people don’t care about it as much as you and would rather not pay another $500-1000 for another appliance.
“That huge duct running the center of the house looks really bad, especially from the angle of picture 2”
Cant tell from the few pics but i think half of that bump out is most likely a structural beam to carry the load. Other half ducting, seems logical if you gonna have that from the ceiling already to add ducting to make it wider to fill the span of the walkway.
“i think half of that bump out is most likely a structural beam to carry the load”
i thought it may be a beam as well. I’m no engineer but wouldn’t the beam need to be supported by something though? the beam doesn’t die into anything near the vent.
“cost? some people don’t care about it as much as you and would rather not pay another $500-1000 for another appliance.”
Sure, but what’s one of those micro/hood combos cost? I paid like $100 for a “stainless” countertop micro. If it’s a galley kitchen, etc., no biggie, but in these “open” concept places, I think an attractive hood is worth it, even if one never actually uses it.
I cannot believe some people pay $1.4 million to leave near Ashland and Chicago Ave. They have police cameras blinking at that intersection.
“wouldn’t the beam need to be supported by something though?”
Probably a cross beam at the end of the upper floor, carrying the load over to the brick. Could then have the length-wise beam attached under the cross beam.
That seems unlikely, tho. More likely the beam was cut into the joist, and a cross beam butted in, and that also would have made it impossible to run ducts thru the floor/ceiling.
“Sure, but what’s one of those micro/hood combos cost? I paid like $100 for a “stainless” countertop micro.”
this one, probably $200. I agree a hood looks much better. a lot of people would rather not take up counter space for a micro. best option is to build it in an island or some other cabinetry.
Nice drive-by thumbs down on my post, you little weasel anon(tfo). You loser.
anyone have a link to converting a microwave to a hood while not ripping out the cabinets above?
” I’m no engineer but wouldn’t the beam need to be supported by something though? the beam doesn’t die into anything near the vent”
thats why i preloaded my comment with “Cant tell from the few pics”. You have the vaulted ceiling going on in the living room so depending how the the structure is in the rafters, beam would carry the load of the second floor and spread out to the exterior walls with the joist coming from the walls that are hung to the beam.
Think of a ski lodge in denver, look up in the open space and see how the beams are tied into the rafters. some may seem to float until you look up. same concept but the here the sctructur is covered by a ceiling and the second floor its covered by walls.
…or it was a crappy job and that’s all duct work
“what’s one of those micro/hood combos cost? I paid like $100 for a “stainless” countertop micro.”
It’s a ‘entry’ brand, they’re about $200.
But then, so is an ‘entry’ vented hood:
http://www.abt.com/product/47141/Broan-QP130SS.html
And the extra install is basically $30 in materials, and cutting a hole in the wall–when, as here, the range is on an outside wall already.
I like this neighborhood. It’s really close to everything. I could see myself moving to this area at some point.
thanks anon and groove for the info on the structure.
“But then, so is an ‘entry’ vented hood”
my gut tells me that won’t pass anonny’s standards and he’s probably wanting a chimney hood.
I have a hood, it’s worth every penny. From a design perspective, it’s one of those things that makes you scratch your head if you didn’t do. Sort of like people who say first class isn’t worth the extra money have never flown first class.
That neighborhood is sketchy and gross. I don’t understand the appeal. SFH built on a slab screams “corner cut” as well. Overall, yuk.
So we have a couple of folks here that think the hood is sketchy. I certainly wouldn’t be living here if I thought it was sketchy and I don’t think people would be plunking down $1.4 MM for new homes either. Here is a map I created a while back with 12 months of aggravated assault and battery incidents: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=z36CCQSwYwtU.k0Or8Vtf_oq4
Looks no worse than Wicker Park or River North, though not as quiet as Lincoln Park and North Center. It’s pretty sketchy around the bars in east Lake View.
Leafy streets and beautiful housing stock around there. Plus Chicago Avenue and Ashland have some interesting commerce and street life. I can see the value.
The convenience of this neighborhood is great. Being able to buy a single family home for this price in a neighborhood a short drive from downtown is great.
HD, what is the point of a hood? I have never had one, but I don’t ever cook except in the microwave. I also don’t enjoy foods that create a strong odor in my home or even in a restaurant. I can’t even go into the Weber Grill restaurant without feeling sick.
The neighborhood is OK. It just doesn’t seem like a $1.4 million hood. You still have Golder Prep and Wells HS. These are not going anywhere. We may have covered this years back, but it’s simply not possible that every gentrifying neighborhood is going to be a feeder for the North Shore, Elmhurst, Hinsdale, etc. Not every zip code is going to fill up with kids going to Latin or the selective CPS high schools.
The stretch of Ashland from Grand to Division is nothing, zip, nada, not worth being thought of as a $1.4 million locale. The area around Eckhart Park never turned the corner very well either and it’s 2016. How many years since 2000 are we to call this stuff “up and coming”?
Also, does anyone have any stats comparing “shootings” from 1980 versus today? You keep hearing that murders are down from approx. 900 to 500 per annum during this timeframe. But I’m wondering how much more advanced triage and paramedics/ER are today. So, it’s probably the “shootings” rate that is the best comparison versus the death rate.
The area east of Ashland has a very different vibe than the area west of Ashland. The income demographics definitely go up once you cross west, which actually surprises me since the area to the east is actually better in terms of proximity to downtown, highways, activities, public transportation.
Jenny
the hood really helps gets rid of the smell. it just sucks it up and out. very nice. it also helps suck up some of the heat from the oven too.
it’s extremely unfortunate that you only cook using a microwave. the only thing I cook in the microwave is bacon.
not being able to cook is OK but only using a microwave is quite frankly what college aged kids slumming in an apartment do. and who doesn’t like the smell of steak?
“it’s extremely unfortunate that you only cook using a microwave.”
Nice job hd, she needs to be shamed. Jenny, hd’s revulsion towards a woman who is unwilling to learn to cook is your wake up call. Are you OK, ending up as what used to be called an “old maid”? You aren’t getting any younger, tighter, etc. https://heartiste.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/1890shitlord1.jpeg
this just went “contingent”… west side of Ashland is smokin’!!!
There’s nothing wrong with being a spinster; there’s a lot of terrible men out there and being alone is often a better choice than having a bad husband. There’s a saying out there that it’s better to have 10% of a good man than 100% of a bad man. There are a lot more ‘bad’ men out there than ‘good’ men, so you better get used to sharing. There’s so many men that are abusers, philanders, degenerate gamblers, ne’er-do-wells, impotent, workaholics, drunks/substance abusers, criminals, have baggage like ex-wifes/baby mommas, that yeah, it’s not easy to snag a ‘good’ man. But I’ll tell you this: as a woman, having no cooking whatsoever is the equivalent of a man who has an aversion to working. Women run as far and as fast as they can from the man who won’t work and has no means to support himself or a family. Many men feel the same way about women who refuse to cook.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_way_to_a_man's_heart_is_through_his_stomach
Personally, I’m a very progressive guy. My woman expects me to cook and I expect her to work. and it works wonderfully!
“Jenny, hd’s revulsion towards a woman who is unwilling to learn to cook is your wake up call.”
Is this 1926 instead of 2016? This exact story line was just on a episode of Downton Abbey, when Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes got married in their 60s, Mr. Carson still expected Mrs. Hughes to perform her wifely duties (cooking/cleaning etc.) even though they both had full time jobs up in the big house.
That was in the 1920s though.
There’s no reason for a woman to know how to cook any more than a man (and most chefs are men anyway). If you live in a major city, who is cooking? No one. Every type of food you could ever want can be delivered to your door.
And I’m so tired of the men on here going on and on about women being old maids.
Yes- women would rather be single, travel the world and spend their money how they see fit instead of ending up with you helmethofer.
“I certainly wouldn’t be living here if I thought it was sketchy and I don’t think people would be plunking down $1.4 MM for new homes either.”
If you look at the crime statistics there are a lot of different things going on in West Town, specifically this area west of Ashland all the way to Humboldt Park, versus, say Lakeview or North Center.
There are drug arrests in both neighborhoods but Lakeview’s are for the lesser drugs and West Towns tend to be for the harder drugs (heroin etc.) I think people would be shocked to see how many of their “neighbors” are busted in that West Town neighborhood.
Also, more burglaries of homes. Lakeview has more of cars and of the person. Lakeview is denser, with more restaurants/bars, so not surprised people are mugged more walking home.
All things being equal- why am I paying nearly $800,000 for THIS neighborhood with crappy schools?
But the fact is, that West Town is extremely hot right now. Highest prices EVER in that neighborhood. Hot, hot, hot.
This is fitting given the recent discussion of Jenny’s singlehood:
From NY Magazine:
“In 2009, the proportion of American women who were married dropped below 50 percent. In other words, for the first time in American history, single women (including those who were never married, widowed, divorced, or separated) outnumbered married women. Perhaps even more strikingly, the number of adults younger than 34 who had never married was up to 46 percent, rising 12 percentage points in less than a decade. For women under 30, the likelihood of being married has become astonishingly small: Today, only around 20 percent of Americans are wed by age 29, compared to the nearly 60 percent in 1960.
It is a radical upheaval, a national reckoning with massive social and political implications. Across classes, and races, we are seeing a wholesale revision of what female life might entail. We are living through the invention of independent female adulthood as a norm, not an aberration, and the creation of an entirely new population: adult women who are no longer economically, socially, sexually, or reproductively dependent on or defined by the men they marry.”
http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/02/#
“specifically this area west of Ashland all the way to Humboldt Park,”
You can not possibly lump all these areas together. I follow the crime in the area. The vibe totally changes as you cross Ashland, cross Damen, and cross Western.
Any way you cut it, the crime is there in this entire area. It’s gotten better since the last time we chattered about this house, which was 6 years ago. And yes, the economy has gotten better too which helps.
But no one can dispute that the crime in this neighborhood is very different from that which happens closer to the lake front.
And besides, EVERY neighborhood is block by block. Some blocks are creepy and there are break-ins of cars etc. even in Lincoln Park. And I should know, because I’ve been up and down just about every block in most of the GreenZone now.
I love how everyone can just dismiss the bad schools in this entire neighborhood as “oh, they’ll send them to private schools.” Which ones? Just because they’re private doesn’t mean they’re good. And all their cherubs aren’t getting into the British School or Latin. There simply aren’t enough class spots for everyone buying $800,000+ houses in West Town.
I don’t see anyone on this thread dismissing the schools in this area. However, if all the people in the neighborhood sent their kids to these schools they would suddenly become “good schools”. But admittedly it’s hard to get that started.
Regardless of gender roles…
…when one’s main cooking is in a microwave and has an avoidance to food being made in her place because of odor(all foods will have a smell, its 70% of its appeal), then said person would probably be single and would take that much more to find a partner willing or understanding of said situation.
there is a partner for that person but the real issue is the person maybe to picky and overlook the one who would overlook that persons oddities/preferences.
Disclaimer: The grooves household is straight out of the 1950’s. And we love it that way! Wifey cooks breakfast and dinner Sunday-Thursday, is a homemaker, irons my clothes and the kids clothes for the next day, walks the kid to and from school, and keeps our home spotless.
I do all the typical “man” stuff, which is 1/3 of what she does. Because of all she does I never so “no” to anything she says or wants. I do whatever she wants by the time she says it should be done. She gets all the money and i NEVER question (to her) how she spends it. Also if she gets tired of me and wants a divorce, she gets it all absolutely everything. All i need is a pair of underwear, one set of clothes, and my teddy bear. She gets it all, she earned it all.
“Also if she gets tired of me and wants a divorce, she gets it all absolutely everything.”
We call that “it’s cheaper to keep her”. =
“It is a radical upheaval, a national reckoning with massive social and political implications.”
When a society fails to reproduce, it ceases to exist over time. Duh! Why would anyone (but the leftist fishwraps like NYMag) celebrate that?
Jenny, who can’t even cook, is the type who will be demanding a cleaning lady and nanny the minute she has a kid. Just sayin… men are not attracted to that.
“Yes- women would rather be single, travel the world and spend their money how they see fit instead of ending up with you helmethofer.”
Oh yeah? I see the 30-ish single women every damn day in the elevators of my building in the Loop. They don’t look all chipper, most of them have a btichy scowl on their faces holding a $3.75 Starbucks cup going to their meaningless mid-level managerial jobs where they do conference calls and talk about “meetings” and use corporate buzzwords like robots. It’s useless! They may do some Eat Yoga Slut vacation once a year, but that’s not true happiness, compared to having grandkids someday.
“there’s a lot of terrible men out there and being alone is often a better choice than having a bad husband.”
Wrong. There are alot of decent men out there. It’s the 80/20 rule. 80% of the women are seeking the top 20% of the men. These single btches will literally “put out” and then hold out until their mid 30’s thinking that they’ll land one. Then it’s the decent guy who ends of with the terrible aforementioned woman….who will want money, cleaning lady, restaurant meals, nannies, etc. from the hapless nice guy, who she only ended up with because she settled and couldn’t land one of the 20% types. Eve corrupted Adam, not the other way around, lol.
“We call that “it’s cheaper to keep her””
It has nothing to do with pre-nup or other divorce laws. Its she has earned all of it and deserves all of it. I would be nothing if didn’t have her support and have her by my side. A homemaker is a hugely an under appreciated thing.
BTW, I have no choice in the “keep her” phrase you mention.
I cook, because I’m much better at that than my wife and she works more hours than I do (in the office at least)
“I cook, because I’m much better at that than my wife and she works more hours than I do (in the office at least)”
Trump will have you deported for being such a symbol of the p*ssification of America.
heh
Trump is the shit
He’s gonna win, and its gonna be great
ps: He’ll make you pay your own airfare, too. And you’ll do it just to be able to say “Trump told me ‘You’re fired…from being an American'”.
“and she works more hours than I do (in the office at least)”
Well Duh, you spend most of your office time posting on CribChatter.
heh nah I spend maybe 2-3 minutes a couple times a day unless the conversation is really going strong
“heh nah I spend maybe 2-3 minutes a couple times a day unless the conversation is really going strong”
that just CC, what about all the other blogs you frequent?
“Trump will have you deported for being such a symbol of the p*ssification of America.”
LOL, that’s a good one anon. He sounds like one of those typical dupe tradcons that likes to refer to the wife as “the boss”. “Let me check with the boss, ha ha ho ho” or one of those types who says “you know happy wife, happy home! ha ha ho ho”.
But give him credit he didn’t marry a bitch, nag, or some shrew, it sounds like. Cheers on that.
^^^ talking about Groove not Sonies
helmet,
I don’t know what world you live in but a lot of guys will put up with a lot of $hit from a wife if she’s attractive and especially if the female is as attractive as the guy is ever going to get. like I tell my wife, some dudes just can’t let go.
but then again the graffito in the bathroom at Hamiltons said ‘no matter now hot she is, there’s some guy some where is sick of her shit.
“Then it’s the decent guy who ends of with the terrible aforementioned woman….who will want money, cleaning lady, restaurant meals, nannies, etc. from the hapless nice guy,”
OMG! Not “money, cleaning lady, restaurant meals, nannies etc”.
The life of hell for ANY man.
Otherwise, I guess HE is changing the diapers while the wife works all day and HE is cleaning the bathroom toilet. Instead, the woman he married is making him NOT have to do those things.
The horror!
“When a society fails to reproduce, it ceases to exist over time. Duh! Why would anyone (but the leftist fishwraps like NYMag) celebrate that?”
Who said anything about failing to reproduce? Single women and lesbian couples have children all the time. There are sperm banks for that. We don’t need a husband to have a child.
It’s pretty simple biology. As long as we’re the womb, we can do whatever we want.
And having children is absolutely NO guarantee that there will be grandchildren. I know several people in their 70s with children who don’t have any grandchildren. Their children have made other decisions. What are you going to do then helmethofer? Force them to reproduce? Pulease. One has 4 children. Not a single grandchild among them and all are over 30.
“Single women and lesbian couples have children all the time. There are sperm banks for that. ”
Disgusting. Every child has a father and mother who equally contribute to the genes and DNA. A lesbian raising a child who won’t ever know is father is child abuse. We live in a depraved society. Your example about the folks with no grandkids is the exception not the norm.
“One has 4 children. Not a single grandchild among them and all are over 30.”
Failures. How many of them are working dumb middle management jobs etc. or narciscissts beyond belief?
I saw a woman last summer wearing a shirt that said: “I’m Proud of My Gay Son”. Bullshit. I bet she was crushed when her son told her. She lies.
OT
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/400000-year-job-new-zealand-three-months-holiday
saw this and thought of options for US doctors
HH,
Do you want to tell us something?
http://www.livescience.com/19563-homophobia-hidden-homosexuals.html
lovely intersection
http://oururbantimes.com/news/bloody-campaign-trail-il-4th-district-state-rep-race-zwolinski-vs-soto