Get 3 Bedrooms For Under $400,000 in Pilsen: 1621 S. Halsted

1621 s halsted

This 3-bedroom at 1621 S. Halsted in Pilsen came on the market in March 2017.

This building was constructed in 2002 and has 32 units with a parking garage.

This is a south and east facing top floor unit.

The kitchen/living and dining rooms have hardwood floors and the listing says the bedrooms have new carpet.

The third bedroom is open to the other living space and could be used like a den.

The kitchen has light wood cabinets, granite counter tops, including a breakfast bar, and stainless steel appliances.

There is a master suite with a stone double bowl sink in the bathroom.

It has central air, washer/dryer in the unit and garage parking is included.

This unit has only had one owner since it was built.

It has come on the market for $32,000 more than the 2003 purchase.

Has Pilsen lived up to the hype from earlier this century that it would be one of the next hot neighborhoods?

Or is the “hotness” still to come?

Pasquale Recchia at @Properties has the listing. See the pictures here.

Unit #602: 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1600 square feet

  • Sold in May 2003 for $357,000 (included parking)
  • Originally listed in March 2017 for $389,000 (includes parking)
  • Currently still listed for $389,000 (includes parking)
  • Assessments of $470 a month (includes cable, Internet, exterior maintenance, lawn care, scavenger and snow removal)
  • Taxes of $4470
  • Central Air
  • Washer/Dryer in the unit
  • Bedroom #1: 16×13
  • Bedroom #2: 13×10
  • Bedroom #3: 13×10

158 Responses to “Get 3 Bedrooms For Under $400,000 in Pilsen: 1621 S. Halsted”

  1. Someone who thought it would be a good investment in an up and coming neighborhood but will be lucky to break even 14 years later? You hear about the potential of Pilsen but this doesn’t show anything to support that.

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  2. The area has great potential but just seemed to sputter out with business development. The restaurant Nightwood served as a good anchor and did well, but it closed last year. Just seemed like no other businesses were able to really get off the ground.

    I think the bubble bursting put a damper on things. However, I do think the area will continue to remain popular for starving artists/hipsters and the like who have been forced out of Wicker Park/Bucktown.

    Maybe with all the businesses coming to downtown, Pilsen may finally live up to its potential.

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  3. This neighborhood is not going to take off.

    Places like duseks and nightwood attracted the crowds for a while – but as mentioned above, the scene kind of puttered out.

    What I think happened is that Pilsen attracted the “real” hipsters and starving artists – people that don’t have the money or interest in gentrification. They want cheap rent and space.

    The “hipsters” with money – I.e, the rich kids from Naperville who work at Groupon and have stupid mustaches / wear 300 dollar jeans far prefer Logan square, wicker park, and maybe even humboldt park. Pilsen is still far too gritty for these people. And to be completely honest, as an aging fake “hipster”, I far prefer to hang out in bucktown or wicker. Feels safer and less disconnected from the rest of the city.

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  4. Granted, I haven’t been to Pilsen in a few years (like Riz says I prefer other areas) because I too have always felt that the area would never truly gentrify because it’s too cut off and disconnected. It contains some gritty industrial areas that the north side neighborhoods lack and it’s too close to bad 3rd worldish areas like Little Village and Lawndale; and the next closest decent areas like Bridgeport and McKinley Park are literally a world away, on the other side of a major interstate and a river. I can walk seamless up Milwaukee ave between wicker park, bucktown and logan, and the next area is avondale and then you’re on the nearly murder free northwest side. A 10 minute drive in the wrong direction in Pilsen puts you in a war zone. A buddy of mine just moved from these hip neighborhoods to somewhere north of andersenville; and while that’s a bit of the boonies, it’s not too bad of an area and it has all the amenities needed to live and raise a family. Not so much for Pilsen.

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  5. East Pilsen’s lack of transit is it’s Achilles heel. Theres a Metra stop but that’s not enough. Add in the moronic anti-white people moving alderman and you have the craphole that is East Pilsen.

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  6. I live in University Village, so it’s just a couple of blocks from here. The alderman and the entitled poor of Pilsen are ruining the neighborhood. A block down from this building sit two empty lots. The alderman refuses to allow anything be built there unless there are ample set asides for low income people. The last thing this neighborhood needs is more low income people who bring in more violence. That same alderman, Solis, used to be the alderman for University Village. We could never get him out. I think we may have had a small chance if not for the redistricting. We now have an alderman from Bridgeport who was bestowed upon us so that Solis could keep Pilsen. The only hope that Pilsen has is that Solis either gets too sick to work or gets arrested and thrown in prison for corruption (although, the idiots from Pilsen would probably still re-elect him even if he was in a prison cell).

    That being said, I’m shocked at some of the prices that homes have sold for just south of 16th. Developers have been building 3 unit condo buildings because Solis can’t force smaller developers from building and selling to middle class people. Checking the recently sold pages, I have seen single units in those buildings go for $500k+.

    I wouldn’t want to live in Pilsen or Wicker Park, but I would choose Pilsen over Wicker Park. I met up with friends a few weeks ago on a nice evening and we walked in Wicker Park (as in the city park) and it was absolutely filled with various scumbags – the children who called me a “ho,” the bums who were all smoking pot, the gang member types who were playing basketball, the criminals who broke into my friend’s car and stole his radio… no thank you.

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  7. why did they call you a ho?

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  8. Yes, East Pilsen is just a few blocks south of University Village and has the EXACT same transportation situation.

    Current Listing: https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1402-S-Emerald-Ave-60607/home/17301339

    Check out the lofts at 1600 S Jefferson (south of the tracks)… a recent loft conversion/new construction development with most units selling just last year for WELL OVER $300 SF!

    Meanwhile, the restaurant that replaced Nightwood, Pleasant House Bakery appears to be doing quite well, Dusek’s and Thalia Hall appear to be thriving, Eatery is waiting with baited breath on new restaurants under construction on 18th and raving about others recently opened in the heart of Pilsen… the biggest problem I hear is that rents are being driven up and displacing business…

    Pilsen is still a short bicycle ride to the lake and a very short commute to downtown.

    The northern whites warning about the ‘edge’ neighborhoods reminds me of what was said about the South Loop just a few years ago…

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  9. Jenny, I’m going to have to break from you here.

    I think the prices / growth in University Village have been pretty stagnant..Multiple townhouses ( newer construction, 2000 square feet ) have recently sold around 16th and halsted ( by that park, whatever it’s called) for around/under 500k. It’s had much slower growth and price appreciation than the rest of the city. Who else really lives in university village other than kids that go to college / grad school at UIC?

    Live in Pilsen over Wicker park? are you crazy? Yeah, there are typically a lot of kids hanging around milwaukee avenue on the weekends – but there are also multimillion dollar homes and condos everywhere, highly rated restaurants, bars, and retail. You get none of that in university village….and Pilsen , again, are you crazy? Yeah, maybe some high kids might be walking around wicker park, but they aren’t going to shoot you like they would around pilsen. ‘gang member types’ playing basketball – uh, you mean black kids I take it.

    The fact that you said you’d rather live in pilsen makes me wonder if you’ve ever even been there – it’s an absolute craphole. Pilsen reminds me of Calcutta. But hey, if you want the latin kings on your corner as opposed to a Nike store and jeni’s ice cream, that’s your perogative.

    laughable statement.

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  10. “The northern whites warning about the ‘edge’ neighborhoods reminds me of what was said about the South Loop just a few years ago…”

    By few years do you mean the early 90’s? lol.

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  11. “Pilsen is still a short bicycle ride to the lake and a very short commute to downtown.”

    Do you mean down 18th street, past that gas station and under the highway? that’s not a short, or pleasant ride my friend.

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  12. PS- that 1.5 million dollar house you linked to has been on the market for a month. No way they get ask.

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  13. Yeah, what about the over $300 SF sales at 1600 Jefferson (the one that sold out overnight and the same one you erroneously reference)?

    and Riz, all of your fear based comments, including the 90’s reference, just make my point… Thanks!

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  14. OH NO! sitting a Whole Month!… there goes the neighborhood!

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  15. Regarding Nightwood, it closed because the chef left to spend time with his family, certainly not because of lack of business or the neighborhood. BTW, if you haven’t yet, go to his new restaurant Giant in Logan Square. It’s awesome.

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  16. Great responses “arch”.

    I didn’t bother to look up 1600 Jefferson because 300 psf doesn’t impress me. Compared to wicker or south loop or even Logan that’s low. That’s what, a 2/2 for 350 or something? Not very expensive in the current market. Cheap, actually. That’s why it sold.

    My point is that 4K sq foot sfh next to the highway in university village isn’t going to sell. It’s overpriced.

    And yes – the 90’s were 25 years ago dude. I was 5 in 1990. So yeah, maybe Pilsen will be drastically different in 25 years – but it’s nothing compared to what’s happened to Logan just over the past 5 years.

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  17. Marco – agreed. Giant is incredible.

    Is Sabrina reading this? I went to mi tocaya in Logan recently, it was admittedly pretty darn good.

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  18. ‘riz’, if by “that’s not a short, or pleasant ride my friend” you mean 9 minutes on bike lanes, past art galleries, the river, Ping Tom Park, the South Loop, the Prairie District to a much less populated lake front, then I guess that is unpleasant…

    the point being, to achieve that on the north side is impossible, even if the prices weren’t at least double with the same proximity to downtown and the lake

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  19. Arch,

    I meant driving under that gross congested highway underpass where there is a ton of traffic, then past the gas station where the dude sells crack ( for real ), then past the cusp of chinatown and maybe past a tiny sliver of the prairie district. I lived on 18th and state a while ago man, I know the neighborhood. Stop trying to make it sound awesome, it’s not.

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  20. well, young man, if you purchased in the South Loop in the 90’s, like I did, you made a fortune… but you did so over the fear-based ridicule of people like you…

    my East Pilsen (architect-designed :-) ) home was purchased in 2004 for $430k, @300 SF, it is now worth $740K…

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  21. I’ve walked down 16th street plenty of times. Once you get south of 18th or west of Morgan, it gets dicey, but I’d rather live at 16th and Halsted than anywhere near Wicker Park (as in the city park). Who are all of those people hanging out in that park? Do they walk miles outside of Wicker Park to get there? That park would be so pretty if they could get the vagrants out of it.

    The homes in University Village are stagnant. You are right. Like anything built in the mid-2000s, they have lost their luster. The new townhouses they are building start in the mid $600s. I’d be curious to know if they are getting that price for them.

    I can get to the trendy west loop restaurants in 5-10 minutes from my area and get to work in River North in 15 minutes. I can walk to the restaurants in Little Italy. I don’t really use public transportation and don’t want to use it. Uber or Lyft can get me to any of these restaurants for less than $10 if I feel like drinking and don’t want to drive.

    University Village isn’t perfect, but at least the creepers don’t dawdle in the park. I can walk my dogs without being called names and none of my friends has ever had a car broken into.

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  22. ‘riz’, I just laid out the facts of the 9 minute bike ride… sounds like you should be living in Wicker Park (no drug dealers there?), or better yet, Winnetka…

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  23. “‘gang member types’ playing basketball – uh, you mean black kids I take it. ”

    pfft says the guy who calls anyone black, “sketchy people”

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  24. “Giant in Logan Square. It’s awesome.”

    overrated as hell!

    I went last year and had the waiter bring me ‘whatever is the best’ and while it was “above average” it wasn’t worth the price that’s for sure and wasn’t anything special!

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  25. Sonies,

    I don’t call them sketchy bc they are black. I call them sketchy bc they fall asleep in the Bank of America ATM booth and pee on the Dunkin’ Donuts steps and grow garbage all over the street. Not to get off topic.

    Okay Arch, enjoy your 700k mansion in east Pilsen. Just don’t count on anyone buying it at that price or moving in next door.

    You didn’t lay out the bike ride, you exaggerated it and made it sound like a nice ride past the river and art galleries when it’s actually a very gross path to take past a bunch of highway congestion and a crappy south branch of the river.

    I think wicker park is great and id live there if it wasn’t so congested. I’ve recently moved northwest in the city and really like it. I don’t think they like brown people in winnetka so I’ll stay in the city, thanks.

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  26. Sonies,

    I thought giant was awesome – maybe you caught them on a bad night. I also highly recommend roister if you haven’t been.

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  27. This Pilsen home just sold for $733k: http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1625-S-Newberry-Ave_Chicago_IL_60608_M73211-73671

    This condo for $503k: http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1633-S-Miller-St-1_Chicago_IL_60608_M89518-76011

    Condo sold for $600k : http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1627-S-Miller-St_Chicago_IL_60608_M87058-58701

    House for $730k: http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/921-W-Cullerton-St_Chicago_IL_60608_M81302-82857

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  28. “maybe you caught them on a bad night.”

    maybe, but I was pretty disappointed, will try roister soon

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  29. look ‘sonies’, you call it crappy south branch, I call it where I pick up my kayak (season pass) to paddle downtown or anywhere else… yes, is the congestion and the ‘underpasses’ here not as pretty in Logan or Wicker as you try to make it through your much longer journey to the lakefront? Maybe, but “700k mansion”, it’s already happening, dude… if I wanted the same SF, the same proximity to downtown and the lakefront, the same protected view (oops, not possible this close to downtown on the north side), it would have literally cost me at least 1M more than what I paid for my custom-design…

    I purchased 2B 2B in ’92 in the South Loop for 159K and sold it in ’02 for 350k, I don’t doubt what I already see happening here in Pilsen… sorry it upsets you all so much…

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  30. Pilsen has not taken off as promised up until recently. However, there are signs that it is taking off now. We’re seeing prices rise and investors are bidding up the 2 – 4 flats that hit the market to the point where we aren’t very interested in what’s there. We’re seeing new construction and rehabs also.

    But Jenny is right about those empty lots. WTF is wrong with that Alderman? He thinks those empty lots are an asset?

    The subject of prices in University Village came up and coincidentally I just posted an update on the price trends there. Still not back to the bubble for the condos: http://www.chicagonow.com/getting-real/2017/04/whatever-happened-to-chicagos-university-village-condo-townhome-prices/

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  31. Oh, and Jenny, they are selling those new townhomes in University Village. I see them go under contract slowly but regularly.

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  32. Arch,

    Nobody wants to see Pilsen fail. I want to see all parts of this city that struggle become nicer, safer, and more aesthetically pleasing. My point is just that it’s lagging far behind other areas that were similar / crappier and have blown up in the past 5 years.

    For someone like me, when I was looking for a SFH, Pilsen didn’t really fall into consideration because gentrification is so far behind there. a lot of 18th street is still pretty dirty, there’s not much going on. Latin king gang activity is dangerously close.

    Logan was an area that I thought was too sketchy 5-10 years ago but I seriously considered it. ( still didn’t buy there).

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  33. Gary, thanks for the UV info.

    I personally could never move into a development like UV… too cookie cutter and sterile, but to each his own.

    Your data makes the 300+ SF sales at 1600 S Jefferson early last year look even more impressive…

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  34. hd posted “…I too have always felt that the area would never truly gentrify because it’s too cut off and disconnected. It contains some gritty industrial areas that the north side neighborhoods lack and it’s too close to bad 3rd worldish areas”
    Sounds more like hd’s describing characteristics of south W. Town & south Ukranian village (around Grand & east or west of Western) – areas factually far from xways w/little access to public trans while also featuring lots of gritty industrial. Imo smart money has already concluded Pilsen is as close to downtown as you can find for price (& a much safer neighborhood than say Cermak & State). Pilsen’s already happening and the best indicator of it’s future is by looking at who’s purchasing/renting in W Pilsen (Wood – Western) – close to rapid trans stations I’ll bet hd doesn’t know exists. Imo it’s 30-35 yr olds (+/-) tech types working downtown & priced out of Wicker Pk, Uk. Village, West Town… Maybe they’ll move to Andersonville and beyond when schools becomes issues but imo they’ll rent or sell to people who are very similar to themselves when they moved in.

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  35. “I don’t think they like brown people in winnetka so I’ll stay in the city, thanks.”

    Winnetka is a tiny exclusively rich town of 12,000 people it’s actually one of the richest suburbs in the united states. You don’t want to live in Winetta not because of your race but rather because you can’t afford it. Face it, being a physician doesn’t pay what it used to and now that your chances of owning your own practice have disappeared, your W2 salary isn’t going to buy you a house in Winnetka. But I hear that Glencoe east of Green Bay Road has lots of physicians….I can’t afford the north shore either, there’s no shame being like the rest of us upper middle class plebes!

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  36. Sorry, I got distracted, I mean Glencoe WEST of Green Bay Road…

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  37. Granted, I haven’t been in Pilsen in a few years but I don’t think it’ll ever have that critical mass of gentrification to really turn the corner for the reasons I laid out above. The city in general is hot right now so there is building everywhere. But really, some areas are hotter and more desirable than others. I’ve been hearing that Bridgeport was the next thing too but it’s still stuck in 1990 from the time I’ve spent there. I still believe there’s too many already developed but not yet gentrified areas on the north and northwest side that’ll grow at a fast pace than Pilsen. That’s not to say Pilsen is dying or will go back to the barrio from which it came, but, lakeview it will not become.

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  38. “Pilsen is as close to downtown as you can find for price (& a much safer neighborhood than say Cermak & State). ”

    no that would be Cabrini

    and its not on the vast industrial wasteland known as the south side

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  39. ” I’ve been hearing that Bridgeport was the next thing too but it’s still stuck in 1990 from the time I’ve spent there.”

    There’s actually a decent amount of new construction happening in Bridgeport now.

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  40. “Face it, being a physician doesn’t pay what it used to and now that your chances of owning your own practice have disappeared, your W2 salary isn’t going to buy you a house in Winnetka”

    Dude, why do you always do this? I don’t try to crap on your success as a lawyer. I do own my practice, I’m one of 8 partners this year. I’m looking at a 30% income increase in 2017. Our group is growing by leaps and bounds – we opened two outpatient centers in the suburbs this year. Why does it bother you ( or anyone ) so much if a physician is well compensated? I work my butt off – I put in 80 hours last week. I’m in a niche specialty and probably 1% or less of docs can do what I do. Don’t you want someone in this position to be highly educated, hard working, and well compensated? I would want the same thing for my lawyer, accountant, architect , whomever.

    You’re right that primary care docs are losing their practices and income – but that’s a terrible thing. It’s going to breed complacency and laziness.

    As for winnetka, you’re wrong. My wife loves it and we looked extensively at homes there. And while I thought it wasn’t worth the hype when compared to what you get in lake forest or highland park, I wasn’t priced out at all. Many of my colleagues live in the north suburbs , including winnetka. Can I afford Beverly Hills? Heck no. Winnetka isn’t really even a stretch.

    Good luck to you HD. Hope your career takes of as well.

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  41. I want all physicians as employees of the federal government; if we ever get our socialized healthcare system like the rest of the world. Those 30% pay increases of yours would be a thing of the past so that the rest of the US could actually afford to visit the doctor. But I digress…

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  42. “There’s actually a decent amount of new construction happening in Bridgeport now.”

    There’s construction everywhere because that’s what builders do – they build. Some of it will turn out well, some of it, not so well. New construction in developed but otherwise fringe areas, absent significant gentrification (like Logan) is a sign of a bubble.

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  43. “I still believe there’s too many already developed but not yet gentrified areas on the north and northwest side that’ll grow at a fast pace than Pilsen.”

    Do people really want to live on the far north side? I grew up in Peterson Park and it was so damn far from everything. It was a nice/affordable place to raise kids, but I can’t imagine living there now despite the inexpensive single family homes.

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  44. Wow^ ‘riz’, TMI

    obviously, your background makes you an expert on Pilsen :-)

    BTW, I grew up in Winnetka and my mother still lives in that home (I know, TMI too)

    With regard to Pilsen, the reason those two lots are still empty is that Solis is worried about his reelection and is reacting to extreme fear throughout the neighborhood that gentrification will force them out…

    https://www.facebook.com/thepilsenalliance/

    The last development deal for those lots was awesome and would have provided more low-income housing then that site will probably ever see when it inevitably gets developed…

    The point being, will it ever be like Lakeview? I hope not!, but there is no better sign of ongoing gentrification then fear of it and the very organized and vocal opposition…

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  45. “I want all physicians as employees of the federal government”

    Great. Just like postal workers and the VA doctors. Yeah, I know…technically postal workers don’t work for the feds. But I digress.

    “New construction in developed but otherwise fringe areas, absent significant gentrification (like Logan) is a sign of a bubble.”

    I think rising inventory levels are a sign of a bubble – about to burst. Bridgeport’s inventory is plummeting. It may not qualify as gentrification but the demographic of the area is changing and there is high demand for the homes there.

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  46. “Great. Just like postal workers and the VA doctors. Yeah, I know…technically postal workers don’t work for the feds. But I digress.”

    As opposed to the craptacular system we have now? Where so many in the system are getting rich and the rest of pay for it with crappy and low quality results?

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  47. HD,

    I’m not totally against socialized healthcare, but I just don’t know how I feel about the government controlling healthcare. I mean , where would you rather get treated ; cook county hospital ( government employee docs ), or northwestern? But I also digress..

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  48. I love all my doctors so I’m pretty happy with the current system, though it needs a few tweaks still.

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  49. I’m not involved in the RE industry as much as I just to be (I kinda just sit around in my PJ’s most days trolling the internet after I got sick of working for da man, sure my income’s plummeted but my happiness has increased and my stress levels have decreased, and I can play dungeons and dragons with my other underemployed friends most days in the back of the comic book store near my house…) but I do know that there are quite few marginally qualified buyers out there right now……I got a phone call on Monday from a broker looking for docs on an old investment that went into foreclosure, and by old I mean 2 years and 10 months ago..he’s waiting until 3 years and 0 days to qualify the buyer for a loan….the property is already under contract….just can’t get approved for another 45 days….I have friends that lost everything in the recession yet today are homeowners. They still have nothing but a 701 credit score and a larger sized tax refund for a down payment…but no savings and child support payments, and their over priced homes…

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  50. HD, all our healthcare systems are a result of too much government meddling going back to wage controls during WWII. Of course, I am sure some would argue too that your profession also is a not so insignificant contributor to the healthcare costs as well.

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  51. Gary, you’re lucky you have health care and not a pre-existing condition…

    Riz, this is off-topic, but you’re argument that all of our care would be like going to Cook County is as weak as your arguments that Pilsen is some crime-infested hell-hole…

    It appears to me that Medicare is working rather well… and, of course, you know you don’t want any of us to start comparing life expectancy, infant mortality, costs, etc.etc with any of the other countries that guarantee health care do you?

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  52. Riz – neither of those actually. Not shitty advocate either. I prefer the NW community system actually. Which is as close as a government system you can get in the US with all the elderly patients on medicare who treat using that system…well, actually some of those south side hospitals like holy cross are government hospitals too where 90%+ are on medicaid or are uninsured entirely….but not trying to change the topic here.

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  53. “Gary, you’re lucky you have health care and not a pre-existing condition…”

    Back when my kids lived at home 3 out of 4 of us had pre-existing conditions that precluded us from getting health insurance outside of a group plan. Fortunately, the current system guarantees coverage for pre-existing conditions and I would not want to see us lose that. And I think the individual mandate is essential but needs much higher penalties to do any good. I think it’s like $700 this year for an individual. That’s useless.

    I worry about Medicare because there are doctors that won’t take it and I suspect that group will grow.

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  54. “I am sure some would argue too that your profession also is a not so insignificant contributor to the healthcare costs as well.”

    It contributes through malpractice, but it’s kind of far down the list actually. malpractice insurer profits are actually really high even in states like Illinois, lots of insurers do business here because its so profitable. In no particular order, other things such as drug costs, CEO and management compensation, physician compensation, medical device costs, underpayment of costs from medicaid, emergency room visits from uninsured patients, and now with the proliferation of high deductible plans, fewer and fewer patients are actually paying their co-pays or deductibles to hospitals and doctors, and that’s another cost that the system has to eat, while the insurers take the premiums but refuse to make payments..

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  55. Gary, I agree with you on raising the penalties if we keep the current system (and that is somewhat of an “if”), but the Medicare argument about doctors not participating would be moot if we eliminated for-profit insurance companies and mandated Medicare for all…

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  56. Gary most doctors will take medicare. It’s medicaid they won’t take. Huge difference. Medicare is for the elderly and the SSDI recipients (after 2 years on SSDI); Medicaid is the joint federally/state funded insurance plan for the poor that pays treaters and providers pennies on the dollars, with 6+ plus wait times…and I’ve heard anecdotally the patients are awful, they don’t show up for appointments on time or at all, don’t call to cancel, are the most likely to sue, and of course, because its all FREE to them, they can’t even be charged something like $25 for not showing up for an appointment..

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  57. You get up on the wrong side of the bed HD? I want my doctor to be well compensated and have a reason to work hard (get paid more $$). Doctor salaries are not the problem w/ healthcare – that is on drug pricing, hospital conglomerates and bureaucracy.

    My issues w/ Pilsen – not very safe, bad schools, few amenities (relative to other ‘hoods). As a parent its just a no-go. I’d take one of the SFHs near the Marshall Field apartments (the one discussed in another thread) over that Pilsen “mansion” any day of the week.

    At my kids’ schools there are people from all over the city – LP / LV / Loop / West Town / etc. But nobody lives in Pilsen. It will lag all the other gentrifying places especially w/ the alderman stalling the process.

    I mean just look at the property we are discussing! 14 years and still barely going to break even if they get asking price! Chicago has so much space – this isn’t NYC. There are still many lots all over the city that can be developed to meet demand in areas far more desirable than Pilsen.

    Someone mentioned the Nightwood guy opening Giant. There’s a reason he chose Logan Square and not Pilsen.

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  58. My parents were on Medicare and there were doctors who would not take them as new patients because of it.

    drug costs: there is a story there but it has something to do with those PBMs. I don’t think we’ve heard the whole story.

    CEO and management compensation: a popular target but what % of the total cost is this really?

    physician compensation: way down

    underpayment of costs from medicaid: and Medicare also. I’ve seen the bills. So what happens to the system when these two are essentially the whole system?

    emergency room visits from uninsured patients: that’s way down, right?

    the insurers take the premiums but refuse to make payments: I’ve been around for a while and have never had a claim go unpaid. My wife needed to work it a few times though.

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  59. I’m actually in a good mood today. I haven’t worked in a few months, I’m DM at my local D&D game tonight.

    Let’s just say that my family paid $14,000 for health care in the last 12 months. Plus the employer paid another $8,000 (at least according to the box checked on the W-9) so that’s $22,000. That’s not including the $6,000 in the HSA but a $10,000 family deductible.

    There’s been two surgeries in my household in the last year. The HSA is now drained to zero and we’re on payment plans with the hospital to pay our out of pockets up to the $10,000. The insurance company (well technically the ERISA self-funded health care plan managed by a major health insurer) paid less than a few thousand dollars. and this plan is best plan provided by a major hospital chain in the chicagoland area!!!!

    I would have been better off just not having any insurance at all, paying the penalty at all, and then negotiating payment on the side with the hospital. It would have been cheaper. I’m not sure how many surgeries or major health events my family would even need to spend the $22,000 in premiums paid if I could just get that discounted adjusted rate. Rand Paul said the same thing once and he’s right, it would be better to not have insurance and just pay for your own treatment because for most people it’s a lot cheaper. somebody is getting rich off my $22,000 and I’m left poorer for it. and I have a ‘good’ health insurance plan!!

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  60. “I’m actually in a good mood today. I haven’t worked in a few months, I’m DM at my local D&D game tonight. ”

    man I wish I lived in Woodstock, I’d swing by after work and start a character!

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  61. “The last development deal for those lots was awesome and would have provided more low-income housing then that site will probably ever see when it inevitably gets developed…”

    I would rather it remain vacant lots than have more low income people move into the neighborhood. Pilsen has enough violence.

    I don’t get the complaint about Pilsen not having enough restaurants when some of the trendiest restaurants in the city are 10 minutes away. How close to you have to be to the trendy restaurants?

    There are lots of neighborhoods that I wouldn’t consider. Pilsen is one. Wicker Park is another. I wouldn’t consider anything north of Armitage, west of Morgan, or south of 18th. Outside of that core, it’s just too far to get to downtown. That leaves me very few neighborhoods where I can get a 2/2 for under $400,000. University might be the only neighborhood in that core, where it’s still possible. Proximity to work, affordability, and grass for the dogs are the only reasons I live there.

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  62. I’m not sure why everyone is ignoring the facts:

    1) ‘Jenny’ the development would have built hundreds of market-rate housing… the subsidized housing is to keep the city running, it’s a persuasive argument…

    2) Every other industrialized country with guaranteed health care has longer living and healthier citizens with significantly lower costs… With a system that is run/dictated by for-profit insurance companies, how can you expect anything different?

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  63. Ah, all you northern dilettantes wallow in ill-informed speculation about Pilsen. Know yet not of the Principality of Podmajersky? Know yet not of the fierce familial battle taking place over giant tracts of land in prime East Pilsen?

    And yea, though the wails of Pilsen artists have long sounded from its eastern regions, the killing, silencing blow will come when the lofts and gardens are bulldozed to make way for the next uber-development on monstrous, block-sized, contiguous parcels primed for building.

    Who shall triumph? Will the Dark Prince John III sail away to Macinaw on an even more opulent pleasure vessel? Or will the women of the clan reign supreme and capture the family treasure? No matter who wins, prepare for the big sell-off!

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  64. HD – we are basically moving to self funding of health care cost via your example. With very high deductible plans (basically all that are offered now) you pay the first $x,000 of costs and insurance pays the rest so it’s pretty much catastrophic insurance now. I like this system – people have to actually think about their health and try to live healthier lives or it will cost them $$. I think we do need more transparency though – the procedure costs / drug costs / etc should be published by each insurer so consumers can make informed decisions.

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  65. I like that in this country, I can get in to see a doctor when I need to see one. I like that there aren’t waiting lists for costly tests.

    My uncle went in to the doctor with back pain. He got an MRI a couple days after that visit. They detected a large mass. They sent him for a more detailed test a day after the MRI. A couple days later, they removed the mass. In many countries, the process would have taken month. I’ll take our costly system over waiting a long period of time.

    I think the single payer model works for the masses of people. Countries with it see longer life spans because people are more likely to get treated for middling conditions (like pneumonia) whereas people here wait. I take care of my health and when I’m sick, I go to the doctor. Socialized medicine fails for the outliers it seems – those with weird deadly conditions. If I am ever unfortunate enough to be an outlier, I want the best care possible and have as many options open to me as exist.

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  66. Jenny, an outlier can easily be someone without a job or unemployed due to an injury/illness…and that could easily be you or anyone of us someday.

    as for the high deductible, it’s the worst of all, because it’s extremely expensive and hardly provides any coverage at all. And yet the medicaid patients pay NOTHING at all. They get basically the same treatment that I get except that they pay nothing, and I have to pay $22,000 a year PLUS a $10,000 deductible.

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  67. Single payer works in smaller homogeneous countries. It also works because those countries also aren’t having to play the world police and also support massive military budgets.

    By definition, insurance is supposed to be for catastrophic care and shouldn’t be covering every little cough and sneeze. This is a large part of what is driving up costs. People have gotten accustom to their insurance paying for everything. In addition, because the consumer is removed from the pricing, there is no incentive to shop around for routine care to find the best costs / value.

    Imagine if your car insurance operated like the healthcare market. You could only buy insurance from companies located in IL. Not only that, your insurance choice was limited to where you worked and if you changed jobs, you’d need new car insurance. You’d expect your insurance policy to cover oil changes, car washes, fluid checks, and tire rotations for $15 co-pay.

    The free market does lower costs. There is a reason elective surgery like boob jobs, lasik, and even fertility treatments are relatively cheap. People typically pay for it out of pocket and thus there is price transparency and it starts to function like a normal market.

    Unfortunately, I think we are too far down the road and we will eventually end up with Medicare for all or some sort of single payer model. The pull of free stuff is too strong.

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  68. I don’t think that any neighborhood that is commuter transportation poor, like Pilsen, will grow anything like the close-in neighborhoods along the blue line and Milwaukee Ave.. Personally, I’d rather live in the Heart of Chicago if I worked downtown. There are three El stops in the Heart of Chicago, none in Pilsen. Also, bike commuting from Pilsen would suck (at this time).

    That lonely Metra stop is not enough to support the growth of Pilsen.

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  69. LOL^ The ‘transportation’ issue is such a red herring… Pilsen proper is served by two pink line stations and two bus routes that lead to downtown… how is the South Loop better served?

    The reason so many think that it is a commuter ‘desert’ is that it is ‘out-of-sight’ ‘out-of-mind’… Pilsen doesn’t have LSD running along side it, but it is no more isolated than the entirety of the South Loop…

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  70. “LOL^ The ‘transportation’ issue is such a red herring… Pilsen proper is served by two pink line stations and two bus routes that lead to downtown… how is the South Loop better served?”

    Arch,

    The south loop Roosevelt stop has a ton more flexibility than the pink line. I’m not even going to mention the bus routes because I never really take the bus so can’t comment.

    I understand that there are some good qualities to pilsen man, but how can you say it’s not more isolated than the south loop? The south loop is literally sitting on top of the lake, the museums, soldier field, grant park, walking distance to a lot of the loop, and a 5 minute train ride to river north.

    I don’t even LIKE the south loop so no favoritism here.

    My problem here is that you’re selling pilsen as something it’s not. Sure, it could have some potential – who knows what can change in the next 10-15 years. Fulton market used to be a super deserted area too. But you’re trying to legitimately compare it to established neighborhoods like the south loop or wicker park…come on man.

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  71. hey ‘riz’, dude, I’m not selling anything… just stating facts

    why don’t you shed your pre-conceived notions and look at a map…

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  72. Regarding doctors refusing Medicare: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/business/retirementspecial/02health.html and I believe it’s gotten worse since this article was written.

    There are probably dozens of variables that explain the differences in our health outcomes and our costs but everyone focuses on insurance company profits when the medical loss ratio is probably running around 80% and profits are even way less that that 20% difference. I think UNH’s net margins are around 7%.

    Don’t get me wrong. I think there is a lot screwed up in the current system. I watched part of the Mylan CEO’s testimony in front of congress and either she was clueless or she was trying not to tell us something about drug distribution costs while still telling us the truth. I’m guessing it’s the latter. It had something to do with the distribution chain.

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  73. @pilsen arch – no, you need to look at a map. West of Ashland is Heart of Chicago, not Pilsen. The El stops of 18th st, Damen , and Western stops are all in the Heart of Chicago. If you call it “West Pilsen”, well, that’s just wrong.

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  74. Gary,

    Medicare patients make up a small percentage of my patient population but it’s true. It’s a huge hassle to get reimbursed for anything – they pay 6 months late at times. If I’m doing a fibroid embolization or pulling clot out of someone’s leg, the reimbursement is basically equal or almost less than my equipment and room cost. Much of the time they look for any reason to deny payment. I understand they are strapped too, and the patients need care, so I continue to accept it, but often at a loss.

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  75. Arch I looked at a map, you’re wrong. You have one pink line stop at 18th. That’s about it. The pink line also sucks. No comparison.

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  76. HA… ‘vb’, NO ONE who actually lives in Pilsen considers one block west of Ashland, Heart of Chicago… NO ONE…

    hahahaha…

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  77. lol you’re really unrelenting man.

    Okay, Pilsen is the best and the neighborhood of the future. I say we just let time tell, like it has for the past 10 years.

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  78. time is now, Dr. ‘riz’… you ridicule the $300 sf as being unworthy and ridiculously cheap, then when I pointed out I’ve already made 300k on my 400k investment in Pilsen based upon that $300 sf figure, you ridiculed my Pilsen ‘mansion’… so, which is it?

    I have only traded facts (btw, you have an awful lot of time on your hands for a surgeon (?) who works over 80 hour weeks… maybe you should spend more time with your patients and less speculating on neighborhoods you obviously know nothing about…

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  79. @pilsen arch – I have friend that lives in Heart of Chicago who would disagree with you. I don’t draw firm line at Ashland. I myself would consider the 18th street El stop and the shops on that block of 18th street to be Pilsen. But that’s as far west as I would go. I consider Pilsen congested and with multi-dwelling apartment buildings. Heart of Chicago is where the buildings get smaller and there are more single-family homes.

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  80. 1). I’m not a surgeon

    2.) you obviously don’t know much about real estate. You made money on a condo you bought in the 90’s – congratulations! So did everyone else that bought anything in the 90’s in Chicago. In literally any neighborhood. Do you want a medal?

    3.) using a new construction random buildings maximum quotes price per square foot for a unit to evaluate your home’s worth is idiotic. That’s like me saying, oh, well trump tower is in river north, and a 1800 square foot 2 bedroom is worth 1.8 mil, so everything else in river north should be 1000 psf. That’s obviously not the case. Your house isn’t worth 700k just because a random 2 bedroom in Pilsen fetched that much, allegedly.

    4.) dude you grew up in WINNETKA – I grew up and went to college and medical school in this city. I’ve lived here for almost my whole life. Please don’t teach me about neighborhoods.

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  81. dr. ‘riz’, I’ve lived in the city for longer then you have been alive…

    not only am I an architect with a Harvard degree, but I also have my managing broker’s license so I can buy and sale the occasional property without having to use another realtor…

    Yes, I made oodles of money in the 90’s, but also the 2000’s… the place in Pilsen was recently appraised so I could obtain the home equity loan I have now…not some dreamy speculation on my part…

    I will teach you about neighborhoods, because you obviously know very little… now get back to working on those 80 hours…

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  82. “Harvard degree”. “Oodles of money”

    Again, congratulations. I think two medals are in order. Perhaps we should make you the new alderman of pilsen.

    Why do we care about your brokers license?

    “Longer than you’ve been alive” – extra medal for being old I think.

    you’re insufferable.

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  83. yeah, kinda ‘sucks’, huh, dr riz?

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  84. I’m not really sure why you keep using quotation marks everywhere, it’s unsettling. Are you trying to be sarcastic or something? It’s not coming across effectively.

    You’d think the Harvard degree would have lended you better grammar skils.

    Anyways, best of luck in Pilsen. I actually hope the neighborhood takes off.

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  85. ha, riz the ‘sucks’ quotes was me quoting you, LOL… I don’t think I would ever be so high-brow in my criticism…

    the ‘riz’ quotes was me mimicking you… ‘arch’…

    the licence reference was due to you insisting I ‘don’t know much about real estate’…

    the degree reference is to show I know something about developing and designing properties as well…

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  86. Soooo what you’re saying is you were being a tool. Got it.

    It didn’t come across that well.

    Also, you spelled license wrong. You may need a refund from Harvard.

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  87. ha, gotta me there, dr. riz…

    nothing like a troll that corrects spelling!

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  88. On that note, any thoughts on how long until this goes under contract? 3 beds for under 400, on the lower west side of the city is pretty cheap.

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  89. of the 7 units in the building listsed currently, there are 6 units in that are under contract (out of 32)… (the building has 2 addresses on the MLS, 1601 and 1621, same property)

    at least 3 of those units have had multiple contracts that fell through…

    I’m under the impression that most of the contracts were at or near asking…

    most of the contracts came within days after listing or within or week or two at the most, but most, if not all, reappear on the MLS…

    make of that what you will…

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  90. oops, correction… I was confusing 1601 with 1610 across the street from this property…

    so there are only 3 units for sale currently in this building (1601-1621), at least 2 have had multiple contracts that fell through, including this unit and a 2b2b, another 1b1b is still pending…

    the sales across the street @1610 have been occurring fairly quickly as well…

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  91. “Heart of Chicago is where the buildings get smaller and there are more single-family homes.”

    A developer recently announced he was going to build a group of townhouses that will list around $400,000 just down the street from those excellent old style Italian restaurants in the Heart of Chicago. Once those get built, I’ll have to cover them. I think it’s great that some developers are moving into that neighborhood. I’ve eaten at many of those restaurants over the years and they are still among the most authentic Italian places in the city.

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  92. Pilsen Arch,

    Pilsen as a real estate market reminds me of the market of minivans among the greater crossover/SUV market. Sure, you get a lot for your money when you buy new but both markets are a bit of niche; and when it comes to used, the resale value is limited, and really, what kind of market is there for a used minivan?

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  93. “Imagine if your car insurance operated like the healthcare market. You could only buy insurance from companies located in IL.”

    I’m sorry to say it Russ, but this argument really shows your age. Only the baby boomers (or those older than that) argue this (as Trump does.) The old “we can’t get insurance to cross state lines argument” is how insurance was run 20 years ago. It has no relevancy to insurance now.

    Ask any CEO of the major insurance companies. Several recently said this (yet again.) Whether or not you can sell “across state lines” is irrelevant. Health insurance now is run through HMOs and PPOs etc. They are run as “contracts” with the insurance company. So when you have to check to see if your doctor is “in the plan” that’s what matters.

    The insurers enter into deals with certain doctors groups. It won’t matter if Aetna is suddenly allowed to sell in Indiana (if it couldn’t before) AND Illinois. Because they keep costs down by having contracts with doctors/hospital groups “in the plan.” That’s where the negotiating is done. It won’t help you to get an insurer who is in Iowa- because that insurer won’t have any doctors groups in the plan in Illinois. And yes, it takes time and effort for the insurers to set these up.

    So the “state lines” are meaningless now. Insurance isn’t run that way anymore.

    If Illinois let you go and get the Iowa Blue Cross and Blue Shield it would be worthless to you because they wouldn’t have anyone in their plan in Illinois.

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  94. “A couple days later, they removed the mass. In many countries, the process would have taken month. I’ll take our costly system over waiting a long period of time.”

    This is the worst lie of all. Please provide actual stories of someone who is detected with a “large mass” at the doctor in Canada, UK or Australia who then waits a “month” to get a follow-up MRI?

    It just doesn’t happen. That doesn’t even happen in Mexico! Lol.

    Our care isn’t actually that good. Open your eyes. Other countries crushing us on healthcare now. Thankfully Obamacare provides for the basic physical and pays for mammograms and prostate exams. At least there is SOME preventative care now. And none of that depends on your deductible.

    Are costs out of control for many, especially those who are on individual plans? Yes.

    But maybe we need to admit that healthcare can’t be “capitalistic”? That you can’t actually make money off people’s lives? Something like 48% of Americans have a pre-existing condition now.

    Medicare and Medicaid are working. Other countries provide good care at a fraction of our cost with single payer.

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  95. “Know yet not of the Principality of Podmajersky? Know yet not of the fierce familial battle taking place over giant tracts of land in prime East Pilsen?”

    Only the older readers of this blog know that the Podmajerksys own most of East Pilsen. Many think this has actually held back the neighborhood.

    But the balcony of this unit overlooks the Kennedy expressway. You can literally see the cars sitting there bumper to bumper. In my opinion, it’s the expressway that has held back this neighborhood. There’s tons of pollution from it. It’s something other neighborhoods don’t have- including the South Loop.

    Just think of the Riverline project with thousands of units. Nothing like this has been proposed for Pilsen.

    Although, I was surprised to see some $800,000 new builds dotted across Pilsen now. Who’s paying $800,000 to live there? That seems like a stretch to me.

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  96. “That leaves me very few neighborhoods where I can get a 2/2 for under $400,000.”

    You can get this in the South Loop, Printers Row, Old Town- to name a few.

    There are smaller 2/2s even in River North. Do you need parking? If not- you have more options.

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  97. “Let’s just say that my family paid $14,000 for health care in the last 12 months.”

    HD: Were you able to deduct this on your taxes? Sounds like you might be paying enough of your income to do so.

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  98. “Do people really want to live on the far north side?”

    I’ve covered these areas many times. People are paying $800,000+ for houses up there so someone, apparently DOES want to live up there.

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  99. “New construction in developed but otherwise fringe areas, absent significant gentrification (like Logan) is a sign of a bubble.”

    Not necessarily.

    Land prices have risen so high, some developers are being forced out of the GreenZone to find cheap enough land to build “affordable” housing. Is this a “bubble” or a change in the city landscape? It’s not like anyone is building in Englewood (at least not yet.) It’s mostly happening in gentrifying areas.

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  100. “In my opinion, it’s the expressway that has held back this neighborhood. There’s tons of pollution from it.”

    Seriously, Sabrina?! in downtown Chicago, you think THIS unit suffers from pollution from an expressway?! get real… much more serious pollution comes from the Metra along the busiest commuter corridor in the city… the 16th street viaduct… fortunately, the wind (like tonight) is blowing northeast 99% of the time… I guess that is why we never see anyone on their balconies on the south side of the University Village lofts just feet north of the Metra/Amtrak/Freight lines…

    BTW, those same winds blow any pollution from the Dan Ryan toward the South Loop, but, again the whole thing is a red herring… why aren’t you alarming all of the neighborhoods adjacent to the Kennedy?

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  101. As HD says, builders gonna build. The amount of cheap tear downs builders can get their hands on has gotten scarce so they’re building on properties they ignored during the last bubble. Lots of empty lots in my area got turned into condominiums because that’s what the builders could get their hands on and still turn a profit. However, I’m starting to see a lot of condominiums in this area come online, so the new stuff has competition with the old stuff.

    Makes me wonder what the builders are going to do when the economics don’t pan out.

    Builders are going into neighborhoods they wouldn’t touch during the last bubble because they’re in search of cheap properties to tear down. Doesn’t mean the neighborhood is necessarily the next hot spot, just that someone’s gambling on urban pioneers who want new in an iffy ‘hood and are dumb enough to pay for it.

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  102. So I guess I’m getting old, but I witnessed first-hand the complete transition, starting in the early 90s, for Wicker Park, and that’s what I’m comparing now to Pilsen.

    All the kids are moving to Pilsen, following all of the artists who mostly have now decamped for less expensive pastures. The hipster/student index has reached a critical mass along stretches of 18th Street, where once there were only bodegas and burrito shacks. It’s not just a one-off business: Collections of various “uppish-scale” stores/restaurants/bars now are an easy walk from one another. Even the Pink Line station on Damen now has its own hipster bar and coffeehouse right nearby.

    I think Pilsen will absolutely flip, or at least massively improve. The neighborhood has active associations who are very sensitive to gentrification (and pollution), which slows down development. I don’t think lack of public transportation in areas will be much of a drain, given development in similar parts of Humboldt Park et al. (Speaking of which, the 606-like Paseo Trail is slated, too.)

    As they say: “¡Compre ahora o sea tasado hacia fuera para siempre!”

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  103. “Medicare and Medicaid are working.”

    They are “working” in so much as they are providing coverage. They are not working with respect to solvency. They are hemorrhaging $$ and are not sustainable.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/social-security-medicare-trust-funds-face-insolvency-over-20-years-trustees-report-1466605893

    We probably need single payer and caps on drug costs. This will stifle innovation but we already have great healthcare (relative to human history) and have made all the “easy” drug / medical discoveries. All the incremental ones have exorbitant costs – like treating diseases that affect 500 ppl worldwide and cost $400k / yr. Of course those 500 ppl will be fcked.

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  104. And they are working because they can shift costs to everyone else in the system that is outside of Medicare and Medicaid and doctors can refuse them. But if they become the entire system God only knows what happens.

    “We probably need single payer” So you would be cool with giving Blue Cross a monopoly then, right?

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  105. ““Let’s just say that my family paid $14,000 for health care in the last 12 months.”

    HD: Were you able to deduct this on your taxes? Sounds like you might be paying enough of your income to do so.

    Healthcare premiums are an above the line deduction it’s not included in AGI, so yes, they are fully deductible, as are most of the HSA contributions.

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  106. “This is the worst lie of all. Please provide actual stories of someone who is detected with a “large mass” at the doctor in Canada, UK or Australia who then waits a “month” to get a follow-up MRI?”

    He may never have gotten the first MRI. The system may have made him wait until all other less expensive options were tried before going with an MRI and then make him wait for the MRI.

    I played around with this system (first thing that came up for me when I searched wait times in Canada): http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/waittimes/

    I’m seeing that the average wait time in Q1 2017 for an MRI in Ontario is 102 days. The government’s target is 28 days. The shortest wait time I see when I look at all hospitals in Ontario is 26 days. Even 26 days is a ridiculous amount of time to wait.

    I’m thankful that my uncle was able to get his imaging done almost immediately. I have also needed MRIs due to migraines and I appreciate that I can get in right away and that if I tell my doctor that I want an MRI, he will write an order for me to get one even if he doesn’t think it’s necessary.

    Sabrina, where are the articles or calculators that show that you can get in for imaging or surgery in countries with socialized medicine as quickly as someone with health insurance can get in here?

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  107. ““We probably need single payer” So you would be cool with giving Blue Cross a monopoly then, right?”

    Didn’t say I’d like it. Just said its probably what we need. And most socialized medicine systems do have secondary coverage options that can be added onto the government option.

    Are there any state / federal government provided experiences that people enjoy? DMV? Dealing w/ the IRS? Applying for a conforming mortgage (they ask for way more docs than a non-conforming)? Although we would be starting with a low bar given the bureaucracy of the health insurers.

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  108. Well, do you want single payer or do you want socialized medicine? Because a Blue Cross monopoly would be single payer. I wish people would stop saying single payer as code for socialized medicine.

    Maybe what we really need is standardized claim filing.

    On a separate note I think it’s safe to say that most of the medical breakthroughs come from the US – probably because it’s so profitable to innovate here. Once that profitability is undermined I wonder how much medical innovation we will produce.

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  109. For those who take public transportation, how close do you need to be? I’ve walked from my place in UV to the financial district in 30 minutes. I see that the closest El station is 0.9 miles from this condo. Too far? The Metra is across the street. That doesn’t count?

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  110. Gary – Single payer = gov’t provided. I’ve never seen anyone, anywhere suggest that everyone be forced to buy insurance from a SINGLE private provider only – that would be the definition of a monopoly. The chances we get single payer that is NOT gov’t entity is zero.

    Regarding medical innovation – I completely agree. But we have already observed most of the 80/20 rule. We’ve spent 20% to get 80% of the benefits (sewer systems, antibiotics, clean drinking water, washing hands, antiseptics, etc). Now we’d need to spend the additional 80% to get the additional 20%. Its just not efficient. It is a bad outcome for those that actually need those treatments (orphan drugs) but would be a great outcome (stop innovation but provide HC to everyone) for all the uninsured / poor. We are at an inflection point. All we did with Obamacare is take a bad system (lots of waste) and apply it to more people. We needed to make a decision on which way we go – some uninsured + advancements vs. all insured but no / slow advancements. Of course we just kicked the can down the road but we need to make a decision at some point.

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  111. Semantically single payer is not equal to socialized medicine so people should stop calling it single payer as a euphemism for socialized medicine. Just call it what it is.

    I agree with some of what you say about the 80/20 rule. However, I think there are still a few big opportunity areas like cancer, autoimmune disorders, arthritis, Alzheimer’s, mood disorders, etc… Not to mention there are plenty of existing drug therapies that have bad side effects and it would be good to improve upon those.

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  112. Gary, I think everyone understands that single-payer is indeed socialized healthcare…. think Medicare for all – that is single-payer which means you pay the government (which, BTW, many studies have shown that the government spends less on bureaucracy administering Medicare than the for-profit insurance companies spend administering their plans).

    Private, for-profit insurance companies would only continue to exist for wealthy and/or healthy people to supplement their government-provided healthcare. Most of the private insurers would most likely go out of business (talk about an obstacle, ha)…

    As far as research is concerned, most of the significant breakthroughs in recent history have begun with funding by the government… which only makes sense. The drug companies/insurance providers do not have much interest in funding research that does not have an obvious short-term gain for stockholders…

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  113. “As far as research is concerned, most of the significant breakthroughs in recent history have begun with funding by the government… which only makes sense. The drug companies/insurance providers do not have much interest in funding research that does not have an obvious short-term gain for stockholders”

    Not really.

    For things like vaccinations, standardizing stroke protocols, etc, yes, the government has done a good job at implementing changes, but still at a much slower pace than private institutions.

    I can’t speak to the times when you were younger, but If you’re talking about ‘breakthroughs’ in current medicine over the past 20 years ,
    These are being doing at places like Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Brigham, etc. They are private institutions ( that do receive some funding from the NIH and government, admittedly ). However, newer medical devices, procedures, and breakthroughs are a huge money maker for drug and device companies, and private companies are almost entirely pushing that industry.

    One example is melanoma – all the latest drugs and research in curing a recently pretty grave diagnosis is from the private industry. In my practice, interventional oncology procedures ( burning lung tumors, liver tumors with radiofrequency, etc ), are all entirely done with devices and research from the private sector…the question is WHY – and someone answered it above.

    Drug and device companies innovate to make money. The government doesn’t. It’s rarely a short term gain. Going from an idea to implementation of a drug or device can typically take a decade.

    Yes, socialized medicine may have some benefits –

    but please keep in mind half the procedures i do on cancer patients to extend life ( not cure, but give them more time ), or on women with painful fibroids, or on patients with limbs about to be amputated, arent even AVAILABLE in these countries. Socialized medicine isn’t going to shell out 100k in treatments and drugs to extend a 80 year olds life by a few months. We routinely do that in the US. Wether that is good or bad is an entirely different topic – but please consider we provide a lot more options, a lot faster service, and typically treat much sicker people in this country.

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  114. “I think everyone understands that single-payer is indeed socialized healthcare”

    Then why do we have a new term for it? I think there is a conspiracy to sugar coat what it is (only half facetious).

    Regarding Riz’ great response above…today’s $100K procedure to extend life will probably evolve into a $10k life saving procedure in 20 years.

    The fact of the matter is that all the useless crap we buy as a society has much less value to us than healthcare so it’s inevitable that we will spend a higher and higher % of our GDP on healthcare.

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  115. Ugh! Lack of precision in terms is annoying:

    Universal Coverage = everyone is ABLE to (and required to) have insurance – this is what Obamacare is.

    Single Payer = the government provides your insurance coverage (ie pays all claims) – this is what Medicare/Medicaid is. This is the current system in Canada and Australia – Medicare for all

    Socialized Medicine = the government owns hospitals, clinics, and employees Doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals. There are no “claims” to be paid. This is the current system in the UK

    In single payer and even in socialized medicine countries IT IT STILL POSSIBLE TO BUY PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE. Most large employers in Canada, UK, and Australia offer medical insurance to their employees. (It covers things like a private room if you’re hospitalized, or the ability to go to a specific emergency room if you’re injured, etc.)

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  116. ugh! typos are annoying

    “employs doctors, etc” not “employees doctors, etc.”

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  117. @Jenny – if the closest El station, 0.9 miles from this condo, is Chinatown that’s not going to be a pleasant walk. The highway underpasses are not very scenic.

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  118. Canada (don’t know about Mexico) has a “safety valve” for patients who don’t want to wait for surgery, etc. It’s called “crossing the border” to American hospitals in New England or the Midwest that have an “agreement” to treat the patients from Canada under some kind of joint-payment plan.

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  119. “Socialized medicine isn’t going to shell out 100k in treatments and drugs to extend a 80 year olds life by a few months.”

    That’s what I call rational.

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  120. Tone,

    I agree with you – just giving an example of something that costs a tremendous amount of money in this country today. Multiply that by thousands of people, thousands of times a week.

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  121. Riz, that’s a terrible waste of resources. I hope Medicare contributes nothing to that.

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  122. Actually it does. I was there for the death of both of my parents. The decision as to how to spend your money was totally in my hands. I could have kept my parents technically alive for days with you paying for it but it made no sense – either morally or financially. However, I have heard of other people making very different decisions. And, BTW, those physician directives aren’t worth much. Nobody looked at them. They asked the people in the room what to do.

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  123. Tone,

    With Medicare patients, A big conflict these days is withdrawl of care. I.E, sick parent in the ICU, in a coma or unconscious, in some cases brain death or borderlie brain death. If the child or spouse insists on keeping them ‘alive’ as long as possible – it literally costs 4-5k a day in some ICU’s to keep a patient bed going. This does not happen in countries with socialized medicine, but is a huge problem in the states.

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  124. “This does not happen in countries with socialized medicine, but is a huge problem in the states.”

    Bring on the death panels for the boomers!

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  125. Wow, that is atrocious. I could see allowing a short window to allow some family to gather but come on. A grotesque waste of money. If you want to keep the body “alive” have at it. ON YOUR OWN DIME.

    Socialized medicine is sounds better and better.

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  126. Sorry, single payer!

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  127. “Bring on the death panels for the boomers!”

    We’ve had these for thousands of years, HD. When we used to die at home, it was always the family and patient that decided on death. And there was nothing wrong with that. It’s the cycle of life.

    Why have we taken away what is natural and attached it to machines?

    It’s so dumb. And yes, costly.

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  128. “Canada (don’t know about Mexico) has a “safety valve” for patients who don’t want to wait for surgery, etc.”

    Gayle, those “crossing the border” (and I still ask that someone please provide either documented examples or actual statistics on what these numbers are) are those who are in non-life threatening waiting lists.

    Do you need to rush out and have that knee or hip replaced next week? Most of the time, the answer is “no.” Everyone I know who has had those surgeries has literally debated it for months (sometimes years) here in the States. So being on a waiting list in some other country isn’t weird.

    The daily care, by the way, is much better in many other countries than the US. Need to see a doctor right away because you have the flu or some other “common” ailment. Friends in London said they go to the local clinic and are seen within 2 hours by the primary doctor. No charge to them.

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  129. “We needed to make a decision on which way we go – some uninsured + advancements vs. all insured but no / slow advancements.”

    Insurance and health care innovation are two completely different animals.

    One has little to do with the other EXCEPT that with more people ON insurance, there are more opportunities for companies to sell their products and get it covered. And that’s a huge incentive for the companies, who, as Riz has stated, operate purely on a corporate profit motive.

    The LA Times recently had an article about a successful hand transplant at UCLA. Why aren’t we doing more of them? It cost about a million dollars. A prosthetic is much, much cheaper. So insurance will cover the prosthetic but NOT the hand transplant (you have to pay for that out of pocket, apparently.)

    And no one is talking about socializing the drug companies. They aren’t socialized in the UK either.

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  130. “On a separate note I think it’s safe to say that most of the medical breakthroughs come from the US – probably because it’s so profitable to innovate here.”

    Really? Are you SURE that all those “breakthroughs” are American only?

    Many UK, Australian and Canadian drug companies are public companies and listed on their stock exchanges (and sometimes on the NYSE as well.) Same profit motive for them.

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  131. “I’m seeing that the average wait time in Q1 2017 for an MRI in Ontario is 102 days. The government’s target is 28 days. The shortest wait time I see when I look at all hospitals in Ontario is 26 days. Even 26 days is a ridiculous amount of time to wait.”

    Again, if the doctors think you’re going to DIE, they give you the MRI in Canada. Don’t be absurd. Give me a break.

    You know why there are “wait times” for the MRI (and, actually, there are wait times in, gasp, the US too) because someone has a bad back, knee pain, their shoulder is bad etc. etc. THOSE people have to wait because there is heavy demand.

    My cousin was in a car accident. He got bad whiplash from the crash but otherwise nothing wrong. They did a CAT scan at the hospital and it was normal.

    But he still had pain and tingling several weeks later. His doctor concluded they would do an MRI (much more detail than the CAT scan.) Did he rush out and get it done here in the western suburbs of Chicago? No! There was a waitlist because he wasn’t critical. Had to wait 2 weeks to get in there.

    So, again, give me a break. Everyone acts like people with serious illnesses are dropping like flies in Canada or the UK. They are NOT. And they get much more preventative care than Americans do which prevents them from getting the serious illness at all.

    Wake up and look around. Many other countries have better healthcare than America.

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  132. “I have also needed MRIs due to migraines and I appreciate that I can get in right away and that if I tell my doctor that I want an MRI, he will write an order for me to get one even if he doesn’t think it’s necessary.”

    By the way- isn’t THIS part of the problem?

    Do you even know what an MRI of the head costs?

    Oh my god. I’m surprised an insurance company would even agree to pay for that just because you want one. It’s thousands of dollars. It could cost up to $10,000 if you have the dye and depending on how long the scan is.

    This is why healthcare costs are out of control. Just because the doctor CAN prescribe a test doesn’t mean they should.

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  133. “Seriously, Sabrina?! in downtown Chicago, you think THIS unit suffers from pollution from an expressway?!”

    Pilsen arch: you apparently don’t live there. My best friend lived on 18th street for several years in one of the cool podmajersky lofts. Couldn’t open the windows after a few months because everything in the apartment would be coated with soot. It was gross.

    It’s SO dangerous living that close to, literally, like 300,000 to 400,000 cars/trucks a day. I’m glad she moved because it just shoots carcinogens into the air.

    And, actually, the same can be said of Lake Shore Drive. It’s not noise you have to worry about living this close to those roads, it’s actually pollution that can kill you.

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  134. “Many UK, Australian and Canadian drug companies are public companies and listed on their stock exchanges (and sometimes on the NYSE as well.) Same profit motive for them.”

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/gracemarieturner/2012/05/23/though-the-u-s-is-healthcares-world-leader-its-innovative-culture-is-threatened/#109c420777eb

    Just look at the stats in that article. And one of the big advantages other countries have in keeping their healthcare costs down is their lower drug prices – i.e. the US market is more profitable for the drug companies. This is where they make their profits and our high prices is what encourages the R&D. Basically we subsidize R&D for the rest of the world.

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  135. “Single payer works in smaller homogeneous countries.”

    Correct. Diversity is a weakness in a country. The people don’t trust each other and social cohesion dissolves. Socialism doesn’t work in multi-ethnic countries. It only works well in nationalist ones, where the people trust each other and share common blood and goals. Ever heard of National Socialism? It worked before it was stopped by the idiot Churchill who left his people without a empire and Londonistan.

    “If I’m doing a fibroid embolization or pulling clot out of someone’s leg”

    LOL, that’s code for a doc who really excises 14 external thrombosed hemorrhoids a day.

    “those excellent old style Italian restaurants in the Heart of Chicago”

    They’re not that good. What’s excellent is the decor and (what can be termed as) the memorabilia on the walls, the old Italy posters and photos from the 1970s etc. That’s actually cool esp. when contrasted with the sterility and idiocy of the bland decor at RPM.

    ““Bring on the death panels for the boomers!”

    Yes, that is what Ezekiel Emmanuel has said. Once the US taxpayer and US Gvt. starts paying for everyone’s health care and pre-existing conditions…..Do the Math. There isn’t enough money to pay for every south and westsiders’ diabetes. Every smoker’s stage 4 cancer. Where is this money supposed to come from? So, Ezekiel and Rahm won’t have to worry, he’s got his Mossad pension and secret kosher nostra network. He’s telling the goyim, that there may not be funding for you over 75. Logan’s Run for the goyim.

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  136. “The daily care, by the way, is much better in many other countries than the US. Need to see a doctor right away because you have the flu or some other “common” ailment. Friends in London said they go to the local clinic and are seen within 2 hours by the primary doctor. No charge to them.”

    You can get that here too. I had pneumonia where the only symptom I felt was extreme back pain. It was a Sunday night. I went over to a clinic owned by Northwestern Memorial. I was seen right away, received xrays right away, and was diagnosed within 2 hours. The longest wait was for the xrays to be read. I was seen by an MD and I actually made his night because he was bored and hadn’t seen a case of pneumonia that presented like mine before.

    It’s not my problem if others don’t want to shell out the money to pay to get seen by a physician (insurance covered my visit in the same manner it would have covered seeing a physician in a more typical office setting). I expect to receive that type of service and pay my portion of it. If others don’t want to, then it’s up to them to make that decision, but they shouldn’t expect others to foot the bill when they let it go for so long that they end up in the emergency room.

    I’ve paid into this system for years. There has only been one year where my health insurance consumption cost more than the cost of the health insurance plan. Yes. I know how much MRIs cost. The cost at Northwestern with my pre-negotiated health insurance plan is about $1500 without contrast and $3500 with contrast. At Northwestern they will tell you up front how much the MRI is going to cost both you and your insurance. You have to pay your copay or negotiate a payment plan before they will let you get a scan. I pay 10% of that cost. I also have a $500 deductible and between my portion and my employer’s portion, my plan costs $8500 a year. I don’t think it’s such a stretch to expect to get an MRI biennially if I feel that I want to check whether the flare in my brain have changed biennially.

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  137. “where the people trust each other and share common blood and goals.”

    So the Scot trusts the Englishman now?

    Huh.

    Go figure.

    I guess that’s why they still have their own flag, parliament, and royal palaces. And I guess that single payer system doesn’t work too well for them.

    Also better check with those Canadians. Is that why those living in Quebec learn English AND French in their schools? Because they are bound by “blood”? What blood?

    And what about Australia? I’m not sure what the common “blood” is between the Thai, Chinese and Japanese who live there versus the British criminals that were originally sent there in the early days.

    Oh- and remember, HH does NOT live in Chicago. If he did he would know all about the restaurants in the Heart of Chicago. He doesn’t even know where that is.

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  138. Ime all the old-school Italian restaurants near 24th & Oakley deliver great food at very reasonable prices but my fave is Bacchanalia @ 2413 S Oakley (honorable mentions too for Il Vincinato, Bruna’s & Ignotz)!

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  139. Enough Sabrina. I’ve been to the Pasta Vino fest. I bet you didn’t know that nuns from the order of St. Mother Teresa live just around the corner. Il vincinato is actually on Western Ave. Alot of people from 26th and California eat over there for lunch. Whatever. I’ve lived in Chicago longer than Sabrina has. Those restaurants are OK, for good throwback food, like a salad with harsh red wine vinegar etc. The decor is awesome and hipsters should go for that.

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  140. “So the Scot trusts the Englishman now?”

    No. They aren’t the same. You prove my point. Catalonia wants to break away too. Israel shuns diversity has a southern border wall to curb the influx and then deport desperate black migrants — even those with children! (I’m sure even JZ would object to some of his clients being active supporters of that, but maybe not, if he gets paid money from them.) There are plenty of examples of people who hate being forced into mandatory diversity.

    Socialism only works in homogenous cultures. It didn’t end well in Yugoslavia, that’s for sure. You’d think liberals would study history, but they never put in the effort.

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  141. helmet:

    Let me set you straight on just one point that you clearly don’t understand: Israel has vast diversity. Among its Jewish inhabitants, they come from Africa, throughout the middle east, Europe, Russia and share some heritage, but also vast differences. There is a significant population of Ethiopian Jews that immigrated a generation ago and are fully assimilated (represented in government, industry, etc.). There are Iraqi jews, Yemenite, Morrocan, etc. Also, there are diverse communities including Bedouin, Druze, Christian and yes, Arab Israelis (with citizenship). The Border fence/wall is to keep out Palestinian terrorists that have shown a great desire to murder innocent civilians (and FYI, it’s not along any southern border, but along stretches of the West Bank where Israelis cities are within a mile or two & can easily be hit by ground launched rockets/missiles.

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  142. Sabrina, I totally agree with you on the off-topic health care, but as far as pollution from the Dan Ryan, you don’t know what you’re talking about despite you’re scientific analysis of your friend’s Pod apartment.

    I have lived south of 16th and east of Halsted for about 14 years. Any soot in the neighborhood comes from the Metra line @16th Street when the wind is blowing south… which, thank God is rare… it usually is blowing in toward the northeast in our nabe…

    As far as no one wanting to live in the isolated, never-gentrifying, Pilsen, check out this article from today:

    https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170424/pilsen/developer-floats-new-pilsen-parkworks-development-on-giant-8-acre-site

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  143. I agree with pilsen arch. The pollution from those trains is intense at times.

    I have a friend who lives on a low floor in a condo facing Lake Shore Drive. He originally thought that the soot on his windows was from car exhaust, but then learned that it’s particles from car tires. I think we’re all doomed.

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  144. I hope that new development doesn’t get built. Pilsen doesn’t need more low income housing. We have enough crime in University Village already with people coming into our neighborhood from the various low income housing in the surrounding area. WHy can’t the low income people move to the Brooks Homes or the Barbara Jean Wright Courts? Why add even more of it?

    I wish there was a way to band people together to buy the property and turn it into a park with a portion set aside for dogs. Of course, the idiots in pilsen would probably protest that too.

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  145. “car tire particles”

    Yes, I’ve smelled them when I’ve walked my dog on elevated tracks near Chicago Ave. They really stink on hot days.

    “Let me set you straight”

    You cannot set me straight because I’m not wrong, you are. The Israel-Egypt border fence on the Sinai was constructed to keep out black African migrants. If they managed to elude the border, they are detain in camps and then deported, as swiftly as possible. Israel does not want, nor does it accept, any African migrants or Syrian refugees no matter how desperate they are, even if they have little children they are rejected and deported back to their dangerous homelands.

    Israel accepts Jews for the worldwide diaspora, agreed. But that is “diversity” because they are accepted only if they are Jews. How is that diverse? You only get in if you’re part of the diaspora and that’s a racial issue from matrilineal blood. A Jew from Russia or Australia or Yemen can get immediate citizenship over Pals who have multiple generations of living in the land. They are excluded and not allowed to migrate.

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  146. ““If I’m doing a fibroid embolization or pulling clot out of someone’s leg”
    ” LOL, that’s code for a doc who really excises 14 external thrombosed hemorrhoids a day.”

    Helmet, I knew you weren’t very bright…but are you confusing a uterine fibroid with an external hemorrhoid? Or a leg clot? Pretty different pathology.

    Also, surgeons excise hemorrhoids, not interventional radiologists. I can’t get catheter guided access to a hemorrhoid. Not easily anyways. If this is a problem for you, I recommend sitz baths and not being so full of s*it all the time – you would get less hemorrhoids. Duh.

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  147. Maybe once a year someone on Cribchatter posts something that gets me to laugh out loud. I’m good for another year now.

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  148. “any African migrants or Syrian refugees”

    What are you talking about? They’ve accepted Ethiopian Jews as well as many other Jews from Africa (all of whom have, gasp, dark skin) since the beginning of modern Israel.

    There’s a reason they accept any Jews but maybe you should read up on your history.

    Are you working in the foreign policy now HH? To add to your fake living in Chicago? What’s next? Are you a MLB player too? Lol.

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  149. “Socialism only works in homogenous cultures.”

    Where is there socialism in a “homogenous” culture? It doesn’t exist.

    There are Chinese immigrants living in Venezuela. Cuba is as diverse as diverse can be. It’s the United Nations. So what is “homogenous”?

    It only exists in HH mind.

    Japan is pretty homogenous but it’s not socialist.

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  150. “I’ve lived in Chicago longer than Sabrina has.”

    Again, HH doesn’t live here. Everything he says about Chicago is vague and has nothing to do with what is going on in the city today. All of it can be ascertained from Google.

    I can talk very intelligently about London too. Even about its restaurants. But I’ve never lived there.

    You don’t have to live in Chicago to be visiting Crib Chatter. Plenty of non-Chicagoans on here. But it’s pretty obvious who is and who isn’t.

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  151. ahh, look a this! further signs of the gang-fueled death spiral that is Pilsen *sarcasm*:

    https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170426/pilsen/intro-chef-opening-restaurant-across-from-duseks-pilsen-this-summer

    http://chicago.eater.com/2017/4/25/15419936/cafe-lacuna-pilsen-open-breakfast-slushies-cocktails-rooftop

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  152. “ahh, look a this! further signs of the gang-fueled death spiral that is Pilsen *sarcasm*:”

    It’s a good sign others are moving in just as some close. That’s healthy.

    But Pilsen isn’t in the GreenZone even though it’s fairly close to downtown. It has always been on the “up and coming” and when Nightwood went in there everyone thought it had arrived but it still hasn’t.

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  153. “But Pilsen isn’t in the GreenZone even though it’s fairly close to downtown. It has always been on the “up and coming” and when Nightwood went in there everyone thought it had arrived but it still hasn’t.”

    Wow, what a ‘straw man’, Sabrina! Who ever compared Pilsen to the ‘green zone’? I don’t know exactly what you mean by “”up and coming”” or “arrived”, but 1) Nightwood was immediately replaced by an equally successful restaurant and 2) if ‘up and coming’ could possibly be defined by rising property values and development, well, then Pilsen is inarguably ‘up and coming’…

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  154. It’s funny seeing an Architect, Doctor and Lawyer argue about who’s the smartest

    I’d rather have a sister who’s a whore than a brother that’s one of the above

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  155. “It’s funny seeing an Architect, Doctor and Lawyer argue about who’s the smartest
    I’d rather have a sister who’s a whore than a brother that’s one of the above”

    Well, probability has it that that’s more likely to be your reality..right?

    Remember that the next time you need to visit the ER you prick.

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  156. Just met a guy from Canada who was not a fan of their healthcare system. He was diagnosed with cancer and had to wait 4 months for the surgery. He also had a bad knee and was unable to walk. Had to wait 7 months for an appointment with the surgeon and then another 14 months for the knee replacement.

    I hear these stories all the time from people I meet from Canada.

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  157. This property is contingent according to the MLS…

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  158. That’s good to hear. Hopefully it sells for near asking.

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