Is the Loop Now One of the Top Residential Neighborhoods? 200 N. Dearborn
This 3-bedroom at 200 N. Dearborn in the Theater District in the Loop recently came on the market.
Built in 1989 as apartments, it has 308 units and a parking garage.
This building was owned by American Invsco and was one of the last apartment buildings converted into condos before the bust.
This unit is two combined units and has custom features.
It has south and east views and a pre-wired a/v system.
There are wood floors and a floor medallion.
The kitchen has custom French-style cabinets with a farmhouse sink.
The unit has 3 bathrooms and in-unit washer/dryer.
It appears that there may be 2 parking spaces included.
The building has an indoor pool and a doorman.
The Loop is booming, with new food halls, the River Walk, new restaurants and apartment buildings.
Can this neighborhood command the million dollar price point for a 3-bedroom?
Courtland Townsley at Touchstone Group has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #3801-02: 3 bedrooms, 3 baths, 1800 square feet
- Sold in April 2008 for $832,000 (included 2 parking spaces)
- Sold in January 2010 for $480,000 (included 2 parking spaces)
- Currently listed at $1.099 million (parking included???)
- Assessments of $1130 a month (includes heat, a/c, doorman, pool, exterior maintenance)
- Taxes of $7444
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 13×21
- Bedroom #2: 11×14
- Bedroom #3: 11×14
No
The Christmas lights are a nice touch
No W/D is a killer
The Galley kitchen is small
So much fail I don’t know where to start. Price seems delusional. Not sure of the building health / quality but at first blush and seeing recent comps in the building I would be surprised if anyone will pay much more than $900k for this.
What’s up with the 2010 sale? Did the 2008 buyer just make a couple of payments, stopped, and the lender had a firesale? Agree that no WD is a deal breaker at this price, hell at less than half the price.
Also this building resembles the kind of jail they attach to a courthouse to keep the inmates convenient during trial.
Property held in a trust apparently mortgage free. In retrospect, anyone with cash in hand during 2010-2012 could get some serious, serious deals. I pity those fools who bought 2006-2009 who felt if they didn’t then, they’d be priced out forever.
No no no…. not gonna break 1mm
ho-lee-shit what a find by Sabrina!
LOL!
“What’s up with the 2010 sale? Did the 2008 buyer just make a couple of payments, stopped, and the lender had a firesale?”
Yeah, pretty much. I’d be shocked if there were less than $800k in mortgages on that ’08 frau…I mean purchase.
This was *undoubtedly* a 2/2/2 purchase. What was the 2/2/2 worth on this one? Maybe $125k? (recall that that was 2 years of tax, assessments and *pro forma rent*!!)
LoL – this place must have been renovated at the salvage yard with mis-matched “vintage” cabinets all over the place.
” I’d be shocked if there were less than $800k in mortgages”
Ok, I’m shocked. Purchased w/o a mortgage in ’08. Crazy!!
The kitchen design reminds me of a review for an musician “… has succeeded in liberating themselves quite so completely from the shackles of musical notation.”
“Ok, I’m shocked. Purchased w/o a mortgage in ’08. Crazy!!”
I saw that too but i wonder if the mortgage was recorded against the wrong PIN or just against the building generally. There’s all kinds of stuff recorded the PIN for this unit. Especially considering how lazy/crazy/incompetent the brokers/wholesalers were in 2008, it was probably recorded elsewhere.
I used to live in this building. Its a former American Invsco property. The developer is infamous for being shady as hell. Anyway this building cashed in the height of the property bubble.
They were basically ripping the top formica counter tops off, replacing them with cheap granite, and then charging $450k for a 1BR. People who bought into this building before the crash got so terribly TERRIBLY ripped off.
FWIW you _can_ put a washer and dryer in the units from what I remember. You had to hook into the dishwasher line or something like that. There are a very select few units which did this.
I do kind of miss this building, the door people were awesome and super nice. They handled packages in a way that beats even luxury buildings. As you walked in the door the door person just handed you your packages 24/7.
Every other building the package place closes at 6pm and good luck getting your packages during the 90 minute window on Saturday. IF they open weekends.
But the developer promised to upgrade hallways and didn’t. Promised to upgrade 7th floor common amenities and…..didn’t. Couple that with the fact that they used some shady selling practices to get renters to move out. Multiple times I was living there I would have a realtor just walk right into my unit. Even though it was already sold.
If this garbage isn’t a sign that we are in some sort of a bizarro bubble – nothing is.
It may not be subprime mortgages this time…but come on guys. Asking 1.1 for this s*ithole? I wouldn’t pay 500k for this.
Terrible building. Unit needs a gut.
As I recall, the developer was trying to sell units in this building in 2009/2010 by having his law firm partner friends spam associates with info on available units.
For the first couple years post-crash there was almost nothing good for sale, and anything that was saw minimal competition. I looked at 50-75 apartments over 6 months. My broker didn’t care, he was happy to have a client wanting to see anything. in that time I saw 2 places I considered making an offer on and bought 1 of them. How times have changed.
“I pity those fools who bought 2006-2009 who felt if they didn’t then, they’d be priced out forever.”
And what about now HD?
In the GreenZone, most properties under $500k have multiple offers and bidding wars. Are buyers being stupid right now?
Prices at all time highs in the GZ and still rising.
“No W/D is a killer”
This unit has the w/d (not sure why they show the picture of the laundry room in the listing when it doesn’t apply.)
This was 2 units which were combined (which is why it’s 3 baths.)
I was going to do a post on the April home sales but it appears they’re not out. IAR was supposed to put it out yesterday.
Oh well.
We’ll resume chattering on Tuesday. Hopefully it will be out then.
Crain’s was reporting that one week in mid-May was the busiest week for home sales contracts in years in the Chicagoland area. It is HOT out there.
interesting that with this property the Zestimate®: $656,452
is pretty accurate
JANTERRIESTIMATE: $2
GO CUBBIES!!! LOLZ
“In the GreenZone, most properties under $500k have multiple offers and bidding wars. Are buyers being stupid right now? ”
At least these days low inventory and non-fraudulent underwriting gives a buyer some comfort overpaying for some subpar unit. 2006-2009? You had to be blind not to see the writing on the wall.
Epic fail except for the Christmas lights, so fancy! 😉 The only reason to live in a high rise and pay exorbitant assessments is the common amenities and these common amenities look like $hit!! That pool deck looks dirty….and the pool looks like a cryptosporidium love den. YUCK. This isn’t’ worth $450K. Seriously.
On a side note,
My younger brother and his wife are looking for a 2/2 bed around downtown. They’d like to be in river north, lincoln park, or the nicer parts of bucktown. The budget is 500k. There is literally nothing available. Any crappy ‘overpriced’ 2/2 that comes on the market gets sold in days.
I’ve been scratching my head for months as to what is leading this surge – is it low inventory? Shady foreign investment? The stock market booming? I don’t know. What i DO know having grown up in this city, is that when the average housing cost is SO far out of tune from what an average person makes, it’s a bubble. You’d have to be braindead to buy real estate right now.
PS – a similar thing is happening in los angeles. prices are absolutely CRAZY. The average person can’t even come close to buying a home.
‘when the average housing cost is SO far out of tune from what an average person makes, it’s a bubble.’
What you really said: “I want an exceptional house in an exceptional area at an average price, and anything less is a bubble”. What a FU to the *truly* average earning people in this city who live in decent but non-GZ neighborhoods.
Take McKinley Park. I have a good friend who lives near 35th & Hoyne, earns about $70K per year (still above the national average), owns a 1100 sq ft place, has a car, *very* nice neighbors/neighborhood, we eat at the Huck Finn when I visit which is once a month. Yeah, that’s how “average”, not poor, lives in this city, and to the best of my knowledge through my friend’s experiences, it’s quite doable. My friend tells me MP is starting to gentrify so there you go, I’ve found you affordable before it becomes unaffordable and before the Huck turns farm to table – think ground floor Lincoln Park in the late 70’s early 80’s.
There are lots of neighborhoods like that in the city, you know, for average people, and if your brother finds that “there is literally nothing available” for $500K in Lincoln Park, something tells me that your brother is indeed exceptional but in a self perceived kinda way.
“What you really said: “I want an exceptional house in an exceptional area at an average price, and anything less is a bubble”.
“There are lots of neighborhoods like that in the city, you know, for average people, and if your brother finds that “there is literally nothing available” for $500K in Lincoln Park, something tells me that your brother is indeed exceptional but in a self perceived kinda way.”
Get off your soapbox dude. While you were busy being a d*ck for no reason you missed my point. What’s the average salary in lincoln park for a household? Probably like 120k. What’s the average house cost in LP? Probably around 500k. My point is that the average LP household would have a heck of a time trying to afford even an average home in that neighborhood. For someone like my brother who is a higher than average earner for his age and is willing to spend a decent chunk of change for a 2 bedroom – the options are limited for anything that is newer or nice. That can be frustrating for a buyer in this market. Places that pop up in that budget are not all that great and get sold pretty quickly. There isn’t a surprise jump in everyone’s salaries that’s fueling the uptick in prices..Just seems unnatural to me.
That being said, not everyone wants to be an urban pioneer either. Mckinley Park might be like lincoln park in 25 years? Awesome. He’ll be in his 50’s by then – Great idea.
Wow, I just took a look at a bunch of 2/2s in the 450-500K range in the neighborhoods Riz mentions and, yes, what a load of crap for the money, unless your taste tends toward split face block, low ceilings or 90s light wood. Most would have been priced in the 300s for large periods of the past 10-12 years. It seems this segment may have spiked harder than single family homes have, glad I am not in the market for this kind of property.
Hey guys, let’s all get along. This can all be explained by simple economics. Demand at the entry level of the market is hot hot hot, for I think reasons: 1) a hot job market and 2) looser lending.
First, there’s no doubt the market is hot. I’ve got friends and co-workers taking new jobs and moving across country for six figures plus on a regular basis. I walk into Home Depot and they ask for customers to fill out applications. I see fast food joints with ‘help wanted’ signs virtually everywhere. There’s no doubt about it, Trump inherited a hot economy (outside of deeply red rural areas suffering for loss of jobs and depressed agricultural commodity prices). That job vacancy means the employer is going go have to pay even more to replace that worker, and suddenly the merry go round of lateral job transfers begins.
Second, lending is loose. Not 2007 loose but certainly loose. All it takes these days to buy an entry level home is a job (which everyone seems to have), a down payment the size of an average tax refund, and a credit score with a ‘6’ as the first number. I’ve personally seen entry level townhomes in the suburbs that sold for $80k in 2012 sell for $180k today. That’s INSANE CRAZY!
What starts the bottom in working class/middle class neighborhoods like McKinley park filters up to the recently minted physicians looking to buy $450,000 2/2’s on the north side.
Unfortunately though for us ordinary buyers, this party is going to go on for a while. Don’t underestimate the optisism coming from this Trump presidency, even Harding was mired in the Teapot Dome scandal during the Roaring 20’s and that went on far far longer than anyone expected. Keep your powder dry and under the next financial crisis and pick yourself up a cheap property at whatever stage of life you are in. I know from experience I picked up a perfect property for my family and lifestyle in 2012 and I’m financially WAY better off for it.
Good points HD. The question really is , how long will the merry go round last this time.
Much of the overpricing seems to be at the 700k and less properties. I think the higher end of the market isn’t quite as bad. And if you’re willing to move to the suburbs, there are some great deals to be had, lol.
I’m currently in lake Geneva ( don’t judge ) and walked past an at properties office today – my mind was blown by how many 2 mil + ( and 5 mil + ) properties there are out here.
Lake Geneva is old gangster money and old jewish money for the most part
the fortunes of lake geneva have come and gone too. i know two families well that bought large estates there, lakefront too, in the 70’s and 80’s for song when it became a little rundown. the current ultra wealthy boom has kept the fortunes of it going well for quite a few decades now.
Ah I see…yeah it’s surely a beautiful place but I don’t see the appeal as to what would make me want to spend a few million dollars there as opposed to somewhere along Sheridan road..or somewhere lest touristy on a Michigan lake.
I was only there for two days but the number of tourists was staggering. Also, I swear to god half the people there were fresh of the boat Indian families – everywhere we looked was a large Indian family, saris included, having a picnic. Not being racist ( against my own kind ) here but just perplexed as to why so many brown people vacation there lol.
it’s chicago’s hamptons. there’s many homes all over the lake and other nearby lakes. the homeowners aren’t going into town often. they’re on their boats or hosting at their home.
dunno why there are so many fresh off the boat indians but i know the place is fricken infested with FIBs.
Most of the people on this blog are handkerchief-clutching Greenzone ignoramuses who have no idea how 90% of the City of Chicago lives. There’s a whole lot of city south of Roosevelt, folks. Your sentiments are right on, Jay.
Here’s a family-sized property you can get for under $300K in the nice, safe and centrally located neighborhood of McKinley Park.
https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/reo/6133582420.html
So pay two- to three times this for a crappy 2BR/2BA in a shitty high-rise with bad amenities, or buy your own building and so much money left over you could send your kids to top private schools for most of their academic career. It’s a no-brainer for me, but too many Douchebags and Trixies will believe whatever they read on the Internet.
@Juiceman it’s not about being a douchebag, it’s about being close to work. The jobs are in River North, the Loop, and tech is taking over West Loop. Wherever tech goes is where prices will appreciate the most. 150k-350k salary range jobs have grown a ton in the past 5 years, hence the price appreciation. Many of these people aren’t living beyond their means… Well until the next property tax hike and income tax hike 😉
For what it’s worth , calling people Douchebags and trixies doesn’t help. The people that WANT to move to cheaper neighborhoods, DO. Some people want to remain within walking distance to work, the lake, the theater, awesome restaurants in the west loop, bars, etc – which isn’t Mckinley Park. Why is that so hard for you South and West siders to understand?
For what it’s worth, the Douchebags and Trixies move to Naperville, not Mckinley Park.
“The jobs are in River North, the Loop, and tech is taking over West Loop.”
McDonald’s is “tech”?
Google’s jobs are mostly sales. GrubHub is in the Loop.
Who is in “tech” in the West Loop?
“So pay two- to three times this for a crappy 2BR/2BA in a shitty high-rise with bad amenities, or buy your own building and so much money left over you could send your kids to top private schools for most of their academic career.”
There’s a reason people prefer certain neighborhoods Juiceman. You can’t honestly be arguing that living in River North or Gold Coast in a high rise is the equivalent to living in McKinley Park- are you? I worked in McKinley Park for 5 years. I liked it. There are great Mexican and Polish restaurants there. But it’s not really setting the world on fire with the rest of its culinary cuisine or even shopping.
There’s a reason houses are so cheap in places like Orland Park versus somewhere like Oak Park- right?
My younger brother and his wife are looking for a 2/2 bed around downtown. They’d like to be in river north, lincoln park, or the nicer parts of bucktown. The budget is 500k. There is literally nothing available.
No offense Riz- but this is just wrong.
You didn’t tell us a few things, though, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt:
1. Do they want a high rise or will a 3-flat building do?
2. Do they need “amenities”?
3. Do they need parking?
4. Do they need in-unit washer/dryer?
I can tell you that for under $500,000 I can get them a 2/2 (about 1100 to 1200 square feet) in a River North high rise easily.
Should I do a week worth of posts highlighting it?
In LP- you’re mostly stuck with mid-rises. Any new construction 2/2s will be above $500,000 there.
In Bucktown, you should easily be able to get a 2/2 for under $500,000.
But you haven’t given us the full story.
Is inventory tight under $500,000 for a 2/2? Sure.
But it’s not THAT tight. And yes- for the right properties there may be multiple bids.
“What i DO know having grown up in this city, is that when the average housing cost is SO far out of tune from what an average person makes, it’s a bubble.”
Is it though?
As long as mortgage rates remain low, and salaries move higher, the prices in the GZ really aren’t out of reach of the people living there.
The real problem will be when mortgage rates begin to rise and then the monthly payment rises along with it.
A bubble is defined by speculation. Is there excess speculation in the Chicago market? That’s the question that has to be asked.
“You didn’t tell us a few things, though, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt:
1. Do they want a high rise or will a 3-flat building do?
2. Do they need “amenities”?
3. Do they need parking?
4. Do they need in-unit washer/dryer?”
They don’t mind a walk up or a high rise. They don’t care much about amenities. Parking is a must. In unit washer and dryer is a must. Newer-Ish construction is a must. And square footage wise they are looking for closer to 1400. They are a bit on the entitled millennial side so they want something “NICE” that doesn’t need work.
The aforementioned is why I think they are having a tough time – but I don’t think any of it would have been unreasonable up until the past year or so.
I agree, if you’re willing to sacrifice on square footage or live in an older building with higher assessments ( especially in river north ) , the options aren’t all too bad. What I’m wondering is, isn’t 500k enough of a budget to get a nicer, decent sized 2 bed in a newer building in these neighborhoods? I’m finding the answer to be a no.
“income tax hike ”
Not sure if you guys missed this or not, but Illinois just hiked taxes 36% for the remainder of the year
“Because the income tax hike is retroactive to Jan. 1, 2017, personal income taxpayers will pay an effective tax rate of 5.81 percent on their earnings for the remainder of the year.”
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-senate-democrats-pass-5-4b-tax-increase/
SB 9 does the following:
•Hikes personal and corporate income taxes by $5 billion. The personal income tax rate increases to 4.95 percent from the current 3.75 percent rate. The corporate income tax rate rises to 7 percent from 5.25 percent.
•Expands the sales tax to laundry and dry-cleaning services, as well as storage and other services to bring in $55 million.
•Raises $54 million in cable and satellite TV taxes.
•Closes corporate loopholes worth $125 million.
And people are always asking me why I plan on leaving…
“Illinois just hiked taxes 36% for the remainder of the year”
I’m just a bill, yes I’m only a bill, and I’m sitting here [in Springfield].
Senate passage is one step of three, or have you completely forgotten your Civics class?
“What I’m wondering is, isn’t 500k enough of a budget to get a nicer, decent sized 2 bed in a newer building in these neighborhoods? I’m finding the answer to be a no.”
The newer building requirement is most likely one of the biggest hurdles for your friends. These neighborhoods are well established with lots of older housing stock. There’s a large premium on the newer stuff.
If your friends want a newer condo for that price, perhaps they should look in other nearby areas that have a larger concentration of newer stock.
“or have you completely forgotten your Civics class?”
apparently in my rage I have
“Not sure if you guys missed this or not, but Illinois just hiked taxes 36% for the remainder of the year”
Sonies, you do realize the pensions are underfunded by $130 billion, right?
Do you think the money is just magically going to appear or some fairy is going to save us?
They have no choice to raise taxes some way to find the money. This is the debate (for the last THREE YEARS) in Springfield (but maybe you’ve been ignoring it.) Rauner doesn’t want to raise property taxes. City mayors want to be able to raise property taxes or else they are screwed on local pensions.
And if you leave Illinois, where will you go? California with its 11% personal income tax rate? New Jersey with its property taxes? But maybe you’ll go to the holy grail of less taxes: Texas. Plenty of people are going there. I wouldn’t want to be down there with climate change, but that’s just me.
But there is no easy way out. Someone has to pay. We just need a budget so that the schools can open in August. This is the most pressing issue for most people.
“What I’m wondering is, isn’t 500k enough of a budget to get a nicer, decent sized 2 bed in a newer building in these neighborhoods? I’m finding the answer to be a no.”
There are no “newer” condo buildings at that price point in River North. The newest building is about 8-10 years old now (like the Silver Tower you commented on which was completed after the bust.) SoNo in Lincoln Park would also be one of the “newer” buildings (at North/Clybourn). Otherwise, everything being built in LP is “luxury” and 3 or 6 flat type buildings. Land is too expensive to build 2/2s under $500k in LP anymore.
Your brother should look in Lakeview or North Center. Their money will go further and they can get “newer” there.
If they want a “newer” high rise, then they can also look in the South Loop which has 8 to 10 year old high rises as well.
Otherwise, they’ll have to buy a renovated “older” unit. Not sure if those will be under $500k though.
Prices are at all time highs. And yes, many are getting priced out of some GreenZone neighborhoods now.
“Someone has to pay. We just need a budget so that the schools can open in August. This is the most pressing issue for most people.”
Why not ask the current employees to contribute more to these pensions? Why not tax the pensions themselves in this state? Why not fire more state employees? Why not cut the pensions? Why should I have to pay for these lazy bums to sit around doing nothing? I don’t care if they were promised these pensions. I get a 401k and if the stock market crashes before I retire, I’m SOL. I don’t know why these state employees get such special treatment.
“And if you leave Illinois, where will you go?”
oh don’t worry, I have that figured out already I think, it is a place with no income taxes though…
“Do you think … some fairy is going to save us?”
Angel of Death could. Sort of a fairy.
Hof might have an idea, too. Also sort of a fairy.
“Why not ask the current employees to contribute more to these pensions? Why not tax the pensions themselves in this state? Why not fire more state employees? Why not cut the pensions? Why should I have to pay for these lazy bums to sit around doing nothing?”
In case you haven’t figured it out, the state is basically a political machine that runs for the benefit of the employees of the state.
For example, Michael Madigan, the speaker of the house, and de facto most powerful person in IL, is elected by a small little district out by midway airport. Nearly everyone in his district is employed by the government, lives in a household with someone who is an employee of the government, or is in someway involved in a union involved in state government, or is a contractor of the state. These 17,155 people who voted for him in 2016 keep the system well greased throughout the state, and destroy it for everyone else aka the tax payer.
Another example of the system that is the self-licking ice cream cone is that judge who was elected on the NW side of Chicago but refused to do traffic court, saying that he had a conflict of interest. He was basically slated by Madigan and then spent his campaign fund donating money to local political organizations which keep the wheels greased for people like him. He gave money to Alderman Ed Burke’s fund, even though he’s a county employee as a judge! Makes no sense, or perfect sense if you live in IL.
Rauner, god bless him, has thrown a monkey wrench into Madigan’s well oiled machined and it’s all messed up. No one throughout the state is blaming rauner either, despite the noise you hear from the usual (D) suspects. And no one who voted for Rauner (except those involved in the bond market) cares that Rauner has no budget. They, and I too, would rather see the state go insolvent rather than give Madigan another inch. God Bless Rauner, he needs all the support he can get.
“He gave money to Alderman Ed Burke’s fund, even though he’s a county employee”
(I know you know this HD) Each of the Aldermen is also a County
(political) Committeeman, so they each get a vote on the slating of party candidates at the County level. Dirty as mud, but at least there is a connection.
Hd posted anti Dem rant which I’ve modified slightly:
In case you haven’t figured it out the current administration sees government assets & relationships w/foreign gov’ts as there for their benefit & there for the taking. (Kushner needing refi loan pitches secret back channels facilitated by Putin owned RE lenders?)
For example, DT gets elected by disillusioned voters who buy DT’s promises like return of coal jobs, cover everyone w/better health care @ lower cost, rid US of Wall St influence etc. That minority of voters enabled DT to appoint Goldman Sachs & oil execs along w/ fact deniers to cabinet level posts – Pruitt (what climate change?) heads EPA etc. Zinke @ Interior can’t wait to put oil rigs of connected cos in places like Yellowstone. Trumpcare’s much more costly w/ far less pop. coverage.
Dems god bless them have thrown monkey wrenches into DT’s corruption machine like Michael Cohen trying to broker Ukraine’s surrender? Manafort, Flynn & Kushner forget to disclose foreign receipts & illicit meetings? It looks like if anyone’s found guilty they might serve time (but hd will of course forgive DT’s preemptively pardoning Flynn far quicker than if O’d corruptly commuted Blago’s sentence.) Say what you want re Madigan but he can’t lob missiles & nukes to distract us can he?
southbound, you have TDS, and a bad case of it too. go take your meds.
hd mine’s never been used in golden shower scenes – has anyone’s you can think of been taped? Take another nip of Jim Beam yourself – wait maybe you can’t spell when you’re sober
trump derangement syndrome is real folks and it affects many of us. some like southbound get it worse than others. he needs an intervention and heavy meds. and a good mugging. what’s the old saying, a liberal is just a conservative who has never been mugged.
“a liberal is just a conservative who has never been mugged”
A *NEO* conservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality.
which was followed by:
A neoliberal is a liberal who’s been mugged by reality but has refused to press charges.
Which is an entirely different thing. Not a lot of NEO conservatives in the Trump-kin Patch, either.
btw anon I was not aware that aldermen were also county committeemen. I didn’t vote in municipal elections during my years in chicago. usually only one candidate for each position on the ballot with no one running against them even in the primary.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-raimondo-trump-derangement-syndrome-20161226-story.html
lmao, this is too true
“not aware that aldermen were also county committeemen”
Not 100% of the time, but mostly.
hd “trump derangement syndrome is real folks and it affects many of us.”
I agree – TDS affects hd & huge % of trumpsters who only months after supporting 8 Repub Benghazi investigations & then HRC re classified docs are now enraged that non drumpfsters support US independently investigating possible criminal conduct by DT’s campaign & cronies (& maybe DT too) re Russian hacking/ interference in our election.
I hope the investigations only uncover incredibly bad judgment insufficient to indict (imo weaselly Pence’d be even worse than DT). But it’s nauseating to see hd & R’s attempts at misdirection while they hope to sweep what sure looks like possible criminal behavior followed by DT’s Clouseau like cover-up(s) under rugs so as not to jeopardize R’s agenda. I’d end w/ ‘sad’ but that’d be piling on hd & his hero DT imo.
“Why not ask the current employees to contribute more to these pensions? Why not tax the pensions themselves in this state? Why not fire more state employees? Why not cut the pensions? Why should I have to pay for these lazy bums to sit around doing nothing?”
Government employees take less pay in exchange for the pensions. That was part of the deal Jenny.
You can’t ask those under the old system to contribute more to their pensions as they are no longer working. Lol. Firing them also won’t work because, again, they are 70 and already retired. Lol. You cannot “cut” pensions under state law.
Why are you paying for those “lazy bums” (the teachers, firemen, police, librarians) to sit around and do nothing?
Um…they are RETIRED. That’s what they do.
For current government employees, the pension system has been changed. It is more attuned to a 401k system. The employees are putting more of their own money into the system.
But fixing the current employees pensions is irrelevant when we’re already on the hook for the old pensions.
All of this has been known by state and city governments for decades. Many cities have been underfunding their pension funds. They haven’t been putting the money in so now that the large group of baby boomers is retiring these entities are screwed.
Was it poor governing? Of course. But, for example, in Chicago, it was Mayor Daley who got us into this mess in his 20 years in office. Why do you think he retired and has never been heard from again? He was no dummy. He left the pension mess for Rahm to deal with.
Also, Illinois isn’t the only state with this issue. Go check out San Diego and other California cities and the bus drivers who get $120,000 a year pensions. They can’t afford it either.
government workers haven’t made less than private sector in decades. that’s the talking point they’ve used for years to justify their million dollar pension. they contribute like 5 to 10% of the pension and the rest of us are on the hook for the remaining 90% which is often millions of dollars. few private sector workers have million dollar 401ks but virtually everyone with a state or local pension will ultimately collect a million or more dollars. it’s a scam and everyone knows it. they’ve fleeced the state, sucked the golden goose dry and now the citizens aren’t standing for it anymore.
I agree with HD .
Even in medicine, the county hospital docs typically make SLIGHTLY less than those of us in private practice – but get way better benefits, vacation time, and amazing hours. They get a huuuuuuuge salary aka “pension” equivalent to 60 or more percent of their income when they retire, ( around 60 ), after which they take private jobs and double their income for a while.
Such a scam.
The HIGHEST salary at Cook County Hospital is $450K, and a cursory glance says the majority are between $175K and $250K. Is that really “slightly less” than a private practice physician? If so, I’m glad I didn’t go to med school (not that I would have gotten in…)
Not sure about all government employees, but Chicago teachers aren’t eligible to receive social security (their pension is in lieu of SS), even though they contribute to SS.
https://cookcounty.socrata.com/Finance-Administration/STROGER-HOSPITAL/qh5r-cgep/data
Teachers don’t pay into SS. And this isn’t about teachers. or ER docs at Stroger of UofI hospital.
This is about the bus driver who makes $60k a year and get a $3,500 a month pension for life upon retirement. Or the $80k a year secretary who one year before retirement becomes an ‘executive’ secretary and gets a salary bump to $100k which becomes the baseline pension figure.
Again, the story about the retired CFD firefighter with the biggest boat on the lake in the boundary waters, spending his sweet pension money while the rest of us working stiffs are paying for it. Heck, there’s a CFD guy who parks his boat, named “put it out”, on grace st at the main entrance to Old Irving Park. He leaves it parked on the street during the summers. Living off the government.
a 25 year pension at $3,000 a month is almost a million dollars. How many private sector employees have a 401k guaranteed at a million dollars?
“the majority are between $175K and $250K. Is that really “slightly less” than a private practice physician? ”
Yes..because the majority of those making 175-250 are internists and general practitioners working no more than 40 hours a week, if that. A private practice physician that is a generalist Working those hours will definitely be unlikely to break 250.
I believe the highest paid were a neurosurgeon and an interventional radiologist…again, unlikely to be making much more of you compare hours worked. In my specialty government employee guys make about 40 % less but work about 50-60 % as much. If I worked their hours I’d probably make 50-100k more at the most.
On the flip side, isn’t the county so broke now that pensions will probably be a thing of the past for those entering the work force now?
Madeline posted “..but Chicago teachers aren’t eligible to receive Soc Sec. (their pension is in lieu of SS) even though they contribute to SS.”
No, CPS teachers are exempt from Soc Sec tax. CPS teacher pension averages $73,350/yr and they’ll each collect over $2 mil on avg. CPS teachers pay 2% of salary into pension (CPS pays remainder 7% of “employee contribution”).
CPS teachers can retire @ age 55 w/ min. 20 yrs service or 62 w/5 yrs min. CPS pensions add 3% annual COLA bumps. 40% of CPS teachers retire before age 60. I don’t know if teachers can also qualify for Soc Sec via other employment but I’d gladly opt out of SS if I could get their deal.
“I don’t know if teachers can also qualify for Soc Sec via other employment but I’d gladly opt out of SS if I could get their deal.”
Assuming that the government doesn’t just stop paying them at some point in the future….greece just stopped paying pensions at some point…there just wasn’t any money..
“Chicago teachers aren’t eligible to receive social security … even though they contribute to SS”
FALSE! No FICA withholding for CPS teachers.
“a 25 year pension at $3,000 a month is almost a million dollars”
With the COLA, it’s closer to $1.4m
“government workers haven’t made less than private sector in decades.”
This is not true for lawyers, doctors, engineers and other highly educated professionals. I took a 2/3 pay cut to be an attorney for the federal government, and work only half the hours. I’d make more hour for hour in private practice. Certainly the attorneys on the other side of the room in the same case make much more. My retirement is all 401K and a defined contribution which is less thank 2K per year. The salaries for professionals are well below salaries in private practice. The uneducated or bachelor’s level employees make market or above in many cases. The pay scale needs to be recalibrated so that government pay is more competitive for fields that require advanced degrees.
urban mommy, we are talking about state government. the feds pension issue is something completely different.
i personally And i’m sure many throughout the state would rather see it all go to hell than to cave another day to madigan and his political machine. while i may not agree with rauner on all his positions and reforms, i support him 110% in his effort to break the system in order to fix it. he knows no one will blame him except the handful of people who all vote D anyways that are actually affected.
“i personally And i’m sure many throughout the state would rather see it all go to hell than to cave another day to madigan and his political machine.”
HD- I hear Chicagoans on public transportation who I am pretty sure, without asking them, are democrats railing about Madigan. If you seriously think most of the people of Illinois support Madigan- you are nuts.
“But we don’t live in his district. We can’t vote him out. And he won’t retire- even to allow his daughter to run for Governor.”
Is it dysfunctional? Of course!
It’s also disappointing that the only candidates (so far) who are running for Governor are all millionaires and billionaires. Aren’t there any “real” politicians who can run this state? And yes- politicians have skills that are needed for governing.
I also support Rauner for trying to break the system in Springfield and to bring some sanity to our budget and the pension problem. We can’t keep spending like this.
But both sides are at fault for the position we are now in this week.
It will literally take a financial crisis to wake up both parties. And Illinois has had plenty of Republican governors over the years who were on the watch when the pension problems were building.
“CPS teachers can retire @ age 55 w/ min. 20 yrs service or 62 w/5 yrs min. CPS pensions add 3% annual COLA bumps. 40% of CPS teachers retire before age 60. I don’t know if teachers can also qualify for Soc Sec via other employment but I’d gladly opt out of SS if I could get their deal.”
They don’t get this deal anymore though, right?
They have to pay in more of their own salary. It’s no longer 2%.
And everyone focuses on the teachers. The pensions aren’t just for them. Those are CITY pensions, not state pensions. The state is college professors, people who work at the state parks or lodges, the state records clerks and on and on.
I understand the focus on teachers- but- again, that is a Chicago problem.
“On the flip side, isn’t the county so broke now that pensions will probably be a thing of the past for those entering the work force now?”
Um…no.
There’s actually a pension guarantee fund for companies that go under. You don’t get your full pension but at least if your steel company goes BK, you get something.
There’s no way the Feds aren’t going to pay what they owe. Give me a break.
And the Fed’s have had a 401k style retirement program for a LONG time now. They don’t have those old style pensions anymore. The pensions everyone complains about, where the bus driver gets $120,000 a year, are on the state or city level.
“a 25 year pension at $3,000 a month is almost a million dollars. How many private sector employees have a 401k guaranteed at a million dollars?”
I get so tired of this whining about firemen and police officer pensions.
Why didn’t you go into that profession HD if it’s so great and they’re all rich and lazy and living off the government? Nothing stopped you. I’m sure you could get into the police academy if you can get into law school.
But you didn’t. So quit whining.
Besides, the gold plated pensions of years ago are a thing of the past. The current employees don’t have those great deals anymore. Sure- in the police department they still can get a pension after 20 years of service. And good. Can you imagine the mental stress and problems Chicago police officers must have? I can’t even imagine the therapy they must need given the violence here. I don’t begrudge them for retiring after 20 years.
No one in the Gen X generation is going to be living on easy street with their pensions. It just doesn’t happen anymore. That’s why everyone has to be prepared with their own saving.
“they’ve fleeced the state, sucked the golden goose dry and now the citizens aren’t standing for it anymore.”
Whine, whine, whine.
No one made the cities or the state underfund these accounts. They simply refused to save for the rainy day- expecting that it would never come. Whoops! It came.
They’ve CHANGED the requirements on the pensions. Did it several years ago.
Every state and city knows it can’t afford those golden pensions going forward. First thing they did was to change the requirements. But that doesn’t solve those who are already well into the system and who shouldn’t have the rules of the game changed on them either in retirement or nearly in retirement. And the state Supreme Court agrees with that.
“the only candidates (so far) who are running for Governor are all millionaires and billionaires”
You just made Pawar and Biss really sad.
“Those are CITY pensions, not state pensions.”
Only as to CPS; all of the other teachers in Illinois have “state” pensions.
“You just made Pawar and Biss really sad.”
Who?
I would rather see this city burn than to keep shelling out money to these lazy oafs. I doubt I’ll ever have enough money to retire and if I am in good health, why should I? People shouldn’t expect to retire unless they become too infirm to work. Where did this notion even come from? My grandparents all worked into their old age because they were of the attitude that you should contribute to society.
All of the retired city workers that I know either have very expensive cars, a vacation home, or travel for large chunks of the year. I shouldn’t have to support that type of lifestyle. Give them enough to live on, but the current amount they are being given is ridiculous. I could have paid for a plane ticket to Europe for the amount my property taxes went up to fund these pensions. Instead, I am paying for someone else to take a nice vacation.
I support Rauner for the most part. I would rather that a budget not get passed than to have to hand over even more money in income tax.
Jenny,
You are mixing your jurisdictions. If you don’t want to see city retiree’s get a pension that is one thing. But the impact of no state budget is a tragedy for many, including child who are victims of sexual/physical abuse, domestic/sexual violence victims, the elderly and most any other vulnerable population you can name. Non-profit agencies are closing around the state, which not only results in loss of services but unemployment. Which makes more people vulnerable.
retiree’s do not get more than what they made while they worked, so if they have some luxury items, maybe they saved for them while working so they could enjoy them when they did not work. That is what my parents did (and neither were public employees).
And isn’t this a real estate site? WTF?
“retiree’s [sic] do not get more than what they made while they worked”
Um, yeah, some do.
And they often do it by getting a patronage job for ~2 years before retiring, allowing them to bump up their wage calculation from realtively low long term salary to much higher ‘final average’. See, for example, this dude:
http://media.apps.chicagotribune.com/pensions/art_berman.html
What’s his pension amount in 2017? $242,904(!!)
Now, these guys aren’t the ones driving the overall deficit, but they are a *huuuge* part of the perception problem.
They don’t have to pay state income tax on their pensions. Nice way to add insult to injury to working people.
“Now, these guys aren’t the ones driving the overall deficit, but they are a *huuuge* part of the perception problem.”
The most important thing you said, they are not really the problem. Perception is NOT reality. Does this one example justify all the other problems the lack of a state budget inflicts?
Jenny, who do you think state workers are? Working people. and no one pays income tax on their retirement income. That is the point. You don’t pay income tax on SS either.
The state is nearly bankrupt because they spend 25% of all revenues on state worker retirement income. The least we could do is tax their 6 figure pensions.
“Jenny, who do you think state workers are? Working people. and no one pays income tax on their retirement income. That is the point. You don’t pay income tax on SS either.”
They are no longer working people. Retirement income is taxed by the federal government. Why shouldn’t the state also tax it? The state wants us to believe that we are desperate for money and if that’s truly the case and nothing can be cut, shouldn’t retirees have to contribute too? Why should we all have to contribute except for retirees? I think social security income should also be taxed. Everyone needs to start contributing.
old people vote… that’s why this clearly obvious solution hasn’t been even proposed… sadly these idiots who are pretending to work but are really just pandering are proposing to tax hedge fund managers @ 20%… lol! Which they will collect zero dollars of revenue from!