Attempting to Short Sale a 2-Bedroom Loop Loft: 130 S. Canal

This 2-bedroom loft at Metropolitan Place, at 130 S. Canal, in the Loop has been on and off the market since March 2010.

130-s-canal-_1-approved.jpg

We originally chattered about it in April, when it was a short sale and listed below the 1999 purchase price.

See our April 2010 chatter here.

It quickly went under contract (so maybe it WAS a deal?) with a listing price of $219,000 but then fell out of contract and was re-listed in July at a much higher price.

The listing now says “bank has approved $304k.”

The loft has concrete ceilings and is 1300 square feet.

It is located across the street from Union Station for those who like to walk to work.

From the pictures, it appears the appliances are missing but the kitchen cabinets and the bathrooms appear to be intact.

At what price will this finally sell?

Dawn Siben at Green Brick Realty still has the listing. See the pictures here.

Unit #804: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1300 square feet

  • Sold in July 1999 for $242,000
  • Sold in September 2005 for $333,000
  • Originally listed in March 2010 for $219,000
  • Contract pending in April 2010
  • Re-listed for $304,000 in July 2010
  • Lis pendens foreclosure filed in October 2010
  • Reduced
  • Currently listed for $295,000 (parking included)
  • Assessments of $604 a month (includes doorman)
  • Taxes of $4951
  • Central Air
  • Washer/Dryer hook-up in the unit
  • Bedroom #1: 15×12
  • Bedroom #2: 12×11

109 Responses to “Attempting to Short Sale a 2-Bedroom Loop Loft: 130 S. Canal”

  1. One of my close friends lives in this building and loves it. Doormen are great, nice heated garage.

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  2. I’m curious – how do people like this sell all their appliances? Do they just put an ad in craigslist or something and someone comes along and pays like $50 for the refrigerator?

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  3. edgewater denizen on December 29th, 2010 at 11:12 am

    This is a joke, right?

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  4. Ah the old florsheim Building. I worked next door when they started the conversion — we were actually offered ground breaking prices to buy before these puppies went on the market. I had made the decision to spend my money on grad school instead of living next door to work — a good choice I must say.

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  5. I was wondering the same thing Joe, or the sinks for that matter?

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  6. Real estate broker (I think the broker did not renew license in 2010…) bought this unit with 100% financing, all $333,000 of it and refi’d in 2006 for $337,500…is also selling another property in foreclosure, currently under K

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1846-W-Huron-St-60622/home/14104476

    but considering that it sold for $650 in 2007 and now it’s under K at $225,000 for 316 days now…who knows.

    Hard times for real estate brokers. The good ole’ days aren’t ever coming back, at least not in my lifetime.

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  7. Yes.

    “#Joe on December 29th, 2010 at 11:11 am

    I’m curious – how do people like this sell all their appliances? Do they just put an ad in craigslist or something and someone comes along and pays like $50 for the refrigerator?”

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  8. “It is located across the street from Union Station for those who like to walk to work.”

    I am confused by this statement.

    Other wise, this place is great, especially at $219K.

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  9. well run, nice loop building

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  10. nice pictures

    not

    i mean why highlight the negatives of the property in nearly every photo… lets go through it picture by picture!

    photo 1 (no picture)
    2 – no view from this place
    3 – no refrigerator
    4 – no countertops or ???
    5 – no water heater/hvac?
    6 – no dishwasher
    7 – awful paintjobs
    8 – no bedroom doors/bad layout
    9 – more bad paintjobs, dated bathroom fixtures
    10 – cheap, broken, crooked venetian blinds
    11 – more bad paintjobs, cheap carpeting and cheap wire shelving
    12 – more awful paint, and dated bathroom fixtures
    13 – and last but not least crappy paint and ugly slate tiles!

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  11. In it’s current condition, it isn’t worth $275k. The bank is high.

    On sonies list, 4 is “no cooktop”, 5 is “no oven/micro”. And it’s better to show the “as-is” problems than to have people waste the listing agent’s time w/ a showing or offer that goes no where bc no appliances.

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  12. I met a guy who lived here a few years back. He was happy with the building. He bragged that they were picky about their retailers below and that they really help keep the assmts down. I was eager to see what they cost. 600 strikes me as average though if not high.

    Every time I look at assessment costs I am happy I have a SFH.

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  13. CK, often assessments include utilities, workout rooms, doorman and other amenities. I am not convinced having a SFH costs less. We in fact have both and I would say the costs just show up differently, say we had to change the roof of our garage and that is suddenly a big chunk. I feel the savings you talk about is more psychological than in real dollars. Of course if you are very handy things are different. We are pretty useless when it gets to fixing anything…lol

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  14. Dido on the awful paint colors

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  15. p-yuke on the interior colors.

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  16. “At what price will this finally sell?”

    -Who knows, but it’s gonna be years. Most likely the first deal fell apart because bank wouldn’t accept market rate. They’re now re-attempting to sell at the bank’s price, which is way high. I’d say we’re at a standstill until the bank acts, but they’re the slowest party in the transaction. Foreclosure late next year, back on the market mid-2012. This whole process is a mess.

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  17. will be an interesting comp for the hood. two balconies and indoor parking…walk by this building all the time…i like the location but i really wouldn’t like retail at the bottom of my building, and i don’t like the abundance of dog poop/pee there on Adams as that’s where everyone pops out to walk their dog.

    and if ever a place could stand to be painted before being listed, this is it.

    $1,000 worth of paint would probably make a $10K difference, minimum.

    factor in a horrible near term market, and lots of work to be done…survey says!:

    $257,500 ($175/SF *1300 + i throw in $30k for parking/two balconies)

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  18. Awesome location for proximity to work, terrible location for nightlife/neighborhood feel. Can’t imagine living down here. Maybe some i-banker who already works 80hrs/week and lives for work will value the utility of not having to commute. Not me.
    This is a desolate concrete jungle on weekends and after 7pm.

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  19. Law student Bob, Kent is right around the corner. In fact probably a handful of law students live in the building now.

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  20. This listing makes me believe that all real estate bankers should go home and watch the New Years Day marathon of “Flip that House” re-runs! Those shows sure seem outdated in todays market but could be magic for the bankers trying to rid themselves of listings like this one.

    They need to spend about 6-8 grand to get appliances in the unit and neutral paint on the walls. Then, and only then, will a normal buyer with a normal loan be able to close. Correct me if I am wrong but a standard fannie/freddie loan will not close when missing a working kitchen. This means that the only buyers qualified for this place are the cash flippers. My guess is that they are not interested at this price level as there is not enough profit!

    I wonder if that is what happened to the original buyer? Any thoughts from the mortgage savvy crowd? Did they try to close and hit a brick wall?

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  21. HD its no longer 2005 I really hope law & b-school students aren’t buying places anymore.

    Med school? Meh–they’re somewhat insulated from the broader economy so not as big of a deal I guess.

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  22. “Med school? Meh–they’re somewhat insulated from the broader economy so not as big of a deal I guess”

    They are up against a big wall. The costs of schooling and the time out of the market not earning in order to become a doctor will prove very quickly to be the worst return on investment of all education programs. With or without Obamacare the cost of becoming a physician will no longer be worth the investment in time and dollars. People will be doing it for the god complex, big ego, the desire to heal, or other reasons.

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  23. Mortgage lenders would require an escrow holdback most likely for the kitchen to be repaired. Some might let it close but the funds to put the appliances in the kitchen would be with held from the seller until it was completed. Good luck getting that approved on the sell side.

    This just goes to show you how incompetent and too big banks have gotten. It would be a lot easier as some other posters mentioned to just slap a coat of paint on the wall and throw in a cheapo kitchen so the place can get sold at a decent price versus trying to sell this POS in its current condition.

    What is even more hilarious is the bank wouldn’t even finance the property themselves. So basically the mortgage unit wouldn’t finance a property in the REO division. If the two groups actually worked together they could probably get rid of some of these properties easier and at far better prices. The asset managers need to fixed the places up so people can actually get loans on them. No one is going to pay cash at this price point.

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  24. “So basically the mortgage unit wouldn’t finance a property in the REO division [of the same bank.]”

    You sir have identified the problem!

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  25. “So basically the mortgage unit wouldn’t finance a property in the REO division [of the same bank.]”
    You sir have identified the problem”

    Yeah but as a banker would you really want to take on a new loan in condo’s? They are still feeling the burn and afraid to take on a new loan unless there is an AMAZING down payment and stable income stream. Those two things are quite hard to find in today’s market.

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  26. jp3, that isn’t even really the issue. The issue is that hardly any bank would finance a unit like this simply because Fannie/Freddie won’t back the loan. You would think the REO division would be smart enough to know that if a buyer can’t get decent financing, there is a snowball’s chance in hell of actually getting rid of the place at a decent price. You would also think they would know that some decent paint and staging would also go a long way to help them minimize their loss.

    The problem is that incentives are probably misaligned and the decision makers have no clue as to what happens on the buy side of the transaction and I can say this from financing a couple of these transactions.

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  27. I’m just baffled how it can go under contract in April and 7 months later its back for 1/3 more! It’s like pricing in a renovation that never happened.

    They need to find whoever painted this thing and sentence them to 1 year of cleaning graffiti off the streets. That will teach them a lesson. Poor walls… they never had a chance.

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  28. They must have tripping on acid when they painted this place.

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  29. They must have been tripping on acid when they painted this place.

    Ah, I just read this again, does everybody who reads this blog work at Union Station? Am I missing something?

    “It is located across the street from Union Station for those who like to walk to work.”

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  30. I think they meant in case you don’t like taking the train, you can live here and just walk to your office.

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  31. “I think they meant in case you don’t like taking the train, you can live here and just walk to your office.”

    and since you already have the route from the train optimized (even though you don’t like taking the train), this saves you from the effort of figuring out the route from river north, south loop, etc… (yeah I know this place is closer to a lot of offices)

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  32. JP3 Chicago,

    “They are up against a big wall. The costs of schooling and the time out of the market not earning in order to become a doctor will prove very quickly to be the worst return on investment of all education programs. With or without Obamacare the cost of becoming a physician will no longer be worth the investment in time and dollars. People will be doing it for the god complex, big ego, the desire to heal, or other reasons.”

    Hm. That is pretty much absolutely untrue. Yeah, the costs of schooling have gone higher, and will eventually need to be capped, but they are nowhere near it being financially not worth it. I went to one of the most expensive medical schools in the country, , none of my classmates have had much trouble with debt. All the upperclassmen are doing very well financially.

    As far as time spent ‘not earning’ , that is kind of silly. most people go to grad school at some point or another nowadays. the average resident physician is working and earning a salary at 26 or 27 , probably a few years later than their counterparts, but the salary as a resident isn’t awful. by the time they are 30 they are on average usually looking at ~ 200k, ( and 350+ if specialized) in salary. even with salary lost between the age of 22-26 and the money invested in med school, with half a brain you should have paid off loans and be well on your way to being a millionaire by the time 40 rolls around – and that’s being EXCEEDINGLY conservative. can’t say that is happening for most other fields. can you?

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  33. AND AMERICANS WONDER WHY HEALTHCARE IS SO EXPENSIVE. DOCTORS BRAGGING ABOUT BEING MILLIONAIRES OFF THE BACKS OF THE WORKING CLASS.

    “As far as time spent ‘not earning’ , that is kind of silly. most people go to grad school at some point or another nowadays. the average resident physician is working and earning a salary at 26 or 27 , probably a few years later than their counterparts, but the salary as a resident isn’t awful. by the time they are 30 they are on average usually looking at ~ 200k, ( and 350+ if specialized) in salary. even with salary lost between the age of 22-26 and the money invested in med school, with half a brain you should have paid off loans and be well on your way to being a millionaire by the time 40 rolls around – and that’s being EXCEEDINGLY conservative. can’t say that is happening for most other fields. can you?”

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  34. Am I the only one wondering what the point of pricing it at 295K is if the bank will only accept 304K or more?!

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  35. ““As far as time spent ‘not earning’ , that is kind of silly. most people go to grad school at some point or another nowadays. the average resident physician is working and earning a salary at 26 or 27 , probably a few years later than their counterparts, but the salary as a resident isn’t awful. by the time they are 30 they are on average usually looking at ~ 200k, ( and 350+ if specialized) in salary. even with salary lost between the age of 22-26 and the money invested in med school, with half a brain you should have paid off loans and be well on your way to being a millionaire by the time 40 rolls around – and that’s being EXCEEDINGLY conservative. can’t say that is happening for most other fields. can you?””

    Here we go again. Everyone is rich and doctors and lawyers are rolling in it. Don’t you know that doctors are the worst with their money than almost any other profession?

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  36. “Am I the only one wondering what the point of pricing it at 295K is if the bank will only accept 304K or more?!”

    No- I wondered this too. I think the agent just didn’t update the listing after the price was lowered.

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  37. This reminds me of the Trib article where the parents of Barrington HS students bought an old house across from the school as an “investment” for $189K (or something like that) so their kids could use the parking spots.

    “HD its no longer 2005 I really hope law & b-school students aren’t buying places anymore.”

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  38. found it, wow it was 1999: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1999-05-05/news/9905050067_1_driveway-parking-parking-lot-parking-spot

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  39. Awful location near a crappy law school.

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  40. From Riz: “the salary as a resident isn’t awful. by the time they are 30 they are on average usually looking at ~ 200k, ( and 350+ if specialized) in salary”

    I don’t think you really know what your talking about. A resident makes between 40-45K a year. That goes for every hospital nationwide. It’s basically a set number with a little COLA depending on the state. If they go on to specialize, a fellowship can tack on another 2-4 years and those salaries are also still well under 6 figures. Not to mention these people are working 80+ hour weeks and sometimes working for 30+ hours straight. You tack on the cost of medical school alone which can run over $200k easily, by the time they get those loans paid off they are usually late 30’s if not 40’s. Plus they might have regular college loans too.

    Sure they make it up later in life, but they pay their dues to get there and for what they have to go through, most of them deserve every penny they get.

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  41. Damn straight, Wilson. The wife and I are looking at 200k in her med school debt, and she won’t make more than 45k a year til she’s 33 (after fellowship). I’ve run the NPV on an MD career, and unless you specialize, or go into surgery, a medical doctor NEVER breaks even against a comparative biosciences career with an undergrad degree. For her chosen specialty it’s 19 years after graduating undergrad. Many internists and family practitioners only pull down 125-150k a year after all that education and residency training.

    This of course, after working 80 hours a week for 3-6 years after med school for 45k, and often requires relocation for residency, then fellowship every 3 years. For a providing a service that has virtually inelastic demand, that’s a pretty terrible ability to set prices, let alone quality of life sacrifices.

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  42. RIZ and Wilson,

    I will not turn this into a thread on doctors wages but I can tell you from first hand experience that they do not all turn into millionaires by 40. Far from true. Also many that I know are saddled with even more than 200K in debt. If they choose to marry an equally intelligent spouse then he/she might also have debt.

    I met a couple in October on their honeymoon in Mexico. They were just getting ready to come out of school in May with $600K in combined debt. She will be a chiropractor and he expects to take a position as an ER doctor in the outskirts of Milwaukee. Starting salary for him $140-$160K.

    Assuming that she works for three to five years (their words) before starting to raise a family I’d say that they are financially screwed. It will take incredible discipline to pay down that nut on $225K in income.

    Meanwhile they could have gotten out of undergrad 8 years ago with a combined debt load of say $100K and now be making a household income well over 120K easily.

    Also your comment that most people go to grad school anyway is funny. Perhaps in your circle of friends but I’d suggest that less than 10% of college grads go on to grad school. And a good percentage of them work at their existing job during that time. Perhaps Bob can back me up on this point. For those students there is no opportunity cost of the education vs. missed income stream.

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  43. “For those students there is no opportunity cost of the education vs. missed income stream.”

    Not to get into minute argument on this, but that’s not really true, either, unless the grad school is encouraged by and applicable to the job. There will be foregone opportunities and likely smaller bonuses b/c of the time consumed by nigh school.

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  44. BTW If it was not clear by my posts I am in favor of doctors making a great income to offset the costs and time invested in the extra long education process. They are vital to our society.

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  45. anon – fair point but a bit of a stretch. A good friend of mine recently finished his MBA. He was working for a big bank during the four years he was in the program. He received promotions as well as a new job during that time. Somehow he was able to juggle it all and not have it distract him from his daytime world. I’d suspect that not all students will be so lucky! Perhaps it has to do with the direct supervisor and their belief in the long term potential of the “student” at the company. I’d sooner promote an individual who is stretching themselves than one who is lazy.

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  46. I love all the talk of “missed income.” What is this, a contest or a race? What’s at the finish?

    I started undergrad more than 10 years “late.” I’m at least 10 years older than most of my peers (i.e., those practicing law for a few years). Accordingly, I’ve got at least 10 years of “missed income.”

    Unless I (start to play and) win the lottery or start some wildly successful business in my spare time, I’ll be doing this for the next 30 years or so. My traditionally aged peers will be doing this for the next 40 years or so. None of us will ever get our 20’s back. When I think of things I may have “missed” during that first full decade of adulthood, “income” does not come to mind.

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  47. “a bit of a stretch. A good friend of mine recently finished his MBA. He was working for a big bank during the four years he was in the program. He received promotions as well as a new job during that time. Somehow he was able to juggle it all and not have it distract him from his daytime world. … Perhaps it has to do with the direct supervisor and their belief in the long term potential of the “student” at the company.”

    Sure, but what if the MBA had been marketing track at Kellogg, b/c your friend wanted to get into advertising? Or vice versa, working for an agency and doing a finance MS? That’s what I meant, or something more removed from the day job, like working in advertising and going to law school at night.

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  48. “Perhaps in your circle of friends but I’d suggest that less than 10% of college grads go on to grad school.”

    Depends. Are we talking about professional grad school that will lead to employment opportunities not otherwise available (law school, top-15 MBA program, med school, extra yr to sit for CPA) or are we talking about BS grad school to delay adulthood/weather out the tough employment market?

    If its the former I agree. (Also note that MBA apps are far lower than law & med school apps for the top schools precisely because they don’t admit straight from undergrad so no spots for the delaying adulthood set).

    If its the latter I can tell you a substantial number of students in my undergrad went on to grad school. Heck a lot of them went to the state law school too and I’d be willing to bet many work in fields unrelated to law these days.

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  49. Quick search found a site claiming 9.4% of Americans hold a masters or other advanced degree. Seems generous but possible.

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  50. Geez. haven’t logged in for a while and was scrolling back reading old stuff.

    i can’t let so much misinformation stand.

    homedelete – don’t be ignorant. doctors aren’t making money off the middle classes back. for the amount of time and work you put in, i’d say they are compensated fairly. they work their tails off and make a decent living. I hate people that lash out without knowing anything.

    wilson – i’m a resident, and i very much know what i’m talking about. 200k+ was referring to post fellowship salary. i don’t know what old-timer docs you know that are in their late 30’s doing residency or fellowship, but i’ll be done at 31.

    jp3 – no ER doc makes 130k. thats BS. starting salary in chicago burbs is 225+, milwaukee is much more. and his wife isn’t a doc, chiropracters aren’t doctors so her salary is irrelevant.

    sabrina – i agree, doctors are usually very stupid with their money. my point is not to say that doctors are ‘rolling in it’, just that with a salary of 200-300k from the ages of 30 onwards, its not that hard to save up a million dollars of net worth if one doesn’t spend erratically. that’s all.

    Joe I – i can’t even start to work on your flawed logic. if your wife is doing a fellowship in anything such as pulm, rehab, cards, GI, whatever – she will be making 250+ easy..there is no way she’d be near that with a bioscience degree. i can’t comment beyond that, bc i dont know yours or her spending habits or loan situation.

    i like hearing from the non-medical public about this kind of stuff, it’s just irritating the amount of misinformation there is out there.

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  51. “she will be making 250+ easy..there is no way she’d be near that with a bioscience degree.”

    It’s (a lot) harder now, but she certainly *could* have been near/above that as a pharma rep, w/o any of the post-bs loans.

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  52. “my point is not to say that doctors are ‘rolling in it’, just that with a salary of 200-300k from the ages of 30 onwards, its not that hard to save up a million dollars of net worth if one doesn’t spend erratically. that’s all. ”

    RIz, I think you will be sorely disappointed when you finish your residency. The days of doctors making big money are pretty much over. Medicare/Medicaid cuts are looming and are going to happen. Also, don’t underestimate the expenses that pop up when you start a family (nannies, cooks, maids – because you won’t have any time to do anything). Also, don’t forget about taxes. If you make 300k, at least 40% will likely go to taxes. You will see – you will be 40 and nowhere near being a millionaire.

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  53. Riz said…

    Joe I – i can’t even start to work on your flawed logic. if your wife is doing a fellowship in anything such as pulm, rehab, cards, GI, whatever – she will be making 250+ easy..there is no way she’d be near that with a bioscience degree. i can’t comment beyond that, bc i dont know yours or her spending habits or loan situation.
    ———————

    Yes she will be making more than that, but the analysis I did was an NPV break even analysis. The fact that she will make more than she ever would have made at some point isn’t the issue, it’s the fact that it takes her almost 20 years to break even economically to the same place she would have been in, if you include opportunity cost, schooling costs, debt interest, etc. Trust me, I’m very impressed with the likely starting salary for her once she’s done fellowship, it’s just the road is an exceptionally difficult journey, and I think it is a shame that general practitioners may never break-even, depending on their schooling costs.

    This isn’t “misinformation”, with all due respect. It’s the result of a fairly in-depth financial analysis I performed when she started applying to residencies to show her what she was up against.

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  54. Riz is a resident getting $hit on 90hrs a week. you should not rain on his plan to be a millionaire it is all he has right now. plus when he gets out clio or some other established md will hire him at a pittance (relatively) with the promise of big bucks when he makes partner in a few years. clio will bill for his work like it’s his own and reap some sweet cash on the back of riz. but if he chooses he could still can riz when it’s time for partnership and hire fresh blood.

    docs make decent coin eventually, but it gets harder as time goes by. seems like they are raising the barriers/cost to entry every year.

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  55. CH, eventually reality will catch up, and there will either be a complete takeover by the gubberment, and nurse practitioners will be the ones seeing you for the sniffles and reading your films, or docs/the AMA will get organized to the point of actually being able to provide a private medical service for those who can afford it.
    Everyone else will wait in line for foreign born docs scrambling for citizenship.

    The residency system is a complete sham, and doesn’t need to be run the way it is.

    /Bob-esque rant off

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  56. Yes Clio.

    I will probably still be renting my 1 bedroom post residency and nowhere near having a million bucks. My father, his partners, and attendings are all full of it and fabricate their salaries and lifestyles, and my brother who just walked into a 400k job at the age of 32 are all “exceptions to the rule” and by the time i am a doc we will all be earning 70k a year.

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  57. Ch,
    You make a great point. A lot of doctors
    Rip off new grads and pay them low with a promise of partnership, then fire them later. Fortunately this is more or less illegal now and nobody signs on at a job without partnership in writing, but this isn’t the case in All states and one needs to research a job well before signing the dotted line. Refreshing to see a post from
    Someone familiar with the system.

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  58. Joe I, I think I’m pretty much in agreeance with your last two posts. Good analysis

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  59. Also, one last point. If the sky does fall and I’m making peanuts when I’m done with residency, I’m. Fairly sure I’ll still scrape out a decent living, love what I do, and heal people every day. At the end of the day, that means more to me than the salary anyways.

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  60. Riz, I’m curious about what you just said about partnership promises. Can you shoot me an email at joethefirstcc at gmail dot com?

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  61. Sure Joe, shoot u an email when I’m home later tonight.

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  62. Riz your analysis seems to conflict with Russ the mortgage broker who claims IIRC that as a profession he is underwhelmed with the income of physicians.

    I’m sure there are rich radios or orthos or anes or derms (ROAD) but not every doctor is rolling in the dough.

    But I’m sure you’ll do just fine as long as you don’t divorce your wife and be forced to support two households.

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  63. Riz,

    I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but the jig is over for doctors. In the 70s, 80s, and 90s, docs made a great living. Those are the docs you see in the 2 million dollar houses driving mercedes. This is no longer true. The jobs have become more stressful and incomes have plummeted. Surgeons make 250-350k/year but have overwhelming overhead. Malpractice insurance, office expenses keep creeping up. Medicare/medicaid ARE going to cut fees (and insurance companies will soon follow suit). Guidelines and requirements keep going up (thus requiring more time off for CME and MUCH MUCH more documentation = all of which reduces the number of patients you can see/do). Again, I don’t want to be a debbie downer, but you absolutely cannot assume or imagine that you will be a millionaire by 40 – you won’t. You WILL be surprised at how fast the money goes – and God help you if you have a family. You definitely won’t be rolling in it at 40. However, you are right about a decent living. I think all physicians will make between 100-300k with very few exceptions. That is not bad at all….. just don’t expect to be driving a lamborghini – that ship has sailed.

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  64. Clio … this is why I am glad you are back. You are absolutely correct about docs. I would add that about 10% will make more than 300K and 10% less than 100K. But, overall docs will remain the profession with the highest average income and that will not change.

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  65. clio is ‘in the know’ when it comes to doctors – right clio? right?

    j/k

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  66. HD – is that in reference to my “Chicago Magazine” Top Doc issue? If so, you have an AWESOME memory!!

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  67. Someone accused you of being a radiologist a while back so I figured you are in the know.

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  68. Clio is a Top Doc?

    There’s also a big difference in whether or not you do the private practice thing, or work at a teaching hospital and/or university/govt. hospital or clinical practice, as well.

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  69. Sorry for the late response, just got home from the hospital, bc, well, i’m a real physician ( unlike clio ).

    Clio – you’re pretty much preaching to the choir here, but your facts are all wrong. Docs were never rich int he 90’s. anesthesiologists were barely cutting 200k back then, if they were lucky. The days of doctors being super rich ( as in the 70’s and 80’s ) were way over by the time the early 90’s rolled around, and nobody has really talked much about that since then. Yes, incomes have plummeted in surgery – but only in general surgery , cardiothoracic, and vascular surgery. ( plummetted is kind of drastic…salaries probably went from the 400k neighborhood to the 300k neighborhood, not a huge deal in hindsight ).

    Medicare and Medicaid have actually gone UP in anesthesia and emergency med, and have been cut in a few other overpaid fields, but rightfully so (no reason interventional radiologists should be making 2 million bucks a year)

    Anyways, you’re NOT a debbie downer at all, bc you aren’t very familiar with the facts here. You are right , however, that many docs will make 300k or less. 100k is kind of low, unless it’s pediatrics we’re talking about. As far as malpractice, overhead costs, etc, BS my man. surgeons barely have any overhead..they take home 250+ easy…the only docs making at the 200k level or less are family practice docs, who let’s face it, don’t work all that hard anyways. As another poster mentioned, the type of job, ie, private practice, academia, and also the location – ( chicago is one of the lowest paying cities for docs ) has a huge impact on salary. a family prac doc can make 400k in texas and make 150 for the same work in chicago. the sky is not falling people.

    as far as my personal plan is concerned..i’m an anesthesia resident on a fast track for a pain fellowship. my hospital hires pain fellows at 500k post fellowship, so i sincerely doubt i won’t be worth a mil by the time i’m 40. I mean, if i can’t take 3 million of post tax income in 10 years and at least hold onto 1/3rd in net worth, that seriously sucks. and is unlikely.

    Also, lambo’s suck. I don’t want a upgraded volkswagen. My fam prefers ferraris. I have my old man’s for the week. Would you like to drag on LSD this weekend? I’ll put my money where my mouth is. you should too. after you take your foot out of it.

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  70. HD,

    i don’t know much about Russ and mortgage stuff, but i’ll agree with the latter half of your statement. aside from ROAD, it’s tough to break 400k.

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  71. Riz,

    Where do I start????

    First of all, you really need to knock that chip off of your shoulder. Even at your age, I was never that obnoxious. I shudder to think what is going to happen to you in 10 years.

    You really need to listen to people in the know and older than you (especially those in your same field). Medicine is changing and has changed. Anesthesiologists, radiologists, pathologists will soon be employed by hospitals. Do you really think a hospital is going to pay a 500k salary – no way. All of these docs will be making 300-400k max. Hospitalists are the wave of the future (and are also employed by the hospital).

    Have you heard of “bundled payments”? It is coming in a few years – this is why the administrations in hospitals are trying so desperately to organize and employ physicians – that is the only way physicians are going to be able to get paid.

    Right now you are (or at least should be) studying anesthesia and medicine and maybe don’t have time to understand the financial aspects of the medical field (which is OK) – but don’t be obnoxious and think you know it all – you obviously don’t . Again, I don’t want to rain on your parade, but you had better start living in reality and lower your income expectations.

    We are at opposite ends of the spectrum in medicine – and I could say that anesthesiologists are ABSOLUTELY 100% the most overpaid physicians in the field. When you are sweating, trying to save someone’s life as they are bleeding to death, the anesthesiologists are sleeping, or reading a book and pushing one or two vials of medication and yet THEY get paid more than surgeons – ARE…. YOU…. KIDDING…. ME?!!!

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  72. Clio,

    don’t shudder for me. i’ll be okay. if it’s any consolation i’m not as obnoxious in person.

    I agree wholeheartedly – Surgeons are definitely incredibly underpaid – not all of them, but general surgeons for sure. Anesthesia is not overpaid i’d say – but just fairly compensated, whereas other fields are screwed over. However, it is much more complex than pushing vials and sitting behind a desk. a Patient’s life hangs in the balance , and their consciousness, sedation, and sensation of pain depends 100% on the anesthesiologist. It’s a high risk and high stress profession, and requires a lot of training. I think given my position as a resident in the field, I know a bit more than you about it .

    Bundled payments is a pipe dream, it’s been pushed before and it’s failed before, also, it mainly impacts physicians such as internists and others whose salary is related directly to patient admission and readmission. In any case, it’s not a likely reality. I grew up in a household of physicians and am very familiar with the financial aspect of medicine. There will definitely be a trend of more hospital employed physicians as reimbursements go down, but they are also paying more and more to attract physicians from private practices. 400-500k hospital salary is really not that ‘out of this world’ for a specialist nowadays, yes, a lot less likely in the city, but towards the burbs it’s pretty commonplace.
    Again, i’m not disagreeing with you much salary wise at all – surgeons are definitely underpaid, most anesthesia docs dont make over 400k – ( pain management is another issue altogether. not hospital related income, hospital usually pays 350ish and the rest comes from private pain practice, at our hospital’s group anyways. ).

    Hospitalists are not the wave of the future. they are undertrained internal medicine doctors who do shift work – they work 7 on 7 off shifts and make 200k for working part time, essentially. they are the definition of what’s wrong with medicine in my opinion. They don’t know the patient, they are essentially lazy wannabe – emergency medicine docs with worse training. the hospitalist trend won’t last long.

    Anyways, expectations are sometimes not met, i know that. If i make half as much as i expect to, like i said, i’ll make out okay. i’m just presenting the facts. I really doubt the job offers i’m seeing now will be cut in half in a few years when i’m graduating, but who knows.

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  73. Riz,

    I understand where you are coming from but take it from someone who has been out for over 10 years. Things have and ARE changing drastically. Advocate, the state’s largest healthcare organization is making ACTIVE steps to employ physicians – this IS the wave of the future and is what is happening out there in the real world. Many of the academic centers are sheltered from the financial aspect of medical practices because so much of their money comes from grants, endowments and other sources. Most academic physicians don’t have a clue about what is going on in the real world. I trained at harvard and stanford and my attendings (though extremely arrogant) were absolutely clueless about the true financial status and standings of physicians in practice.

    Every single person in my family is a physician so I also know quite a bit about the medical field. Ask your father or mother or whoever is older in your family about their opinion and view of what is going to happen. I bet they will echo my sentiments about the uncertainty of the the financial future of physicians.

    Oh, and about the hospitalists, I completely disagree. I love them. They are in house or available 24 hours a day to deal with many of the medical issues that those of us in procedural specialties don’t want to deal with. You, as a pain guy will come to LOVE them as they will save you MANY MANY calls about constipation, insomnia, etc. in the middle of the night.

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  74. “Also, lambo’s suck. I don’t want a upgraded volkswagen. My fam prefers ferraris. I have my old man’s for the week. Would you like to drag on LSD this weekend? I’ll put my money where my mouth is. you should too. after you take your foot out of it.”

    bahahahaha owned

    awesome

    i’d love a 458 italia btw, what a ride… I saw/heard one the other day and was like WTF is that?!

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  75. ferraris are nice but take a look at their owners – most of them are much older (that is why your father has one)

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  76. Clio,

    i’ve talked to my old man about it many a time. his advice is always the same, work in a small town and be good at what you do, and you’ll be fine..it’s worked out for most of us, so far. Big cities aren’t the most doc friendly places, But neither one of us can predict the future, so we’ll have to wait and see. I’m familiar with advocate’s advancements..did my intern year at masonic.

    Ferrari owners are definitely older, as are most exotics owners, it’s not the price to purchase as it is the insurance and worry of scratching it that would bug me.my bro recently got a carrera turbo, first thing he bought post fellowship..in a straight line it’s actually faster than my old man’s ride, i believe. Honestly i’m not huge into cars, i’ve had my //m3 for a few years and it’s been dandy for me.

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  77. Sonies,

    the 458 italia rocks, it’s what replaced my dad’s car this past year, i believe. not crazy about the LED lights in the headlights though, feel like it cheapens the front a bit.

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  78. Riz,

    One thing you REALLY have to think about is whether you want to make 750-1 million living in rural louisiana or make 250-300 living in chicago. With my lifestyle, there is no way in hell that I would want to live anywhere smaller than chicago. Seriously, who cares if you live in a palace with 90 cars if there is nothing to do on weekends/weeknights and no restaurants other than mel’s diner down the rural road. Life is about socializing, interacting and enjoying – not accumulating wealth for no reason.

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  79. ” it’s not the price to purchase as it is the insurance and worry of scratching it that would bug me”

    Insurance is not that expensive at all – insurance for my 300k lambo is 1250/year for maximum coverage (and that is with a

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  80. “the 458 italia rocks, it’s what replaced my dad’s car this past year, i believe. not crazy about the LED lights in the headlights though, feel like it cheapens the front a bit.”

    your dad has a 430 scudiera? nice that thing is a beast

    I actually really like the LED lights, I feel it gives it a “unique” and sort of futuristic look

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  81. Clio,

    i agree 100% on location. my family practices in a small town , but it’s on lake michigan and only about 37 miles from the city. i could never be further than a 40 minute drive from a major city either. Your insurance is cheap. I pay way more than that for my car, and i’m certain we pay more than that for the 430…but we also get a lot of speeding tickets.

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  82. Sonies,

    it’s a f-430, but it’s not the scudiera- the scudiera is a bit more bare bones i believe, but is faster and pricier. i actually took got to drive it out to hinsdale for service this week, i love that thing. . the LED’s on the 458 just remind me of Audi, and every other carmaker out there nowadays, i will agree that it’s a unique look though.

    Clio, i’m still down for burning some rubber on LSD..i’ve got the wheels until sunday. 😀

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  83. Riz – you obviously have never raced on LSD – I did it once (the first day I got my car) and got into a HUGE amount of trouble. Thank God everything turned out ok = but with the tough new laws in 2011 for the same offense, I probably would have gotten a year in jail and flushed my career down the toilet. Don’t make that mistake today – there won’t be any forgiveness – esp for docs in cook county. You WILL lose your medical license and you WILL go to jail. Try that track in Joliet. I would definitely meet you there.

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  84. Clio,

    good point. plus the potholes aren’t that kind on LSD either. We usually get out to Ohio for tracktime, the Joliet one is underwhelming, i felt…i really doubt that we’d go to jail for racing though. but who knows, i have bad luck with cops.

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  85. “i really doubt that we’d go to jail for racing though.”

    you would be surprised how tough the laws have gotten – and no special privileges for spoiled brat offspring of rich parents – in fact they would love your type in jail!!!!

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  86. haha,

    not spoiled at all! i was raised very poor until after my dad finished residency, Think FMG with 3 kids and 10 bucks in his wallet. i grew up on the westside and went to public school. I was on my way to college before i saw any money at all, my older bro had it worse. the kid brother is another story altogether though.

    i believe you on the tougher laws, i got a ticket for going 60 in a 55 ( no joke ) on 80 last week.

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  87. Riz,
    I knew it – when I said spoiled – I kind of meant mentally/emotionally spoiled and protected – something very common in non-american cultures. Don’t take it for granted – it made you the confident person you are today. However, it doesn’t prepare you for the harsh world out there. Be careful….

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  88. 60 in a 55? you were driving a Ferrari or this is kind of nuts. kind of nuts either way i suppose

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  89. Clio,

    yeah i agree. A lot of eastern cultures definitely shelter their kids a bit more, but i know a lot of home grown american kids like that too..if i can handle the chicago public school system hopefully private practice wont be too much worse, haha.

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  90. CH, no ferrari. i was in a 08 m3 . a nice car but not excessively flashy by any means…i was literally slower than surrounding traffic. still not sure if i should pay up or fight it.

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  91. “still not sure if i should pay up or fight it.”

    As long as you can do traffic school (online) to avoid insurance repercussions, just pay it–it cannot possibly be worth your time.

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  92. anon,

    you make a point. i’m on vaca this week i guess 4 hours of online traffic school isn’t that awful. I just hate BS tickets. It was the end of the month and i feel like it was just a ‘quota’ ticket. annoying nonetheless.

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  93. “4 hours of online traffic school isn’t that awful.”

    If you’re really efficient with the clicking, it’s about 3:20. And it’s totally easy to do while also doing something else.

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  94. hire a lawyer and see if you can get it kicked or reduced to a non-mover.

    “Riz on January 5th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    anon,

    you make a point. i’m on vaca this week i guess 4 hours of online traffic school isn’t that awful. I just hate BS tickets. It was the end of the month and i feel like it was just a ‘quota’ ticket. annoying nonetheless”

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  95. “i was in a 08 m3 . a nice car but not excessively flashy by any means…i was literally slower than surrounding traffic. still not sure if i should pay up or fight it.”

    You must live in a bubble or think the cop isn’t into cars or too stupid to spot the six figure car from the rest. Don’t make the same mistake of assuming the same of the judge. Goto online traffic school.

    And FYI if I was the cop I would’ve had a huge grin when handing you that ticket. Don’t underestimate the amount of class envy out there nor that a lot of people consider people who drive (insert high-5/six figure luxury/sportscar here) huge DBs.

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  96. Bob,

    i see your point. m3’s aren’t really six fig or even that close though. it was ~ 60k. still, i see your point.

    HD,

    already touched base with my lawyer. waiting on a call back, i have a few tickets here and there and want to see if i can get out of it without doing the traffic thing.

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  97. 80 would be state highway patrol I’m guessing. I wouldnt expect that from them but what do I know.

    do they give traffic school if you go to court and get supervision? used to be you’d get off with just a fine that route. only had to do school if you mailed in the ticket. online school sounds like a huge improvement bc the classroom version blows, or did in the early 90s

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  98. I’ve never had a client do traffic school. Never.

    I get it reduced or whatever, they pay the fine, get 4 months sup, and get the hell out of the courtroom. lawyers cases are always called first.

    Traffic cases are something smart lawyers should learn if they plan to service and counsel wealthy families. I can’t even count how many traffic tickets I’ve handled for high net worth families and their children. You basically do them for free because they’re also sending you real business. Like Riz, your father probably sends your lawyer a ton of biz and when it comes time to help you out, it’s just taken care of. At least thats how it works around here.

    #

    #
    Riz on January 5th, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    anon,

    you make a point. i’m on vaca this week i guess 4 hours of online traffic school isn’t that awful. I just hate BS tickets. It was the end of the month and i feel like it was just a ‘quota’ ticket. annoying nonethelessbusinesses.

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  99. “I’ve never had a client do traffic school. Never.”

    I’d consider having to show up to court during business hours to have the case dismissed by a lawyer an equal amount of time as online driving school when all things are taken into account and much more of an inconvenience.

    Online traffic school is a joke. It does take about four hours but as long as you can click the button that DRINKIN’ & DRIVIN IS BAAAAAAAAD every time you’ll be fine. It’s obvious how much influence MADD has because 3 hrs of it is “D&D IS BAAAAAD” and very little time spent on driving when drowsy is bad too.

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  100. “I’d consider having to show up to court during business hours to have the case dismissed by a lawyer an equal amount of time as online driving school when all things are taken into account and much more of an inconvenience.”

    Yeah, and for us non from HNW families, you need to pay the lawyer, too. So, it becomes just a waste of time, esp. if the courtroom is in Joliet.

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  101. never had traffic school when i showed up to court either, and didn’t have a lawyer. though I did have to wait for the first couple of cases who had. maybe 5min at worst.

    has anyone gone to court and not got supervision? I see the trade-off value of staying home for the online course. but dont they charge you for that in addition to the fine? last time I went to court I think they dinged me 75 bucks total for an illegal turn. plus half a morning I guess when you add it up.

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  102. Riz,

    Be careful on LSD – I tried doing the S curve at 65 the first day I got my car. Even though that sounds fast, it isn’t THAT bad when there is no traffic, conditions are dry and you are in a high performance car. Unfortunately, the police didn’t feel the same. I thought all I was going to get was a ticket, – but because I was over 40 mph over the speed limit, I didn’t just get a ticket, I got ARRESTED and carted off to jail. Two years, several court appearances, and 10k later, I finally was cleared of everything- but it took its toll on me – I no longer will take any chances with driving – NOBODY should. You will get screwed.

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  103. oh man you got arrested on the first day in your lambo? That is hilarious. I don’t mean that cruelly, but it belongs in a movie. Kind of like when Topher Grace smashes his Porsche driving it off the lot in that movie In Good Company…

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  104. “I see the trade-off value of staying home for the online course. but dont they charge you for that in addition to the fine?”

    Think it’s $40. Better than hauling out to (eg) Will County, but would definitely consider going over the Daley for it.

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  105. I agree that going to court would be a serious hassle when compared to clicking through traffic school, my lawyer came through and it seems like i don’t need to even go to court in person , so it should be legit. On a side note, arrested for doing 65 on lakeshore? harshhhh clio!

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  106. ” On a side note, arrested for doing 65 on lakeshore? harshhhh clio!”

    Yeah, ridiculous – I thought it was a joke at first – but it wasn’t. Believe me, it isn’t something anyone should experience – being in a holding cell will mature u REAL fast.

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  107. Riz … Nothing worse than having to explain your felony speeding conviction to a hospital’s credential committee when you are trying to get on staff to work and make your millions. Drive safe.

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  108. “being in a holding cell will mature u REAL fast.”

    You have to be one of the most effeminate males on here. Being in a holding cell is nothing & it’s obvious you wouldn’t last five minutes at county.

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  109. Hey guys, let’s play nice.

    As far as county goes, i get patients from county all the time and they are usually pretty nice guys. =D

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