Crain’s: 205 Condos to Go Rental in Astoria Tower: 8 E. 9th Street in the South Loop

I wasn’t going to do any posts today, New Years Eve, but there is simply too much going on.

8-e-9th-street-approved.jpg

Crain’s is reporting that 205 units in Astoria Tower, the new construction high rise at 8 E. 9th Street in the South Loop, will go rental shortly.

The 248-unit building only sold about 39 units in the last 2 years (according to public records). The last 3 sales occurred on November 23, 2010. 

Crescent Heights Inc. last week paid roughly $45 million for 205 units, or about 83% of the 248-unit Astoria Tower, which was taken back in June by lender Geneva Capital Group Inc., according to people familiar with the transaction.

The purchase price is about 43% less than the $79.4-million construction loan, likely a disappointing outcome for Geneva Capital’s clients, a group of financial institutions and investment firms. The balance due on the loan when Geneva took over the project could not be determined.

The shift to apartments could help other condo projects in the South Loop, which have been competing over a seemingly dwindling supply of prospective buyers.

“This deal gets (condo) inventory off the market and puts bodies in the units,” says Chris Huecksteadt, a local director at Metrostudy, a Houston-based housing market research and consulting firm.

Crescent Heights is expected to offer the apartments at below market rents in order to get them filled quickly.

Crescent Heights’s purchase of the unsold Astoria units had been expected for several months. The company paid a modest price of around $220,000 per unit, a key to the company’s plan to offer below-market rents.

“The low price (for the building) has allowed them to be aggressive in their pricing, which, in turn, will help them with the lease-up,” says Aaron Galvin, broker/owner of apartment marketing service Luxury Living Chicago, who isn’t involved in Astoria.

Crescent Heights is expected to offer tenants one month free and rents lower than those at nearby apartment buildings. Studios will start at $1,010 a month and two-bedrooms will go for at least $2,100 a month, sources say.

Astoria’s rents are expected to range between $1.70 and $1.90 a square foot, compared to a range of $2.10 to $2.40 a square foot for the rest of South Loop market, those sources say.

How many other new construction buildings will end part rental/part owned in 2011?

Buyer to make unsold South Loop units apartments [Crain’s Chicago Business, Andrew Schroedter, December 30, 2010]

172 Responses to “Crain’s: 205 Condos to Go Rental in Astoria Tower: 8 E. 9th Street in the South Loop”

  1. G was right – rents will continue to fall. Great for tenants, not so great for landlords.

    And when the next south loop condo building goes rental, expect the knifecatcher “to be aggressive in their pricing, which, in turn, will help them with the lease-up,”

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

    In my opinion $220,000 a unit on average still seems too much to me to have a low enough cost basis to make a hefty corporate sized profit.

    I wonder if the knifecatcher’s strategy is to rent out the units short term until the market improves and then sell them for an average of more than $220,000 a piece at some point in the future. If that’s the case, then good luck to them, because this building will be apartments for a long time.

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  2. if rents do continue to go down, doesnt that mean prices have to fall further….

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  3. So how do the owners of the sold units of 8 east 9th Street fit into this scenario?

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  4. dd, they’re effed like housecats and won’t be getting out. The best they can hope for is the new neighbors might want them.

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  5. The south loop is a total real estate disaster. Even one museum park, the crown jewel of the south loop is in bad shape. The farther the south loop falls, the farther the west loop falls, which means the farther river north and Lincoln park falls. Great news for prospective condo buyers. ‘Yah wahoo wippie!!!’ (Yoshi Mario Cart sound)

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  6. That very sound is playing on my kid’s dsi as I write. “Here we go!”

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  7. This new pricing is not ground breaking, as yochicago.com was saying in their article.

    You could previously get studios in AMLI 900 for…drumroll…$1,010. So nothing new here. Just another company thinking they got a deal because its x% off the construction loan. Too bad their haircut wasn’t big enough for them to likely make money off of this.

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  8. I think they will make money, but any conversion tiwards condos is well over 10 years away. Probably 15-20. The best way to rent is just to go on craigslist and find a deal.

    I love how this post can actually get comments but the same post on yochicgo has none becuase crazy old Joe zekas will delete them or defend his sponsorship till his death. My new years wish is for more videos on “why I bought at 235 van buren”. If you can’t get a laugh at people blowing there money at that place than you have no sense of humor.

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  9. The owners are screwed. They could beg the new owners to buy their units at a huge loss, live there with the renters, or just rent their units out.

    It will be a good 20 years before they convert back to condos. This about the 70’s conversion craze that didn’t happen again to late 90’s.

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  10. Wait a sec, haven’t we been told that haircuts like this will lead to widespread economic decline for everyone? The article seems to imply the investors took the beating. Should I fire someone in anticipation of the after effects?

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  11. Sounds like condos converting to apartments could become the biggest story of 2011 to me.

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  12. Not sure I would ever want to buy a condo: too much can go wrong with condo asso., building repairs, renters, neighbors, taxes, lawsuits, value of condo, etc. Best just to skip this phase, as Sabrina said. Probably two or more generations will feel the same.

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  13. “Not sure I would ever want to buy a condo: too much can go wrong”

    What if your like me and your hoping for another real estate bubble to being in 2014?

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  14. well I think we all knew that the south lolp was over built

    not surprising to see this sort of thing happen. Who knows maybe with all these young renters the hood might turn “hip”

    Grace O mallyes and Krolls will be the new city hot spots

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  15. “Grace O mallyes and Krolls will be the new city hot spots”

    im a big fan of both those places. i really like the sloop tbh but would NEVER buy anything there. itll be a money pit for years, if not decades.

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  16. Oh my, in a moment of poor judgment, I considered buying something in the South Loop (CC steered me straight) and I checked out this place. The sales guy categorically overstated the number of units sold, attempted to tell me there was severe scarcity and that he couldn’t budge on price, which made me tell him “good day.” Thank god.

    The El runs right under this building and is pretty loud. My guess is there are a lot of studios and 1 BRs included to bring that price to $220k, I think it would be a stretch to clear the market on the 2 BRs at $220k right now. We did see one amazing 3 BR on a high floor, but my guess is there aren’t a lot of those nice units included in the package this company bought and the $220k is way overinflated. I’d say if they really wanted to clear the market, they’d need to price the studios at less than $100k, the 1 BRs at less than $150k and the 2 BRs around $200-225k (all with parking). 10 years of renters living in them and they will need several thousands of dollars of work to convert to condos and this developer will be very lucky to recoup their investment. Good luck to them.

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  17. I wonder how all this crap effects peoples mentalities when it comes to buying new construction condos… I know i’m going to stay the hell away in the future after reading about all these messes!!!

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  18. “I wonder how all this crap effects peoples mentalities when it comes to buying new construction condos…”

    If buying is psychological (as many people have argued on this site) then I would think this would severely hamper sales of other new construction condos- especially in buildings where there is still a lot of availability.

    But we will have to see. What will happen in these buildings in 2011?

    The Legacy
    60 E. Monroe
    Aqua
    757 Orleans

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  19. Legacy – probably will be ok, lots of rich people there that won’t put up with bullshit rentals, but who knows what the real % of units sold is

    60 e monroe – will not end well

    Aqua – JP morgan just bought a ton of rental units

    757 Orleans – thats on the do not lend list… who knows with that one, it seems very vacant compared to the silver tower. I do like the brand spanking new walgreens in the 1st floor of that one though

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  20. “If buying is psychological (as many people have argued on this site) then I would think this would severely hamper sales of other new construction condos- especially in buildings where there is still a lot of availability.”
    __________________________________________

    The problem with this theory is that I believe the developers misrepresent the quantity of units available because they know no one wants to buy into a place where the building is only 20% sold and could be subject to crazy actions by the developer, such as massive price cuts two weeks after closing or conversion to an 80% rental building. I looked at 757 Orleans and was told they were “going fast” and that they had very limited availability, but I don’t think that is the case because I never saw more than a handful of lights on and when I went to the building it looked like a college dorm with mostly young renters in the units that were occupied.

    My brother wants to buy something in Chicago to move here after he retires since it is so much cheaper than NYC, he went to look at Aqua and they told him there were only a handful of places available. Now maybe a lot of places were under contract and the deals fell through, but the developers at everything I looked at had the same “supply is scarce and we are almost completely sold or under contract, so you better act now.” I got the sense they were using the same sales methods they used during the bubble and they might be shooting themselves in the foot with it. I can’t remember where it was, but one place gave me the old “oh, I’ve got someone who’s really interested in this place and I think we’ll get an offer on it tomorrow, so if you’re interested, you better sign something now” pitch. Then, I got calls for weeks asking me to come back to take another look. There is a lot of desperation out there and the sooner these guys take their losses, the better off they will be because interest and carrying costs on these developments can’t be cheap, plus with the declining market, they might be waiting for a long time to sell at the price they think is fair.

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  21. “Aqua – JP morgan just bought a ton of rental units”

    They bought the apartment building portion- NOT the condo portion. Remember- this building has hundreds of units (plus the hotel.)

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  22. This is only a good thing it creates the floor; more deals and the faster they come will help settle the market. No doubt some people are in pain and others are enjoying but most are trying to muddle their way through this god-awful mess.

    Happy New Year!, gonna tour some places [not on CC] hopefully G will gift me a huge knife for my new years present.

    I only hope I can be as luck as some investors out there. There are deals you have to go and make them; but serious if any of you have a inside connection to a bank or holder of reos let me know.

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  23. perma bear, give yourself a pat on the back for having a brain and using it. those sales techniques are pathetic but that’s how quite a few realtors make their living. buyer beware.

    i think the Legacy is up a creek as well. 90% sold on the website — you know what they say about statistics. my guess is 50% sold at best.

    …don’t care how many rich people are in the building. that place is overpriced. i toured a model/saw a unit or two about a year back…definitely some great units on the high floors but there are plenty that feel cramped and are not worth anywhere near full ask… hell, they want $500+/SF even for the smallest ones with no view. mid $600K’s starting for the smallest two bedrooms?

    not in this market. ain’t happening. prices only a developer could love

    http://www.bestchicagocondos.com/blog/legacy-developer-doesnt-intend-to-cut-prices/

    from over a year ago…notice still spouting the 90% number.

    and i just don’t get who wants to pay luxury prices and step out onto Wabash every morning.

    while we’re on the subject — talk about a need for transparency. the ability of developers to practically make up #’s when it comes to what is sold and to hide inventory is borderline criminal. it shouldn’t be allowed. and no honest developer should feel the need to hide exactly how many units have CLOSED, how many are still pending, and how many they’re still holding.

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  24. “that place is overpriced.”

    I might buy a place in foreclosure at the Legacy, not sure. I’m pretty sure it’s headed for financial distress along with many of the other newer highrise builds that started closings in 2009 or later.

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  25. “the ability of developers to practically make up #’s ”

    My favorite was the old Odyssey lofts on Jackson & Halsted in the West Loop. (Since renamed to 770 Lofts I believe to distance themselves from shady practices of the past). Another development at 775 W Jackson has assumed the Odyssey Lofts name since October, but was not the original Odyssey Lofts. The original Odyssey Lofts had a sign up for the longest time saying only 8 units left, when in fact they had only sold eight units.

    My advice would be to steer clear of these obviously dishonest developers. Especially given they are constantly rebranding and shuffling the musical chairs as to which development is which name.

    http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2010/10/05/greektowns-odyssey-lofts-rebranded-relaunched-as-770-lofts.php

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  26. while we’re on the subject — talk about a need for transparency. the ability of developers to practically make up #’s when it comes to what is sold and to hide inventory is borderline criminal. it shouldn’t be allowed. and no honest developer should feel the need to hide exactly how many units have CLOSED, how many are still pending, and how many they’re still holding.

    _________________________________________________

    You hit the nail on the head. There were a few places that I had enough interest in that I asked for the contract they were using and the counterparty was always something that read to me like “[INSERT BIG DEVELOPER NAME HERE] Super Bankruptcy Remote Thinly Capitalized [INSERT BUILDING ADDRESS HERE], LLC.” And the common area warranties were always already expired because they started when the building closed on its first unit. So I would ask if they would be willing to put a guarantee by the actual developer, not its thinly capitalized LLC, in the contract and grant me a pro rata common area warranty for some time after the closing. They always said no. I would have also asked for a representation on the number of units sold and under contract, but I never even got to the point of asking for it since my tier one issues of financial wherewithal of the seller and common area warranty terms were not satisfactory. I think that in this market anyone who buys new construction without demanding these terms is asking for trouble. My brother’s place in Brooklyn was built by a reputable company, but they pulled the old “throw the LLC into bankruptcy as soon as we’re mostly sold and looking at a material warranty claim” trick, leaving every purchaser on their own with respect to defects in the units and the board on the hook for the common element problems. The cost of a fraudulent conveyance/veil piercing suit would have exceeded the cost of the repairs, so they were pretty much stuck.

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  27. OMP east is supposedly 90-95% sold too and look at the fiasco there. Also I would not be surprised if OMP west goes rental as it is pretty much empty.
    I like Aqua too, but I am not too sure how that will go either and I don’t like condo/hotel concept at all.
    Maybe the best thing is to buy at more established, older buildings after all. On the other hand if new condo developments stop, eventually (5-10 years?) some of the ones going rental now will get converted to back to condos and that is how one can make money. The safer bets of today might be considered too old in a decade and just won’t be money makers.
    Well, hopefully we will all still be around and will see what happens. Happy New Year all fellow CCers.

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  28. Is there a website where I can find when construction loans are due for all of the high rise condos such as aqua, legacy, superior 110, 757 Orleans, mondial, etc. I want to wait to buy a place until something similar to what happened at silver tower and the prices take a huge buzz cut.

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  29. Maybe you’re right. But in the case of the project/deal sponsor, it’s well worth their time, if they structured the deal the way these deals generally get done:

    $45 million purchase price. Sponsor puts up 25% equity and 75% debt, of the equity, let’s say sponsor (Crescent Heights) puts up 10%, that’s $1.125 to buy the deal. They get some insitututional JV partner to put up 90% of the equity, then the sponsor loads the deal up with fees: Acquisition fee of $300K, maybe the sponsor lined up the debt, there’s another fee $250K, pretty soon you see they really didn’t put much cash in to be worried about. Then the sponsor gets the ongoing management fees, “administrative” fees, whatever line-items in the spreadsheet they can glom onto. How about the ongoing leasing commission fees? That’s how many of the deal sponsors at this level approach things. It’s the groups that are in the LP position, or the JV partner something like the IL Teachers pension fund, etc. that get reamed.

    “Too bad their haircut wasn’t big enough for them to likely make money off of this.”

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  30. Revassal, I love knife catchers. They help absorb the pain with their $s and encourage others that the water is fine. The more bagholders the better for the rest of us. There sure ain’t enough of them to alter the inevitable course of the correction, but they are good for erecting signposts along the way.

    It’s only those who don’t see themselves as knife catchers today that bring irresistable amusement.

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  31. “Grace O mallyes and Krolls will be the new city hot spots”

    I wouldn’t walk across the street to that lousy O’Malleys joint and I live across the street.

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  32. ONLY LOW-RISE CONDOS: That’s what I’ve always told myself because of the asst and I have a wonderful 1-bd in Lincoln Park that is cash flow positive (20%, 20yr loan)… and I don’t have to worry about $800/mth asst!!!! Mine are $120. The tenant pays for everything except water. Love it and would do it again in a heart-beat. It took me a few years to feel good about this decision as at first I thought I bought at the very high end of the boom (2001) but I was wrong.

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  33. I enjoy renting in the South Loop. Renting.

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  34. I couldn’t lived in the SLoop. Yea the places are way nicer & more modern than mine but there’s really no neighborhood to speak of & it’s more expensive to boot.

    I live a nice, thrifty, good lifestyle in Lakeview. Yeah the commute sucks but most of these places in the South Loop (anything but very northern edge) you still need to use transit. So what their commute isn’t 45mins it’s 25mins. Lakeview is definitely worth the extra 40mins/day IMO.

    Developers built huge buildings on top of concrete jungles where no neighborhood existed previously. Maybe in 10 years the Sloop will be a lot nicer but from my impressions (not a resident and not a frequent visitor) it sucks now.

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  35. “Not sure I would ever want to buy a condo: too much can go wrong with condo asso., building repairs, renters, neighbors, taxes, lawsuits, value of condo, etc. Best just to skip this phase, as Sabrina said. Probably two or more generations will feel the same.”

    I find these comments odd..and slightly short cited. We have all agreed that even the SFHs in rich burbs have taken a hit (well all of us but Clio)..for example, see the new posting on the house in Kenilworth. We also agree that it will take a long time for real estate and the economy in general to recover. We also agree that the world for this generation of grads is much different…they are further in debt for their degrees, job security is at an all time low (no one expects to work for a company for 20+ years as many of our parents did)…in general, we all feel that long term economic prospects for this generation of buyers is less positive than generations before. (See all the postings in the Kenilworth article). If this is the case, than this makes an argument for condo living long-term, much like Europe does. Europeans (except in rural areas) don’t even contemplate owning a SFH b/c its just too cost prohibitive. If we are heading in the direction of Europe economically speaking (no guarantee that a good college degree will get you long-term stable employment) then isn’t condo living more sensible? Isn’t buying a SFH just too much leverage? I don’t see this generation wanting to move to Plainfield where SFHs are reasonably priced…and, in the future, commuting costs will be high and green living required…Thus, in the short term these condos are a risk…but condo living on the whole not so much. The banks just need to losen up lending on condos so that the market starts moving as these are more sensible long-term.

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  36. “The banks just need to losen up lending on condos so that the market starts moving as these are more sensible long-term.”

    I agree with this. Not sure about the rest of your spiel however condo owners are F’d cuz national interests dictate the financing terms/availability. And most voters aren’t the urban set/aren’t into condo living.

    There is a reason why there’s only like 5 cities in the CS condo index and 20 in the SFH index–condo living mostly applies to the interior of very large urban centers, for the most part.

    Your demographic comments mean little when housing terms are dictated nationally by large governmental bodies. Most Americans dream of owning a SFH/TH and vote accordingly, the minority live in condos. They are currently getting shafted via policy makers & I suspect it was similar in prior busts.

    This is just another reason why we need the government out of housing–there’s no reason SFH/TH owners should receive preferential financing terms vs. condos unless its based on a legitimate, private market, risk-adjusted basis.

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  37. “Europeans (except in rural areas) don’t even contemplate owning a SFH b/c its just too cost prohibitive. If we are heading in the direction of Europe economically speaking (no guarantee that a good college degree will get you long-term stable employment) then isn’t condo living more sensible? Isn’t buying a SFH just too much leverage? I don’t see this generation wanting to move to Plainfield where SFHs are reasonably priced.”

    I would argue only NY and Boston are truly “urban” in the United States (where people will live in 2 bedroom condos/apartments and raise their kids there.) In every other city, once the kids come the impetus is to leave the city (and certainly not live in a condo- a house, yes, a smaller condo, no.)

    Chicago is not “urban” in that way- or else everyone would be scrambling to buy the big 3000 co-ops that line the lakefront- which were truly built to be houses in the sky. You could easily raise a family there- which they do in NY. Here in Chicago- you can’t give them away.

    There are plenty of 2-bedrooms and 3-bedrooms that have been featured here that you could, of course, raise kids in in Lakeview, Lincoln Square, LP, Bucktown etc. But no one seems to do it. Why not? Chicago isn’t “urban” in that way.

    By the way- I hate it when people assume to buy a “cheap” single family home you have to move to Plainfield. Have you ever been out to the suburbs? You can get a nice vintage house in Berwyn for around $100k (in foreclosure) or $200k if it’s not. It’s just a few miles from the city and faster to downtown than it is living in Lincoln Square. Or what about somewhere like Highwood on the North Shore? Or heck, Highland Park or Deerfield. Houses selling anywhere from $120k to $300k (depending on foreclosure/remodel.)

    The choice isn’t Plainfield v. the city. It’s city versus the interior established suburbs- which have come down massively in price and which have better schools (for the most part) and decent commutes via public transportation and also nice restaurants and amenitiies.

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  38. Word up Sabrina!

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  39. To repeat: I think it Is extremely short sighted to assume that no one is adopting a ‘european model’ and raising kids in the city. I am raising three children on a two bedroom town home and Love it. I can’t imagine trading it for more space in a bur We walk to the lake and museums weekly, especially during the summer. And my commute is negligible. I know Many families that are doing the same. I really do see it as a choice
    between an American model which says ‘trade space for a long commute’ and a European model which values quality of life.

    One more thing: our town home, while small, is not cramped. We are just vigilant about all the crap that comes into the house.

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  40. “There are plenty of 2-bedrooms and 3-bedrooms that have been featured here that you could, of course, raise kids in in Lakeview, Lincoln Square, LP, Bucktown etc. But no one seems to do it. Why not? Chicago isn’t “urban” in that way.”

    Chicago has been “urban” in that way in the past and still is really. Lots of people are raised in the city Sabrina. And many millions were in the past. I grew up in a neighborhood full of people raising kids in apartments; Hell, I was raised in a 2 flat.

    I think some of the people posting here have a rather limited view of Chicago. Especially if you think “no one” is raising kids here.

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  41. Hi,

    I have several clients looking for homes in HP and Deerfield and there are a lot of great options under 400K. The schools are terrific up there and I grew up there 🙂

    If anyone is interested, email Sabrina and she can put us in touch

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  42. a local, “Thus, in the short term these condos are a risk…but condo living on the whole not so much. The banks just need to losen up lending on condos so that the market starts moving as these are more sensible long-term.

    Say that to a condo owner with a special assessment… also there are few ways to control common costs such as heat, AC. No thanks, I’d rather be able to control my costs and not depend on others who may not (or cannot) pay their fair share. Condos are huge risks now that are reflected by with current lending. As a European, I do not agree with your assessment. Have a great and safe holiday.

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  43. Heck park ridge has some ranch options in the 200’s that are decent. 330k recently sold a very solid recently updated boring ranch home one block from the grade school in a very nice safe area.

    Not everyone will have to move to Plainfield to find the SFH and that 250-300k price is not out of reach for some buyers that would be otherwise looking at a 2 bd condo.

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  44. Clearly many parents, well-heeled or otherwise, see fit to raise their kids in the city of Chicago.

    If Sabrina’s comment were correct, Chicago wouldn’t have several highly rated, highly sought-after public school districts (e.g., Lincoln, Ogden, Blaine, Bell, etc.). I grew up in Minneapolis, and we simply did not have strong public schools like this in the city.

    Given the housing stock in the Ogden attendance area, for example, the majority of those students must live in condos. And there are many, many others who raise children in condos and send their kids to Latin, BSC, Parker, etc. I am one of them.

    Many parents will continue to make the conscious choice to raise kids in the City of Chicago for many years to come.

    Rock on, Endora.

    “I would argue only NY and Boston are truly “urban” in the United States (where people will live in 2 bedroom condos/apartments and raise their kids there.) In every other city, once the kids come the impetus is to leave the city (and certainly not live in a condo- a house, yes, a smaller condo, no.)”

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  45. “Many parents will continue to make the conscious choice to raise kids in the City of Chicago for many years to come.”

    I think that Sabrina’s point is that even more have, and will continue, not to. The few quality public schools guarantee it.

    Do any of these Euro cities have as many high crime areas as close to the aristocracy as here?

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  46. Christy Phillips on January 1st, 2011 at 9:36 am

    I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER even THINK about buying a condo again! No oversite of builders by the city, rampant graft, defunct LLC’s, dishonest and unqualified “developers” and the worst, idiot homeowners who think ignoring problems will make them go away.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/33451644/Bryton-Development-4525-N-Western-Chicago-3021-3023-N-Southport-Kevin-Bryar-Tom-Staunton-Michael-J-Coleman-Construction

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  47. “Clearly many parents, well-heeled or otherwise, see fit to raise their kids in the city of Chicago.”

    I didn’t say people weren’t raising their kids in the city. I said they weren’t doing so in 2 bedroom condos like they do in NY. Those in the Blaine and the Bell are living in single family homes or maybe townhouses. I’m not saying this is everyone- but if raising the kids in 2-bedrooms condos was so “in” then all of those units in the Blaine district would be flying off the shelves in re-sale and instead they can’t give them away. And many have a child in the second bedroom.

    Doesn’t the Ogden district include most of the SFH of the gold coast? So- once again- many of the kids there are probably living in SFH and not the 2-bedrooms at 1250 N. Dearborn, for instance.

    Also- you can’t say “look at all the people sending their kids to Latin.” Latin has- what- 120 kids or so in each class? Latin is irrelevant to the majority fo the population.

    My point is- that in truly “urban” cities- parents will sacrifice space to raise their kids there. Why else don’t NY’ers simply move to the suburbs and buy the split-level as well? Many of them don’t. Heck, I have a friend there raising her daughter in a 2/1 on the upper west side that is just 1000 square feet. She thinks nothing of it. I don’t know anyone in the Greenzone doing the same. We are not “urban” in that way here.

    Sonies, how many kids being raised in your building?

    Anyone else have any kids being raised in their river north high rise? Not saying theren’t a few- as there were 3 kids being raised in a loft building I lived in once- but they were the only ones out of 240 units.

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  48. I liked having everyone move to the Northern Suburbs!

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  49. Elementary school options are relatively abundant for city dwellers (compared to years past) but are severely curtailed for junior high and high school – unless you 1) have clout or low enough income to get into a magnet; 2) are willing to pay dearly for private schools.

    Many people just make the move sooner rather than later. Why wait until the oldest is in 7th grade to move to the suburbs?

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  50. Sabrina: I am raising three kids in 1400-1500 square feet in the green zone. I know *many* people who are doing the same. And many are doing this in condos. This *is* my demographic.

    As evidence of this, consider the growth of Old Saint Mary’s School in the South Loop. (I realize that many CC’ers would only consider public or private schools and I know all CC’ers hate the south loop but I include this example as evidence of the growth of families in the area.) This school was formed in 2004. The Archdiocese of Chicago has just committed 12 million dollars for new school to be built–the first new Archdiocesan grammar school in years. The school will be finished in August. Whatever else one might say about the Archidocese, they are smart business people. They gave the parish 12 million dollars to build a new school (at a time when many other Catholic schools are closing) only because of demographics. That is, they saw that there were so many families who were choosing to live with less space in the South loop and desired an alternative to CPS. (BTW: the tuition, at 8,000 per year, is far less than private schools like Latin, Parker or Lab).

    One more thing: I think that one reason behind the growing interest in urban living with families is the increasing number of women with high-power jobs who still want to spend time with their kids. These women realize that their self worth is not tied up in the size of their house. They gladly trade a smaller house for a shorter commute and thus more time with their families and a better quality of life.

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  51. Endora- maybe everyone is “stuck” there?

    I know someone also in the south loop with a child and has been trying to sell to move to the suburbs for 2 years now. It’s not going to happen (not without a short sale/foreclosure.) He’s underwater by like 40%. He has a 3-bedroom 1700 square foot condo. Maybe he will just end up staying there and doing the Catholic Schools or South Loop Elementary? (not sure if he is in that district or not.)

    How many are “choosing” this option though? Maybe you are one of the few who thought “I’m going to buy a 1400 square foot condo in the south loop and raise all my kids there for the next 10 to 20 years.”

    It’s just not something that is common in Chicago- compared to NY and a few other US cities. But in many parts of Europe- it is the norm.

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  52. Sabrina: I see what you are saying. And I think it maybe is something about which intelligent people have to agree to disagree. Certainly, some people feel ‘stuck’ in smallish condos with kids and desire to move out to the suburbs. But others recognize all of the advantages that smaller, urban living can include, not the least of which is a less materialist, less consumerist lifestyle. Which of these groups is more representative of the majority is difficult to determine. I could point to lots of people who choose this lifestyle; you could likely point to many who are ‘stuck’ in it. But whatever the motivation, it is happening.

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  53. danny (lower case D) on January 1st, 2011 at 12:47 pm

    The Park District and the CPS needs to greatly improve the infrastructure for youth athletics. There was a Chicago Reader article a few years ago about track athletes at Lane Tech having to run in the hallways, because there was no indoor track facility on the north side.

    The Olympics pipe dream is over (thank goodness), so none of those structures will be built. Instead there should be new capital programs to build at least one properly sized and equipped track facility and natatorium on the north side and one on south side.

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  54. Endora- I’m not saying that you’re not right. My whole argument was that Chicago is simply not an “urban” city like NY is. That doesn’t mean some people aren’t raising their kids in condos, of course. But it really isn’t the norm here. It’s not the culture. Maybe the housing bust will push people into doing it and it WILL become the norm here. I don’t see why some people have to move out of their condos in the best school districts like Blaine or Lincoln Park Elementary after all. Maybe they will stay put.

    If it was the Chicago culture- there would be a school in the Lakeshore East development (which was originally planned for but still says is “proposed” on Magellan’s website all these years later.) There are 6,000 new units there! Does anyone believe a school will ever be built there (or is needed?) Maybe we’ll eventually see one there if the culture changes.

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  55. Mike HG,

    We only delete comments if they’re obscene or from someone pretending to be someone they’re not and praising their own project or panning a competitor’s.

    We have banned commenters who insisted on wasting everyone’s time with their racism or their ignorance after repeated warnings. Several of them later became CribChatter regulars.

    We haven’t had to ban anyone recently, but we have suggested to a number of people that they remove their sorry acts to CribChatter.

    We have banned a number of advertisers from our site because we don’t like their business ethics.

    We’ll bring you more 235 Van Buren buyer videos this year. If you can laugh at successful people simply because of where they choose to buy, then you have a perverted sense of humor and no sense of decency. I hope the new year brings you more genuine happiness than your past ones have.

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  56. By ‘we’ you really mean ‘you’.

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  57. “We” means “we,” homedelete. You can look it up.

    We (in this instance meaning I) wish you a happy new year.

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  58. “Sonies, how many kids being raised in your building?”

    probably about 10 or so kids /160 units young building though

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  59. I guess nobody’s talking about Astoria anymore, but these prices are pretty good. I’m not sure AMLI has ever had a studio for $1010 – their best-priced unit is currently $1268 for a 497sf unit facing west toward the tracks. And Astoria is taking a month free off the $1,010 price. I also like the 1-bedroom price at $1,126 w/ a month free, but it looks like those are pretty small. These should move.

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  60. Mike,

    You might be right–I recall it being below $1,100 in any case & this article confirms it:

    http://smoking-quit.info/no-smoking-strategy

    It appears they are trying a price increase lately and we’ll have to see how well that will stick.

    As far as JZ’s site what a laugh: I can never recall any regular appearing here after being banned there. If he was referring to me he was sorely mistaken–I was a regular here first and only found out about his site from the link on the right.

    In my instance JZ banned me for “racism” for praising the demolition of one of the Cabrini midrises (412 W Chicago, to be exact) and saying losing one of those bastions of intergenerational poverty was welcomed. Only in Joe Zekas’ world of paranoia does that equate to racism. But know what really equates to racism or any other negative in Joey’s mind? Those who disagree with him, especially with regard to housing.

    His site very carefully controls the dissemination of information and opinions–he has to, lest prospective buyers be warned of the difficulties awaiting them for buying in this environment.

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  61. yo bob, try that link again.
    I already quit smoking years ago, anyway!
    🙂

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  62. The main reason we banned you, Bob, was that you were such a tiresome and unskilled liar. And for racial comments that go far beyond the distorted version you just presented. We ignored your being a pompous fool, as many of the people here apparently do also.

    Anyone can see that our Chicago Real Estate News page links to articles from 100s of local, regional and national news sources – including, on occasion, to CribChatter – and that a great many, if not most of those articles present negative news and opinions on housing.

    http://yochicago.com/chicago-real-estate-news/

    We believe our readers would rather read negative opinions from a wide variety of knowledgeable identified sources rather than from a small cabal of anonymous commenters.

    We’ve written many posts on the fate of the housing market, on individual troubled developments and bad industry practices. We can do that from a base of knowledge rather than from the raw, unprincipled attitude that accounts for so much of the chatter here.

    We’ve had quite a few comments from individuals who’ve been screwed over by developers and trapped in troubled developments. Funny, but you don’t see those people posting on CribChatter, perhaps because they know how ugly the response can be here.

    We’ve had groups of disgruntled buyers use YoChicago a means of finding each other and banding together to take action against developers. We’ve facilitated that in some instances. Has anyone ever seen anything like that occur on CribChatter?

    If there’s a site that “very carefully controls the dissemination of information and opinions” about real estate in Chicago, it’s CribChatter. Just look at the many vicious responses here to anyone who dares to say anything positive about developers or the real estate industry.

    I realize that a number of CCers would prefer that I not be here, and I’d prefer not to be here. So, Bob, respect their wishes and mine, and put a lid on the cheap shots.

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  63. Ah good old Europe. It’s a big place, with a lot of countries and a lot of cultures. You can’t make such sweeping generalizations about how people live. Even within a single country there can be several different attitudes towards child-rearing and home-buying. My husband and I grew up 50 miles apart in our European home country and while I love city life and condos and hustle bustle, he likes SFHs in quiet suburbs with lots of space.

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  64. I enjoy reading the many different views on this site. I hope no one believes all that they read or believes some of the personalities that write. Blogs, like radio talk shows give people a chance to express opinions, some that you agree with and other that you don’t.

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  65. I agree with dd. It’s fun and interesting to read the comments on this site that reflect all sorts of varying views and opinions.

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  66. Agree with dd & David. For my opinion I’ll disagree with Sabrina’s assessment of raising kids in NYC (which I read as Manhattan). I’m in NYC almost as often as I’m in Chicago; colleagues and friends who have kids nearly unilaterally move out of Manhattan when it comes time to school, or too many (2-3) to be able to afford private schooling. So many choose this route that it’s encoded in the taxation schemes – such as if you work a day in NYC, you owe NYC tax even if you live out of NY. Out of a sample size of 60 families all in the same profession/same company (so bear in mind similar occupations and compensation), less than 10 live on Manhattan.

    I can think of one outlier friend who rued the day his 3rd came along, which forced the family out of their Manhattan 1,200 sqf 2/1 to Jersey. Schooling was the reason. He’s the outlier only because his older two were school aged rather than toddler before the move. The other move seems to be to Brooklyn where you start having the same travel times to Manhattan as if you’d just hop out to a ferry ‘burb, and are less dense living.

    Just as you have for Chicago, I’ve excluded the people I’ve met that are in the private school route, though I only know a few. For Europe my experience is limited to London, Cambridge, and Frankfort – and I’ll agree that people raising kids there are almost unilaterally in smaller places than we discuss here, but the majority are also not in the city centres. Single or young, yes, then move farther out to a ring area.

    My observations from the people I’ve met, and I feel that this discussion (and crib chatter!) is a global truth. Crib Chatter goes global – top topic 2011.

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  67. “You can’t make such sweeping generalizations about how people live.”

    Why I laugh at these so called foreign country experts, whose experience there might be as little as foreign exchange study/a short expat stint & liking to vacay there. Suburban & rural areas of many euro countries share very similar values with suburban & rural areas of the US, respectively.

    These idiot Americans who think that them going to visit big cities in Europe and extrapolate that to the rest think that gives them some kind of authority to speak about these cultures being “so much better” I find humorous.

    I am no expert on Europe, but I have talked to quite a few immigrants from Europe here in Chicago (okay I admit 80% Polaks), but these first generation immigrants are in love with America. They never b_tch about the cold in Chicago in the winter either, despite it being substantially colder than home country. That should tell you something.

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  68. “We’ve written many posts on the fate of the housing market, on individual troubled developments and bad industry practices.”

    When?

    AFTER the bust?

    3 years ago, Joe, you banned anyone from your site who was a housing bear- including Pete and several others who found Crib Chatter not long afterwards. They were all WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Prices could NOT decline- because you, Joe Zekas, said so. Remember all the first year lawyers who were going to prop up the downtown market? (an argument you actually made in 2007 on yochicago.)

    It is laughable now.

    But obviously your clients couldn’t have you posting about the housing bubble or that, gasp, the good times wouldn’t last forever. That I understand. But don’t now try to say you paint an honest picture of the market. Your clients would never (and will never) allow it.

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  69. Sabrina – you bring up my favorite joke-argument….All these first year lawyers who make bazillions (orsometimes you can call them Finance people) will prop up the market. Never mind that some of these firms haven brought a class in in years, lol

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  70. What’s laughable, Sabrina, is your lame effort to lie about my record.

    Let me start by giving CribChatterers the opportunity to read what I actually said about first-year attorneys rather than your dishonest characterization of what I said:

    http://yochicago.com/a-challenge-to-the-bubble-babblers/5526/

    No one has ever been banned from YoChicago simply for being a bear. The post I linked includes comments from a number of bears, and was occasioned by previous bear growling. I joined the ranks of the bears when the facts supported doing so.

    Pete was an abusive know-nothing with multiple identities who yammered away with no evidence of anything local and thought that sarcasm was the same as facts. Pete also had a bias against black people. Here’s a typical Pete comment:

    “Lack of funds isn’t the issue with Lawndale, Inglewood, Back of the Yards, etc. Its the people. As long as these neighborhoods are terrorized by low class ghetto trash, all the money in the world will not make them a viable place to live. When a white person can move in and walk to the corner store and come back alive and with their wallet intact, then these neighborhoods might have a chance.”

    You might have a tolerance for that kind of talk. I don’t.

    In any event, “Pete” continued to comment under various guises until March of 2009.

    Since you’ve claimed that I said prices could not decline you should back that up with even a single post or comment in which I said that. That’s what anyone who cares about honesty would do, Sabrina.

    You obviously know nothing about my clients, or about me. I’ve run print publications about real estate from 1987 until two years ago, when we closed the last one. We ran far more negative stories than you ever have. We lost advertisers over some of them, but kept the ones who know that you don’t gain an audience without painting an honest picture. There are companies who won’t advertise with us because of our independence. Your assumptions about my clients are sheer ignorance, and nothing else.

    We show a far more comprehensive set of views on the market than you do, Sabrina – far more comprehensive, and therefore far more honest.

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  71. increased prices for 2011 on January 2nd, 2011 at 6:19 pm

    didn’t the studios start at 899 before new year’s?

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  72. “Let me start by giving CribChatterers the opportunity to read what I actually said about first-year attorneys rather than your dishonest characterization of what I said:”

    That link has nothing to do with the “discussion” that was on your site in 2007. In fact, it has nothing to do with first year lawyers. On several posts about all the new construction 2 bedrooms for $500,000 in 2007, when a bear would post that the prices couldn’t be sustained, you kept arguing that the downtown condo market would be fine because there were hundreds of newly minted $150,000 attorneys who all would be buying them up. Those who argued against you were told they were “wrong” and didn’t know the “facts.” Sound familiar?

    Oh- and that link is also hilarious in that it shows how wrong you were in 2007. You actually argued that the population increase which was supposed to come in Chicago supported the thousands of new units being built (when the bubble arguers said otherwise).

    ha!

    Laughable.

    We have both the bears and the bulls on Cribchatter. I like the discussion on both sides here. Sure, the bubble has burst. But now a lot of buyers are getting in at lower prices- which is great for them. Housing is getting more affordable. It sucks for current owners though, and that is a big part of the story.

    This is an unprecedented event in our lifetimes. We will never see a housing bust like this one ever again. I’m glad everyone on this site has a chance to discuss it – no matter what their viewpoints are.

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  73. It’s extremely rude to barge into someone’s home and bash the host. Have you no shame, Joe Zekas? Have you no shame? Were you raised with no manners? You should know better than this.

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  74. Sabrina,

    The ongoing problem you have is that people can read the factual record and compare it what you say about it.

    The link has nothing to do with first-year lawyers? What about this comment?

    “The starting salary at most of the large law firms in Chicago today is $160k. Graduates of top MBA programs often command more, straight out of school. Cash for a down payment is not a problem for many of these people, from any number of sources. It’s a stretch, as you pointed out, for some.”

    This post may be the discussion you’re referring to.

    http://yochicago.com/city-new-home-sales-have-slowed-but-no-bubble-on-horizon/4127/

    What I said, in response to people who were babbling on about the supply side of the housing market, and who were clueless about how many people make how much money, was that they also needed to look at the demand side.

    Pointing out that there was sufficient purchasing power and numbers to absorb the new units was not the same as predicting those units would be absorbed. Pointing out that household formations were a positive factor is not the same as predicting the units would be absorbed

    In fact, I said “There may or may not be a bubble developing, but you can’t tell that just from looking at the supply side.”

    Commenters on my site were flat-out wrong about the amount of purchasing power and oblivious to the amount of cash that was being pumped into deals from savings, gifts, bonuses, trust funds, inheritances, etc. Your chatterers obsess over the over-leveraged. I wonder if they even know that some of the people I see exist, like the New Yorker I met in Winnetka recently who was looking to buy – for cash – $2.5M to $3M homes in Winnetka as gifts for each of her two children.

    If you think it’s laughable to look at the facts on both sides of an issue, Sabrina, then that says far more about you than it does about me.

    You also need to put that post in this context: the downtown Chicago market had just come off a banner year in new home sales, as reported by Appraisal Research Counselors.

    I challenge you again to link to a post where I said the market would be fine or that prices could not decline. I’ve been around this business far too long, have seen far too many ups and downs, and know far too little, to make those kinds of predictions. When it comes to predictions, I’ll defer to your superior wisdom.

    When you say this bust is unprecedented in our lifetimes, I assume you’re addressing an audience that’s younger than me. It’s not unprecedented in my lifetime. The bust of the early 80s resulted in greater declines in sales volumes in the city than the current one. And prices in some lakefront neighborhoods declined further than prices have thus far in lakefront neighborhoods.

    I’m looking forward to your cites, Sabrina.

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  75. homedelete,

    I simply note that Sabrina started this discussion with dishonest remarks about my site. That’s not barging in, that’s responding to an invitation.

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  76. Stop it Joe. You’re arguing that the early 1980s were worse than this bust? Please. Get a grip already.

    This bust is unprecedented in nature and scope except for the bust during the Great Depression where some areas of the country saw an 80% decline (yes- that is correct) in prices. Foreclosures were about 20% which weren’t not even close to approaching.

    Were single family homes in Kenilworth seeing 50% drops in the early 1980s Joe? Yeah- there was a condo bust in the late 1970s/early 1980s that actually didn’t see prices recover for like 15 to 20 years. We’ve discussed this on this site in the past (and I posted Crain’s excellent reminder coverage of it a few years ago.) But in no way did it affect single family homes and it certainly didn’t crush the suburbs or the outlying neighborhoods of Chicago.

    In fact, some Chicago suburbs had never seen declining housing prices in the past 30 years before this bust (though some agents have told me that prices were flat for about 6 years in the mid 1980s. That’s the closest they got to actually declining.)

    So- yes- this will be the worst bust any of us will ever experience in our lifetime (unless some of us live another 70 or 80 years wherein it will probably be repeated again with the same cheap credit/over leveraging as most asset bubbles- which seem to move in cycles.)

    I’m also tired of hearing about all the “wealth” that is out there. That is 1% of all the buyers. I like to focus on the rest of Chicago that doesn’t get money from the bank of mommy and daddy or the family trust or whatever else. I like to focus on those two professional wage earners who earn $150,000 a year but have school loans, credit card debt and difficulty saving for the down payment. They might be able to get into decent housing that won’t take up more than 25% of their income thanks to this bust. (Not to mention the homebuyer who makes a middle class income of, say, $70,000. Now they can buy much more home than they every dreamed possible.) Hooray for them. Living the American Dream.

    Go spend time with your rich friends Joe. They are NOT the market. Everyone else is trying to get affordable housing in a neighborhood they love.

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  77. Hey Joe, by the way, are you telling all those homeowners you videotape in various new construction high rise buildings that this is like the early 1980s bust (you know, extending your wisdom to them) and that, oh, by the way, it will probably take them 15 to 20 years to break even on their purchase?

    Just like it did for those in the John Hancock, just one example, whose original owners told crain’s it was a “bloodbath” and it took them that long just to break even? Bought in the late 1970s and didn’t break even (let alone make anything) until 1994 and later?

    Just wondering.

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  78. I’m still waiting for the cites to back up your claims, Sabrina.

    You may have discussed the condo bust of the late 70s/early 80s on this site and posted a link to Crain’s about it. I documented the decline in lakefront neighborhoods from 1979 to 1992, year by year, unit type by unit type, neighborhood by neighborhood, and published the results in a book. We’ve written about those numbers from time to time on YoChicago.

    The boom / bust of that period wasn’t limited to condos, despite your assertion that it was.

    The 50% off sale you cite in Kenilworth isn’t the only one. I wrote about another home there that had been listed for $2M and sold for $910K. We saw similar isolated instances in Kenilworth in the early 80s. The Kenilworth market didn’t decline by 50% then, and it hasn’t declined by 50% now.

    http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/homeward-bound-north-shore/2010/04/a-kenilworth-market-update—prices-fall-homes-sell.html

    Chicago suburbs have seen several periods of decline during the past 30 years.

    This was a nice tear you’ve gone off on, Sabrina. Where are the links to back up the dishonest claims you’ve made about my site?

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  79. Attitude is no substitute for homework and facts, Sabrina.

    We’ve posted repeatedly on the length of time it took to recover from the late 70s / early 80s crash. Here’s one example:

    http://yochicago.com/edgewater-and-rogers-park-a-long-time-gone/14301/

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  80. Are you trying to refute Sabrina or are you simply trying to drive traffic to your site? You’re posting an awful lot of links to yo-chicago.com.

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  81. I’m challenging Sabrina to cite proof for his / her remarks – and letting CCers see for themselves how invalid they are.

    If I were looking to drive traffic, there are a lot of places that would be a better use of my time.

    Chicago Curbed sends 10 times as much trafic our way as CribChatter does. Crain’s is a firehose of traffic from a relevant comment. Facebook and Twitter are good traffic sources.

    From a traffic standpoint, CribChatter is a waste of my time.

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  82. Sabrina – no matter what any competing “bloggers” say, your site is awesome. As a recent buyer, I shudder to think what could have happened to me had my first foray into Chicago RE blogs been onto a certain unnamed competing real estate blogvertisement where there is no discussion of important topics like “getting CMKed” or “American InvsKO’d.” I probably would have bought at 235 Van Buren for $300 off the peak price and thought I was striking the sale of the century. The transparency and insight you and your readers offer to market participants is, notwithstanding quite a few discussions that make Malthus look upbeat, pretty valuable. You’re a saint.

    PermaBear top Chicago blogs 2010:
    1) Cribchatter
    2) Second City Cop

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  83. “I joined the ranks of the bears when the facts supported doing so.”

    What were the facts that supported doing so? And were they foreseeable (as a general matter, not in every detail)?

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  84. Dan,

    Thanks for volunteering one of the prime reasons you were banned at YoChicago.

    My DNA has a commitment to fair housing and equality under the law deeply woven into it. That’s a commitment that will never be dated.

    I’m nauseated by the likes of you and Bob, and wonder why Sabrina tolerates you.

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  85. I have read (or tried to read) Joe’s site but it was as if I were watching on incredibly long (and boring) informercial for cheap, low quality buildings (235 Van Buren) and inexperienced, easily persuaded people who bought his bag of BS.
    His many BORING youtube videos of unfinished units..which are easier to sell to inexperienced buyers as units without fixed walls and zero appliances made them look spacious. Even though the majority of places I am in daily are not finished, I am a professional who is able to envision (then make into a reality) what will end up being a livable unit.
    He pushes these unfinished units as though he were being paid well by the unscruplous buyers…which I am sure he is. Satisfied 235 buyers? Yeah right! 10 foot wide living rooms and those tiny unusable spaces? You have got to be kidding me right? There is no way any of their unsold units would be able to be logically combined ( a speciality of my company) to make a sizable and livable unit….no way.
    So Joe, instead of showing how guilable you believe the general everyday buying public is how about you take on some new construction buildings that ARE complete…then see if qualified buyers really are interested in buying.
    And no…clio listen too….there is not an unending population of wealthy people ready to pounce on high dollar units here in Chicago. NYC maybe, but certainly not this city.
    Go away Joe and keep accepting kick backs for broadcasting exaggerated claims of people who (are paid?) to say they like these crappy low quality buildings. The regular readers of CC know better than to be fooled by unscruplous people like you….people I thought would be banished from this industy when the market started to crash and falsely inflated condos meant nothing….to anyone rich…or not.

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  86. Sabrina, your site has been extremely helpful, and I would be in a financial pit for the next ten years had I been fooled into buying a place in the city this past year. I now know what to look for when buying with regards to taxes, assessments, condo boards, mortgage rates, mortgage types, safe neighborhoods, etc. and, why right now is not the time for me to buy. Thank You

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  87. ummm, yeah, i would rather argue endlessly and be accused of wasting my employers time by Joe Z than have to sit by and try to avoid a random Dan dark ugly rant/whine fest.

    seriously how is Dan not banned or 80% of his posts not deleted?

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  88. I’m fascinated by the similarity of their propogandizing.

    Free speech for all.

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  89. “Free speech for all.”

    free speech for the owner of this wonderful website, screw the random internet posters.

    “I’m fascinated by the similarity of their propogandizing”

    are they BOTH paid to be “that way”?

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  90. “From a traffic standpoint, CribChatter is a waste of my time.”

    Joe- then why do you come here and waste your time with this pathetic little site?

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  91. “seriously how is Dan not banned or 80% of his posts not deleted?”

    I DO delete 80% of his posts!

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  92. “I DO delete 80% of his posts!”

    i dont know if either i should laugh or be sad.

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  93. Sabrina,

    It’s obvious why I’m here. To defend myself and my site and my clients against lies and misinformation from you and other CCers.

    In this thread I responded to a lie from Mike HG. Bob chimed in with his lies. I responded, and tried to depart by saying:

    “I realize that a number of CCers would prefer that I not be here, and I’d prefer not to be here. So, Bob, respect their wishes and mine, and put a lid on the cheap shots.”

    You, Sabrina, then chimed in with your set of dishonest remarks about my site.

    I’ve repeatedly challenged you in this thread to cite any post on my site that backs up your scurrilous charges. You repeatedly duck that challenge.

    When you make accusations, Sabrina, you undertake a responsibility to back them up or admit error when challenged. Do one or the other instead of continuing to duck and hide behind snide remarks.

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  94. LOL. See what I mean?

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  95. “LOL. See what I mean?”

    yes i do, LOL

    i do find one more entertaining than the other. you would be surprised by which one.

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  96. LOL. Propogandists: They. Just. Can’t. Help. Themselves.

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  97. “Elementary school options are relatively abundant for city dwellers (compared to years past) but are severely curtailed for junior high and high school”

    Yes, Junior High options in CPS are *severely* curtailed, being almost exclusively pre-Young/pre-IB or warehouses for troubled yutes.

    HD–in the city, 6/7/8 is “elementary” and 9 is HS–there is no middle/junior level, in the vast, vast majority of cases.

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  98. “In this thread I responded to a lie from Mike HG.”
    ———
    “I love how this post can actually get comments but the same post on yochicgo has none becuase crazy old Joe zekas will delete them or defend his sponsorship till his death.”
    ———-

    Joe, at what point did I lie? You’ve even said in the past that you will delete bad or mean spirited comments towards the post or a sponsor. And we all know how you defend to the death your sponsors by insulting others and being mean spirited in return.

    Oh, and when are we going to be treated to another “why I bought at 235 van buren”

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  99. Mike, it is “Why I REGRET WHAT I bought at 235 Van Buren” I fixed it for you.

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  100. I missed this over the weekend. Joe Zekas, wow, you are one giant bag.

    easy to be right all the time when you talk out of both sides of your mouth. why can’t the little people understand that?

    and this:

    “If there’s a site that “very carefully controls the dissemination of information and opinions” about real estate in Chicago, it’s CribChatter.”

    Sabrina, you should’ve realized you were arguing with a delusional, self-absorbed liar when he typed this whopper.

    p.s. keep up the good work in 2011. here, I can have an opinion. on YoChicago, I’m accused of being a racist with questionable motives.
    of course, on YoChicago, AmericanInvsco is a reputable developer so take it with a grain of salt.

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  101. Irving Park was a 6/7/8 before it was turned into Disney II.

    In my mind I’ll still think of 7/8 as jr high because that’s where the really really bad kids found drugs, the opposite sex, truancy, petty theft, etc. Kids are kids in my opinion up until about 5th or 6th grade. Beyond that they’re young adults.

    “HD–in the city, 6/7/8 is “elementary” and 9 is HS–there is no middle/junior level, in the vast, vast majority of cases.”

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  102. “Irving Park was a 6/7/8 before it was turned into Disney II.”

    Yes, and it was a warehouse for troubled yutes.

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  103. Isn’t 90% of CPS just a warehouse for troubled yutes? I mean, really?

    “Yes, and it was a warehouse for troubled yutes.”

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  104. “Isn’t 90% of CPS just a warehouse for troubled yutes? I mean, really?”

    No, but taking your point, imagine what most of (very few) the JHs (non-IB, non-WY) are like in that context.

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  105. Mike HG,

    Read my earlier answer. You misrepresented my comment deletion policy. And failed to note that there were comments on the post in which we reported on Astoria’s sale several days prior to CC’s having done so.

    And you just did it again. Our comment policy is a lot more nuanced than you claim. You’ll find a lot of negative comments about individual developers, because that’s part of being in this business. We come down hard on anyone who takes a cheap shot at a home seller or buyer.

    old hickory,

    Anyone who’s followed my site knows I don’t hold American Invsco in much regard. But even they deserve a defense on occasion against the kind of unknowing crap that gets thrown around here.

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  106. Joe lied in this thread when he tried to misrepresent his website as anything but a cheerleading website for developers. There was never any mention of a bubble prior to late 2009 and any commenters who tried to bring it up were promptly banned.

    Joey is engaging in some soviet style revisionist history over on yochicago, now backpedaling to try to create some reputation as a fair presenter of the current situation by postings links about the bust.

    My favorite one of the developers he shilled for was Lexington Park, whose highrise got flooded due to incompetence after the developer couldn’t meet sales goals and neglected to take care of required maintenance. LOL.

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  107. Can I get some popcorn in here? Watching Joe try to defend himself is the most entertaining morning I’ve had at work in a while. Go Team Sabrina!

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  108. Bob,

    The many 100s of bubble stories we linked to over the years were hiding the bubble? Even you don’t believe that.

    We published sponsored posts for Lexington Park over two years ago in connection with a print ad buy. Since that time we facilitated buyers there recovering their money. Here’s one extensive comment thread on the topic from last May:

    http://yochicago.com/crains-lender-takes-over-lexington-park-condominiums/15307/

    That flooding you refer to? We’re the ones who reported it, following an e-mail tip. Is there no limit to your lies?

    In case you’re not aware of it we currently represent the Lexington Park townhomes in Des Plaines – a different developer.

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  109. STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.

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  110. “All of you who value CribChatter should be wondering just how quickly this site would implode if the Chicago Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights under Law ever took a hard look at the very ugly bias that’s being facilitated here. ”

    Are you suggesting that posting stupid stuff in the comments here has an effect on fair housing issues? Really?

    No, seriously. Really?

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  111. My suggestion was unambiguous.

    Pose your question to the attorneys at the Lawyers Committee and see what answer you get.

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  112. “Pose your question to the attorneys at the Lawyers Committee and see what answer you get.”

    They could find a problem with most of your developer clients, too. “Lawyers Committee on Issue X” have an expertise in finding a colorable claim of Issue X in a bowl of breakfast cereal.

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  113. STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS
    STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS

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  114. My vote for biggest story in 2011 is that Joe Z will replace Clio as the most universally attacked poster on Crib Chatter! It’s your time to shine Joe. Don’t take the opportunity lightly!

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  115. It’s ridiculous, I’m sorry for feeding him. He shouldn’t come here and call others racists when he does business with them himself. Hypocrite!!! I never got banned from JoeZ’s site, that’s a lie. I only learned about it from this site. My first experience with Joe Zekas is when I told him about how when Belgravia was knocking down the Como In to build Via Como, how the development manager of the project (asking for a variance) told the community group point-blank that the Italianate building at the SW corner of Milwaukee and Ohio would be saved. They knocked it down. Joe Zekas accused me of lying, when it was the Belgravia company that either lied openly, or didn’t follow through with their promise.

    Joe Zekas personifies the tyranny that we must fight against as honest Americans, it’ll be a great day for humanity and America when he and people of his ilk retire and are put out to pasture. His views and rabid intolerance for others’ views are open for all to see:

    “Chicago Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights under Law ever took a hard look at the very ugly bias that’s being facilitated here.”

    Joe: not taking you to task for calling others racist, when you openly associate with them yourself, would be dishonest and immoral — so good people must stand up to you. You have no business talking about racism, etc. when you accept money and do business with those that support it. Did you do business with people who supported apartheid in the 1980’s? Then why do you do it now? hypocrite.

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  116. THIS THREAD IS NOW LOCKED.

    NO MORE POSTS ALLOWED. TROLLS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE THREAD.

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  117. THIS THREAD IS NOW LOCKED.

    NO MORE POSTS ALLOWED. TROLLS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE THREAD .

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  118. “THIS THREAD IS NOW LOCKED.

    NO MORE POSTS ALLOWED. TROLLS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE THREAD.”

    Now, HD, you shouldn’t talk about yourself like that.

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  119. “I told him about how when Belgravia was knocking down the Como In to build Via Como”

    i need to make a call about this but back when my mom was a teen, if the como inn had banquets, she was a banquet waitress there.

    or her and my dad would go on dates there when my pops was courting her.

    dang you belgravia for taking away my family history the i vaguely remember and most likely have completely wrong. dang you

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  120. Ah Joe Zekas, the corporate mouthpiece, probably one of the ilk who thought that allowing corporations to contribute to political campaigns was a “fantastic” idea

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  121. Belgravia bought the property fair and square from the seller, but I specifically recall the community meeting promise. If Joe Zekas was honest he’d follow up, because I told him that the development manager for Belgravia (who did the presentation and made the promise) was a younger guy, (not Alan Lev) who had curly hair, I can’t recall him name. If Joe Zekas would do the follow-up with his client, he’d see that I am accurately describing the development manager for this deal…..why would anyone make this crap up Joe??? Are you accusing me of making it up again? Incredible.

    PS Let’s all ask the Chicago Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights chair what is his position on racism and West Bank settlements. Anyone want to bet the “chair” of this org holds a duplicitous position? I’ll take any and all bets.

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  122. Nice pissing match

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  123. Harbor resentments toward demographic groups? A CN shower? Nice group you’ve cultivated here, Sabrina.

    In any event, I survived a few of those during my days in Madison. The Madison police and National Guard were really adept at mixing CS and CN drops to keep everyone off balance.

    On to the subject at hand …

    Sabrina gratuitously went on the attack after I tried to withdraw from this thread.

    Sabrina made a number of charges, and has provided no evidence to back them up, despite repeated challenges. I’ve characterized those charges as dishonest, and invite anyone at CC to back up the allegations that Sabrina made since she or he is unable to do so.

    When Sabrina suggested we didn’t talk about how long it can take to recover from a bubble I provided direct evidence that we had.

    Most of the regulars here will continue hating on me. Hate is their core competency, and their only one.

    I think there are lurkers here who will recognize that Sabrina and his / her haters are eager to make charges, not so eager to document them – because they simply can’t, and don’t seem to have enough regard for the truth to bother doing so.

    I invite everyone who wonders whether I came here to gain traffic to wonder whether Sabrina and the gang keep bringing up my name as a way to gain traffic for CribChatter.

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  124. Joe,

    You can’t actually be arguing that you denied the bubble longer than most! When I was looking for a condo back in 2007-8, I read both of these blogs. CribChatter was always good for the doomsday scenario, and YoChicago was always good for the “It’s fine!” scenario. I decided the truth was somewhere between the two and ended up closing on a place in July 2008. Guess which scenario ended up playing out…

    I still read Yo and even comment occasionally, but your cheerleading back then has REALLY hurt your credibility. I’m no real estate professional, and I actually think you’re a pretty funny guy, but you have to admit that you were pretty optimistic up until the end.

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  125. I don’t know – sometimes all you have to keep you going is hope – it is very motivating and uplifting. Maybe that is what Joe Z is doing. We should thank him for bringing some positivity and hope into our discussions of real estate – as Mike said, the truth is somewhere inbetween – but I think is much more fun and exciting to feel like you are on a winning team!!

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  126. man,this joe guy can really blow out the hot air.

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  127. No one is forcing you to post here Joe.

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  128. “don’t know – sometimes all you have to keep you going is hope – it is very motivating and uplifting. Maybe that is what Joe Z is doing. ”

    Clio, perhaps you can claim the Roosevelt angle when during the depression he would have his weekly radio addresses and try to instill hope in the people.

    JZ is anything but a benevolent cheerleader: his goal was to enable his advertisers to put as many people into condo ownership as possible via any means possible. Even after the writing was definitely already on the wall for the future direction of RE prices (mid-2008).

    Yes his site has enabled some good (ie: people connecting and organizing from it), I am not denying that and never was.

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  129. Michael,

    Take another look at the record. I don’t believe my position was ever “it’s fine.” Perhaps it came across that way, but I think I confined myself to challenging what I called the “bubble bashers” to prove their case with local informtion.

    Back then I had recently come from years of spending almost 3 months a year in California and seeing first-hand what was clearly a bubble developing, fueled by absolute crazy financing and wholesale fraud. People were citing California and Vegas as proof of what was happening in Chicago, and I wasn’t seeing any similarity at the time.

    Anyone who’s followed what we do knows, I think, that Yo doesn’t make prognostications. We’d much rather report what others are saying than express an opinion on the market.

    What I find the funniest at CribChatter are the folks who say I have zero credibility and – lacking all credibility – have suckered hordes of home buyers into making bad decisions. Huh? How does anyone make sense out of saying that?

    I find the notion that any home buyer makes decisions based solely on what they’ve read on YoChicago as completely laughable. That’s not my experience of how buyers make decisions, and I’ll match the depth and scope and length of my experience with buyrs with anyone here.

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  130. homedelete,

    There are more than enough bad people in the industry out there to trash.

    If people stop gratuitously trashing me and my site and my clients here here, I’ll be gone. Gone.

    Bob,

    Wow. Thanks for recognizing that we’ve helped groups of buyers organize against the interests of developers. How do you square that with the notion that I’m a pure industry shill?

    Will you also recognize that we’ve taken some hard, knowledge-based shots at industry practices and players? How do you square that with the notion that I’m a pure corporate shill?

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  131. “If people stop gratuitously trashing me and my site and my clients here here, I’ll be gone. Gone. ”

    Can we get a comprehensive list of your clients (or a link to one), so we know what the “Seven (or 77) Words You Can’t Say on CC” are?

    TIA!

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  132. joe Z your site is trash, you are nothing more than a corporate sponsored internet troll and propagandist for a bunch of people that would steal your last nickel if they could. We all know this, and anyone who buys into your stupid intertube video shilling deserves all the money that they will inevitably lose in equity.

    now go away!

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  133. Joe Z,

    valid not argumentative off the topic of the back and forth you and Dan got goin on.

    What is the situation at the optima (woods?) condos over by old orchard. i have been seeing more light on these past few months.

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  134. Joe: stop being disruptive and kindly DO NOT put words in other people’s mouths. That’s very distasteful. So, did you buy a unit from Mr. Kaufman? LOL!!! The guy was trying to sell a unit to his videographer while on film!!

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  135. Groove77,

    Building 1 has been sold out for some time. Building 2 may have a very few units left.

    They did a limited-time significant price cut on units in Building 3 and made a couple dozen (I think) sales from that.

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  136. Joe, who is behind Sabrina? The CIA/Mossad/MI4, of course. They’re paying Sabrina as a covert ops to spew hate about real estate. That’s it. She’s not really in Chicago – she’s squirreled away in some underground bunker in the Pentagon taking orders from London and Tel Aviv about how to drive down real estate prices so the Rothschild banking cartel can swoop in and buy all the north shore real estate really cheap. True story, I read it on the internet.

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  137. Building 1 has been sold out for some time. Building 2 has at most, a very few units left. Building 3, as I recall, was about 40% sold before they did a limited-time price cut and sold a couple dozen units as a result.

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  138. Thanks Joe,

    i do notice the side towards the expressway has less lights, but from a friend i heard on a clear day you can get city view that side.

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  139. anon (tfo)

    No one that I’ve seen has identified themselves as such. Don’t you think they would say so given all the history here?

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  140. JZ: “No one that I’ve seen has identified themselves as such. Don’t you think they would say so given all the history here?”

    Probably, but maybe they’re afraid of you tracking them down and making them cry.

    Dan: “Another one of your clients is a racist and I would never buy a unit from someone who holds such views”

    Only someone that shares your biases, right?

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  141. Groove77,

    Here’s the view of the skyline from Optima Old Orchard Woods:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/yochicago1/3614439079/sizes/l/in/set-72157619566509486/

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  142. groove its got a nice views but the highway is a source of a bunch of different pollutants; who knows about his numbers.

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  143. “groove its got a nice views but the highway is a source of a bunch of different pollutants; who knows about his numbers.”

    oh i am not considering it, i just pass it by and now noticing more lights on. i did have a friend view a unit but he ended up buying a condo in evanston instead. he said he felt it was to “fish bowly”.

    i like the idea of the building and a lower floor forest view. but thats crazy ol groove brain

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  144. “Here’s the view of the skyline from Optima Old Orchard Woods:”

    thanks Joe for the pics!

    like i said you provide a darn good product, but muck it up with the grey matter and keyboard.

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  145. Groove77,

    View was from a balcony on the west side of Building 3.

    School bus pickup at the door of each of the buildings, Groove. Bunch of kids there. Great indoor pool. Forest preserve and bike trails across the way. Mrs G can walk the tunnel to Old Orchard.

    Best of all, Holocaust Museum next door so you can visit and say prayers for Dan.

    Optima’s a past client in case anyone wants to make anything of that.

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  146. “Mrs G can walk the tunnel to Old Orchard.”

    shhhh dont say that out loud, she may hear us and i will need to cough up a Down Payment.

    but all realness i am a SFH, DIY, BBQ in yard, sit on front porch swing talk to the neighbors type of guy. Would only do a condo in printers row if i could EASILY afford the ass fee’s.
    with that being said i probably be on the NW side of chicago until i retire.

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  147. “but all realness i am a SFH, DIY, BBQ in yard, sit on front porch swing talk to the neighbors type of guy.”

    Groove, A serious question: Why Chicago then? Do you or Mrs. Groove have jobs and/or family keeping you here? If not, there other great options in this country. If you’re looking for (i) a SFH, (ii) in a diverse city, (iii) with a lot of nice folks, (iv) with a fair amount of cultural offerings, a decent music scene, and lots of good food, and (v) decent corporate and professional job opportunities, I would recommend Atlanta. You can get a great SFH in some of the nicest communities within Atlanta or Decatur for around $600k.

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  148. “Groove, A serious question: Why Chicago then? Do you or Mrs. Groove have jobs and/or family keeping you here?”

    many reasons we are still here and not Iowa or Norway.
    -i work in chicago (wifey homemaker/stay at home mother)
    -our close family in chicago and chicagoland area. inlaws in jeff park parents in dunning
    -my granparents born and raised in chicago parents born and rasied logan square as i born a raised in chicago

    i can name 100 other reasons why i love it here but the real MAIN reasons are above.
    -i value commute in minutes not hours
    -i have tad of weird chicago devotion
    -good friend has a dance company here we are involved with and support
    -kids god parents in rodgers park

    add to the that amazing free stuff to do plus a great cultural scene and with daley making the theater scene on par if not above other cities just below Broadway and london.

    dining here i will say and you can argue it, is so superior to any other us city. some will have 1 or two top places but we can run the range from top hotdog place to plenty indian places to many ethiopian to the rick bayless block.

    i can gush more but i have nature on call waiting.

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  149. –off topic “Chicago as a place to live” question–

    Groove,

    I hear similar comments from native Chicagoans about dining, and compared to NY and Philly where I have lived in the past, it seems on par. I feel like I’m missing something somewhere! Just sub out Hot Dogs for Hoagies, and Rick Bayless for Morimoto or Steven Starr, and the Chicago dining scene I’ve experienced is very similar to Philadelphia. What are your favorite spots in Chicago?
    That’s a testament to both cities, btw. I like a good gastropubs if that helps.

    As for amenities, I think it is pretty damn hard to beat Chicago in the summer. Grant Park is just really frikkin cool, though I would say central park > lincoln park > fairmount park.

    I definitely harbor an east coast bias, (sports, proximity of one city to another), but I really want to get to know Chicago better before we decide (in June) if we stay here or leave in 2012.

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  150. “I like a good gastropubs if that helps.”

    Not all strictly gastropubs, but some options along those lines: Longman and Eagle, Owen and Engine, Publican, Purple Pig, Avec, Mercat a la Planxa. There’s also Girl and Goat, which I have not been to.

    I don’t know that Chicago is better than (or even really on par with) NYC but it’s plenty good enough.

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  151. “I don’t know that Chicago is better than (or even really on par with) NYC but it’s plenty good enough.”

    Depends how one defines things.

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  152. “Depends how one defines things.”

    Chicago trails significantly in Asian (certainly Chinese and Japanese, probably Korean too although not sure), which I tend to overweight. What’s Chicago better in? Sure, if you want a beef, but what else? Probably Mexican, maybe Thai, maybe Polish I suppose. Not in higher end dining (although there is Alinea, which I don’t care for that much) or fancy new american. Not French, not delis, not Italian, not Indian. Don’t get me started on pizza.

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  153. Chicago has terrific food options. I’m not getting you, DZ.
    We’ve got some fantastic rib places, some great steak places, some burger joints that will knock you off your feet. Chicago is a meat-eating town, IMO.
    What about Argyle street for Vietnamese, and Lawrence Ave (Koreatown) for Korean? Chinatown? Japanese only seems to be represented by sushi places, but we’re not lacking them in number.
    Hot dogs; Chicago Style. Beef; Italian.
    Where have you been eating, and how are you branching out?

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  154. “Chicago trails significantly in Asian (certainly Chinese and Japanese, probably Korean too although not sure), which I tend to overweight. What’s Chicago better in?”

    Chicago holds its own domestically according to the Michelin rankings.

    For the most prestigious 3 star restaurants (only 81 in the world):

    SF: 3
    NY: 5
    Chicago: 3

    For 2 stars:

    SF: 3
    NY: 10
    Chicago: 3

    For 1 star:

    SF: 37
    NY: 42
    Chicago: 18

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  155. “Chicago has terrific food options. I’m not getting you, DZ.”

    First of all, I said I was perfectly happy with eating options in Chicago and we eat out a lot (or used to before kid). I’m happy to eat here the rest of my life. We go almost everywhere. I just don’t think it’s better than NYC as claimed, and think in fact that NYC has significant edge.

    Take Japanese. I don’t think anyone could seriously dispute that sushi (esp high end), izakaya, ramen, soba places are better in NYC (and some of those don’t really exist in Chicago.

    Take Chinese. Just about everything is better in NYC (manhattan and flushing Chinatowns). Happy to discuss specifics of this or Japanese but I don’t think there can be any serious debate.

    Sure you can get great steak here, but I don’t see it as better than NYC. Same with burgers. Possibly ribs might be better here. I’ll confess I don’t like deep dish or the thin crust here, or Chicago dog. I like beefs well enough but don’t really love them the way others do.

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  156. “Chicago holds its own domestically according to the Michelin rankings.”

    I thought just Alinea and L20 were 3*. And L20 basically doesn’t exist in the way that got the 3* any longer. If you taking Michelin as metric (I wouldn’t necessarily), Chicago trails NYC by a lot (although prob need to adjust for NYC guide being out longer, and the numbers tend to increase over time I think).

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  157. “I thought just Alinea and L20 were 3*.”

    Sorry- you are right. I copied it down wrong.

    3 Stars:

    SF: 2
    NY: 5
    Chicago: 2

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  158. Girl and the goat is awesome. Sit up front on the couches and have the coolest waitress in the place just bring you food until you are full. Her name is Jen and it will be a great meal!

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  159. “I hear similar comments from native Chicagoans about dining, and compared to NY and Philly where I have lived in the past, it seems on par. I feel like I’m missing something somewhere!”

    ““I don’t know that Chicago is better than (or even really on par with) NYC but it’s plenty good enough.”
    Depends how one defines things.”

    to clarify better, i am not talking about having the BEST eats i am talking about an abundance of GOOD eats.
    at any point anywhere i am at in the city i will be at least 2 miles from something great.
    on date night we can pick any style of food we can imagine and get there in 30 minutes

    Michelin can smell my hairy ********@^@*@!*@&!&#&! i can care less about some random ranking/ratings. my tummy knows good food and thats all i need to know 🙂

    and if you want Japanese, just skip the trendy japonais and go to where real japanse people eat at Renge Tai (sp) on pulaski and touhy and actually a block west of wholy frijole.

    i am glad most sheeple flock to trendy over priced star chef restaurants. but the real secret is its the small “home cooked” places that are the best. also guess where the superstar chefs eat when the eat out? yep the hole in the wall joint with the mom cooking in back and the son serving you.

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  160. “I definitely harbor an east coast bias, (sports, proximity of one city to another), but I really want to get to know Chicago better before we decide (in June) if we stay here or leave in 2012.”

    Joe, i agree philly has some good eats, i was there little over 8 years ago havent had a reason to go back. at that time, dont remmebr the street, but had a trendy strip of like 5 restaurants people were clamoring about so i hit all five in three days. all good but not wowed.

    the reason i love chicago food is it takes you out of your own hood to go eat and experience another hood. every time is a whole experience. we will trek over to lawrence ave for, i forgot the name again, but its sicilian style pizza and close to lincln square. or head out to 75th street for some Caribbean jerk, or south holland for some polish highlander food. and even kenosha to get a brat at the Brat Stop. and we just dont eat we walk around and check out the shops, local bars, walk down the streets look at yards and homes, stop and talk to residents, its a whole experience.

    and you will notice i went sans “sports town” as it is a given chicago IS a sports town.

    and will say chicago in the late spring and summer is spectacular. wifey and i are huge “fest” people, nothing more awseome than live music, shopping, and drinking outside in the afternoon. you will see the groove family at one fest a week minimum

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  161. “Michelin can smell my hairy ********@^@*@!*@&!&#&! i can care less about some random ranking/ratings.”

    Sabrina brought up Michelin in defense of Chicago. I don’t think the numbers support her claim (although would have to look at NYC’s numbers when they first came out). I don’t think Michelin is worthless but wouldn’t put much weight on it for my day to day needs.

    “to clarify better, i am not talking about having the BEST eats i am talking about an abundance of GOOD eats.
    at any point anywhere i am at in the city i will be at least 2 miles from something great.”

    And you think Chicago is *better* than NYC using this standard?

    “and if you want Japanese, just skip the trendy japonais and go to where real japanse people eat at Renge Tai (sp) on pulaski and touhy and actually a block west of wholy frijole.”

    I like Renga Tei. Izakaya Sankyu up around Elk Grove or Mt Prospect is also really good. Ramen at Mitsuwa food court very good. But it’s not even close to the range of things available in NYC.

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  162. Dz,

    to be fair i only vist NY about every three years or so, which means my comparisons are going to be biased as there are many eats in NY i haven’t tried yet.

    one thing when you dine out in chicago that we top NY is that our restaurants are NOT FILLED WITH NY’ers.

    but i am waiting for a disagreement on theater scene as i will fight to the death chicago is third in the WORLD!

    NYC as i say is just awesome and the whole vibe you feel there is like no other. but its a place to visit and chicago is a place to raise a family!

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  163. Eating out at a nice restaurant for comparable quality food in Chicago might cost you $80-150 (with drinks). In NYC its like $120-$300+. Chicago wins hands down.

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  164. “Eating out at a nice restaurant for comparable quality food in Chicago might cost you $80-150 (with drinks). In NYC its like $120-$300+. Chicago wins hands down.”

    There’s no way Bob spends $100+ anywhere. I gotta think you could work a deal in NYC.

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  165. Gee whiz, I never meant to spur yet another Chicago vs. NYC debate (which often revolves around food) by proposing that Groove consider a smaller city (e.g., Atlanta) if what he seeks is a SFH/yard/neighborly vibe.

    But while we’re on the topic, did you read about the guy whose suicide was prevented a few days ago in NYC? He jumped off a building but a pile of garbage (long overdue for pickup) broke his fall.

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  166. “There’s no way Bob spends $100+ anywhere. I gotta think you could work a deal in NYC.”

    True. I was talking about for average people 😀

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  167. I’m looking for honest opinions, I’ve seen the 235 Van Buren building and I actually like it (no I’m not that Joe guy or whoever you guys are arguing with. I realize the units are small and I know the prices are currently way too high for what you get. But does anyone know their true sales? the price trends? What other units around that area are good? I like the south loop in that area, there’s nothing to do but I like living close to work. Also, does anyone know about the developer? anything is useful as long as it’s contructive!

    Also, as for the Astoria, does anyone know where to find prices on their rentals? I looked on craigslist but it’s all brokers posting over and over and I’m sure they mark up the prices for themselves. I’ve never rented but I am pretty sure they do. I might just rent and wait until units at 235 come on sale in a few years.

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  168. “I’m looking for honest opinions, I’ve seen the 235 Van Buren building and I actually like it (no I’m not that Joe guy or whoever you guys are arguing with. I realize the units are small and I know the prices are currently way too high for what you get. But does anyone know their true sales? the price trends? What other units around that area are good? I like the south loop in that area, there’s nothing to do but I like living close to work. Also, does anyone know about the developer? anything is useful as long as it’s contructive!”

    Eric: Do you have a good buyers agent? They would be able to answer most of these questions for you. There are plenty of other buildings in the area including 208 W. Washington and 212 W. Washington. Also there several loft buildings just west of the river. You need to get a good agent.

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  169. Eric,

    You can find rent information on Astoria Tower (a former client) in this post. The stated rents do not include the one month free that was being offered.

    http://yochicago.com/crains-low-price-for-astoria-tower-should-result-in-low-rents/18831/

    Whenever you’re buying you should work with a highly experienced buyer’s agent. Look for someone who has at least 5, and preferably 10 years’ experience in the business, and who has completed at least 50 transactions representing buyers in the area in which you want to buy. Don’t take a chance on a rookie.

    CMK / 235 Van Buren is a client of ours. If you want to check them out, simply hang out outside 235, or 1620 S Michigan, or 1720 S Michigan, or 630 N Franklin, or any of their other buildings and talk to buyers about their experience with CMK.

    You’ll get a lot better information face-to-face than you will from anonymice on the Internet. You never know what their agenda is or whether they have any actual experience with CMK.

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  170. Great thanks.

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  171. $1200 for a studio at Astoria, rip off, looks like I will rent up north.

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  172. When I want to read the truth about a building I turn here 1st, all the other sites are just over-inflated commercials disguised as independent news. Too bad I did not find out about this site before I made so many bad decisions. Thanks to all who make this site work!!!!

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