Moving from the GreenZone to the Suburbs: Do You Need a Therapist to Cope?

The Chicago Tribune reports on city dwellers who have kids and decide that they can’t make it work and have to move to the suburbs.

Some of the transplants have an identity crisis.

“I see this all the time with my practice,” said David Klow, owner of Skylight Counseling Center, which has offices in Chicago and Skokie. “Where we live gives us a sense of identity.”

Swapping city life for the suburbs is different from moving to another town or neighborhood. Real estate agents say city-to-suburbs folks often need special hand-holding.

“They wake up in the suburbs, and there’s no brunch,” said Karen Gilbert, a broker agent with Dream Town Realty. “There is a different kind of lifestyle.”

With apartment life, she said, “They’re used to having a corner coffee shop and a corner bar. They’re used to pushing their stroller to the store.”

Longtime city dwellers are attached to a lifestyle they’ve intentionally cultivated. Many try to make it work — creating room for a crib in the toddler’s room, gamely carrying a stroller up stairs.

“It’s a long part of their life,” Gilbert said. “They try to do anything they possibly can to stay downtown.”

Moving to the suburbs after a decade, or more, living in the GreenZone of Chicago can apparently be traumatic for some.

For starters, he said, many worry that their social lives will change. They fear missing out on art, culture and restaurants — even, he suggests, a connection to their younger selves.

“What happens when they move to the suburbs, will that be threatened?” he said. “Will they still feel connected to things that will enliven them and their relationships?”

Klow counsels families to think through a personal mission statement of what they value in a fulfilling life. Some of those components, for example, might be education, safety, quiet, diversity or opportunity.

Put aside the worries about becoming a suburban stereotype, he said.

“Some of that is unfounded, because you really can create a life you want wherever you are,” he said.

For some, moving to the suburbs might sprout as school decisions loom. Others may consider it while tripping over toys in their two-bedroom condo downtown.

“That’s our sweet spot — people with a 2-year-old,” said Bernstein, whose local ties include attending the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign and a husband from Skokie.

Many GreenZone residents find they can recreate many amenities of their lives in their current neighborhood in their new suburban towns.

As we’ve chattered about before, if you live in the Southport neighborhood and shop at Athleta and Anthropologie and eat at the Potbelly and Noodles & Company, it’s not like you cannot do the same in downtown Naperville or downtown Evanston.

The Erwin family loved walking to favorite restaurants and boutiques. But having family in the Hinsdale area gave them a nudge to move.

There, they found many similarities: a home a block from a school and a 7-minute walk from the train. Even the Green Goddess boutique, she said, was in both spots.

“It felt a lot like Lincoln Park,” she said. They traded in their membership to the Shedd Aquarium and Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum for the Brookfield Zoo and Morton Arboretum.

Schools used to be the main reason that city families left for the suburbs. But most of the families highlighted in this article were in what most would consider “good” school districts, i.e. in Lakeview and Lincoln Park.

Recently, traffic and crime concerns, appear to be higher on people’s lists as to why they are willing to leave the city.

Katie Hotze, 36, a Winnetka mom of a 1-year-old son and 4-year-old daughter, said she and her husband were sure they’d buy in the city. Her husband spent his bachelor years in the Gold Coast. Renting in Lakeview, they hoped to buy in Lincoln Park.

“We were shopping in the city, we loved it,” she said. “We would be whisked away in a snowstorm to a fabulous wine bar in River North. It was just amazing. We loved the city for that reason.”

But while they were shopping, a variety of factors — from crime to a 20-minute 2-mile drive to her daughter’s day care — had them second guessing.

“We did a complete 180,” she said, asking the agent to instead target Winnetka, where a friend had invited her to coffee.

Now they delight in the ease of safe, traffic-less streets, abundant parks, a house and a driveway.

“It’s so much easier up here,” she said.

Given future budget cuts and tax increases that Chicago faces, along with the recent surge in property crimes in some neighborhoods like Lakeview, will young families face an easier choice to move to the suburbs?

And are record high housing prices in the GreenZone neighborhoods one of the reasons they are being pushed out to the suburbs?

You can get a 3-bedroom house in Winnetka for less than that 3-bedroom $900,000 duplex down in Lakeview or Lincoln Park, where the bedrooms are all in the basement.

Relax. Take a deep breath. Moving to the suburbs is going to be okay. [Chicago Tribune, Alison Bowen, January 12, 2016]

170 Responses to “Moving from the GreenZone to the Suburbs: Do You Need a Therapist to Cope?”

  1. You got to be f***ing kidding me? People need counseling b/c they moved from the city to the burbs? I feel like people do not have enough real problems on their hands. I bet you do not hear a blue color working going for counseling b/c they moved to the burbs. What a joke.

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  2. “You got to be f***ing kidding me? People need counseling b/c they moved from the city to the burbs?”

    That’s what it says.

    Living “downtown” meant they were young. And now they’re not.

    It’s traumatic to realize your youth is gone and you no longer get to go to the bars all night and wake up at noon on the weekends.

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  3. I hate when suburbanites refer to the entire city as “downtown”.

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  4. spoiled stupid gen x – acting as if they are something special or different than previous generations. thinking that they can hold on to their ridiculous spoiled brat youthful parent-funded partying ways in the city but still have a family. oh yeah, you guys are smarter and better than us and can have it all…..stupid. move the suburbs, raise your family and, most importantly, stfu

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  5. I don’t mind the suburbs and lived there for 10+ years after entering the workforce. But I did the reverse as the article, and moved from the burbs to the City for 1 main reason…lessening my 1 hour commute on the CTA down to a 20 minute walk to my downtown loop office.

    With money, you can buy many things, a house, a car. But you can’t put a price on the additional time with your family that you can add to by lessening the commute time.

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  6. The biggest issue is children. Coffee shops and trinket stores rarely ever take priority over your child’s education and safety. When this reality sinks in, most high tail it to the burbs where they can get more space for the money and decent public schools k-12. Yes, there are those who can afford to stay in the city and do so, but that option is simply not the reality for most folks.

    I still don’t believe it is a huge sacrifice moving to the inner burbs. Chicago is great in that we have a number of suburbs with actual walkable downtowns and decent commuting options.

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  7. I’d need a therapist if I had to quadruple my commute time… blech

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  8. I’m with sonies on this. I like the look/feel of the North Shore, but the commute would drive me crazy. For a short time I worked in Evanston while living in University Village. I would come home and just cry from the stress of that commute.

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  9. clio – I think the bulk of Gen X is older than this right now. These are mostly Gen Y, along with the youngest of Gen X.

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  10. Just join a Thursday night “book club” already.

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  11. “spoiled stupid gen x – acting as if they are something special or different than previous generations.”

    Most of Gen X is in their 40s now. Everyone in the article was in their 30s. One woman was 31. She would be a millennial.

    Generation X graduated from college during the early 1990s recession or, the younger ones, during the 2000-2001 recession. I think most of them ended up in the suburbs years ago. The older ones never even lived in the city because it still sucked in the 1990s. No big ten bars even!

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  12. Raising kids in the suburbs is no picnic. Did anyone see the article how New Trier was forcing its kids to endure anti-white racism on MLK day? http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/01/12/racial-identity-mlk-new-trier/

    Teens in the GZ actually have less freedom (of space) to get into trouble with drugs etc. than do suburban teens who have more cars and open space and voluminous basements in which to partake in all kinds of things.

    There is no substitute for kids learning about the real world via city living, as opposed to self-segregating suburbs like Glencoe or Highland Park where there is no reality of diversity, and everything is instead learned via the false lies of TV or internet. My buddy who lives in Northbrook says that its very, very fine public library is nothing but full of poz promotion in its Teen section, all homo and gender this/that. It’s terrible.

    true conservatives only really have 2 options: live deep in the city, or deep in the country. Suburbs are for liberal whites who aren’t connected to reality, as the examples above about NT and MLK and the Northbrook library illustrate. Teach your kids about poz via false lies at the Northbrook library or let them see Boystown at dusk in summer with their own eyes. Which is more truthful?

    Let your kids learn white-guilt in the burbs, or let them see the South and West Sides with their own eyes. The city is better, because it’s reality. Not Deerfield.

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  13. Crib Chatter just trolled everyone who read this. This article is such bullshit, I can smell it from my laptop. This is article is designed to make readers BUY and SELL real estate property. I’m thoroughly disgusted with the author and CribChatter.

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  14. I’m totally with you, B. I grew up in Oak Park and we discuss moving there (from East Village). Our problem is that moving there would double our commute time. We will stay in our apt with a not-ideal layout to get that extra hour back in our day with our kid. However, once we have another and they go to school, we may look to re-evaluate. But the commute will be the reason we don’t leave the city.

    Also, this is the older part of millenials. People born from 1980-1985.

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  15. HH – DuPAge or Kane county. I can’t believe you used northbrook of all places.

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  16. Generation X graduated from college during the early 1990s recession or, the younger ones, during the 2000-2001 recession.

    The oldest Gen Xers graduated in the late 80s. (Assuming gen x is ’66 through ’85, the oldest graduated in 87/88)

    The older ones never even lived in the city because it still sucked in the 1990s. No big ten bars even!

    You gotta stop saying this – thousands of people in their 20s and 30s lived in the city in the late 80s /early 90s.

    Side note – why are Sabrina’s posts showing up out of order?

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  17. We went thru this exact issue in 2015. The family and I were moving from Fulton Market to the inner burbs. It was a tough decision and we were sad to leave behind the easy commute, cool emerging neighborhood, many dining options, and pace of city life.

    I assure you that we did not need counseling. For us the kids came and like many others we dragged our feet a few extra years. In the end it was the lure of a basement, backyard, and kid friendly community amenities that made us move.

    Ironically part of he lure to suburbia was schools and oldest ended up in private school. FYI it’s significantly cheaper than the private schools downtown.

    We miss those incredible dining options, old neighbors, and the ability to walk to everything. That has been replaced by mostly mediocre dining, some great new neighbors, and easy free parking. The wife and I still get down to the city for dinner etc. around three nights a month. And my kids took many “train adventures” into the city on warmer days. Hence the benefit of being on the train route in the inner burbs.

    As for commute Russ had it right. The wife loves her parking spot next to the local metra stop and her commute is quite good. She takes the “seven fourty late” train and is sitting in her office while I’m still struggling with those not so “express lanes” on the Kennedy.

    B had a solid point about that extra hour Monday thru Friday however he/she may have overlooked the value of added benefits on the weekends. The ease of family life on the weekends in our home is hard to explain. But it is real. Among other benefits just letting our kids play outside for hours without going to the park is incredible. And they love it!

    All in all my wife is the first to admit that it was a great decision to move!

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  18. Madeline – all my college friends that graduated college 87-93 lived in the city. Some hoods were better than others but it was a cool and great place to live. everything was way cheaper back then. There were no LAZ parking meters, the bars had not started bottle service, and my newly renovated Lakeview huge two bedroom walk up was only $1075 in rent during 1994-95.

    And there were plenty of Big10 bars with their flags out every Saturday.

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  19. the cliche’ explanation for leaving the city is the wife was pushing stroller down the street and came upon a bust out either urinating or jerking it. I heard variations of this story at nearly every suburban party last year.

    I pushed strollers around streeterville for 6 years and never encountered such hijinks.

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  20. People urinate all over in River North. I’ve seen it many times.

    My friend used to live in Bridgeport and he said people would urinate on his house constantly.

    I haven’t seen any public urination in any other neighborhoods I have visited.

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  21. if you haven’t seen public urination in Chicago you’re not looking hard enough.

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  22. I call BS on urination cliche too. People leave the city because the cannot afford to have a certain life style there once they have kids. Fundamentally, It seems many value space to city life style.

    My kid loves the children’s museum and the parks are less than 10 mins of walk from where we live. I really don’t get why it is so difficult to take the kids and their playdates to a park?

    Also personally, I actually don’t like basements and storing load of junk. I regularly give away my kid’s toys and clothing as well as my stuff.

    People all around the world happily raise kids in much smaller apartments. This quest of huge living space at expense of living so close to ugly strip malls, terrible chain stores, cheap characterless housing is something I find amusing.

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  23. I have had the misfortune of experiencing urine odor many times, but seeing an actual urination never. Where and at what times do you guys walk? Sure maybe in some back alley on late hours after folks are drunk. But I doubt sane mothers take their kids out at that time and in such places.

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  24. I’ve seen the urination in the parking lot next to Star of Siam many, many times.

    My friend with the urinal house lived very close to Comisky, so drunkards would urinate there all of the time.

    I wish the police would arrest more of these people.

    That being said, I wouldn’t move out of the city due to public urination.

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  25. “I wouldn’t move out of the city due to public urination.”

    It’s not that common. Suburban geese poop is a worse thing.

    People in the GZ really don’t need that much space or the “basement” unless they have people over. When you are entertaining, the adults need their area, the kids/teens a separate one. So, the suburban house with the basement becomes the kids’ zone, the kitchen island or family room for the adults. Even in the GZ at SFHs, this dynamic sorts it out like that.

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  26. PS By the way, has anyone been to New City (near Clybourn/North Ave)? It’s like being in the Glen (Glenview) without having to live in the burbs. We have our own Epcot-like ersatz suburban area now.

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  27. Yes, other than the brand spankin new Arclight movie theater its pretty terrible… Adobe Gilas is hands down one of the most god awful meals I have ever had in the last 20 years probably… shame it was one of two places open on xmas eve before the star wars movie we went to see.

    Good luck navigating that dumbarse place, worst part is that they have parking for literally a million vehicles, and they still charge you ridiculous downtown parking rates, like 20 bucks for 2 hours! “only 4.50 if you see a movie” lol

    fuck that noise

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  28. “My kid loves the children’s museum and the parks are less than 10 mins of walk from where we live. I really don’t get why it is so difficult to take the kids and their playdates to a park?”

    It’s not difficult at all. We did it for years. But now I can be working on my laptop or cooking dinner while watching them play in the backyard. That’s a huge time saver and easier on all of us.

    “Also personally, I actually don’t like basements and storing load of junk”

    My house and loft were not that different in overall size. And we are minimalists as well. But it is sure easier to leave their toys in bins at their level in the basement then packing em up every day and night. Ours is not a huge house but it has incredible character as it was designed by an architect as his personal home.

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  29. Kids playing in a suburban backyard comes at the cost of yardwork (and snow shoveling). Mowing and landscaping sucks. City backyards suck less because they’re smaller.

    Commute is the number one downside to suburban living. I rate yardwork as the number two downside.

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  30. “My friend with the urinal house lived very close to Comisky, so drunkards would urinate there all of the time.
    I wish the police would arrest more of these people.”

    Are you serious? Arresting people for public urination? Last time I checked, violent crime in our city is out of control. I’d rather have our prisons stuffed with violent offenders, rather than drunks and pot heads. Simply fine them the $250 or $500 it is and be on with it.

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  31. Public urinaters are obnoxious jerks. They are exposing themselves. Someone with so little self control and concern for others is a dangerous person. You don’t see women urinating everywhere just because they are drunk.

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  32. “Kids playing in a suburban backyard comes at the cost of yardwork (and snow shoveling). Mowing and landscaping sucks. City backyards suck less because they’re smaller.”

    Couldn’t agree more which is why we have a lawn and snow service. And it’s WAY cheaper than your monthly assessment at the 3/2 condo in the city!

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  33. “Last time I checked, violent crime in our city is out of control.”

    When was that? 1993? When the homicide rate was double what it is now? And ditto with aggravated assaults (as in, there were more aggravated assaults involving a gun in ’93, than total a-a in 2014)? Or do you believe that CPD is hiding over half of the crime in the city?

    Is there too much crime? For sure. Is it “out of control”? Hm.

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  34. “When the homicide rate was double what it is now?”

    The homicide rate in the early 90’s is double what it is now because of the massive advancements in life saving technology in our hospitals and ambulances. Back in the day, being shot in the torso or head was pretty much a death sentence. Now, people actually live when they are hit in these spots due to faster ambulance response and better emergency room technology and practices.

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  35. “The homicide rate in the early 90’s is double what it is now because of the massive advancements in life saving technology ”

    Cite, please, to something *specifically* applicable to Chicago.

    Obviously, I don’t deny the general proposition. But you’re asserting that 400-500 people will be shot this year, who would have died with the trauma care of 20 years ago, notwithstanding the comparable 50% drop in aggravated assaults.

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  36. It’s scarier now because they tore down the public housing that kept the gangs in only certain neighborhoods. Now, that they want to move gang members all over the city, it’s scarier. .

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  37. “the public housing that kept the gangs in only certain neighborhoods”

    Didn’t realize that the projects came with leashes.

    “they want to move gang members all over the city”

    No one is moving gang members all over the city.

    And if there is anything “they” want it is to make it bad enough that the gang members’ grandmas move the whole family to Alabama, or at least the south suburbs.

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  38. I’ve made no secret as to the value I placed on proximity to a city park (i.e., within one or two blocks max from LP) and on easy access to young-child-friendly institutions (e.g., Nature Museum, Children’s Museum, Art Inst, Sci & Industry). And I used to discount, if not outright dismiss, the value of a basement (for playing, storage, w/d and mechanicals and even guests) and a yard. But after having a (small) basement and a (tiny, grassless) yard for a couple years, I can’t imagine having kids without them (yes, obviously I can imagine it; I can imagine raising them in a studio apartment). Those young-child-friendly institutions are still important too, but it seems that they’re used less regularly as kids get older and busier. Next move for us will be for really strong public K-12, all within a .5 to .75 mile radius of home (in an even smaller “city,” which will cause me to accept a 45-75 minute door to door commute, instead of 10 minute). Putting kids in a car for at least 15 minutes each way to and from school, while living “in” a “city” is for the birds.

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  39. ” really strong public K-12″

    Can’t have the little nonny’s mixing with the hoi polloi. How ever will they cope?!!????!

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  40. Crime is out of control in Chicago, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Now, most of that crime localized to certain neighborhoods, but like radiation, it’s hard to simply contain in one area, especially when the breeze starts to blow….

    And yes, CPD is notorious for ‘juking the stats’. They misreport crimes, cover up their own crimes, hide evidence, lie under oath, and so on and so on.

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  41. “Can’t have the little nonny’s mixing with the hoi polloi. How ever will they cope?!!????!”

    Someday when my child asks me about ‘the real world’ I’m going to point out that the ‘real world’ is filled with crime, poor people, foreign cultures and stress. There’s a reason why there’s a premium to live in wonderful towns like Long Grove and people arrange their entire lives to make sure that they never have to live in Pilsen or Carpentersville.

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  42. They force developers to contribute to low income housing schemes or pay a large fee. There is talk of adding a development near me and they plan include a 20% set aside for poor people. It’s ridiculous to me when there are plenty of places for poor people to live. It’s bringing crime into more middle class neighborhoods, where developers can’t afford to pay the city’s ridiculous fee.

    I’m considering moving because the police in my neighborhood just don’t care. We had a shooting last year and the response was, “Oh, your neighborhood is safe. We don’t have enough officers to patrol your neighborhood because it’s not bad enough.”

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  43. “developers can’t afford to pay the city’s ridiculous fee”

    If they are building with that skinny of a margin, maybe they should go back to building in Carpentersville.

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  44. There’s a reason why the Green Zone areas are so expensive. Its usually because there is less crime (vs. non-green zone city areas), and better school districts. Now instead of having the poor (and let’s face it more poor ppl collerates with higher crime rates) congregated in a few areas, they are spreading them out into middle class areas. The end result is that if you want safety in the City, you will need to move into a GZ and surround yourself with affluent ppl where the poor can not penetrate.

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  45. First time posting here since 2011, when people here said I was stupid seeing value when you could buy a 2 flat in Lakeview in the $400k – $500k range.

    Well I bought one in 2011, and sold it in 2015 for a nice gain. And, gleefully left the city. We moved to Evanston’s Lakeshore Historic and I’ll share this:

    -My commute to the Loop is the exact same time door to door as it was on the Red Line from Lakeview. Except I now ride Metra. Metra is fast, on time, and doesn’t smell like a toilet at a bad gas station on a hot August day after a homeless person took a crap on the floor and bathed in the sink.

    -My beautiful home was purchased for less than my city property was sold for. I do not understand the price premium in Chicago. So, I capitalized on it.

    -My area of Evanston is far more walkable, with more services than my old neighborhood on the north end of Lakeview. I have 3 full service grocery stores within 2 blocks, a few bars and restaurants, Metra and Purple Line within a few blocks.

    -People in my new neighborhood actually give a shit about the community. I like that.

    -The schools are good in Evanston. So are the parks, and city services.

    -My real estate taxes are about the same, since the Lakeview reassessment and tax hike version 1.0. Get ready for more taxes, Chicago. It ain’t over.

    -I can get out for fun on the north side of Chicago from Evanston via CTA train, Uber, or Cab. I may spend $10 more on cabfare, but it’s worth it.

    -I haven’t see a rat in 6 months. We have bunnies. Bunnies are cuter than rats.

    -I haven’t seem a gangbanger or a drug deal on my block ( Fingers crossed things don’t change) If I see one, I know the Evanston police will show up BEFORE someone is shot or stabbed.

    – I sleep better, breathe fresher air, and I’m more calm.

    -I used to worry that I’d miss the city. I don’t.

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  46. I believe this article summarizes the theory Jenny is citing:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/american-murder-mystery/306872/

    Basically social scientists thought moving poor people to nicer places would result in the nicer areas lifting the less fortunate out of poverty and reducing violence. In other words poverty / violence are more a product of environment than anything else. What actually happened is the less fortunate moved to nicer areas and brought them down rather than the areas bringing them up (the why is open to debate). This in turn lead to those who lived in the nice areas and could move to leave making those areas worse off. The end result is more violence spread over a larger area making it more difficult to police. This in no way represents my view but it is the gist of the article. Chicago was a big believer in this phenomenon.

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  47. This argument regarding the burbs is so old. Lets break it down by $$:

    “Wealthy”: If you have the $$ and you can stay in the city, live near the amenities you use in a large house/TH/apt and send the kids to private school you will. It has obvious benefits for time and experiences. No doubt SOME would rather sit in their 10k sqr ft mansion on the lake in the north burbs and watch their projection tv but MOST (especially the younger buyers) would rather live in the city.
    “UMC/5%’ers”: You have to make sacrifices to live in the city. This is having fewer children, living in a smaller place, sending kids to mediocre school, longer commute, etc. The choice here (city vs burbs) is much more personal. Here it comes down to what you are willing to give up vs gain by being in the city.
    “MC/LMC”: City is too expensive so its either burbs or outer city hoods that are burb like.

    The reason the UMC/5%’ers who move to the burbs are seeing therapists is because it is difficult to 1. accept you have hit your ceiling job / earning wise 2. you are now middle age and have to leave youth behind 3. your dreams of living in a bustling city just dont fit with your situation. It is painful and I can understand why there is a place for a therapist. It is pretty easy to laugh at these issues but i’m sure many in the 35-45 yr old range can identify with them even if they don’t want to admit it.

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  48. The problem with the theory of having a neighborhood with only the affluent as neighbors is that it makes for ripe pickings among predators. Hence the constant petty crime in Lake View.

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  49. My 2nd cousin a former high level officer in the Shakespeare district once said that only criminals live in high crime neighborhoods. Otherwise there’s no reason to live there. Remember, rents are high in high crime areas because landlords get a lot of nonpayment of rent, and that’s priced into rent. In a former life I would come across rents in bad neighborhoods and I was shocked to find that my 2 bedroom on the NW side was cheaper than a 2 bedroom in most neighborhoods on the southside.

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  50. “Someday when my child asks me about ‘the real world’ I’m going to point out that the ‘real world’ is filled with crime, poor people, foreign cultures and stress”

    We used to live right near the “real world Chicago” house. HH is right they had some crime. One member stole some wine at a bar. Constant stress cause the producers brought back skeletons from their closets. And there were a few foreigners. That is if you consider Staten Island, Austin, and a small town in Louisiana. And there were clearly some poor people. If I recall the episode correctly the one guy never could cover his bar tab for the bottle service they ordered.

    Damn real world!

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  51. I’m so tempted to move, but I’d have to give up my wonderful view and grass for my dogs.

    I’m just getting tired of the issues in my neighborhood. For instance, a block south is Pilsen and there are two empty lots. The Pilsen residents refuse to let anything be built on it unless it’s for poor people.

    There is a homeless shelter on Canal. They allow the homeless to just wander around aimlessly, smoking their god damned cigarettes. I have to roll up my car windows in the summer when I drive by.

    Then, there is a housing complex for the poor nearby. When they gentrified my neighborhood, they kept one development for the poor people and that’s where almost all of the crime in my neighborhood originates. If they would just tear that development down and add townhouses or condos, the neighborhood would vastly improve.

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  52. “They allow the homeless to just wander around aimlessly, smoking their god damned cigarettes. I have to roll up my car windows in the summer when I drive by.”

    Just had to see that again. Gold, Jerry. Gold!!

    btw, they had to move it from the old location, bc if PGM had stayed, there’d be too many undesirables in the Near-SLoop.

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  53. “If they would just tear that development down and add townhouses or condos, the neighborhood would vastly improve”

    Jenny – Don’t judge a book by it’s cover. Your dream man is living there now. There is a no beard, car owning, good earner who is trying to save up his money for a down payment. He and his dog pick up those butts every day on their morning walk. Making him kind and caring.

    Just last week Sabrina was in the hood taking photos and saw him out there on a ladder. She told me that he was fixing a broken window for the old lady on the second floor.

    And he is apparently never sick but HH and Annony saw him at the downtown Walgreens the week before Christmas. (They were obviously there having their annual holiday lunch at the sushi bar and talking politics) Strange coincidence but evidently your dream man was there too. Apparently he was asking the pharmacist about getting a cpap machine to control his snoring. And he wanted to pay cash cause he did not believe in using a credit card. Even more ironically the pharmicist was gay and apparently found him quite attractive. He actually asked him out but your man declined suggesting that he was flattered but still waiting for the right woman!

    If only you had not rushed by the place last summer with the windows up while judging the people you two might be engaged by now!

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  54. Hahaha, jp3… Except he should use his credit cards to buy that machine so he can get cash back. Then, he should submit the receipt to his FSA, so he can use pre-tax dollars. With those financial skills, he’s not my dream man. Plus, i don’t want my dream man hanging out with smokers or cleaning up after them. I don’t want him to get cancer! That’s the type of man who would let a smoker, covered in carcinogens, hold a baby!!

    —–

    Why not just close the homeless shelter? We were just talking about this at work? They don’t seem to want to be there. They should put some cargo boxes on Lower Wacker and let them live there.

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  55. I swear to god Jenny I think I know you except the person I know got married a few years back after many years of searching. she lives out of state how because she follows her man throughout the us for his $300k a year job.

    she had to make some compromises though. husband is pretty dorky and is a workaholic. he’s never around. actually to her that’s a good thing. they literally go weeks at a time not seeing each other. the husband is also a bit spendy. that good income has an $80k car and like 5 tvs for no good reason. and lots of stuff that never gets used. and food wise he’s quite unadventurous. doesn’t like cheese, only eats meat with hot sauce, but no spices. lives almost entirely off junk food. drinks 3-4 cans of Diet Coke a day.

    but no beard, loves dogs, lots of money, smart, well dressed, witty, all the rest of the stuff on your list too. no interest in kids either. you gotta make compromises. serious, deep compromises.

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  56. “they should put some cargo boxes on Lower Wacker and let them live there.”

    But then they’d be right in the loop all the time!

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  57. @HD

    “his $300k a year job.”

    what industry?

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  58. Is Oak Park considered the exception to the rule?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/american-murder-mystery/306872/

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  59. corporate trial lawyer flying around the country on trial all the time. he probably makes more than $300 I kinda just threw that number out there. decent guy so i have a pretty good idea what kind of guy Jenny would like. she’s just looking for love in all the wrong places.

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  60. “Well I bought one in 2011, and sold it in 2015 for a nice gain. And, gleefully left the city. We moved to Evanston’s Lakeshore Historic and I’ll share this:”

    Sounds wonderful TB. Good for you.

    Yes- the red line stinks. Literally.

    But if you think Evanston taxes are about the “same” as living in Lakeview, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Evanston’s pensions are just as underfunded, if not more so, than Chicago and the result is that without a really high property tax increase (on top of what is already there) they will be in default much like Chicago. No thanks.

    Oh- and you can’t ride your bike to Wrigley Field (well- you can- but it’s a pretty long bike ride.)

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  61. “Those young-child-friendly institutions are still important too, but it seems that they’re used less regularly as kids get older and busier.”

    Wait a minute. Wasn’t this my exact point a year or two ago and I was mocked endlessly by many here when I said that the Zoo and Lincoln Park were meaningless as the kids got older because all you do is go to endless soccer games (many of which will be in the suburbs anyway) and whatever other athletic events or other events the kids are in?

    No- you don’t go out to fancy restaurants either because your child will have after school practice for whatever sports team, then a game, then homework, then whatever other activity and on and on and on.

    You’re lucky if you eat at the Potbelly’s let alone Avec. At that point, “city living” is irrelevant.

    But no one here believed me.

    I guess a lot of people’s kids are getting older and they’re finally figuring it out.

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  62. Dorky guys are adorable. I am also picky about food. Every day, I eat fruit for breakfast, a salad for lunch, and pasta for dinner. It’s too bad that guy is already taken. I like dating lawyers because it’s fun to argue with them and discuss legal issues such as where in prison a blind/deaf inmate would be kept and whether it would be considered murder to kill a humanoid alien.

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  63. Jenny you were meant to date lawyers. There’s so many of them in the city, you should be able to snag one pretty easily.

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  64. I am getting the feeling that HD’s 300k lawyer “friend” is his online persona. Jenny is playing into the fantasy…… such an online romance these two have……

    I hope HD’s wife doesn’t read this blog.

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  65. Now this thread is the CC we all know and love (and missed for so long).

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  66. Indeed Icarus. hd crushing on jenny is timeless cc. which makes me wonder if bob and westloopelo ever got together

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  67. “Indeed Icarus. hd crushing on jenny is timeless cc. which makes me wonder if bob and westloopelo ever got together”

    I doubt bob and WLE ever got together. WLE was much too sophisticated for him…. now Bob and HH that a different story. I am fairly certain they hooked up in a broke back mountain sort of way.

    BTW what do you think happened to the nasty man “G”… my guess is he had to leave Chicago because he couldn’t afford the rent…… he is probably now living in a van down by the river.

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  68. Haha…CH and Olic, if there is ever a CC get together I am buying some bubbly for you guys :)

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  69. $300k? No way, I’m an internet three millionaire.

    I’m a married man you guys, this is not crushing on jenny, i’m just saying that I have a friend very much like her, very very similar personalities.

    Chuk and Sabrina get into lovers spats frequently over obscure he said/she said issues. They’re in love and they know it too.

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  70. “I’m a married man you guys, this is not crushing on jenny, i’m just saying that I have a friend very much like her, very very similar personalities.”

    Just like you live in a town very very similar to Long Grove??

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  71. That Memphis article is a hoot. It’s like no one ever learned how to control for demographics. Crime is up in Memphis and, what a surprise, so is poverty and the 13-26 male age group. The demographic rate of crime goes unchanged.

    Counter-point: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/upshot/an-atlas-of-upward-mobility-shows-paths-out-of-poverty.html?_r=0

    Of course crime goes up in neighborhoods when they become younger and poorer. The material question is: does the adjusted rate of crime go up in the city as a whole or does it go down? Even if your motivations are entirely selfish, the only material question is: does the rate of victimhood for existing residents substantially increase as a neighborhood becomes marginally more economically diverse?

    Is forcing the Jennys of the world to pay attention to crime good or bad in the long run? The likelihood of a white woman being murdered in Chicago is what? Nonexistent?

    Out of curiosity, who here actually grew up in a major city? It’s interesting to hear people debate the value of city-life for children – my read is that most people here aren’t speaking from a place of experience when they identify what those benefits are.

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  72. ” The likelihood of a white woman being murdered in Chicago is what? Nonexistent?”

    *other than by a partner or family member*, yeah, pretty close to zero.

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  73. The Tribune article is self-serving pandering to their readership of Big 10 graduate suburbanites feeling guilty over leaving Lakeview or Lincoln Park for the likes of Vernon Hills or Hinsdale. We’ve raised one kid in a two bedroom condo in Steeterville, and have another toddler that pushed us to move for school and more space–to the West Loop.

    We have a three bedroom condo (a combined one and two BDR) that gives us a living room and a family room, a big walk-in closet/storage area, and a small den with a balcony. Our condo building even has a park on a mezzanine with a dog park and an area big enough for our toddler to ride his tricycle in the spring…and a 24 hour fitness club with kids classes is around the corner. And we’re in Skinner’s district, plus stroller distance to two kid’s parks, as well as maybe a 20 minute walk to the Art Institute, less to Greektown, or a cab ride to the museums. So need for ‘guilt’.

    Of course, that’s not for everyone, but if you look, you can make your own future in the West Loop, Southport, Lincoln Square, etc.

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  74. “Out of curiosity, who here actually grew up in a major city? It’s interesting to hear people debate the value of city-life for children – my read is that most people here aren’t speaking from a place of experience when they identify what those benefits are.”

    Might it have more to do with socioeconomics? I grew up in a small-to-midsize city, not major like Chicago. But life in my neighborhood was in many ways a slightly suburbanized and minimally more hopeful version of the neighborhood depicted on Shameless. So whether it was the hood actually I grew up in, or the Back of the Yards, in either case I wouldn’t be a big booster of raising kids in the city. But if one can live in a premium city neighborhood and afford the various kid-friendly urban institutions – that changes everything. Raising kids near the poverty level in the burbs or in rural areas is no paradise.

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  75. Miumu – I have a vision of what each of you look like and always wonder if it’s accurate. perhaps Sabrina can schedule that meet up you suggested for cc’ers at a private room of a restaurant in the Green Zone. Upon arrival she would confirm the attendees names vs their email addresses making sure not announce their identity.

    People would talk over cocktails and start to make assumptions. At the end of the party Sabrina would put out all the names on a table. Each guest would place one of the names on each guests back. This ensures that when someone is correct or incorrect that the guest does not give it away with an obvious expression.

    In the end People would not have to admit who they were but it would be interesting to see who others thought you identified as from the group.

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  76. Or even better, a winter masquerade!

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  77. “We have a three bedroom condo (a combined one and two BDR) that gives us a living room and a family room, a big walk-in closet/storage area, and a small den with a balcony.”

    Stiart D: – no one is saying you can’t raise children in the city. Plenty of people do it and in small spaces. But the problem is, if they are already living in a $450,000 2/2 condo in Lakeview, Lincoln Park or River North and they DO want more space or better schools, many people are, essentially, priced out of the move-up house in a neighborhood with good schools.

    In other words, not everyone could afford to combine 2 units, as you have done, and live with 2 kids in the West Loop.

    I know someone who bought a townhouse in the Southport area 5 years ago for $450,000. It is easily worth $550,000 now. But they want more space and privacy so they want a SFH. Even with the townhouse’s appreciation, and mortgage rates remaining low, their salaries haven’t hardly risen in that time period. They are still making $160,000 a year.

    They can’t afford the $750,000 to $900,000 move-up house in Southport, Roscoe Village or anywhere in the area. The $600,000 SFH in these neighborhoods basically doesn’t really exist anymore. It is a townhouse or a million dollar house.

    That’s why they move to the burbs. You can move to LaGrange, Western Springs or Downers Grove and get award winning schools, be close to the train and in a historic downtown in a small bungalow for like $500,000.

    This buyer would rather move to LaGrange or Oak Park than Portage Park.

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  78. “The likelihood of a white woman being murdered in Chicago is what? Nonexistent?”

    There was a 77 year old woman beaten in Southport just a week ago when they broke in and stole her car. She’s lucky her injuries weren’t worse and that she’s going to make a recovery. Did they intend to murder her? Probably not but when you beat up an older woman, you’re asking for trouble.

    What are the odds someone breaks into your apartment in the midst of million dollar mansions and where famous baseball and hockey players live at 6 am on a Saturday morning?

    It’s probably a long shot but it just happened.

    http://www.cwbchicago.com/2016/01/77-year-old-woman-beaten-in.html

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  79. The Dr that is not the only material question, way to over-simplify. If crime goes up in your formerly peaceful neighborhood, denigrating your quality of life and stagnating property values as the Section Eighters move in, that is immaterial just because there is no corresponding area-wide trend in the same direction? Really?

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  80. “Out of curiosity, who here actually grew up in a major city? It’s interesting to hear people debate the value of city-life for children – my read is that most people here aren’t speaking from a place of experience when they identify what those benefits are.”

    I grew up in Chicago, along with thousands upon thousands of other kids.

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  81. My sibs & I grew up on south side of Chicago, first as last specks of salt in Hamilton Park/ Englewood, then in Beverly. I witnessed the fear and hate driven block-busting re-segregation part of Chicago history repeat until 70’s when significant % of Beverly SF owners refused to panic & sell.

    My wife & I raised our kids in Beverly, attending a mix of Catholic GS & magnet CPS until they approached HS age. We calculated Catholic HS cost/ benefit. We decided our kids would benefit more attending superior schools of NW ‘burbs. Unknown to us when deciding, they also gained a diverse group of peers with higher aspirations (including Asian & other immigrants & horror of HH’s horrors, kids of Jewish heritage). Their peers helped motivate our kids to apply & push themselves. Moving to ‘burbs worked out well for us & ours.

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  82. southbound, it’s unusual for couples from the southside to move northwest.

    I personally grew up in a gang infested $hithole of a suburb surrounded by far nicer towns so I had the benefit of going to a decent high school (although the other high schools in my district looked down upon us as merely ‘the scary gang school’). Growing up the way I did made me street tough and gave me extensive knowledge about gangs (folk love!), drugs, sex, petty and major crime, and all of the other degenerate aspects of life that rich kids from the north shore only think they know about or see in movies. Think the movie Stand by Me except being in the 1990’s instead of the 1950’s but I was one of the bad kids. I’m not going to say that I was doing drivebys or anything like the crazy stuff that goes on in the wild 100’s but for the place and the time, I still on a semi-regular basis come into contact with the multitude of degenerates I grew up with.

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  83. “They allow the homeless to just wander around aimlessly, smoking their god damned cigarettes.”

    Those types ALWAYS have money for smokes. Incidentally, I have never met a smoker with good finances.

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  84. “The Dr that is not the only material question, way to over-simplify. If crime goes up in your formerly peaceful neighborhood, denigrating your quality of life and stagnating property values as the Section Eighters move in, that is immaterial just because there is no corresponding area-wide trend in the same direction? Really?”

    I’m considering this from a municipal-community level. At that level, what you’re asking is: Should we be more concerned about controlling for total wealth or the retention of wealth by those currently possessing it? I know what my answer is.

    I wasn’t saying that no one here grew up in the city, or that it’s better to grow up one place over another, only that your personal experience is going to inform your priorities. I grew up in a different, smaller city, but the things I value in a city don’t seem to be shared by anyone here, and I was wondering why. As an example, I could be, but have no interest in, living in the heart of the greenzone. I see it as an area that often maximizes values that I tend to consider “suburban.” Anonny, I think it definitely is tied to socioeconomics, but I have to imagine that cross-sections with exposure. I am also slightly younger, so perhaps that is another variable.

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  85. “I have never met a smoker with good finances.”

    What, cuz the Wall Street smokers are all coke heads, too?

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  86. “the things I value in a city don’t seem to be shared by anyone here”

    ???

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  87. “What, cuz the Wall Street smokers are all coke heads, too?”

    I don’t think it has anything to do with income. There are Wall Street ballers with tons of debt and nothing to their name. Smoking is a sign of mental and physical weakness.

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  88. “Smoking is a sign of mental and physical weakness.”

    Or a formerly socially acceptable outlet for an addictive personality.

    (note: *not* a smoker, or an ex-smoker)

    Think you just have selection bias bc you hate smokers *that much*. Which is understandable.

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  89. ““Out of curiosity, who here actually grew up in a major city?”

    does growing up in Humboldt Park count?

    HD, your “$hithole of a suburb” was probably still vastly better than what I experienced

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  90. Smoking is a sign of an inconsiderate jerk who only cares about himself.

    This is what I imagine that smokers think:

    “I am better than everyone else and I don’t care about anyone else. My needs always come first. I don’t care if my smoking gives other people asthma attacks or migraines. I don’t care if I put carcinogens in my loved one’s bodies. I don’t care if I make myself sick and my family miss me after I die of lung cancer. The world revolves around me. My needs are extremely important and don’t care about anyone else’s needs.”

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  91. I’ve always thought cigarettes were cool. That’s also the brand I smoked for many years, Kool menthols. Are those things still around? It’s been 18 years since I picked up a pack of menthol cigarettes.

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  92. Think you just have selection bias bc you hate smokers *that much*.

    Confirmation bias, not selection bias. [/pedantry]

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  93. “Confirmation bias, not selection bias. [/pedantry]”

    Nah, she only encounters the losers**, and stays away from anyone who smokes and might not be a loser**.

    So, not exactly either, but closer to ‘selection’.

    btw, I know/have known at least several non-loser smokers, even among the younger set. But Milkster is mostly correct.

    **Feeling Trumpian.

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  94. “I have never met a smoker with good finances.”

    I’m sure they are out there but statistically there is this at play: http://www.countertobacco.org/sites/default/files/Disparities_SmokingByEducationLevel_Chart_0.JPG

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  95. My God. Some of the posters here need to move to suburban Texas. All the important boxes are ticked. Nice and safe, low taxes, gigantic yards and all the damned soccer games you could want for your kids. Vast, criss-crossing freeways mean you can drive one of your three cars to work in twenty minutes and park for free. Hell, the men are Real Men. Why are you in Chicago at all?

    Now how about this. I have a good friend who makes sound money, as does his wife. 80-90k each. They’re raising their kid (just one) in a large 2/2 in the GC.

    And you know what? Everything’s great. Park, Art Institute, Opera, Symphony, library visits. They patronise neighborhood businesses and go on downtown expeditions. They rent a car when they really need one. They’ve saved enough (I know, right?) to send the little one to private school, if she doesn’t test into the LPHS IB program or one of the selectives.

    They do this because they had no desire to move to a deadening cultural wasteland. There’s a spurious prima facie case vomited around here that kids need 8000 sq ft and a yard to grow up in. That’s just bollocks. Though I do suppose that soccer games don’t really figure into some people’s lives in any way, shape or form.

    Frankly, if you want to give your kid a culturally rich upbringing, there’s no alternative to the city… unless you move to one of NYC, SF, Boston or whatever. Kids have thrived in multifamily buildings for centuries. And no, you don’t have to be rich to make it work.

    “Out of curiosity, who here actually grew up in a major city? It’s interesting to hear people debate the value of city-life for children – my read is that most people here aren’t speaking from a place of experience when they identify what those benefits are.”

    I grew up in the center of a global city (not in America). I could never, and would never, raise a child in a suburb. Forget my own ‘missing the city’ — I couldn’t, in good conscience, see my child grow up a stunted cultural husk.

    AND I still sleep till noon, well past the age of thirty. And I haven’t been to bed yet. Funny thing: my parents did this, too. Slovenliness must run in the family. I guess if you have to get up at 5:30 am for soccer then I’ll swirl a cognac later tonight in sympathy for you.

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  96. Connectedspace – well said. My in-laws are in TX and the depiction is right on the money. And I can relate to the sleep in Saturday’s as that was my lifestyle even after our first kid. And I swore to staying in the city forever. Heck my username is jp3CHICAGO. Until 2015 I had a 606 zip code all my life. And I was born before Woodstock.

    That all changes after having a third kid. Did I mention that two and three came as a package deal? Yes, they were twins and that changed our outlooks completely.

    On the upside they will not ge typicasuburban kiddies. They do not fear the train or going downtown to explore culture and diversity. We take them everywhere and they adapt well.

    And unfortunately It means that I’ll be having my 10 tear tawny port at Bennigans or Outback at 8pm instead of a conga cat 1am in a cool hip bar. But I wouldn’t trade it for anything!

    Thanks CCers for the entertainment this week. One of. The many kid germs finally caught up to me and I’ve been home sick. This site was part of my medicine and a great distraction.

    Now back to work!

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  97. Nice spelling above ….. Thanks spell check. I hate that almost as much as captcha

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  98. Speaking of entertainment value…I was reading that thread where everyone got into that detailed discussion of public urination the other day. Had me laughing out loud. Never found Cribchatter that funny before.

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  99. And I love Texas. Grew up in Dallas. Might go back to Texas someday but not Dallas.

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  100. Dr please expound on why you find GZ values “suburban”. To me it’s anything but unless you count safety and only an idiot would want to live in an unsafe neighborhood and the GZ is compromised vs. many burbs in this area regardless.

    To me, the GZ offers (vs. the burbs) the following positive, generally non-suburban attributes: transit options, walkability, density, numerous non-chain dining, drinking and entertainment options, and a wide range of architectural styles, configurations and sizes in which one can live amongst generally quiet neighbors uninterested in acquiring or destroying your possessions. What the hell’s wrong with that? Out of curiosity, what’s your ideal neighborhood, cost no object?

    BTW, 40 plus years living in large cities for me, not a burb fan in the least-apart from Evanston and maybe Oak Park.

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  101. “Dr please expound on why you find GZ values “suburban”. To me it’s anything but unless you count safety and only an idiot would want to live in an unsafe neighborhood and the GZ is compromised vs. many burbs in this area regardless.”

    I think the “greenzone” primarily appeals to people who are interested in perceived safety. The idea that areas of the city outside of the “greenzone” are unlivable strikes me as the quintessential suburban attitude. Nothing feels more suburban to me than fear of the city. I’m not saying that certain areas of the city aren’t unsafe, but there are far more livable neighborhoods than what is contained in the “greenzone,” just with different optics.

    Additionally, I think the “greenzone” appeals to people interested in a high-degree of racial, socio-economic and cultural homogeneity, which I think of as a suburban instinct.

    I would caveat that you can have a genuine interest in living in specific neighborhoods in the “greenzone” without embodying a “suburban” attitude: what I’m calling a “suburban” attitude only comes in play when you draw a go/no-go boundary around otherwise dissimilar neighborhoods – neighborhoods selected for perceived safety and homogeneity.

    The greenzone is an objectively amazing place to live. Nothing is inherently wrong with any of the qualities the “greenzone” is charging money for, they simply aren’t the qualities that interest me in a city.

    The greenzone maximizes the side-effects of cultural and socioeconomic wealth, and I am more interested in the side-effects of cultural and socioeconomic diversity.

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  102. But greenzone sounds less racist than whitezone…

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  103. “I think the “greenzone” appeals to people interested in a high-degree of racial, socio-economic and cultural homogeneity, which I think of as a suburban instinct. ”

    Sorry Doc, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Go drive around any hispanic or african american neighborhood on the south or west sides and tell me that there’s not a high degree of racial, socio-economic and cultural homogeneity. In fact, in some neighborhoods on the south or west sides, there is absolutely no diversity whatsoever. How many white people live in Englewood or black in the back of the yards?

    And you’re wrong about the suburbs too. The near north suburbs or Niles, Glenview, Des Plaines, Lincolnwood, etc are so diverse that the high schools speak dozens of languages. Unlike Schurz High School in my beloved Old Irving Park that only had one language: Spanish.

    “what I’m calling a “suburban” attitude only comes in play when you draw a go/no-go boundary around otherwise dissimilar neighborhoods – neighborhoods selected for perceived safety and homogeneity.”

    Yeah, because lots of murders, mugging and property crime happens those crappy neighborhoods. Most people from all races try to avoid those crapholes. In fact, many of those former residents have moved out far – very far in fact. Studies have repeated shown that the exurbs in majors cities around teh US are the most diverse areas in the country. People just get in their car and drive until they can afford a house, doesn’t matter if they’re black, white, hispanic, asian or whatever. Sure they have to deal with the worst of the box stores and they have to drive everywhere, but they live in far more diverse neighborhoods than nearly anyone else in the city.

    I don’t know where you got your hoitty toitty attitude from, but it’s not based rationality, but rather, emotion.

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  104. Dr, honestly you calling the GZ “suburban” for the reasons you state makes about as much sense as me calling your beloved (albeit heretofore nameless) allegedly superior urban non-GZ areas “ghetto”-likely not fair in either case. A desire for safety is NOT a suburban value, and the GZ is far less safe than comparably priced suburbs anyway so that argument only goes so far.

    I think you are mistaking widespread apathy toward certain types of diversity as an active desire for homogeneity, they simply are not the same thing. The reality is that your prioritization of diversity is not widely shared by a majority of people of any race, who are far more concerned with safety, convenience, entertainment options and (sometimes) cost first. Of course some GZ dwellers do in fact think much like you say, but that doesn’t mean everyone, or even a majority of GZ inhabitants, do.

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  105. “Sorry Doc, you have no idea what you’re talking about.”

    Could be, could be.

    Chicago is a remarkably racially segregated city, no doubt. However the widespread presence of segregation does not discount the possibility that people who seek out a self-defined “green zone,” are doing so as a way to seek homogeneity. Diversity or lack thereof in other areas is a red herring fallacy, and irrelevant to why people cordone a “green zone.” Some of Chicago’s segregation is by choice, and some isn’t.

    I never said the suburbs and exurbs weren’t diverse. I think you’re conflating the reality of differing, complex, and, yes, occasionally diverse suburbs with what I’m describing as a “suburban attitude.” The attitude I’m getting at is something halfway between the really nasty shit that drove white people to flee the city in the era of blockbusting, and the much less nasty, but still suburban attitude that causes people to flee the city the minute they have children. I am constructing a bogeyman of both the worst and the most stereotypical motivations that have historically driven and currently drive suburban-transplantation, and hypothesizing that, that bogeyman is what drives people to define “greenzones,” and to define anything outside them as some kind of “other.”

    That really has nothing to do with the overall diversity of any given suburb or neighborhood at any given time. Instead, what I’m discussing is the motivation-set that informs moving decisions. Lots of people who move to the suburbs don’t have a “suburban attitude,” and lots of people who move to “green zone” neighborhoods don’t have a “suburban attitude,” but I think I’m suggesting that anyone overtly concerned with defining and inhabiting a “greenzone” has a “suburban attitude,” and will decrease the cultural richness of their neighborhood. I think I see that effect in the cultural fabric of many though not all “greenzone” neighborhoods.

    HD, your point on the diversity of exurbs is particularly interesting to me, as I would say the “suburban attitude” will likely be a big part of the great inversion, as we see the black and hispanic sub- and ex- urban flight you’ve identified lead to isolated and segregated poverty in far-flung metropolitan pockets. Which is doubly sad, because as those people are moving to the exurbs in an attempt to access a degree of socioeconomic and racial diversity, the wealthier white people are filtering back into “green zones.”

    On crime and safety: http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/community

    The top of those lists sure don’t look like what everyone here describes as the “green zone.”

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  106. “Lots of people who move to the suburbs don’t have a “suburban attitude,” and lots of people who move to “green zone” neighborhoods don’t have a “suburban attitude,” but I think I’m suggesting that anyone overtly concerned with defining and inhabiting a “greenzone” has a “suburban attitude,” and will decrease the cultural richness of their neighborhood. ”

    this made my head hurt

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  107. Those lists are slphabetical with no option to sort otherwise Dr. Perhaps if you just named a few of your favorite non-GZ hoods we could discuss their relative merits.

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  108. “Additionally, I think the “greenzone” appeals to people interested in a high-degree of racial, socio-economic and cultural homogeneity, which I think of as a suburban instinct.”

    This is not true for many parts of GZ. I love SL in part because it is very diverse.

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  109. Doc, my head is hurting too! Mt greenwood, forest glen and edison park exist in their present form today PRECISELY because city workers fled to the city limits during the 60’s+ to replicate as much as the suburban lifestyle as possible. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to mt greenwood, but its a cultural wasteland of white people if there’s ever been one. I’d live west of Route 31 hands down before I lived in mt greenwood. It’s for some people, but its for no one on cribchatter.

    And the irony of this conversation is that because the city is so segregated and full of people off all colors who choose to self-segregate i.e. your suburban attitude, the entire city is technically the ‘suburban attitude’ while the diverse, vibrant, nice, safe suburbs such as skokie, niles, des plaines, lincolnwood etc are the exact opposite of a greenzone.

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  110. Dr., what do you define as diverse?

    My neighborhood, University Village, tried to go for diversity, but people still remain segregated. There is Pilsen to the south, a crime infested neighborhood to the west, a homeless shelter to the east, and college students to the north.

    My little area feels very homogeneous to me though. Everyone is college-educated, middle class. I never interact with the neighbors surrounding us and I don’t get the impression that they want to interact with us.

    Crime seeps in from the gang-infested neighborhood to the west. It’s a big frustration that the police do nothing about it.

    I’m really torn about diversity. Truthfully, I want to live around intelligent, middle-class people of all races/sexualities. I don’t care for living around poor-uneducated people or religious people. I’m just being honest.

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  111. lets do some more stereotyping…

    People that have kids (or “breeders” as Bobbo would call em’) are the ones who want their areas the most suburban and spread the suburban mindset the most!

    FACT

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  112. Jenny, I always felt that University Village was extremely diverse. Or do you simply mean that people don’t interact?

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  113. Ha, seems I struck a nerve, either for content or the increasingly convoluted argument I’m making (probably both). Admittedly, I’m making it up on the fly, and homedelete is right, it probably is emotional – it’s an expression of frustration with what I see as the often explicit embrace of neighborhood stigma on CC that reminds me of redlining.

    So, I realize my argument has drifted into some abstract territory, so let me try to clarify. When I say a “suburban attitude” drives people to move to a “greenzone” I’m not saying the neighborhoods they move to are necessarily suburban, I’m saying the selection of those neighborhoods is made on criteria I associate with suburban priorities. I’m not saying there aren’t diverse suburbs or that there city neighborhoods that are literally the product of “suburban attitude” outside of the “greenzone.” These things are all true, but irrelevant to the motivation that may or may not lie behind the definition and selection of a “green zone.”

    What I am saying is that when people discuss the “greenzone” they’re discussing suburban priorities. I mean, a wealthy white fortress in a sea of brown is literally what the name is.

    I’m saying that the act of defining a “greenzone” is the “suburban attitude.” It doesn’t even matter what neighborhoods you personally identify as being in the “greenzone.”

    Where my argument likely goes off the rails is when I suggest that this attitude is in some significant way driving the overall culture of what everyone here typically defines as “greenzone” neighborhoods. It probably isn’t. But, maybe?

    I think it’s important to remember which segregation is self-selected, and which isn’t. While it’s a common trope to suggest that poor and black segregation is as self-selected as wealthy white self-segregation, studies suggest otherwise: http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/06/its-mostly-white-people-who-prefer-to-live-in-segregated-neighborhoods/396887/

    Sid V, those lists are sortable by any of the categories.

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  114. “Jenny, I always felt that University Village was extremely diverse. Or do you simply mean that people don’t interact?”

    I would say that University Village is more diverse than average in terms of race, but not really diverse in terms of income/education.

    I don’t interact at all with the nearby neighborhoods. I walk my dogs all over UV/UC, but never walk into Pilsen or the neighborhood to the west with all the crime (not sure what that area is called).

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  115. ” never walk into Pilsen or the neighborhood to the west with all the crime (not sure what that area is called).”

    Yeah, the media calls that area (west of Racine) University Village too and it really burns me because you always read these headlines about Man Killed In University Village and then it’s out there. I don’t really think there is a name for it but I don’t think most people in the area would call that University Village.

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  116. Sid: “Those lists are slphabetical with no option to sort”

    Perhaps not sortable on mobile, but definitely sortable.

    And, it’s kookoo to complain about the ‘suburban attitude’ in the GZ and cite to a list of the most suburban feeling (in basically all ways) hoods in the city: Edison Park, Mount Greenwood, Forest Glen and Norwood Park all may as well be actual suburbs.

    Other than that, I think the Doc has a valid point, with the unspoken addition that there aren’t a lot of hoods in Chicago that fit his criteria, due to the overall level of racial and economic segregation we have now.

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  117. isn’t that Little Italy there? I never thought it was that bad

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  118. I think the development is called Roosevelt Square.

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  119. “isn’t that Little Italy there?”

    That’s just a bit further north.

    “Roosevelt Square.”

    The replacement for the ABLA Homes.

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  120. Yeah. Little Italy is a nice area. Roosevelt Square isn’t so nice. It’s a shame they built it so close to Little Italy.

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  121. “I witnessed the fear and hate driven block-busting re-segregation part of Chicago history repeat until 70’s when significant % of Beverly SF owners refused to panic & sell.”

    southbound: Do you know what HATE incident caused the exodus from St. Sabina? In 1965, 17 yr. old Frank Kelly was shot dead in just another interracial black-on-white crime. A 16 yr. old white girl was shot in the leg. This happened in front of the rec center. White people concluded the experimentation with liberalism was a failure. It is a false ideology.

    Steve Sailer, who is probably most brilliant writer out there today, also tells the tale of his in-laws who LOST 1/2 of their entire net worth after selling their house in Austin neighborhood in the lat 60’s.

    Unless you personally can guarantee that someone won’t lose a child, nor lose their equity, then you have to right to push your idiotic views on others about race. We all see that you personally, did your own “white flight” to Beverly and then the suburbs. You hypocrite!

    Also, Chicago’s Jews are the most notorious of all the self-segregating and “white flight” ethnicities in all of Chicago’s long history, more than the Irish, Italians, Poles, Greeks, Lithuanians, etc. By far. It still occurs to this day if you knew anything.

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  122. “And, it’s kookoo to complain about the ‘suburban attitude’ in the GZ and cite to a list of the most suburban feeling (in basically all ways) hoods in the city: Edison Park, Mount Greenwood, Forest Glen and Norwood Park all may as well be actual suburbs.”

    I didn’t link to crime rates to suggest that the areas with the lowest crime rates are somehow ideal or “un-suburban” neighborhoods, or that the people who move to them don’t have a “suburban attitude”; I was merely pointing out that the claim that people select “greenzone” neighborhoods on a rational evaluation of safety is a canard. Instead they consider perceived safety, which is a catchall category that includes all sorts of evaluations that have little to do with crime or safety.

    For me personally, I think that vast majority of the city is safe enough to not worry about crime, and that from a statistical perspective there are few places for me as a white person that represent unallowable risk. But, that’s a different conversation.

    And, again, I’m not commenting on whether or not any one neighborhood is or isn’t “suburban,” I’m commenting on whether or not the motivation for selecting a neighborhood is “suburban,” and then, secondarily, speculating on how that is affecting and may affect neighborhood culture over time.

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  123. “the claim that people select “greenzone” neighborhoods on a rational evaluation of safety is a canard.”

    There are three major reasons that, eg Edison Park, is not “GZ”: (1) too far from loop and city amenities, (2) too suburban feeling, (3) lower prices bc of 1 & 2.

    So, someone wanting “city” life–even in the cocoon of ‘safety’–ain’t choosing those hoods. Basically, I see them as irrelevant to (how I read) your point. The “correct” comparison is among adjoining, or otherwise equivalently “convenient”, hoods. So, Humboldt Park and East Garfield Park and Pilsen and Bronzeville, but not so much Auburn Gresham, Belmont Cragin, or West Elsdon.

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  124. “Smoking is a sign of an inconsiderate jerk who only cares about himself.”

    That’s what I associate with Ironman and marathon narcissists. All they think about is themselves, their training, their diet, etc. It’s totally a unsocial mindset. When I visit a lawyers office and he has some LaSalle Bank marathon crap framed on his wall, it makes me just roll my eyes.

    “suburban Texas.”

    Hey, lay off suburban TX. Today, suburban TX is turning into multi-culti hellholes similar to Schaumburg and Orland, but it used to produce many positive contributors to society, including many athletes, politicians, and probably the best-looking women in America. If you want your kids to be a good swimmer, play baseball, be a pro golfer or tennis player, etc. etc. you are a much better parent by going to TX and not raising your kid in a “3 bd. West Loop condo”. Let’s get real.

    “I don’t know if you’ve ever been to mt greenwood, but its a cultural wasteland of white people if there’s ever been one. ”

    What are you talking about? They still have a safe neighborhood, they have their parade, the Catholic schools are still open and successful. Considering all the garbage they are surrounded with on all sides, I’d say the place is an oasis, relatively.

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  125. “That’s what I associate with Ironman and marathon narcissists. All they think about is themselves, their training, their diet, etc. It’s totally a unsocial mindset.”

    This made me laugh out loud.

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  126. “many positive contributors to society, including many athletes”

    Yeah, I think that a *ton* of Ironman competitors grew up in suburban Texas.

    And Lance Armstrong is from suburban Texas.

    QED!

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  127. I love the irony of a narcissist accusing others of being narcissistic! And the irony of a segregator accusing others of self segregating.

    Mt Greenwood is ‘an oasis surrounded by garbage on all sides’? Yeah an idiot from Bridgeview might believe Oak Lawn adjacent west of Mt G is garbage but no rational person would agree. Or maybe he’s referring to the garbage-ish owners of the $350K+/- SFRs in Morgan Park/ Beverly adjacent east of Mt G? Or he’s thinking West Beverly, the tight community composed of 60 year old brick ranches adjacent north & south of Mt G is garbage – where Tim McCarthy, who took a bullet for Reagan & Paul Vallas live or lived? Only an idiot would give a hallelujah to the statement Mt Greenwood is an oasis of any kind.

    And more advice on being a better parent? Because who’s better qualified to help improve others parenting than someone who never raised kids?

    No one can coach speed into people born without it just like no one can change someone whose being is permeated with hatefulness & stupidity.

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  128. Mt Greenwood is a good, safe neighborhood but it’s a cultural wasteland out there. Unless you have some connection to the area, or have to live in the city for some reason, it’s usually pretty far down the list of places to live. It’s not a bad place to live, it’s just the exact opposite of a green zone neighborhood.

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  129. Lol!

    I thought “Oak Lawn” was made fun of by CC’s anti-white racist/liberal contingent as some backward throwback locale. Now our resident hypocrite southbound is defending it?

    PS anon(tfo), cut the crap. There’s s big difference between people who grow up healthy-and-strong in warm suburban TX versus some chicago “ironman” narcissist lawyer who does his/her ironmans as a 38 year old and then plasters the photos on their “holiday” cards.

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  130. Here is a good one. “rahm” rides with all these douche narcissists:

    The tight-knit group includes CEOs, engineers, lawyers, a college administrator, and a brain surgeon. Gray hair is not in short supply: Most of these guys are baby boomers or older Gen-Xers with plenty to spend on bikes that can cost as much as cars.

    The riders’ teasing turns to Todd Wiener, 52, a lean environmental lawyer ….

    A guy named “Todd” and “Wiener”… a “lean” “environmental lawyer”. (barf bag pls).

    http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/July-2013/Chicago-Cycling-Culture/

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  131. Why the hate for the ironmen? At least they are in shape and are not costing the tax payers money because of their poor health habits.

    As for a narcissists go, they seem the most innocuous.

    Now, those pot smoking narcissists make me blind with rage.

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  132. Taking on a sport super seriously in middle age to me totally smells of a midlife crisis. I’m not saying you can’t ride a bike, excise or job, but the all out 100% all or nothing iron man at 42 is absurd. I’ve been mountain biking since my early 20s and will continue to do so, but i’m not suddenly at 45 going to start going crazy about it.

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  133. Vegans.

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  134. I don’t like people who are obsessed with exercise (or anything for that matter). I think it’s good that they are staying in shape though. I hate the bikers because they are obnoxious, but the runners don’t bother me.

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  135. “Taking on a sport super seriously in middle age to me totally smells of a midlife crisis. I’m not saying you can’t ride a bike, excise or job, but the all out 100% all or nothing iron man at 42 is absurd. I’ve been mountain biking since my early 20s and will continue to do so, but i’m not suddenly at 45 going to start going crazy about it.”

    A large percentage of endurance athletes tend to be in the mid-30s to mid-50s range. Maybe it is a midlife thing, or maybe it’s that (1) the bikes are expensive, (2) the entry fees are high, (3) it doesn’t comport so well with the heavy partying of a 20 something, and (4) it requires a time commitment that tends to be challenging for younger folks, who might not have as much flexibility/control over their professional life and have younger kids. I know a few people who didn’t start running marathons until their 40s, and a couple others who didn’t start doing tri’s until their 40s, I think due to some or all of the reasons noted above.

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  136. I started road biking & periodically doing century (100 mi) bike rides once our kids were launched, in my mid-50s, after 15 years of only exercising indoors. The benefits are meeting great people & seeing great scenery (mainly on bike club rides) & also getting into best condition/ health since I was 16 y.o. My wife saw me benefit & she’s joined me.

    Costs: Entry road bike cost me $650 new (Spec. Allez) & once I knew I’d stick with it I bought a used Spec. Roubaix ($900). Bike club costs $20/yr. Ride entry fees cost about $20 (Harmon Hundred, North Shore Century, or Apple Cider Century- all well run w/ 25,50,75 & 100 mi supported rides) to $100+ for charity century rides. Time commitment is 1-3 hours here and there, riding bikes either by ourselves on lakefront path or on club rides. What’s easier, cheaper & less midlife crisis-ish than returning to riding bikes?

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  137. I totally agree with you anonny, those are all reasons to explaining the current demographics of endurance sports athletes. But endurance sports in and of themselves are a pretty extreme sport. It’s not like playing in a local basketball league, or riding a bike. It’s endurance which by definition is a bit extreme, and suddenly picking up such a hobby in the middle age, again, to me, is a mid-life crisis. Most should just buy a Corvette and take mid-20’s mistress instead.

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  138. “Generation X graduated from college during the early 1990s recession or, the younger ones, during the 2000-2001 recession.”

    Talk about a statement needing a reality check. As if there were somehow a 5-10 year gap when no one graduated? And this gap is during the boom years from the mid-90’s to 2000. Some of us graduated during that period and the attitude of prosperity extant during our formative adult years would fortunately carry through for the long term.

    “….who lives in Northbrook says that its very, very fine public library is nothing but full of poz promotion in its Teen section, all homo and gender this/that. It’s terrible….true conservatives only really have 2 options”

    There’s nothing conservative about hate dude. Or ignorance for that matter. True conservatives can recognize when gullible conservative leaning types are being played for votes based on their fears. Those days are now over. Homophobia no longer gets votes. It really sounds like you need to get with the program, or go live in isolation.

    “….while the diverse, vibrant, nice, safe suburbs such as skokie, niles, des plaines, lincolnwood”. I don’t think Lincolnwood is diverse at all, unless you are including the Walmart customers and Marianos workers. And certainly not vibrant unless you are counting the Bar Mitzvah circuit.

    There a big national conflation of “diversity” and “poor” and “black”. Diversity should really mean a variety of of whatever, racial, economic. Example a bag full of randomly colored jellybeans is diverse. But somehow in much of the mainstream it has come to mean only poor & black. For example paraphrasing a Walmart spokesperson “We have really achieved DIVERSITY in this new store. In fact all 367 employees are African American.” Referring to the store at north and cicero. So now a bag full of the same color of jellybeans is called “very diverse” if it’s a specific color, and not diverse if it’s any other color.

    “Diversity” has come to mean the opposite of what is should mean. But what sounds more acceptable “We are going to specifically put poor black people into a white neighborhood”. Or we are going to increase diversity.

    There is actual diversity is in places like Uptown, east Rogers, and the not so nice parts of Evanston and Skokie. There you have some variety of economic levels and races. But I don’t think I’d want to live in those areas. Ideally i’d like to live in a neighborhood where every single person is wealthy. And if they’re all mainline-whites that’s just fine too (perhaps with a few percent of accomplished east Asians mixed in as a token). Then if I want diversity I can get in my car and go find it for a restaurant or a night out or whatever.

    There is something to be said for segregation. And I don’t mean forced segregation, which is rightfully illegal, but natural economic segregation, which for a variety of historical reasons indirectly results in racial segregation. From the dawn of the first city, there have been nice parts of the city and not so nice parts of the city. It only makes sense that people who can afford the nice part will choose to live there and the poor part will likewise be clustered in the most affordable (least desirable) area. Which makes financial sense for the poor person too. If you were poor wouldn’t you want to have ready access to cheap places, dollar stores, payday lenders, cheap liquor, stuff you want and can afford. To try to turn that on it’s head and turn the whole city to crap is only going to cost everyone more (including the poor people). People are best able to evaluate and assess the risk of people most like themselves.

    Glorification of poverty. There has been a recent trend of glorifying being poor. Articles like “how being poor is really expensive” etc have been going viral. What a joke. Imagine if actual poor people in this world, just as the half-of the global population living on under $2/day knew that rich people in America were falling over themselves about how they read online that it is tough to be “American poor” which usually also means having things like a car, a roof, and more than enough food everyday. And that “American poor” people are propagating this very eloquently written heartbreaking crap about how their life isn’t as great as a rich person’s, because afterall they don’t have everything and every convenience they want.

    What’s the deal with people in distant ‘burbs such as naperville and palatine saying that train time is “only 40 minutes” to the loop. While is may be true once the train is moving in a best case, what about all of the ancillary mini-commutes to get there. I’ve seen the metra parking lot in Naperville and some people must have a half-mile walk from their car to the station. That’s 5-10 minutes just to walk to the station AFTER you park your car. There a big difference between 40 minutes and a 1 hr 10 mintue commute.

    Now as far as the “bust outs” peeing and wanking in the streets. I have to add an anecdote about that. An ex-girlfriend is from the distant west burbs (a nice one but pretty far). She had a mom who would occasionally run into a grocery store leaving her and a sibling in the car (something considered safer in the burbs). Well a suburban bust-out drove up got out and started wanking to her. She was only like 10 years old! Her mom couldn’t even believe it until she got into some liquideous detail. I knew this girl when she was around 19 (I was late 20’s). She explained that she’s had to deal with creeps her whole suburban life. Naturally she was pretty smoking hot, but the other issue was a very young full development. It turns out that the insecticides/pesticides in the farmland surrounding the ex-urbs makes women have onset of menarche significantly younger. And screw up their hormones in other ways too. As if kids didn’t growing up fast enough already. The same is not happening in the city where the air quality is better. If you don’t believe me google it. I’ve also personally seen an sexual assault in progress in a very nice west suburban Target. A middle-aged woman next to me furtively whispering in a choked panicked voice to the clerk doing my return that she needs help and security stat. And then the creepster very suspiciously literally creeping up 10 seconds later. My point is that these sort of crimes are happening in the suburbs and exurbs too. Just in different environs. Instead of on the street, it’s going to be inside a bigbox, in the parking lot, in a voluminous basement, or in all of the places in between where there is no one to notify for help. And in the suburbs the bust outs have cars because they are saving so much on rent.

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  139. “the half-of the global population living on under $2/day”

    ‘According to the most recent estimates, in 2012, 12.7 percent of the world’s population lived at or below $1.90 a day’

    http://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/overview

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  140. tl;dr

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  141. “tl;dr”

    Either Brad F is *not* tehHof, or the ruse is getting more elaborate.

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  142. Creepers are going to creep in every neighborhood. I can’t even count the times I was creeped on as a child/teenager. I don’t think you can avoid creepers no matter where you live. You can usually avoid gangs/shootings, but not sexual assault.

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  143. There is no way Brad F is the same poster. None.

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  144. “I don’t think you can avoid creepers no matter where you live.”

    I hear that Long Grove is full of creepers, and they hide in the shrubbery!

    And when not in the shrubbery, they dribble basketballs, while smoking (two cigs at a time!), on their fixed gear bikes.

    HD–can you confirm??

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  145. Lincolnwood is an expensive plans. Lincolnwood is the suburb the nuveau riche from Skokie move to when they’ve ‘made it’.

    Brad is a different poster, he’s the guys the peasants are going to attack with the pitchfork first when Trump posts his proscriptions lists on the Internet. HH no one will care about, but Brad with the pseudo intellectualism will be one of the first to go.

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  146. “There is no way Brad F is the same poster. None.”

    With several of you complaining that Brad F could not be THE Brad F from several years ago, I went into the comments archive to check. (Even though I did not have to approve his most recent comments, which means they came through with an e-mail address that was already being used and approved.) BUT- just to double check.

    Sure enough, it IS he.

    And no, it’s not helmethofer because in 2012, Brad F was calling him “numbnutz” so that wouldn’t make any sense to call yourself names.

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  147. Oh yeah, it’s me. Thanks for verifying. Wow, I called someone that, funny. I pretty clearly blasted one of helmethofer’s arguments in my last post too. And threw in a “dude” with it. A certain sort of stupidity inspires that language I guess. Why would anyone doubt that I’m the same guy I claimed to be 4 years ago anyway. Here’s the logic: “this guy said something I don’t like, me no like this guy, he called me out for being a student loan debtor, whah whah whah, oh he must be someone else under false pretense.” Even if I were using a false name or posting as someone else (whatever the heck that means in an anonymous forum) that would somehow make you right and me wrong?

    I’m a Trump fan. Finally someone who tells it like it is. I’m pretty well insulated here in the event of civil unrest, so bring it. Plus I’m not one of those types Jenny finds in abundance who can’t change a lock or swing a hammer.

    Call me out for pseudo intellectualism? Well perhaps my intellectualism (as expressed on this forum) isn’t exactly formal. But I’m calling you out for having a pseudo (at best) level of common sense. Which is worse? A lot of a lawyers (and professors) suffer from that scatter-brain with a grad degree existence, especially the sort of lawyer still paying for his tuition.

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  148. “pseudo intellectualism”

    HD, the fact that you find Brad even remotely intellectual is not a good indicator of your own sophistication level.
    The dude brags about having a masters degree in God knows what (they are dime a dozen any ways), dates college freshman at nearly 40, he introductory (pickup line) is that he has made some money, and if I recall used to post pictures of his account’s balance on CC and he’s gotta be genuine. You cannot make this shit up…lol

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  149. When you guys are divorced at 45, see what kind of play your graduate degrees, child support, possible alimony, underwater mortgage, and still ongoing student loan payments get you on the the dating market. I’ll be set with my growing millions. Don’t believe me, well that’s on you, not going to make your life any better. And a guy who most closely represents my values is soon to be President, so there’s that. And he’s known for dating much younger women too, married or not. Why, because he can. Freedom. That’s America baby. You haters can kiss it, and kiss his too. Trumped.

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  150. “With several of you complaining that Brad F could not be THE Brad F from several years ago, I went into the comments archive to check.”

    I was saying that there was no way Brad F was helmethofer. I believe Brad F is Brad F

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  151. Best of luck to you Brad F. Don’t be bitter and have ill wishes for others. Hopefully you will have your millions and we will have our happy marriages.
    You should do whatever makes you happy. It is true that this is free country :) I was just saying you cannot be defined as any sort of an intellectual.

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  152. Wow, Brad F you are some catch………….

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  153. “HD, the fact that you find Brad even remotely intellectual is not a good indicator of your own sophistication level.”

    pseudointellectual:

    Noun

    pseudointellectual ?(plural pseudointellectuals)

    1. A person who affects proficiency in scholarly and artistic pursuits whilst lacking any in-depth knowledge or critical understanding of such topics.
    2. A person who pretends to be of greater intelligence than he or she in fact is.

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  154. Brad F,

    I’m voting for Bernie Sanders because I hope that he takes a lot of your money, and redistributes it to me by forgiving or paying off my student loans!

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  155. So you the whole article is about people who come from the suburbs, live in the GreenZone (which is just a replicated burb with urban surroundings), have to have therapy when they realize they have gotten older and have to move back to where they were from?

    You have gotta be kidding me? if you life is so upheaved that you couldn’t find a compromise in something you “really” want how are you to make it through life when a simple thing with simple solutions can cause such angst that you need to end up paying somebody cold hard cash for one hour of your whining?

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  156. Groove–

    your email broken, buddy?

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  157. Also, let converse of the so called “Green Zone”

    To all you burbanites and transplants please understand that Chicago is a big city and is larger than Lakeview, Lincoln Park, whatever direction of Loop, and WP/Bucktown (I hate bucktown).

    The city is not that expensive to live in, its that the transplant/burbanites have an “Ideal” of urban living that the greenzone business cater to and are designed to take yuppies money in large lumps. Understand your “Ideal” is not sustainable for the average family and is just some burbanite dream of standard living which would need a HHI of 250k plus. which is not the HHI of the average Chicagoan.

    Sad days when an article like this is actually a story warranted to be published.

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  158. anon (ufo),

    not that its broken per se, more as I cant remember how to get into. Plus when I got a new phone I lost the automatic login.

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  159. hit the inbox from a new fake email

    anon underscore tfo at hotmail

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  160. So, “love all”?

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  161. “Best of luck to you Brad F. Don’t be bitter and have ill wishes for others. Hopefully you will have your millions and we will have our happy marriages…you cannot be defined as any sort of an intellectual.”

    Well that first part is very true. I shouldn’t let the haters/negativity/ad hominem get to me. It is something a successful person has to confront regularly. I didn’t understand it when I was in an office job, but it is indeed true. As far as the second part, intellectualism is a subjective and relative term. Anyone who has spent time around a wide variety of people knows that there are some who are very highly educated but are total idiots and there are others with very little education who are quite intellectual and intelligent.

    I’ve brought to the table the air quality issue of how pesticides/insecticides surrounding the exhurbs is affecting young women’s health. And how the city has no exclusive on sex crimes relative to suburbia. Perhaps a similar rate of offenses but people are further away when you need help. So I’m putting new stuff on the table here, other than the obvious space vs affordability. I know this is a majority city board so I’m preaching to the choir. I doubt there has been a study on the use of antidepressants in the city vs suburbs, but I suspect you’d see a significant difference. About 12-17% of white people are on them, so it’s not a minor issue. Can affect those not on them too due to groundwater contamination and filtration passthrough.

    If blasting me makes some people feel better about themselves, then I’m glad I can be of service. HD keep dreaming that myself and the other creditors of the world will forget that we own you (and keep making payments, they’re mandatory).

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  162. Bernie’s gonna give us all a debt jubilee!

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  163. Brad F. – Has anyone killed themselves while talking to you? Cuz I have to fight the urge to slit my wrists just reading 2 of your posts a day. I cannot imagine being stuck in a conversation with you.

    I mean seriously, there can’t possible be people in this world who actively choose to hang out with you. In fact, one of the benefits of marriage is having a sign that you are in a conversation that you don’t want to be in and have your spouse come over and spring you. You are the reason couples have this sign.

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  164. Ryan Hall cited chronically low testosterone levels as the reason for his retirement. What do women like, the body of a boxer or 100m sprinter, or the marathon runner? What body type would you rather have? Endurance athletes look sickly.

    It just seems to me that most of these middle aged types are narcissist liberals, obama voters, etc. All that time spent in “training”, lost in their own heads and thoughts. Couldn’t these people be helping “the poor” with their time instead? At least a monk produces something productive via prayer to God. A liberal twit wasting 2 hours in self-absorbed thought during training does nothing for society or the soul.

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  165. “There’s nothing conservative about hate dude. Or ignorance for that matter.”
    ” I pretty clearly blasted one of helmethofer’s arguments in my last post too. “

    No you didn’t. You are ignorant. You’ve been suckered by the gay movement’s false imagery, lies, and propaganda. A sick movement that the Eskimos are also involved in pushing on healthy America. Say no to the poz.

    Try and educate yourself: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034619/

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  166. “At least a monk produces something productive via prayer to God.”

    lol I thought you were going to ale, prayer man? You complain “All that time spent in “training”, lost in their own heads and thoughts.” I think you should seriously think of picking some activity that makes your use your head too.

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  167. “At least a monk produces something productive via prayer to God.”

    lol I thought you were going to say ale, prayer man? You complain “All that time spent in “training”, lost in their own heads and thoughts.” I think you should seriously think of picking some activity that makes your use your head too.

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  168. who cares what other people are doing with their dicks

    seriously

    In terms of things I never ever think about it is probably close to dead last

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  169. Based on the HH commentary its appears that he doesn’t believe in the value of exercise…….. I am picturing him as one of those big old queens…….

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  170. Here’s something for you HH: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-daniel-cartica-world-marathon-challenge-20160129-story.html

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