Crib Chatter is On Vacation: Open Post About June Sales and Market Conditions

I will be on vacation this week.

But I know you are all DESPERATE to talk about the June sales numbers and tight inventory.

So while I can’t post the numbers here in the post, I’m sure someone (er…Gary) will post them in the comments section.

We know from Gary’s prior updates that June was another hot month.

For properties under $500,000, sales are brisk with many seeing multiple offers.

But is there too much luxury inventory now? How many $1 million condos do we need built?

Over 500 new condos are currently under construction in addition to existing inventory.

Will this hot market continue into the fall season?

I’ll return from the beach on July 29.

Be nice to each other while I’m away.

-Sabrina

 

226 Responses to “Crib Chatter is On Vacation: Open Post About June Sales and Market Conditions”

  1. JAN TERRI IS COLD. HOLD ME. LOLZ!!!!
    GO CUBBIES!!!!!!!!

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  2. Sadly around 2012 people around the world found out Chicago is cheap, and now its been driving up prices fueled by low rates around the world, expect it to continue with the weakening dollar

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  3. Currently in Tokyo and can’t believe how crazy some of the real estate is here..makes Chicago look like a bargain

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  4. Chicago is a bargain Riz. Even in the US if one wants to live in a large urban setting, it’s dirt cheap.

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  5. As I expected the Illinois Association of Realtors reported a 1.7% decline in Chicago sales. However, even now, with more sales reported, we’ve set a 10 year record. It’s just that sales were only up about 1.7% on an apples to apples basis. So growth is slow in light of tight inventories. The buyers are out there and they pounce as soon as something good comes along. Here is the full press release with the usual rosy spin: http://www.illinoisrealtor.org/node/4240

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  6. Connectedspace on July 25th, 2017 at 6:41 am

    Riz, I’ve been saying it for years to anyone who’ll listen: Chicago’s overall COL vs. income, even with all the hairy taxes, is amongst the best in the world. Throw in the cultural amenities and so forth and the city is a bargain. Hong Kong, Singapore, London (yikes!), Sydney, and as you’ve found, Tokyo — THOSE places are expensive. Residents are crushed under high costs and relatively low wages.

    And in many of those places, people don’t complain about the schools. Private schooling is just yet another cost to be borne with a shrug and a grimace.

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  7. chicago is cheap and it’s not some analomy. it’s cold, the international reputation for crime goes all the way back to Capone, and the state is a mess. the geography sucks it’s so flat, and it’s pretty isolated with the few major cities closeby (st louis? milwaukee? indy? not exactly gems as compared to NY boston d.c. all in one corridor). it’s nothing but GMO corn for hundreds of miles in any direction. yes there are good jobs and good culture and talk buildings but theres no draw to come here like california dreaming or new york’s bright lights big city.

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  8. “Currently in Tokyo”

    sure you’ll have a great time but, gotta say, seems like an odd time to be visiting.

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  9. Chicago is a phenomenal bargain compared to other major cities. Moving from the south, I used to think Chicago was expensive as hell until I started looking at other cities.

    I do think people tend over look Chicago because of our winters though. However, I don’t know that Chicago winters aren’t any worse than NYC. We just don’t have a center of universe industry that draws a lot of dreamers. NYC has Wall Street and Fashion. San Fran has Tech. LA has Hollywood. Not too mention the weather. Boston is the education capital. VA/DC/Maryland have government teet. Portland/Seattle have tech and outdoors.

    With that said, a lot of companies have their eye on Chicago and seems we are attracting more and more corporate HQs every week. IMHO, I think Chicago is well positioned in spite of the issues with IL government and lower class social issues.

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  10. Chicago has two airports so your choice of direct flights to pretty much everywhere is a massive benefit to companies that rely on travel…. I’d say the “dreamers” here are in the logistics industry, not exactly exciting but its a necessary economic engine

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  11. I mostly agree with HD.

    Chicago is cheap if you assess the city in a bubble. Great food, culture, etc. for the price. Chicago is priced fairly when you consider the location. I have to get on a plane to go anywhere interesting. Crime is overstated IMO and the weather isn’t that bad.

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  12. “However, I don’t know that Chicago winters aren’t any worse than NYC.”

    They are worse, by a non trivial amount.

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  13. yeah its like 1-5 degrees worse on average or something, big whoop

    NYC can get hurricanes and those ridiculous noreaster blizzards!!! And tsunami’s too lol

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  14. O’Hare can take me virtually anywhere I want to go with few layovers compared to most US cities. We go to Europe every year. I travel for work and always have a direct flight, while colleagues in other cities routinely have transfers.

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  15. “yeah its like 1-5 degrees worse on average or something, big whoop”

    have you lived in nyc or e coast? it’s different.

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  16. my best friend lives there, how is it different other than they usually get our weather a day or two later…

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  17. My wife is from NJ, she doesn’t think the winters in Chicago are any worse. I’ve worked a lot in NYC during winter months and I didn’t think Chicago was any worse. In fact, I’d say NYC was worse because you actually had to be out in the weather all the time whereas at least in Chicago, you can drive if you want.

    I barely wore a coat last winter because my daily commute was literally from my house garage getting in car to park not even 30 feet from the front door of my office.

    This is not to say Chicago doesn’t have sh*tty weather in the winter, but I don’t thin it is exponentially worse than NYC. The winter reputation we have is way overblown imho.

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  18. “I barely wore a coat last winter because my daily commute was literally from my house garage getting in car to park not even 30 feet from the front door of my office.”

    that’s an evaluation of your commute more than the weather. and this winter was mild.

    “my best friend lives there, how is it different other than they usually get our weather a day or two later…”

    when it’s 25F plus out, I’m not really cold. chicago often/commonly has a sustained period of sub 20F weather (though I think not this past winter), cold enough you get fully bundled etc. that’s much less common in nyc.

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  19. I wouldn’t mind the cold so much but the rivers of black sludge you have to leap over in walking down the street are annoying and you can never get warm in many public places because they don’t keep the heat high enough. And the restrooms are ALWAYS cold. I can’t figure that one out from a construction standpoint. The bathroom can be in the middle of a heated restaurant and it’s freezing.

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  20. ” the weather isn’t that bad.”

    The winter weather is not good either. I spent one winter in a warmer climate when I was younger and it changed my perspective on everything. Ask anyone from north of I-80 who attend SIU for a year or more and one of the first things they mention is the weather. It gets colder later in the year, it gets warmer earlier, and a plain jacket is all you need all winter long.

    Heck, speaking of NY: long island has a planting hardiness zone of 7a/7b; whereas as Chicago is two zone colder, at 5b, is similar to Nebraska and coastal maine, none of which are known for their great weather. That means chicago gets colder sooner, stays colder a lot longer, and the temps are more extreme.

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  21. ” long island has a planting hardiness zone of 7a/7b; whereas as Chicago is two zone colder, at 5b”

    “Chicago”–meaning green zone neighborhoods of the city–is 6a; NYC is 7b.

    Carbondale is 6b, a half-step warmer than city neighborhoods.

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  22. ““Chicago”–meaning green zone neighborhoods of the city–is 6a; NYC is 7b.”

    THat’s a big delta. The same delta warmer than nyc is portland.

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  23. “THat’s a big delta.”

    Yeah. But no point in comparing Naperville to Lahn Guyland. And using plant hardiness to show how cold Chicago is and claiming Carbondale is “warm” is muddled.

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  24. Chicago GZ is 6a only because the first freeze is a few weeks later than the outlying suburbs due to the lake. But OTOH, the city is also the last to warm up. in the spring it will regularly be 60 degrees in the suburbs but 48 at the lake front. i know because I travel between the two on the train

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  25. “Chicago GZ is 6a only because”

    You chose the weapon, not me. Live by the hardiness zone, wilt like a flower.

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  26. more like that brussels spouts that mellow the flavor after a frost or two.

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  27. “sure you’ll have a great time but, gotta say, seems like an odd time to be visiting.”

    Why?

    It’s kind of warm and has rained a bit – but otherwise been pretty busy. It’s the only week my wife was getting off and I recently came off a rough couple weeks so a much needed break.

    Not sure I like it all that much – it’s clean and the people are very polite. Great seafood. Other than that a lot of the modern culture strikes me as strange. Wife is loving the shopping.

    They are extremely different but I think I far prefer Paris and NYC as far as cities go. Lake Ashi area was beautiful here and I’m going to Kyoto tomorrow so we’ll see how that goes.

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  28. Paris is significantly better than NYC or Tokyo.

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  29. Agreed Tone,

    Paris is my favorite city probably. After that it’s a toss up between Rome or NYC.

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  30. “This is not to say Chicago doesn’t have sh*tty weather in the winter, but I don’t thin it is exponentially worse than NYC.”

    Not exponentially worse, but the coldest 10-20 (not necessarily consecutive) days of a typical winter here are the sort of cold that makes national news when it affects NYC. Also, your typical Chicagoan has a coat and hat and gloves and boots that are sufficient for that type of cold, where your typical NY’er does not (in no small part bc where do you keep a coat that you use for 4 days every third year?). So the perception comes from a combination of ‘worst normal case’ and a lack of preparation for that from NY’ers.

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  31. “sure you’ll have a great time but, gotta say, seems like an odd time to be visiting.”
    “Why?”

    was there once in august and it was way too hot/humid for me.

    “Not sure I like it all that much – it’s clean and the people are very polite. Great seafood. Other than that a lot of the modern culture strikes me as strange. Wife is loving the shopping.”

    Not sure which part you find strange but some people enjoy the strangeness. If you don’t like modern there’s a lot of other stuff.

    “Paris is significantly better than NYC or Tokyo.”

    all the French people are really annoying.

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  32. I wish they would put more smoking bans in place in France. I would like to be able to sit in an outdoor cafe, but I don’t want someone puffing his god damned smoke into my face. I don’t care if it’s their culture to smoke. Sometimes people need to change their culture.

    For that matter, I wish smoking was banned in this country except in single family homes when the windows are kept closed.

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  33. “I wish they would put more smoking bans in place in France. I would like to be able to sit in an outdoor cafe, but I don’t want someone puffing his god damned smoke into my face.”

    You could sit indoors. With your dog!

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  34. Maybe it is just me being snooty, but I am floored by the number of midwesterners I’ve met who have never been to NYC. I mean people who really have no concept of NYC… they literally think it is like going to Loop. It is like they can’t visualize how dense and populated Manhattan is nor do they really know anything outside of Time Square.

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  35. NYC is like a dirtier, denser, 10x larger version of downtown chicago

    biggest negative though – full of new yorkers and rude tourists

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  36. I’m not a huge fan of New York. I worked there for a year and continue to go at least once a month for work. We have often discussed moving there for work, but without a significant cost of living adjustment, NYC would be a hard life. The best park about the location would be the easy weekend trips. I am jealous of that!

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  37. Sonies, have you ever been to park slope, Brooklyn heights, west village, or upper west side?

    absolutely nothing to do with ‘the loop.’

    NY is a wonderful place when you don’t do ANY of the stuff tour books tell you to do to yank your money on corporate schwag. I’m originally from Chicago but I spent ten years living and working in downtown Manhattan and north Brooklyn. Not giving myself a high five, just agreed with the comment above. I am very grateful to be back in Chicago and have a comparable income from NY but lower COL, and to be closer to family. But everyone time I go from one place to the other, I am shocked how un-diverse the people are, physically, and culturally, and how unaware of the world / country / more-than-just-Chicago perspective is even possible. I think that’s from the nature of people having overall lower incomes in Chicago, which means they have less opportunity to travel.

    On the flip side, I am always pleased at the extent of intellectual stimulation available as well, given that there is NW and UofC in this city feeding talented, educated, liberal arts oriented people (regardless of your politics).

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  38. I love to visit NYC. We go a few times a year for extended weekend and week long trips. We usually stay in LES / Nolita area. The main reason is that it is such an easy trip. Cheap two hour flights on the hour. You don’t need a car. You can literally just show up and start walking around and find plenty of stuff to do, a lot of it free or cheap so you don’t need an itinerary or a huge entertainment budget.

    I spent six months working there on a consulting engagement and it was a fun city on an expense account. I could not live there though. It requires way too much COL sacrifice and unless you are in high finance or a trust fund baby, you will be living like a college student. There is something wrong when grown ass thirty something adults live in a studio apartment and have to convert it to a one bedroom or make their kids sleep in a closet. This is why a lot of NYC folks tend to seem like they are in an extended adolescence.

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  39. Let me rephrase, I didn’t say NYC was bad, rather than in what ways its different than Chicago… its just SO MASSIVE and dense compared to Chicago, seems like a cow town by comparison

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  40. I was in NYC once when I had a layover. I don’t want to go back. I can barely handle the crowds in Chicago and if I’m going to deal with crowds, I want to go someplace foreign. I would also rather use the money I could have spent going to NYC on a foreign vacation.

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  41. “theres no draw to come here like california dreaming or new york’s bright lights big city”

    Im in NYC all the time. Just got back actually from a week stay where it was 97 degrees and the city had a stale putrid garbage smell and dirty black water everywhere you walked. I sweated so much this last trip and smelled so many awefull smells and was crowded out on the sidewalk that for the first time in 40 years of going there I finally snapped. I have never been more thankful for Chicago’s openness, alleys and larger apartments than now. NYC was cool in my twenty’s and thirties but whoever said it’s basically college life forever was spot fucking on. Also of note, in Manhattan specifically Tribecca / SOHO, never seen so much empty ground floor commercial, starting to look like Chicago’s commercial strips!

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  42. one more thing…I was having dinner with one of my cousins and lamenting on how I cant just shoot up to Vermont for some mountain skiing like we did as kids. She replied why would you want to, you can be in the Rockies in faster than you could drive up to Vermont. So really when you think about it, ya we arent in an awesome nature region (Im ignoring the Great Lakes wonder thats literally in our front yard)but we can sure get to one when we want to fast and cheap from ORD

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  43. Dear God Marko, you are right. NYC does smell like shit in the summer.

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  44. I lived in NYC for 5 years before moving to Chicago. Its an amazing place in your 20s when having roommates and spending all your $$ is palatable. In you’re 30s and older it becomes much more difficult to stomach if you are married or have kids. If you want to be single its still amazing. With kids the costs are exorbitant – figure $1mm per BR in NYC on the low end and BKN is close to parity with Manhattan. BKN is awesome for families while being very expensive and still a 20-40 min commute to the city. Day tripping is better from NYC than Chicago but for long trips Chicago is equivalent and maybe even better since even the west coast is only 4 hrs away.
    I would guess under 5% of NYC residents have a car (higher in BKN) so while the winters are a bit better you are exposed to them more. During the “polar vortex” here my garage is full by 9am where as its usually 50% full in the summer. People drive in because they don’t want to deal with the weather. You just can’t do that easily in Manhattan given its an island (only so many ways on) and parking is more limited. As mentioned previously NYC smells like garbage in the summer. Culturally Chicago has closed the gap but NYC / BKN still wins on that front.
    TLDR: NYC is great for single or rich or 20 something. Chicago better for married w kids or not so rich.

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  45. What would a four bedroom three bath 3000 SF single family with 2 car garage cost in Brooklyncost in Brooklyn?

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  46. “What would a four bedroom three bath 3000 SF single family with 2 car garage cost in Brooklyncost in Brooklyn?”

    Approx $3mm in park slope and $4-5mm in cobble hill / bkn heights. But those would probably be more like 3500 sft and 1 car garage. NYC lots not as wide.

    http://www.brownstoner.com/real-estate/sale/new-york-city/brooklyn/park-slope/?bedrooms=4,5&price=0,10000000&year_built=0,2017

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  47. Thanks. My family income would have to quadruple to afford that. Chicago is great for me.

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  48. NYC is severely overrated. Brooklyn seems to offer very little, Manhattan is absurdly expensive and seems determined to lose all its character. I mean it’s worth the occasional visit but it’s just nothing special to me, and certainly doesn’t make Chicago seem like a cow town.

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  49. ‘NYC is severely overrated. Brooklyn seems to offer very little, Manhattan is absurdly expensive and seems determined to lose all its character. I mean it’s worth the occasional visit but it’s just nothing special to me, and certainly doesn’t make Chicago seem like a cow town.’

    I don’t think it’s overrated at all. I think it’s one of the most fun and cultured cities in the world. That being said, unless you’re pretty rich, it’s not an enjoyable place to live.

    If you think Brooklyn offers very little you likely haven’t spent much time there. I’d argue Brooklyn is just as fun as manhattan with a lot to do. I think the lower east side, east village, Harlem, park slope, etc have tons and tons of character. If you want the high life, there are few places that fit the bill like Central Park west, the west village , TriBeCa , Williamsburg etc….NYC has far more life, variety, and culture than Chicago.

    Chicago IS a sleepy town compared to NYC – but that’s okay, pretty much everywhere is.

    I loved NYC in my 20’s. in my 30’s , I’d much rather live in Chicago – it’s a beautiful city with plenty to do and it offers a great quality of life. It’s cleaner than nyc and far less crowded. People are less pretentious.

    For those of you saying you hate NYC compared to Chicago , do you not have friends that are living the high life out there? For standard middle class / upper middle class people like us living there is a huge hassle.

    However, if you’re ‘rich’ , really ‘rich’, it’s an excellent place to live. A close friend of mine is a higher end exec at Goldman, his wife is a corporate lawyer. They have a townhouse in manhattan, a driver takes the kids to private schools and takes them to work. They spend summer weeks exploring arguably one of the greatest cities in the world with their kids, weekends in the hamptons, and hop a flight to anywhere from JFK or lga. Plenty of culture, great food, awesome nightlife. It’s a good life if you’re making 2+ million dollars a year.

    If you hate crowds , pollution, garbage, and crime etc, it isn’t the place for you – but then again, is chicago?

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  50. A higher end exec at Goldman doesn’t have that much free time

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  51. “A higher end exec at Goldman doesn’t have that much free time”

    Yes, that’s totally relevant to my post about NYC. Thanks. For the record, a lot more free time than me.

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  52. from an internet link

    The average Goldman Sachs employee makes $367,564 on an annual basis, according to the firm’s most recent financial disclosures. That is actually down slightly from last quarter but up markedly from a year ago, when average compensation per employee was $254,850.

    I would suspect that a GS executive in NYC is making more coin than listed in that link say 1.5 mil plus. To make that amount, they often working and available from 6 am to 12 midnight plus weekends. Then what’s the point of being in NYC when you don’t have the downtime for sporting events, or the broadway shows or spending that time with the kids.

    If you are working 60 hours a week and you have 1.5m an above income in NYC or if you have it from passive income – I can see it, but at 100 hours a work week and then some weekends – I don’t get it. But that’s me.

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  53. I’m not even talking about living there, just to visit, I am continually underwhelmed. I’ve gone back multiple times to explore but each time I leave convinced it’s just OK and more hype than substance. Not to my tastes I guess, I’ll take Paris, Istanbul or Berlin in terms of large cities to spend a few vacation days in.

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  54. @chichow, don’t forget about bonuses. That’s the bulk of their income, not the listed base salary

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  55. “don’t forget about bonuses. That’s the bulk of their income, not the listed base salary”

    chichow isn’t forgetting that.

    That average *includes* bonuses. It also include the mail clerks.

    $2m is real solid for an “executive” at GS, and presumably doesn’t count RSUs. It’s change for the ‘risk taker’ folks, of course, but (imo) is weird to call a trader or such an “executive”. The traders (typically) have more free time, of course.

    If an M&A dude, even as a Partner MD, he’s still likely working the 80+. Then, tho, as a Partner MD, it’s also more like $10m+ in total comp–helicopter to the Hamptons money.

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  56. “For the record, a lot more free time than me.”

    A higher end Goldman exec has 6+ weeks of vacation (or whatev you have) that he actually takes?

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  57. “If you hate crowds , pollution, garbage, and crime etc, it isn’t the place for you”

    Very minimal crime in NYC, really. Unfair objection, if anyone made it. Obv can’t just leave your iphone on the table when you go the to bathroom or something like that, but random physical crime is really low.

    Comparing Chi to NY on crowds and garbage tho is a joke.

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  58. “A close friend of mine is a higher end exec at Goldman, his wife is a corporate lawyer. They have a townhouse in manhattan, a driver takes the kids to private schools and takes them to work. They spend summer weeks exploring arguably one of the greatest cities in the world with their kids, weekends in the hamptons, and hop a flight to anywhere from JFK or lga. Plenty of culture, great food, awesome nightlife. It’s a good life if you’re making 2+ million dollars a year.”

    Your friend sounds like a clone of my friend, but he lives in Moscow. While Moscow isn’t the safest city, I think it’s more interesting and fun than NYC. Maybe it’s the foreign allure and being American, I tend to find American things dull.

    Would you rather spend a year living in Moscow or a year living in NYC? Assume you’d have the same lifestyle with the same buying power.

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  59. Manhattan is very safe. The entire island has been pretty much gentrified. Even the outer boroughs aren’t that bad anymore. NYC doesn’t seem to have the same concentration of poverty and crime as Chicago. To be fair, Chicago is very safe too as long as you don’t go to the far south and west sides. Furthermore, unless you are “bout that gang life” Chicago violence is practically zero for the general population.

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  60. Mike, you nailed it. I’m often surprised at Chicagoans’ comments or impressions on NY and when I find out what they spend their time doing, areas they stayed in that explains it. NY isn’t NY for the touristy areas/activities. The culture, perspective and exposure to “worldliness” is what I miss most about NY.

    Chichow, from my experience, NY actually is better than Chicago for people with limited time as it’s a much denser city with far more to do than your standard b’way shows or museums (touristy stuff). Most Manhattanites that I know spend their time enjoying the restaurants (we all have to eat) and personally, I found it refreshing when walking back from GS to my tiny apt in SoHo a decade ago…the pedestrian lifestyle and culture is unrivalled if you’re into that sort of thing (and no, I earned six figs but well below the avg at the time – execs huge comp #s skew the avg, meaning that far below half meet the avg #s.) I remember one evening I was walking home from the office at 8pm and heard some great music a few blocks from my apt…and stumbled into a Sasha Digweed performance, which I was able to just walk into. So from that perspective, the demand for and number of ad hoc events creates competition while also ensuring they’re not mobbed out like they would be in Chicago. Such a thing would never happen here, much less at 8pm on a weeknight!

    Weather-wise, I found that NYC winters were much more tolerable than Chicago’s mostly due to the lake effect/wind chill which makes the temps feel 10 degrees+ colder not to mention the avg temps over the winter are 5-10 degrees higher on average in NY. Also, due the transportation (whether subway or taxi) I was out much less in the winters than I am here in Chicago. The El’s stops require a lot more walking between them than the Subway and even with Uber, there’s a lot more taxis in NY than here.

    However, COL is why I live in Chicago :)

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  61. PS: I do like Chicago…while corrupt politically and with crime pockets, the city has great airports connecting us to any city across the globe, is very clean relative to NY for instance, housing costs still relatively affordable even with the huge prop tax hikes and the transit system is the second most sophisticated in the country.

    ..and for the record, I agree with commenters on Paris vs NY…no comparison. Paris is a very special place :)

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  62. ” 6+ weeks of vacation (or whatev you have)”

    Thought is was 12+. And doc vacation is way different from GS vacation–doc can’t perform procedures from Tokyo, but GS guy can be on 12 hours of conference calls.

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  63. “Thought is was 12+”

    sure you’re right. 6 weeks of actual taken and undisturbed vacation already sounds very umc in vacation terms. 12 weeks is downright 1 percenter.

    “And doc vacation is way different from GS vacation–doc can’t perform procedures from Tokyo, but GS guy can be on 12 hours of conference calls”

    but riz says his friend has much more free time and I assume free time is actually free and undisturbed.

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  64. “Approx $3mm in park slope and $4-5mm in cobble hill / bkn heights. But those would probably be more like 3500 sft and 1 car garage. NYC lots not as wide.
    http://www.brownstoner.com/real-estate/sale/new-york-city/brooklyn/park-slope/?bedrooms=4,5&price=0,10000000&year_built=0,2017

    Wow, I am astounded…these homes look virtually the same as SFH homes in Gold Coast, Lincoln Park, but priced about 70-100% higher. What is this Park Slope area? is it a good area?

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  65. B, Park Slope is a neighborhood in Brooklyn. It is popular with young families.

    Free time is hard to come by on Wall Street. No Goldman partner, Managing Director or whatever is taking undisturbed vacations.

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  66. Most investment banks have mandatory vacation policies for any roles in or facing the front office (trading desk.) ML requires two consecutive weeks off annually, during which systems/login and building access are prohibited. However, in theory I guess people could be taking calls offline on their cell phones but that kind of skirts the intent of the policy.

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  67. Heh. My friend was supposed to be on vacation when I visited him in Moscow. His boss called him the day before freaking out because he his STD results came back positive, so my friend didn’t get to take time off while I was there. The government requires STD tests for foreigners working in Russia. Part of the job involved taking clients to prostitutes, so everyone in the office would freak out come STD testing time…

    I wonder if it’s like that in NYC too.

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  68. Wow! That is absolutely insane and fortunately I have never heard of that happening here…however, you can bet that certain people who make decent money use it to fund their shady lives/recreational activities. As a female, i try to wear earmuffs when it comes to that sort of thing.

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  69. PS: I am on mandatory now and in airport waiting for flight. This blog is a great news/educational resource! Thanks, Sabrina and to all the contributors for the lively dialogue and varied points of view.

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  70. An 80 hour week for an executive is a lot different than an 80 week for an analyst, doctor or an attorney. An executive’s or high level IB 80 week is more of a lifestyle involving travel, meetings, meeting clients, business lunches and dinners, going to the gym, staying out late. Don Draper ‘worked’ 80 hours a week too as a partner at his firm but a lot of time was out of the office.

    80 hours for an analyst, lawyer or doctor means actually working, doing the daily grind, for as many hours as you can. I’ve put in 60 hour work weeks every so often and it’s exhausting basically going through files or being on trial. Doctors working 60 hours are meeting with patients and so forth. Analysts are preparing spreadsheets.

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  71. HD, it is still a lot of hours though. The travel alone will wear you out. Yes, you aren’t buried in some spreadsheet, but you are still working.

    When I worked in consulting, it was pretty much 7:30 – 8pm. Then you’d get back to hotel and work another hour or so. Every now and then we’d work until 2 or 3 in the morning. Usually right before a big presentation was due. Usually had a few hours or half a day on weekends. I still have nightmares about being in a Kinko’s at 4:30am once getting finishing touches on a board presentation at 7am.

    Cushiest corporate job I had was in brand management. People left the office by 5pm. Hardly ever needed to do anything after hours.

    I don’t think millennials are as tolerant of professional services/banking hazing as my generation.

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  72. “ML requires two consecutive weeks off annually”

    Riz gets 12+ weeks of vacation.

    And that two weeks is largely about fraud prevention, not for the trader’s sanity.

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  73. Russ, definitely not where I work (regarding millennials) – sometimes I’m confused about who works for whom. Definitely a sense of entitlement that can come across as authoritative, even to us “xennials” as we’re dubbed (meaning not necessarily old school.)

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  74. “Don Draper ‘worked’ 80 hours a week ”

    Dan Draper is a fictional character who never worked a legitimate hour in his 82 hour long life.

    Next you’ll tell us how hard Bud Fox didn’t work.

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  75. tfo, true but the earlier point made was that they don’t have any time to do anything other than work so paying to live in NY was pointless(pardon my paraphrasing)

    …whether imposed by policy or not, it’s still time off. Two consecutive weeks is the min per the policy but overall time off allotment varies based on tenure & title obviously.

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  76. “HD, it is still a lot of hours though. The travel alone will wear you out. Yes, you aren’t buried in some spreadsheet, but you are still working.”

    This is my nightmare. At least as a doctor you’re making a positive difference in the world. At least as a litigator you’re working on an intellectual challenge and get paid enough for the h**kers ‘n blow.

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  77. I have never ever taken 2 consecutive weeks off (voluntarily) in my life

    wish I could

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  78. I lived in Manhattan for 9 months in the late 80s (just dated myself) and then worked there for at least another 3 months. Was doing 80 hour weeks at what was then called Booz, Allen, & Hamilton. Did that for 6 months.

    1) Don’t know how I did it. Totally burned me out and I had to quit afterwards because I couldn’t stand the whole thing. It was the project from hell with the manager from hell. (I think he is the CEO of some major corporation now) I don’t know how people do it.
    2) I was not a fan of NYC at that time. Had to look down as I walked to work to dodge all the dogshit on the sidewalk. No place to go to the bathroom either so you would see a businessman get off the subway and pee on a parked car on the side of the road. All the cab drivers would piss under the underpasses too. There’s a great storyline in a Seinfeld episode about this phenomenon.

    It was nice to be able to walk to just about anything and be able to buy anything at any time of the day but it was too damn expensive even then and even simple things were complicated – e.g. going grocery shopping without a car at a teeny tiny grocery store with shelves that were only 2 items deep with 2 brands. And two people could not stand in our kitchen at the same time and it was a “luxury” building. You can have it but you’ll need a ton of money.

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  79. astara–fair enough, but with the two weeks off, one could live wherever, and still spend those two weeks in NYC.

    So if the ‘NYC is bearable’ is based on vacation time alone, that’s cold comfort.

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  80. “never ever taken 2 consecutive weeks off (voluntarily)”

    Never waited two weeks to start a new job?

    Always worked over Christmas break (or tried *really* hard to find a job and failed)?

    Serious?

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  81. yep!

    worked stunning jobs like doing inventory for RGIS during Christmas breaks and such, in my later college years I’d just stay on campus and work during break rather than go home

    worked in summers too since I was 13 (caddying)!

    no wonder I’m so tired

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  82. I altered birth cert at 15 to be able to work 48 hrs/wk @ min wage as usher at Woods Theater & worked on day off as Andy Frain usher at Cubs/ Sox games for $6 cash/game (some days both!). And took a 9 am summer school typing class. Later worked summers as life guard & then ‘full time temp’ CTA bus driver. I’ve never taken two weeks off voluntarily or otherwise.

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  83. southbound, how proud your family will be when they find you dead at your desk! Oh the glory of stroking out while doing one last deal late at night at the office! The bards of the office will sing tales of your glory for years to come.

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  84. Why southbound? Why work like that? I’m not judging. I’m just curious.

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  85. Everyone is different guys.

    I have family members in their 70’s still practicing medicine and engineering part time. They are sharp and happy. The thought of working 40 hours a week and retiring at 60 bores the s*it out of me. I work hard, but I also travel a lot and take enough vaca to not feel too burned out. I’ve tested the limits for sure and have slowed down a bit – probably similar to southbound.

    That being said, I just took a week of vacation and would love another..but I can see someone who loves to work getting antsy by this point. Maybe southbound is one of those people.

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  86. “but riz says his friend has much more free time and I assume free time is actually free and undisturbed.”

    Yeah – I think everyone’s view of how an investment banker works is a bit antiquated here. My friend worked his tail off in his 20’s and early 30’s – not so much as a more senior executive. The younger guys work the 100 hour weeks and take no time off. He probably averages 60 hour weeks, still a lot of work – but his weekends and vacations are largely his. I work much much more than he does. I get more vaca though.

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  87. PS I should mention, Goldman pays well but his pay is dependent on him staying in NYC. He loves it but has tried to shift over to the LA office a few times, only to find he’d take about a 50 percent or more pay cut, mostly minus related.

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  88. Bonus related*

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  89. jenny: Thanks but I don’t understand why recounting some hs & college summer jobs matters today other than giving hd opening to try trolling me.

    Fwiw during 2017 I’ve vacayed 2-9 days in northern Wisc., Tokyo/Yuzawa, & Lake Superior/ MN, Wi & MI. I’m also regularly riding 25-65 mi. on group bike rides so imo odds are higher hd’ll ingloriously ‘stroke out’/exit before I do unless an inconsiderate N Shore driver runs me over.

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  90. Southbound you’re into biking also?

    You ever ride with the rapha crew? Good group.

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  91. jenny – an ironic story. As a result of earnings from ushering job(s) I proudly bought Converse’s Chuck Taylor shoes to the horror of my parents who couldn’t understand why anyone’d spend $10 wastefully on gym shoes when Keds & PF Flyers cost $4-$5. This spring in Tokyo I noticed women between 15-40 y.o. wearing All Stars as fashion (didn’t Converse as ‘fashion’ trend mostly die 10 yrs ago here?)
    When I stopped into the very trendy vertical KITTE mall near Tokyo’s central train station I saw a Converse display quoting equiv of $300 for canvas Chuck Taylor’s (admittedly in Tokyo’s likely equivalent of Field’s). Maybe DT’ll hire hd to sue re lowering JP’s gym shoe tariffs? But what buying those Converse taught me in hindsight is to never buy shoes that provide no support no matter how cool I believe they look.

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  92. I’m just playing around SB, you’re the one who was bragging about your unrelenting work ethic. As for the stroking out at the desk, I had a former boss who always joked that the cleaning crew would find him dead at his desk after stroking out. The irony is two fold because 1) he did little ‘real’ work despite the 70 hours a week in the office and 2) he wasn’t joking about stroking out. He’s the kind of guy who took a week after the birth of his first kid, three days after his second; and by the third, he left a few hours early on Monday and was back at work at 8:00 a.m. on Wednesday for the third.

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  93. Jenny,

    I agree with you on arch support; plantar fasciitis is a real risk from walking around with no arch support for a long time. especially if you’re active.

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  94. SB,

    Converse is still “okay” as a daily shoe, I still rock my chucks pretty often. I’ve noticed them being worn by the average folks here in Japan , but I think the “trend” is very much towards adidas nmd’s, tubulars, etc..and to a lesser extent the yeezy’s. Special collaborations for the chuck taylors with varvatos etc and other small designers yield a pretty penny and are desirable though.

    Don’t get me started though. Total sneaker head here, had 33 active pairs last count. Japan has been tough for me..they have a lot of stuff we don’t get as easily in the states.

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  95. Wondering if anyone has any idea where this house is: http://lucidrealty.com/homes-for-sale/Chicago_West_Town/single_family_homes/999-N-CONFIDENTIAL-AVE/

    They put it in West Town in zip code 60642 but that might not be correct. The photos show an address of 516. I’ve tried several tricks and can’t figure it out.

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  96. Chucks are still popular among my friends in their 30s. None of us is really into high fashion though.

    I can understand the need to work to feel fulfilled, but to me there’s a big difference between being a doctor and an investment banker. With the former, you are helping people, figuring out challenging problems, and making great money. With the latter, it’s all about the money. The former is interesting work. I don’t know as much about the latter, but my friend’s job is to help people buy and sell huge quantities of stock without disrupting the price of the stock greatly. That type of job sounds rather dull since I think it’s mostly connecting buyers and sellers and not solving interesting problems.

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  97. investment banking is gods work. medicine is mostly helping obese medicaid patients allievate their medical problems with the occasional plastic surgery. except for cancer docs and kids docs. god bless their souls.

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  98. “investment banking is gods work. medicine is mostly helping obese medicaid patients allievate their medical problems with the occasional plastic surgery. except for cancer docs and kids docs.”

    haha comeee onnn HD. Sarcasm i hope.

    It’s not that easy. I won’t put anyone’s profession down…but there’s a lot more to medicine than dealing with diabetes and fat people.

    Oncologists are great. Don’t leave out the surgeons, the anesthesiologists, the radiologist who diagnoses your cancer , and the family practitioner who likely picks up on your cancer in the first place.

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  99. HD, guessing that’s sarcasm.

    Everyone have a good weekend?

    I’m back home and feel great about it. Was walking around LP today with the wife and we felt a great sense of relief getting away from crowds and general craziness of tokyo.

    Had some sushi at Toro to compare. It’s good enough for me.

    Renewed my love for the city.

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  100. “But everyone time I go from one place to the other, I am shocked how un-diverse the people are, physically, and culturally, and how unaware of the world / country / more-than-just-Chicago perspective is even possible. I think that’s from the nature of people having overall lower incomes in Chicago, which means they have less opportunity to travel.”

    No offense, Mike, but who the hell do you hang out with?

    Chicago has one of the largest Mexican populations in America, not to mention the largest Polish population. In the public schools like 50+ languages are spoken. We have restaurants for every type of cuisine on the planet.

    How are the people “un-diverse”? With the exception of NYC, it is probably the most diverse big city in America (more diverse than LA or SF which don’t have the Slavic immigrants like we do.)

    If you go to California, you will find a huge percentage of the population there that has never left the state. Yes. It’s true. Have NEVER LEFT CALIFORNIA. And I get it. It’s a big state. If you live in San Francisco and are bored, you can go to LA, San Diego, various wine countries, Disneyland etc.

    There are also a big group of others who have left California only to go to Nevada (aka Las Vegas) or Arizona.

    So to say Chicagoans don’t travel is not accurate. The fact is, a huge percentage of ALL Americans don’t travel (yes, even in wonderful NYC.) Isn’t it still 30% that don’t have their passports? That number has stayed consistent over the years.

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  101. “Maybe it is just me being snooty, but I am floored by the number of midwesterners I’ve met who have never been to NYC.”

    I’ve met many Californians who have never been to NYC nor DC. Not even to take their kids.

    They have no desire to go.

    By the way, NYC has always been expensive to visit. Airbnb makes it a little better but many don’t want to go that route. The hotel prices are insane so you really have to want to go there for some reason to go there. It’s cheaper to go to Paris or London even with the higher air fares.

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  102. “yes there are good jobs and good culture and talk buildings but theres no draw to come here like california dreaming or new york’s bright lights big city.”

    Yet- it IS a draw for young people. Thousands of them (as is indicated by the 40+ high rise apartment buildings currently under construction.) It has become THE destination for most young people in the Midwest. I was in Tulsa Oklahoma on business not too long ago and asked some locals where their kids will work when they get out of college. They told me most go to Chicago or Dallas/Houston.

    With housing costs a huge issue on both coasts, the “flyover cities” are becoming more and more attractive.

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  103. “Everyone have a good weekend?

    I’m back home and feel great about it. Was walking around LP today with the wife and we felt a great sense of relief getting away from crowds and general craziness of tokyo.

    Had some sushi at Toro to compare. It’s good enough for me.

    Renewed my love for the city.

    Chicago is probably one if the best cities on the planet when the weather is perfect like we had Saturday

    Sadly those days aren’t very frequent, and most of those are wasted on work days

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  104. “Isn’t it still 30% that don’t have their passports?”

    Hahahaha. Like 30% *DO* have passports.

    ok–it’s actually 46% ( http://www.theexpeditioner.com/2010/02/17/how-many-americans-have-a-passport-2/ ), but still the *majority* of Americans do not have passports.

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  105. “We’re very important,” Lloyd C. Blankfein (CEO of Goldman Sachs) said in an interview with The Times of London. “We help companies to grow by helping them to raise capital. Companies that grow create wealth. This, in turn, allows people to have jobs that create more growth and more wealth. It’s a virtuous cycle.”

    The dominant Wall Street bank posted third-quarter earnings of $3 billion and plans to hand out more than $16 billion in year-end bonuses.

    “We have a social purpose,” he told the newspaper.

    Mr. Blankfein also defended the firm’s compensation, saying that the practices correlated with long-term performance.

    “Others made no money and still paid large bonuses. Some are not around anymore,” he said. “I wonder why?”

    He said that he understood, however, that people were angry with bankers’ actions: “I know I could slit my wrists and people would cheer.”

    But he is, he told The Times, just a banker “doing God’s work.”

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  106. Chicago is a draw for the midwest’s big 10 grads, sure, compared to St. Louis. There is some draw because it’s cheaper, and there are plenty of reasons it’s cheaper. as man wiser than me once told me, “there are no deals in real estate”. It doesn’t matter on a micro or macro scale either. the same house in east humbolt park vs. LP; or LA vs. Chicago. Sure, chicago has a lot going for it, but it’s less expensive than it’s peers for the reasons I stated above.

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  107. Attn. GS employees: Lloyd wants “well-rounded people,” —”the type of person people want to talk to and be friends with.” Follow his lead: “My favorite day is like when it’s raining and I can just lie on the couch.”

    http://dealbreaker.com/2017/07/lloyd-blankfein-whose-favorite-leisure-activity-is-to-lie-on-the-couch-tells-interns-to-be-more-interesting/

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  108. https://www.urbanrealestate.com/property/848-W-Wisconsin-CHICAGO-IL-60614-6WqFkpqukS3E.html

    This kind of kooky SFH popped up in my search today…

    Given that it’s a single story with a weird layout and what appears to be a rooftop add on…For the location and square footage is this a deal in current market?

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  109. Sabrina, while a lot of young people do flock to Chicago, it doesn’t draw the same amount of dreamers looking to make it big so to speak.

    There is a reason people used to say “If you can make it NYC, you can make it anywhere.”

    Cue image of innocent girl hoping on Greyhound bus to NYC hoping to make it big on Broadway.

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  110. Sabrina,

    Sorry that my opinion stirs your kettle (sorry not sorry?), and I am one of those Slavic immigrants, so I agree with your point, but I think it misses the mark with what I actually mean.

    I mean un-diverse in terms of mindset and worldview. Moreover, I believe I made comments as a counterpoint to my own view, of much happiness and good relationships with very intellectually rich folks here (not just money rich, sometimes exact opposite). Clearly this is a major city, and I very much love it.

    But let’s just say an anecdote, my Chicago corporate workplace (relatively high end, whatever that means) personal chatter on the plus side includes more family talk, but frankly, about 90% of the aside involves whatever sport happens to be in season, which is a matter I couldn’t possible care about as it has zero consequence to real life, with people high fiving each other more than you’d suspect. In NYC I experienced about 10% of social chatter involving sports, although on the plus/minus, that’s probably because people were more concerned about getting paid and laid than watching TV. Here it’s fairly homogenous midwestern sports oriented schools, light beer drinking frat brothers, and cardio bunny ladies that cater that market.

    I acknowledged there’s a strong underground cultural component in Chicago, especially with music, but the artists get little exposure and popular venues have been closing for decades, whereas the underground scene thrives in NY due to high volume, and talent basically always leaves Chicago for the coasts if they have the chops.

    Is it really so hard to accept the mindset of people in Chicago is far more closed minded than those in NY? I don’t see how that’s controversial, and I don’t say that is an absolute. There’s lots of educated, traveled people here. I’m just speaking from observation in public discourse and interaction with random strangers.

    Also, this might grind your gears, but Chicagoans idea of mozzarella cheese is what you get on a portillo’s sandwich.

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  111. Gary that house is 516 N. Armour

    https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/7/28/16059044/for-sale-chicago-west-town-modern-mansion-7-million

    what a hideous POS

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  112. “Given that it’s a single story with a weird layout and what appears to be a rooftop add on…For the location and square footage is this a deal in current market?”

    You wanna buy a duplex down, on an alley in the crappy part of Lincoln park, why?

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  113. Mike,

    Agree with you on the idle chatter in the workplace here vs in NY and have shared those observations with my husband, who is also a Slavic immigrant (came to US with his engineering degree from a foreign school, one suitcase & very little money and ended up paying for MBA/PhD with credit cards, which fortunately he was able to pay off in short order due to finding a solid job shortly after graduating.) He actually thinks Belgrade is more cultured than Chicago, which says a lot being that they were almost decimated off the map in the late 90s NATO bombings and the govt rife with corruption.

    I hate to say it but the composition of friends I just “ran into” meeting in NY on the street, in the gym, at work, etc were very eclectic/multifaceted and came from all corners of the globe, whereas in Chicago, I have few female friends due to the mundane dialogue (men, shopping, status and devoid of any content with any significance.) However, I have met a decent amount of interesting and educated men since moving here and overall perception is this city is gradually becoming more cosmopolitan and not as much of a “big ten bubble” (I’m biracial but a US citizen/went to an east coast school and moved to NY out of school not knowing anyone or having a job to Russ’ dreamers’ reference and also had a friend who did just that….moved from TN to become a B’way star!) I guess one has to have lived there to get the perspective and references but the gritty character of the NYer friends I have are what I miss most about it there…Chicago as a city as great but it’s the demographics/people that make the city, dictate the demand for certain venues, appetite for the very ad hoc or one off establishments that NY is known for.

    I’m just airing my observations and not intentionally trying to be critical…take for what you may :)

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  114. The problem isn’t Chicago, your problem is your narrow cultrocentric perspective of what “eclectic/multifaceted” is. A group of upper middle class younger people who all flock to NYC does not make ‘culture’. I’m sorry you can’t get along with girls in Chicago and they only walk about “men, shopping, status and devoid of any content with any significance”. This sounds like your problem, and not the citizens of this town.

    Do you have any friends that are assyrian? I know plenty and I have friends that married assyrians. How about Ghanaians? How many people do you know from the Mexican state of Michoacan? There’s a whole city out there filled with ethnic and cultural diversity, your eyes are just closed so you can’t see it. There’s an old saying, ‘when in rome’. Go get yourself a chicago style hot dog, a PBR and tix to a sox game. It’s surely better than 95% of the street food I’ve had traveling the world.

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  115. That’s not true as I grew up in the mistake by the lake (CLE), so I do have that mundane perspective and in fact grew up in a very sheltered home! Far cry from NYC, I’d say!

    I have all of the above plus friends from Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Cameroon, Kenya (all in NY). Maybe it’s living and working downtown but honestly everyone I have met has been “American” or Chinese/Indian (latter due to my occupation.)

    Eyes definitely not closed. Although admittedly after several years of them being open I have become a bit jaded :)

    …and for the record Portillo’s rocks but still not contest with Walter Chevapi!

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  116. and omg so glib…if this is my “problem” than I’m a very lucky girl indeed:

    I’m sorry you can’t get along with girls in Chicago and they only walk about “men, shopping, status and devoid of any content with any significance”. This sounds like your problem, and not the citizens of this town.

    pretty pathetic.

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  117. He actually thinks Belgrade is more cultured than Chicago, which says a lot being that they were almost decimated off the map in the late 90s NATO bombings and the govt rife with corruption.

    I may not be as “cultured” as your NY friends, but I know what decimated means.

    (My last 3 clients were based on NY, so I’ve spent at least one week per month there for the last 5 years)

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  118. Webster’s …”to severely damage or destroy a large part of (something)”

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  119. Sonies, thanks a ton. How did you know the address? It’s not listed anywhere.

    How bizarre. That’s a neighborhood with a median household income of like $66K. If you are going to spend north of $7 MM it’s going to be in Lincoln Park.

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  120. “If you are going to spend north of $7 MM it’s going to be in Lincoln Park”

    It’s on basically 3 lots. if that’s “really” a $7m house, then it would be a $10m+ house in LP.

    Of note: Assessor’s market value is $1,036,520. And the Redfin estimate is $1,437,365.

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  121. I’m going to do a blog post on this. In the last 10 years only 2 homes have sold outside of Lincoln Park and the Near North Side above $4 MM and both of those were in Bucktown/ Wicker Park. This area is nowhere near that nice.

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  122. And that Rolls Royce in front…what a joke! Maybe he’s just trying to hide the fire hydrant?

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  123. a wiser man than hd once told him “there are no deals in real estate”.

    Note to cc readers – imo no one should ever act on business advice from lawyers (or physicians). I find prospective ‘deals in real estate’ (comm’l not res) virtually every day. Often ‘deals in real estate’ arise b/c they have issues which must be resolved in order to make extraordinary profits. While it’s virtually impossible to find comm’l RE opportunities today like what existed in 2010 & 2011 there are still numerous “deals in RE’ available imo. Investment in comm’l and res RE is still an incredibly inefficient market. I don’t believe ordinary customers could ever invest in anything in stocks or bonds that’d yield the kind of returns available from ‘deals in real estate’. Jmho

    Also by extension of hd’s reasoning lawyer’s competency/experience would linearly mirror billing rates but ime that’s absolutely not the case.

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  124. Riz: No while I’m aware of rapha brand/store I didn’t know they even had rides. I’m happy riding w sub’n groups in places like N shore & bucolic barringtons – ie low density and easy access to roads thru farm country. (but boy do they despise bike riders – N Barr turned down virtually 100% fed funding for rebuilding local roads when voters learned it’d require dedication of 5-6′ of bike lanes.)

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  125. “Given that it’s a single story with a weird layout and what appears to be a rooftop add on…For the location and square footage is this a deal in current market?”

    This was under contract and then fell out and has come back on the market at a slightly lower price. My guess is that it didn’t appraise out. But who knows.

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  126. “Sure, chicago has a lot going for it, but it’s less expensive than it’s peers for the reasons I stated above.”

    The real reason is simple.

    More land.

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  127. “ok–it’s actually 46%”

    Thanks anon(tfo). Like I said- this proves my point. This is nationwide numbers. Basically ALL of America isn’t cosmopolitan or traveling around the world. As I said- plenty of people I knew in California never even left the state, let alone the country.

    Thankfully Chicago has one of the best international airports in the country so it’s easy for those of us who live here to see the world (if we so desire.) It’s not so easy in other parts of the country.

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  128. “Chicago is a draw for the midwest’s big 10 grads, sure, compared to St. Louis.”

    HD- what’s wrong with the city being the draw for all those great universities?

    If one city is a draw for over 12 huge schools- it’s a “golden” city, right? It’s basically writing its own ticket having all those young people, with that energy and ideas, coming into the city. That’s probably why we have some of the largest private equity unicorns outside of Silicon Valley (founded by, gasp, former Big Ten grads.)

    Because I don’t see anyone complaining that all those UMass and U of New Hampshire grads are all going to Boston (which they are.) Nor do I see any dissing of all the Arizona State or UCLA grads that are now in San Diego.

    Most people don’t move across the country. Even the Ivy League doesn’t. It is mostly concentrated on the East Coast (Boston, NYC, DC.) And this makes sense. Most were raised there. They went to school there. They stay there.

    Same with the Big Ten.

    The Big Ten network is key for Chicago. It’s what keeps the talent coming year after year. If we didn’t have that we would certainly be St. Louis or Detroit.

    Why diss it? Is it any different than all those Fordham grads in NYC? Or all the LSU grads in New Orleans?

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  129. I’m not necessarily dissing Chicago, I live here, its just that when I hear people say it’s a ‘deal’ compared to other bit cities, I will remind them there’s a reason just as Huntley is cheaper than Lincoln Park, Chicago is cheaper than Seattle…

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  130. “Sonies, thanks a ton. How did you know the address? It’s not listed anywhere.”

    I just saw the number in a comment on curbed and put two and two together, no google magic or anything, just memory

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  131. Sabrina,

    You bring up great counterpoints. I think I should check myself. I try to come off and think of myself as both professional successful and intelligent/intellectual, but also worldly and world-worn / savvy. I am also colored by my experiences, both setbacks and successes, and romanticized ideas about past experiences (spending my 20s in NY, striving to be and succeed there). We are all colored by these images of self, others, and memory. It’s foolish and a disservice to myself more than anyone to discount swaths of a population. And if confronted in person, I’d presumably be embarrassed with such opinions.

    I moved back to Chicago and I’m very grateful and glad to be granted a living by the same folks who embody elements of what I criticize, which is unfair and ungrateful. Nonetheless, I will hold on to my memories and experiences of NY as possessing both pluses and minuses, where the pluses override for me personally simply because it was a wonderful part of my live spent there. For every comment about bud lite sports bros and the women that cater them, I could talk about west village materialists and uptown Manhattan snobs, and a Wall Street sector that in much, but not all, part would in fact sell their mother for a buck.

    Anyways I’m done, just trying to tone down the vitriol and check myself. I still like portillo’s, but I miss the wonderful lunch options that in Chicago are taken over by lame processed foods chains.

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  132. “I will remind them there’s a reason … Chicago is cheaper than Seattle”

    What comparison are you using to determine that HD? I don’t see any huge delta between GZ Chicago and Seattle.

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  133. Anon, it isn’t huge, but I think Seattle a bit pricier than Chicago. Typical condo in hot Seattle neighborhoods like Queen Anne, Capitol Hill seems more expensive in comparable Chicago greenzone areas.

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  134. In researching the housing markets in other parts of the country I found it hard to do an apples to apples comparison. Most of Chicago has an urban feel to it – you can walk to bars, restaurants, and grocery stores from a lot of the housing options here. You might find that in order to get that in another city you have to pay a lot more money than in Chicago but you can sacrifice that and get a lot more for your money than Chicago. We found that in Austin. Yeah, I can move 30 minutes outside of city center and get a lot of house for my money but then my wife won’t be happy with the “feel” of the neighborhood.

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  135. Gary, I think that is an accurate assessment. I’ve had the same experience when considering other markets. My theory is that all these cities are catering to the same professional group and their salaries are very similar regardless of geography so it pushes housing prices up to a certain sweet spot which seems to be about $1 million for a single family home in urban areas.

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  136. Would point out to everyone that wherever you spent your 20s is going to seem more awesome and special and magical than anywhere you live later.

    But that’s primarily because your 20s are full of energy and hope and possibility.

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  137. Oh, god. The coworkers who talk about sports kill my soul. Why does it matter which team wins? Why do they care so much? I’ve gotten coworkers to stop talking about sports near me by asking why they care which team wins. The answers are all along the lines of, “I want to feel like I’m part of the city where I live or part of the school I attended.” Why do you need to create a false sense of belonging?

    I also don’t want to talk about TV shows. It’s not as though the TV show is your life. Tell me something interesting about your life. I don’t care what happened in whatever show you enjoy.

    Then, there are the coworkers who talk about food and what they ate over the weekend. Guess what? No one cares what you ate over the weekend. Unless it’s something unusual and funny, I don’t care. A friend, once told me that he sucked a bird brain out of a skull over the weekend. Now, that’s amusing. It’s rare that someone talks about eating something amusing. It’s more along the lines of, “Oh, I tried a bottle of thumb print New Glaurus this weekend. I’m not going to share any with you again because you spilled it last time.”

    Then, there are the coworkers who combine all three. “I went to a baseball game and ate a hot dog and drank the Old Style beer to be ironic. It was so plebeian. I missed GoT since I was at the game, so don’t give it away yet. Did you see X player make Y play?”

    I wish I could just work at home every single day.

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  138. “The answers are all along the lines of, “I want to feel like I’m part of the city where I live or part of the school I attended.” Why do you need to create a false sense of belonging?”

    Kurt Vonegut called this granfalloonery.

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  139. Haha jenny, you are I are two peas in a pod when it comes to coworkers conversations

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  140. What would you rather talk about at work? Work? You know how many times I’ve been at office parties where the elders sit around as part of a group discussion and tell war stories? Or listen to the secretaries bitch about their ex-husbands, or worse, gossip about each other? Or would you rather hear about all of your co-workers profligate spending habits: honeymoons to Fiji, new expensive SUV’s, spendthrift expensive home renovations? That’s always my favorite, everyone seems to have more money than me for some reason. Or how about listening to them talk about how much private school costs and how the school schedule interferes with their winter break to Breckenridge? Or better, how about their family problems and messed up kids? At least that is more interesting than the other side of that coin – how great their kids are: so and so got A’s and goes to U of C, billy bob just got a lacrosse scholarship, etc. As Sartre once wrote, hell is other people and listening to their mundanity is the worst. OTOH, would you rather discuss the finer philosophical points of Nietzsche’s Will to Power? Or how about discussions about Roe v. Wade or the collapse of democracy under Trump? would that be office friendly I’d rather talk about the Bears & beer. It’s far more interesting and I happen to enjoy both.

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  141. I would rather just not talk to them at all unless it’s about work.

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  142. when i ask a co-worker how their weekend was, I’m looking for high level like: saw a new movie, finished a great book, tried a new restaurant.

    I once had a co-worker who was so adult conversation starved, she’d give me a play-by-play of her weekend from Fri-sun in excruciating detail.

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  143. “Typical condo in hot Seattle neighborhoods like Queen Anne, Capitol Hill ”

    Redfin shows a total of 25 active listings for condos of any size between the two hoods. And it appears that the total population is about 60,000.

    By comparison, there are 291 active listings for condos of any size in Lincoln Park. And LP’s population is about 65,000. And we’ve been talking about how shitty the condo inventory is here.

    So that’s (mostly) constrained supply driving prices, rather than inherent relative desirability.

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  144. “wherever you spent your 20s is going to seem more awesome and special and magical than anywhere you live later”

    So, “high school glory days” for college grad professionals. Blah.

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  145. “So that’s (mostly) constrained supply driving prices, rather than inherent relative desirability.”

    Ummm, isn’t the thing that really drives up prices constrained supply? Which is also itself under a reasonable defn driven by inherent relative desirability?

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  146. I’m also a little scared by how much I love jenny right now.

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  147. “when i ask a co-worker how their weekend was, I’m looking for high level like: saw a new movie, finished a great book, tried a new restaurant.
    I once had a co-worker who was so adult conversation starved, she’d give me a play-by-play of her weekend from Fri-sun in excruciating detail.”

    feels like you could get at least a couple mysteries of life entries out of that.

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  148. “Which is also itself under a reasonable defn driven by inherent relative desirability?”

    Not in the case of condos in Seattle or SF (or some other similar cities)–it’s mostly driven by restrictive development laws.

    Which isn’t to say that the cities aren’t more desirable, but comparing a market with 10% of the available for sale housing on the basis of selling prices … not terribly persuasive. It just says that the marginal buyer is willing to pay more.

    Also, one could note that “active” listings are misleading; well, for pending, LP has 165, and QA+CH has 52, and for 6-month closings, LP has 843 and QA+CH has 341–so, 6 mo + pending + active for condos= LP is 1300 and QA+CH is 418. For hoods with similar populations.

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  149. Speaking of relative desirability, anyone frequent Maggie Daley Park? Went for the first time over the weekend – now any other playground is going to be a disappointment. All that debt and looming tax hikes have at least created some world class public amenities.

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  150. “Not in the case of condos in Seattle or SF (or some other similar cities)–it’s mostly driven by restrictive development laws.”

    I’m taking relative desirability to be something like demand versus supply, which on the supply side is by any reasonable defn the supply that is actually available, which is a function of, among other things, geography, development/zoning, etc.

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  151. “Speaking of relative desirability, anyone frequent Maggie Daley Park? Went for the first time over the weekend – now any other playground is going to be a disappointment.”

    Not too crowded? And hard to keep track of your kid (which isn’t a huge concern for me).

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  152. Reading over these posts reveals many unhappy people consumed with comparing and contrasting their successes or lack of successes.

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  153. “I’m taking relative desirability to be something like demand versus supply”

    Sure, it is, and I am at least sympathetic to the proposition that Seattle and SF (at least as to the city itself) are relatively more desirable than Chicago.

    But the selling price of condos in the most desirable hoods is not a good proxy for the relative desirability of the city either in an absolute or a proportional sense, at least w/o controlling for other variables (eg land use controls; unit mix; typical association amenities/dues; taxes, etc).

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  154. “feels like you could get at least a couple mysteries of life entries out of that.”

    I don’t want to re-live it and risk PTSD

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  155. “Speaking of relative desirability, anyone frequent Maggie Daley Park? Went for the first time over the weekend – now any other playground is going to be a disappointment.”

    Been there once with the kids, not a lot of shade and as DZ points out, easy to lose track of them in the crowd.

    also run through there sometimes during lunch

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  156. Obviously it’s demand driven but desirability is only part of that driver. There is also need. When you have crazy, high salary job growth in a city it’s going to drive demand up beyond just the underlying desirability – like in those fracking towns in the middle of nowhere. San Francisco is a really cool place but twice as cool as Chicago? I don’t think so – especially when you factor in the state income taxes.

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  157. Part of the “supply” equation is “what are the options?”.

    In some large cities, there are simply fewer options. In Chicago, tear-down and new construction is an option. Not really an option for some other cities. I doubt it’s a option for Queen Anne, Capitol Hill.

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  158. Maggie Daley Park is phenomenal. It really is a jewel of the city. My 3 year old loves it. We usually go in the morning around 9am on weekends and it isn’t too crowded or hot. After two hours of running around on the slides, my son exhausted. It would be nice if they had more shade. We usually just bring some lunch/sandwiches as they have picnic tables too.

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  159. Maggie Daley Park makes me want to have kids just so I have an excuse to climb stuff. It reminds me a little of the City Museum in St. Louis. If you haven’t been there, I highly recommend it.

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  160. Jenny, the first time I took my son I was sore for two days afterwards. Some of those slides are quite a workout for a tall adult to climb, but they are fun to go down. Helps your flexibility as well as some parts require anyone over 4 foot 5 to contort to get through.

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  161. Jenny you sound like a real fun coworker. Consider actively working to expand your comfort zone or you may wake up one day with nobody to talk to but your dog.

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  162. I’m not at work to have fun. I’m at work to get work done. The more time I spend chit chatting with coworkers, the less time I have to spend with my friends outside of work.

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  163. work is for making money not friends

    fuckin millennial snowflakes!

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  164. This discussion is making me glad that I work from home the majority of the time.

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  165. Some of my best friends are friends from medical school, residency, and work.

    Idk about some of your work environments, but I tend to get along well with people with similar interests and schedules..Of course there are people that bore the crap out of me, but typically I’m around like minded people.

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  166. “Some of my best friends are friends from school, indentured servitude that’s still basically school, and work.”

    Fixed that.

    And some of your ‘best friends’ are your (hopefully) future business partners? Or people you encounter at work who are in other practice groups?

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  167. lol @ anon (tfo) –

    I appreciate someone appreciating the hell residency was for 6 years of my life.

    Yeah, surprisingly it’s true – I’ve invested in a few things with friends from grad school and residency. My best friend is a coresident from my intern / 1st year of residency. Something about going through hell together bonds people.

    Maybe that’s unique to medicine? I brought this up to my wife just now and she hates her coworkers. lol.

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  168. “I’ve invested in a few things with friends from grad school and residency.”

    No, I meant the partners in your medical practice. Those are your “co-workers”.

    And if some of them were friends during residency, that means you have a friend who is a co-worker, not a co-worker-friend.

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  169. “No, I meant the partners in your medical practice. Those are your “co-workers”.
    And if some of them were friends during residency, that means you have a friend who is a co-worker, not a co-worker-friend.”

    Oh, no definitely not..most of my friends from medical school are in far less stressful specialties.

    My co-workers are also awesome, but none of them trained with me. not to sound like a D*bag, but I get along with my co-workers because we were all the ‘alpha’ gung ho types during med school and residency, which is why we are where we are. The work hard play hard mentality.

    I’m sure some here can relate?

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  170. “not to sound like a D*bag, but I get along with my co-workers because we were all the ‘alpha’ gung ho types during med school and residency, which is why we are where we are. The work hard play hard mentality.

    I’m sure some here can relate?”

    Sure…I went to school and worked/work at competitive places. Not in medicine but other fields referenced on this site that require long hours, travel, etc. It’s not how I define myself and certainly not how I select my friends. I get along with my co-workers because they work hard, are good people, and realize there is more to life than career ambition. That’s not to say they don’t have it, but it’s not the be all end all.

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  171. Riz, how did you manage to get a masters degree and graduate from medical school at 24 yo! Whoa.

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  172. “I’m sure some here can relate?”

    I find a majority of those people to be shallow, greedy, assholes, and don’t like to spend my off time with those sorts of folks. Getting wasted every day of the weekend is fun till ~35 then its just kind of sad after that

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  173. “Maybe that’s unique to medicine? I brought this up to my wife just now and she hates her coworkers. lol.”

    I think it’s unique to medicine. I work for a large company, so the typical person is a variant on the corporate drone (note, I am a corporate drone too). My little group has gone through stressful times together and bonded a bit, but people come and go. I don’t invite my work friends to socialize outside of work.

    There are a few people who I actively disdain, but for the most part my coworkers are likable. I just don’t feel a connection to them and don’t feel the need to invite them into my life outside of work. I also don’t want to chit chat with them about mundane topics when I could be getting work done. I don’t know how they even have the time to chat. I keep thinking about the pile of work building up as we converse and start getting annoyed. I hate the start to meetings too. I don’t want to spend the first 5 minutes talking about whatever game was on the night before. I want to get down to business, so that the meeting might end early and I can get back to work. I’m a low level manager now, so my time is split between meetings and actual work.

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  174. ” I just don’t feel a connection to them and don’t feel the need to invite them into my life outside of work.”

    when I first started in Corporate America I had older coworkers who felt this way and I didn’t understand. I get it know but still remember that some people move to a city and only know their coworkers. We didn’t have MEETUP.com back then.

    I don’t like absolutes on binary choices so these days I’m willing to compromise. I don’t want to hang out with coworkers for the majority of my free time but I’ll come to your annual holiday potluck every other year to grow the Work Friend thing.

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  175. “I also don’t want to chit chat with them about mundane topics when I could be getting work done. I don’t know how they even have the time to chat. I keep thinking about the pile of work building up as we converse and start getting annoyed. ”

    I’m So Busy is often the war-cry of the inept or the incompetent. If you legitimately are Perpetually Too Busy it is because you are over tasked, inefficient or both.

    If you have more work than is possible to do in a given day and you are constantly struggling just to get thing done than that is a resource/manpower issue between you and your manager. If your manager refuses or is unable to hire more headcount YOU and only YOU have to determine if this is the place for you.

    Just don’t ask me for help because I’m busy!

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  176. “I’m So Busy is often the war-cry of the inept or the incompetent. If you legitimately are Perpetually Too Busy it is because you are over tasked, inefficient or both.”

    At my office, there are always fires to be put out because a random VP suddenly decides (s)he wants X thing done and the directors refuse to ever push back. It’s even worse when the COO has whim. Then, everyone scrambles to fulfill that whim and the VPs get extremely angry that we can’t do X within a few hours. We once asked our VP if we could have a plan for our department because all we do is put out fires and she told us that she couldn’t give us a plan and that we were asking too much of her. Then, she laid off the person who did the asking. When we put plans together ourselves, she gets flustered and vetoes them out of hand. We have re-orgs every six months with layoffs so more and more work gets piled on fewer people. There is always a huge pile of work and panicked people. It’s turned down right toxic, so I am looking for a new job. So, yeah, I don’t want to hear about your weekend or chat about a TV show. I want to put out the fire and get the f**** out of there for the day.

    It wasn’t always this bad and so the chit chat was less annoying, but I still never enjoyed it.

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  177. Jenny, what you are describing is every major corporation I’ve ever worked for. Pretty sad but that’s why I got out of corporate America and refused to go back. Part of the problem is that they don’t put good strategic thinkers in positions of power. The criteria for promotion is more about your personality than your brains.

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  178. “I’m So Busy is often the war-cry of the inept or the incompetent. If you legitimately are Perpetually Too Busy it is because you are over tasked, inefficient or both.”

    on the one hand I’m sympathetic to the view that some jobs are just consistently demanding (whether one wants such a job is a separate matter, apparently ick does not). on the other hand jenny clearly has time to spend on here (as do we all), so her job can’t really be *that* demanding.

    who do we think makes more, ick or jenny? I’d say Jenny by 10 percent.

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  179. That’s a good point. I’ve been taking time off here and there though so I can look for jobs. I have 30 vacation days at this place. It’s the one thing I will miss. For instance, I am off today since I have two phone interviews. Since I no longer have a boss that I can respect, I refuse to work on my days off or weekends or after 5pm or before 8am. I’m sure I’ll have a pile when I get back on Monday, but I’m mostly checked out at this point. The job market is surprisingly good.

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  180. “Riz, how did you manage to get a masters degree and graduate from medical school at 24 yo! Whoa.”

    Masters was linked to med school, but I was 25, not 24.

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  181. “we were all the ‘alpha’ gung ho types during med school and residency, which is why we are where we are. The work hard play hard mentality.”

    I’ve noticed that the phrase “word hard play hard” tends to mean “work hard in a high income job and take relatively expensive, physically active trips during the very limited amount of time off from working hard”. Not that there’s anything wrong with that approach to life, it’s just that those using the phrase tend to imply that equal amounts of working and playing are taking place.

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  182. “I’ve noticed that the phrase “word hard play hard” tends to mean “work hard in a high income job and take relatively expensive, physically active trips during the very limited amount of time off from working hard”. Not that there’s anything wrong with that approach to life, it’s just that those using the phrase tend to imply that equal amounts of working and playing are taking place.”

    Lol i actually just meant that My friends and i probably drink more than we should on weekends. But yeah, the vacation thing too I guess.

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  183. Jenny your job sounds awful. Life is far too short to deal with that kind of crap.

    Not everyone’s job can be something they love, but it should at least be tolerable.

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  184. Ha I bet at any given point in time no more than ten to fifteen percent of people find their job rewarding or even love what they do, and no more than thirty to forty percent find their job somewhat tolerable. Everyone else is hating their working life. Of course this ebbs and flows for each individual as responsibilities, workload, bosses and coworkers all change. Not to mention people themselves.

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  185. “Ha I bet at any given point in time no more than ten to fifteen percent of people find their job rewarding or even love what they do, and no more than thirty to forty percent find their job somewhat tolerable. ”

    I’d say this may be the case for the older crowd, but from what i’ve seen the ‘millennial’ crew is mostly unwilling to work a miserable job just for the money – but we’ll see how long that lasts and as they get older. Being a ‘food blogger’ or instagram based ‘model’ etc can only provide income for so long.

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  186. I used to be OK with my job. I liked my boss and found my work interesting. It’s amazing how quickly a few bad hires at the VP level and above can quickly destroy an entire department. Everyone in my department is now looking because of one new VP. There were valid discrimination claims against him by several employees, but HR looks the other way because the new VP is friends with the COO, so they hand out packages to employees who have been discriminated against and send them on their way. I can’t wait to find a new job and write a scathing review on Glassdoor.

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  187. Another common problem is that it doesn’t matter if you like your boss or not. I don’t think any of my bosses ever lasted more than 3 years. So you may like your boss today but in 3 years your new boss will be a jerk.

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  188. “I’d say this may be the case for the older crowd, but from what i’ve seen the ‘millennial’ crew is mostly unwilling to work a miserable job just for the money – but we’ll see how long that lasts and as they get older.”

    How old do they have to be?

    The oldest Millennials are now 35. Nearly middle age.

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  189. “The job market is surprisingly good.”

    Good to hear! That means you won’t have to be in this bad situation for long.

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  190. the point of life is to work 35 hours a week, have no boss and make in the low to mid-100’s. and take a lot of time off work to spend with the family.

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  191. I know 4 people who have been looking for jobs for a long time and companies want cheap cheap cheap, they don’t want the mid career person with a proven track record, they want the next young idiot wage slave

    Very interesting times we are in right now

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  192. “I’ve noticed that the phrase “word hard play hard” tends to mean “work hard in a high income job and take relatively expensive, physically active trips during the very limited amount of time off from working hard”.”

    uh yeah unless you’re living life in a Michelob Ultra commercial, that’s not what I think…

    I mean alcohol, drugs, hedonism

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  193. “unless you’re living life in a Michelob Ultra commercial”

    Aren’t you? Aren’t we all??

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  194. I associate “work hard, play hard” with men who carry on relationships with lower level employees at work and with trixies at night.

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  195. “I associate “work hard, play hard” with”

    Two words: bottle service.

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  196. “I know 4 people who have been looking for jobs for a long time and companies want cheap cheap cheap, they don’t want the mid career person with a proven track record, they want the next young idiot wage slave”

    Same with my buddy. He went through the entire interview process (several interviews, fly to corporate in NY, etc) for a job that should have been $$$ including the title and instead they offered the customary 10% pay bump from his previous job. They were offering $50-$60k less than the market rate for that position too, and it required moving to another far less desirable state too. He didn’t even bother counter offering, the HR department wasted thousands of dollars and dozens of hours of everyone’s time thinking they were going to get a seasoned candidate for a cheap rate.

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  197. “Work hard, play hard”

    Unless you’re working hard to earn so much money that you can easily afford a Sundancer yacht to cruise lake michigan all weekend, the working hard part 55+ hours a week, is really pointless, because those few extra dollars aren’t worth your valuable time and youth. at least they aren’t worth mine. I could work plenty more hours per week and earn significantly more money, but it’s not enough to buy easily afford that yacht, and I’d rather spend my time hanging out on my patio and watching my kids play in the backyard. not everybody agrees with me on this, but hey, that’s OK too. The income distribution graph in the US is shaped like a hockey stick and unless you’re realy ni the top .1% of the country, you’re just a working stiff. It’s that yacht and the private jet that distinguish real wealth from the chap working stiff 60+hours a week for a few money pennies.

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  198. I still recall being a summer associate and having my first few encounters with folks who used the “work hard, play hard” phrase. It typically came up when a conversation turned to skiing. “Yeah, we work hard, but play hard too – I go to Deer Valley for a few days every season.” After a few days of groomers, who wouldn’t need to sit down and bill 2,300 hours to recover until next season?

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  199. HD, I wish corporate HR/recruiters would cut the bullsh*t and just state upfront what they are going to pay for a position so everyone isn’t wasting their time.

    I agree with you about work. It simply isn’t worth it imho. I much rather have free time and time with my family. No one is on their death bed wishing they worked harder, but people always regret missing things like graduations, birthdays, and vacations.

    There is nothing wrong with working hard, but there is a balance.

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  200. I’ve been getting a lot of interviews, but haven’t had an offer yet. My salary is still considered cheap for a lot of companies. I’ve had friends who have been out of work for awhile now and it’s really sad. Companies are hiring though. I’m getting calls just from submitting my resume and doing very little networking. Getting that offer seems to be the tricky part. I wonder how many people companies typically interview these days.

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  201. Never understood the “work hard, play hard” mantra. When I put in an 80 hour week the only thing I ever felt like doing was laying on the sofa staring at the ceiling.

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  202. I worked for a partner who used to say he liked to see who could “play hurt.” He’d screw with the summer interns. He’d purposely keep people out at late dinners / strip clubs and then find a way to make them need to get in early the next day.

    I long decided if I am going to consistently burn the midnight oil, it is going to be for my own company. I also tend to be mercenary because I’ve seen too many instances where people make all kinds of sacrifices for the job only to be laid off as soon as business slows down. Companies no longer seem to think long term about their employees, so employees should have the same mindset.

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  203. “Companies no longer seem to think long term about their employees, so employees should have the same mindset.”

    Exactly this. My new boss has said that he doesn’t think anyone should stay at a company more than 2 years. The moment he said that was the moment I decided to start looking. Since then, it’s only gotten worse.

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  204. “Exactly this. My new boss has said that he doesn’t think anyone should stay at a company more than 2 years. The moment he said that was the moment I decided to start looking. Since then, it’s only gotten worse.”

    The people at the top, who enjoy the lion’s share of all the spoils of a corporation’s profits, don’t give a damn about you or your family. They actually don’t even care about America. All they care about is the amount that your labor ‘costs’ and they are all willing to pay as cheaply as possible for an semi-acceptable substitute. They figure if you find other employment, they will just replace you with someone else. And if they have trouble replacing you in America, they’ll just send your job overseas or replace you with an H1-B, or they are actively looking to replace you with a robot, so they can keep an even larger share of spoils for themselves.

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  205. Well, why should they “care” about America?It’s not part of the job description in the vast majority of instances.

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  206. “They figure if you find other employment, they will just replace you with someone else. And if they have trouble replacing you in America, they’ll just send your job overseas or replace you with an H1-B, or they are actively looking to replace you with a robot, so they can keep an even larger share of spoils for themselves.”

    Although there are a lot of really dumb executives at major corporations who are very narrow and selfish thinkers this statement is a gross exaggeration. An executive would have to be an idiot to want to incur turnover except for those with the lowest skill sets. Anyone with a good set of skills or institutional knowledge is not easy to replace and even if you could replace them you don’t know what you are getting. And if they cut costs by $1 they don’t earn an extra $1. All they care about is hitting their budget numbers and getting their bonus, which is a trivial percentage of the company’s income.

    Perhaps you were being facetious but I feel compelled to discredit this popular evil executive narrative because of the very dangerous backlash to it.

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  207. “They figure if you find other employment, they will just replace you with someone else. And if they have trouble replacing you in America, they’ll just send your job overseas or replace you with an H1-B, or they are actively looking to replace you with a robot, so they can keep an even larger share of spoils for themselves.”

    My boss has basically said this to us. One day in a team meeting he literally said, “I don’t care about any of you. Everyone is replaceable.”

    He is one of the most selfish people I have ever encountered. He is motivated to keep more of the spoils to himself as when he laid off people by salary without regard to the work they do because he thinks people are easily replaceable. He “knows people” and can find anyone to do any job at any time. “I can bring someone in tomorrow who will fix that for me.” He never brings a new person in though. He talks and talks without action and then blames others when things go wrong. He has the SVP completely under his disgusting spell.

    “Perhaps you were being facetious but I feel compelled to discredit this popular evil executive narrative because of the very dangerous backlash to it.”

    It is true at least in some cases as in the VP I just described. It’s definitely not everyone. This is the first boss I have encountered with this attitude. However, the attitude is infectious and his philosophy is quickly spreading through the organization.

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  208. Why should anyone care about America? (And, by extension, their fellow Americans). Because if you don’t you are sowing the seeds of eventual revolution, apart from it simply being the right thing to do.

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  209. “An executive would have to be an idiot to want to incur turnover except for those with the lowest skill sets.”

    Even more so in a tight job market. Some jobs are taking months to fill. It’s inefficient and costs money to have job openings. It also means that you will pay more in headhunter fees etc. as the job market tightens.

    Right now, employees have options. And they will exercise them.

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  210. “They actually don’t even care about America. All they care about is the amount that your labor ‘costs’ and they are all willing to pay as cheaply as possible for an semi-acceptable substitute.”

    The vast majority of Americans work for small businesses, not the Google or Facebooks of the world.

    Small and mid-size businesses are run differently than the common perception of “big business.” You might actually get a boss who cares.

    But how would HD know? He hasn’t ever worked for a corporation, has he? A law firm is not a regular corporation.

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  211. “I know 4 people who have been looking for jobs for a long time and companies want cheap cheap cheap, they don’t want the mid career person with a proven track record, they want the next young idiot wage slave”

    What area are they in?

    Is it marketing?

    Marketing is always the first to go when the economy slows down. They’re never vital to an organization. If they’re in marketing, it’s a sign that things could be changing in the next 6 to 12 months. It could indicate that companies are reluctant to hire in that area because they know they’re going to be firing in that area soon.

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  212. I’ve worked for plenty of large corporations in my life, just not since I became a licensed attorney. But I have friends, family members and many clients who do and I hear their stories.

    “Perhaps you were being facetious but I feel compelled to discredit this popular evil executive narrative because of the very dangerous backlash to it.”

    No it is true. I have a good friend who was one of a dozen or so people still remaining when a major insurance company with a vacant office building along I-294 fired nearly everyone and forced those still employed to train all the replacements – via Skype as the ‘new’ staff was located in India. This person told me that the fired employees all walked past the ‘management’s’ cars on the last day took their turns keying the bosses’ cars. I don’t know if the management was actually responsible (or if it was a corporation decision made elsewhere) but people were angry. This is just one anecdotal, ‘in the trenches’ story of this situation.

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  213. Well, I assume those were pretty routine jobs. Those are definitely at risk. But the part of the narrative that I find concerning is the notion that management somehow keeps all these savings for themselves. Sometimes the owners of the company benefit but sometimes it’s necessary just to remain competitive. I don’t know of any company that has seen their profits permanently improved by outsourcing (personally I think it often doesn’t even make sense). Usually it results in lower prices or better products.

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  214. This meme of some Scrooge McDuck running corporations laying off employees while cackling and bathing in $100 bills is bunk.

    In most cases, corporations are just responding to competitive pressures. Yes, we can make an argument that too many companies are only concerned about shareholder value or tomorrow’s stock price at the expense of the long term health of their companies.

    Consumers also bear some of the responsibility. They create this race to the bottom mentality where price is the only thing that matters, so companies have to respond in kind. You can’t nickle and dime as a consumer but then get mad when companies seek to cut costs using the levers at their disposal. Labor is usually the biggest and easiest expense to contain.

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  215. ” This person told me that the fired employees all walked past the ‘management’s’ cars on the last day took their turns keying the bosses’ cars.”

    like the unwashed masses are even allowed in the manager’s parking garage1

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  216. “What area are they in? ”

    The one who’s been looking the longest is in digital marketing, then theres a few admins, aviation people, financial services

    I work for a pretty large corporation and just this past year they gave us our second paycut in 5 years… When I started here I remember the CEO talking about our rates and how we’d never decrease that, it all changed when the CEO got divorced 5 years ago and starts acting like a greedy dickhead, hiring literally the cheapest people possible (who “surprisingly” turn out to be complete retards) all the while taking corporate jet trips all over the world, company morale is going down the shitter at a rapid pace… but hey the stock price Is doing well, so all is good right?

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  217. “This person told me that the fired employees all walked past the ‘management’s’ cars on the last day took their turns keying the bosses’ cars.”

    Don’t need to key their cars. Just buy up their street!

    http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Rich-SF-residents-get-a-shock-Someone-bought-11738236.php

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  218. “I work for a pretty large corporation and just this past year they gave us our second paycut in 5 years…”

    Your comp depends, to any meaningful degree, on your “salary”?

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  219. It is not bunk. Decisions are made every day that compromise the long-term health of this nation in the name of short-term personal gain and the universal excuse of “shareholder value”. Corporations in the US don’t have anywhere near the commitment to “society” or the common good they do in Japan or most European nations, and you see executive compensation racing wildly in front of the “rank and file” as a result. Eventually, we may grow to be indistinguishable from Latin America in class structure, if a revolution doesn’t happen first.

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  220. “Your comp depends, to any meaningful degree, on your “salary”?”

    no, not at all, 100% commission based… but they can (and have been) fucking with payout rates on commissions generated in a wide variety of ways

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  221. Sid, don’t disagree that corporations make short term decisions and no longer seem to have a societal contract. However, that is not the same thing as some over arching conspiracy either. It is just a natural result of globalization opening up new and cheaper labor markets. Corporate managers are making decisions that are compartmentalized within the context of their competitive industry.

    I worked on a post merger integration case and evaluated closing some plants as we rationalized product lines and operations between two companies. There wasn’t some evil Spectre conspiracy where executives were looking to eliminate jobs, etc. It was just a decision that needed to be made.

    But again, where is the consumer’s responsibility? Their hands are not clean either. Why is it greed when a company is responding to market pressures but not greed when a consumer is commoditizing everything?

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  222. “Well, I assume those were pretty routine jobs. Those are definitely at risk. But the part of the narrative that I find concerning is the notion that management somehow keeps all these savings for themselves”

    I don’t think it’s the CEO who is keeping all of the money for himself, but rather those at the VP and SVP level. They are given a departmental budget. They are loathe to add anyone and quick to get rid of any underling who starts costing them a noticeable amount of money. These people end up with big bonuses and merit increases because of all the savings they bring to the company. When the department starts losing money, they always find someone else to blame. They take no responsibility for their departments. They make no plans for their departments. They go to meetings all day, where they do nothing and are unable to understand the basics of anything outside of their narrow knowledge base. They are usually loud and talk excitedly about growing the business. There is never any follow through and always someone to blame if someone in the C suite notices their incompetence.

    The one thing they will spend money on is consultants. Consultants who tell them the same thing we tell them, but they believe the consultants because of their flashiness. They will never act on anything the consultants advise either.

    It’s a wonder the place I work for stays in business. The only thing we have going for us is IP. The IP is honestly on shaky ground and I watch as the SVPs keep talking about stabilizing it or adding new products, but it never happens. One unfavorable court ruling and the company is going to shatter.

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  223. “but they can (and have been) fucking with payout rates on commissions generated in a wide variety of ways”

    a sincere q. you don’t have an agreement that sets out the material terms of how you are compensated?

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  224. “One unfavorable court ruling and the company is going to shatter.”

    now I’m interested in who jenny works for.

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  225. “a sincere q. you don’t have an agreement that sets out the material terms of how you are compensated?”

    unfortunately dictated by the company I work for, but yes we have an agreement in place, subject to change apparently…

    clients are charged the same because of agreement nothing changes there, the company is just keeping more of it

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  226. “now I’m interested in who jenny works for.”

    I may divulge after I have a new job. Please don’t dox me if you are able to figure it out yourself.

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