Market Conditions: Could Chicago’s Housing Market Handle Amazon’s 2nd Headquarters?

Hancock picture September 2017

Since Amazon announced it wanted to open up a second headquarters in North America, it has become like the quest to host the Olympic Games among major city (and some not-so-major) mayors and governors as they rush to put together the best “bid.”

Amazon has requirements, however (sorry Gary, Indiana, Tulsa and others hoping to bid), including:

  1. At least 1 million in population
  2. An airport with non-stops to Seattle and DC as well as international destinations
  3. Prefers an urban location with access to public transportation

It could bring as many as 50,000 jobs (not all at once, obviously) and may spend up to $5 billion building out a campus. Most of the jobs will be managerial/administrative in nature, such as tech, accounting etc. The average pay is around $100,000.

According to many urban planners, Chicago is among the forefront of those who would be bidding on it.

But could our housing market handle it?

Can we house the first couple of thousand employees who would show up to work here?

Crain’s looked at possible impacts:

  • Amazon employees would create another Bucktown, perhaps on the West Side. An influx of high-end buyers could “speed up the process that we already see in the West Loop and Fulton Market,” said Thad Wong, a co-head of real estate brokerage @properties. As North Side neighborhoods all along Milwaukee Avenue fill up, “it’s inevitable that people look west,” Wong said. With good CTA service, ample classic Chicago buildings mixed among empty land and great parks, East Garfield Park and later West Garfield Park might see a wave of rehab and renewal wash in.
  •  Anti-gentrification flareups would multiply. Seattle’s tech boom, fueled by Microsoft and other employers, not just Amazon, has made it one of the nation’s most unequal cities as measured by household income, with lower- and middle-income people moving farther out in search of affordable housing. In Chicago, where established populations have fought against gentrification in Bridgeport, Humboldt Park, Uptown and other areas, “you would see increased pressure on lower-income households and increased tension over the need for affordable housing,” said Geoff Smith, executive director at the Institute for Housing Studies at DePaul University.
  • Fears of an apartment downturn would dissipate. “There are thousands and thousands of new apartments being built downtown in the next few years,” said Gary Lucido, president of Lucid Realty based in West Town. With about 8,000 apartments scheduled for completion in 2017 and 2018, on top of thousands opened in the past few years, rents have been dropping to get them filled up. “In the absence of Amazon,” Lucido said, “are we facing a glut?”

The developers of the Finkl steel site, which is along the Chicago River in Lincoln Park/Bucktown, are said to be putting together a proposal involving their mixed use parcel.

Another juicy possibility, is Related’s 60-acre parcel along the south branch of the Chicago River, south of Roosevelt Road and north of Chinatown. With the Riverline development already happening just north of it, it’s inevitable that a riverwalk will extend down that entire shore line with multiple water taxi stops, shops and restaurants.

Related’s property also could incorporate Metra and possibly a Red Line stop.

There’s also talk of the Old Main Post Office in the West Loop which is awaiting renovation.

Whichever city Amazon chooses will see big impacts.

Do the pros outweigh the cons for Chicago? Or will the city who “wins” end up regretting it?

What would Amazon do to Chicago’s housing market? [Crain’s Chicago Business, by Dennis Rodkin, September 14, 2017]

300 Responses to “Market Conditions: Could Chicago’s Housing Market Handle Amazon’s 2nd Headquarters?”

  1. The main reason a city might regret winning this would be if the tax breaks and other incentives Amazon will doubtless be seeking and necessary to “win” this proved to be too generous and outweighed the benefits. Otherwise, sure some might bemoan gentrification or housing prices shooting up in certain areas, but I can’t imagine it wouldn’t be a net positive if the winning entity doesn’t give away too much in the process. Chicago is big enough that any market equilibrium disrupted by something like this would be restored in relatively short order.

    This is the kind of situation where Illinois and Chicago’s high taxes, corruption, crime and general lack of having their shit together will likely prevent getting too far in this process, unfortunately.

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  2. I hear the McDonalds campus in Oak Brook is open. I love how all these companies are moving back to Chicago so they can attract ‘millenials’ and younger workers, while nearly all of their Gen X and older workers live in the suburbs. Probably because the ‘tech’ companies rarely hire anyone over 30 and engage in blatant age discrimination, so they don’t really care to hire the 32 year old working couple with two children living right outside the city limits. I wonder sometimes if these companies continue to have a difficult time recruiting workers after moving to the city because it’s a PITA to commute downtown living in the ‘burbs w/ children. It’s 55 minutes door to door every day on the METRA for me and I live as the crow files roughly 15 miles. On days where I have to drive downtown? Fugetaboutit. It’s 75-90 minutes if I leave at 7:30 a.m. I can drive 50 miles to Joliet in less than an hour but it takes me 1.5x that to go 15 miles downtown. I think Cat did the right thing and moved to Deerfield, which is just a hop, skip and a jump away from the North Shore where most of the executives with families will be living anyways. These families have little interest in living in urban LP after growing up downstate. Amazon, if it doesn’t engage in age discrimination, may run into a problem hiring suburbanites to get to the potential LP campus. Even living in somewhere like Elmhurst, with lots of younger high income earning families and households, right outside the western portion of the county, would be a nightmare trying to get to LP.

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  3. How could a city possibly regret getting Amazon – unless, as Sid V said above, you give away too much? The thing about Chicago is that we have underutilized land all over the place. Finkl Steel is just one of the biggest and most obvious examples. We just keep coming up with parcels of land for building stuff on and then there are numerous teardown opportunities. Lots of room to build west and south too.

    The anti-gentrifiers are going to throw up roadblocks but in the end they are going to lose. The laws of economics are all powerful. The vast majority of people want more jobs, more trendy coffee shops, better paying jobs, and less crime. And if you are a property owner in a gentrifying community you walk away a huge winner. It can be life changing. In East/ Ukrainian Village you have people selling the building they bought for $80K for $550K.

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  4. I am one of those people who simply will not work in the suburbs. While job hunting I noticed that many companies, especially smaller ones, are disingenuous about their location in the job description. I have started looking up the locations of these companies before applying.

    I highly doubt Amazon will move to Chicago. This city and state are unbearably corrupt. Chicago doesn’t deserve to have nice things. If I didn’t have my entire support system here, I would move to a less corrupt city with better weather.

    Chicago would have no problem absorbing more people in terms of housing. It would be fantastic if more neighborhoods gentrified. I can’t understand why people don’t want their neighborhoods to become more gentrified. Are they against less violence, less garbage strewn everywhere, and nice restaurants? Are they against making money off of their houses? I don’t understand the idea of being so connected to a single neighborhood that you can’t bear to leave. If Pilsen becomes gentrified, the renters can move to McKinley Park or Heart of Chicago. Why do people care so much about living in one precise location? I would be disappointed if I had to move because I could no longer afford my place, but I would also be very happy if the price spiked and I could make a ton of money when selling.

    I think the only problem with bringing middle class out of staters to Chicagog would be the strain on the private school system in Chicago. It’s already very difficult to get into a decent public school and not that easy to get into a high quality private school. Over time, more private schools will spring up though, so it will work out in the end.

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  5. It has to be the renters complaining about gentrification, right? That can be the only logical group. It has to do with your concept of home. Some people associate it with a specific place and others take it with them wherever they go.

    As for the schools…as the demographics of a school shift to higher income they magically become “good schools”. It’s in the data. But higher income people have to send their kids there.

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  6. I suspect Amazon has already made the decision on where to locate and they are now “accepting bids” to get leverage when negotiating with their chosen city. Unfortunately, dozens of cities and towns are wasting their time.

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  7. “Chicago would have no problem absorbing more people in terms of housing. It would be fantastic if more neighborhoods gentrified. I can’t understand why people don’t want their neighborhoods to become more gentrified. ”

    Because jenny, as a whole, people are fucking stupid

    especially boorish wannabe know it all lower class Chicagoans

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  8. Gary & Jenny,

    I understand your position that gentrification is good, but you have to look at it from a different standpoint. Let’s say for example, your neighborhood underwent a transformation. It started out with one halal butcher, and then another halal grocer, followed by the closure of coffee shops, replaced with corner stores that used to be starbucks but are now cell phone shops selling calling cards and burkas. Within a few years you start hearing calls to prayer 5x a day.

    Would you stay in the neighborhood? It’s diverse, rich in culture, crime is still low and property values remain flat to slightly increasing. Despite these obvious benefits, you would probably not. The nature, character, and culture of your neighborhood is gone and replaced by essentially a foreign and unfamiliar element. Gone are the coffee shops and bars and replaced are mosques and halal grocers. It becomes unrecognizable to you.

    That’s exactly how ‘gentrifying’ areas look at the invasion of young upper middle class professionals. Gone are their familiar bodegas, stores and grocers and they are replaced with bank branches, expensive coffee shops and trendy expensive restaurants they do not care nor can afford to eat at. Their neighbors, friends, relatives, peers are either forced out when rents get to high, or sell – although increasing property values are a good thing, no amount of money can replace a lifelong friendship with neighbors on your block. ample parking suddenly becomes scarce, tattoo’d hipsters from WI arrive thinking west town is just a larger madison with fewer lakes, and suddenly property taxes double or triple. They didn’t ask for this, they didn’t want this, all they wanted was to live. Not everybody wants trendy restaurants or coffee shops. Just as you don’t want your trendy coffee shops replaced by madrassas or mosques.

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  9. To me the notion of a permanent neighborhood is a foreign concept. I have not, nor has anyone that I know, had a lifelong friendship with anyone that has been dependent upon their proximity to them. (actually, I take that back. There were the Flintstones, the Ricardos, and the Kramdens). I think the longest I lived in one place was around 10 years. If I don’t like what a neighborhood is or has become I move. The only constant in the universe is change. I guarantee you that in 100 years everyone’s neighborhood will be different and there is not point in trying to stop the change.

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  10. Gary, your outlook is different as an educated, upper class professional.

    Many people in gentrifying neighborhoods simply don’t have the same world view. Their world is the few blocks they grew up on and that is about the extent of it. They don’t have grand plans of going anywhere else and can’t imagine doing so.

    Yes, they appear to be myopic, but it is a completely different mindset. Gentrification is a great thing as the positives far outweigh the negatives imho, but I do understand why some people may not like it.

    Chicago Rapper, Common has a great verse from almost twenty years ago on gentrifying Chicago:

    …Some of this land I must own
    Out of the city, they want us gone
    Tearing down the ‘jects, creating plush homes
    My circumstance is between Cabrini and Love Jones
    Surrounded by hate, yet I love home
    Asked my guy how traveling the world sounds
    Found it hard to imagine, he hadn’t been past downtown

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  11. The people who get gentrified should thank god for that. They get to sell their crap house for a big profit and move wherever they like or they can remain in their improved neighborhood that now has less violence and crime and more services funded by new tax money.

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  12. HD is right about location. Amazon is an employer that will need to draw from people across the entire metro area. The only place in Chicago HQ2 could be and accomplish that is within a mile and a half or so of the west loop train stations. Ain’t nobody commuting from Naperville to Lincoln Park or Barrington to Bronzeville (Michael Reese site). The only immediately viable sites are Rezkoville or the Old Main Post office. Anywhere else would require assembling a group of properties capable of handling 2+ Sears Towers worth of office space.

    “it’s a PITA to commute downtown living in the ‘burbs”

    And yet over 100,000 people do it every day. It may be a pain, but its certainly not a deal breaker for most people.

    I still believe they will end up in Dallas (Texas being the most business friendly state) or Northern Virginia (near the internet, WaPo, and Congress)

    I don’t think second-tier smaller cities have a chance. No city in the country has 50,000 unemployed people qualified for $100k jobs, so they will have to recruit new population to wherever they go. Sorry, Louisville, KY, but I just don’t see you, or St Louis, or Omaha, Indianapolis, or Cincinnati, or Milwaukee, or Cleveland, yada yada yada being enough of a draw to entice the workforce they will need.

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  13. “They get to sell their crap house for a big profit and move wherever they like or they can remain in their improved neighborhood that now has less violence and crime and more services funded by new tax money.”

    Money isn’t everything and not every resident prays to the alter of property values. Some just want to live where they live.

    My neighborhood/subdivision where I grew up ‘changed’ quite drastically in less than 5-10 years time. It went from primarily middle class to lower working class very quickly, and most of the residents got the heck out of there in the late 1990’s including my parents. property values today are only slightly higher than they were in 2000 and foreclosure continue to decimate the area. Why is this not a ‘good’ change?

    Property values became more affordable, taxes went down, the subdivision became more diverse and there were plenty of buyers for the area as new residents move in to replace the middle class that fled. Why is this gentrification ‘bad’ but other upper middle class gentrification ‘good’? In both cases, people are being replaced by foreigners to the area and cultural and other less visable changes are occurring. NOt everyone prays to the alter of rising property values.

    and don’t forget that when on the property value roller coaster, you may sell for a higher value, but you have to go and buy a replacement property that is also very high priced too.

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  14. ” It may be a pain, but its certainly not a deal breaker for most people.”

    It’s certainly a deal breaker for many, but not all workers. The waiting lists for parking spots downtown at stations in the ‘burbs are often years long and that certainly plays in to consideration where to live and work. The average joe living in suburuban cook county (which is actually more people than living in the city itself) if had a choice between driving to Orland/Oak Brook/Schaumburg (pick the closest) or commuting downtown, more than half for sure would pick the nearest suburb. I have a buddy who lived in Schaumubger and worked downtown for a few weeks before realizing the commute was awful, and was fortunate enough to get his old job back. that’s something that only happens in a tight labor market

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  15. “Many people in gentrifying neighborhoods simply don’t have the same world view.”

    Why don’t they change their world view then? People have to adapt and change. Life doesn’t always stay the same. No one is entitled to stay in any particular neighborhood. The anti-gentrifiers always complain that the middle class feels “entitled” to this or that, but forget that they are acting very entitled when they lay claim on a neighborhood and call it theirs. Neighborhoods don’t belong to anyone.

    HD, I would not want to live in a 100% Muslim neighborhood and would be upset if that happened in my neighborhood. I wouldn’t go around picketing or waving signs about how the Muslims are ruining the neighborhood. People are allowed to live wherever they can afford to live in this country. I’m allowed to leave if I want to leave.

    In situations where the opposite of gentrification happens, it’s worse because your property loses value and everything you built up over the years goes to shit. I feel badly for people whose neighborhoods go downhill. I’m worried that it’s happening in my neighborhood, but when I look at the crime maps, it’s still considered “safe” by the real estate sites that have crime tracking overlays.

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  16. “To me the notion of a permanent neighborhood is a foreign concept.”

    I bought my house from the original owner, and the two houses on either side of me recently turned over when their original owners died too. They were replaced by similar families. This place hasn’t barely changed in 50 years and some of us like it that way.

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  17. “as the demographics of a school shift to higher income they magically become “good schools”. It’s in the data.”

    Basically every school in CPS with below 50% low income is “good” (or good enough to consider). Basically only selective enrollment school with over 50% low income are “good”.

    “I don’t think second-tier smaller cities have a chance. ”

    I say that the dark horse is Cincy. Don’t think it is necessarily a top tier option, but it will show up on most ‘smart’ lists.

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  18. “Why is this not a ‘good’ change?”

    In Garyland all changes like this happen for a reason so they are all generally good – unless an entire city is on the decline because of bad economic forces. The fundamental concept in real estate, which is really true of all assets, is “highest and best use”. In the long run real estate will be used for its best purpose. You can try to subvert that for short periods but not in the long run.

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  19. “Why is this gentrification ‘bad’”

    Words have meaning, man. And what you describe AIN’T “gentrification”.

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  20. @ Russ

    Respiration is one of my favorite songs

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  21. I think smaller cities have a better chance that you think. Small cities mean lower cost of living and lower salaries. A $100k in cincy or st louis goes much further than any large city; whereas in a larger city the employees may ask for $150 or more. And when some seattle residents learn that in flyover country they can get a house with a pool on 1/4 acre with a 30 min commute for less than rent on their crappy two bed in King County, WA, some will certainly take the bait.

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  22. anon(tfo) it’s diversification more than gentrification but the effects on the former residents are the same.

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  23. “I think smaller cities have a better chance that you think. Small cities mean lower cost of living and lower salaries.”

    Top tech talent is attracted to places like San Francisco and Seattle that have a cool vibe with lots to do and a critical mass of young people. I think very few cities have that and the east coast cities are too expensive. I think Chicago has a good shot unless Amazon is worried about the local government.

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  24. So what if someone from Barrington doesn’t want to commute to Lincoln Park. There are enough people that would commute from Barrington and everywhere else. And neighborhoods gentrify. Boohoo. Somebody doesn’t like Starbucks in their neighborhood. Then get in your Alderman office and discuss your issues with him. Life, and progress, always find a way. And Boohoo to anybody thinking Amazon ruins other businesses. Progress always knocks down something to create something else. That rotten scoundrel, Henry Ford, put all those Blacksmiths out of businesss. All those hansom cab makers were knocked out as well by Mr. Ford. Buggy whips, all gone. Junky industrialist selfish rotten Henry Ford. (Eye roll).

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  25. @ Sonies. I’d argue one of the top 10 hip hop songs of all time. The lyricism and flows are just poetically brilliant from Mos, Talib and Common. All three verses are genius.

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  26. You’re defending Henry Ford the Nazi?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/the-dark-legacy-of-henry-fords-anti-semitism-commentary/2014/10/10/c95b7df2-509d-11e4-877c-335b53ffe736_story.html

    But your defending an racist aside, you’re missing the point on Amazon if you think that Amazon is playing by the same rules as your bricks and motor stores. Toys R’ Us went BK in part due to Amazon’s legacy of unfair competition, although the leverage buyout by Bain didn’t help the situation either.

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  27. I don’t know Henry Ford so I’m not defending him. But, what I am defending is progress. I don’t think Amazon has to play by the same rules. Why should they? They built a better mousetrap. End of story. Toys R Us went bankrupt because their prices were too high and their customer service sucked. I went in to several stores looking for something last year and employees, for the most part, were in a coma. I’m happy to have an Amazon to go to when I need to. But I don’t buy on price alone, and when I need service, I don’t use Amazon.

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  28. “Then get in your Alderman office and discuss your issues with him.”

    I really wish this kind of garbage was illegal. Alderman shouldn’t get to decide what sorts of businesses occupy a neighborhood. If a Starbucks moves in and people are unhappy about it, then they can vote with their feet and not give it business.

    I also wish they would stop their god damned gerrymandering. For instance, Solis was removed as my neighborhood’s alederman because there aren’t enough Mexican voters here. He’s now one block south and is trying his hardest to keep Pilsen from becoming middle class to the detriment of all of the surrounding neighborhoods. My neighborhood was given an alderman from Bridgeport because apparently, the city thinks that we need a white alderman here. The African American neighborhood, slightly to the west of us, has a different alderman because they “need” a black alderman. Aldermanic races are a joke. Solis is never going to be forced from office because his ward will continually be redrawn so that it only encompasses his supporters. He’ll be the only candidate on the ballot for year after year because he’s now powerful enough that he would take down any other candidate with any corrupt means possible.

    We ended up with an alderman who doesn’t care about our area because we’re such a small slice of voters compared to the rest of his ward.
    Map of ward: http://www.ward11.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Capital-Improvement-Map.jpg

    I wish they would just scrap the aldermanic system entirely.

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  29. “the effects on the former residents are the same”

    So, your parents and their neighbors sold their homes for way more than the expected value? Because of the high demand from renovators and developers?

    No, the effect on the former residents is NOT the same. Some similarities, yes, but also some similarities with any “forced” relocation.

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  30. “Toys R Us went bankrupt because their prices were too high and their customer service sucked.”

    FALSE!!

    They went bankrupt bc the LBO of the company was premised, in significant part, on a commercial real estate play that didn’t really pan out. Company couldn’t be a homerun for its buyers (KKR, Vornado and…TPG??) with $5B in debt, and minimal RE value to unlock.

    Debtholders didn’t want to restructure out of court, the news of no imminent deal scared suppliers (who do *very poorly* in BK, if they are operating on normal terms immediately prior) and, voila, cash crunch at a critical time for their most important sales season.

    So, no, it wasn’t about prices and service, tho that plays some part, of course.

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  31. HD is right, the third was Bain, not TPG.

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  32. I have taken down an Alderman or two in my time. It’s not that hard. A little organization, letter writing, a few posts on social media, having a hissy fit or two, it works. If you don’t like your Alderman, there are always more like you. Find them.

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  33. The terrible customer service and high prices were a symptom of the LBO. They didn’t want to pay for employees because they were too busy paying interest on the debt.

    I’ve been in TrUs a few times in the last year. Ti’s not that bad. It’s expensive because they stock so much inventory. They’ve got nearly everything you can expect to aisles to browse, every board game, crayola art supply, doll, figurine, ball, etc. It’s not cheap to keep that stuff in stock, especially when 99% of it sits on the shelf all year.

    Toys r Us is no stranger to tax avoidance either (ie Geoffrey cases) but Amazon really takes it to another level. It’s not building a better mousetrap – virtually every company has an online store. Amazon’s real issue is that it’s european headquarters is in luxenboug and it pays virtually no tax on it’s european sales.

    Also, this:

    “Brick-and-mortar retailers, for example, aren’t as politically popular as manufacturers or technology companies and haven’t persuaded Congress to create a lot of special tax breaks. Retailers also can’t easily pretend their business is based overseas. As a result, CVS, Home Depot, Walmart and Target have all been paying a combined tax rate of more than 30 percent, more than twice as high as Amazon’s rate.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/18/opinion/the-big-companies-that-avoid-taxes.html

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  34. Why do people still shop in stores? You can buy the same toys and more on Amazon. Why would you shop at ToysRUs? You could take the kids shopping or you could spend that time doing something fun and interesting with the kids. We get very little time to spend with loved ones. Why spend it in a store?

    I needed to buy a suit for my interviews and the idea of going into a store filled me with dread. I went to Brooks Brothers Online, found a nice suit on clearance, and bought it. My friends thought I was nuts because it’s important to have a properly fitted suit, but the idea of actually dealing with a sales person and having them measure me made me feel unhappy. They listed the measurements online, so why in the world would I bother going into the bricks and mortar store?

    I will buy almost anything online. The two exceptions are used cars and real estate.

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  35. ” Amazon’s real issue is that it’s european headquarters is in luxenboug and it pays virtually no tax on it’s european sales.”

    That sounds like Europe “real issue”. If their tax laws are that forgiving to companies based in *European* tax havens, one has to ask why the Europeans put up with those tiny fiefdoms.

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  36. I copied these from a FB thread that argued the pros and cons of Gentrification.

    Is Gentrification good or bad? Yes.

    **While it’s unfortunate for the people who are displaced, I feel it’s for the betterment of the city and therefore for the common good. We should not forget that, at one point decades before, the previous homeowners watched their neighborhood decline and values plummet. It was unfortunate for those people too. That is just the way it is in a big city.

    **Let’s call gentrification for what it is a fancy term for red lining and unfortunately minorities are getting the worst end of it. Slummification and gentrification are two sides of the same coin. Neither happens accidentally. Sometimes the same speculators are the beneficiaries of both tactics. It’s always about the money. The people living in those neighborhoods are just chess pieces to be moved around.

    ***The worst part of gentrification is that real estate taxes are based on current assessed value rather than value at purchase as it is in some states. This means that you can lose your house if the value of your neighborhood goes up.

    ***gentrification helps bolster the city economy, create jobs through the opening of new local businesses, and in the long run that added revenue helps keep social services and funds needed to help lower income families.

    ****Gentrification boils down to systematic repair and remodeling. There is nothing wrong with that as long as people are not forced to do it or forced to sell because they can no longer pay the property taxes, due to the fact that their neighbors have improved their property and the county says that therefor your property is worth more. It is the property tax system which is the problem. Don’t get me wrong – I am not a Republican. Taxes are needed. The question of fairness is the problem. Just realize that property taxes are really wealth taxes, and you have to pay on potential wealth as well.

    ***A lot of people argue that gentrification is good for neighborhoods, because higher property taxes can lead to better services/schools. That argument is pretty easily debunked, because the improved services are no longer available to the original residents because they were displaced. Gentrification can make an area “better,” but for whom?

    *** Before the process of gentrification can start in a neighborhood there was a long period of disinvestment in the neighborhood and the first question should be why did that happen. Flippers and developers will only make their entrance where they can buy low and sell higher. Isn’t the real problem disinvestment?

    *** Where a neighborhood will go upscale, which seemingly would be a good thing—-preserve the old, right? Not so. Many vintage bldgs. Are razed to make way for high-end condos. The local businesses and mom and pop stores are pushed out to make way for the chains the new young hipsters require. The kiss of death is the opening of Starbucks usually. The working class people, especially the old ethnics, usually have to move along. Some see it as victory—-a gang presence may have been eliminated, perhaps. But it’s not always a positive transition,

    **Gentrification wouldn’t be so bad if the wealthy didn’t hate the un-wealthy so much and would allow them to share the space. Less wealthy people tend to have issues with wealthy people as well (jealousy and whatnot). Preservation has its strong points but progress is far better.

    *** I remember when the DePaul neighborhood here in Chicago gentrified. Property taxes rose so high it seemed overnight. People who had lived in the neighborhood for years, even seniors who brought up their kids there before the senior tax freeze, were forced to leave. What was formerly a middle class, family neighborhood became a playground for the rich. My rent doubled and my family was forced to leave when my daughter was 2 years old.

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  37. Amazon is very shrewd. I’m assuming they have a very short list of acceptable cities for HQ2 but know that just announcing the relocation along with the sweet tax package they get would cause a backlash. By creating a “competition” the “winning” city’s population will focus on the prestige of having been selected by Amazon rather than the tax dollars it took. This will also make delivering on those tax incentives (city and state approval) easier.

    Regarding the ‘burbs. Amazon doesn’t give a sht about them. In fact they have a vested interest in promoting continued migration into cities. Why? They are a logistics company whose largest cost (after the actual cost of the items it sells) is delivery. What makes delivery costs decrease? Higher population density.

    I expect Chicago has a very good shot if they can assure Amazon the tax climate remains stable for them. Its one of the few cities that gets new services as a beta tester before wider rollout – Prime Now, Google Express, Instacart, etc. plus checks all the other boxes for Amazon (assuming the tax # are ok).

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  38. Oh no! My house is worth more than I paid for it! Damn you people that are willing to pay me a bunch of money for my crappy house in a neighborhood that used to be dangerous but is now pretty nice.

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  39. My house has become worth more than what I think I should have invested in a house. On that basis alone I should move. If you add in the additional property tax burden it’s a no-brainer.

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  40. My bet is on Denver. Denver has far less downsides than Chicago (taxes and expenses) and a lot of upsides (talent pool and recreation)

    I heard that Amazon wants an urban “campus”. With easy access by road, bus, and rail. I discount the Old Chicago Post Office, I don’t think that fits. The other Chicago locations all need better rail access. At least new stations for existing rail lines. Amazon could buy a big campus site close to an existing Denver RTD station.

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  41. I think Chicago will get Amazon and the location will be the old post office…

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  42. I think Chicago is in the running. Denver – – no robust public transit (unless it has changed dramatically since I was there last three years ago). Boston and DC are both too expensive. That $100K average salary won’t go far in either of those urban settings.

    Chicago actually checks all the boxes. It’s ours to lose.

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  43. “a big campus site close to an existing Denver RTD station”

    Where?

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  44. Denver is too close to home. I’d imagine they will want to be east of the Mississippi, or in Texas.

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  45. Has everyone seen this? Obviously he has a slant but I tend to agree with him. http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170919/BLOGS02/170919877/chicago-a-top-prospect-in-amazon-headquarters-sweepstakes

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  46. “My bet is on Denver. Denver has far less downsides than Chicago (taxes and expenses) and a lot of upsides (talent pool and recreation)”

    Denver doesn’t have the tech labor pool nor does it have the housing market to handle an influx of thousands.

    According to the data, only 4 cities have the tech labor pool that Amazon is looking for: Chicago, NYC, Washington DC and San Francisco. Few cities also have the administrative/accounting/managerial work force already in place as well (if they’re going to poach some from existing companies.)

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  47. “I’m assuming they have a very short list of acceptable cities for HQ2 but know that just announcing the relocation along with the sweet tax package they get would cause a backlash.”

    Allegedly, the short list was Toronto and Boston but for some reason decided neither one was good enough.

    No city meets all the criteria, actually. Some, like Chicago, meet many. How will they ultimately choose? (shrugs)

    But an employer with that many skilled jobs, even if they “only” hire 5,000 to begin with, could be very disruptive. Hell, all of you think that Google is a big factor in the West Loop’s housing prices when they only had 500 sales jobs here.

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  48. I think you’re right but what data are you looking at?

    San Francisco makes no sense because of geography, cost, and labor shortage. And NYC and DC are too expensive and a central location makes a lot more sense.

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  49. “Why do people still shop in stores?”

    It’s a social experience that most humans love. That’s why it’s been around for thousands of years.

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  50. “I think smaller cities have a better chance that you think. Small cities mean lower cost of living and lower salaries. A $100k in cincy or st louis goes much further than any large city; whereas in a larger city the employees may ask for $150 or more.”

    But a smaller city won’t have the labor pool necessary. The talent won’t be there. As it is, Amazon has overwhelmed Seattle and it has Microsoft and Starbucks already there so it’s not exactly a light weight.

    Additionally, the airports will likely be a problem in smaller cities like Cincinnati. While they will have Seattle and DC routes, their international pickings are much slimmer.

    Also, about 10 years ago, one of the big Japanese auto makers (I forget which one, Nissan perhaps?) decided to move its North American headquarters from LA to Nashville. It flew employees out to Nashville to look around. It made them all job offers. The standard of living was also much lower in Nashville, obviously. Weather still pretty good (as far as snow and cold that Californians would be worried about).

    But still, more than half said “no thanks” and quit the company.

    Additionally, we don’t know how many employees will actually move from the mother ship versus totally new hires. But clearly housing/cost of living will likely play a big role. It’s one of the reasons Amazon needs a second headquarters in the first place. They can’t attract the talent to Seattle anymore as housing prices are just too crazy now. Many good candidates say “no” now.

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  51. “I think you’re right but what data are you looking at?”

    The labor data. I’ll see if I can find the link.

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  52. A bunch of the requirements are plugged in here. The maps showing which cities “win” each requirements are pretty cool.

    St. Louis “wins” in housing as it is building housing in excess of demand (because people are moving away, probably.)

    Chicago is strong in both labor components (including paying salaries lower than they’d have to pay in Seattle.)

    https://medium.com/migration-issues/no-room-at-the-inn-for-amazon-effda4edc00f

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  53. His conclusion:

    “There are just 3 such metro areas: Chicago, Philadelphia, and Washington. Chicago earns points for its strong labor pool for Amazon, its transportation and logistical infrastructure, and its presence in a blue state. Washington earns points for its educated workforce, transportation infrastructure, being in blue states, and the special “Jeff Bezos has a house here” point. Philadelphia earns points for a combination of good housing supply and a good talent pipeline, along with decent scores for infrastructure.”

    But where will they WANT to put it?

    I hope they decide quickly.

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  54. Also, one other thing that hasn’t been mentioned is time zones.

    For anyone that has worked at a company headquartered on one coast with offices on the other, the 3 hour time difference really sucks. It actually IS a hindrance to business.

    At least Chicago is just 2 hours difference from Seattle. Might not seem like a big deal but the hour makes a big difference.

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  55. Time zones don’t matter anymore. They used to, when we were in a 9-5 world with landline phone being the main communication. Now people answer their emails at midnight, text on the way to the office or at the airport.

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  56. I hope Chicago gets Amazon because I think it will be good for salaries and property values. I don’t think Chicago deserves Amazon. The shear corruption in this city is astounding. We don’t deserve nice things. Politicians especially don’t deserve to put this feather in their caps.

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  57. “Time zones don’t matter anymore.”

    The same people who try to impress people at cocktail parties by saying they work for a National/International company forget that very thing when they are at the office.

    They not only think everyone they interact with via email/IM/phone is not only in their time zone but in their freaking office.

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  58. Chicago totally deserves Amazon. What it doesn’t deserve is the “leadership” we have.

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  59. Gonefishin. Coompanies aren’t paying for that increased productivity either. Email and cell phones have become electronic leashes.

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  60. Russ, it depends on the position. Obviously, a bonus or commission based income, the company does pay for the added productivity. But, agreed, a salaried position, such as an assistant or mailroom guy, the productivity isn’t paid for. But I doubt the lower positions, such as the mailroom guy is texting his boss at 5am about the mail issues.

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  61. People overplay the “Chicago is corrupt” trope, newsflash, everywhere is corrupt. Chicago didn’t invent pay to play, cronyism or racketeering. In fact, one could look at Chicago and Illinois’ track record of actually indicting aldermen, reps and governors as a sign we might be one of the most transparent governments around. Go down south and tell me the good ‘ol boy networks are less corrupt than here.

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  62. I dislike the whole “salary” concept. Companies can continually add more and more duties, but never pay people extra for doing those duties. It also rarely swings the opposite way. I never work less than my company’s stated 37.5 hour work week, even if it happens to be a slow week. Leaving early is noticed and commented on, so I don’t do it. On the other hand, on weeks where I work 50+ hours, there is no extra compensation or extra vacation time added to my pool of hours. No one says “thank you” for putting in all of those extra hours. Bonuses/merit increases are given out based on who the VP likes the best and whose job she can understand. Our VP doesn’t grasp the concept that jobs outside of sales have any value.

    I think I’m getting close to finding a new job. I need to work somewhere that’s less toxic or at least where the toxins are novel.

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  63. Marko – – I agree. I lived someplace that actually was truly corrupt…a plantation mentality if you will. 90% of the population lived on 10% of the total wealth. You got nothing in return for being a law abiding tax paying citizen. Chicago with all of it’s gorgeous parks, festivals and culture with believe it or not – – fairly comparably taxes (!!!) is way less corrupt than my former home. I love it here.

    It is also incredibly naive to think that corruption could ever be eliminated ANYWHERE. It is part of the human condition.

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  64. “Time zones don’t matter anymore.”

    What? do you never have conference calls?

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  65. “Chicago didn’t invent pay to play, cronyism or racketeering…”

    Yes they did. Capone and Dillinger didn’t hang around Chicago because of the lakefront.

    And, the comment about Chicago/Illinois being transparent is malarkey. It’s not like we police ourselves, The Feds come in and take everybody down. Govs Blag, Ryan, Walker, all federal. Even gross Mel Reynolds went down by the Feds as did Rostenkowski. The only politician the Feds couldn’t get was Mayor Daley. God knows they tried. In fact, I think he made a deal that he would not seek another term and the Feds backed off.

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  66. There is always going to be corruption, but Illinois and Chicago throw it in our faces with ever-increasing taxes, which go to fund the elite lifestyles of their core voters (government union employees). Few people under 40 are ever going to retire, but we have to fund the lifestyles of these lazy retirees.

    Other things I can think of off of the top of my head: Traffic cameras that were installed by the mayor’s friends and gave tickets out erroneously, city parking meters sold off, wrought iron fencing contracts given to the mayor’s friends, DMV selling licenses in return for funding the governor’s campaign, extreme gerrymandering, aldermen who hire their friends and family to work in their ward offices, Cook County adding a soda tax so that Preckwinkle can keep her large staff and not have to manage a budget…the list goes on and on. Yes, we aren’t as bad as countries like Russia where you have to pay bribes as part of your daily life, but it’s still unacceptable in this country.

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  67. ““Chicago didn’t invent pay to play, cronyism or racketeering…”

    “Yes they did.”

    Huh. Didn’t realize that Plunkitt was actually a Chicagoan. Could have sworn that Tammany Hall was in NY, and was founded when Illinois was still part of the NW Territory.

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  68. I think Chicago will win the bid. Amazon and GlobohomoBezos and his Wapo-linked Leftist cadre of minority and feminist quota hires will have to choose a Blue state and Chicago could produce all the quota hires and leftist brainwashed under-30 millennials needed. So, that rules out places like up-and-coming Nashville or Dallas.

    I think Bezos (crypto?) will find comfort in a city and state run by globohomoists (Obama, (((Rahm))), (((Rauner))), (JB Pritzker))), (((Penny Pritzker))), and their (((cucked))) freemason sh!tlib puppets like Chris Kennedy who’s “handler” is (((King Harris))), right out of the Chicago version of Eyes Wide Shut.

    Chicago has the land, the blank canvas Related site is better and bigger than Finkl (which would create a total clusterF).

    We meet all the rest of the criteria, have many good universities and have the airport. We can attract the “talent” which needs to have brewpubs and restaurants and a pride parade.

    It sure will help Chicago RE if we land Amazon. But if we do land that globohomo totalitarian SWPL entity, you can kiss the idea of “the City of Big Shoulders” gone forever. We’ll morph into another globalist, not unique, homogeneously “diverse” and physically androgynous city with the same architecture/design, food, Leftist groupthink, fashion, as so many others. We’ll turn into just another Leftist ersatz and epcot-center “diversity” city where everything is faked from someplace else.

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  69. Every major city has corrupt politicians. I don’t think Chicago is any different in that regard. I think thought it may be a little more out in the open.

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  70. “(((cucked)))”

    Didn’t realize you were jewish, hof. You should do something about that self-loathing. It’s such a trite stereotype.

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  71. that rambling diatribe was borderline schizophrenic, really, it was. He even included the free masons. This is some truly crazy shit.

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  72. “So, that rules out places like up-and-coming Nashville or Dallas.”

    Texas will soon be blue, maybe as soon as 2024, so that’s not an issue if they want a Democratic state. Tennessee is the home of Al Gore so electing Democrats again in that state isn’t wishful thinking.

    Additionally every city they would consider are also blue- some to the tune of 85%-15% in the last national election. Both Dallas and Nashville voted for HRC.

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  73. “you can kiss the idea of “the City of Big Shoulders” gone forever.”

    Chicago hasn’t been the “city of big shoulders” for about 25 years now. Our manufacturing/industrial bent has long been in the rearview mirror.

    But HH wouldn’t know that because he doesn’t live here. Still thinks it’s 1985 as well.

    Chicago is an information city, although farming is still in our blood. We have the largest urban gardens in the country most of which are on the west and south side of the city. I expect that industry to increase in importance going forward as farm-to-table continues to build momentum.

    We do well in creating practical solutions to people’s problems. It’s not a surprise that Groupon is headquartered here as well as Grubhub. Coupons and food delivery. That’s Chicago’s contribution to the Internet economy. Lol.

    We also have some of the largest medical software companies in the country. Again, it goes to our practical nature.

    Both Finkl and Related will get developed. Only question is what tenants will anchor it and if Amazon will be at one of them.

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  74. “that rambling diatribe was borderline schizophrenic, really, it was. He even included the free masons. This is some truly crazy shit.”

    Stuff like that gives neo-Nazis a bad name.

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  75. “Few people under 40 are ever going to retire, but we have to fund the lifestyles of these lazy retirees.”

    That’s a little melodramatic, isn’t it?

    If you put $500 a month into your 401k starting in your 20s you can easily retire. But most don’t do it. So I don’t want to hear the whining.

    And maybe you’re not aware that some states have it even worse than us (yes- believe it or not.) Take Kentucky. $40 billion in underfunded pensions.

    Underfunded pensions are a national problem. There are only 16 states that have it together on their pensions. I guess we have a LOT of lazy retirees. And the price for not preparing (by the Baby Boomers, by the way) is now hitting GenX and in the future, Millennials. The rest of us will have to pay for it.

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  76. “Stuff like that gives neo-Nazis a bad name.”

    Lol!

    Just another reminder: someone who has that much hate for a place does NOT live in that place.

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  77. I looked up “GlobohomoBezos” because I had never heard of the term before. As rambling as HH’s diatribe was, he apparently got that term from some super-alt right blog. Sort of like how this blog uses ‘green zone’; this alt-right website uses Globohomo to describe the how jews and gays are taking over the western world. The site is racist and misogynistic. I didn’t seen any violence advocated, and to HH’s credit, he’s never once advocated violence in his views. But that’s not saying much.

    The site takes the average joe’s subtle xenophobia (I don’t like hearing foreign languages at the grocery store) and puts a NO2 tank on it and speeds past the sound barrier. I feel like HH cuts and pastes the content from there and posts it here on CC, where quite frankly, its WAY off topic. Yeah I know I post off topic a bit but at least it generates heated discussion, even if you don’t agree with my politics on things, it’s still within the range of normal discourse, even if you don’t agree with me.

    But this stuff on this site is out there. And not fringe like abolitionism was ‘fringe’ in 1830 but rather the opposite – it still traffics in the nonsense from the 1903 book “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”. So I guess it’s taking old, long discredited views and trying to make them hip again. Fortunately, Most people aren’t buying into it, and the blogs remain relatively obscure.

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  78. so hh quotes from equivalent of old testament while hd regurgitates from the right’s ‘new testament’ – Breitbart/Fox (talk abt ‘fake news – they’re completely un-tethered from reality while promoting/selling their BS viewpoint like hd does here). So whether it’s hh’s version of hatred or hd’s slightly more nuanced white supremacy (why don’t you respond in ebonics again as a tribute to your respect for the declaration of independence “all men are created equal” diversity hd? F’in’ bigot.) It’s different approaches but same schtick from hh & hd imo

    Hey waddya think about news re Manafort (I know, I know PM was merely briefly & tangentially involved in dt’s pres campaign if even that much right?) Why do u think his attorney/Roger Stone/Gen’l Flynn keep demanding they be provided copies of any tapes where they’re taped conspiring w/foreigners? I believe it’s b/c they need to know with certainty how much prosecutors can prove so they can construct new lies about how little they conspired w/ Putin/Russia/other foreign interests to influence US elections. U know they’re gonna roll before receiving what’d effectively be life sentences right?

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  79. Southbound you are as delusional as HH. Your rants are as equally crazytown as HH too.

    as for the ebonics, I think you referring to the “don’t y’all tell nobody?” from a few days ago.

    you think that was ebonics? is that all you see is race in everything? I was trying to talk like Britney Spears you moron – Google “Britney and Y’all” you stupid moron. She’s got a bunchy of kids too and she’s all trashy. It has nothing to do with Ebonics. Jeez you are truly as crazytown as HH. Yes I am a little embarrassed I was thinking of brittney spears but I say a news story about her earlier that day and it thought it was apropos.

    You’re as stupid as ESPN who fired an analyst for using the world “guerilla” warfare when talking about Venus and he got fired because it sounded too much like “gorilla”. True story

    https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2017/08/25/doug-adler-suing-espn-venus-williams-guerrilla-effect

    They also revmoved an asian guy named RObert Lee from announcing a UV baseketball game because it sounded too much like Robert E Lee

    it’s people like you that make the world a miserable place

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  80. snowflake hd didnt respond re manafort but doubled down lyin’ – hd was jes’ talkin’ southern dialect b/c he was thinking abt Britney Spears when posting:
    “.. Y’all can crucify me for that. Or just let me take my 14 nieces and nephews as dependents on my tax rturn and don’t tell nobody.”

    That’s not racist ‘cuz we all know Britney & her kin folk are who goes to inner city storefront accountants & file returns claiming 14 nieces & nephews as dependents on tax returns (sayin “don’t tell nobody”). Sorry to make your world more miserable than you’ve made it but hey – you deserve it hd you lyin’ sack of sh-t. good day sir

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  81. HD, you are such a cuck. You deserve contempt. You’re like the guy driving a Honda Accord who hates people in faster cars who pass you on the road. So, you shriek: Look at that maniac! Crybaby. southbound is insane and worse. He’s the guy on the bike who hates all people in cars, because they don’t follow his leftist totalitarian ideas. Is there a DSM for anti-white racists who are white? For “Christians” who vote for anti-Christian politicians? southbound, I’m sure there is description for people with such disorder. You have it. Rahm Emanuel doesn’t, he’s the opposite of you.

    HD, do you ever address the issues I bring up, or do you just like whining about “the tone”, waaaaaaaaa!!!!!

    There is nothing wrong with suggesting that Amazon will see a Leftoid home for its new HQ. Does anyone deny that? There is nothing wrong with suggesting that Chicago has morphed from the City of Big Shoulders to an epcot-like Leftoid globohomo metropolis devoid of any uniqueness, with 15 1/2-necked androgynous concave-chested losers who don’t dismiss the transgenderism propaganda.

    The new Fulton Market area is ersatz, and is blandly and homogenously like any other similar area in any other large Western urban area these days. (Sabrina says I don’t live her, which is a bald-faced lie). Go visit Au Cheval and eat the $21 burger (with bacon, egg, tax, and tip, not. incl the fries!)…you’ll see this leftoid globohomo monotony in full display, the mindless groupthink, the same “uniform” of fashion, they’re like robots controlled by hate sites like “Buzzfeed”. I’m embarrassed to say I finally got suckered into trying the “world’s best burger” for $21. It’s a burger with fancy bacon. Sitting next to me was a dude from London in town, who worked in Commercial RE for a large investment firm. The whole scene is contrived and full of lemmings led by the (((marketing))) you find in airplane magazines, CS, Chicago Magazine, etc. The burger is good but certainly not worth $21 for one of them.

    People in the know, like locals, know that the best bar in Chicago (for locals) is the 2nd floor bar at the Mariano’s on Halsted in the West Loop. It’s a secret, but now some of you know. Or you can pay 3x the money to the Girl and the Goat lemming, homogenous sh!tlib scene. Just like (((Au Cheval))), they love taking money from suckers.

    I live in Chicago. In fact, I live in K2 and the bar in the Jewel across from Blommer Chocolate is another secret gem for locals. You’d have to be a moron to go hang out in Fulton Market with all the suburbanites, leftoid suckers handing over their money for overpriced everything, and the tourists who if you un-blindfolded them inside, couldn’t tell you how any of it was unique from anywhere else. Bland.

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  82. “I live in K2”

    So, when they taking away your voucher? Is it the end of the year, or do you have until mid-18?

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  83. Helmet, thanks for letting the cat out of the bag about Kinzie on the rocks. I guess I won’t be alone there eating my lunchtime Caesar salad and a Chardonnay anymore. I guess I can head over to Division on the Rocks before that is all the rage.

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  84. “Chicago has morphed from the City of Big Shoulders to an epcot-like Leftoid globohomo metropolis devoid of any uniqueness, with 15 1/2-necked androgynous concave-chested losers who don’t dismiss the transgenderism propaganda.”

    Ok that was pretty fuckin funny

    as for bars in Grocery stores… yeah we all know about them, its difficult to get bougie friends to hang out there, and of course the stupid bougie women to join

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  85. The irony about HH is that living in the westloop his little world is so small that he thinks everything in the world is the “AirSpace” asthetic https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/06/hipster-aesthetic-taking-over-world when it’s just the small trendy little area he lives in. Maybe if he got out of the 606 zip code he’d see theres an entire world out there and it’s not all AirSpace.

    As for the $20 burger, I think that is more a reflection of commercial real estate rents than the overpriced burger. a restaurateur has to sell A LOT of burgers and baloney sandwiches to cover the monthly rent on the corner of halsted/randolph. one of my buddy is a commercial RE attorney and he told me the rent for a breakfast sandwich shop on the east coast, and my god, you have to sell A LOT of $10 breakfast sandwiches every hour just to cover the rent.

    And HH as for the issues you talk about, I don’t care to address them. I get the anti-white thing, but if you don’t like it, move to Denmark. They don’t let anybody in to their country, same with austria, most of the eastern european countries and my goodness, australia. They used to put illegal immigrants into semi-permanent detention in the middle of the desert thousands of miles from any major city, but now, they’re in detention on some foreign island. You can go there.

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  86. helmethofer is clearly trolling anti-semitic and hate speech, is there a way for mods to ban?

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  87. “I get the anti-white thing, but if you don’t like it, move to Denmark. They don’t let anybody in to their country, same with austria, most of the eastern european countries and my goodness, australia.”

    Anyone part of the EU must let in refugees etc. Denmark and Austria are no longer “white.”

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  88. “I’m embarrassed to say I finally got suckered into trying the “world’s best burger” for $21.”

    If Helmethofer lived in Chicago, he would know that Mott’s is the best burger. In the country. Voted that by some magazine.

    As I’ve said over and over and over again…HH is NOT from Chicago. He doesn’t live here. Never has. He goes on yelp and recites the most obvious restaurants and places. Any of us can do that. So that’s what he does.

    You don’t live in a city you clearly HATE (and yes, the hatred just oozes from his every pore, always has). No sane person would EVER stay in a city that made them that bitter (unless they couldn’t leave because they were in jail.)

    HH was going to move to Charleston, and be among all the white people he so desperately wants to be among. What happened to that? Charleston is still there HH. Leave your current town (wherever that is.) It’s not doing you any favors.

    Sad!

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  89. “helmethofer is clearly trolling anti-semitic and hate speech, is there a way for mods to ban?”

    Yes, trying to distract from his actual lack of knowledge about Chicago or its real estate. Ignore him.

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  90. By the way, in nearly 10 years on this blog Helmethofer/Dan has NEVER told us where he lives (not even the neighborhood) because, after all, he doesn’t live in Chicago. And now suddenly this 60+ year old man is living in K2 and going to Au Cheval, which has been in business for years?

    Lol.

    He’s playing all of you.

    This is someone who talks about Sam Zell. No millennial, or even GenX, is talking about Sam (or even knows who he is.)

    What IS interesting is that Au Cheval has really expanded its Small Cheval concept. That has been on Milwaukee for a couple of years now but they’re opening another restaurant along the river in the new building on Riverside Plaza.

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  91. “No … GenX, is talking about Sam (or even knows who he is.)”

    Um, this is a real estate blog; if you’re into RE in Chicago and don’t know Zell, that’s weird.

    And in addition to that, Zell did preside over the bankruptcy/dismantling of the Trib, during the adult life of every GenX Chicagoan. That should make Zell known to all ‘professional class’ informed GenX Chicagoans.

    Now, the things about Zell that Hof rants about are … esoteric.

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  92. We all talk about Trump, the whole nation does. The point in bringing up Sam Zell, is that he’s a peer and of the same age group as Trump. Except that Trump is obviously his superior and Trump has led one of the most interesting and successful lives on anyone in America in the last 100 years.

    Did Sam Zell have a hit TV show and become a media star? Did Sam Zell defeat the entire establishment (((media))) and Gvt.? There is no chance that Sam could have achieved these two things. Just like someone like John Oliver could never get elected or become a billionaire RE owner and builder. Nor could a manufactured politician like Obama have done all 3. Bezos couldn’t either. None of the aforementioned could have dated multiple models and beautiful women either.

    nothing esoteric in pointing out these amazing facts about Trump’s 3 major league achievements in 3 vastly different occupational spheres that most people would be lucky to achieve well in just one. But haters gonna hate….

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  93. “If Helmethofer lived in Chicago, he would know that Mott’s is the best burger.”

    what the hell is motts, never heard of it other than their apple sauce

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  94. “What IS interesting is that Au Cheval has really expanded its Small Cheval concept. That has been on Milwaukee for a couple of years now but they’re opening another restaurant along the river in the new building on Riverside Plaza.”

    also are planning on one on Wells St. in Old Town… they are gonna kill it there

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  95. “what the hell is motts”

    lmgtfy:

    http://www.mottstreetchicago.com/thrillist-names-mott-burger-1-in-chicago/

    35% owned by Discovery Communications.

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  96. yeah I could have done that it was more of a rhetorical question…

    thrillist sucks… but those ingredients do sound like they would be good

    I will go there soon and let you all know

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  97. hd blew air kisses to hh, his fellow word warrior who’s also focused on addressing endangered status of entitled white males in US: “And HH as for the issues you talk about, I don’t care to address them. I get the anti-white thing..”

    We know you do hd. It’s prolly happenin’ daily to u & others in Pk Ridge. To paraphrase hh (who’s now obsessing over guys w/a differently shaped profile “..15 1/2-necked androgynous concave-chested..” no, not gay at all huh hh?) wadda pair of fat azz loozer omega cucks!

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  98. You need help southbound, you really do. You’re a sick dude. You took me out of context, I told him I ‘get the anti-white’ thing and then I tell him to leave the US and move to a more racist country. You really need treatment for your TDS; and you’re actually kinda creeping me out.

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  99. HH would be far more interesting to read if he didn’t just parrot the 6 latest words he read at whatever homo-erotic alt-right circle jerk porno sites he frequents.

    No one here cares who is a homo or a Jew and it is never of any relevance to the conversation. If you have nothing relevant to contribute, go back to your globohomonazi echo chamber and let people here discuss Chicago real estate.

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  100. “also are planning on one on Wells St. in Old Town… they are gonna kill it there”

    Where on Wells?

    I’m kind of surprised Shake Shack or Umami hasn’t gone in there.

    Once that new hotel opens, it will be even better for the restaurants in that neighborhood. That’s good.

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  101. “Did Sam Zell have a hit TV show and become a media star?”

    Omg!!! Ha! ha! ha!

    This is the BEST ever.

    Sam Zell is a true billionaire. Why in the hell would he WANT a reality television show?

    Ba ha ha ha ha!

    Trump is a pretender. Has built only 2 buildings in his ENTIRE life. Everyone was sold the con. He has only licensed out his name and slapped it onto bottled water. That is all.

    Sam Zell has built an empire of apartment buildings (and other things.) All from scratch. Didn’t inherit from Daddy.

    Ba ha ha ha!

    This was a good laugh. Thanks HH.

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  102. “Um, this is a real estate blog; if you’re into RE in Chicago and don’t know Zell, that’s weird.”

    NO ONE under the age of 60 has EVER brought up Sam Zell on this blog.

    EVER.

    I have never done a post on Mr. Zell. I’ve never even mentioned him in a post. Why would I? It’s not like he was building condos in Chicago. So he was irrelevant.

    And if you asked everyone on this blog who Sam Zell was, I can guarantee you that 80% to 90% would have no idea. Have heard the name, have no idea that he is one of Chicago’s true billionaires. Ditto for Jorge Perez who HAS built a bunch of condos, but most are in Miami which is why I haven’t done a post on him.

    They are both the true American dreams.

    Again, only someone who is older know who Zell is (or care.)

    It’s amazing how far above Trump his peers are (when you actually look at the developer community.) Not only are they richer, but just the sheer number of developments is amazing.

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  103. “Ditto for Jorge Perez”

    Perez lives in Chicago? Has his personal office in Chicago? Why does Perez (as opposed to Related, *perhaps*) matter in Chicago?

    WTF does Perez have to do with anything about Chicago? Next you’ll say “Eli Broad” or “Ron Burkle”.

    There are, what?, 50? people who are semi-regular here? I suspect that there are at least 10 who are zero or one degree of separation from Zell (I know at least a dozen people who have worked directly with/for him over the years). You’re seriously suggesting that everyone else has never even heard of him?

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  104. Where on Wells? (small cheval)

    1345 N. Wells (currently empty lot across from cobbler square)

    https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170911/old-town/small-cheval-new-old-town-1345-n-wells-wicker-park-au-cheval-brendan-sodikoff

    I like Umami Burger, especially the secret UberEats burger… trust me… good shit

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  105. “Once that new hotel opens, it will be even better for the restaurants in that neighborhood. That’s good.”
    That Wells St hotel is delayed if it’s ever built – original developers who secured entitlements for building hotel in jv with land owner couldn’t secure financing & are believed to have lost $1 mil earnest money deposit.

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  106. I’m tired of restaurants that put weird foods on burgers or blood Marys or what not. Why does it all have to be served together in one sandwich/drink? If you want eggs and sausage, order them separately and put them on the burger/drink yourself. Ugh. I’m just tired of dining and eating and hearing everyone talk about food that I don’t care about. I’m tired of people discussing what they are eating and taking forever to decide what to order. I’m tired of couples who have to discuss together what they are going to eat. Jesus f*cking Christ, show some independence. I’m tired of people who can’t be bothered to look up a menu before they go to a restaurant and decide ahead of time. Why should I have to sit and wait as you study a menu when you could have done that at any point earlier in the day? I’m tired of people blathering about how good their meal is and trying to talk me in to tasting it. I don’t want to taste your god damned food. If I had wanted what you were eating, I would have ordered it.

    Gahhh… I’m in a bad mood today.

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  107. Jenny, what is your hurry in a restaurant? Relax lady. Order some wine and peruse the menu. What is online isn’t always the exact menu. Plus, specials. Part of the menu is called ambiance. Look around. If you feel that strongly about looking over a menu, eat alone or go to McDonalds. But I agree with you about tasting each other’s food. No, I don’t want to taste yours, and no, you can’t taste mine. And no, I’m not splitting a dessert with you either. Just eat the whole thing or don’t. But don’t bug me to split half of something you want.

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  108. You didn’t even mention paying the bill jenny, that’s by far the most annoying part of dining out with other people…

    And its why I don’t dine out with poor people, just fucking split it evenly per person and be done with it!!!

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  109. I usually ask for a separate check and f*ck any waiter who doesn’t comply. It can’t be that difficult to split checks. I will pay for my food and no one else’s. I usually like the simplest foods, like pasta and rarely drink. I’m not going to pay for your Malort and steak when I have pasta and water. If people insist on splitting the check, I just tell them that I am putting in what I owe and they can calculate around that. Going out to dim sum is the worst because I just order one thing for myself and then people want to split the bill. F*ckers, I didn’t eat $50 worth of food and I didn’t check off every last thing on the menu. I’m not paying for you to eat.

    The people who can’t calculate tips without a discussion and a calculator are the ones who drive me to madness. Just take 10% of the total and double it and you have your tip. Round up slightly and add it to the bill. End of story.

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  110. I’m a wino and I only associate with winos. Life is far too short to fool around with water drinkers. That being said, if I happen to be eating with a non drinker, I always throw in extra. This split the check evenly crap is nonsense. Just man up, figure out what your steak, Merlot and baked Alaska cost and toss it in the pile. Don’t pretend like you don’t know you ordered a ton more than everyone else.

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  111. Yeah I mean obviously split it evently to an extent, like if someone is ordering $300 bottles of wine and the most expensive thing on the menu and I have a beer and a burger I’ll say something… thankfully the people I hang with are normal (for the most part) adults with brains in their heads

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  112. “Going out to dim sum is the worst because I just order one thing for myself and then people want to split the bill. F*ckers, I didn’t eat $50 worth of food and I didn’t check off every last thing on the menu.”

    I want to go to dim sum w jenny’s friends bc $50 is a shit ton of dim sum.

    jenny, how do you stop other people from eating your personal dim sum order?

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  113. “I want to go to dim sum w jenny’s friends bc $50 is a shit ton of dim sum.
    jenny, how do you stop other people from eating your personal dim sum order?”

    We end up with a ridiculous amount of left overs. I think some of my friends check everything on their menus. It all seems to inexpensive, but when everyone checks every box, it adds up.

    I usually order vegetarian egg rolls and grab the first batch for myself when they come out.

    The dim sum experience is fun with friends and I go because I like the environment and sitting at those big round tables with a big group of friends.

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  114. You sound like such a fun date jenny. Orders water and vegetarian egg rolls. and then spends the rest of dinner bitching about the bill.

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  115. I don’t bitch about the bill. I’m just not going to pay for other people’s meals because splitting the bill straight is basically what they are asking. I can’t afford to pay other people’s bills.

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  116. There Sabrina goes again, projecting her own opinions borne of just one person’s limited experience as universal fact. Just like when she discounted the .com crisis of 2000ish. Not only have I heard of Sam Zell a past company of mine did a lot of business with one of his before I even wound up in Chicago-and I am not even close to 60.

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  117. Bill drama is the worst. Too many people don’t carry cash anymore and that adds to it. Put in what you owe, based on what you drank and ate cost, with an appropriate tip, (preferably with cash) and be done with it. Separate check requests make me want to hide under the table.

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  118. “There Sabrina goes again, projecting her own opinions borne of just one person’s limited experience as universal fact.”

    All I care about is the blog, Sid V.

    It’s been in operation for 10 years.

    In that time, the ONLY person who has EVER mentioned Sam Zell is Helmethofer. He has a weird obsession with him. No Millennial cares about Sam Zell for the purposes of this blog. Hell, no GenXer does either.

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  119. “That Wells St hotel is delayed if it’s ever built – original developers who secured entitlements for building hotel in jv with land owner couldn’t secure financing & are believed to have lost $1 mil earnest money deposit.”

    So they tore down O’Briens for nothing?

    How come there’s no press that this has been delayed? I haven’t been in that area in a while to see what’s going on.

    I still expect a hotel to go in there.

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  120. “You’re seriously suggesting that everyone else has never even heard of him?”

    Yes.

    There are hundreds of people who read this blog every day anon (tfo). Not everyone bothers to post.

    When HH goes on and on about what an amazing developer Trump is, you have to counter with Perez. He founded Related Group, which now owns the 60+ acres on the south side where Amazon may locate their second headquarters.

    They also built a dozen+ buildings in the city including 340 On the Park.

    Related has more to do with this site than Sam Zell ever has.

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  121. mention sam zell and suddenly sabrina goes off like a scorned lover!

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  122. Yeah there’s something “off” there.

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  123. And her love for Perez is strange to say the least… lol

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  124. The only place I have ever heard of Sam Zell is on the blog and I don’t feel like looking him up.

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  125. “No one here cares who is a homo or a Jew”

    Oh sure, we all deny the existence of Boystown and how the Red Line southside blacks travel up to there to prey upon them. We discuss crime in various neighborhoods all the time. It’s real.

    Rahm was just in Israel, a country that deports and has a wall and racist laws, just days after declaring Chicago a “sanctuary city”. All of this is relevant to Chicago real estate. Chicago is losing many millionaires. Reyes Holdings is going to FL and reducing its footprint in IL. Fred, you are a narrow-thinker, try seeing the big picture and connect the dots as to why IL ranks 50th in so many categories and why we have $16 billion in unpaid bills and a violent crime probably totally ignored by Obama and Rahm Emanuel, while they are swamp-dwelling millionaires now living in segregated neighborhoods comprised of only liberal whites.

    Jorge Perez is only a success in one of 3 areas that Trump mastered. Perez could never have been elected to the highest office in the World, nor has he navigated to the top of Hollywood. Perez is another Sam Zell, only one-dimensional as compared to Trump who has lived a life rarely seen in the history of this country and the world at large. Trump also used to hang around with Andy Warhol etc. Yeah, let’s see Mick Jagger become Prime Minister or build up a RE/hotel/resort company.

    Lastly, Sabrina, why would you complain about Trump’s brilliance to license his brand during the condo boom for massive profits? Should he instead have followed Corus Bank and all its (((borrowers))) into bankruptcy?

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  126. “So they tore down O’Briens for nothing?..I still expect a hotel to go in there.”

    Dunno. Mr O’Brien is extremely tough businessman so imo O’Briens wasn’t likely torn down for ‘nothing’. I’ve heard another developer’s taking a shot. I know nothing abt hotel economics but I’m guessing lenders wonder how often will a hotel paying for new construction compete well agst reopened Ambassador (rack starting @ $130/night) & Indigo, 1/4 mi E & Hotel Lincoln 1/4 mi N? How often will all city center hotel rooms sell out? Imo there’s been too many new hotel rooms built but we’ll see.

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  127. “No Millennial cares about Sam Zell for the purposes of this blog.”

    Goalposts, moved!

    Original statement:

    “only someone who is older know[s] who Zell is (or care[s].)”

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  128. That said, Zell’s companies have never been active in the Chicago market on the *residential* side. So the relevance to this site really is limited to non-existent for the normal person.

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  129. Re O’Brien’s — IIRC, Peter and his parents owned O’Brien’s restaurant along with a lot of other properties. It’s been a few years since I’ve been in his orbit, but it’s entirely possible his parents have passed on and he decided to get out of the restaurant business and sold the property.

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  130. “IIRC, Peter and his parents owned O’Brien’s restaurant along with a lot of other properties. It’s been a few years since I’ve been in his orbit, but it’s entirely possible his parents have passed on and he decided to get out of the restaurant business and sold the property.”

    More correctly iirc his parents owned controlling interest in it (plus many OT/GC apt bldgs, nursing homes & misc enterprises) until (allegedly) Peter utilized their signed power of attorney(s) to transfer their interest(s) to himself/his heirs & cut his sibs out of their expected inheritances. Dan, Sr & Mary (and later sibs & next gen) filed suit agst Peter 7 yrs ago & subsequently both died. I believe lawsuit’s settled. The hotel plan calls for O’Brien’s to reopen inside as its only restaurant so I don’t believe he’s intending to retire.

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  131. anon(tfo) “That said, Zell’s companies have never been active in the Chicago market on the *residential* side. So the relevance to this site really is limited to non-existent for the normal person.’

    FWIW some years back a Zell entity converted the 100 yr old Dr Scholl loft bldg/factory on Wells & Schiller into Cobbler Square, a vibrant mixed retail/res project which his co. still owns. Zell’s relevant to me

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  132. “Cobbler Square”

    Yeah, and Equity Resi has had a stake in a couple of developments (1401 S State???) around the metro, but that’s not really ‘active’, certainly compared to his office business.

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  133. ps: And you’re old, Southbound. So just “proving” Sabrina’s point.

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  134. “only someone who is older know[s] who Zell is (or care[s].)”

    Yes. The whole point of this stupid thread is HH saying he lives in K2 and goes to Au Cheval. When he’s over 60 and does neither (as is obvious by his constant obsession with Sam Zell and other “older” people that others who are younger wouldn’t care about or even know anything about.) Even his reference to Hillary Clinton as “that bitch” recently reveals his age.

    That is all.

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  135. “All of this is relevant to Chicago real estate. Chicago is losing many millionaires.”

    No. Your racism is not relevant to anything we discuss here. And since you don’t live here, you have no idea what is happening with Chicago’s economy. We’re actually NOT losing “many millionaires.” City has never been richer. Lots of hot startup companies hiring hundreds of people right now, even before Amazon arrives. More buildings being built than in any other American city with only Seattle temporarily beating us (depending on when a building finishes.)

    Trump hung around with Andy Warhol now? Lol. And…so???

    Since when does “hanging out” with someone make you great or worthy of praise of any kind? If it did, Justin Bieber would be the greatest human this planet has ever seen.

    The only thing Trump has done is con a bunch of helpless Americans (who are desperate economically- whom he will NEVER help) along with the help of the Russians. But all of that will come out. Mueller will rat it all out.

    The only question is, how many will go to jail from this administration?

    And Trump never had brilliance in the condo boom. He owns two buildings. Deutsche Bank bailed him out when Trump Tower Chicago was going under in the bust. Jorge Perez at least never needed a bailout. And he’s never declared bankruptcy like Trump has 4 times.

    I still wonder why the bottom floors of Trump Tower have never been rented out. The new commercial buildings along the Chicago River at Riverside Plaza were just built and already they are opening up restaurants in them. Why have these retail spaces remain vacant (and dead space) for over a decade? There are huge tourists boats docking right in front of the building with hundreds of people who would love to go to a restaurant/café just a few steps away.

    I don’t get it. Boggles the mind.

    So sad.

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  136. “mention sam zell and suddenly sabrina goes off like a scorned lover!”

    Sam Zell is, at least, a true billionaire and worked his way up from nothing. You can’t say the same about Donald Trump. He’s barely even a “developer.” He’s just a reality tv show star who sells his name. That is all.

    He was so broke when he divorced Marla Maples he had to ask the court for approval to pay her alimony.

    The con has been enormous.

    But it’s all playing out as suspected as he’s incompetent in office. Thankfully, the US economy just keeps humming along, as it had done under Obama. And the Alabama election this week also shows that the distance between the city and rural areas continues to grow as the cities grow richer.

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  137. “Trump hung around with Andy Warhol now? ”

    Missed that in the drivel.

    Funny that he cites starf*cking as a good thing. And with a 15 1/2-necked androgynous concave-chested ur-“globohomo” at that.

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  138. I’ve had a chance to read as much as I can about the new proposed tax plan. Ignore both the ouliers saying “this is a middle class tax cut” and the people like Schumer “it’s all for the rich”.

    From what I can tell, Trump’s tax plan is going to help a lot of the middle class. It doubles the standard deduction for Head of HOusehold (and simultaneously) gets removes exemptions – and the working class tax issue of claiming half a dozen exemptions. It’s going to increase the child tax credit significantly (allegedly) and provide for a $500 dependent credit. It’s going to make pass through income taxed at 25% – so basically LLC’s can now be taxed as on service S-corps with a difference between salary and profits, if I understand this correctly. Even with teh 10% rate going to 12% this will lower taxes for millions of middle class families.

    However, blue states, you’re going to get screwed, big time. The money has to come from somewhere and it’s coming from high tax blue state liberals. First of all, the 25% pass through business rate probably won’t apply to ‘service’ corporations, where the IRS considers all income ordinary income, so high income lawyers, accountants, etc, won’t get that benefit. Secondly, it removes the SALT (state and local income tax incl. real estate tax!) deductions. For middle america red states with lower taxes and lower home prices, the doubling of the standard deduction more than offsets the itemized salt and even for someone with a lower income tax state with a reasonable real estate tax, such as in my case, the doubled standard deduction vs the SALT is a wash. However, for high income earners with large mortgages in high tax blue states, it’s a real killer. The *average* NY’er takes almost $25,000 in SALT deductions and I read its even more in CA. Those big mortgages, high RE taxes and large income taxes are real killers. Blue members of congress in Red states are going to scoff at Nancy Pelosis, Schumers and Boxers claim that removing the SALT deduction is a ‘non-starer’ but the blue congress member in Iowa or MN is going to see how much this benefits his constituents, and feel no sympathy at all for the $200k earning couple in the Silicon valley or Manhattan paying through the nose for the privilege of living in the high tax states. And then if (D) blue states complain, (R) can say that all they care about is rich people who pay more than $25,000 in combined taxes, and (D) is the party of the rich. This is my take on the situation, i’m trying to be objective here, this is not just parroting other people. This all effects real estate prices because those million dollar homes in lakeview are suddenly less appealing if it can cost $5,000 to $10,000 more a year to own them (grossly estimated figures!)

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  139. HD great post

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  140. Yeah I’m definitely not approving of the removal of the SALT deduction… yay double taxation sort of?

    but yea just another reason to get the hell out of here soon as I can

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  141. I wish they would eliminate the mortgage interest deduction. I’m sure I’m the only realtor that feels that way but I hate the fact that the government subsidizes homeownership. And everyone could feel really good about sticking it to the rich (not my intent) who would be disproportionately affected by that. But I don’t think the political will exists to make that happen.

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  142. Trying to decide how much time I should spend researching the tax plan. I’m a single-member LLC, so there’s probably significant impact.

    However, this crew can’t even pass gas, let alone an overhaul of the tax system, so I might just be wasting my time.

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  143. Madeline, agree, I’m not wasting time on anything Trump is trying to do right now. It’s probably going to be another DOA anyway. But I really think the homeowner deduction should stay. I don’t think it subsidizes inasmuch as encourages homeownership. The aftermarket of home ownership really revs the economy too.

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  144. “But I don’t think the political will exists to make that happen.”

    They also want to cut cap of $1,000,000 for the homeowners deduction down to $500,000. Do middle class people have mortgage balances in the $500k?

    “However, this crew can’t even pass gas, let alone an overhaul of the tax system, so I might just be wasting my time.”

    Don’t let the failure to repeal Obamacare blind you to they things Congress is accomplishing. There’s a new supreme court justice writing opinions as we speak.

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  145. “They also want to cut cap of $1,000,000 for the homeowners deduction down to $500,000. Do middle class people have mortgage balances in the $500k?”

    Did not know that. That’s a great start.

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  146. They should eliminate the mortgage interest deduction and replace it with a principle deduction. Government should be encouraging building equity, not taking on debt.

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  147. “They should eliminate the mortgage interest deduction and replace it with a principle deduction. ”

    But that wouldn’t benefit the big banks!

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  148. “Government should be encouraging building equity, not taking on debt.”

    hah yeah, and they should lead by example too…

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  149. First of all, I didn’t know that Trump and Ivana hung around with Warhol, but I was at Mypoic Books on Milwaukee Ave. (since I don’t live here) perusing a photography book about NYC by some famous photographer (can’t recall) of the Studio 54 days. There was a friendly pic of Trump and Ivana and Warhol and the caption read that Warhol “was tying to get the couple to buy some of his art but Trump never did” LOL! Loved it. Trump has always had great instinct.

    Trump’s Sun-times building was a case of Midwest heavy-handed over management. Recall that the Sun-Times was owned by an out of state (maybe foreign) entity at that time. So, Daley and losers like (((Blair Kamin))) were whining in typical second-city fashion about having a New Yorker get the development assignment instead of a local. So recall that Daley DEMANDED that Skidmore’s Adrian Smith be the architect in charge of design. So if you have any problems whatsoever with Trump Tower (and its submerged vacant retail along the river) you can blame Smith and Skidmore.

    I was in Au Cheval recently. How else would I know that there are 6 counter seats on the front corner that are first-come first-serve? I do go to Kinzie on the Rocks with my neighbors. get a ticket to K2 is the term used for people who want to witness our pool scene.

    Sam Zell “worked his way up from nothing”? LOL! The “story” goes that Sam and Bob Lurie were law students at U Of Michigan. While they were penniless boot-strappers with student loans and living in dorms…..they miraculously “started buying apartment buildings in Ann Arbor…and amassed a tidy portfolio”! Oh sure, how many law students from Whitney Young on affirm action do you know who have the capital and can guarantee bank loans to buy up apartment buildings while law school. Save us all the fake (((bootstrap))) lies that these type like to propagandize with. It’s lies. Zell and his ilk had plenty of advantages. They just lie about it.

    So sick of the “racism” whiners. Only white cops are racist? Hands up, don’t shoot is a lie and the stupid NFL players are racists now. Luis Gutierrez and his ridiculous gerrymandered horseshoe-shaped district is racist. Rahm’s support of Israel is hypocritically racist to the Nth degree. Jesse Jackson and Farrakhan are headquartered here. The head of the racist ADL is from our city, he’s a racist. HD constantly belittles Eastern Europeans and their aesthetic tastes. Mexican-Americans were recently seen in our city celebrating Mexican independence day!

    I agree with CNN’s Van Jones. Russia is a big nothing-burger.

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  150. It looks like home owners in Illinois would get screwed, but I’m also not paying too much attention to the proposal because I doubt Trump can get anything passed.

    I’m also so sick of these child tax deductions. People with kids should pay more, since they are sucking up more resources. The whole notion of dependents except for the differently abled is ridiculous. I shouldn’t have to pay more than a family with kids when I use fewer resources.

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  151. Jenny, why not have a baby so you don’t feel so ripped off all the time? I don’t think you understand what it means to live in a society. It’s important to educate our children. If all of our children are educated, society, which you have chosen to be a part of, works better. I’m sure you use up your fair share of resources. Do you drive? Do you walk? Do you go out at night and use streetlights? Do you create garbage? Do you go to the beach? I’m sick of people whining about kids. You were one once. I assume you went to school and parks as a kid. Stop complaining.

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  152. Based on what Trump’s dumbass wants to do, I as someone who already pays ridiculous and disproportionate taxes, would get screwed over to the nth degree. It’s difficult to envision a worse president on pretty much every single front. Hopefully this is more hot air though, and will get watered down or fail altogether.

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  153. “There’s a new supreme court justice writing opinions as we speak.”

    Um, no? All of last terms opinions have been issued, and this term hasn’t commenced.

    Not to mention that it’s the clerks writing…

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  154. jenny there’s nothing wrong with having children as long as you can pay for them. in today’s society unfortunately too many people are having children out of wedlock and not getting enough child support. we have generation of children where the government paid for their birth via medicaid, wic gave them free formula, free day care via AllKids, they get schooling and special ed for free as only a tiny portion of rent goes toward covering the cost of education, and they get free breakfast and lunch all day. they turn 18 and have their own multiple children and the process repeats itself. it’s not just urban it’s rural too. nationwide 50% of all children are born on Medicaid. I can’t find the exact statistics but Chicago is probably higher and along with downstate but suburban cook is lower. it’s
    truly frightening how we have created an entire underclass that perpetuates generations that live off the dole.

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  155. “How else would I know that there are 6 counter seats on the front corner that are first-come first-serve?”

    Um, Yelp?

    https://www.yelp.com/menu/au-cheval-chicago/item/cheeseburger-a-cheval

    “get a ticket to K2 is the term used”

    No one says anything that stoopid irl. Do you also wear onions tied to your belt? Say “Give me five bees for a quarter, sonny!”?

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  156. “I’m also so sick of these child tax deductions.”

    I’m sick of paying for old people. And my kids will be, too.

    Feel free to cash out your $200,000 of social security contributions, and get by with private health insurance at unsubsidized rates as an oldster, jenny. Everyone for themselves!

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  157. “nationwide 50% of all children are born on Medicaid.”

    Nationwide, 50% of school-aged kids qualified for free/reduced lunch, too.

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  158. “I’m sick of paying for old people. And my kids will be, too. ”

    Oh I forgot, many of these medicaid children grow up and amass exactly $0 in assets, so when it comes time to go into a nursing home, we end up paying for that too!! meanwhile the rest of us have to pay for it. We may as well just call it socialism because that what it is, except those that can pay, pay dearly, and those that don’t pay, get it all for free. What in the world did people do before the government took care of us from cradle to grave???

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  159. So what’s your solution?

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  160. hd whined the R credo that poor people live the high life what with getting everything free all of the time. So who pd for your parents nursing home hd? I’d bet you made certain their assets were transferred out a few yrs earlier so they’d qualify for treatment you’re whining abt the genuinely poor qualifying to receive. Then you and your sibs had something to inherit. That’s the R way isn’t it (you didn’t mention a big goal of R’s new tax proposal is to kill fed estate tax which only kicks in after an $11 mil exemption, ignoring prev. transfers to trusts etc)? My parents nursing home required their pensions be assigned. So should poorhouses be built to warehouse indigent old people (paid for no doubt by dt’s & your well know propensity for selfless charitable contributions)? Or should they all just live on the streets of Pk Ridge?

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  161. “What in the world did people do before the government took care of us from cradle to grave???”

    They died.

    Choose Life!!

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  162. oh, another neurotic TDS rant from SB. He pushes these narratives without knowing who I am or where I come from. he’s prejudice against me and he doesn’t even know who I am! In case you’re wondering SB, my parents are still alive and on SS. They have no assets so I will inherit nothing but their funeral and cemetery bills. My younger sibling died in an unfortunate manner a few years ago and my older is on SSDI and unable to work. The one on SSDI at least worked for a while, the I in SSDI is called ‘insurance’ so you can’t really blame someone who can’t work from cashing in on their ‘insurance’. I really built my life from the ground up, other than being born smart, tall and handsome of course, so my views are opposite of those of my primarily working class and lower class family. I’ll be the one who ends up paying for and caring for my parents as they age and lose their facilities, which their mental and physical health is rapidly deteriorating.

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  163. Re hd’s previous post after he studied tax proposal “However, blue states, you’re going to get screwed, big time….” Until hd moves to the cesspool c/k/a FL (where he belongs) that’s “we’re” not “you’re” kemosabe.

    “without knowing… where I come from. He’s prejudice against me…” hd’s forgot what he’s prev. posted here & instead composed a sad tale about working his way up from ‘lower class/working class upbringing’ (in parents home in Arl Hts or Buff Grove. Who owns their home now?) It’s so hard to keep hd’s lies straight.

    hd didn’t respond to question abt dt/R proposal to eliminate estate tax b/c like Joe the Plumber he jes’ might die rich & need dt like protection agst those ‘confiscatory estate taxes’ (after $11 mil exemption). Whose taxes go up to fund that giveaway (beside first rung for low & middle income people going to 12%)? Are R’s now fans of runaway deficits? R’s are fleecing you too hd to provide ‘relief’ for likes of dt, Koch bros & Phil Anschtz. But we’ll all ‘git a ‘lil trickle down someday huh?

    Nor did hd answer how he’d recommend we handle indigent elderly sick folks. (You do acknowledge most of them look much more like you than like Obama right?) Simple questions.

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  164. “The one on SSDI at least worked for a while, the I in SSDI is called ‘insurance’ so you can’t really blame someone who can’t work from cashing in on their ‘insurance’.”

    Wow. So sorry to hear this HD. What’s his monthly check if he didn’t work that long? $500 a month? How is he surviving on it? The average SSDI check is just $1000 a month because it’s based on your work history (like Social Security.) And most on it weren’t making $100k a year before they went on it.

    It’s really, really tough to “live” on SSDI unless you’re in Alabama and you have two people in the household bringing in the SSDI.

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  165. “I’ll be the one who ends up paying for and caring for my parents as they age and lose their facilities, which their mental and physical health is rapidly deteriorating.”

    If your parents have no assets, as you say, in Illinois they can move into an assisted living facility paid for by Medicaid. (At least until the Republicans decide to cut it 25%-35%- which is what they’re trying to do.)

    But right now, its funded in Illinois and your parents can already move in HD. They have married apartments and the facilities are nice. My grandmother lived in one in Illinois for a few years. If they lose their mental capacity, then they have to go to a nursing home. But that can be covered by Medicaid too.

    Don’t be a hero. There is government help out there. If they’re over age 62, they can move into assisted living right now. The facility will take their Social Security to help pay for it. But you said that’s all they have so it’s a good deal for them.

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  166. “Oh I forgot, many of these medicaid children grow up and amass exactly $0 in assets, so when it comes time to go into a nursing home, we end up paying for that too!!”

    It’s mostly middle class who end up in assisted living and nursing homes for a long period of time paid for by Medicaid. Go to Naperville, Hinsdale, Oak Park. Assisted/Supportive living facilities are all over the place. They make you pay down your assets but it doesn’t take real long for the widow with the $350,000 house and a $1200 a month social security payment to go broke. It’s about $60,000 a year for assisted living in Illinois. About $96,000 for the top of the line nursing home care (with round the clock care, private room.) Assisted living is apartment living.

    70% of Medicaid spending is for the elderly. That percentage will only grow as the Baby Boomers age (as they’re the largest generation). Oldest Baby Boomers are just around 70 so they have yet to enter into assisted living/nursing homes en masse yet. When they do, I wouldn’t be surprised to see elder care rise to 80% or maybe even 90% of Medicaid’s costs.

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  167. “Hopefully this is more hot air though, and will get watered down or fail altogether.”

    It’s a 9 page plan. It will be hundreds of pages when they are voting on it. It will not look anything like what it is right now. But they DID need some kind of framework.

    I’m not seeing how this helps the middle class much. Why didn’t they just focus on the corporate tax cuts? Everyone wants it.

    And why throw the removal of the estate tax on top of it? Why put that in? I saw a stat that last year only 5,000 people paid tax under it. Only 80 farmers. Why put it in?

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  168. “Oh sure, how many law students from Whitney Young on affirm action do you know who have the capital and can guarantee bank loans to buy up apartment buildings while law school.”

    Zell went to Whitney Young? Was it even there in the 1950s-60s?

    Again- you KNOW how old he is. He was in law school 45 years ago. Real estate was cheap then, especially in college towns. How do you think Trump’s dad amassed all of his Queens apartment buildings? Same way. You buy one, you rent it out, you buy another, you rent it out. It’s not rocket science. There was no HGTV. No one was obsessed with real estate like they are now. And it wasn’t Americans largest asset.

    Oh- and HH (who doesn’t live in Chicago) – in Chicago, we celebrate Polish Independence Day with a BIG parade through Grant Park (streets closed down and everything.) In “our” city. Another country’s independence day. Imagine that????

    Ba ha ha ha!

    HH, if you’re going to act like you’re from Chicago, at least try and learn something about it while you’re lying.

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  169. “Do middle class people have mortgage balances in the $500k?”

    Yes. This would decimate both coasts of the United States where this is the “average” home price. Heck, KB Home just reported earnings today and said that their average home price in the quarter was $411,000.

    Of course, you could argue that easy mortgages (with as little as 3% down) as well as incentives like mortgage deduction is what is keeping home prices elevated.

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  170. “Don’t let the failure to repeal Obamacare blind you to they things Congress is accomplishing. There’s a new supreme court justice writing opinions as we speak.”

    A Supreme Court justice is an accomplishment now?

    Wow. The bar is low.

    It’s too late to do tax reform. That will take up to 2 years and takes skilled politicians to get through. In 1986, Reagan had won in 1984 in a landslide. He took his momentum from that amazing victory and combined with his own political skills and those of Tip O’Neill and was able to get the largest tax reform in history through. He also criss-crossed the United States for months to sell the public and dubious Senators on it.

    Does anyone think over the next 3 months there are those same skilled politicians in Washington? That anyone there has what it takes to get something like this through?

    They also should have had the “plan” ready to go on day one (much like Obama had the initial healthcare plan in place the minute he walked into the White House.) You really can’t piss away the first 6 to 9 months of your administration and think you’ll get anything done. Nearly everything of importance happens right when you get in.

    It’s a shame because tax reform is something everyone agrees should happen. Obama actually tried. He wanted to cut the corporate rates but no one on the Hill would deal with him. They should be able to do this in a bipartisan manner. But, alas. No one with real political skills is there.

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  171. “Do middle class people have mortgage balances in the $500k?”

    By the way, I’m sure Hawaiians aren’t too happy with this first version of the plan.

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  172. “Blue members of congress in Red states are going to scoff at Nancy Pelosis, Schumers and Boxers claim that removing the SALT deduction is a ‘non-starer’ but the blue congress member in Iowa or MN is going to see how much this benefits his constituents, and feel no sympathy at all for the $200k earning couple in the Silicon valley or Manhattan paying through the nose for the privilege of living in the high tax states.”

    High tax, high home price states of NY, California and New Jersey have 90 congressmen between them.

    I look forward to seeing the way that Ryan can pass this plan without them.

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  173. The SSDI is roughly $1,800 a month which includes the dependent income too. My sibling is at Wal-Mart the day the check is deposited and visits the food panty during week 3 or 4 of every month. It’s terrible living but the spouse doesn’t want to work for minimum wage. i’ve tried explaining the refundable child tax credits, EIC and the spouse just doesn’t care. Likes TV and food too much to work. but that’s neither here nor there.

    as for the medicaid nursing homes, that probably in the future for sure, but we aren’t quite there yet.

    SB, you’re just too much. I’m not answering your questions because I’m just ignoring much of what you say. You’ve truly gone off the deep end. You’re as nutty as HH just to the alt-left instead of the alt-right.

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  174. “The SSDI is roughly $1,800 a month which includes the dependent income too.”

    Wow. He must have had a pretty decent job then. That’s higher than most people get for Social Security after working for 30+ years. That’s the upper bracket income level of SSDI.

    Where the hell does he live if he can make that work with children? That’s poverty level even with food stamps.

    It’s no way to live.

    Why aren’t you there with your parents yet? Like I said, they can be in assisted living if over the age of 62. It’s wise, with the Baby Boomers all retiring now and aging quickly, to get them into a facility before they will really need it. There will be wait lists as there already is for low income senior apartments (the non-assisted living kind.) And if they have NO assets except social security, then there’s nothing to lose to move them into assisted living (especially if they need some assistance.)

    People always wait too long to really make arrangements for their parents. They think that assisted living is a nursing home. It’s not. It’s like a college dorm for old people where everyone has an apartment with a small kitchen but meals and some aid is provided. My grandmother really liked it. She would take the shuttle to Target all the time. She played bingo. She went to sit and be fit every morning.

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  175. “If your parents have no assets, as you say, in Illinois they can move into an assisted living facility paid for by Medicaid”

    uhhh they also have to have no income… which is ridiculous considering most social security income is more than the poverty level which would allow you to qualify for free Medicaid paid living… I’m in this situation with my inlaws, they don’t really have any assets or income for that matter, just a god awful house that needs to be burned to the ground (semi hoarders) and social security income while draining their one 50k IRA by 500 bucks a month… they have serious medical issues and need to be in a place that can take care of them, sadly they do not qualify and they don’t have enough money to afford one of these places on their own.

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  176. I’m completely in favor of Medicare and Social Security. We pay into those systems as working people and need them to be around when we are too sick to take care of ourselves or end up getting laid off in our 60s and no one will hire us.

    If you need the child tax credit so badly, you should not have kids. I know that in my financial situation, it would be completely irresponsible for me to have a child. Whether I want a child or not is irrelevant. There are plenty of people in this world who would love to come to the US and contribute to our society. We can take in some of those people instead of us lower middle class people having more kids.

    Each school aged child in a Chicago public school sucks up over $14,000 in our tax money each year. I don’t see why they have to spend so much money on each child. It would be interesting for the city to instead of paying that money for each child, each year, offer poor families a “move out” credit of $14,000 per child contingent on the custodial parent leaving and not coming back until their kids are done with school.

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  177. “We can take in some of those people instead of us lower middle class people having more kids.”

    I am so glad you are not in charge of public policy.

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  178. “Zell went to Whitney Young?”

    Right in Zell’s wiki bio, it sez he went to Highland Park HS.

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  179. “I’m completely in favor of Medicare and Social Security.”

    Of course you are. Ubi est mea?

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  180. Is it so unreasonable to expect that when I am need, that I will be helped? We’re all going to be in need at some point through no fault of our own. I don’t mind helping those in need now as long as when I’m in need I will also get help. I do mind giving irresponsible people money. People need to show a modicum of responsibility before we start shelling out money for them.

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  181. “offer poor families a “move out” credit of $14,000 per child contingent on the custodial parent leaving and not coming back until their kids are done with school.

    I like this idea… really good stuff

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  182. “Is it so unreasonable to expect that when I am need, that I will be helped? We’re all going to be in need at some point through no fault of our own. I don’t mind helping those in need now as long as when I’m in need I will also get help.”

    Our only shot at this is if people continue having children. We don’t want to end up like Japan or China with population decline and no young workforce to support the aging population.

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  183. “Our only shot at this is if people continue having children. We don’t want to end up like Japan or China with population decline and no young workforce to support the aging population.”

    I was waiting for someone to bring this up. The only reason this is a problem is because all these social security/ Medicare-like systems are Ponzi schemes. If they were fully funded by people when they were younger then this wouldn’t be a problem. In fact, it would be better for the planet if the population declined but most countries can’t afford that.

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  184. “If you need the child tax credit so badly, you should not have kids.”
    “Is it so unreasonable to expect that when I am need, that I will be helped?”

    This fairly well sums up why I can’t stand libertarians. The most selfish people on the political spectrum.

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  185. “I was waiting for someone to bring this up. The only reason this is a problem is because all these social security/ Medicare-like systems are Ponzi schemes. If they were fully funded by people when they were younger then this wouldn’t be a problem. In fact, it would be better for the planet if the population declined but most countries can’t afford that.”

    I agree. I guess our other option is fiscal responsibility. I think America as a whole stands a better chance of continuing the Ponzi scheme. :)

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  186. “Is it so unreasonable to expect that when I am need, that I will be helped?”

    subsidiarity: a principle in social organization: functions which subordinate or local organizations perform effectively belong more properly to them than to a dominant central organization

    This means charity should first start with the immdeiate family, next to the extended family, then perhaps neighbors or church members, etc. It’s bottom up, not from top down. You should have had kids if you are concerned about someone taking care of you in old age or when you get dementia.

    WHY IS IT THE GOVERNMENT’S RESPONSIBILITY to take care of you? jenny, you constantly rail on having to pay for others via your tax dollars, now you’re 180 degrees in turnaround in wanting the taxpayers to pay for you.

    “R’s are fleecing you”

    In IL it’s the Dems that fleece us, their docile sucker sheep.

    “The average SSDI check is just $1000 a month because it’s based on your work history”

    I heard from a homeless guy that lives at Passages in Palatine, that many that live in the shelter on are on disability. When the check comes in, they go to a Motel 6 and binge-party for 3 days, blow the money on drugs etc. and then go back to the shelter. They repeat this process each month. Just some anecdotal info.

    Re: Zell and Whitney Young. Yes, I know he didn’t go there. He was a privileged little pervert brat, from Highland Park, who’s claim to fame was “selling Playboys at recess for a profit as a kid”. I wasn’t precise on my typing. I was trying to explain that your comment that Zell was self-made was BS. He was from Highland Park. I was trying to contrast Jewish privilege with that of today’s minority student at Whitney Young who would enter law school and have ZERO chance of “amassing a tidy portfolio” of Ann Arbor apartment buildings by pure merit or bootstrapping.

    Re: Polish independence day. Who cares? Who’s denying that. You cannot deny that we recently had a huge Mexican Independence Day in Chicago, USA, within the last few weeks. Just sayin’ that people in Chicago have their racial/racist pride. No denying it exists. Rahm is loyal to Jews/Israel. No denying it. Not sure who the hell Madigan and Cullerton and Kennedy are loyal to though, most certainly not the white citizens. They’re weird creatures, that’s why they are Democrats.

    “all these social security/ Medicare-like systems are Ponzi schemes”

    If anyone thinks letting in waves of poorly educated, penniless, low IQ and mostly unassimilable immigrants from the non-white Third World is going to solve the pension crises, that person is a nutjob living in fantasy land. They will need more resources than they can shift up to the greedy baby-boomers.

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  187. PS Before anon(tfo) tries to fact-check everything so anally, it’s JOURNEYS | The Road Home
    1140 E Northwest Highway
    Palatine, Illinois 60074

    not Passages.

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  188. ““If you need the child tax credit so badly, you should not have kids.”
    “Is it so unreasonable to expect that when I am need, that I will be helped?”

    This fairly well sums up why I can’t stand libertarians. The most selfish people on the political spectrum.”

    Yeah, really.

    If you need medicare so badly, you should just work til you die. What good do smelly old people do for society, anyway, amirite??

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  189. Medicare and social security are programs that we all pay into and will most likely all get. I’m fine with that. I do think people should work for longer. The idea of retiring when you’re still able to work is ridiculous to me, especially when you work for the government and have a job for life. There are lots of people who get laid off in their 60s though and have a very difficult time finding another job. No one wants to hire them, so they are forced to leave the work force.

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  190. “Medicare and social security are programs that we all pay into and will most likely all get. I’m fine with that.”

    Yes, socialism is good when it provides you benefits, and bad when it provides other people benefits that you don’t use.

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  191. “Yes, socialism is good when it provides you benefits, and bad when it provides other people benefits that you don’t use.”

    I believe that Jenny’s point is that social security and medicare are not like socialism but more like retirement plans and insurance in tht everyone contributes. All the other social programs are funded by 53% of the tax filers and primarily go to the other 47%.

    Just trying to clarify here, though Jenny probably doesn’t need my help.

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  192. “I believe that Jenny’s point is that social security and medicare are not like socialism but more like retirement plans and insurance in tht everyone contributes.”

    I highly doubt Jenny would support single-payer heatlhcare in the form of medicare for all.

    Like anon (tfo) said; its only an entitlement program if **I** would never use it.

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  193. As a spoiled American, the single payer healthcare system scares me. I think Medicaid is necessary though and hope that I am never so destitute that I need it. There are lots of horror stories about people losing their jobs due to illness and then losing their health insurance (ACA plans seem to be total garbage). In general, I think we need safety nets for people who have fallen on hard times or have become disabled.

    I’m not annoyed with government programs for the poor so much as I am with the government paying their employees much more than private sector employees are paid and then giving those employees huge pensions, that no one else gets. I’m annoyed with the amount of money spent on schools. I don’t think I should have to pay for the children of middle class parents to go to school. I’m fine paying for the poor students and having special programs so that they might actually succeed one day. There is also enormous waste in the public school system. They need to cut the waste before they bitch about not having enough money. Why not cut out senior year of high school and gym? Both are complete wastes of time/money.

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  194. I do think people should work for longer.

    You are myopically assuming that everyone works an office job like you do. There are many, many jobs that become difficult to do in your 50s, let alone in your 60s and 70s.

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  195. “Fred on September 29th, 2017 at 1:27 pm

    “If you need the child tax credit so badly, you should not have kids.”
    “Is it so unreasonable to expect that when I am need, that I will be helped?”

    This fairly well sums up why I can’t stand libertarians. The most selfish people on the political spectrum.”

    Selfish as in letting you do whatever you want, just as long as I don’t have to pay for it?

    Wouldn’t it be MORE selfish to expect me to pay for your healthcare?

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  196. “Yes, socialism is good when it provides you benefits, and bad when it provides other people benefits that you don’t use.”

    The problem with socialism in this country I think, at least in my opinion, is that there are so many poor and working class people, so that the only price they can afford for anything is ‘free’. And we basically have socialism for poor people today anyways. As I described above, poor people are born on medicaid, get free food at school, healthcare, often housing and cash assistance, education, child care and so forth, until they become baby mommas and baby daddies themselves, and then repeat the entire process. The irony is that one would think that getting all that free stuff would give someone a leg up in life, but instead, it creates an entitlement culture, where they just expect these things for free, and then live off the dole their entire life. It’s created a literally permanent underclass of people with limited to no social mobility. And quite frankly, that’s exactly the way some politicians like it. Reliable (D) voters for the machine; and a perpetual boggieman of (R) who will take away their free abortions, free food and free housing and free medical care…things that you and I pay for out of our pocket.

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  197. And the irony is that in IL Medicaid has a rule where a recipient can’t have more than IIRC $2,000 or $4,000 in their bank account at anytime. if they have more, they are ineligible for aid. They have to spend it down before they qualify. they literally call it a ‘spend down’ until you are eligible for free shit.

    I see the intent of not giving free shit to people with assets, but, it’s created the perverse incentive where anyone on the dole is literally prohibited from saving or accumulating assets, or doing something with their life. Because the moment they get a few thousand dollars, they are suddenly kicked off medicaid, stop the cash aid, lose their section 8 housing, lose the WIC, AllKids childcare, lose and possibly have to repay the cash assistance and free breakfast/lunch at CPS. It creates a literally permanent underclass of people who get pissed off when their benefits get taken away if they get a higher paying job or accumulate assets. No wonder 53% of people pay taxes to fund the other 47%.

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  198. “Wouldn’t it be MORE selfish to expect me to pay for your healthcare?”

    That’s how health insurance works!

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  199. “They have to spend it down before they qualify. they literally call it a ‘spend down’ until you are eligible for free shit.”

    There is another parallel problem that happens on the income side and they were talking about this on NPR the other day. If your income is just above the threshold for Medicaid you end up paying taxes and paying for your own health insurance. Your taxes end up supporting people on Medicaid and they end up having better insurance coverage than you do.

    As a result of this people not on Medicaid but at risk of losing their coverage and/ or their savings feel that healthcare is a privilege and not a right.

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  200. “There are many, many jobs that become difficult to do in your 50s, let alone in your 60s and 70s.”

    I know this for a fact. If you look at some of the jobs out there like moving or roofing (where you put shingles on a pitched roof) or shipping and receiving or carpentry or farm work…there is no way most people can do that in their 50s. Yet I amazingly see some guys in their 50s doing it and I don’t understand how. And you know that they’re going to wake up any day and realize they can’t do it any more.

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  201. “If anyone thinks letting in waves of poorly educated, penniless, low IQ and mostly unassimilable immigrants from the non-white Third World is going to solve the pension crises, that person is a nutjob living in fantasy land. They will need more resources than they can shift up to the greedy baby-boomers.”

    http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/billion-dollar-startup-founders-immigrants-study-nfap/

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  202. “As a result of this people not on Medicaid but at risk of losing their coverage and/ or their savings feel that healthcare is a privilege and not a right.”

    This is really depressing and I can see how it happens. If you end up with a horrible disease, that prevents you from working, you end up needing give up your life’s savings, including home, to get treatment. It seems unfair that some people who never worked or bothered to try, get everything and those that worked and contributed, get nothing.

    I know someone who has been unemployed for almost two years. He goes on interviews and even went back to school and got extra certifications in his field. He is extremely introverted and interviews poorly. I could easily seem him becoming destitute and losing everything he’s worked for during his adult life, while others who have never worked, are taken care of their entire lives by the government. It makes me angry. I suppose there is unemployment insurance, but that’s only $449 a week. How is anyone supposed to live on that? There are few, if any programs, to help people like my friend. The few that do exist are all geared towards women with kids.

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  203. Illinois has a estimator to see if you qualify for SNAP benefits. A single person with $1500 in housing expenses and no assets, receiving unemployment does not qualify for food stamps. A family of 4 with those same qualifications gets $313 a month in food stamps. Basically, the government is rewarding households that have lots of kids and punishing those who are single and try to live within their means.

    http://fscalc.dhs.illinois.gov/FSCalc/calculateFS.do

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  204. “I know someone who has been unemployed for almost two years. He goes on interviews and even went back to school and got extra certifications in his field. He is extremely introverted and interviews poorly.”

    The labor market is horribly screwed up. I could go on and on. Before starting my brokerage I spent decades in the corporate world, many as a hiring manager, and witnessed how poorly companies make hiring decisions. You get penalized for being old or being out of work or not having “people skills”. My wife was out of the work force for 16 years and I’m sure most companies would not have hired her. She got into her current field because she knew someone. Her “clients” rave about her. My sister works in tech and they are desperate to hire people but she’s brought them several highly qualified candidates that she can personally vouch for and they’ve rejected all of them for one of the reasons above. If the government really wanted to address the labor market they would focus on issues like this but not with mandates but with research and education.

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  205. They hiring process has definitely changed since I was last in the job market. Companies interview what appears to be an excessive number of people and have round after round of interviews. I thought it would be somewhat easy to get a job because I have been getting a lot of interviews, but these places interview somewhere between 7 and 10 other people for each role. I’m also finding that they want me to do work for them to prove that I can do the work. I’m fine when they ask for me to show them examples of previous work, but it rubs me the wrong way when I’m asked to give a presentation and then provide the deck on one of the things they are looking for the new person to do.

    The job search is very baffling to me. I can’t figure out what they want me to say. I’ve done mock interviews and am told that I do well. For the life of me, I can’t figure out what the interviewers want other than perhaps someone else had more “chemistry” with the hiring managers than me.

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  206. Doing some of the work actually sounds like a step in the positive direction. At least they’d be making the decision on the basis of what you can DO instead of how you look or how you come across or how you dress or how good of a story you can tell. I wish people could hire realtors that way :)

    Yesterday’s Science Friday on NPR was talking about how they are now using AI to sift through resumes and the machines are making decisions on the basis of your address, the font you use, how your resume is formatted…just for examples. I know some companies look at credit scores also. So in the aggregate these criteria might give companies an edge and they might be right 80% of the time but that doesn’t do you any good if you fall in the 20% where it’s wrong.

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  207. My friend works as a lobbyist for the grocery market. Jewel, Safeway, Whole Foods, Pete’s market, piggly wiggly, ralphs, meijer, and he totally lobby’s the government, on behalf of the grocery association, to keep the food stamps/link cards in full population. Then the stores are making more money, employing more people, etc. and the food makers, like Kellogg’s, General Mills I’m sure are in on it too. Sorry Jenny, EBT is here to stay. Better keep doing the mock interviews so you can get a job because we need people like you to kick in your fair share to feed children.

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  208. Looks like jenny is getting her wish: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-elderly-workers-20170929-story.html

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  209. “It seems unfair that some people who never worked or bothered to try, get everything”

    Who’s this?

    Please tell me about how someone is getting government benefits if they have “never” worked?

    And even if they have worked some and are now choosing not to, the benefits are limited unless you go on SSDI like HD’s brother. And then SSDI is based on your income. The average monthly check nationwide is about $1000 a month. I don’t think most people are living their best life on $1000 a month. Most likely also have to be on SNAP. But if you want to live on that, you are free to do so. The number of people on SSDI has skyrocketed since they started allowing mental disabilities.

    $1000 a month isn’t the life I would ever want to lead. To each their own.

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  210. “I know someone who has been unemployed for almost two years. He goes on interviews and even went back to school and got extra certifications in his field. He is extremely introverted and interviews poorly.”

    I’m sorry to hear this. It really sucks. I was once unemployed for 18 months so I can relate.

    What’s he living off of right now? Unemployment insurance only lasts about 6 months.

    If I could go back in time, I would have taken a job in another area just to have some money coming in, meet people and be out in the world. Even if it was retail or fast food and I was over employed. That would be my advice to your friend. Tons of service side places are hiring.

    Also, tell him to look at Taskrabbit, Postmate and the like if he has any skills or a car. I have friends who have done odd jobs through there while they’re unemployed.

    If he has a college degree and no kids and is willing to travel, there are always countries looking for English instructors. Again, it doesn’t have to be for forever. He could do it for a year or two to get his feet back on the ground and his confidence back.

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  211. “I suppose there is unemployment insurance, but that’s only $449 a week. How is anyone supposed to live on that?”

    They’re not. It’s an emergency back-up only. It’s just supposed to get you by until you find a job. They don’t want you to get comfortable on it.

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  212. “I know this for a fact. If you look at some of the jobs out there like moving or roofing (where you put shingles on a pitched roof) or shipping and receiving or carpentry or farm work…there is no way most people can do that in their 50s. Yet I amazingly see some guys in their 50s doing it and I don’t understand how. And you know that they’re going to wake up any day and realize they can’t do it any more.”

    Yes Gary, this happens a lot. Also in job types you might not think. Are you working an 8 hour shift at the poultry plant where you have to stand all day when you’re 60? Not likely.

    My uncle was a house painter for most of his life. No benefits. Mostly worked for himself. In his late 50s he was lucky to get a job as a janitor in one of the suburban school districts. It still had a pension. After 12 years, he recently retired WITH a pension. It’s not huge because he didn’t put 25+ years in there, but it’s better than nothing.

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  213. “And the irony is that in IL Medicaid has a rule where a recipient can’t have more than IIRC $2,000 or $4,000 in their bank account at anytime. if they have more, they are ineligible for aid. They have to spend it down before they qualify. they literally call it a ‘spend down’ until you are eligible for free shit.”

    Of course! Do you think they’ll pay for your parents $60,000 a year supportive living if you have the assets to do so yourself?

    Why doesn’t this concept make any sense to conservatives? I don’t get it. If you have the money, you BUY a car. No one gives it to you. Same with nursing home care. People always act like they should be able to live in the nursing home and STILL give their children the family inheritance of their house etc. They always say, “they worked their whole lives and now will have nothing.” Um…yeah. If you live to be 90+, you will most likely die broke (if you’re the middle class.) The care just becomes too expensive for all but a few.

    So many people think they’ll just age at home. But once you can’t drive, can’t go up those steps or can’t even make your dinner, it gets difficult. And that’s IF you keep your mind.

    My grandma spent 6 years “spending down” her money. She was middle class. House was worth $240,000. Had no debts. Had some cash/investments. She will leave no money behind when she dies. But Medicaid is now paying for her housing/care.

    There’s always the option, HD, for YOU to pay the $60,000- $100,000 a year. Then your parents can keep their assets.

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  214. “Because the moment they get a few thousand dollars, they are suddenly kicked off medicaid, stop the cash aid, lose their section 8 housing, lose the WIC, AllKids childcare, lose and possibly have to repay the cash assistance and free breakfast/lunch at CPS. It creates a literally permanent underclass of people who get pissed off when their benefits get taken away if they get a higher paying job or accumulate assets.”

    Lyndon Johnson’s war on poverty actually funded a study, begun during his administration in the 1960s, to study this very thing HD. They’ve been collecting data from the same set of families (and now their kids and grandkids) since that time. It measured income, assets, jobs etc. Was trying to get a gauge on social mobility.

    Unfortunately, they were finding, that those who were the poorest in society, mostly stayed the poorest. There was very little social mobility among generations. That’s an American myth (that anyone can rise higher.) We have lower social mobility than many European countries.

    Prior to welfare reform in 1996, there was real incentive to NOT get that minimum wage job. There’s less of that now. You can still be working and still qualify for SNAP, free CPS breakfast etc.

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  215. “The irony is that one would think that getting all that free stuff would give someone a leg up in life, but instead, it creates an entitlement culture, where they just expect these things for free, and then live off the dole their entire life.”

    Actually, the reason the cycle of poverty continues is because there are few examples in the home of anyone working. That poorest county in America that is in Kentucky? It also has among the highest rate of SSDI recipients. And if you grow up in a family where mom and dad are on SSDI and never went to “work” then that is what you know.

    If you grow up in a family where mom and dad are corporate lawyers and work 100 hours a week, then that is also what you know.

    No social mobility starts in the home. It’s incredible difficult for a child to break out of that cycle unless there is a caring teacher, minister etc. to be a role model/other voice.

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  216. “No social mobility starts in the home. It’s incredible difficult for a child to break out of that cycle”

    Funny how you never hear politicians talking about this.

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  217. “Reliable (D) voters for the machine; and a perpetual boggieman of (R) who will take away their free abortions, free food and free housing and free medical care…things that you and I pay for out of our pocket.”

    Yes HD. This is why Rand Paul cannot vote to repeal Obamacare (too many in his state are now on it.) Also why he will NEVER bring up legislation to reform SSDI. There are several counties in Kentucky which have the highest percentage of SSDI recipients in the nation.

    Actually, the largest number of people on SSDI are in red counties. Many poor, rural Americans are using it as a replacement for a job that doesn’t exist where they live. Since the job market sucks, they simply go on SSDI instead.

    This is why the Republicans NEVER bring up any ideas to reform the SSDI entitlement. They never even mention SSDI. Because they can’t.

    The entitlement discussion isn’t so D and R cut and dried as you think. Vast majority of the entitlements don’t go to cities. They go to rural counties.

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  218. “Why not cut out senior year of high school and gym?”

    Illinois is one of only a few states that actually requires gym through high school. Whenever I mention taking gym in high school to friends in California, they looked at me like I was crazy.

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  219. “In IL it’s the Dems that fleece us, their docile sucker sheep.”

    Remember, just your daily reminder that HH does NOT live in Chicago (or Illinois.)

    No one who has this much hatred for a place, lives there.

    And he also shows little understanding of the city or its people.

    Sad.

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  220. “Our only shot at this is if people continue having children. We don’t want to end up like Japan or China with population decline and no young workforce to support the aging population.”

    Isn’t it under 2 kids now in the US? I know we’re not as low as Japan, whose Millennials have simply decided they don’t want kids. It’s crushing their economy.

    Our greatest strength has always been immigration and will continue to be. We need immigration to maintain our competitive edge. Look at China and its old age problem. They are going to have a real hard time getting any growth in just a decade or two.

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  221. “uhhh they also have to have no income… which is ridiculous considering most social security income is more than the poverty level which would allow you to qualify for free Medicaid paid living…”

    Sorry for your dilemma Sonies. Sucks having aging parents, doesn’t it?

    Yes, it’s for those that are the poorest. It’s mostly women (as their pay never equaled men’s in that generation so their SS checks are much lower.)

    For married couples, the income limit is around $16,000 combined. Average check is usually over $1,000 but not always because women’s checks are smaller for that generation.

    Also, there’s this:

    “For individuals whose income or assets exceed the limits, there are two options that can help them qualify for Medicaid. Illinois offers Medically Needy Medicaid, which is for persons with very high medical expenses. This program looks at both their medical expenses and their income. If it is determined they cannot afford their care requirements, then they will qualify for some Medicaid assistance.”

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  222. “Funny how you never hear politicians talking about this.”

    Because then you would have to admit that the American dream is a myth. You don’t go from nothing to something in one generation. You barely even move up, say, from poor to working class. There are many advantages built into the system now for the upper middle class and the rich.

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  223. It also doesn’t fit the narrative that politicians are going to solve the problem if only you will vote for them.

    “There are many advantages built into the system” I don’t know what that means. What advantages? What system? How are they “built into”? Makes it sound like a conspiracy.

    “They are going to have a real hard time getting any growth in just a decade or two.” Why does everyone focus on GDP? I would think GDP per capita is more important. I’d be fine with a shrinking economy if the population was shrinking faster than the economy.

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  224. “Unfortunately, they were finding, that those who were the poorest in society, mostly stayed the poorest. There was very little social mobility among generations. That’s an American myth (that anyone can rise higher.) We have lower social mobility than many European countries.”

    and don’t you think our piss poor legislation and tax code has something to do with that?

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  225. “Why does everyone focus on GDP? I would think GDP per capita is more important. I’d be fine with a shrinking economy if the population was shrinking faster than the economy.”

    because borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars each year to bomb brown people halfway across the globe, isn’t as easy to do in a deflationary environment… we need positive GDP growth to keep the ponzi scheme going

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  226. “Do you think they’ll pay for your parents $60,000 a year supportive living if you have the assets to do so yourself?”

    Aren’t that “you” and “yourself” supposed to be “they” and “themselves”?

    Pretty sure that Medicaid doesn’t require that the adult children of the seniors go zero asset, too.

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  227. “because borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars each year to bomb brown people halfway across the globe”

    But the mooslamms want to kill you and rape you woomanns, Sonies. They are an existential threat to the West!!

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  228. “My grandma spent 6 years “spending down” her money. She was middle class. House was worth $240,000. Had no debts. Had some cash/investments. She will leave no money behind when she dies. But Medicaid is now paying for her housing/care.”

    The unfair part is that she’s being punished for being responsible. She could have sold her house and funded amazing trips with that money. At the very least, she could have done a reverse mortgage and had some fun money each month. Instead, she has to use that money to pay for a nursing home, when the guy who was irresponsible and spent his money gets to go to the nursing home for free. The smart thing to do and what my grandpa did was slowly give away his money as he was nearing the point where he was becoming disabled. He was just a middle class person who had saved his entire life and his lawyer advised giving the money away instead of putting it towards a nursing home. Luckily, he didn’t need a nursing home beyond the time that Medicare pays for one, but he had spent a few years giving his money away prior to that point, so he wouldn’t have had to “spend down” much before getting Medicaid.

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  229. “Because then you would have to admit that the American dream is a myth. You don’t go from nothing to something in one generation. You barely even move up, say, from poor to working class. There are many advantages built into the system now for the upper middle class and the rich.”

    Sorry, but this is a load of bunk… How do you define American dream? The American dream isn’t a myth. There are plenty of first and second generation immigrants and poor people who have “made it” by any measure.

    Not everyone is going to be a multi-millionaire or billionaire, but plenty of people go from being born broke to solidly middle and upper middle class. That alone is the American dream for most well adjusted people. A house. Decent job. Kids.

    Only thing keeping people poor is the social and cultural dysfunction. The problem nowadays is that poverty is so concentrated that too many people are being raised to think is normal to have a kid a 17 or 18 and neck tattoos.

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  230. “There are plenty of first and second generation immigrants and poor people who have “made it” by any measure.”

    Well, there is always a cohort that one can point to for anything like this.

    I think the bigger change is that there is now a higher percentage of 2d/3d generation UMC which squeezes out some of the opportunity to move multiple income deciles above one’s parents.

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  231. ps: Meant to add:

    –that’s relevant bc most of the stats on the ‘death of the american dream’ rely on moving among deciles or quintiles–which isn’t *necessarily* the most critical thing. Moving from the bottom of the third quintile (~$42,500 in 2015), in a family of 8, with seasonal employment, to the top of the third quintile (~72k in 2015), with a family of 4, with steady jobs, can just as well be the “American Dream” and it shows up in the stats as “not getting ahead”.
    Anyway, I’m a single generation mover from the bottom/2d quintile to the top quintile.

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  232. The question to me is how many people in the bottom quintile tried to move up and failed? If people are trying and not getting then it’s problematic. If people aren’t trying, then I see it as just part of society. It’s highly unlikely that someone is going to end up poor if that person finishes college and waits until his/her 30s to start having kids.

    I have many anecdotal stories of people moving from the bottom to the middle class. Also, of the immigrants I know, I would consider all of them to be “living the American dream,” with stable jobs and nice homes. Immigrants are self selecting and despite what Trump says, I think we get a lot of extremely intelligent, hard working people who come to this country.

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  233. One of the major issues with income mobility these days is that people tend to marry based on education and income levels these days, rather than religion or ethnicity. The lawyer used to marry his secretary and the doctor his nurse. These days the secretary is the mistress to the lawyer but his wife is another lawyer; and two surgeons will marry bypassing the nurse wife alltogether. Dual high incomes make the middle upper class that more difficult to reach when the chances of marrying up have disappeared too.

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  234. Legal secretaries and nurses are both well paying jobs in Chicago. They aren’t wealthy in the same way as doctors and BigLaw lawyers, but both jobs pay what most people would consider to be middle class wages (around $75,000 to $100,000). Back in the day, women weren’t lawyers or doctors, so men didn’t really even have the option of marrying another doctor/lawyer.

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  235. “Moving from the bottom of the third quintile (~$42,500 in 2015), in a family of 8, with seasonal employment, to the top of the third quintile (~72k in 2015), with a family of 4, with steady jobs, can just as well be the “American Dream” and it shows up in the stats as “not getting ahead”.”

    If you look at the data that has been collected for, now, nearly 50 years on this group of about 1000 poor people from every state in the country, and now on their children and grandchildren, it was very, very few that had moved anywhere from where their ancestor had started. I never saw the exact percentage, as I’ve only seen other data from the survey, but it was under 5%.

    These were people making the bottom income, who were on welfare/food stamps and living in public housing. They lived in poor neighborhoods with the worst schools.

    Really, all you have to do is go look at the poor in Appalachia. It has been like that for 100 years. It’s generation after generation. And now that most of the wealth, and jobs, are moving to the cities, it’s become even worse for the rural poor.

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  236. “There are plenty of first and second generation immigrants and poor people who have “made it” by any measure.”

    We’re not discussing “immigrants” (as many of those who came in the 1960s and 1970s were doctors and scientists. They were NEVER poor.) Immigrants ARE self selecting, as Jenny said. Many have college degrees. It’s only the illegals who fly in and drive in who may not have as much money but at least they have ambition.

    The survey the war on poverty has traced isn’t following immigrants. It’s following those poor Americans who were already here. The data is pretty telling, unfortunately. Those people who were on public assistance in the 1960s, now have children on public assistance, and grandchildren on public assistance because they live in the same poor neighborhood with limited opportunities and bad schools.

    I’m not saying NO ONE has gotten out and moved up. There’s a small group that has. But it’s really, really small. It’s actually kind of shocking, really, when you look at the data. Because it interviews the same people year after year.

    The data basically says the “anyone can get rich” American dream is a lie.

    And, actually Russ, the “having 17 kids” is pretty much restricted to not-so-poor families like the Duggars. In the survey, the families weren’t that large. And that was true through the generations.

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  237. “Luckily, he didn’t need a nursing home beyond the time that Medicare pays for one, but he had spent a few years giving his money away prior to that point, so he wouldn’t have had to “spend down” much before getting Medicaid.”

    Jenny, the government watches what you “give away.” Perhaps you know years in advance that you may have to go into a nursing home. But not many people really know that far in advance. I don’t remember how far back they look at your records (including all bank and investment statements, tax returns etc.) but I think it’s five years.

    So sure- you MAY know 7 years out and start giving it away. But you’re limited to what you can give tax free so it would take awhile to “spend down” a $500,000 estate. Hard to do that in just a few years without paying gift taxes as you gave it away.

    I don’t think most people can know that far in advance. The best thing you can do to avoid all of it is to buy long term care insurance. But most of the people I know with that have never used it (which is why they call it “insurance.”) Nursing homes are really for those who have no history of cancer in their families because they’re the ones who live long enough to need it.

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  238. “and don’t you think our piss poor legislation and tax code has something to do with that?”

    Our wealth is much more concentrated at the top than Europe’s, isn’t it?

    Some academics have said that the middle class explosion after WWII was an anomaly that we will never see again. I hope that’s not true. The growth of the world’s middle class is what has brought about stability. Just look at what is happening now as the cities have become far wealthier than the rural areas. We got Brexit and now Trump. And there’s even a division among cities. The big cities have also grown in wealth faster than the smaller cities.

    Can someone living in Seattle or San Francisco relate to someone living in Minneapolis or Birmingham? The wealth differential is SO great between those 4 cities.

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  239. There is a 3-5 year look back, but just take care of the parent finances now. I’ve taken care of my mothers finances about 5 years ago. They eventually will get sick, why wait?

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  240. “But most of the people I know with that have never used it (which is why they call it “insurance.”)”

    My mother bought it and it paid off in spades. She was bedridden for like 5 years and it paid $3600/ month. I’ve got it and it’s good for like $5000/ month for 5 years. Trust me you don’t want to be in a public nursing home.

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  241. Seattle vs Minneapolis? Not at all similar? You must be joking, those two places are actually quite similar in many ways, and average income in Seattle is around 80Kish and Minneapolis it’s low 70s. Given how expensive Seattle has gotten I’d bet the Minneapolis citizen lives slightly better than the Seattle dweller despite that. Sure Seattle may have a few tech billionaires but how is that relevant in any substantive way to the average person?

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  242. “Jenny, the government watches what you “give away.” Perhaps you know years in advance that you may have to go into a nursing home. But not many people really know that far in advance. I don’t remember how far back they look at your records (including all bank and investment statements, tax returns etc.) but I think it’s five years.”

    I think the look back is 3 years. You also have to trust your relatives that they aren’t going to screw you if you end up needing the money. If you give away small enough amounts (under $12,000 per person), it flies under the radar usually because the person giving away the money doesn’t have to report it on his/her taxes.

    There’s also the idea of spending the money on fun things. If you take some lavish vacations, I don’t see how the government can recoup that money for a nursing home.

    It really begs the question of why people like your grandma have to pay for their nursing homes, while people who game the system don’t have to pay for their nursing home.

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  243. So how does that work if they spend down their savings, but still live in a house that has some equity? They need to sell the house and take that equity and rent for a while until they are totally broke or what? Also how long does it take to get in a nursing home, do you have to apply months in advance?

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  244. “So how does that work if they spend down their savings, but still live in a house that has some equity? They need to sell the house and take that equity and rent for a while until they are totally broke or what? Also how long does it take to get in a nursing home, do you have to apply months in advance?”

    I think the government puts a lien on the house if I recall correctly. This was my grandpa’s biggest issue. He spent down his savings, but the government would have put a lien on the house if he had needed the nursing home for longer than whatever number of days Medicare paid. Looking back once he hit 90, he should have taken a reverse mortgage and had extra fun money each month. Maybe it’s because I don’t have kids, but I think that old people should have fun with their money instead of worrying about their families getting their money after they die.

    My grandpa fell and needed rehabilitation. He was sent from the hospital to a rehabilitation facility/nursing home. The goal was for him to regain his strength, but he had issues that prevented him from doing the rehabilitation. The whole thing was really depressing. If I recall correctly, Medicare/private pay patients had nicer rooms on a different floor than the Medicaid patients. I didn’t see the Medicaid floor, but the Medicare floor was depressing to me too. My grandpa hated it.

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  245. “It has been like that for 100 years.”

    So, you’re telling us that that hasn’t changed.

    After arguing that it has changed.

    Which is it?

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  246. “the “anyone can get rich” American dream is a lie.”

    Uh, yeah. Unless it’s “anyone can buy a powerball ticket” *that* interpretation of the “American Dream” has always been false.

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  247. “Seattle vs Minneapolis? Not at all similar? You must be joking”

    Just had to repost that.

    Hey, check out the ranking of US metros by median household income (I’ll wait):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_metropolitan_statistical_areas_in_the_United_States

    Yes, I can see how it would be hard for Seattleites and Minnepolitans to relate, given that Seattle IS “POORER” THAN BLOOMINGTON/NORMAL!!!

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  248. Sabrina, you need to define the American dream and success.

    Is a guy who grew up in a trailer park but manages to gain some skills and becomes a plumber making $100k living the American dream or is he only living the American dream if he becomes a multi-millionaire? I posit the American dream is the plumber guy for most people.

    In addition, I don’t know how this is born out in stats, but some kids will never reach their parent’s success. It isn’t because of failure or some systematic oppression. If the parents are really successful, the kids may just not be able to replicate it. For example, if your dad is an big shot corporate exec, the odds of the kids reaching the same career level is fairly low. What if kid wants to be a teacher? Does that now mean the kid isn’t a success because parents were a BigLaw partner?

    The reason there is so much generational poverty is because government and society have normalized cultural dysfunction. It is very difficult to break out of that cycle of poverty because the way out is often diametrically opposed to the cultural norms.

    There is virtually zero chance of remaining poor if one 1) completes high school 2) doesn’t have children out of wedlock/gets married after 21 and 3) works full time (any job, no matter how menial).

    When you look at any generational poverty or areas where poverty is high, you will find that at least one or two of those three thing above are violated on a regular basis. Number 2 is probably the biggest and most damaging.

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  249. “the American dream is the plumber guy for most people.”

    Of course it is.

    The two biggest things (imo) are (1) upward mobility for the “lower classes” and (2) the ability to own a house or a business or something. But the upward mobility was always premised on having a fair shot if one worked hard, played fair and had some ability, and *never* was about the children of doctors and lawyers becoming CEOs.

    “Number 2 is probably the biggest and most damaging.”

    Well, yeah, bc it messes up 1 and 3.

    Huge overlap between counties with high teen birthrate and high poverty. Map of counties by teen birthrate here:

    https://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/about/alt-text/map-county-text.htm

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  250. Some random thoughts & quotes in response to American dream posts & news dt will soon issue exec orders re welfare: an econ prof @ Northwestern recently wrote NYT article re establishing public option for health insurance to jolt private insurers into getting competitive. To support her theory she references action taken by Indian gov’t re workfare program:

    “..For the last decade, the Indian government has been running a workfare program in villages throughout the country. The program offers people welfare payments in exchange for work on infrastructure projects, like digging irrigation ditches. Every household in rural India is entitled to 100 days of this publicly paid work a year. For many families, the extra earnings are a lifeline, though these public works jobs are a small part of the total employment in most villages.

    One of the program’s most striking effects has been indirect, maybe even inadvertent: It has led private employers to increase the wages they offer workers. Workfare is often thought of as welfare with strings attached. But you can also think of it as the government getting into the rural employment game, hiring tens of millions of people each year. The Indian government has essentially offered a “public option” for employment.

    The program has paid a daily wage that was often higher than what local employers had offered. As a result, private-sector employers needed to make their jobs more attractive to retain workers…

    …the program caused local wages to increase 4 percent to 5 percent when it was active. In Indian states that carried out the program most effectively, the increase in the private-sector wage was even bigger.

    That higher wage applied to a vast amount of private employment, so it has added up to a lot: For each $1 the government paid out in wages, workers earned an additional 50 cents to $4.50 from higher wages in private sector jobs. The Indian government, in effect, created a matching program: For each $1 it paid out, the private sector kicked in 50 cents to $4.50 more. …. It suggests that even if the United States were to provide health insurance in an inefficient way, the indirect benefits to consumers could be substantial…”

    I liked an idea dt once espoused abt using public infrastructure projects to stimulate US economy but instead he’s focused on lowering his & other 1%’rs huuugely unfair tax burdens while mischaracterizing it as middle class tax relief. The Indian example makes some sense to me as a potential framework to get our unemployed some work experience on infrastructure projects at relatively low cost to the rest of us.

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  251. Gee, sounds like an old idea called the WPA, from which we still enjoy the benefits today.

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  252. A great article on social mobility, and how not being in the upper-middle class puts your kids and family life at risk. Riveting.

    https://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/29/social-liberalism-as-class-warfare/

    It sums up that since the Sixties’ moral and sexual revolution that was pushed on America by the Jews and their liberal white suckers, it’s been the upper classes that have avoided the social and moral ills that the Jews pushed (abortion, feminism, unilateral divorce, porn, drug liberalization, contempt of religion, etc.). The upper classes are voters for all kinds of degeneracy for the nation, but they hypocritically live personally quite conservative and so is the culture and peer group that they raise their own kids in.

    It’s just a riveting analysis (and condemnation on liberal elites):

    Fortunately enough (for them), most inhabitants of the overclass seem to know intuitively that these freewheeling scripts don’t bear that much relationship to the way that successful, upwardly-mobile people actually live and mate and marry.

    In this sense, one might suspect our cultural elites of being a little bit like the Silicon Valley parents who send their kids to computer-free schools: They (he means Jews) don’t mind pushing the moral envelope in the shows they greenlight and the songs they produce, because they’re confident that their own kids have the sophistication required to regard Robin Thicke and Miley Cyrus as amusements rather than role models, the social capital required to keep the culture’s messages at arm’s length.

    PS I live in Chicago, and Sabrina knows this. I don’t know why she fears speech so much, that she’d lie.

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  253. “Yesterday’s Science Friday on NPR was talking about how they are now using AI …”

    Lol, I can bet you won’t hear this story about AI on sh!tlib fake news “NPR”: https://thehackernews.com/2016/03/tay-artificial-intelligence.html

    You can bet this means that “AI” will be monopolized as the same Alphabet Inc. types who want to censor speech they don’t like hearing. But I doubt they can control AI as it develops, or can they corner that market too? Will be interesting to follow, because they won’t like AI if it’s actually free to think.

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  254. Helmethofer,

    I don’t see where that author mentioned the Jews or even implied that the Jews were pushing some kind of liberal agenda. Where do you get this crap from? And don’t point us to some Nazi site that makes baseless claims.

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  255. I think Chicago is a lock for Amazon. How about (((Rauner))) backstabbing his entire voting base, Cardinal Cupich, the GOP, and every decent person in Illinois? Yep, he lied thru his teeth, backstabbed everyone who relied on him, did what he said he would NOT do, and he signed that disgusting abortion bill which requires all taxpayers to pay for that barbaric procedure. (((Rauner))) showed that he is, and always will be Jews First. I guess he doesn’t want to run again as a Republican and he wants to be accepted back at his rich financier Jewish dinner parties, so he voted to make abortion for gentiles more readily available. Now he’ll be accepted back into that depraved evil society.

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  256. “I don’t see where that author mentioned the Jews or even implied ”

    It’s implied. Whenever you hear someone talk about changes “post Sexual revolution” or “post Sixties”, it implies it. Any discussion that implies that there was virtue beforehand implies WASP noblesse oblige in comparison.

    Look at the (((Rauner))) example for a prime example. It’s not the rich who have abortions.

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  257. I don’t understand this fixation on Jews. They are a minority who have been persecuted since the dawn of the religion and yet even a genocide couldn’t wipe them out. I don’t like grouping people based on their race/religion, but overall the average Jewish person seems to be doing darn well compared to the average non-Jewish person in spite of all of the hatred that they have faced. Does the hatred stem from jealousy? It makes no sense to me when most Jewish people are contributing members of society who for the most part contribute more to this country than they get out of this country.

    Being persecuted tends to make people feel more liberal towards other differences. My Jewish grandparents taught me to be tolerant to many different lifestyles. Although, they didn’t understand why someone would want to change genders, for instance, they believed that transgender people deserve have equal rights. I truly do not understand why there is such hatred towards transgender people. What have they ever done to inspire such hatred? Why do you care if someone else wants to change genders?

    Ugh. Sorry. I’m just sick of the hatred that hh spews.

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  258. “It’s implied. Whenever you hear someone talk about changes “post Sexual revolution” or “post Sixties”, it implies it. Any discussion that implies that there was virtue beforehand implies WASP noblesse oblige in comparison.”

    That’s patently absurd. Prove it.

    Do you hear voices?

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  259. Why don’t you address the specific issues related to governance of Illinois and the NY Times article instead of going all strawman on us? We have colleges and universities in Chicago having formal “white privilege” classes and seminars and you try an claim that we shouldn’t be “grouping people based on their race”? Lol. Nice try though. Jewish privilege and racism is a subset of the white privilege that David Letterman just tweeted we need to check.

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  260. You’re not thinking clearly yet Gary, and at this point maybe you never will.

    The old order: WASPS

    noblesse oblige
    DEFINITION
    the inferred responsibility of privileged people to act with generosity and nobility toward those less privileged

    The new order which is Jewish in spirit (((Sexual Revolution))) and (((post-Sixties))) is moral and cultural disorder which inordinately affect THE POOR, but not the elite. Did you read that article?

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  261. Jewish in spirit? What the heck are you talking about? How is any of this Jewish in spirit? What does that even mean?

    I skimmed the article. He never references the Jews and there is no implication of that either.

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  262. “What the heck are you talking about?”

    ((((tehHof)))) is even more self-referential than the Trumpster.

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  263. What is Jewish privilege? I don’t feel particularly privileged by having a Jewish background. I feel lucky to have been born a woman with “white” skin in the United States. Having parents of a specific religious ancestry doesn’t confer anything special on me.

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  264. The obnoxious (((parentheses))) really help to drive (((home))) the point he is (((trying))) to make.

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  265. “Do you hear voices?”

    Lol. Thanks for the laugh Gary.

    HH is seriously disturbed. Thank goodness he doesn’t actually live in Chicago or I would be freaked out.

    So much hatred. Of everyone. Just oozing out of his words.

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  266. I’m just sick of the hatred that hh spews.

    Me too.

    Here’s who HH hates:

    Jews
    Women
    Mexicans
    Blacks

    Anyone else I am missing?

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  267. “How about (((Rauner))) backstabbing his entire voting base, Cardinal Cupich, the GOP, and every decent person in Illinois?”

    HH, I know you don’t live in Illinois, but you DO have to realize that Rauner’s voting base is moderate Democrats, right?

    Who voted for him the first time? Many of those in the suburbs who were sick of what was going on in Springfield. Everyone downstate will vote for him every time because there’s an R next to his name. They will NEVER vote for the Democrat.

    So with a coalition of those Republican voters downstate, plus the moderate Republicans in and around Chicago plus the moderate Democrats, he assures himself re-election.

    Cardinal Cupich, bless his heart, isn’t a factor. The Catholic Church no longer wields much power in the state now that attendance has dwindled thanks to sex scandals, among other things.

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  268. Y”ou can bet this means that “AI” will be monopolized as the same Alphabet Inc. types who want to censor speech they don’t like hearing.”

    I don’t understand the hatred the Alt-right has against America’s greatest companies.

    HH, would you rather use Weibo instead? That can be arranged.

    Thank god the United States of America invented these technologies first, so at least we have them headquartered here and operating here. It’s no surprise China has banned all of the western social media companies. We probably would have done the same to theirs.

    If you look at the job creation with Amazon in Seattle (and what will happen with its second headquarters), it’s likely that company will create at least 100,000 highly paid jobs over the course of about 10 years (not including the distribution facilities.) That’s incredible. Who else has even come close to that in the last 50 years? Maybe you have to look back at General Motors in its heyday in the 1950s to see that kind of great job growth.

    That’s also why it is messing up Seattle, which is just too small of a city to handle it. They HAVE to have a second headquarters.

    Long live American companies. And I hope they corner the AI market, especially companies like Nvidia etc.

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  269. “PS I live in Chicago, and Sabrina knows this. I don’t know why she fears speech so much, that she’d lie.”

    HH does NOT live in Chicago. Never has and never will.

    No one lives in a city they hate this much. Unless they’re in jail, of course. Then they have no choice.

    He never has anything of substance to say about any of the buildings/neighborhoods we discuss on this site. Just spouts his generalized hatred of political figures (all of them, actually) and his racism, anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia and everything else.

    But we all know this.

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  270. “Gee, sounds like an old idea called the WPA, from which we still enjoy the benefits today.”

    Yes, this is what that program was during the Depression. I’m all for having people do infrastructure projects in exchange for their welfare or other public benefits. I would love for those on SSDI to do it but most have some kind of medical problem.

    Aren’t more people on SSDI now versus welfare though? So I wonder how many would be available to do a program like this.

    With the labor market this tight, if they ever DO pass infrastructure (which I doubt at this point since the Trump administration is incompetent), they’re going to have a difficult time finding anyone to do it. There simply aren’t enough construction workers. I have friends in Houston who’ve been told they may have to wait a year to get any help on renovations at their house due to the hurricane.

    I also have friends in Southwest Michigan, in Holland, who have had their bathroom under renovation for 6 months. Yes, 6 months, because the contractors are so backed up they work on multiple projects at once and only for like 2 hours a day on each. You can’t really complain because there is no one else to hire.

    The home builders are also reporting problems finding workers in some locations.

    Ah, the problems of a hot economy.

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  271. “I posit the American dream is the plumber guy for most people.”

    I never said the “dream” was someone becoming a multi-millionaire.

    For most people, if they grew up in a trailer park and managed to move out of that trailer park and into a middle class suburb, that is considered social mobility. The survey they’ve been doing for 50 years shows that very few people ever do that move from one generation to the next. I never said no one did, but it’s few.

    And now we even have some backpedaling. Many Millennials will be going from middle class to lower middle class because there are no longer the factory jobs or even the plumber jobs available to stay middle class. More and more jobs are moving towards “information.” Who’s best suited for those jobs? The upper middle class.

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  272. “So how does that work if they spend down their savings, but still live in a house that has some equity? They need to sell the house and take that equity and rent for a while until they are totally broke or what? Also how long does it take to get in a nursing home, do you have to apply months in advance?”

    My grandmother sold her house and all her investments. She had only cash and moved into the nursing home. It then took about 6 years for her to spend down all the money. Once you get under $20,000 or so, you fill out all the paperwork to qualify for Medicaid. Once your assets go to $2,000, you go on the Medicaid.

    If you are paying your own way, getting into a nursing home isn’t that hard. They have built a lot of them in recent years. Getting into a supportive living facility that will let you go on Medicaid, may have a wait list depending on the building. You may have to wait a few months to get in. It depends.

    Also, if you can still live on your own but just don’t have the money, you can get into government supported senior apartments where the rent is like $700 a month. There was a wait list for these in the western suburbs (mostly because the Baby Boomers haven’t saved enough and have too much debt.) Many retirees are only living on their Social Security. So they only have like $1200 a month (the average check.) Many have equity loans on their homes so they aren’t really living “free” in their homes either.

    It’s a mess. So many people don’t plan.

    Imagine if we didn’t have Social Security?

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  273. “Seattle vs Minneapolis? Not at all similar?”

    Unless you’ve lived in a city where the median home price is over $500k, you really don’t have anything in common with them. No one in Minneapolis, Birmingham, Cleveland, Kansas City, St Louis (etc. etc.) can understand what it’s like living somewhere like Seattle with that housing market and the total domination of something like 20% of the office market by one company: Amazon.

    They have nothing in common at all.

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  274. “Trust me you don’t want to be in a public nursing home.”

    People mistake various levels of care.

    Supportive living isn’t a nursing home. Nursing homes are the last level of care. That’s dementia, can’t get out of the bed due to stroke etc, Alzheimer’s etc. Most (but not all) don’t live long in nursing homes. I don’t know the actual stat, but if your mother lived 5 years in a home like that that would be really, really long.

    In supportive living, however, people could live for a decade or more. It still costs $4600 a month for supportive living in Illinois. Your policy would cover supportive living, Gary. Nursing homes in Illinois are $8,000 to $9,000 a month. But, again, most people don’t live in them for long.

    I also don’t think there are a lot of “public” nursing homes. Most all take private funds with some having a Medicaid crossover component so when your money runs out, the government then takes over. Other facilities are completely private pay only (so you have to have all the funds to pay your own way for your entire stay.)

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  275. “They have nothing in common at all”. That is a completely arbitrary and unfounded opinion. The hyperbole!!!

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  276. “I’ve taken care of my mothers finances about 5 years ago. They eventually will get sick, why wait?”

    How would you do that GoneFishin. Say they’re 80. You think, “they might need to go somewhere in 5 years.”

    Do they start giving away the money to their children? You’re limited on how much you can give every year. And then they look back like 5 years. So if it takes 5 years to get rid of their money, they’re 85. Then they “go” into the nursing home at age 90? How can you possibly even plan like that?

    What if they’re 80, in perfect health, but start falling down or almost burn down the kitchen trying to cook dinner. You’re worried about them falling and no one being there. Perhaps you don’t want to wait 5 years to get rid of their money before you put them into supportive living. Then what?

    You make it sound so easy. It isn’t. And with so much elder financial abuse, I wouldn’t recommend most elderly gift over their cash to their kids. Sorry. I’ve seen the financial abuse over and over again.

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  277. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/more-records-fall-median-home-price-hits-722000-in-seattle-and-880000-on-eastside/

    “Central Seattle” is down (as of April).

    Really shocking that as prices begin to be unaffordable for the majority, it pushes pricing up in the outlying areas.

    Not an expert on Seattle but STL/MSP/KC all have well functioning existing suburbs that can provide options in pricing gets too expensive.

    Your local knowledge of other than Chicago Midwest cities is lacking. I’d stop using them as examples

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  278. “Anyone else I am missing?”

    Megacap Technology corporations?

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  279. “and he signed that disgusting abortion bill which requires all taxpayers to pay for that barbaric procedure.”

    good because I’d rather pay a little for that now than a lifetime of fucking welfare or prison for more unwanted children

    you are all over the place man, take your meds you wackjob

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  280. “Anyone else I am missing?”

    tehgayz.
    white people who aren’t sufficiently hateful of all the groups he hates.
    creatives.
    certain eastern “europeans”
    “golobhomos”

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  281. “You make it sound so easy. ”

    Where did GF imply it was easy? He just said that he did it. Maybe it cost him $100k in estate lawyer fees–we dunno.

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  282. “Where did GF imply it was easy? He just said that he did it. ”
    Now it’s clear who the ‘live-in’ gf was bragging about is

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  283. “Now it’s clear who the ‘live-in’ gf was bragging about is”

    WTF is wrong with you?

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  284. 14k a year as a gift per person. Several children and grandchildren involved. Is this difficult? No. Everybodies situation is different but to act like this is so hard to do, I’m not sure what to say. And, the old adage, people don’t plan to fail, they fail to plan is so true. And yes, an atty advises us. He is on retainer with our family because we own real estate and he does everybody’s taxes. Plus, I’m personally being sued right now and my brother is adopting a child and another family member is getting divorced. So he is taking care of all that. Always something.

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  285. “14k a year as a gift per person. Several children and grandchildren involved. Is this difficult? No. Everybodies situation is different but to act like this is so hard to do, I’m not sure what to say. And, the old adage, people don’t plan to fail, they fail to plan is so true. And yes, an atty advises us. He is on retainer with our family because we own real estate and he does everybody’s taxes. Plus, I’m personally being sued right now and my brother is adopting a child and another family member is getting divorced. So he is taking care of all that. Always something.”

    Yep. This. The giveaways fly under the radar if you do $14k a year. You can go over that, but have to report it on your taxes. If you have lots of money, this trick won’t really work so it won’t make a dent, but it’s good for middle class people. My grandpa reached a point where he didn’t want to spend the money on himself after my grandma died. We wanted him to do things and take trips and use the money for himself, but he decided to give it away instead. His lawyer advised that this method was a good way of making sure that his loved ones inherited his savings.

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  286. If your Grandparents are married, they can double that, and if the grandchildren are married double that again… so 56k a year you can gift in certain situations without worrying about gift taxes

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  287. the $14k only matters if you have an estate large enough to be subject to the estate tax. gifts larger than $14k need to be reported to the IRS and count against your lifetime estate tax exemptions. but most people don’t have estates large enough for the $14k rule to even matter.

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  288. yea the lifetime limit on giving gifts is over 5.34 million per person…

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  289. “the $14k only matters if you have an estate large enough to be subject to the estate tax. gifts larger than $14k need to be reported to the IRS and count against your lifetime estate tax exemptions. but most people don’t have estates large enough for the $14k rule to even matter.”

    It matters in this case because when you’re looking to get Medicaid the government wants to see tax returns if I recall correctly. If they see you’ve been giving money away, then it looks really bad. If you give away money under the $14k threshold, the government won’t see it when they are determining Medicaid eligibility.

    If a couple is married and one needs a nursing home, it can get really ugly because the government still wants you to pay down your assets, leaving the still healthy partner in financial distress. I think the healthy partner can still keep some of the assets, but it puts them in a dire predicament. (Hint: Buy long term care insurance, especially if you’re married.)

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  290. “If a couple is married and one needs a nursing home, it can get really ugly because the government still wants you to pay down your assets, leaving the still healthy partner in financial distress.”

    I have known people who get divorced for this reason.

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  291. “If a couple is married and one needs a nursing home, it can get really ugly because the government still wants you to pay down your assets, leaving the still healthy partner in financial distress.”

    This wasn’t my experience. Had a grandfather who went into a nursing home while my grandmother lived at home.

    Additionally, if you’re going into assisted living, you both can move in there together.

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  292. “the $14k only matters if you have an estate large enough to be subject to the estate tax. gifts larger than $14k need to be reported to the IRS and count against your lifetime estate tax exemptions. but most people don’t have estates large enough for the $14k rule to even matter.”

    You can only gift up to a million dollars, right? I thought that was the rule.

    Anything over $14,000 is subject to the gift tax. It has NOTHING to do with your estate size or paying the estate tax. Only 5,000 people paid the estate tax last year. It’s really just the very top of 1% (who don’t plan well.)

    The whole point of the $14,000 limit is so that you can’t just “give” your child $100,000 without any implications. Anyone would drain their estate instantly, right? You’d just gift over that $2 million house- no problem. You’d just give your child $50,000 to buy that condo.

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  293. “the $14k only matters if you have an estate large enough to be subject to the estate tax. gifts larger than $14k need to be reported to the IRS and count against your lifetime estate tax exemptions. but most people don’t have estates large enough for the $14k rule to even matter.”

    You’re right homedelete. It counts towards the givers estate. Only 5,000 people paid the estate tax last year so it’s moot.

    But- if you’re suddenly “gifting” $14,000 or $28,000 to your children and just 3 years later you’re suddenly going into the nursing home, they’d know. You’d literally have to be giving away $100,000 a year like 7 years in advance in order to “give away” $500,000 before going into a nursing home (since the government “looks back at assets.”) And then what do you do with the house? Sell it and put it in your name suddenly? As if they’re not going to figure that out in 5 to 7 years?

    And then there’s the elder abuse, like I said. An 80+ year old person who is suddenly gifting big amounts to family members or friends should be looked at cautiously. WAY too many get taken advantage of.

    I still don’t see how you can exactly plan to the year when your parent is suddenly going to have 1) no assets AND 2) need to go into a nursing home or assisted living.

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  294. “Everybodies situation is different but to act like this is so hard to do, I’m not sure what to say.”

    What’s the estate size? Like I said, if they have virtually no assets (like $300,000) then maybe you could do this but if the main asset is a house, how do you do it? You can always get rid of cash but what if they don’t need a nursing home? What if they just need in home care? You’re assuming everyone loves mom and dad so much that they’re willing to pay out of the money they were “given” 5 years before from mom’s estate to now help her with the in home care.

    If someone has a much bigger estate, say $500,000 to a $1 million, then you’ll have to be in assisted living or a nursing home a LOOOOONG time to exhaust that money.

    My grandma lasted 6 years in assisted living before she exhausted her minimal estate. That’s because she was also getting a SS check which lowered the monthly nut. In assisted living, with a $1,000 a month SS check, it would take you 5 years to “spend down” a $200,000 estate.

    The real expense is in nursing home care which can run as high as $9,000 a month. But most people don’t live for years at the nursing home level. That’s the most intense level of care. You’re usually near death (with the exception of Alzheimers- which could, presumably, drain most resources. People can live many years with that disease at a high care cost.)

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  295. “But if the main asset is a house, how do you do it?”

    Life Estate. House goes to kids but mom gets to live in the house for the rest of her life.

    “You are assuming everyone loves mom and dad…”

    Money goes into a trust, not personal bank accounts.

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  296. “What’s the estate size? Like I said, if they have virtually no assets (like $300,000) then maybe you could do this but if the main asset is a house, how do you do it?”

    All I can say is what my grandpa’s lawyer advised. He owned an inexpensive condo and had maybe a couple hundred thousand in the bank (not sure of the exact amount) left by the time my grandma passed away. He gave most of his savings away to my parents over the course of a few year after my grandma died.

    He sadly, passed away before he needed to spend down the rest of his estate. I don’t know what would have happened if he needed Medicaid. I assume that they would have looked at his taxes and seen that he didn’t give away money because he kept it under the amount that requires reporting. How closely and how far back do they go when looking at one’s bank accounts? The lawyer advised that giving away money in this manner would fly under the radar. The government doesn’t care about people with relatively tiny estates.

    If you do give away money and then need Medicaid, does the government go after the people who received the money? What if the people already spent the money? How were they supposed to guess that the person giving away the money would end up in a nursing home 3 years later?

    If the person needing the nursing home gave the money to charity, then what would the government do?

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  297. “If you do give away money and then need Medicaid, does the government go after the people who received the money? What if the people already spent the money? How were they supposed to guess that the person giving away the money would end up in a nursing home 3 years later?”

    It’s at least 3 years. Might be 5 years. They look at everything. Tax returns AND bank statements/investments.

    If you give away your money in order to qualify for Medicaid, then it could be considered fraud.

    Jenny- your example is exactly what I mean. How would you know 3 to 5 years in advance that your Grandpa may need to go into a nursing home? You don’t.

    Anyone can give away money before they die. Someone with a small estate would never pay estate tax anyway. But there’s a lot of elder financial abuse in those situations.

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  298. “Money goes into a trust, not personal bank accounts.”

    In Illinois, trusts are not exempt from Medicaid. You can’t hide assets there. Even if the trust was arranged, and assets put in, 30 years before the person goes into the nursing home.

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  299. “It’s at least 3 years. Might be 5 years. They look at everything. Tax returns AND bank statements/investments.
    If you give away your money in order to qualify for Medicaid, then it could be considered fraud.”

    How would they ever prove that you gave away the money to avoid spending down your estate if you give it away over 5 years? After my grandma died, my grandpa didn’t see any use for his money. It gave him joy to see us use his money. I mostly saved it though because I am conservative with money.

    You may not know with certainty that you are going to need a nursing home, but my grandpa just couldn’t see a use for his money anymore. His house was paid off, he didn’t want to take trips without my grandma, he rarely drove and never cared about cars. He didn’t think his life would be worth living if he was to go into an assisted living facility. When he was in the rehabilitation center, he realized his body was giving out and he just stopped eating because he believed he wouldn’t get better.

    I’ve chosen to buy long term care insurance. At my age, it’s cheap and my rate is locked in for life.

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  300. American Dream? Suckers, fall for that shit.

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