“2nd bed is den/office” At 10 E. Delaware In The Gold Coast
This 2-bedroom at 10 E. Delaware, the newer construction high rise in the Gold Coast, has been on and off the market since January 2010.
It recently came back on the market listed as a 2 bedroom, 1.5 bath unit with the listing saying “2nd bed is den/office.”
A den/office usually doesn’t have a closet. In Chicago, to be a bedroom, it has to have a closet.
Is it a bedroom or a den then?
This is the “A” unit. I have never seen it listed as anything other than a 1 bedroom plus den.
Another A unit, #17A, is also currently on the market. That is listed as a 1-bedroom plus den for $729,900 (parking extra.)
You can see the listing for that unit here.
In fact, in its older listings, #11A was listed as a 1 bedroom plus den just as all the other A units are always listed.
These A units were originally marketed as luxury 1-bedrooms.
Unit #11A has 1023 square feet.
The kitchen is Poggenpohl and has SubZero, Miele and Wolf appliances.
The master bath is marble.
If you include the parking, this unit is listed $125,000 more than the January 2010 purchase price.
Will this unit get the premium over the 2010 sale?
And what will buyers think who go to look at the unit expecting to see a 2-bedroom?
Timothy Salm at Jameson Sotheby’s has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #11A: 2 bedrooms, 1.5 baths, 1023 square feet
- Sold in January 2010 for $615,000 (included the parking)
- Originally listed in January 2010 for $699,900
- Reduced
- Was listed as low as $649,000 in February 2011
- Withdrawn
- Currently listed for $675,000 (parking $65,000 extra)
- Assessments of $481 a month (includes pool, doorman, a/c)
- Taxes of $8392
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 12×12
- Bedroom #2 (den????): 9×9
It has natural light… so yes???
Though honestly, we all know it’s a den/office. And I’m assuming any potential buyer is going to look at it the same way.
It’s a den, stupid realtor should no better than to try and market a 9×9 room with no closet a bedroom.
*know. lol
I’m just curious where you get “In Chicago, to be a bedroom, it has to have a closet.” I am a Realtor and I hear this ALL the time from people. But this is not true, by definition. According to our MLS rules, in order to be considered a bedroom the room must fit this criteria:
BEDROOM
-Basement bedrooms (50% below adjacent grade level) may NOT be counted in the total bedrooms count.
-A bedroom is defined as a private room closed off from other living space, which does not have its only entrance from another bedroom.
-This definition will meet appraiser standards for bedrooms and would exclude tandem rooms.
-A room without a closet is countable as a bedroom.
This was taken directly from our “Room Counting Publication” from MRED LLC, the provider of our MLS system. Note the last sentence specifically shows that a room can be a bedroom even if it doesn’t have a closet.
Understood and agreed, it can be a bit misleading at times when someone comes in to a “bedroom” and expects to find a closet, and doesn’t. That’s why careful marketing is important – it’s not in anyone’s interest to waste time showing a property when the lack of closet space will be an immediate deal-breaker. But to say it can’t be counted as a bedroom is untrue.
There are many condo dwellers that use a room without a closet as a baby room or guest room; I see this all the time. Often you’ll find decorative armoires or something instead of a closet. So it’s certainly possible that someone could use this room as a bedroom even without a closet (although maybe not in the sense of the term that you’re used to).
Just wanted to clear that up 🙂
“A bedroom is defined as a private room closed off from other living space, which does not have its only entrance from another bedroom”
Eileen–is there another standard that lets the “borrowed light” rooms which are not really “private” to count as MLS bedrooms?
Thanks Eileen – that is helpful. It raises a question in my mind, however…
Based on your first criteria, aren’t a lot of duplex down condos (and some SFHs as well) overstating the number of bedrooms since many of them are below grade. I would think that this applies to almost all of your typical duplex downs. What am I missing here?
Excellent question Jon!! I’ll hang up and wait for a response.
“Based on your first criteria, aren’t a lot of duplex down condos (and some SFHs as well) overstating the number of bedrooms since many of them are below grade.”
Yes.
“I would think that this applies to almost all of your typical duplex downs. What am I missing here?”
Nothing.
Do realtors get fined or reprimanded for improperly representing information in a listing such as the number of ‘legit’ bedrooms even?
Would make sense as to why so many bend the rules if there is no real actionable punishment for doing such a thing
I never understoond why bedrooms in basements are not counted. I have a small room that is considered a bedroom on the main floor of our house. I use it as my man cave. The room is too narrow to be a true bedroom imho although it does have a closet and window. We also have a dormer room on the top floor that is also called a “bedroom” but unless you are Peter Dinklage it simply would not be functional – although it has closet and window.
Yet, the 15 * 15 room with closet and half height window in our basement is not considered a bedroom just by virtue of it being in the basement????
I thought the basement thing had something to do with ability to get out of the house (like in case of fire), but I have no idea how / where this idea originated. I have two rooms in my basement that could function well as bedrooms (one we use as a guest bedroom), and I was under the impression that the glassblock windows would have to be replaced with something you could open or I guess easily break through in order to count as bedrooms.
“aren’t a lot of duplex down condos (and some SFHs as well) overstating the number of bedrooms since many of them are below grade. I would think that this applies to almost all of your typical duplex downs.”
“Basement bedrooms (50% below adjacent grade level) may NOT be counted in the total bedrooms count.”
Perhaps the duplex down lower levels are at or less than 50% below grade? Or do the front sunken patios constitute “grade” by which they are compared?
“A bedroom is defined as a private room closed off from other living space, which does not have its only entrance from another bedroom.”
I think 50% of the town houses in Lincoln Park/Lakeview violate this… all those w/ the lofts above the master BR accessed through the master, but labeled as an additional bedroom.
“-A room without a closet is countable as a bedroom.”
In Europe, they don’t always have closets….that’s why IKEA sells closet wardrobe systems that stand up against the wall, Chronicles of Narnia had a separate wardrobe, etc.
For the last year or so, the MLS listing input program allows an agent to designate “above grade” and “below grade” bedrooms. When an agent does a search for desired properties from a potential buyer, s/he can request a search that either includes or excludes below-grade bedrooms.
If the MLS did not allow below-grade bedrooms to be mentioned, a lot of duplex-down condos would show “no” bedrooms!
I was taught that a bedroom must have a door, built-in closet and natural light source (in lofts, this means light from the living room window via the 3/4 wall).
“This was taken directly from our “Room Counting Publication” from MRED LLC, the provider of our MLS system. Note the last sentence specifically shows that a room can be a bedroom even if it doesn’t have a closet.”
But the MRED isn’t the “god” of real estate in the state or city, is it? Not that I’ve heard. It’s simply a listing service.
Can some other realtors please speak up?
Where is Joe Zekas when you need him?
It’s understood that it has to have natural light (at least in the city of Chicago) to be considered a bedroom. That is why all the lofts have those 3/4ths walls.
I thought a closet was a requirement as well. If not- no condo would EVER list a den. They would all list bedrooms because who would want a den versus a bedroom? No one. Heck, if you had a window in your bathroom, why not just list that as a bedroom too?
If all of these 1-bedroom plus den A units could have been 2/1.5 units- wouldn’t you think they’d ALL be listed that way? Again- why would you EVER want a den? 2-bedrooms sell much better than 1-bedrooms.
“Though honestly, we all know it’s a den/office. And I’m assuming any potential buyer is going to look at it the same way.”
Why?
Let’s say you’re moving here from Phoenix. You tell your realtor, “I want a 2-bedroom downtown.” The realtor gives you a list of them in your price range. This unit comes up. You love the location. So you go look at it. But wait- once there you discover that the second “bedroom” has no closet and is really a den. Would you have “looked at it the same way”???
If the average person would not consider something to be a bedroom, then don’t flippin list it as a bedroom! It won’t make the place show better or sell for more money – all it will do is piss off the prospective buyers who wasted their time coming out to see a place that they were expecting to be a 2 bedroom that turns out to be a 1 bedroom with a utility closet.
Some realtors think that its wise to do absolutely anything to get someone to come see a listing, but never quite think through the part about actually getting the place SOLD. What would make me as a prospective buyer actually want to buy the home?
OK in answer to all of your questions:
1) anon (tfo) (October 16, 2012, 4:53 pm) “Eileen–is there another standard that lets the “borrowed light” rooms which are not really “private” to count as MLS bedrooms?”
Are you referring to the bedrooms in the soft-loft style units where one of the walls doesn’t go all the way up to the ceiling? If so, these can still count as bedrooms in the MLS because they still fit the three criteria mentioned above.
2) Jon (October 16, 2012, 4:55 pm) “Based on your first criteria, aren’t a lot of duplex down condos (and some SFHs as well) overstating the number of bedrooms since many of them are below grade. I would think that this applies to almost all of your typical duplex downs. What am I missing here? ”
This is a great question. Customarily in our market, the bottom level of a duplex down is labeled a “lower level”, and not a “basement”. And that’s why the lower level bedrooms are counted in the total bedroom count. Although, Benjy is correct in saying that, officially, a lower level is defined as “an area that is not more than 50% below adjacent grade level (includes English Basement)” – and we do know that many duplex down lower levels are more than 50% below grade, but to put it simply, this is one of those “rules” that is very loosely policed for this simple reason: Take, for example, a 2400 sq ft duplex down condo with all three bedrooms in the bottom level. Then would it make sense to label the bottom level a “basement” and therefore call it a 0 bedroom unit? That would cause more confusion than necessary, and therefore the real estate community generally finds it acceptable to call the bottom level a “lower level” and therefore include the bedrooms there in the total bedroom count when dealing with this type of property.
3) Sonies (October 16, 2012, 5:07 pm) “Do realtors get fined or reprimanded for improperly representing information in a listing such as the number of ‘legit’ bedrooms even?”
Yes. We get fined. And typically those fines are paid by the listing agent out of their own pocket, not by the listing brokerage. However, policing the inaccuracies in our MLS is very difficult. MRED does not have a huge “listing police taskforce” dedicated to finding everything wrong with every listing, but they do spot checks here and there. Additionally, agents can individually and anonymously report errors/inaccuracies/rule violations by clicking a button on our MLS and then it is investigated further by MRED. If it is in fact a rule violation, the listing agent will typically get an email or fax asking them to correct the information, and if they don’t within a certain period of time, they’re given a fine.
4) Russ (October 16, 2012, 5:14 pm) “Yet, the 15 * 15 room with closet and half height window in our basement is not considered a bedroom just by virtue of it being in the basement????”
By MLS standards, yes. Obviously, you can call it a bedroom and no one will have a problem with it. But if it’s listed in the MLS and that room is in the basement, then by default, the MLS system will not count it as a bedroom.
5) Benjy – “I think 50% of the town houses in Lincoln Park/Lakeview violate this… all those w/ the lofts above the master BR accessed through the master, but labeled as an additional bedroom.”
Agreed. Should be called a den or loft.
Of course – to Sabrina’s point, the MLS is not the “god” of real estate in the city. Here I am only referring to how things are allowed to be listed in the MLS. When it comes to commonspeak or by-owner listings or city building code, then we’re opening up a whole new can of worms.
Thanks for the honesty about the bedrooms
I have let more than 1 realtor go because of misrepresentations
“If so, these can still count as bedrooms in the MLS because they still fit the three criteria mentioned above.”
Oh, so “private” has a realtor-speak definition. Just like “basement”.
anon (tfo) – ah, I see what you mean. The question, then, really is – What is considered “private”? Does privacy relate to sound/noise privacy, or only viewing privacy? Unfortunately this isn’t defined so I would say this is a grey area. Just like in any other rulebook, law, tax code, etc., there is always something that’s left open to interpretation.
Another bland “luxury” condo building. Poggenpohl has some really nice cabinets but these look no different than something you can buy in Home Depot. Developers, lets get a little creative.
marco, it’s about the location I guess
Though I don’t know if that area can ask for over $600 psf
Associaton dues and taxes are cheaper on a one plus vs two bed so whomever cannot think of a reason why someone would want a one plus over two bedroom, You just got Mitt Romney’d. Hehe.
Now here is a legit question: if the sq ft is the same bt one plus vs two bedroom, would the assys + taxes be the same as well? Hmmm…..
In addition to other requirements, City of Chicago code requires residential “sleeping rooms” have a minimum of 70 sq ft floor area, 50 sq ft per person if occupied by more than one person. The MLS requirement which only accounts for access and location is not sufficient.
“Associaton dues and taxes are cheaper on a one plus vs two bed so whomever cannot think of a reason why someone would want a one plus over two bedroom, You just got Mitt Romney’d. Hehe.”
Association dues are determined by square footage- not how many bedrooms. So the bedroom total is irrelevant.
Actually, Association dues are determined by “percentage of ownership” per the Condominium docs. Yes, this might frequently be based upon square footage alone, but I’m not sure that’s always the case. For example, in a high rise, the 1000 square foot unit on the 2d floor might not have the same percentage of ownership as the 1000 square foot unit on the 40th floor w/ the amazing view & that was originally priced 50% higher. I also think 2 identically sized unit on the same floor—where one has the preferred view–might have different ownership percentages, and different dues (and taxes) based upon significantly different original market value. Not sure whether there’d be much difference between a 2/1.5 and a 1/1.5 of equal square footage, but the condominium docs would determine that.
“Association dues are determined by square footage- not how many bedrooms. So the bedroom total is irrelevant”