52% Off the 2004 Price And Still It’s Not Selling: 3660 N. Lake Shore Drive in Lakeview
We’ve chattered about the distress sales in The New York Residences at 3660 N. Lake Shore Drive in Lakeview before.
The building was an apartment to condo conversion in 2004/2005.
This 2-bedroom on the 13th floor is currently listed for about 52% under the 2004 price.
Yes, it is bank owned.
It has been on the market since November 2010 and, in that time, has been reduced $52,450.
From the pictures, it appears that the kitchen and one of the bathrooms are intact (there are no pics of the second bathroom.)
The kitchen has white cabinets and appliances and granite counter tops.
The unit also has carpet.
There is no in-unit washer/dryer, but it does have central air and deeded parking is included.
This unit is currently the cheapest 2/2 for sale in the building.
How low will this go?
(You’ll also notice, the bank has owned this property for nearly a year now.)
Ayoub Rabah at Great Street Properties has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #1301: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, no square footage listed
- Sold in June 2004 for $487,500 (parking included)
- Lis pendens filed in June 2008
- Bank owned in April 2009
- Originally listed in November 2010 for $282,450
- Reduced several times
- Currently listed for $230,000 (parking included)
- Assessments of $654 a month (includes heat, ac, cable)
- Taxes of $5029
- Central Air
- No in-unit washer/dryer
- Bedroom #1: 15×10
- Bedroom #2: 13×12
- Living/dining: 16×13
- Kitchen: 8×7
It is bad luck to live on the 13th floor.
This is pretty sad how low things have gotten. All those people who were told that buying was such a great idea back in 2004. I find it hard to believe that it ever sold for close to $500K however, without some shady lending practices/sham appraisal. Are all the other owners in this building kind of screwed too, unless they bought in 2000 instead of 2004?
hmmm… 2 US Military Chinooks flying in formation past my window right now.. you guys invading?
HD, off subject slightly, but I’ve often wondered how you are able to determine that a sale was in cash (like that $500K place on springfield in IP) or if you know a person’s name, you can figure out what property he/she owns in a building?
This place was a disaster when it was a rental building, and they had trouble selling units here even at the height of the bubble.
It’s a shame because it’s in a really good location.
Is this where Rob Lowe’s character lived in Wayne’s World? That has to be worth something.
This building went up in the late 80s and was built as a rental. The apartments are bland, boring, and cramped, with low ceilings and tiny rooms. There is no space at all for your own washer/dryer and the closet space there is, is barely adequate.
The place was converted in the early 00s. I wonder how many of these bubble-induced conversions will revert to rental, even in “prime” neighborhoods like Lakeview, LP, and Near North.
Isn’t Obama visiting there this weekend?
“hmmm… 2 US Military Chinooks flying in formation past my window right now.. you guys invading?”
Icarus: ccrd.info is the website. Its a bit nuanced to read the info.
My significant other was reading the sag thread yesterday (but never posts) and commented ‘who is that guy who is chomping at the bit to buy a two flat on springfield?” PPatience my friend, patience.
“I find it hard to believe that it ever sold for close to $500K however, without some shady lending practices/sham appraisal. Are all the other owners in this building kind of screwed too, unless they bought in 2000 instead of 2004?”
This price is well below a quick look at the comps from 2000 (in this same tier.) Perhaps someone else can get us the data.
Plenty of units in this building sold in the $400s in 2004-2005. It was the peak of the housing boom, don’t forget.
“Ayoub Rabah at Great Street Properties has the listing”
so this agent seems to be the “bank owned” seller guy?
I went to a few parties in the party room here, it was the shills throwing them if IIRC and it felt very “sell you a time share, we will give you a vacation for stopping by even if you dont purchase”
even back then with all the bubble hype it didnt feel like a “deal” i was not impressed witht the conversion.
“This is pretty sad how low things have gotten.”
Not at all. It’s going to be good for society to have housing at a more reasonable cost, as a smaller part of your overall income; more couples may be able to afford to have one person quit their job to raise their kids at home as a stay-at-home mom or dad.
What is very sad is how inflated things got, and how many people bought into the bubble mentality, expecting 10-20% yearly gains, using their place as an ATM, ect…
What is really interesting is that MOST of the properties in Lincoln Park featured on CC in the past 2 months are all under contract but the same is NOT true for properties in any other area (despite the properties in the other areas being seemingly good deals while the properties featured in Lincoln Park got dissed and people thought they were too expensive).
The only reason would be that old saying: location, location, location!!! I guess the type of property and price isn’t as important as the location. I told you guys this before, buy in a highly desirable area and you will do well…. we are seeing examples of this every frickin day. What more proof do you guys need?
This building was a disaster as most of the large high rise rental conversions and had a ton of specuvestors. Not surprisingly, it is on the no lend list as many banks won’t touch it. The units were barely upgraded from their rental finishes.
Well said, nwzimmer.
Sabrina, some Tier 01 sales:
Closed Date Unit # Sold Pr
12/26/2001- 2701 – $415,700
7/3/2002 – 3301 – $421,700
12/2/2002 – 401 – $168,500
12/20/2002- 1501 – $405,200
1/2/2003 – 2601 – $387,500
5/9/2003 – 2001 – $396,500
7/15/2003 – 4501 – $380,000
9/4/2003 – 1801 – $469,000
9/4/2003 – 3901 – $415,010
10/8/2003 – 3301 – $470,000
2/28/2004 – 3101 – $489,500
6/16/2004 – 2201 – $552,000
7/16/2004 – 1401 – $488,100
7/16/2004 – 1601 – $543,200
6/30/2005 – 901 – $143,000
7/8/2005 – 4101 – $379,000
7/12/2005 – 2701 – $456,500
10/25/2005- 1801 – $399,000
5/1/2006 – 3201 – $375,000
9/21/2006 – 3201 – $540,000
9/26/2006 – 1901 – $334,000
10/11/2006- 3601 – $395,000
12/26/2006- 2801 – $355,000
1/18/2008 – 1501 – $325,000
4/3/2009 – 2601 – $250,000
8/17/2009 – 1801 – $275,000
10/2/2009 – 2101 – $241,000
11/25/2009- 1601 – $325,000
12/29/2009- 2701 – $300,000
3/12/2010 – 2901 – $265,000
7/31/2010 – 1701 – $270,000
8/27/2010 – 1801 – $284,500
11/3/2010 – 4401 – $303,000
11/17/2010- 2301 – $260,000
“My significant other was reading the sag thread yesterday (but never posts) and commented ‘who is that guy who is chomping at the bit to buy a two flat on springfield?” PPatience my friend, patience.”
thx HD I got a better look at the springfield property…carports, no garage. looked too cramped to build one right behind the building but it is a double lot so maybe? Price would have to drop a lot for me to take a chance.
Icarus: it has to drop a lot more. There aren’t any deals in our area, and there are too many properties listed above 400k that wont ever sell at those prices. Our area really is a bit of a hold out.
HD, but wouldn’t the sale across the street provide a justifiable comp?
I lived a block away from here in the early 1980’s when it was still a vacant lot. The neighbors regarded the space as a sort of “people’s park” for dog-walking, picnicking, exercising, pick-up softball/touch football games and above all PARKING. If you didn’t mind the mud you could frequently get away with parking your car overnight with no hassle from the cops.
The developers of 3660 went through a lot of grief with the alderman, zoning board and neighborhood groups before the first of the proposed two hirises, plus townhouses, was finally built. The big lawn was eventually going to have more residential buildings erected on it; something tells me those plans have gone by the wayside.
By the time the New York was ready for renters, the under-the-radar “scoop” was that as soon as the building was full, it wiuld be converted to condos and of course the tenants would have first pick. Hence a lot of eye-on-the-prize newcomers to the city moved into the New York.
Sure enough, when the conversion was begun, at least 1/3 of the sales were to tenants. Unfortunately, AMVSO had a big problem selling the remaining spaces; it took several years of aggressive marketing, brokers’ tours and sub-prime in-house lending to complete the project.
Now there’s a boatload of foreclosures as any quick look at the Legal ads in the “News Star” papers over the last couple years will attest. Almost every week there is at least one “Notice of Sheriff’s Sale” notice for a condo here. Unfortunately the dollar amount of indebtedness is rarely printed so it’s hard to figure if it would be a good “deal” for a cash buyer.
Hey, maybe the Cubs could do a buyout and save on the cost of constructing a new Wrigleyville hotel!
Clio makes a good point.
“What is really interesting is that MOST of the properties in Lincoln Park featured on CC in the past 2 months are all under contract but the same is NOT true for properties in any other area …
The only reason would be that old saying: location, location, location!!!”
Lincoln Park contract activity for attached and detached SFH so far in 2011 is underperforming the rest of Chicago.
“What more proof do you guys need?”
Data, of course.
Contract totals for attached and detached SFH for Jan, Feb and Mar 1-15 for Lincoln Park and the rest of Chicago. The percent changes are YOY and compared to 2007. Keep in mind, too, that current contract totals are inflated by some that will fall out and not be reflected in future historical totals.
Lincoln Park
Jan Feb Mar 1-15
2007 102 162 84
2008 72 111 66
2009 30 57 42
2010 68 83 60
2011 55 74 48
YOY -19% -11% -20%
YOY07 -46% -54% -43%
The Rest of Chicago
Jan Feb Mar 1-15
2007 2,460 2,706 1,632
2008 1,641 2,000 1,082
2009 1,148 1,304 790
2010 1,605 1,846 1,241
2011 1,573 1,690 1,114
YOY -2% -8% -10%
YOY07 -36% -38% -32%
“I guess the type of property and price isn’t as important as the location.”
I guess not.
“Clio makes a good point.”
Really?
“Lincoln Park contract activity for attached and detached SFH so far in 2011 is underperforming the rest of Chicago.
“What more proof do you guys need?””
G – You need proof? Just look at the properties in lincoln park featured on Cribchatter over the past couple of months – most are under contract (yeah, despite you and HD telling us that several of these properties wouldn’t sell). Then look at the properties in the other areas featured on CC – not many are under contract. maybe it is sample selection – but it is too big of a coincidence – so spout your doomsday scenario – you obviously have a big audience (especially with all the 20 some year old renters on this site).
“Lincoln Park contract activity for attached and detached SFH so far in 2011 is underperforming the rest of Chicago”
Moron – you can’t compare Lincoln park as a neighborhood to the rest of chicago. You have to do a neighborhood to neighborhood comparison. Jeez – what schooling have you had? That would be useful information to people on this site (as to where NOT to send your kids).
Icarus: the comp is 9 months old. Little has sold since then so yes that’s the comp. But given the sheer number of$ 400k plus properties in OIP, west walker, id wait personally and see what sells and at what price. Virtually all the less expensive properties have been ‘snapped’ up leaving all the overpriced junk. The fallout from the bubble is taking a long ttime to settle. I’ve worked very hard and saved very diiligently to just throw away years of savings on some overpriced two flat to convert to a sfh. Im tellling you I have a feeling that either this summer or next, the bottom is going to fall out of our aarea. Logically, it has to. The ridiculoiuslly high prices cannt be supported for much longer.
Yeah this building is a disaster along with Park Place Tower where i used to reside. Stay far far away from rental conversions, they are almost always bad deals
“Stay far far away from rental conversions, they are almost always bad deals”
– 111 E chestnut was a great deal (and yes, it was a condo conversion by american invesco)
It’s anecdote vs data and people can decide for themselves.
“yeah, despite you and HD telling us that several of these properties wouldn’t sell”
Any proof of that claim? You are a liar.
“so spout your doomsday scenario”
Any proof of that claim? You are a liar.
Anon(ufo),
he is making it difficult, i am trying but i dont know how much longer.
The mind of Steve heitman has miracously channelled into clio! But this is not medically possible!
Its only a ‘doomsday’ scenario for those specuvestors holding the overpriced properties. Its a welcome relief for the rest of us.
clio hate to break it to ya, but your 111 E. Chestnut property was not a good deal no matter how many times you say it is
“clio hate to break it to ya, but your 111 E. Chestnut property was not a good deal no matter how many times you say it is”
Wait, why?
I bought it in 1999 for 435/ Even in the current market, my tier is going for 595-800k. In addition, my rental return is 7-8%. So, I would say it IS a good deal!!!
“But this is not medically possible!”
Stop telling me how to do my job!!! (ha ha)
how much maintenance $ have you put into that place, and I highly doubt those properties that are going (aka selling, not ask prices) for 595-800k (yeah right) have not had extensive work done to them to justify the price
“Its only a ‘doomsday’ scenario for those specuvestors holding the overpriced properties. Its a welcome relief for the rest of us.”
Yes, and if some would only stop to think that lower house prices and specuvestor losses will bring more happiness to the masses than lambo drive-bys, I’m sure they’d accept the truth.
“how much maintenance $ have you put into that place, and I highly doubt those properties that are going (aka selling, not ask prices) for 595-800k (yeah right) have not had extensive work done to them to justify the price”
Fair question – I bought the model condo – so it was already upgraded. Since then, I spend about 1-3k/year (but I am including those costs when calculating my return). As for sales prices – for my tier, they ARE in the upper 500s-upper 600s range. I don’t know why – I personally think the building is a pos.
I lived here for a few years in the 90’s and loved it. Amazing views of the city and the lake, and nice private balconies. Bland finishes throughout, but I suppose a buyer can always remedy that. Wish they all had washer / dryers, or at least space for them to be installed.
I’d consider buying here for the views and location. Taxes seem a bit high, and assessments around average. You have to have the parking, too.
I’d only purchase above the 35th floor, facing southeast – that way you can see over the neighboring highrises and get almost a 180 degree view of the horizon.
Groove:
Spend some time talking Icarus off the ledge.
Icarus–yes, that comp across the street *might* make it possible to get a loan, but then you’d just be in the same boat as them, having overpaid.
Sabrina:
You mean the bank has owned it for almost **TWO** years. f/c deed was April 2009.
Groove, HD important question perhaps only you can answer: If I get off the Irving Park Blue line stop, it’s Independence Tap. If I get off Jefferson Park blue line stop, it’s Martini Bar. Which is the better criteria for choosing a home (j/k) 😀
Icarus,
i know you want to do it, but think long term when your 55 do you still want to be living in this house waiting for the “hood to turn”? as just a few blocks west the hood is good but you have that premium attached which is steep $$$.
take from me a marginal teetering on kind of bad hood takes a toll after a while.
and when you see it get better then slip to worse than when you started it hurts you not just financially house wise but hurts the heart too.
It pains me to see the foreclosures all around and good families have to leave the area. it pains me to see good shops gone replaced by ghetto ones or vacant spots. also to loose the small little restaurants the looked like a dump but the food was AWESOME and the owner would know your name and probably cook the food too with his mom and sister in the back.
all that weighs on the psyche, so before you set forth young grasshopper make sure your of sound mind and know what is to come.
PS thanks anon its a good distraction !
“If I get off Jefferson Park blue line stop, it’s Martini Bar. Which is the better criteria for choosing a home”
Gale st Inn!!!!!!!!!! enough said.
“waiting for the “hood to turn”? ”
I thought the little triangle between Elston, Pulaski, and Irving Park was okay? I certainly don’t think these homes are worth upwards of $500K, especially when you consider the cost to convert them.
HD, what would you consider a good price for the springfield home?
“G – You need proof? Just look at the properties in lincoln park featured on Cribchatter over the past couple of months – most are under contract (yeah, despite you and HD telling us that several of these properties wouldn’t sell).”
So in response to hundreds of data points, you posit that the small subset featured on here and what you say has happened to them make your point? Did you ever study statistics, logic or math?
It’s silly to assume some truism and then use confirmation bias to conjure up anecdotes that prove it to be true. My guess is that you could objectively rate desirability based on location and finishes and look at list annual price-assumed price appreciation over the last sale price, maybe do some correction for ability to accept a lower sale price based on (wait for it) an assumption of recorded mortgage payoff based on the amortization tables, and demonstrate that desirable properties priced with minimal or no appreciation over the last five years are being sold by sellers who can afford to accept the amount the market dictates the property is worth.
Great data, G, thanks.
“I thought the little triangle between Elston, Pulaski, and Irving Park was okay? I certainly don’t think these homes are worth upwards of $500K, especially when you consider the cost to convert them. ”
yeah “okay” is the phrase there. now said if there are ties to the hood it certainly makes things different. Do you think i would have stayed by riis park for ~10 years if other wise?
JJJ – once again attacking me for no reason. Just stop it. G’s “data” compares the contracts of Lincoln park against the entire rest of the city. To make any meaningful conclusions, you have to look at type of property, days on the market, final sales price, competition, etc. My underlying point (which is obviously too subtle and over-your-head) is that the analysis of all of this data is pointless to the average everyday homebuyer. The fact that so many of these expensive Lincoln Park properties are selling (despite being lambasted by cc’ers) is proof that most smart home buyers are NOT analyzing the data and basing their decision on how much money they can make or save on their purchase – so basically, people should stop this idiotic analysis and spend more time concentrating on what they want, where they want to live and how much they can afford. Bottom line. Now go bother someone else….
“yeah “okay” is the phrase there. now said if there are ties to the hood it certainly makes things different. Do you think i would have stayed by riis park for ~10 years if other wise?”
And okay warrants reasonable prices. And that Springfield place would seem “reasonable” to me at about $400k. North of $500, you can get a comparable 2-flat in a much “better” area, of course only on a single lot, rather than double.
“And that Springfield place would seem “reasonable” to me at about $400k.”
true but when spending hard earned 400k over 30 years (if it 30yr will still exist) which is no chump change by any means, do you really want to settle for “OKAY”.
not saying its a crazy idea, wrong thing to do or right thing, just throwing out the notion that “just okay” and 400k should not be equal or that hard thought should be used over a period of time for a conclusion to be made.
Clio, as usual, you’re wrong, I’m not attacking you – I’m attacking your poor analytical skills. Attacking you would be if I pointed out that nothing about you is subtle or over even the average moron’s head or if I said that your behavior demonstrates why not to trust doctors for anything other than the practice of medicine.
Your hypothesis was that properties in vaguely-defined areas you think are the hot spots are going under contract at a rate greater than other properties, G proved you wrong, and now you have some mealy-mouthed, sarcasm-quotes-laced rebuttal that basically suggests that the “smart” home buyer ignores the applicable data and just does what feels good in the moment. That’s bad advice, and I’m sure that all the people who ignored all the data for the last five years and did what felt good don’t feel very good right now.
The funny thing is, I think that we both have the same beliefs about the future of the market and where we are right now in the real estate depression cycle, but we arrive at those conclusions through completely different approaches, and both think the other is an idiot. I guess a stopped clock is still right twice a day, so say we both.
Also, G was nothing but civil, even after you called him a moron. You’re the one that needs to grow up and look at why your insecurities manifest themselves so viciously when anyone disagrees with you.
What I am seeing is that most of the sales in parts of the city other than Lincoln Park are mostly short sales or foreclosures, while Lincoln Parks sales are not.
My closing is going to very crowded with HD on my left, and Groove on my right. lol
“I said that your behavior demonstrates why not to trust doctors for anything other than the practice of medicine.”
DONT bring my profession into this – I don’t mention it so why do you keep doing so? Also, ALL of the money I have made has been in real estate over the past 15 years – and if you are that stupid to believe that it was easy, then I have to ask you why didn’t everyone else do it? However, you DO give me a lot to think about as I make my drive from my estate to my gold coast condo in my lamborghini (yeah, ask G or HD or all of the other people you “trust” and think they are so smart in real estate how much money they have made in the real estate market = just as I thought. So, JJJ just continue with your insults and idiotic banter with your internet friends. I’m sure it is very entertaining talking about crappy SFH or condos in terrible areas….. seriously, get a life.
“My closing is going to *be* very crowded with HD on my left, and Groove on my right”
so which shoulder am i? the devil or angel?
Just imagine the look on your father’s face when you tell him that you are brought to tears during game day traffic while driving home to your unlucky 13th floor apartment.
Icarus:
I’m on your left, groove is on your right, and the seller, instead of sitting at the table across from you, is situated directly behind you…
“Icarus: ccrd.info is the website. Its a bit nuanced to read the info. ”
Lol. Thanks for the tip bro.
Now can you explain how to negotiate the legal descriptions to look up the index and plat books in the basement? Or explain book form versus Torrens? Do that and you’d have my respect.
Icarus: sub-400’s; and it will eventually reach that point. There is no mortgage and plenty of room to negotiate; unfortunately, no mortgage also means plenty of time to ride the market down. They can’t just give the property away, you know?
The last thing I’ll say is that the villa/IP/OIP areas are poised to fall; I’ve been watching them for years. The cheap stuff has all been ‘snapped’ up – that’s where the demand is. There is very little demand at the higher end of the market. The higher has to drop to the current pricing. Is the area going to be slow for another 5 years, 10 years? How long? something will give, and it won’t be the buyers plunging in first….
“seriously, get a life”
Says the frequent posted on a Chicago real estate blog.
This should be a rental building. I can’t believe the city allows developers to build such a pos on such prime land. Someone should build something fabulous in front of it.
“Someone should build something fabulous in front of it.”
The original approval for the second tower lapsed and AI, after buying, tried to revive it, but got shot down. I doubt post-Daley will be any friendlier.
they should put new wrigley field in front of this thing
Icarus:
http://www.redfin.com/homes-for-sale#!lat=41.95462323989384&long=-87.72132396697998&market=chicago&sold_within_days=7&status=130&v=6&zoomLevel=16
Here’s what’s under contract in west walker. your property is more expensive than anything under contract
“Icarus: I’m on your left, groove is on your right, and the seller, instead of sitting at the table across from you, is situated directly behind you”
I dont know how i feel about this imaginary sequence i may need a few shrink sessions to help me through it where can i send the bill?
but at least i am on the right side because we all know it always leans/points left.
Can you do even do that, bro?
Have you ever tried to get a legal description changed? Ha! I’ve navigated that bureaucracy before, that’s something on my resume, including changing zoning, signage, variance hearings, code violations, buildings, fast track demos, and plenty of other various real estate related legal actions.
“Now can you explain how to negotiate the legal descriptions to look up the index and plat books in the basement? Or explain book form versus Torrens? Do that and you’d have my respect.”
“look up the index and plat books in the basement?”
Plats are available online. Searchable by address.
Here: https://gisapps.cityofchicago.org/kiosk/jsp/mpaddress.jsp?maptype=mapsplats_transonly
“Icarus: I’m on your left, groove is on your right, and the seller, instead of sitting at the table across from you, is situated directly behind you”
relax, i’m not purchasing a home in this price range even if i COULD afford it. My plan it buy a home such that the mortgage payment can be met by one income incase I lose my job and future-Mrs-icarus allows me to be a stay home dad
“Plats are available online. Searchable by address.”
Yes the plats themselves are, but the plat books are grantor / grantee information which was recorded by plat, not PIN. And you need the legal description to figure which book to pull and which lot to look for.
“Have you ever tried to get a legal description changed?”
Changed, no. Did someone get the direction vis a vis the third principal meridian wrong?
“Changed, no. Did someone get the direction vis a vis the third principal meridian wrong?” Basically – the width of the lot on a commercial property was too short in the description.
Woe… it’s been 10 years since I lived here! I rented right during the conversion – so I had a month to month lease (wasn’t sure about job situation and it was a nice bldg – for what I was paying & had a MTM lease). I paid 1200/mo + parking was like 200… seems high even now for a 1br in there… (Would have to get out my calculator for the ASM/Tax/morgate on a 1br) The bldg is infamous for its wacky floor plans but this floor plan looks a little more normal. Some of the 2-brs were normal. Invesco’s conversions were awful… they put granite counters on (i think for extra $), replaced the carpeting, baseboards, and replaced the front of the cabinets. That was about it…all done in 1 week or so. Appliances, lighting, plumbing & all that are blah – cheap. The 1 br I was living in was selling for something in the high 200s or 300s – I can’t remember…but way more than I could pay back then. Lots of people made money off of being the *initial* buyers into the conversion in 2000-2001… selling in 2005. Some lost money (including a friend of mine) but nothing like today…mostly the money lost was in realtor fees & closing costs…equity was stable in this bldg from 01-04 for many units…went up for a lot of units I seem to remember though I don’t have the data.
I met with the sales team once and WOW did they act like they were selling some African gold mine to you… geez…these people had drank & bathed in their own kool aid. And it WAS contagious – let me be honest… I did consider if I had that kind of money & if I should buy…if my parents could help…etc. In the end, I didn’t like the building or neighborhood enough…which I realized even more when I moved to old town…which I loved. So, not a fan of this area at all in retrospect. And, the building just isn’t that great…it has a crowded feeling – like too many units, low ceilings, 1 little entry door, a mazelike route to the garage…etc
Also, as someone mentioned, the cubs traffic is horrible… and that area of the city is very very congested. Going to the grocery store – from beginning to end (from my door back to my door – through the weird garage, the bad traffic, parking, etc…) took a minimum of an hour. The building doesn’t seem well-built…it’s far from a dump, but its just kinda like not special in any way. One plus is that the views are all pretty quiet for the most part, which is hard to get in the city. I don’t think I ever heard a siren, barking dog, whatever… which can be important to some people – but depends on the side you (mostly) face – since the units are all designed to face the lake – hence the wacky floor plans.
I am not even remotely surprised this place is having problems… 230 surprised me a little though. A lot of crappier 3 flats nearby (built in the 2000 era) with the same SF are selling in the 4s still (or just listed in the 4s…not sure about selling).
Wait – I just realized it says on here it was a conversion in 04-05… but really, I lived there in 2001 and they would not offer a year lease to anyone… and some units had already sold on paper (at least, this is what the last remaining leasing agent told me). I just double checked and conversion sales started in 12/2000 and seemed to run through 2003. So, it was a much earlier conversion than noted here.
And I found my old unit…and a comparable one selling today… low 300s for a 1br from them in 2001 – now around 140k. Damn.
Here’s some random 3660 trivia.
I wrote the offering brochure for the private placement that enabled the developer – Lou Silverman of Development Management Group (DMG) – to acquire and hold the land until he was ready to build.
When I was leaving the practice of law in 1979 Lou offered me the position of EVP of DMG. I declined, since Lou was a thoroughly disreputable and disagreeable sort.
An earlier commenter wondered how the city ever allowed this to be built. The building was, in fact, financed in large part ($60M, if memory serves) by a city bond issue. The terms of the bonds barred a condo conversion for an extended period (20 years?) and the building had a 20% low-income set-aside.
Lou-bashers, who were legion, spread rumors that Lou made the first mortgage payment on the building and never made another. The building went through a multi-year foreclosure proceeding.
Unpaid back-charges (DMG had a guy who was a genius at that) to the contractor, Mayfair Construction, on 3660 and another project in Streeterville, resulted in Mayfair’s bankruptcy. Prior to that it had long been one of the city’s largest contractors.
In late 1987 or thereabouts I wrote a two-page article on tenants who were organizing a rent strike in the building. Nearly a year after they’d moved in the gym, pool, etc. that was always opening a week or two after leases were signed was still in a state of total disarray, many months from completion. The promised “gourmet food court” which prospective renters were told nearly a year earlier was opening any day consisted of a Pepsi machine and a candy-bar machine. Etc. Etc. Etc.
As a courtesy to Lou I sent him a pre-publication copy of the article. He called me saying he was interested in purchasing a “major advertising contract.” I offered to schedule a breakfast the week after the article ran. He let loose a string of profanities and hung up.
One of my classmates at Jenner (my old law firm) called to make a half-hearted threat of litigation. I heard no more after reminding him that I knew a lot of things about Lou, had a lot of media contacts, and bought a lot of ink.
3660 was, at the time it was built, and probably still is, the tallest masonry structure in the world.
Now, back to my shilling.
“Typical. We have to live with these people. They will never change, this is the lesson young people reading this should learn.”
Maybe the tallest masonry residential building, but not the tallest masonry building (Philly city hall), and def not tallest masonry structure (chimney in montana).
Trump is notorious for not paying his suppliers/subs/vendors – he’s in everything to make his quick buck and screw over everyone else. This building at 3660 is awful for the neighborhood due to all the scams that occurred and now all the foreclosures. Sad story.
“You mean the bank has owned it for almost **TWO** years. f/c deed was April 2009.”
Yes- thank you! ha! ha!
I’m so used to it being a year that I didn’t even notice that it really is TWO years.
Why have they waited so long to list this one? Why wait as prices continue to drop? (as is evidenced by the list of other sales in this tier.)
“What is really interesting is that MOST of the properties in Lincoln Park featured on CC in the past 2 months are all under contract but the same is NOT true for properties in any other area …”
Here’s the actual statistics for the properties in Lincoln Park we’ve chattered about in Lincoln Park since Jan 1.
Still on the market: 8
Under contract: 9
Sold: 2
Off the market: 1
I remember that there was supposed to be another tower, a twin to this one, built on the lawn fronting LSD, but LSD residents did not want another tall building there- loss of sunlight, more congestion, etc.- and successfully blocked it.
It would be better for the area if there were residences, at least a low-rise building or townhouses, fronting on LSD, because the lawn is a big, blank, dark space to walk past at night.
Someone mentioned this being the “tallest residential masonry structure” in the city. Does this mean that the concrete frame of the building is not re-enforced? The Philadelphia City Hall the poster mentioned, as well as our own Monadnock Building at 53 W Jackson, are truly brick buildings, whose thick brick retaining walls are their only source of support. They are very exceptional. They are the only buildings of their heights supported by retaining walls rather than by steel or steel-re-enforced concrete beams, as true high-rises are. I doubt the New Yorker is supported by retaining walls, but just about has to be a steel-frame building, or at least steel-re-enforced concrete.
I wonder about the seismic re-enforcing of many of our tall buildings. We aren’t immune to quakes.
My partner and I moved into the New York Private Residences 2 years ago after relocating from West Hollywood, CA. We thoroughly researched the building’s history and understood its evolution from rental units to condos. We wanted to keep the price under $400,000 (we spent much less) and looked at dozens of properties in the area, including other high-rises, and nothing even came close to The New York. Other buildings and units appeared drab, dated and less efficient. We purchased a short-sale, 2br unit on an upper-30’s floor facing Montrose Harbor and absolutely love living here! Could we have gotten a better price if we had waited? Definitely. But at the time it was difficult to project what would happen with the economy and we knew we wanted to stay here.
Just a few of the good things about the New York: Very friendly staff. Building maintenance is excellent; they are always painting and cleaning. Elevators are really fast. Very quiet in units. Water pressure is great in shower and toilets. Nice landscaping and lobby arrangement. Two balconies. Excellent views from the unit! Roof-top sun deck and party room with spectacular views of downtown. Huge laundry room on third floor. Good private gym with pool in the building. Deli in the lobby. Bus stop right out front. Sure the units are “bland” when they’re unfinished, but that’s why you spend some money customizing the place to your taste, and ours looks awesome! The location is excellent! Lincoln Park across the street with a very nice 9-hole golf course, tennis courts, marinas, etc. Oh, did I mention the views? 🙂
I’m not an architect, but I do have a degree in graphic design and I think the building has a nice, clean, modern look with colors that fit nicely into the neighborhood. It’s certainly a more interesting design than those buildings in the area that were built in the 60’s and 70’s.
James & his “partner” from West Hollywood. LOL.
“We aren’t immune to quakes.”
We aren’t anywhere near a fault line. You should be more concerned about a meteorite hitting Lake Michigan causing a tidal wave.
Beg to differ Bob- I remember being awoken from my sleep in the middle of the night by our bed shaking. It was an earthquake downstate. Does anybody else remember it?
Bob, why is that “LOL?”
>James & his “partner” from West Hollywood. LOL.
Bob: Check out the new madrid fault.
Chicago has been affected by several minor quakes over the past few years. We are located in a fault zone whose epicenter is in the Ozarks.
LOL? Bob is a little like Beavis and Butthead.
James- CC is full of people who make pronouncements based purely on online pictures and prices. It’s nice to get the inside scoop.
ps-What homedelete said (which is not excusing it)
Several studies have projected that if an earthquake equal to that of 1812 were to occur on the New Madrid fault, St. Louis would be leveled and Chicago would take some severe damage. the New Madrid earthquake was felt strongly across Missouri, Illinois, Kentucky, and Tennessee and the aftershocks lasted for nearly a year. The quake changed the course of the Mississippi River, and caused the river to very briefly run backwards.
Chicago is located near the Wabash seismic zone, or Wabash fault, that communicates with the New Madrid fault. Many people in this city felt the smallish 4.3 that did some damage to buildings in the outer suburbs and was felt across the region. In 2008, there was a 5.2 about 120 miles east of St. Louis. Many geologists speculate that the Wabash Fault could produce a stronger earthquake than the New Madrid fault and there is no way we can say it couldn’t do its greatest damage here, because we are in that seismic zone and we got a little bit of damage and perceptible shaking from that 4.3. Earthquakes are very unpredictable and every time scientists think they have a workable theory about where these events happen and why, some unexpected event shatters their new paradigm.
“Bob: Check out the new madrid fault.”
The 1812 quake was among the worst in US history. If Memphis had been a city then- it would have been leveled. If was felt for thousands of miles.
Here’s what wikipedia says:
The zone remains active today. In recent decades minor earthquakes have continued.[6] New forecasts estimate a 7 to 10 percent chance, in the next 50 years, of a repeat of a major earthquake like those that occurred in 1811–1812, which likely had magnitudes of between 7.5 and 8.0. There is a 25 to 40 percent chance, in a 50-year time span, of a magnitude 6.0 or greater earthquake.[17]
Bob: “James & his “partner” from West Hollywood. LOL.”
Bob and his “him all by himself”. Fun to read what Bob’s next insensitive douchebag comment about people will be (not really). Usually people that are probably living happier lives in properties far nicer than Bob’s rental. And at times people taking a financial hit that is a bigger deal to Bob than the people selling. Here’s a suggestion — less cribchatter and more chatter with the girls – you may just improve your life and lessen your hostility. The deprivation is quite apparent.
“anonny on March 18th, 2011 at 8:50 am
Clio makes a good point.”
No, he doesn’t.
Overpaying for Lincoln Park doesn’t make you immune to market hazards. Old(!) Town is janky, and LP rents have tumbled, indicating a market decline.
LP isn’t some small conclave community like Hegewisch living in its own bubble. Even with all of the rental conversions back to SFH or even gone condo, you have current rents that have dropped and remain stagnant. And why?
Because the commercial corridors are weak. Commercial vacancy is high along Clark Street. Realtards can push Lincoln Park all they’d like to moronic buyers, but the neighborhood is by no means a gemstone and a safe bet at a high price point.
The money and momentum has rippled away north and west of ELP.
I recently trolled the old turf of my youth, the Lincoln Park- Lakeview retail district along Clark Street from Fullerton clear north to Belmont, and I am saddened by what has happened to it. I’m also saddened by how often the process that has killed it is repeated in “trendy” urban retail districts across the country.
Gone are many of the great little restaurants, boutiques and stores that were there in the 80s. The area feels dead and dull, and you get the storefronts look tatty and sad.
Could this have happened because the commercial landlords just got too greedy and killed their golden geese, the business owners who need for their rents to stay somewhat level to remain in business? Friends of mine have owned businesses there over the years, and each one in turn has been destroyed by escalating rents for spaces the landlord refuses to improve or even maintain decently. You CANNOT triple a commercial tenant’s rent and expect her to stay in business- business owners budget very tightly because baseline costs are very high to begin with, just to be in business. What do commercial landlords expect when they double and triple rents? That just because a commercial tenant do whatever he can to avoid a costly and disruptive move, that you can gouge him infinitely?
WHO CARES – CAN’T YOU KEEP IT TO REAL ESTATE OR MACROECONOMICS? JESUS WE GET IT – YOU DON’T LIKE ANYONE WHO ISN’T LIKE YOURSELF. GET OVER IT. SO WHAT, MOVE ON AND STICK TO THE TOPIC FOR GOODNESS SAKES.
“#Dan on March 20th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
LOL! Nice rant, Jon. I’m sure you’re just as outraged at “insensitive behavior” when it’s directed at rednicks or suburbanites on this website, etc. Studies show homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from a psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see higher rates of suicide, STDs, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse.
“Bob and his “him all by himself”. Fun to read what Bob’s next insensitive douchebag comment about people will be (not really). Usually people that are probably living happier lives in properties far nicer than Bob’s rental. And at times people taking a financial hit that is a bigger deal to Bob than the people selling. Here’s a suggestion — less cribchatter and more chatter with the girls – you may just improve your life and lessen your hostility. The deprivation is quite apparent.”
“
SERIOUSLY, it has nothing to do with intolerance or insensitive behavior. You sound like a god damn broken record. The annoying drunk guy at the party. the anti-social loser who can’t fit in. I mean really, this has gone beyond politics, you’re just fracking annoying. Not your views, just you and your CONSTANT repetition of the same idiotic view point. I’d rather listen to clio all day pimping real estate on a real estate board than listen to Dan express venom at those different than him (whatever he is) on a real estate board. I know my sthick is a little old (doom & gloom) but jesus, it’s at least related to real estate. If i wanted to talk your ridiculous politics, I’d take it to a friendlier forum. Seriously, stay if you want, but stick to the topic.
“Could this have happened because the commercial landlords just got too greedy and killed their golden geese, the business owners who need for their rents to stay somewhat level to remain in business?”
Well- we did have a little thing called a “great recession” that knocked out most small businesses- especially retailers and restaurants.
But the rents also had escalated along some trendy areas where beauty salons, clothing retailers etc. just couldn’t make it anymore.
I was recently walking down Wells in Old Town and was shocked by the empty storefronts. There is a whole block full of emptiness just south of North Avenue. What happened? When will it come back? Wow.
Yes, Sabrina, the deterioration of the LP business district set in before the recession.
The property taxes don’t help. Landlords are often forced to raise rents, recession or no, just to keep up with property tax increases. Friend of mine charges his commercial tenants for property taxes separately, which many other commercial landlords are doing.
Wouldn’t a standard Chicago commercial real estate lease be triple net?
Prime corners were bid up to a level such that only banks could afford the rents, and now we know why they were paying so much – funny money. In the burbs, there were only 2 uses for top corner land site, banks or Walgreens, they could even outbid the gas stations.
HD: you need to chill-out…
“But the rents also had escalated along some trendy areas where beauty salons, clothing retailers etc. just couldn’t make it anymore.”
I’m not sure there IS such a thing as a standard Chicago commercial lease. Every one that I’ve seen is different, and there are none of the protections for a lessee such as those a residential tenant has under the Chicago Landlord/Tenant ordinance. You are completely on your own when you negotiate a commercial lease, and many inexperienced and naive little entrepreneurs sign themselves into nasty traps that end up destroying their businesses before they even get them off the ground. Many of these boutique owners and other small business owners don’t read their leases thoroughly and usually don’t really understand them even when they do.
What I find baffling is that commercial landlords will let prime frontage stand empty for years rather than drop the rents to meet the local market. Does this pay?
And it’s difficult to get these people to even talk to you when you are looking for space. Was helping a friend who owned a boutique (now defunct) who needed to move because her landlord had just hiked her rent steeply. We looked at many spaces in the Belmont/Clark/Diversey, most of which were deeply substandard and would take big bucks to make suitable, and were very expensive. Yet the landlords, who were mostly small landlords who owned perhaps two or three small commercial properties, were difficult to reach and even more difficult to deal with when you did reach them.
There are many nasty surprises awaiting people who start retail businesses in these “hot” commercial districts, and one of them is how much difference in your traffic even a block can make. For example, many business owners think that space in retail districts like Southport Ave or Andersonville is worth walking barefoot over broken glass for, and they sign on to unbelievably high rents and ridiculous terms while having hallucinations about all the loose money that will surely be walking into their stores and falling into the cash register on a daily basis. It’s too late to correct the mistake when they discover that you don’t want to be to far north or south in Andersonville, or too far from the el tracks on Southport, or that the block that has the most booming restaurants is the worst block you could have located your women’s boutique in.
And THEN they finally actually READ their leases, and they are shocked at what they signed up for.
I dunno, I think that sounds to me like an owner of real estate maximizing profit. I am not too familiar with the Chicago small commercial real estate market to me (and probably double net is more likely), but it probably pays to hold out for a tenant that can sign a long-term lease instead of a first time business-owner trying his or her hand at running a boutique. And yes, people should read their leases.
And I would like to differentiate what Dave M said vs. someone like Sam (of Ask Sam ads) who actually uses their status as a marketing strategy to appeal to a certain segment.
“I’m not sure there IS such a thing as a standard Chicago commercial lease.”
Most landlords have their own lease forms and tenants will always be forced to use/negotiate it. The only exceptions are credit-tenant (i.e. national) retailers who have the upper hand.
To respond to Laura L.
It is sad that these commercial landlords are resorting to 100-200% rent increases to drive out long-time boutique tenants. It doesn’t make sense at all to me.
Bob- you convoluted explanations say a lot about you.
dahliachi: “sticks and stones will break my bones, but names …..” nyah, nyah!!
“Friend of mine charges his commercial tenants for property taxes separately, which many other commercial landlords are doing.”
“Wouldn’t a standard Chicago commercial real estate lease be triple net?”
A “standard” commercial leas *anywhere* is triple net. There are many, many circumstances where gross rent might make sense, but the closest thing to standard is triple net. Most commercial tenants pay taxes in addition to asking rent.
The empty stores on Clark Street, north of Fullerton and south of Diversey, are not only related to the recession. Churning of these stores has been happening for years and the cause has been documented many times.
We have an absentee landlord, living in California, who owns a lot of commercial property on Clark itself and also on the side-streets. Apparently he didn’t even buy the property himself, but inherited it. He hoists the rents sky high, so that eventually the small businesses call it quits. This doesn’t trouble him, according to people in the neighborhood, because it is advantageous to him in tax terms to show losses. In boom times hope springs eternal and he can find businesses to pay the outrageous rents but in the current climate the stores sit empty. What we should be asking is why tax law rewards this practice.
The landlords think they can get away with burning you on your lease renewal because first of all, they HAVE you, and they know how difficult and disruptive it is to move a retail business. Second, all the little boutiques in a fully-occupied retail district give the appearance of a “hot” neighborhood and so the landlord believes he can quickly score another tenant if you move or fold.
So three or four tenants move out, and the whole ground floor sits vacant because the landlords think they have this “hot” property that should rent for $50 a square foot. Oftentimes, the whole street has to be studded with vacancies before the landlords figure out that they’ve killed the district by overcharging for rent and making profits impossible for their tenants. Then, they at last drop the rents, but by then the district is dead, a complete dud. This happened to Lincoln Ave & Ashland, which was the deadest, emptiest place on the north lake front until its revival in the late 90s and forward. It’s happening to Lincoln Park along Clark now, and it will probably happen to Andersonville and Lincoln Square at some point, unless landlords are very alert to signs of a deteriorating rental market.
“val on March 21st, 2011 at 10:55 am
The empty stores on Clark Street, north of Fullerton and south of Diversey, are not only related to the recession. Churning of these stores has been happening for years and the cause has been documented many times.”
It’s not just landlords or landlords’ faults, though. Clark on this stretch is subject to what you call “dead blocks” due to zoning and what is naturally there.
For example, the mix of Best Buy/Sunrise and McDonald’s/USPS really kills the stretch just north of Wrightwood to Diversey. Everything north of Wrightwood to Diversey suffers.
Granted, south of there isn’t much better, considering a lof of the buildings are off-set businesses and not true street-front accessible spaces.
The fly in the ointment is that big box is not happening on the east side and a lot of places are directly zoned for it. And those that aren’t? Well, just look at the Clark/Belden complex that tumbled since the loss of Tower and Express.
I agree that landlords hold out for high rents (just as some residential owners highlighted on CC have insane asking prices) but a lot of blocks are dead because of specific block location and/or some “permanent fixtures” (i.e., USPS; Sunrise) that Laura attested to.
“Laura Louzader on March 21st, 2011 at 4:21 pm
The landlords think they can get away with burning you on your lease renewal because first of all, they HAVE you, and they know how difficult and disruptive it is to move a retail business. Second, all the little boutiques in a fully-occupied retail district give the appearance of a “hot” neighborhood and so the landlord believes he can quickly score another tenant if you move or fold.”
OTOH, I completely agree with this. Great comment, Laura.
Val, your tax question is not really that straightforward, but it doesn’t sound like you have a good idea of what the landlord is likely doing. It sounds like such a landlord would find taking depreciation advantageous and doesn’t feel like he or she NEEDS to get a tenant in there to survive – he or she would rather hold out for a tenant who can enter into a ten year lease at a high rate.
I guess that I feel bad as well that some people who have boutiques are mad that landlords won’t rent to them at lower rents, but that’s how capitalism works. I have found that a lot of boutiques and retail start-ups have lots of ideas about how things should be and not that many ideas about how to deal with how things are.