Get 3-Bedrooms in Southport for Under $390K: 1400 W. Byron
This 3-bedroom unit at 1400 W. Byron in the Southport neighborhood of Lakeview has been on and off the market since July 2008.
In that time, it has been reduced $49,500.
The unit is also now listed for $5,000 under the 2003 purchase price.
It appears that the unit is entirely on one floor and has 3 exposures, including south.
The kitchen has granite counter tops and 42 inch maple cabinets and white appliances.
The master bath is marble with a double vanity.
Built in 1999, it has central air, in-unit washer/dryer and parking is included.
Is this a deal for the location?
Dana DiPasquale at @Properties has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #1E: 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, no square footage listed
- Sold in February 1999 for $245,000
- Sold in April 2003 for $390,000
- Originally listed in July 2008 for $434,500
- Reduced
- Withdrawn in November 2009 at $429,500
- Currently listed at $385,000
- Assessments of $130 a month
- Taxes of $4395
- Central Air
- In-unit washer/dryer
- Bedroom #1: 14×14
- Bedroom #2: 12×10
- Bedroom #3: 12×10
- Living room: 29×18
- Kitchen: 15×10
let me be the first to say kudos to the 2003 seller.
nothing fantastic but this seems like a good price today. is this below grade? some of the windows seem a little high.
also wonder about the health of the association with the low assessments, and many of your neighbors are probably underwater. cinder block?
redfin has the 2003 price as $260k.
$330 selling price and it will sell for less than that in 2017 when the new purchaser tries to resell.
HD: A big Keanu “Woah” to the thought that the year 2017 is now in the realm of short to mid term planning.
“redfin has the 2003 price as $260k.”
You cannot always rely on Redfin’s prior prices. It’s only as good as the PIN number that is entered. I would estimate Redfin is correct only about 80% of the time. (which is better than nothing- if you’re not going to bother to investigate the property yourself.)
Homedelete,
You seem to be negative on every “Deal” here on CC… do you think the entire market is heading down? Is this not the time to buy property, or are there only select areas which are good for buying?
Currently, the is probably the right price for a SoPoor-DisinteBlock-McFartBox.
“You cannot always rely on Redfin’s prior prices. It’s only as good as the PIN number that is entered. I would estimate Redfin is correct only about 80% of the time. (which is better than nothing- if you’re not going to bother to investigate the property yourself.)”
didnt know that. thanks sabrina.
Yes the market is going down. It has been for months now. Anecdotally, go to the 60 mins website and watch the stories about homeless childrendue to the housing bust. The story bought tears to my eyes. The reporter noted that children who grew up during the great depression formed spending habits that lasted their entire lives. If you think housing is going to go up anytime soon … well then place your bets accordingly. I, like most people, have random extended family members who have been living in a foreclosure without paying for years. In good areas of cook county too. Most of my fforeclosure clients haven’t paid in years
He guy who designed the case shiller index thinks the market could tank another 25%
Therefore it must be a great time to buy real estate right? When everyone is selling?
“cinder block?”
Looks like there may be a bit in its make-up (see patches on the south- and east-facing exterior), but nothing like an entire side full of the stuff. Unless someone performed some paint magic.
Looks to me like this is the worst half of a duplex down.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7358670n
Hard times generation: homeless kids
March 6, 2011 5:00 PM
For some children, socializing and learning are being cruelly complicated by homelessness, as Scott Pelley reports from Florida, where school buses now stop at motels for children who’ve lost their homes.
Executed Recorded Document Type Amount
04/29/2003 05/20/2003 MORTGAGE $311,604.00
Executed Recorded Document Type Amount
04/29/2003 05/20/2003 MORTGAGE $58,425.00
Executed Recorded Document Type Amount
04/29/2003 05/20/2003 WARRANTY DEED $390,000.00
HD,
From what I have read, by the middle of the year, 75% of the markets should hit bottom, with the other 25% by the end of the year. Obviously, no one knows for sure. But you’d have to like those odds. The other thing to note is the unemployment rate is declining, and overall the economy seems to be picking up. I’d say it isn’t the ‘perfect’ time to buy a house, but it seems to be getting pretty close to the bottom. Just like the stock market, you can’t predict the top and bottom, but you can be damn sure that getting in now, you are near the bottom and should be able to make a profit going forward…
“We all hear about the recovery – that the recession ended in 2009 – but some things are getting worse before they get better. And child poverty is one of them.
America’s motel generation is growing fast.
Like the kids who came out of the Great Depression, this generation is being shaped by homelessness and hunger but also by memories of neighbors who opened their homes, and of families that refused to be broken.”
ETA, I’m not attacking you BTW, I’m only trying to have rational discussion on the topic. I am looking to purchase something in the short term, preferrably a foreclosure. You seem to be knowledgable and have insight into these things. Thanks.
Garden Unit = FAIL!
What is the significance of the statement in this property’s description which says: “Developers can’t build this space anymore”?
Not only is it a garden unit, the unit is the East side of the building. The length of which runs parallel to Southport. Nothing like hearing people walk by every single one of your bedroom windows day and night.
1999: What you’ve read is wrong. Use your own judgment.
Look at foreclosure stats (increasing), delinquencies (only slightly decreasing), unemployment (slowly abating ONLY because people are dropping out of the work force – Gallup Poll says unemployment the same as a year ago), shadow inventory (increasing), foreclosure sales should be increasing but are now (slowing down due to MERS and robosigner issues), wages (going down), oil prices (going up!), lending (has returned to pre-bubble standards), interest rates (headed up!), Mortgage applications are still going down (at 1997 levels http://cr4re.com/charts/charts.html?Existing-Home#category=Existing-Home&chart=MBAMar2.jpg), new home sales in 2010 was the worst on record…
The list goes on and on and on….after the indicators start to turn around, give it a few years to work through the shadow inventory.
Recorded amounts from 2003 really are worthless, come on.
Nothing special about this place but the price isn’t high enough to require special, either. It does appear to be a “garden unit” – which I would expect explains the market and the pricing for it.
If it weren’t in the basement, I would expect that it would sell soon for a good bit higher than where it is priced right now. The space is nice enough and big enough for the area that it should be a quick sell. Given the fact that the unit is partially below grade, I’ll say $365k gets it done if the sellers will take that.
Ouch, I thought it was a good deal until I saw it was a garden. Living in a basement with two kids, bubbalicious! I’m sure they thought it was a good idea at the time, they didn’t want to be priced out forever!
There are some ‘deals’ out there but there is stiff competition for them. They go fast and often are often sold to insiders. The lower end of the market is hot especially among investors doing cash deals. I’ve even seen some investors buying, renovating, and then holding, presumably until the market gets better – there is a 75% chance the bottom is in, right?
Here’s the story I told last week. I’ll tell it again b/c it is easy to understand and underscores the monumental mess were are in.
In the spring of 2010, after two recent so called ‘life events’ I inquired about purchasing a short sale. I liked the house, my other half did not (so that was the end of that deal!), but regardless, the house as listed for $315,000 (after coming down from the $400,000). The other half and I did a ccrd search of the neighbor directly to the north, which is similar to the short sale I was looking at, you know, just to get a sense of what the neighbors were like. They bought their house in the mid-1990’s in the $100,000s, presumably outdated and in fair condition. Over the years they serially refinanced until they owed $650,000. I said, “The house next door is a foreclosure waiting to happen.” The short sale i looked at sold in July 2010 for $290,000.
Last week (or maybe the week before) the house next door listed as a short sale for $299,000. It is a similar home but more recently rehabbed and has more curb appeal. Now as everyone can surmised, the new short sale will sell for less than the july 2010 short sale….and so on and so on. it’s a downward spiral and to say that there is a 75% chance the bottom is in is patently absurd.
See my point? what if two years from now the guy across the street puts up his short sale for $225,000 to undercut everyone else? The two other short sales have now lost significant equity, equity and I cannot afford to lose if I want to put my children through college, retire, or save for the future.
“#1999 on March 7th, 2011 at 9:10 am
ETA, I’m not attacking you BTW, I’m only trying to have rational discussion on the topic. I am looking to purchase something in the short term, preferrably a foreclosure. You seem to be knowledgable and have insight into these things. Thanks.”
Also mortgages are expected to be harder to come by, rumors that the 30 year fixed rate will go the way of the dodo and the mortgage deduction might become extinct!
Happy Pulaski Day Cribbers 😀
LOL what happend HD you knock your SO up and get an inheritance?
HD,
You’ve repeated Shiller’s statement in many threads, but always left off an important specification. He said he’s worried housing prices might fall another 15-25% *in real terms* and references possible effects of oil shocks, food/land speculation, etc
hd, why would you even consider buying real estate if you think that the sort of post-apocalyptic situations you’re talking about are likely?
Well the first life event was that I moved out of my studio in Uptown to a one bedroom in Old Irving, and the second life event was that after 7 years of being an unemployed graduate from a 4th tier law school, I found employment. So here I am. Two significant life events. Moving and employment.
“#Happy Pulaski Day Cribbers 😀
#
Sonies on March 7th, 2011 at 9:31 am
LOL what happend HD you knock your SO up and get an inheritance?”
If I were in my 30’s at any time during the last 100 years other than now I would already own a home.
However, when I reached home buying age, I had to suffer through bubble (and receive constant scorn as a renter); and now that the bubble has burst, I am *surviving* the great recession.
As I always say, I didn’t create the situation, I’m just living through it and trying to make the best of it.
“#JJJ on March 7th, 2011 at 9:36 am
hd, why would you even consider buying real estate if you think that the sort of post-apocalyptic situations you’re talking about are likely?”
So what is everyone suggesting, rent?
My situation: I commute 1:30 each way to the city for work. My place in the far burbs has fallen 45% from my purchase price. I have the capital to move, but can’t sell my place at this time. I plan to keep it and rent it out. I want to get a cheap short sale or foreclosure in the city to lessen the commute burden, and hope to ride out the bottom and into the beginning of the upswing. At that time, I would sell the short sale in the city, and buy the house my SO wants in the nearby burbs.
My dilemna: Do I buy the cheaper (300k) house in the burbs now, or wait 3-5 years and get the (450k) house? Do I buy the condo in the city, and then have that to sell when I buy the house in 3-5 years? Do I do neither, and just deal with the hellish commute for a few more year and see what changes?
What it comes down to is, I am looking for a ~100k place in the city, with hopes of turning a smallish profit (or at least offsetting my cost of owning) for the next 2-3 years. Ideally that means I would find a foreclosure or short sale that is priced so far below market value that I *should* be able to get out for AT LEAST the same amount in 2-3 years. Preferrably turn a small ~10% profit and call it a day. Is this reasonable? Advice?
jjj: the ‘post-apocalyptic situations’ aren’t just likely, they’re happening *right now*! All you need to do is spend 20 minutes a day reading handful of economic news sites and blogs.
Things will improve, somewhere down the line, but it’s going to take a while.
@1999 it might be “easier” to find someone who lives in the city and wants to live in your suburb and swap homes.
roma: i doubt inflation in the short or near term will be 15% or 25% for there to be a substantial difference between the real and nominal housing price
hd, I applaud you for sharing personal information here and for trying to decide what you think it right for you and your family. I’m sorry that you were unemployed for so long and I’m glad that you recently found a job. However, don’t you think that your situation (in particular the scorn that you felt as an unemployed renter during that period) might be coloring your view of the world a little?
1999 – you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. The least bitter situation would be to sell the house in the exurbs (and take the loss), rent for a couple of years, and then in a couple more years reassess the economic and housing market. Children, however, would complicate things b/c schools and such. The worst decision, IMHO, is to double down on real estate and buy another place (even if it is a foreclosure). Then you’ll be stuck with two declining assets. You don’t want to look back 25 years from now and say “wow I made some really bad real estate decisions in 2011.” The middle of the road option (where I generally travel) would be to sell the current house at a loss, buy a new home in a closer in suburb – but make sure it’s a ‘deal’ and you’re going to be there for a while, because if you overpay today you will again lose money in the future. The best properties are scarce (At the moment) and have stiff competition for price. You may need to sacrifice.
“Ideally that means I would find a foreclosure or short sale that is priced so far below market value that I *should* be able to get out for AT LEAST the same amount in 2-3 years.”
Too many people are looking for this same thing (if it even exists). If you are hesitating, you probably aren’t ready to move fast enough to get this kind of property.
The only thing that I have seen (in my somewhat limited search) that was dramatically below market was this rowhouse in Bucktown (fairly close to the recently chatted about house with coach house). I set up an appointment to see it and the realtor was a no show. It was under contract a few days later.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2341-W-Altgeld-St-60647/home/12585067
jjj – it’s a joke. I don’t really live in a studio in uptown nor am I unemployed. I can’t tell too much about myself bc I don’t want to out myself but the truth is I’m a 10+ practicing attorney working for mid-size firm that dabbles in some of the foreclosure mess. I currently rent on the NW side. like I said, when I came of age to buy, there was a bubble, and then it burst, and now I’m just trying to survive. My landscape is littered with the failed and the decimated dabbled in ‘real estate’ as owners or investors so of course I’m cautious. it’s the same reason why most doctors don’t smoke.
10+ year, sorry.
“I had to suffer through bubble (and receive constant scorn as a renter)”
just curious, from who?
“My situation: I commute 1:30 each way to the city for work. My place in the far burbs has fallen 45% from my purchase price.”
That sucks, i’d just stop paying and try to call the bank and give em back your note, it will take 20+ years before you recover that loss on a place in the exurbs. Being a landlord, especially so far away sucks.
You also won’t find a plce in the city for under 100k, unless you enjoy 1 bedroom crappy apartments in subpar neighborhoods, likely still far from the loop.
I will admit however my view is jaded for the same reason doctors don’t really smoke, drug dealers don’t use their own product, bankruptcy attorneys pay off their credit cards every month and ER nurses won’t let their children own motorcycles. you see what happens and it jades your view and that’s not necessarily bad.
I’ve recently seen places in this area actually raise their listing price. What is going on with this?
Any suggestions the best place to search for REO and foreclosures? I would be looking around the BNSF corridor (Downers, Lisle, Westmont, Hinsdale).
Thanks for the comments.
“rumors that the 30 year fixed rate will go the way of the dodo and the mortgage deduction might become extinct!”
There are rumors that the USD will collapse horribly this year and it will be the End of America, too, so we shouldn’t put too much stock in rumors.
I do expect, sometime within the decade, (1) a further limitation on the mortgage interest deduction, but not a total elimination, and (2) a bigger spread b/t shorter term and 30-year fixed mortgages–most of the world makes do with ARMs, so there is no real reason for it not to be good enough here, too.
ARMS might not be a bad thing if we stay at ZIRP indefinitely.
HD: “I don’t really live in a studio in uptown nor am I unemployed.”
Yeah, you’ve upgraded to squatting in a 2/2 in Rogers Park, and you’ve always had that valet parking job, so you were never “unemployed” tho you were underemployed for a while.
Sonies: “just curious, from who?”
Basically everyone he knows, which must have a lot of overlap with Bob’s “friends”/family, as he’s described the same scorn. I’ve never heard anyone (other than a realtor/builder/investor) say anything of the sort to anyone, so I guess they both know the sorts of people who inspire letters to advice columnists.
“just curious, from who?”
Family, friends, other attorneys, realtors, mortgage brokers, neighbors, friends who bought. Lots of people. I know someone who bought (and later got divorced) who said in 2005 “my husband and I said that if we were going buy we should buy now before the city got too expensive.”
How is that an example of constant scorn being directed at you? Sounds like people just being stupid and parroting realtor-speak.
“just curious, from who?”
I’m a renter as some of you know. I really have heard little commentary from people on this and nothing I can remember in the way of scorn. Just “have you thought about buying” or “with a kid you might want to think about being settled” (which I agree with). Maybe someone has said “aren’t you throwing away money by renting” but I doubt I engaged them on it.
“Maybe someone has said “aren’t you throwing away money by renting” but I doubt I engaged them on it.”
DZ: “Probably less than you are on a depreciating asset.”
My real estate mantra: you’ve got to live somewhere, and you’ve only got one life. Whether you rent or buy, to the extent your finances permit, try to live in a place that will do the most to enhance your quality of life.
It all comes down to how you wish to spend your non-working, waking hours. If welding, glass blowing, wood-working, etc. are your passion, try to get a place with a yard, garage or other space to accommodate such activity. If nothing pleases you more than hosting get-togethers that require lots space and/or a large dining area, then the location of the home can be secondary to its size (and perhaps quality of appliances if you’re really hardcore in the kitchen). If you have a physical need or preference to avoid stairs, live in a place with an elevator. If you like being outdoors – walking, running and/or playing with your kids (yes, pretty much all year round, even in Chicago) – then try to live no farther than a couple of blocks from the park/lakefront. If going out partying at night is most important to you, then live within walking distance to your favorite haunts.
Obviously, buying a place for its proximity to a party zone might not be the most prudent course of action. But assuming that (i) you have a downpayment and (ii) do not anticipate being forced to relocate to another state for work in the near future, if you are able to find a place that does wonders for your non-working, waking hours, and can buy it for roughly the same monthly outlay as a comparable rental, then buy. Otherwise, rent.
well said annony, life is too short to be totally responsible with your money. You have to have fun and take risk once in a while, and for some of us we can appreciate having a nice place to live if we can make the monthly payments no problem and not have to worry about moving or slumming it in a sheisty 80’s rental.
I don’t mark to market my net worth every day because its totally stupid and irrelevant unless I need the money right then. I do budget my cash flow every day however, and I do really enjoy the place that I live for its conveinence to things that are important to me and low maintenance.
Prior comment “See my point? what if two years from now the guy across the street puts up his short sale for $225,000 to undercut everyone else? The two other short sales have now lost significant equity, equity and I cannot afford to lose if I want to put my children through college, retire, or save for the future.”
But renting a three bedroom apartment often costs as much as buying one at $299K. Yes, you may have lost equity if your neighbor sells for $225K but its still less expensive than renting and you have more control over the property. This is the perfect case of comparing rent vs. own.
Renting a 3bed apartment in a neighborhood with $299,000 short sales is cheaper than buying, I assure you.
But primary difference is that I can choose to walk away from a lease after a year whereas walking away from a mortgage has far more signficant consequences.
“But renting a three bedroom apartment often costs as much as buying one at $299K. Yes, you may have lost equity if your neighbor sells for $225K but its still less expensive than renting and you have more control over the property. This is the perfect case of comparing rent vs. own.”
“But renting a three bedroom apartment often costs as much as buying one at $299K.”
Okay, they cost the same on an annual cashflow basis? Both cost about $36,000 in total, annual costs, net of tax benefits? Fine.
“Yes, you may have lost equity if your neighbor sells for $225K but its still less expensive than renting and you have more control over the property. ”
If the above is true, is the control over the property really worth $75,000 over the time that one lives in it? Sure, anyone with any sense ignores the comps unless they are looking to refi or sell, but if you do need to sell for any reason–and if your time line is 2-3 years, you’re looking to sell basically as soon as you’ve settled in–then you’ve sunk an extra $75k into your living expense.
Who’s paying $3,000 a month for a 3 bedroom rental on the NW side? Maybe in LP it’s that price, but there are decent units even there for less.
“Who’s paying $3,000 a month for a 3 bedroom rental on the NW side? Maybe in LP it’s that price, but there are decent units even there for less.”
It was a made up number, just to put something out there. That you attack the rental cost, but not the ownership cost, is one (very small) bit of evidence that the two are not actually cost-neutral.
Ever notice that nobody talks about golf anymore?
“It all comes down to how you wish to spend your non-working, waking hours. If welding, glass blowing, wood-working, etc. are your passion, try to get a place with a yard, garage or other space to accommodate such activity. If nothing pleases you more than hosting get-togethers that require lots space and/or a large dining area, then the location of the home can be secondary to its size (and perhaps quality of appliances if you’re really hardcore in the kitchen). If you have a physical need or preference to avoid stairs, live in a place with an elevator. If you like being outdoors – walking, running and/or playing with your kids (yes, pretty much all year round, even in Chicago) – then try to live no farther than a couple of blocks from the park/lakefront. If going out partying at night is most important to you, then live within walking distance to your favorite haunts.”
“But renting a three bedroom apartment often costs as much as buying one at $299K.”
Definitely not the case in my bubblelicious hood (sloop).
The old gray hag is hip to all things declining:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/nyregion/21golf.html?pagewanted=all
More Americans Are Giving Up Golf
By PAUL VITELLO
Published: February 21, 2008
HAUPPAUGE, N.Y. — The men gathered in a new golf clubhouse here a couple of weeks ago circled the problem from every angle, like caddies lining up a shot out of the rough.
“We have to change our mentality,” said Richard Rocchio, a public relations consultant.
“The problem is time,” offered Walter Hurney, a real estate developer. “There just isn’t enough time. Men won’t spend a whole day away from their family anymore.”
William A. Gatz, owner of the Long Island National Golf Club in Riverhead, said the problem was fundamental economics: too much supply, not enough demand.
The problem was not a game of golf. It was the game of golf itself.
Over the past decade, the leisure activity most closely associated with corporate success in America has been in a kind of recession.
…………………………..
You also need to factor in property taxes. What a drain on society overall. They will only go up.
Dan, I totally noticed that! Maybe its that I don’t talk to my lame friends that flocked to the burbs much anymore or maybe the poser wealthy finally coming to grips they can’t afford to blow 200+ bucks a week on something as stupid as golf (because they can’t run up credit card debt or heloc the house like they used to)? That hobby has become insanely expensive, and I haven’t done much golfing since I was a teenager long long ago.
The public and private courses must be hurting a lot, with the decline in play. The price of golf went up much faster than inflation as well. Who is paying the $100,000 initiation fees now that companies are no longer doing so? Who is paying the $125 plus a cart for the suburban courses. I guess I am stuck playing on awful municipal courses now, playing in 5 and a half hours. Pure insanity.
The real (unspoken) decline behind golf is that the number of men eligible for the ‘Good Ole’ Boys Network’ has shrunk.
On the bright side, the good old boys network has taken up Lacrosse, which is the fastest growing sport in the country.
http://blog.fortiusone.com/2008/01/24/lacrosse-the-fastest-growing-sport-in-the-country/
“I’m a 10+ practicing attorney working for mid-size firm that dabbles in some of the foreclosure mess. I currently rent on the NW side. like I said, when I came of age to buy, there was a bubble, and then it burst, and now I’m just trying to survive.”
What do you mean, you’re “just trying to survive”? Has the popping of the real estate bubble affected your practice that much?
To briefly return to the property:)
These people, in all likliehood, do not *need* to move, even if, as it seems, they have two kids. This is a large place, with three bedrooms, in a good neighbhorhood. People are spoiled: they think they *deserve* more space once they have kids or whatever. My grandparents did not ever live a place as nice as this nice–and they lived happy and full lives.
If they want to get their money back, they are stuck–as we have all been suggesting. But in this case, I think they should just * “love the one they are with.”
It’s a affected nearly everyone in the profession. Banks and clients cut fees – aggressively. And put fee caps on files. If you don’t accept the ‘new’ arrangement then they’ll send files to other firms who will do it cheaper. Yes it is that competitive.
Other clients go BK or just don’t pay, or pay late and expect a discount. Volume is down across the board. Far fewer commercial and residential sales transactions. And the ones that do go through require far more work for less money. Insurance companies who pay, whether as a Plaintiff or Defendantt, are as cut throat as ever, and don’t like to pay much of anything. Small businesses that we represent have been hurting, hurting bad. Down sizes occurred across many industries. Real estate litigation is way down too – who wants to fight over a property that is mortgaged to the hilt?
It goes on and on. Anecdotal, I know someone who was a member of a 2006 or 2007 biglaw class (and works elsewhere now at a much smaller firm) and said that 3/4rds of her class was laid off between 2008-2009, and they still talk somewhat regularly, and only roughly 20% of those laid off have found new work. Imagine going from $125,000 a year to nothing…and being unable to replace that income, forever.
LIke I said, I”m surviving, bonuses are down, way down, raises are MIA, and the areas of the firm that are busy are merely offsetting areas that are hurting.
But I really should spend less time here, and more time working…I’m out!
“#JJJ on March 7th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
“I’m a 10+ practicing attorney working for mid-size firm that dabbles in some of the foreclosure mess. I currently rent on the NW side. like I said, when I came of age to buy, there was a bubble, and then it burst, and now I’m just trying to survive.”
What do you mean, you’re “just trying to survive”? Has the popping of the real estate bubble affected your practice that much?”
If I were a golfer (i.e., not one who golfs, but a devout player), I would not live in Chicago. There are many places in this country where one’s office or place of business can be just a quick jaunt to a great golf course and back.
Wrong on both accounts. Easy access plays a big role in addiction. Knowledge unfortunately plays a less significant role.
BTW, a side interesting fact is that doctors are among the largest class of substance abusers. You would be surprised how many of them self medicate.
“I will admit however my view is jaded for the same reason doctors don’t really smoke, drug dealers don’t use their own product”
“If I were a golfer (i.e., not one who golfs, but a devout player), I would not live in Chicago. There are many places in this country where one’s office or place of business can be just a quick jaunt to a great golf course and back.”
Yeah, two of them are Oak Brook and Lake Forest. The ‘burbs have tons of good and great courses, all over the place. The difficulty comes from living and working in the city, which makes all of those places relatively far away.
The bigger problem is the extremely short playing season and modern business life. Hence the existence of Florida and Arizona, where one can play almost every day. And the problem created by mobile phones and blackberries, meaning that, even on the golf course, one is expected to be available, which reduces a key aspect of the (hd-coined) GOBN’s attraction to golf–escape from the entanglements of work and family.
I wish I could take credit, but credit is due to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_ol%27_boy_network
“I wish I could take credit, but credit is due to wikipedia:”
I care not for the true origins of things, just the origin of use here at the cc.
I guess the best thing to do then if you are a big golfer is to live and work in the burbs. Even then, the prices for playing have reached phenomenal levels. With the decrease in play due to the economy, wouldn’t rates have to come down as well?
You guys better get it right: homedelete lives in a _below grade_ studio in uptown with his significant other, who majored in psychology (because it was easy).
That being said I think this place is a fair price for 2011. Not saying it can’t/won’t go lower but it’s a really nice part of town and if I family were to buy this where at least one spouse’s income stream isn’t at risk I don’t see any issues for them.
“That being said I think this place is a fair price for 2011.”
You did notice it’s in the basement, right?
“You did notice it’s in the basement, right?”
Oh…snap. Below grade. Yeah I think I’d pass at 380k. Very deceptive most buildings refer to their below grade or partially below grade as the G units. Another developer trick during the boom is to refer to them as the 1 units.
“If they want to get their money back, they are stuck–as we have all been suggesting.”
Perhaps they want to dump it before they lose more money? That would be an actual winning strategy, just like the past few years.
I mean, did everyone leverage into more than they could afford to lose?
“What is the significance of the statement in this property’s description which says: “Developers can’t build this space anymore”?”
Wicker – I forget when, but Chicago effectively banned the “walk out garden unit front patio” craze that stuck so many neighborhoods with concrete bathtubs as front yards.
“Wicker – I forget when, but Chicago effectively banned the “walk out garden unit front patio” craze that stuck so many neighborhoods with concrete bathtubs as front yards.”
Also, the building may (probably??) cover too much of the lot under current zoning/building code.
I like how on the ground level they have the curved concrete slabs above the windows. Like the developer started with the intention of putting curved windows in there but later said “Ahh F it these people bought pre-con let’s save some costs”.
So HD, you disowned the rest was the 4th tire law school true?
I think all the emphasis on tiers of law is from people who hail from two different categories: 1) those who think big law is the end all be all and 2) those who need external validation in terms of a lower admit rate to lend credence to their paradigm that they’re superior.
I’d bet if you looked at some of the best lawyers out there most didn’t come from top tier law schools. Person-ability matters a lot more in jury & bench trials than an LSAT score. If you’re facing a long sentence you better get a good lawyer who knows judges and keep changing venue until they get a judge that likes them.
I graduated from the same law school as Demetrio of Corboy & Demetrio; he makes more money than most biglaw attorneys.
Bob,
Most attorneys are not litigators.
You know the saying “No one has gotten fired for going with Goldman Sachs?”
Well, no one has gotten fired for going with Kirkland / Katten / Skadden, and no one at Kirkland / Katten / Skadden has gotten fired for going with a candidate from UChicago / NW / Michigan grad.
Rankings matter, objectively, for the >80% who are not litigators (and even for a lot of the litigators).
There are plenty of people from good law schools and bad law schools who are out of work. A bit of the luck of the Irish regarding the first job helps in any economy, but the last few years have been brutal for recent grads. Until the last few years, going to a good school meant that one had a decent shot at several years of high income and a passable shot at blockbuster income (and a comfortable landing) without being either a very good salesperson/self-promoter or very good at being a lawyer.
As it stands now, I think that the housing bubble pales in comparison to the higher education bubble.
“As it stands now, I think that the housing bubble pales in comparison to the higher education bubble.”
Dollar for dollar the housing bubble is bigger, but the increase percentage wise is in the education bubble’s favor. The insidious aspect of the college bubble is that the debt is non-dischargeable. Walk away from your house, no probs. Can’t walk away from your $40,000 to Kaplan U.
No thanks to this unit.
The luckiest few went to law school, graduated around 2001 or so, bought a condo in 2002, refinanced it in 2006 to pay off their law school debt, then gave the keys back to the bank in 2008.
Way back in the day, quite a few attorneys’ first case would be their own bankruptcy, which would discharge their student loan debt. That was before they changed the rules about student debt.
The education bubble is not kind at all. It’s amazing all the people from top law schools who are out of work. I know several who had close to 4.0’s in undergrad, were top of their high school class, and now are waiting tables and working 2-3 jobs just to put food on the table because they lost their big law jobs and can’t find any work in the past 2 years. It’s sad actually.
“Bob,
Most attorneys are not litigators.
You know the saying “No one has gotten fired for going with Goldman Sachs?”
Well, no one has gotten fired for going with Kirkland / Katten / Skadden, and no one at Kirkland / Katten / Skadden has gotten fired for going with a candidate from UChicago / NW / Michigan grad.
Rankings matter, objectively, for the >80% who are not litigators (and even for a lot of the litigators).”
gcoa I don’t know what planet or perspective you are from but the vast majority of lawyers (and even high paid lawyers) did not goto top 20 law schools, they also don’t work at the top X brand law firms. The vast majority I hear about in discussions/referrals did not go to top 20 law schools. They’ve been practicing for years and have a big network which makes them knowledgeable and successful.
I think your opinion is slanted toward the perspective of prospective biglaw types.
When my friends need an attorney they ask around who has had success in the past or knows of someone who has had success in the past with an attorney who specializes in their particular situation and reputation goes a long way.
Typically their reputation is such that they are able to charge exorbitant fees to get the desired result. Demand for specialized lawyers with a good reputation is pretty inelastic in most situations.
Case in point gcoa I know of two people who were facing significant prison time in different situations in different states. Possibly significant sentences, like 20 years.
Via getting the best lawyer they could and drawing out the legal proceedings neither did more than two years time. I know one spent around 100k on his lawyer over the years (I think it was around 6 years from arrest to report to prison time) and I think the other spent a bit as well (not sure of exact amount but I’d guess around 50k).
Both knew what they were facing and found a way to get the best lawyer possible for their situation. Yeah they hate what their lawyers did to them but I’d guess they much prefer that to the alternative.
They’re not gonna pay some biglaw robot who went to Harvard then worked at Kirkland for that. That’s all reputation.
In fact iirc the guy who spent over 100k on his lawyer over six years time I don’t even think did more than a few months in his county jail at the time.
And goes without saying he was caught with an obscene amount of contraband. Enough to send someone away for more than a decade with an inexperienced/bad lawyer.
Bob,
Again, *most* attorneys are not involved in criminal law or litigation. Therefore most attorneys don’t have to worry about BSing a judge or jury or whatever you deem to be good lawyering. Even if an attorney wanted to become involved in criminal law, good luck getting a job at the AG when we now have the UChicago and NW kids applying there too because of the economy.
I can say as a recent graduate who is looking for a job that tiers do matter. When a little 20 attorney transactional firm has its choice between a Michigan grad and a DePaul grad, they’re going to take the Michigan grad. And they’ll get the Michigan grad for 50k a year without benefits. Its how it works now – and why wouldn’t they? Firms of all size work this way too.
How about if your friends needed to hire a new transactional associate attorney with 0-3 years experience. I guarantee if they put out an ad they would be astounded by the qualifications of the applicants and would find it hard to choose the Northern Illinois grad over the UChicago grad.
“How about if your friends needed to hire a new transactional associate attorney with 0-3 years experience.”
My friends & social circle tend to need litigators on occasion so perhaps a biased sample. Whether it’s criminal defense, getting sued or suing somebody/something.
And if things are really as bad as you say I see changes in the bankruptcy code soon making student debt dis-chargeable like most other forms of debt. The lenders aren’t going to be able to get blood from a turnip and there’s going to be a sizable voting bloc really ticked off soon.
People need to start paying market rates for their newly originated student loans and all loans need to be dischargable. It would do wonders to pop the tuition bubble that has occurred over the past 20 years.
Also Bob, please reconcile these two statements:
“When my friends need an attorney they ask around who has had success in the past or knows of someone who has had success in the past with an attorney who specializes in their particular situation and reputation goes a long way.”
and
“They’re not gonna pay some biglaw robot who went to Harvard then worked at Kirkland for that. That’s all reputation.”
Is reputation something someone can rely on or not?
Granted I’m just a transactional guy, but if these kind of blatant contradictions in logic are acceptable in whatever kind of law you do, then Jesus Christ, maybe I should go into that field (after all, in the land of the blind the man with one eye is king, or whatever)
“Is reputation something someone can rely on or not?”
It’s definitely not iron clad. But it’s something where if you have built up a reputation in a certain niche (let’s say big drug possession cases or DUI defense) you can definitely charge exorbitant rates to those with the means. A lot of people find the means too in these situations.
Think about it: if someone is looking at up to 20 years in prison you better believe they’re going to pay the awesome drug possession with intent to delivery attorney $500+/hr or whatever it takes if they have any way to do so. At the end of the day tis better to be poor & free than in prison.
Probably civil law is more elastic I’d guess as it’s just money.
Another example: how many CPAs do you know that drink a lot? Most of them.
Let’s say you’re a CPA who gets arrested for DUI. What impact could a DUI conviction have on your career trajectory and possibly even ability to practice public accounting? A lot. Much more than a plumber or blue collar worker.
While CPAs are cheapskates generally what do you think the odds are that they are going to go for the 30k power defense DUI attorney vs. 6k for the standard one? Pretty good. They know this is one area they can’t afford to be cheap because it hurts them more in the long run. They have the means to pay and of course the lawyer will work with them on a payment plan.
Even if the stellar reputation attorney only has, let’s say a 20% increased outcome of beating the wrap: 1) they (CPA) doesn’t know this, and 2) it would still be worth it to a lot of them even if they had a realistic estimate of beating the wrap.
Or how about second offense DUI? Any Illinois driver convicted of their second DUI within 20 years has their license suspended for a mandatory five years.
How many people need to commute to their jobs in Illinois via driving, especially outside of Chicago? Almost all (maybe 85% outside of Chicago I’m guessing).
Is the plumber who makes $30/hour going to come up with the $30k for the excellent reputation DUI defense attorney given his livelihood is on the line? A lot of them.
Criminal defense is a high stakes game with people’s livelihood and freedom. If they can throw more money at the problem in an attempt to improve their odds of making it go away many will do it. Not everyone as not everyone has the means or perhaps understand what’s at stake. Those with the means who understand what’s at stake more often than not will pay through the nose for what they’ve heard is an excellent lawyer specializing in their situation.
Is there seriously a discussion taking place as to whether one would turn to a firm such as Kirkland for their DUI or other criminal defense needs? Such stuff, as the saying goes, simply isn’t in their wheelhouse (with the exception of major white-collar matters).
Emails get sent around places such as Kirkland on a daily basis seeking a recommendation for good DUI, divorce, criminal defense, etc., counsel, locally or in any of the states. What you would not see at such a place is an email seeking a recommendation for someone to defend against a multi-billion dollar, multi-jurisdictional lawsuit against a giant corporation…because that’s exactly what such a place does.
As for the proportion of litigators, it’s my understanding that at the top firms, it’s generally about 50/50 between litigation and transactional (though it’s certainly skewed towards lit at some places, e.g., Jenner). Sometimes those figures are hard to determine in places like D.C., where lots of people do regulatory work. And here in Chicago, the top couple of firms both have large BK practices, which defy clear categorization into either lit or trans.
Were I to be suddenly facing a DUI or murder charge, yes, the most highly recommended lawyers would likely be alumni of lower ranked schools…that’s just the nature of the law school/firm placement universe. Lower ranked schools tend to place an emphasis on real world, practical/technical training, and employ many professors who have actually practiced. And since the larger firms tend to only hire a few grads of lower ranked schools, most of them start at smaller firms (or start firms) or go into government, which tends to provide a lot of early, hands-on experience.
But as others have noted above, it’s a small minority of people who attend the top 30 or so schools (out of nearly 200) and an even smaller minority of total graduates who go on to work at a large firm. But it’s not just the DUI trenches that are occupied by lower ranked school alumni. For instance, I believe that at least 20% of IL judges attended JMLS, including two currently on the IL Supreme Ct.
What are the odds of student debt ever becoming dischargeable? Grads these days are already consolidating their loans at over 5%, which is way higher than the 2% or so when I graduated.
Unless you pulled equity out of your house/condo to pay down your debt then walk away from the house/condo, there’s really no way to discharge your student debt.
There’s a lot of attorneys out of work right now from top 20 schools and all other schools. It’s sad. I know multiple people who graduated high up in their classes from NW, Michigan, Cornell, and Harvard who are out of work right now. They were all laid off with huge student debt, have been out of work for over a year, and are now considering totally different careers. I’d hate to know what it’s like for the lower tier people…
Bob a good dui lawyer, even for your second DUI; shouldn’t cost more than 5 or 10 grand. What you want is a lawyer who can get you a good plea. A dui amended to a reckless works well with a rescission of the summary suspension.
Dave M:
The chances of federal student loans becoming dischargeable again? Not before your 30 year repayment term is up. Federal loans are guaranteed by the government. If I stop paying, Sallie Mae gets the principal amount repaid in full. I now owe the federal government and they’re not going to just write that off as a loss…
The chances of private student loans becoming dischargeable again? Somewhat likely. They used to be dischargeable prior to the 2005 amendments. There is a bill floating around Congress right now to do just that the Private Student Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act of 2010. I hasn’t been voted on yet I don’t think. The private student loan market is much smaller than the federal market (but growing).
I see this issue coming to a head 20 or 30 years from now when the student loan market is 2 to 3x the credit card market (they’re about equal now), and the country is filled with student loan debt zombies paying interest only on our student loans for 15, 20, 25 years still with large principal balances. OUr generation who got screwed and had to pay $30,000 a year for DePaul will finally have some people in Congress and maybe, just maybe something will get passed to help out the people. Regardless, student loans are a total drag on our society.
Bob is sort of right, but if you were selling a division of a huge public company, launching Facebook’s IPO, doing gM’s bankruptcy or restructuring a billion dollars worth of debt you would go biglaw. It should be obvious but you’d go to different types of practices depending on what the case or matter is. No one would go to biglaw for a dui they don’t do that type of work.
It’s funny, I was talking to a friend last night about how everyone I know who was laid off from law jobs has already found something and not waiting tables. Several people even went back to biglaw.
You know it’s a mixed bag in this legal profession. Not every lawyer is worried about finding a job because they have clients. The problem I seem to see often is finding new clients or keeping the clients you have. There are lots and lots of lawyers and fewer and fewer clients.
Most of my clients are the firm’s clients or come as referrals from others lawyer within the firm. I have very few personal clients and nowhere near enough to support myself. It’s not easy, it’s not easy at all, and given that the volume of this profession has fundamentally changed this recession, it’s not going to get any easier. Most partners want one of two things: institutional clients or a ‘big’ case. Both of those are difficult to retain and are in limited supply, especially given the large number of attorneys out there. It is extraordinarily difficult to find a client who will send you a book of biz a million a year or more, or to retain a ‘million dollar case’. It’s a combination of luck, networking, college friendships, family connections and hard work. Most guys who go out on their own just starve for years and years, some get lucky, but a lot just starve. They can never get enough clients to expand.