Get a 4700 Sq. Ft. Streeterville Penthouse for Just $500,000: 247 E. Chestnut
This 4-bedroom penthouse at 247 E. Chestnut in Streeterville just came on the market for just $500,000.
Yes, it is a short sale.
At 4700 square feet, it is a full-floor unit with 360 degree views of the Lake and city.
The building was built in 1958.
The kitchen is described as a “chef’s kitchen” with pear wood cabinetry, stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops.
It has central air and washer dryer in the unit.
Parking is rental in the building.
Check out the pictures and then decide- is this a deal?
Kurt Penn at Southport Sotheby’s International has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #2500: 4 bedrooms, 5 baths, 4700 square feet, full floor penthouse
- Sold in August 1986 (but I couldn’t determine the price)
- Currently listed as a “short sale” for $500,000
- Assessments of $4035 a month (includes heat, air conditioning, gas, doorman, cable)
- Taxes of $13,032
- Central Air
- 6×9 laundry room
- Rental Parking available
- Bedroom #1: 16×21
- Bedroom #2: 16×22
- Bedroom #3: 12×20
- Bedroom #4: 12×17
- Media room: 12×24
I am not the fond of some of the finishes but at this price you can re-do as you see fit. Seems like it should and will move fast. ? building problems. Assessments seem on target for the full floor.
This is a weird buy, priced at 500K and 4K assessments a month. Basically, The annual assessments are 10% of the value! BTW, the views are pretty pathetic for a penthouse and the ceiling appears to be pretty low.
And pear wood is desirable because…?
Apparently no takers at an auction last summer:
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/real-estate-today/2010/06/emmy-winning-soap-opera-writer-to-auction-streeterville-penthouse-in-july.html
“And pear wood is desirable because”
If you are returning from the Division and Rush street bars late at night and find that your fridge is bare then at least you can always eat one of the cabinets.
I know furniture made out of it is considered high end so I guess it has to have something going for it.
“And pear wood is desirable because…?”
Seems like a good deal but my dog is too fat. What is the point of weight restrictions on pets anyway? Seems like they would be better served imposing them on the residents. I can hear any adult walking around way more than I can hear a 25lb or a 125lb dog.
Of course the ceilings are lower: it’s a mid-century building. May be fashionable again as we come face to face with peak oil. It should be fitted out as mid-century minimalist modern to really look great.
Why pear wood:
“First published in British Woodworking Magazine July 2008
Pear wood is one of the most sensual and satisfying of hardwoods that a furniture maker can encounter. The structure of the wood is hard, so hard that the sharpest of tools are required to work it. This allows you to cut the finest of details and form the most delicate of shapes. Pear wood is also, unlike almost any other hardwood, without figure. I say without figure meaning without the usual graphics of timber. Pear wood is a timber that hasn’t lines running through it, but instead has a colour shift. The general colour of pear wood is almost dark fleshy colour, pinky brown is a favourite description. That colour can shift orangey or purpley brown on either side of the main colour. On rare occasions you can get dark purple, blacky contrasting heartwood colour but that is rare. Generally the colour of pear wood is a fleshy pink.”
from http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/news/?p=152
screw the wood, please lets get back to the ass fee of $4k a month
So then you can use the pick up line: “Hey baby, want to come back to my place and see my sensual and satisfying hardwood?”
I’m not interested in a 60 year old building but I’m sure someone will pick this up for $500k. Pay cash and then the monthly is just $5k. A full floor residence is very appealing. Has this price been okayed by the bank? If so, I expect it to sell quickly.
Assessments of $4K per month? Do I get my own call girl for that?
ASS is right. Pain in the ass to pay that $4K per month. That alone is what has stalled this sale. Sure I know that big penthouses or combined units will always pay more than a typical share but seriously at $4K per month plus another $750 for rental parking I’d sooner look at far more expensive properties with lower monthly costs.
Sonds more like the Young and the Ridiculous to live here.
No one actually thinks this is going to sell for only $500k, right? That’s like an eBay opening bid price. Perhaps $1 mil??
@ EJ…lmao
BTW, I find the word sensual so tacky. It is one word I would never ever use nor will I ever associate with someone using it…
“I’m sure someone will pick this up for $500k.”
No one “picked it up” at an auction last summer with a suggested opening bid of $600k.
Mortgage on the place has a face amount of $1.4mm.
I would settle for being invited to the housewarming party, that place looks like it could host some fun parties.
“BTW, I find the word sensual so tacky. It is one word I would never ever use nor will I ever associate with someone using it…”
I loved the first and last sentences, especially together. Filthy british woodworkers.
I’ve seen a similar low price but high taxes & assessments situation on a penthouse in Bridgeport (MLS: 07395073). It’s listed as a short sale for 129k but with monthly assessments of $725 and monthly taxes of $501.
My thoughts are the rest of the building must’ve seen the owners of the penthouse units as a mark and stuck it to them when it comes to assessments. Same thing seems to be happening here.
“No one “picked it up” at an auction last summer with a suggested opening bid of $600k.”
So the assessment is the real killer here. Should be in the $1500-2000/mo. range for that size unit.
anon, you are stealing groove’s thunder with your comments today…lol
“a penthouse in Bridgeport”
Oxymoron? Or, in this case, would that be Soxymoron?
“a penthouse in Bridgeport”
That’s the dormered attic in mom’s bungalow.
I know $4000 a month in assessments seems like a ton, but the place is a full floor penthouse with 4700 SQ FT. Thats about 4 – 2 BR units in SQ Ft, which would be a $1000 a month. Still a little high, but not really that outrageous.
For half a mil, i’m surprised this hasn’t been bought up by a developer. Do a gut of this place spend 750 – 1 mil and you could probably sell the place for $3 million… and if you’re buying at that price point, $5000 a month in assessment and taxes probably won’t mean that much to you.
EJ, please show me a 4700 unit that has a $1,500-$2,000/month assessment. Maybe, maybe you can find that in a new construction but you’ll also be paying a lot more than $500k – like $3m. Look a the 3,000 sqft units at the Pinnacle. They are $2,100/month.
I think I’m pretty pessimistic on housing prices, but after reading the post and looking at the photos I thought $500k was a low ball price to start a bidding war, and that the place likely would go for 900k to $1.1 mil. I’m surprised at the link anon(tfo) posted that the place did not sell for the $600k minimum bid at a previous auction. Either prices on high-end condos are falling through the floor, or there’s something seriously wrong with this place or the building.
“Do a gut of this place spend 750 – 1 mil and you could probably sell the place for $3 million”
Does anyone with a $3m budget ever choose to live in a building like this? Doesn’t look like anything else has sold for over $275 psf, bump it to $300 for PH and full floor, you’re still under $1.5mm for a livable, un-fancy updated space.
I don’t see anyone wanting to sink another $1.5mm into upgrades in this building–you can get a full floor (yeah, not a PH) at 50 E Chestnut for around $3m, including two deeded parking spots and with 50% lower assessments (yes, higher taxes, but not once you tarted this one up to a $3mm place). Seems like a no brainer, to me.
The malaise has now set into the high end. I’m surprised at the low price, too, even with the assessments, because this is a huge place in move in condition in an ideal location.
But there are fewer people who can afford places like this than it looked like when you could get a loan for any amount of money with very little down. Too many high end condos, many with amenities people these days really want, and too few truly qualified buyers for them.
I have a hard time believing someone who has half a mil in cash to drop on a place wants to spend upwards of $5k per month in assessments and taxes to share an elevator with the people who bought a 2/2 for $250k.
This seems like a steal, but that monthly is insane. Maybe it does make sense if you translate it into the equivalent of the 4 units it would have been, but then I find $1,000 a month in assessments for a $250k 2/2 to be ridiculous too.
Maybe it’s the photos, or the furniture, or the carpet but I find this place kind of outdated and small feeling, which is crazy for 4700 sq ft.
“Either prices on high-end condos are falling through the floor, or there’s something seriously wrong with this place or the building.”
This is an “over improved” (just by size) regular unit in a mediocre building with high(ish) assessments. It is *not* a “high-end” condo. The space is great, but essentially raw, and the building just *won’t* support a $2mm-type penthouse, at least in the current and near term market.
Also, I suspect someone made an offer at the auction, but that the bank wouldn’t approve it, at least at the time, based on the total of what the bid was plus what the owners were offering to chip in. I’d find it tough–were I the asset manager–to accept a walk away from someone who is still employed in what she herself called a “very lucrative career” in an interview easily located on the intertubez.
“then I find $1,000 a month in assessments for a $250k 2/2 to be ridiculous too.”
That is, in fact, what the assessments are for the 2/2s–1502 and 1902 are both on the market for $250 and $260 and list assessments of $1025 and $1000.
I guess you probably get your own elevator for the PH, but still. Yes I saw the 2/2s had those assessments, ridiculous.
Building has only 4 units per floor, so assessments are perfectly reasonable. Pictures make it look kinda junky though.
The no parking sucks. Other than that, I think that this would be attractive to some people in some parts of the upper bracket. Assuming a cash purchase at the list price, all-in you’re looking at under $5500 a month, which is pretty good for that space. You could do a pretty amazing buildout without too much trouble. Even a couple hundred grand would do a lot for a property like that.
However, it doesn’t sound like the bank is very motivated to move this, so I think that the $500k sale price is pretty pie-in-the-sky.
Problem is this building is not high-end compared to others in the area. Nobody is going to pay a premium to have the best unit in an otherwise mediocre building. Plenty of other options in this neighborhood for the same monthly payment. Other units for sale may have less square footage, but in the end most people here are buying for the great location and not so much the space and finishes.
At $4k a floor, that makes the annual assessments income about $1 million, so that doesn’t seem like a completely absurd figure considering the building size and expected utility and personnel costs.
It should be patently obvious to all but the most bullish of posters that there are more high end properties for sale than buyers who can afford them. The bulls never want to admit that the high end market is overbuilt and oversaturated. They keep saying “a rich person will buy this” and of course there are never enough rich people to buy every high end or penthouse property.
don’t worry HD, the stock market is up!
Fun place to visit, but rich or poor, I wouldn’t want to live in Streeterville.
but anonny, you could run out the front door with your kayak on your head and sprint to the lake in 20 seconds. It would be like your own personal triathlon start every morning. If they allowed kayaks in triathlons.
do you think that it would be a benefit to the other owners to lower the penthouse ass. by each paying a little more themselves? in order to fetch a higher price for the penthouse, bc if it sells at this price is going to destroy the value of their condo in same building which is smaller? another option would be buy this unit and split into 2 units and resale?
Given my swimming skills, a kayak is about the only way I’d be able to finish a tri.
Groove77 : screw the wood
If you did, it would be sensual and satisfying.
I have a couple of thoughts on this unit:
a) How do you buy in 1986 and find yourself in a short sale situation in 2011? Especially when you have a “lucrative career”. What the hell is wrong with people?
b) Could a buyer re-configure this back into multiple units? Would that even make sense? (Maybe turn it back into 4 units, live in 1, sell the other 3?)
“Basically, The annual assessments are 10% of the value!”
I wonder if a rule of thumb for the Chicago market could be formulated from analyzing this ratio more often?
“I loved the first and last sentences, especially together. Filthy british woodworkers.”
ha ha, my thoughts exactly, except I was thinking filthy LGBT woodworkers. The article is from 2008, not 1932.
“a) How do you buy in 1986 and find yourself in a short sale situation in 2011? Especially when you have a “lucrative career”. What the hell is wrong with people?”
Evil Answer: she likely had lucrative spending habits to go along with and maybe didn’t want her social circle to know that being an emmy-award winning writer maybe didn’t pay as well as hollywood.
Good Answer: medical bills.
In any case not too sympathetic of a person as this is a penthouse unit and she was livin’ it up for quite awhiles.
“Either prices on high-end condos are falling through the floor, or there’s something seriously wrong with this place or the building.”
I think the building & unit’s mid-century attributes are the turn-off. Someone who wants 4,700 sf in Streeterville or the GC won’t settle for these low ceilings, etc. no matter what. It’d be like a well-located 3,600 sf 1961 split-level for sale in Winnetka or Wilmette, no matter how good the location, no matter how tricked out the finishes are, there are buyers who wouldn’t ever touch it. Maybe it would make sense to turn this into two or four units again.
“ha ha, my thoughts exactly, except I was thinking filthy LGBT woodworkers”
i would try a spinner bait, or a sinker, or you can go with the good ol earthworm bait. i dont think yours is working, well i guess i somewhat worked as i am typing, hmmm something to ponder.
There are plenty of penthouses for sale in newer buildings. Some are a bit more than $500k but assessments per sqft aren’t that much different.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/25-E-Superior-St-60611/unit-4701/home/12708778
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/57-E-Delaware-Pl-60611/unit-4100/home/12770586
I don’t think the bank would really accept $500k on this unit.
“Pear wood is one of the most sensual and satisfying of hardwoods that a furniture maker can encounter. The structure of the wood is hard…..On rare occasions you can get dark purple, blacky contrasting heartwood colour but that is rare. Generally the colour of pear wood is a fleshy pink.”
Groove…come on, LOL. Let’s compromise. The above was written by a British LGBT fine arts magazine author.
I am going to start a new conspiracy theory:
Dan is Sabrina’s alter ego that writes controversional comments to get more posts on the site…lol
Bob:
Good Answer: medical bills.
If she writes for a soap, she’s in the writers guild and thus has access to a union health care plan. I suppose it’s possible that she declined coverage…
HAHA, high-end finishes are GAY!
Seriously?
“They keep saying “a rich person will buy this” and of course there are never enough rich people to buy every high end or penthouse property.”
That might be true, but a rich person already owns it. Problem is rich people are moving out of Chicago, in this case to New York it seems. Just like rich companies will move out of Illinois.
The two main problems with this place (at any price) are:
1. Assessments
2. Low ceilings
3. Lack of private outdoor space
Even if you gave me this place for free, I would NEVER take it – you have to pay 5000 in assessments/taxes each month (and you know these are going to go up).
Also, the low ceilings are a killer. No wealthy person in this day and age wants to live in this type of place
The best thing possible would be to buy this and split it back to 4 units (or however many units were combined).
Cribchatter favorite Nate Berkus is also selling his Chicago place as he’s upped sticks to NYC. Hmm.
Jennifer, I think Sabriana had featured his property on CC not long ago.
I like this building. It is simple. The views from this floor are excellent. Although the ceiling is not 9′, when the walls are removed, as in this unit, it is dramatic. I’d go for this if it were not for the assessments. Assessments are high in this building, but it is well maintained. I think another reason that this has not sold is the lack of outdoor space, not even a balcony. The building outdoor space on the south end of the top floor is very nice.
“If she writes for a soap, she’s in the writers guild and thus has access to a union health care plan. I suppose it’s possible that she declined coverage”
Then she probably HELOC’d the heck out of it to pay her assessments. Funny I didn’t think of that one sooner.
Maybe the HELOC was a DP for the NYC pad.
“Maybe the HELOC was a DP for the NYC pad.”
Last mortgage was 05/06 (don’t recall which).
Bob – it is so obvious that you are either a closeted male or very gay curious. You live near boystown – just go into one of those bars and get it over with already.
“Bob – it is so obvious that you are either a closeted male or very gay curious. You live near boystown – just go into one of those bars and get it over with already.”
Sorry clio, just because you will it doesn’t make it true. And no– don’t live there anymore. You are the one who owns property there, which I for some reason find hilarious.
OK- I think I finally found a “deal”. It is a one bedroom, basement apt and NOT in the green zone. I put in a full price cash offer and I will let you guys know how it goes:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1460-W-Balmoral-Ave-60640/unit-1/home/12744028
It’s a bidding situation you’re involved in and you’re doing free advertising to other potential investors for this unit?
“It’s a bidding situation you’re involved in and you’re doing free advertising to other potential investors for this unit?”
Is it a bidding situation? It is a 1 bedroom (everyone on CC hates that). It is a basement (everyone on CC hates that). It is not in the green zone (everyone on CC hates that). There is no parking (everyone on CC hates that). Taxes are 10% of the purchase price (everyone on CC would hate that). By CC standards, this is probably an “epic fail” (besides, I believe in fair competition).
Clio:
Either you truly aren’t bidding on it or you are colossally stupid. If you think cribchatter isn’t browsed by many lurkers and investors you’re crazy. And you just did a bit of homework for competing investors.
Bob – I am a real estate addict – I can’t stop myself from bidding on a property that I know is a steal. However, deep down I don’t think I really WANT to buy this place because it doesn’t excite me (it is a 1 bed basement apt w/o parking in a neighborhood I only know by word of mouth). Sure I can make 50k easily – but that isn’t what excites me. It is the thrill of the find. Oh, and I absolutely put in a 100% cash full offer on the place today (w/o even seeing the place). I don’t care if someone outbids me – in fact, subconsciously I hope that somebody does – because deep down, I want to find something else. I am not into it for the money – but the excitement of the search.
Isn’t it only open to owner occupiers until 4/12?
Clio, that property is still under the Freddie Mac first look initiative. How do you expect to buy it as an investor during this time?
chukdotcom – not that hard at all……
clio you’re a dumbass
why sonies?
Clio … I hope balmoral isn’t going to be your new in-town uptown! I assume remodel and flip. There might be a lot of hidden costs behind those walls. How much would you put in to remodel?
“there might be a lot of hidden costs behind those walls”
Got me thinking about Stir of Echoes…
ss- I don’t know this area at all but the people I know that live in this neighborhood say that it is AWESOME. I haven’t seen the unit and this is the 2nd time (in 2 weeks) that I have put in an all cash offer on a place I have never seen. I have a feeling that there might be a bidding war and I don’t know how high I would go. I actually posted it on cribchatter to get some feedback on the place and neighborhood.
Clio, what would you plan on doing with it? renovate? rent as is?
“OK- I think I finally found a “deal”. It is a one bedroom, basement apt and NOT in the green zone. I put in a full price cash offer and I will let you guys know how it goes:”
Where’s Milkster? She’s been bidding on these types of units for 2 years (all outside the GZ.) She is very familiar with what goes on in the sale of these (and she’s NEVER talked about bidding wars- to be honest.)
Milkster- what say you about Clio’s unit on Balmoral? (look further up the thread.)
Well, it is only open to owner -occupied buyers until 4/12 so maybe I will downsize and move into the unit!!!
Clio- why do you think this is a deal if you know nothing about the neighborhood?
Why aren’t you buying the Humboldt Park homes for $24,000? That seems like more of a deal to me. Those houses are now being flipped for $150,000 to $200,000. You don’t have to deal with a condo association.
“Clio- why do you think this is a deal if you know nothing about the neighborhood?”
2-3 different people told me that the area around ashland/clark/balmoral is the hottest area of andersonville (specifically 5200-5600north and 1-2 blocks east and west of ashland/clark). I have no idea…. I have only been there once at night to go to that restaurant La Tache or something like that (right on Balmoral).
“Why aren’t you buying the Humboldt Park homes for $24,000?”
Wait – isn’t that near Western avenue?
oh ok, I wasn’t sure what that Freddie Mac first look was. Sorry wasn’t trying to bait you into anything. Anyway that front room looks fine to me, needs a bit of work throughout the rest of place but nothing too major (hopefully) at this price point. As for the neighborhood, I have lived in Rogers Park and on Irving Park before, so on both sides of this area but never directly in the area. Could be a nice place though for 60k if done right. good luck
Thanks flo – we will see what happens. As I have mentioned before, I have submitted scores of offers in the past 6 months – none of which have resulted in a sale (and most have been full price cash offers!!!). I am not holding my breath on this one….. I will let you know what happens.
What are you going to DO with it? Rent it out?
It’s still a garden apartment. But yes- that area is very popular right now.
What would this rent for? $700 or $800 a month or so?
“Wait – isn’t that near Western avenue?”
There is a LOT of flipping/renovating going on in Humboldt Park and Logan Square right now. Good for the neighborhood. Some houses are selling for only $20k to $30k.
“It’s still a garden apartment. But yes- that area is very popular right now.
What would this rent for? $700 or $800 a month or so?”
Taxes plus assessments are over 700/month (?mistake on taxes). Even if I got it at list price and didn’t put any money into it, I would have to rent it for 1000 to make 5% – although I DO think the taxes are mistake ($5600)
WOW – I just saw that R. Kelly place is under contract!!
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1010-W-George-St-60657/home/13363114
Please people stop feeding the ego
Hi everyone!
I just took a look at Clio’s place on Balmoral. Clio, I love the neighborhood, however there are some problems with this unit and my verdict is this is not the right investment for you. The taxes are out of control. Your taxes + assessments alone add up to $677/month. Add insurance for a rental and you’re up to $700. In this market you could rent it out for $700 – 800/month. If you add a property management fee plus repairs you are losing money, even paying all cash. It’s only a 4 unit building. There could be some high special assessments. Make sure you read through the financials and HOA meeting minutes.
Resale potential is going to be impeded by these numbers. It’s more expensive to buy than to rent. Plus it’s a basement. Knowing your taste, you don’t want to downsize to a basement in Andersonville. There are other better options for you if you would like to downsize which I would be in favor of.
There are some positives about this unit. I think you could paint the brick, stone and wood panelling with white semi-gloss which would make the place seem less gloomy and put in some nice berber or sisal carpeting. I like the fireplace. The kitchen and baths look to be in excellent condition. The 2 baths is a huge plus. It could be staged much better for a flip.
My major problems with this place are the basement aspect and the taxes. The condo association would have to apply for a reduction in taxes – (individual owners cannot) – and there is a window every year for each neighborhood in Chicago so your HOA has to stay on top of it.
I used to own a duplex-down with a private garden in Red Hook, Brooklyn in the mid-nineties. I liked having all the space, however the basement level always had a musty smell. I had problems with massive nuclear-sized waterbug roaches. When it rained heavily it would flood a little. Personally I would never buy a duplex down again, and most CCers seem to hate them. It’s just a tough resale.
I have bid on a few properties through the Freddie Mac First Look Program – SFHs and apartments. None of them have worked out for me. The idea of the program is to get owner-occupiers to buy into neighborhoods instead of investors, with the idea that owner-occupiers will take a more vested interest in their communities and make them more stable. However the properties are always crap. I’ve never seen one which was in as good condition as this one. Because the properties are usually crap, no one will lend on them. You HAVE to pay all cash. But few owner occupiers have that much cash. So after the 2 week owner-occupier bidding period ends, all kinds of investors descend and it becomes a bidding war.
I was trying to get a SFH by the Cali el stop in Logan for myself and the house went for 4 times the asking price to an investor. I’m still heartbroken over it, but there was nothing I could do. The place was unliveable and would have required a complete re-do. An investor came in and bought the place for cash and I assume they have the cash for the renovations too.
Also with some of these properties, I’ve had frustrations because sometimes the LAs never respond to offers. Sometimes the places go on and off the market several times. Sometimes they go to auction several times. When you make a bid they either reject it right away or counter at a really high price. It’s been frustrating, especially because I’m willing to compromise on just about everything as far as location and condition and type of property.
Thanks Milkster, you bring up excellent points!!!
Wow – Milkster’s numbers make me think if this place isn’t a bargain at 61k, then how the heck is ANYTHING like this going to ever sell?
Pretty crazy there are so many ‘investors’ and few end buyers. It’s almost as if there is another bubble, albeit infinitesimally smaller, forming in investor properties. In the areas I watch virtually every property under $300,000 is ‘snapped’ up by an investor, with a handful sold to FHA 3.5% buyers. What is going to happen to all the investor properties? Many of them haven’t even been relisted on the MLS as of today….interesting times we live in.
“What is going to happen to all the investor properties?”
The rental market has gone CRAZY WILD in the past 2 weeks. Seriously, I have 3 rentals that all got snapped up in the past 2 weeks (one of which was 4500/month for a crappy 2/2 in the gold coast). Even in the suburbs, the rental houses are being rented in a matter of days. Also, one of my friends has been looking for a rental in the gold coast/river north area. I have been looking at the MLS throughout the winter and reassured him we could find a 1 bedroom for 1500-1600/month (as there were plenty). I just started looking again for him this week and it seems as though rental prices have shot up. There is nothing decent for less than 1800 w/parking. I can’t believe it!!!
“I just took a look at Clio’s place on Balmoral. Clio, I love the neighborhood, however there are some problems with this unit and my verdict is this is not the right investment for you.”
Thanks Milkster. I knew you could provide us with some good insight on what it’s like to buy these kinds of properties since you’ve been doing it.
Perfect answer clio. There is a bubble in the investor market and investors are trying to coax rents up to pay for their increased costs basis. we’ll see how long this lasts. I give it through the summer and then a crash in the investor market as more foreclosure properties hit the market.
“The rental market has gone CRAZY WILD in the past 2 weeks.”
Clio- is this a serious comment?
Really?
April 1st is moving day in Chicago for renters. How could you not know this as a landlord? Nothing strange about a surge in rentals getting rented right now. It happens every year.
This kind of comment makes me doubt you own ANY properties.
“April 1st is moving day in Chicago for renters.”
back in my day most leases ended on april 30th is this not the case anymore?
“back in my day most leases ended on april 30th is this not the case anymore?”
May 1 and October 1, yeah. That’s my recollection of traditional dates, too, but that’s been slipping for at least 15 years.
“April 1st is moving day in Chicago for renters. How could you not know this as a landlord? Nothing strange about a surge in rentals getting rented right now. It happens every year.
This kind of comment makes me doubt you own ANY properties.”
Sabrina, WTF are you talking about – I have several properties and have seen the rental market languish in the past two years. Also, most of my properties (except 5) are in the suburbs where the most popular move in/move out dates are usually June/July 1, and Sept1. Also, my comment was also more about the price of rentals than anything. Thirdly, you KNOW I own several properties so I don’t know why you would make a comment like that.
“Wow – Milkster’s numbers make me think if this place isn’t a bargain at 61k, then how the heck is ANYTHING like this going to ever sell?”
Price is just one input. They could give this place away for free, but if the taxes were $12k, it wouldn’t be worth it. This one is priced right, but the taxes are too high.
“May 1 and October 1, yeah. That’s my recollection of traditional dates, too, but that’s been slipping for at least 15 years.”
even the burbs too had a april 30th date, my brief parlay in naperville with a ex had a april 30th date on the lease IIRC
“My major problems with this place are the basement aspect and the taxes. The condo association would have to apply for a reduction in taxes – (individual owners cannot) – and there is a window every year for each neighborhood in Chicago so your HOA has to stay on top of it.”
I don’t think this is true. I believe individual owners can appeal taxes in a condominium. Often times the association pools everyone together for efficiency, but that is not a constraint more a best practice.
“This kind of comment makes me doubt you own ANY properties.”
That is a little harsh. Our properties have various LE dates and only some are on 4/1. Look at two flats around the city that have LE dates. Clio is also correct that the cycle in the suburbs revolves around school dates.
“I don’t think this is true. I believe individual owners can appeal taxes in a condominium. Often times the association pools everyone together for efficiency, but that is not a constraint more a best practice.”
My understanding, too.
Also, I belive the rental market for SFHs is very strong right now, based only on our own portfolio. We are achieving SFH rents above $5,000 on properties we have MTM appraised at 700k, sometimes less. The numbers may not wow you but remember these are excellent credits (families, peak earning years) often option for multi-year leases. The downside is you get Type-A stay at home mommies that can be demanding about every last thing.
We live in a condo and successfully appealed our taxes individually although we we appealing an incorrect classification and not a value issue.
That is some type-A personality if one stays at home and is content to be ambitious about rental features of their home. I would call that people who have nothing better to do with their time and want to feel they actually have something to say.
“Type-A stay at home mommies”
By the way, I found this article interesting.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-north-shore-affordable-housing20110330,0,2289242.story
Winnetka can and should do something here. Plenty of options on Tower Rd or off Green Bay.
I don’t really get the “it will lower our property values” argument in this market. As if that is the thing to worry about. I do think there is some serious classism here, which is unfortunate.
JMM,
Oak Brook had the same problem so it annexed some apartment buildings/condos at the very edge of the village to achieve this. The only downside is that it significantly skews average home values/income reported in the data that people like “G” like to post. This gives an false picture and idea of what a town is actually like. For example, the average price of a home (they combine SFH and condos in all school districts) for Oak brook is something like 650k – but the truth of the matter is that you cannot find anything in the OB/HC school district that is decent for less than 1.2-1.5 million. This is why I feel very strongly about data when it comes to average home prices, sales, income, population, etc.
“That is some type-A personality if one stays at home and is content to be ambitious about rental features of their home. I would call that people who have nothing better to do with their time and want to feel they actually have something to say.”
I am not sure I understand or agree. Many of these women had careers and stopped when the 2nd or 3rd child came along. One example: stay at home was an associate at a solid firm in NYC, NYU law degree, Penn ungrad. Four kids under 7 at home and husband is an investment banker who just transfered here. I don’t think she has nothing to do, I think she runs the household the way ambitious people run careers. Very detail oriented and will call you out with a punchlist if the work isn’t done right or as agreed.
Clio the same is true of median incomes how they get skewed. In our village, mostly by retirees. I’d say median family income ex-retirees and other special cases (widows, divorcees, etc) is around 400k, but it gets reported around 200k.
JMM:
Your portfolio consists of high end single family homes for rent? That’s unusual. Were you involved in building spec homes during the boom?
“Your portfolio consists of high end single family homes for rent?”
Mine does too – actually, most of the rentals I know in Hinsdale Oak Brook are owned by a few people – not just builders. Basically, the way we (me and the other landlords) did it was to buy 1 property that were “good buys” every 1-2 years. After ten-fifteen years, you can see how you can acquire 10-15 properties. It just takes time….
“Your portfolio consists of high end single family homes for rent? That’s unusual. Were you involved in building spec homes during the boom?”
Investment office, not a builder HD. Our real esate office did convert serveral two flats during the boom in the city (Lakeview, North Center) and they have performed ok. We’re talking about two flats that have been owned since the early 1980s in some cases. In a few cases, SFH homes were acquired for corporate housing but are now part of the rental portfolio. It isn’t a big area of the rental market, and I am not sure if that will change or not. It will be interesting to see.
The practice is never to reduce rental holdings, only to add to them. I cannot remember the last time a rental property was disposed of.
“I do think there is some serious classism here, which is unfortunate.”
I glanced over the article, may of missed a few key points, but its kind of jacked up that they would say no to the teachers/firemen/policeman getting “help” to live in the community they serve.
i do see the other side of the “subsidizing” when you get other unwashed masses than the teachers/firemen/policeman,
but dang 55k for rental requirment isnt really slumming up the town now is it?
“but dang 55k for rental requirment isnt really slumming up the town now is it?”
Not at all. Idiot teenage kids do a lot worse things up this way than a middle aged middle income professional would.
From wkiki:
“The theory describes a Type A individual as ambitious, aggressive, business-like, controlling, highly competitive, impatient, preoccupied with his or her status, time-conscious, and tightly-wound. People with Type A personalities are often high-achieving “workaholics” who multi-task, push themselves with deadlines, and hate both delays and ambivalence.”
Someone who is ambitious and preoccupied with status won’t become stay at home mom. They would make enough money to hire a nanny. I am not saying it is a positive or negative thing, but I object to use of the term type A. People use the term so loosely for any one who has some minimum of standards or cares about insignificant details. I have noticed people who have few important decisions to make bother much more about insignificant details. That does not make them type A personalities.
“I found this article interesting”
The photo is pretty awesome.
“We are achieving SFH rents above $5,000 on properties we have MTM appraised at 700k, sometimes less.”
What’s the heitman or inverse heitman formula? Trying to figure out where my rent stands. Better deal than JMM’s tenants, certainly.
OK – I am going to be the “bad guy/devil’s advocate” but why do these people have to live in Winnetka or in other wealthy suburbs? Seriously, we don’t feel excluded because we are not welcome in Englewood – why don’t they leave us alone? We can all get along fine, but it doesn’t mean we have to live together. That is just ridiculous. It reminds me of Boston where such idiotic requirements were in place and while it is true that you had multimillionaires living right next to section 8 housing, it did not promote camaraderie or new friendships – each class kept to themselves and ignored the other (like an uncomfortable silence). It was ridiculous. The socialist thinking in this country has gotten out of hand!!!
“Not at all. Idiot teenage kids do a lot worse things up this way than a middle aged middle income professional would.”
well said 🙂
also, regarding the article, i am glad there are still professional photographers working at the trib. the photo sums up everything that was written.
AWESOME.
” i am glad there are still professional photographers working at the trib. the photo sums up everything that was written.”
No – that is not professional – it is one-sided and meant to irritate people (there is no reason to mention that the lady is pictured in her 2nd home in Florida). That is EXACTLY what is wrong with the media. Groove, just because that is the way YOU feel about something does not mean that is the way it should be reported in the media. How would you feel if they did a story about Englewood and they pictured a group of people smoking crack around a barrel-fire with prostitutes hanging around in the background?
“Someone who is ambitious and preoccupied with status won’t become stay at home mom. They would make enough money to hire a nanny. I am not saying it is a positive or negative thing, but I object to use of the term type A.”
Wish that were true. But there are plenty of well-educated, status-driven stay-at-home moms, who also happen to have nannies. Getting the kids to and from Parker/Latin/New Trier and music/sports/etc. in between exercise and serving on boards, etc. is often a routine at which so-called type A’s take it to another level.
“What’s the heitman or inverse heitman formula?”
[12*(Rent-assess)-taxes]/.055/.8 = Value
thus Net rent of $60k, with $10k taxes = 1,136,000
Which, of course, is nutso. Eliminate the .8 factor and you get $900k, which is pretty reasonable, in the current environment.
“in between exercise and serving on boards, etc. is often a routine at which so-called type A’s take it to another level.”
oh my the other level is an understatement. accompanied with the nannies these moms will be a president of some organization be it some fundraiser (or multi ones) and/or PTA, Friends of, neighborhood board, or area business council.
which at times i really dont think you can call it “stay at home”. as i have seen when little timmy is 2 mommy will be at yoga for two hours and then some board (like anon states) for a few hours. is she really hanging with timmy or is nanny #1 doing the biz?
To me these are smart women who got the education and couple of years of work on their CV but were never going to become CEOs, university presidents, top notch doctors, chefs, musicians, etc… so they opted out for being top mommy and to compensate mastered the art of nitpicking to make their husbands and the rest of the word perceive them more than what they are. They in fact opted for being the big fish in a small pound. They are no more qualifies with their degrees for motherhood than other wonderful mothers that stay at home and do a great job bringing up their kids without having high degrees to brag about.
If a smart man with high paying job quits and becomes a stay at home dad no one will call him type-A no matter how many after school programs he drives his kids to.
“How would you feel if they did a story about Englewood and they pictured a group of people smoking crack around a barrel-fire with prostitutes hanging around in the background?”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA! I actually just laughed out loud and everyone on the desk just turned to look. Thanks, Clio. I needed it today!
Being president of some nonsense board made of bunch of stay at home mommies does not make one a business woman. Now being secretary of state does. These people have created their own little universe pretending to have some impact when in fact they have none in the grand scheme of things. Again would you have the same assessment if men were doing this BS?
“Which, of course, is nutso. Eliminate the .8 factor and you get $900k, which is pretty reasonable, in the current environment.”
So my rent is at 80-90 percent of the implied rent from the non-nutso version, before taking upkeep (which I assume should go in place of assess) into account. Hard to figure out market price, not a lot of comps around.
“than other wonderful mothers that stay at home and do a great job bringing up their kids without having high degrees to brag about”
trust me no degree will help you raise a kid, those women can brag all they want about degrees but when it comes to little squirts all of that is out the window. even an advance degree in early childhood development will only help a bit (and may be hindrance actually if its your own kid)
“Being president of some nonsense board made of bunch of stay at home mommies does not make one a business woman. Now being secretary of state does. These people have created their own little universe pretending to have some impact when in fact they have none in the grand scheme of things. Again would you have the same assessment if men were doing this BS?”
You can get away with it, because you’re a woman, but when a man points this out, especially in a professional environment, he’s a misogynist.
I don’t think that it’s uniquely American, but it’s certainly common that American women marry up in terms of economics and social stature, and then spend the rest of their time trying to convince the rest of the world that they’re better than everyone because of who they married.
“If a smart man with high paying job quits and becomes a stay at home dad no one will call him type-A no matter how many after school programs he drives his kids to.”
Please. “Quits” is relative. About 2 years ago, a neighbor sold his business netting north of $25M (my estimate and just for his equity piece) and now is a full time golfer / paddle tennis player and sits on a bunch of boards. He is stay at home, takes the kids to school. He is as Type-A is it comes, worked 90 hour weeks and was the CEO of a large, well recognized company.
“CEOs, university presidents, top notch doctors, chefs, musicians, etc…”
Give me a break. What sort of cohort is that? Chefs and CEOs?
“They would make enough money to hire a nanny.”
What makes you think they don’t also have one? As others have pointed out, many stay at home and do have one.
I am guessing at least a few of my married, stay at home mommy tenants had better career tracks that you. One of our neighbors was a female executive at a large Chicago investment firm in town and is now home with the kids despite the fact that it was an 8K reportable event when she announced her retirement.
Your perspective here seems a bit off.
I mostly agree with JMM, but I would expect that the reality is that women who leave the workforce to be stay at home moms are less likely to be proficient in their careers than those who stay in their careers.
I have more of a disdain for those who have nannies but don’t work (and by work I mean something that is either paid work or for a charity and requires their time away from their children on a daily basis). This is a life of leisure. I don’t have a problem with a life of leisure, but at least call it what it is.
Maybe miumiu needs to catch on to which “other half” she belongs to?
“Your perspective here seems a bit off.”
“One of our neighbors was a female executive at a large Chicago investment firm in town and is now home with the kids despite the fact that it was an 8K reportable event when she announced her retirement. ”
Then there’s Brenda Barnes, who quit a CEO gig to spend time with her kids and came back to another CEO gig. And is now retired for health reasons.
It is not uniquely American, but I’d say it is way more common here. It really saddens me as a woman though. If we want equal rights and respect, we have to work for it like everyone else.
JMM… celeb chefs if they are also owners of their restaurants can make well into upper six figures if not millions.
Seriously though, I’ve seen some serious relationship tension with couples where the woman makes substantially more than the husband. Hubbie is trying to be man of the household, but the woman is bringing home all the bacon.
It only takes one argument where the woman says “Well, I’m paying the bills” for the guys ego to get crushed into oblivion.
I’ve seen some super successful stay at home moms and I have also seen a few stay home dads. I think people’s egos and need to be accepted by their peers is what drives most of the insecurity.
@ JMM, one person does not make the statistics, so your one example is meaningless to me. I also have a few examples of women who were working at McKinsey and prestigious law firms that quit and became stay at home moms and believe me none of them was going to make it to the top. As for chefs and CEOs, you think a top notch chef is less than a top CEO? Not sure what you mean. Tope chefs are great managers, creative forces and business savvy people.
Also what do you know about my job or how good I am at it? You can argue on the point, but making personal comments does not add any more credit to your argument.
@ Emma, I know where I belong. I belong to the side who thinks you gain equality and respect by actually doing something rather than demanding it.
BTW,
i would totally crush it as a stay at home dad, without a nanny at that!
Celebrity chefs are a tiny subset of chefs, and they’re really more media personalities anyway. Same with musicians – do you have any idea how little most musicians make, even the ones that play, for example, in the CSO?
I agree that it is absurd to include “chefs” in “CEOs, university presidents, top notch doctors, chefs, musicians, etc” as a list of people proficient in their craft, but it’s more absurd to include musicians.
Back to the topic at hand, I fear for my daughter(s) more than my son(s) when I think about how my kids will see the world and be treated over their lives. Most of the messages that our society gives to girls are disgusting and backwards. I also think that the frequency with which highly-educated women stop working in their careers as soon as they can contributes to skepticism about the ambition of all women in these careers, which is really too bad.
“I also think that the frequency with which highly-educated women stop working in their careers as soon as they can contributes to skepticism about the ambition of all women in these careers, which is really too bad.”
What contributes to it as much is the repetition of this anecdotal “fact”.
I actually know more than several couples where the wife is the higher earner and don’t know any of them that have any (evident–never know the whole truth unless it’s you) power struggle over it. But I guess (again) that I just know an odd group of folks.
By the way, I found this article interesting.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-north-shore-affordable-housing20110330,0,2289242.story
Yeah, so did I. Look at who’s causing all the ruckus. Utterly predictable.
JJJ, if you are talking averages, then yes, the average Chef won’t be at the same level income wise as the average CEO. However, that does not make one better than the other. The point was people who are successful regardless of their individual career choice.
I think many women realize that making it to the top of the food chain in corporate america isn’t all it is cracked up to be. Many probably realize they would be happier raising their children or whatever and if they are in a position to do so, good for them.
“the average Chef won’t be at the same level income wise as the average CEO”
Just as comparing the average Food Network chef to your average MBA isn’t reasonable.
Being a success is not solely measured by how much money one makes. To me a top concert pianist who has worked so hard to get where she/he is at is an example of a successful career person. The discussion was about type A personalities and drive, not about income!
My professional is filled with single unmarried women so no, they’re not quitting their jobs and breeding, most of them can barely find a date for Saturday nights.
“I also think that the frequency with which highly-educated women stop working in their careers as soon as they can contributes to skepticism about the ambition of all women in these careers, which is really too bad.”
I’m not saying that CEOs are better than chefs, I’m saying that “chef” is not a profession that is associated with lots of money or prestige. Just because there are a hundred or so celebrity chefs who make tons of money doesn’t mean that it’s a prestigious or lucrative profession for the other 999,900 who make $50k a year or so. You could find a rich garbage man here and there but it doesn’t change how things are for most garbage men. This is not a value judgment – I’m just saying that there are obviously some people who have skewed ideas about the career trajectory of your average chef.
“What contributes to it as much is the repetition of this anecdotal “fact”.”
You’re preaching to the choir here, but I also understand why older professionals might hesitate to invest the time mentoring younger female professionals if they are statistically ten times as likely (or whatever) to leave the profession before they’re ten years out of school, as compared to similarly-situated young male professionals. People want to invest their personal and professional time and energy in those who they think will be around to pay back those dividends.
“My professional is filled with single unmarried women so no, they’re not quitting their jobs and breeding, most of them can barely find a date for Saturday nights.”
I no longer wonder why you protect your real identity so assiduously.
this is the internet. value and prestige vs. anonymous people is derived from saying that you 1) are involved at a high level in teh corporate world; 2) own a sfh with $10,000 + taxes in the green zone (or north shore) (sorry clio no one cares about oak brook); 3) having little connection or knowledge about how 95% of the population lives paycheck to paycheck.
“You’re preaching to the choir here, but I also understand why older professionals might hesitate to invest the time mentoring younger female professionals if they are statistically ten times as likely (or whatever) to leave the profession before they’re ten years out of school, as compared to similarly-situated young male professionals. People want to invest their personal and professional time and energy in those who they think will be around to pay back those dividends.”
I am apparently not preaching to the choir as that “understanding” gives them cover to ignore women across the board instead of taking the time to differentiate between those who are *actually* likely to leave versus stay–which is *exactly* what they do when the subject junior employee is a man.
“I am apparently not preaching to the choir as that “understanding” gives them cover to ignore women across the board instead of taking the time to differentiate between those who are *actually* likely to leave versus stay–which is *exactly* what they do when the subject junior employee is a man.”
Are you serious?
This is exactly why, when I am interviewing people, or deciding who to staff on a project, the first thing that I do is ask all the women if they are married and if they are planning on leaving my shop to have kids sometime soon.
I don’t think that anyone I know of who might hesitate to mentor a young female professional is looking for cover to avoid mentoring any women at all. Mentoring is a significant personal and professional investment, and I can’t say that it’s crazy to think about what the return on that investment is going to be before making it.
I consider myself a feminist, but I think that one of the problems with the US professional landscape is that we refuse to recognize that some differences in the ways that women and men approach life, society and business are consequences of biological and evolutionary differences and the choices that people make. Not all differences are a result of insidious discrimination.
“gives them cover to ignore women across the board”
who cares? what ever happened to ” a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle”? ha ha…
“This is exactly why, when I am interviewing people, or deciding who to staff on a project, the first thing that I do is ask all the women if they are married and if they are planning on leaving my shop to have kids sometime soon.”
Ummm…
“Are you serious?”
I am serious that that “understanding” does, in fact, get used as cover.
“I don’t think that anyone I know of who might hesitate to mentor a young female professional is looking for cover to avoid mentoring any women at all. ”
They don’t look for cover until they get sued. Until then, they just carry on how they like. That you don’t know anyone like that is a credit to your particular shop and the company you keep, but it doesn’t make it the norm.
“Ummm…”
I left that one alone.
If anyone has interviewed with JJJ and was turned down for a job because they planned on having children soon, I would be interested in filing federal discrimination suits on your behalf. Please post your name and e-mail address and I will respond according. I work on a contingency basis so you will not be required to pay any money unless I can recover from JJJ and his company.
just kidding, but you get the idea….
“own a sfh with $10,000 + taxes in the green zone (or north shore) (sorry clio no one cares about oak brook);”
It’s ok – I also own an in-town where taxes are over 10k, right? So I feel included!
“Also what do you know about my job or how good I am at it? You can argue on the point, but making personal comments does not add any more credit to your argument.”
Huh? You misread my comment if you think I made any comment or judgment about what you do or how good you are at it. Sorry.
The only one who appears to be making judgments is you when you say Type-A people do not sacrifice careers for family, which they clearly do at least in my (and others) experience.
“I also have a few examples of women who were working at McKinsey and prestigious law firms that quit and became stay at home moms and believe me none of them was going to make it to the top.”
The top of McKinsey? A 17,000 employee organization? Not many seats at that table (ratio is 17000:1 if my math skills are working — at that rate you are taking about). On our civilian labor force of 150M people that equates to fewer than 9,000 individuals in the U.S. who fit that rare a criterion. That is about 500 people in the Chicago metro region. I’d hazard a guess that there are probably a few more Type-A people out there. Surely you are just using an extreme example as to what Type-A is right?
Which is besides the point as I’d volunteer that they are already at the top. As for the top of another organization, ex-McKinsey folks run or ran over 70 of the Fortune 500. Add Bain and BCG to that list and that isn’t a bad track record (maybe another 50 more F500 CEOs). Coutless others run or ran mid sized companies or divisions of Fortune 500 companies (sometimes a far better gig).
Hell brand managers a few years out of business school run $1B+ P&Ls at some large CPG companies. I’d suggest the guy who runs Tide is effectively at the top.
“This is exactly why, when I am interviewing people, or deciding who to staff on a project, the first thing that I do is ask all the women if they are married and if they are planning on leaving my shop to have kids sometime soon.”
Right. Well, I do know some good labor lawyers if you’d like to consult on that one.
“I left that one alone.”
My comment was sarcasm in response to your idea about determining whether women are likely to leave the workforce. Doing so, including doing so in the way that I mentioned, is relatively easy to show as discriminatory.
In post-modern society, women outnumber men in institutions of higher education, they are pushing men hard in business management and the professions, women earn better grades in schools and in college, and they are increasingly preferred by HR to fill jobs that require intelligence, competency, and social and communicative skill.
Nowadays, there is an implicit rejection against the supposedly violent, disruptive, antisocial, war-toys-loving, anti-intellectual, mentally dull, lazy, and otherwise unimprovable and unredeemable members of the male sex. Anecdotal evidence suggests that men are taking the path of least resistance and are tuning out.
Post-modern society, which values the complaint and a lack-of-force nature of women in jobs, is of course is as unnatural as it is unsustainable over the long-haul. Women are by nature docile and thus willing to take orders from superiors. They are naturally socialized personalities, easily adapting to a managerial, bureaucratic society. They are inherently socialistic inclined toward political participation in the socialist society the postmodern world demands. They are conscientious, often to a fault, and typically obssessive in their jobs, laboring over post-modern tasks and responsibilities most men would be content to overlook and dismiss with contempt. But they are generally lacking in the masculine vision and heroic ambition that give rise to great achievements.
The post-modern world we live in is unsustainable (esp. financially, bureaucracy, etc.) so what happens when it crashes and mother nature reverts back to the mean? No more Nate Berkus and Janet Napolitano?
“was turned down for a job because they planned on having children soon”
Is that actually prohibited or best practice not to ask?
A lot of you appear to need to get that speaking “Internet commenter” Barbie that says “sarcasm is hard.”
“your idea about determining whether women are likely to leave the workforce”
Well, that’s the concept, right? And not bothering to do anything to that end is going to result in women who *are NOT* going to leave missing out on opportunities, at least with many men who don’t want to wade into that “minefield”*, no?
*my pejorative word choice, no one else’s.
“Is that actually prohibited or best practice not to ask?”
The prohibited practice is discrimination per se in accordance with federal laws that prohibit job discrimination.
But the sanctioned practice of asking those questions would likely leave you open to an investigation if the EEOC had anything to say about that.
Federal courts can be expensive places to hang out.
“Well, that’s the concept, right? And not bothering to do anything to that end is going to result in women who *are NOT* going to leave missing out on opportunities, at least with many men who don’t want to wade into that “minefield”*, no?”
My point is that the only fair way to avoid mistreating anyone is to mentor and promote without trying to determine whether someone will “hang around” or not, but that isn’t always going to be an attractive approach, especially to old dudes.
I think trying to find out someone’s intentions is the wrong approach – people change their minds and you’re likely to be wrong in your guesses anyway.
“I think trying to find out someone’s intentions is the wrong approach – people change their minds and you’re likely to be wrong in your guesses anyway.”
But that happens all the time, with everyone. I’ve been asked the question point blank, more than once, and more subtly fairly often.
“My point is that the only fair way to avoid mistreating anyone is to mentor and promote without trying to determine whether someone will “hang around” or not, but that isn’t always going to be an attractive approach, especially to old dudes.”
I agree, but don’t agree with giving the old dudes a pass, tho I recognize the difficulty (in most, if not all, its forms) in reality.
ps: Obviously not “are you going to get pregnant and quit to be a SAHM”, but equivalent direct questions about career plans from direct and indirect bosses.
Honestly, possibly the most competent person I ever worked with was a woman and someone who still remains a dear friend. With that said. I hate hiring woman or having had them anywhere near me at work. Every time you have a problem with one and want to get rid of them it seems to result in that lovely special meeting in how to best handle it and trying to remember who said what in front of who. F that!
…if they have lots of degrees from excellent schools I had no problem with hiring any woman.
“…if they have lots of degrees from excellent schools I had no problem with hiring any woman.”
You mean if they had a job where the “required” arbitration would be enforceable?
“You’re preaching to the choir here, but I also understand why older professionals might hesitate to invest the time mentoring younger female professionals if they are statistically ten times as likely (or whatever) to leave the profession before they’re ten years out of school, as compared to similarly-situated young male professionals.”
This is pretty stupid as you are suggesting that most older professionals expect these fresh out of the gate people to remain with the same organization for ten years for whatever reason. Such is not the case today. Sorry but if you’re mentoring someone expecting them to stick around for ten years you’re an idiot.
Also it’s been my experience that women are more likely to stick around an organization by default. IE: they’re not as likely to get fed up with the BS or not receiving the raise they wanted and to start looking.
Some of my friends who are the highest earners are guys who are constantly looking for another/higher level job in a different organization after being in their current one a couple years. They also move around a lot. The one I know best it was almost a hobby for him to come sit on his laptop and apply for jobs (every sunday) while we’re all watching football on a sunday. He’s now doing quite well, go figure. Women, generally, seem more content if their basic needs are met, whereas men are better able to deal with uncertainty and leaving the organization if it no longer works for me.
And I’d consider younger women more stable than older one’s who haven’t married by their mid-30s who always thought they’d be married and having a family by then. I’ve seen some real basket cases in that demographic–three women spontaneously cry at their cubes over my career and they’ve all fit into this category.
Younger women in the workforce, as a whole, still believe the college BS that they’re the exact same as men with the same needs and goals and tend to work just as hard. Its not until they get older that the truth between the genders becomes apparent to them.
Leave it as I have NEVER been called to HR to discuss my language or behavior, or coworkers for that matter, based on a complaint from a guy that was recently terminated.
“I think many women realize that making it to the top of the food chain in corporate america isn’t all it is cracked up to be. Many probably realize they would be happier raising their children or whatever and if they are in a position to do so, good for them.”
Yet in most universities it is stressed that women who do not aspire to the top of the food chain are somehow settling in life or selling themselves short. It is stressed at the university level that career advancement is preferable for females to being a SAHM, yet for some odd reason if you switch the genders the opposite is constantly talked about as being okay.
“Every time you have a problem with one and want to get rid of them it seems to result in that lovely special meeting in how to best handle it and trying to remember who said what in front of who. F that!”
That is somewhat troubling on many fronts. I dont know that I have ever run across a manager in one of our businesses who was either i) reluctant to hire or ii) relectant to hire, a woman. Other protected statuses, maybe, but never gender.
The most entertaining story was of a not so very nice female manager at one of my jobs. Nobody liked this lady–she had no people skills and was mean. This industry was going through rounds of successive layoffs year after year. She was able to avoid layoff because she would time (or via coincidence) her pregnancies to coincide with the layoffs. I always get a kick when recalling that scenario. She may have been a mean person but she certainly wasn’t dumb.
JMM.. You are more fortunate than I am.. 2 words to describe what I have encountered on multiple occasions…. Debrahlee Lorenzana.
“This is pretty stupid as you are suggesting that most older professionals expect these fresh out of the gate people to remain with the same organization for ten years for whatever reason. Such is not the case today. Sorry but if you’re mentoring someone expecting them to stick around for ten years you’re an idiot.”
I used mentoring as the example significantly because it is cross-employer, in many cases (especially with respect to an alleged “good old [boys or girls]”-type of network that is said to lead to the real advancement in professional America).
I could easily see how an older professional might be disappointed if a younger employer that he or she mentored decided to leave the profession, but some movement from job to job is expected and normal in the last 20 years. I personally don’t view having former colleagues, friends, mentors and mentees elsewhere in my industry. I’m too lazy to scroll up on my iPad, but I think that I talked about “leaving the industry” or “leaving the workforce.”
If you’re talking generally about the increasing “disloyalty” (no judgment, just descriptive) in the modern economy, then that’s more of an argument that whether women keep or stop working is not that significant a factor in the continued success of an institution, since there is higher turnover from male employees and from female employees leaving for similar jobs such that turnover from women leaving the workforce is not material.
“And I’d consider younger women more stable than older one’s who haven’t married by their mid-30s who always thought they’d be married and having a family by then. I’ve seen some real basket cases in that demographic–three women spontaneously cry at their cubes over my career and they’ve all fit into this category.”
What I’ve noticed is that really successful women often times find themselves having some serious man issues. Women are told to go out and conquer the world. However, culturally, they still want men who are bread winners. Many wind up being so successful and make so much more than their eligible dating pool that they have issues dating less successful men, yet they don’t want to date athlete/entertainer types either due to the lack of intellectual stimulation. The older guys with deep pockets rather have a ditzy 25-30 year old as a trophy wife so a lot of the middle age women find themselves with a successful career and no man in their lives hence the breakdowns. Many men find uber successful women abrasive and cold too which was needed to get themselves to the top.
“yet they don’t want to date athlete/entertainer types ”
There aren’t enough of these to go around…AND…
Most successful women in corporate America I’ve noticed are successful in spite of their looks, or at least certainly not because of them. IE: most are not gorgeous (not all are ugly, and depending on the industry there might be some really hot ones, but not in the one’s I’ve worked in).
Athlete & entertainer types are going to go for the gorgeous one’s as well, and a woman without a serious career is more likely to be dependent on them and tend to them better.
“Women are told to go out and conquer the world. However, culturally, they still want men who are bread winners. Many wind up being so successful and make so much more than their eligible dating pool that they have issues dating less successful men”
This is the fallacy of what is being taught in our universities & media. Case in point I have a quite smart friend who works in a service sector job (chef). He’s really good at what he does and pretty good looking to boot and not weird.
Has a helluva time getting subsequent dates from college educated girls because they perceive someone like him as “inferior” intellectually or in status to him (the intellectual part isn’t true in most cases).
There is a strong stigma associated with supposedly “modern” women dating below their formal education level, at least through undergrad.
Our society is messed up when a starving artist type with a BA in arts is perceived as a higher social status than, say a chef or plumber. Dan is right our society doesn’t appear that sustainable.
Oh & there’s also not enough “athlete & entertainer” successful types go around. They are a sliver of the population.
I think there is some truth that it is harder for very smart women who want a man at their level to find a mate, but I think the same is somewhat true for very smart successful men, who want smart successful and attractive partners as well. There are just fewer people that satisfy unicorn criterion like the real estate properties : )
But I have also noticed some of these woman are not willing to do any compromise, many men compromise on intelligence or drive and marry lovely nice looking women. I think highly successful women should learn this too. In fact, not every Hillary can find a Bill who is both smart, successful and attractive.
I’m still trying to figure out what (white) hetero men do in this macfag society where so much real production has been outsourced. The Hispanic/immigrant male has taken over all the menial labor, women seem to do everything else under the SVP level in offices, women do most of the gvt. clerical jobs, gay men have all the jobs in media. The only place I see the stereotypical male still left is on CNBC, in other words, in finance and the few CEO/entrepreneur spots. I think many others are tuning out completely and ending up in the limbo the african-american male has been in for years, with no place to fit in.
“The only place I see the stereotypical male still left is on CNBC, in other words, in finance and the few CEO/entrepreneur spots.”
Sales. Financial services.
This one looks like a decent deal for the price:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2801-S-Prairie-Ave-60616/home/14082945
“The only place I see the stereotypical male still left is on CNBC, in other words, in finance and the few CEO/entrepreneur spots.”
IT is mostly male.
Depends what kind of sales….in the current macfag economy, I am reminded of this hilarious quote by Donnie Deutsch (a perfect example of the post-modern male CEO):
http://cityfile.com/profiles/donny-deutsch
see 2nd paragraph starting: “With a team of young, creative staffers on board……”
that sums up what comprises the employment world today based on what our nation produces (i.e. nothing). Women have never had it so good, and probably won’t again after the debt supercycle ends and the US Dollar collapses, which will wipe out all the discretionary buying power people have for superfluous macfag type services/culture.
chuckdotcom:
Sabrina has posted on that place at least once, perhaps more
“Sabrina has posted on that place at least once, perhaps more”
Yeah, I just saw this:
http://cribchatter.com/?p=8563
Looks like it’s had quite the price cut in the last year. 850k-> 594k
“I’m still trying to figure out what (white) hetero men do in this macfag society where so much real production has been outsourced. The Hispanic/immigrant male has taken over all the menial labor, women seem to do everything else under the SVP level in offices, women do most of the gvt. clerical jobs, gay men have all the jobs in media. The only place I see the stereotypical male still left is on CNBC, in other words, in finance and the few CEO/entrepreneur spots. I think many others are tuning out completely and ending up in the limbo the african-american male has been in for years, with no place to fit in.”
1.) Is there a single thread in which you don’t divert conversation to Race?
2.) –
Wtf are you talking about. Most lawyers, doctors, accountants, car salesmen, computer programmers, small business owners, big business owners, and corporate executives are caucasian males. In fact, a huge percentage of the general college graduate workforce is Caucasian and Male. There is a vast difference between the employment and social strata of an African American Male and a Caucasian one.
“Fallacy of mood affiliation” prominently displayed on CC?
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/03/the-fallacy-of-mood-affiliation.html
#”Women have never had it so good, and probably won’t again after the debt supercycle ends and the US Dollar collapses, which will wipe out all the discretionary buying power people have for superfluous macfag type services/culture.”
“never had it so good”? Is that while we’re still earning $0.77 on the dollar compared to men doing the same work?
What bizarro-land are all you men living and working in? I’ve never seen such a bunch of hooey and BS in my life. If these are the actual beliefs about the world and women in it that you live your life by, I feel sorry for all the women in your lives; mom, sisters, wife, daughters, women co-workers.
“Is that while we’re still earning $0.77 on the dollar compared to men doing the same work?”
It’s math. There are no jobs that men cannot do that women do, however there are jobs that women cannot do, or do as well as men. Men and women are not equal.
The latest craziness is how there aren’t enough women generals in the military. Of course to become a general, one has to have been in combat. So, now, in the name of PC madness, the US military is going to increase the amount of females in combat. What insane country sends its mom, sisters, wife, daughters, women co-workers into combat in the name of “equality” when it’s a false premise anyway?
“small business owners”
I can attest that the vast majority of people in my seat (middle market business owners / operators or executives) are white males, regardless of industry. And if owned by a financial firm, I cannot imagine a whiter more male industry than private equity.
Sweeping statement Dan and it really depends. I’ve seen roles where depending on who they are interacting with having a woman with the right personality is preferable to any guy.
Case in point I know a small business owner who recently cleaned house with many of his employees (he’s prone to do that). One of them was a manager who was an attractive lady who did not get along with the other staff but was more of a backoffice person, but had great rapport with the suppliers/her customers.
Thing is she had very good rapport with one of the key suppliers–such a good rapport that she was getting big discounts for the business.
When the owner cleaned house and put some guy in there (equally capable of back office functions, but not able to sweet talk this one particular supplier), discounts went away.
Owner F’d up by not understanding the nuances of that situation. The discounts far in value exceeded whatever money the owner is saving by bringing someone in at x% less pay.
Sales & financial services are the exceptions though, JMM. And FS isn’t that large of an employer on an aggregate level.
“What bizarro-land are all you men living and working in?”
Et tu, logansquarean?
““Fallacy of mood affiliation” prominently displayed on CC?”
Good call, roma.
“It’s math. There are no jobs that men cannot do that women do”
Dan – I want to see you be a baby mama!
“Is that while we’re still earning $0.77 on the dollar compared to men doing the same work?”
You’re full of it, logansquarean. Maybe you should stop clinging to a statistic and possessing an entitlement mentality without first understanding the causal elements of such discrepancies?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703326204575616450950657916.html
“When the owner cleaned house and put some guy in there (equally capable of back office functions, but not able to sweet talk this one particular supplier), discounts went away”
Bob – Wow I have to commend you as I have been very busy and missed most of the last few months of CC postings. Things are settling down for the moment and I have found some time to enjoy the site. Each time I read your post over the last two days I was surprised by your statements.
You sound less like a pompous MBA brainiac that has all the answers and are now using real world examples of non-textbook situations. I have always believed that you were intelligent and well read but you appear more balanced and seem to be drawing more from real life experiences.
jp3Chicago, You obviously missed Bob’s 2:16 am, Sunday, anti-semitic rant. The one that Sabrina deleted without comment.
My ideology hasn’t really changed much jp3. I think perhaps you’re interpreting a more agreeable portion of it with being a “less pompous MBA brainiac that has all the answers”. I actually agree with Dan’s ideology generally.
However I was trying to caution Dan not to interpolate down to the individual level by making statements such as “There are no jobs that men cannot do that women do, however there are jobs that women cannot do, or do as well as men” as there certainly are jobs many women are capable of doing that many men aren’t. Such incorrect interpolation down to 100% of the population might make his entire ideology seem crazy to most even though I think there are some gems there.
His next sentence is absolutly right, however: “Men and women are not equal.” Despite what has been driven into our minds in K-college, men and women are not equal and not the same. They generally have different mindsets and different wants and needs. Reference my emotional Chernobyls above–I call it the SMACWS (single middle aged corporate woman syndrome).
If they are in their mid-30s or up and thought they’d be married and have kids by now and their personal life is a wreck, they are NOT fun to work with. Seeing a pattern here I build a chinese wall at first sign of severe emotional instability (ie: crying at cube for no reason, blowing up on a conf call out of the blue, etc).
At age 22 fresh out the gate it isn’t apparent to these recent college grads the genders are different and they think the world is their oyster and the ideological programming is still fresh in their minds, and perhaps a lot of it deals with men aging more graceful than women. Talk to them again at 35.
One of the biggest lies of the progressive movement is gender equality. Insofar as it pertains to both genders being able to perform most all tasks the other is surely. Insofar as it relates to what they desire out of life it’s not true at all.
“Insofar as it relates to what they desire out of life it’s not true at all.”
But (virtually) all men and (virtually) all women, as two separate pools desire the same things out of life?
“But (virtually) all men and (virtually) all women, as two separate pools desire the same things out of life?”
Not but considering both as a group there are meaningful, biologically driven differences.
“Sales & financial services are the exceptions though, JMM. And FS isn’t that large of an employer on an aggregate level.”
You sure about that? I show as many as 20M jobs out of 150M depending on how you look at it (accounting, professional services). Plus that doesn’t include the body shops.
haha bob if you think mid 30’s SMACWS’s are bad… you should try and deal with the menopausal women… uuuuugh!
“You sure about that? I show as many as 20M jobs out of 150M depending on how you look at it (accounting, professional services). Plus that doesn’t include the body shops.”
When I talk about FS I was referring to Wall Street. In terms of banking actually I’ve got the impression, from my anecdotal observations, it’s female heavy. Its only the wall street type FS jobs that have a 90/10 split. I’d bet retail banking has more females than males.
And I’d say it was more 60/40 or 70/30 F/M of people going to the accounting bodyshops straight out of my undergrad. There are plenty of women in accounting and corporate finance. There are plenty even at higher levels (ie: director/VP/SVP).
Much of the griping in the press seems to be on the C-level which I find humorous. In order to get to the C-level (aside from CFO) at large corporations I’ve found you need to have been a general manager to get there, which is essentially a mini, in-house CEO of a department/division.
This is a level that has a significant amount of career risk, probably more than even the top levels: if you can’t deliver what the C-level suits want in terms of financial performance/sales volume/other metrics you are gone and you get the blame for them missing numbers. It’s a bit of job security for the C-levels as they can goto the board and blame the earnings miss/non-performance on you. I think a lot of this risk leads to gender discrepancies via self-selection.
“There are plenty even at higher levels (ie: director/VP/SVP).”
Having worked out in Silicon Valley – I can tell you there are entire companies that don’t have a single woman in “management” of any kind. And those that did have women had them in two locations:
1. HR
2. Marketing
That is it.
Of course Silicon Valley is very male dominated.
You are right Bob that there are a decent number of women accountants at companies. The more interesting thing is HD’s profession (the law) where women now account for something like 55% of all law students but after 10 years into the profession they can’t be found at large law firms or even in-house. It’s like they all simply disappear.
“perhaps a lot of it deals with men aging more graceful than women.”
ha!
This is the funniest statement I’ve seen on here in a long time.
“Being president of some nonsense board made of bunch of stay at home mommies does not make one a business woman. Now being secretary of state does. These people have created their own little universe pretending to have some impact when in fact they have none in the grand scheme of things. Again would you have the same assessment if men were doing this BS?”
Miumiu: No man would call a man staying at home with the kids and on the PTA “type-A”. You are right on.
“perhaps a lot of it deals with men aging more graceful than women.”
lmao…says who? The fat old guy with the beer belly?
“haha bob if you think mid 30’s SMACWS’s are bad… you should try and deal with the menopausal women… uuuuugh!”
Or man in their midlife crisis that constantly harass younger women around them with inappropriate comments. I work in a predominantly male environment, while majority of my colleagues are great guys, I can tell you there are a few I have to constantly hide from to avoid having to throw up after I hear their comments. I would take the menopausal lady any day!
“Miumiu: No man would call a man staying at home with the kids and on the PTA “type-A”. You are right on.”
Exactly because deep down many of these man who pretend they believe in equality really feel women are inferior so they think being a full time mummy is ambitious enough for the “weak sex”!
“Or man in their midlife crisis that constantly harass younger women around them with inappropriate comments. ”
we have one of those at the place I work at… I feel embarrassed for him when he speaks, and I usually don’t give a hoot when anyone talks, but it is so bad with his craziness (mid 20 year divorce, two teen aged kids, 50 year old girlfriend he used to work with) oh its painful to watch (especially the dude and his new found schmoopyness for his wrinkly girlfriend… LOL
“Or man in their midlife crisis that constantly harass younger women around them with inappropriate comments.”
Due to the progressive society such people are dealt with very expeditiously by corporations I’ve worked in. It is VERY EASY to can a guy acting in such a way. Not so easy at all to can the emotional chernobyls I discussed above (until they blow up in front of the wrong person that is).
If you don’t like them call HR. Or if the younger ladies don’t appreciate the comments they should. Unless the guy is a rainmaker he’ll be gone or disciplined severely.
I wouldnt rent this place for 3k a month. The ceilings look to be about 8 feet, which is garbage for a penthouse. How many places in the city have yearly assessments that are almost 4x the yearly taxes. With assessments this high, this place should trade for a credit.