Single Family Home for a Condo Price: 3449 N. Paulina in West Lakeview
This single family home at 3449 N. Paulina in West Lakeview appears to have it all: 3 bedrooms, the all-important 2 baths (instead of just 1 or 1.5), central air, a backyard and a garage.
The listing says it is extra wide- with 20′ wide interior.
Many would consider this home to be a “condo-alternative.” Will this property be scooped up in the new era of low interest rates?
Mario Greco at Rubloff has the listing. See more pictures here.
See the virtual tour here.
3449 N. Paulina: 3 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, family room, 2 car garage
- Sold in September 1999 for $431,000
- Sold in October 2003 for $585,000
- Was originally listed in October 2008 for $649,000
- Reduced
- Currently listed for $624,500
- Taxes of $7009
- Central Air
Heck yea! I would buy it if I could and thow big keggers in the backyard and laugh at all the dumb condo loan-owners who paid the same price as me for a little shoebox.
That’s not Roscoe Village. It’s east of the railroad. West Lakeview.
And those 2d and 3d bedrooms are tiny–12×10 and 12×9. The master is 15×13, so it isn’t huge either. What did they do with all the 2d floor space? It does look like it’s pretty short, so you could blow out the back wall and add on a real master suite, etc. and still have a decent (city) backyard.
seems like a pretty low price for a nice looking place. is there a catch (like the small bedrooms) or are prices going down..
Prices are going down. The number of families who want to live in Roscoe Village and can afford to do so with 20% down and conventional financing is a small number and getting smaller by the day. Housing is returning to 1999 pricing. This price reduction is a small step in that direction.
taxes look too low to be true at $7k.
“taxes look too low to be true at $7k.”
Nope. That’s about right for the area with those prior sales prices. Of course, that’s including the owner-occupant exemption.
“The number of families who want to live in Roscoe Village and can afford to do so with 20% down and conventional financing is a small number”
And they aren’t looking at this house, as it is not in RV. Wrong side of the tracks; it’s in WLV.
Shitadel kicked out the Emerging Markets team today and Debt is next to go. BankofaMerrilca kicked out its commodity group. High end Chi-town will have a wonderful 2009. Can we get a posting of something nice-nice in the Hyatt Water Tower soon 🙂
“Housing is returning to 1999 pricing.”
Also, HD, are you contending 99 nominal pricing or 99 real pricing? Because, using the BLS CPI calculator, $431k in 99 is $549k in ’08 (and was $476k in ’03). $549k seems plausible, $431k is pretty catastrophic.
Indeed, the original asking price was **below** their real purchase price ($585k in 03 = $675k in 08).
No way in hell this place falls to 431k. HD by then I will have enough $ for a downpayment to buy it myself. I predict it will sell near ask, at least 590k.
“Shitadel kicked out the Emerging Markets team today”
Ze, that’s 8 (eight!) folks. You think that 8 people selling rather than buying is going to have that much of an impact. And were they really *that* overpaid?
anon(tfo):
If you knew anything about the compensation structures of the sales & trading staff of investment banks you wouldn’t be asking that question.
Considering they were gambling with shareholders money, they were *that* overpaid. Its heads they win, tails the shareholders lose. Someone fresh out of b-school working sales & trading can make 200k their first full year and 300k the next. All for risking firm (shareholder) capital. Five years in and you’re at a cool 700k.
Yes, they were that overpaid.
Just reinforces my theory that anybody who owned stock in a pure play investment bank was a big moron.
Not bad for price, 4-6 blocks south of there and you’re paying over a million dollars for a similar place. I live around there and its a great neighborhood, but the homes on my street are selling for 1.5 million plus! A similar unit a block south to what I am renting now is selling for 379k! I think i’ll keep renting for my 1500 a month…
“…they were gambling with shareholders money…”
Only if they were on a prop. desk.
House looks decent enough. I would def. like to live there.. Until the kids (non existent now) outgrow the rooms. Like the basement too. a nice place to get away from the lady-friend.
No Callebaut. How do you think these firms funded themselves initually and then ongoing? IPOs and issuing debt.
And if you think they were fully hedged if it wasn’t a prop desk that is a good one, too.
Howabout them warehousing the MBS they originated but couldn’t sell. Another instance of putting the firm’s capital at risk sans prop desk.
I think anon’s point was the 8 fired by citadel would have had to be paid enough to be big enough to impact the housing market.. which is sort of impossible.
“If you knew anything about the compensation structures of the sales & trading staff of investment banks you wouldn’t be asking that question.”
Oh, I know something; hence the *that*. I don’t think that the absence of 5 guys making $500k-750k is going to crater the high-end market. If all 8 of them were rolling $2-5mm+, that’s a bigger issue, as that sort of high-end is a much smaller market.
And the rest of your post is basically how I feel about it, too.
Citadel is an investment bank?
Of course, if Ze was referring only to “upper bracket” properties, and they were all *that* overpaid, then he may well be right. But that *was* my question–were those 8 paid enough to be in an expensive enough housing market that the presence of 8 more properties would affect the market? If so, how did they hang on so long?
Obviously 8 people aren’t going to affect the housing market but it’s a harbinger of things to come for the high end market.
Anon,
The point is that a lot of high paying jobs are just beginning to disappear. Every bank/consulting firm has these types of “departments” on their payroll. We have only begun to see the layoffs. Even accounting firms are taking a huge hit, and the accounting profession can be considered one of the most stable career paths.
Anyway, the layoffs will directly impact demand for these high end condos/homes. You think these people who are getting laid off will be able to find a great job in this market? They will probably have to change their career (teaching, government, etc) for the time being which will also force them to sell their high end condo/homes, directly impacting supply. What happens when each curve shifts? Simple economics.
My prediction has been since my first month of my posting on cribchatter is that housing prices will returning to pre-bubble pricing levels. I’ve explained a million times before why the real estate depression will continue until at least 2011 and prices will continue to decline so I won’t get into that here.
This was a $431k home in Sept 1999, and in a few years comps will be selling in this general price rang give or take 10-15%. It’s tough to predict with absolute accuracy.
Sure, inflation is a factor in price but given that wages have been fairly stagnant (let’s not argue the veracity of that claim right now but let’s just accept it as being true) and it’s painfully obvious there is no shortage of available housing (or land) – there’s no fundamental reason why housing shouldn’t return to pre-bubble affordable prices.
I like this place. The floorplan’s not the best, but at least the price is reasonable. I think it’ll go pretty fast. There was a dumpy mint-greenish house on the market a few months back (I think it was only a few houses away) that I had been keeping an eye on because it was one of the cheapest single family homes in the area at around 450K…but it’s off the market now. When I can get an ugly house or townhouse near the red or brown line with no assessments, a little outdoor space, and a garage for 350K or less, I’ll be very excited.
And before you jump on my case about stagnant wages only when adjusted for inflation….what about people who make less money now than a few years ago? I’m sure there are plenty of people, the shill included, who make signficantly less today than they did in 2003 or 2004. Even today I know professionals that are hurting and are having a difficult time collecting bills.
just heard ClearChannel Radio Sales (233 N Michigan) just announced massive layoffs… letting 9 year sales vets go.
I’m def. making less money. Sales are slow. luckily i still have a job, though
“Obviously 8 people aren’t going to affect the housing market but it’s a harbinger of things to come for the high end market.”
Perfectly said with exception of things to come…. It is what is happening.
Bonuses off 30-50% Morgan Stanley. Goldman waaaaayyyy down… Ice shares falling precipitously as well as the net worth of the equity holders (remember the CEO Palmolive Bldg apt sale). Oh not to mention all the lavish parties I haven’t seen an invite to for a while. Merrill kicking thousands. B of A the same. State Street and just about every hedge fund getting drained hard. Great idea holding back redemptions. Fucking GENIUS!!! Nothing like finding out you can’t get your money back. Remember the investors in hedge funds are the best financed so they learn fast they are buying a liability all of a sudden. Not going to rush to put that money back, ya think? Shitadel is just an example. They had traders pulling 5-10 mil sign bonuses. Think Kenny boy down a good 40-50% this year. Yeah it will freakin hurt!!! The layoffs at the high end have been coming fast and furious every day now. I said two months ago on here when they started that I had never seen anything like it. It is actually accelerating rapidly now. Just amazing.
And anon it just takes one that MUST get out to destroy comps. It will not be just one. One convo I’ll never forget from a book….
Guy who is stuck long -“I’ll just sell”
Wiser older man – “Yes, but to whom?”
I’d say about 30% of my friends are looking for new jobs. Pretty crazy if you ask me. And most of them bought homes less than 3 years ago.
The mere fact that MS was able to pay bonuses at all is disgusting. Those were our taxpayer dollars going directly into the pockets of wall street highflyers. Those employees making 500-700k? Well our taxpayer dollars just bought them another year.
Morgan Stanley doesn’t deserve to exist and I hope they get routed again in 2009. I can’t wait until Hank Paulson is out of office: he is the worst Treasury Secretary in the history of this nation. Stealing from the poor to give to the rich I hope misfortune befalls on him.
Yeah those Merrill guys will be buying it all up with their new Spirit Point awards they now get from B of A
“I’ll pay 70% of listing price and throw in 50,000 spirit points.” … ROFLMAO
“[Hank Paulsen] is the worst Treasury Secretary in the history of this nation”
Worse than Mellon? Only time will tell. Certainly not worse on the reverse-Robin Hood . . . yet.
But think Bob.. the ones in NYC 54% goes back immediately to taxes. Then 10% of any purchases during the year which I bet is the rest. So over 60% of that to taxes. Avg cost of a 2 bedroom in Manhattan??? 1.9+ mil..
So, HD, since it seems it’s hard for you to answer an either/or question with one of the options, I’ll summarize:
HD sez that housing will return to 1999 nominal prices.
Thus, the implication is that this property was overpriced by ~$100k in 1999, in real dollars ($431,000 in 2008 = $338,000 in 1999).
ah anon.. what’s to say when you pull the rug out from underneath real prices were not also equally artificially inflated? Time will tell on that one too.
Ze,
Only the youngins, fools, and those too rich to care live in NYC. If you don’t live in NYC you avoid the 12% city tax, even if you work there.
And if taxes are too high in that district thats not my problem anyway. Those companies decided to be based there.
As for the price of a 2-bdrm, well it was slightly under a cool mill a few years ago, but maybe with the bubble I guess it could’ve doubled. NYC real estate is going to tank so hard its going to make Chicagoland look like Disneyland.
“what’s to say when you pull the rug out from underneath real prices were not also equally artificially inflated? Time will tell on that one too.”
Duh. And so to wages. What’s to say that, when you pull the rug out, everything was not equally artificially inflated? What has fundamental value in dollar terms?
Exports, perhaps? It’s hard to export a house.
“Exports, perhaps? It’s hard to export a house.”
What the hell do we export that isn’t IP*? And I suppose exports aren’t inflated in dollar terms, becuase the dollar is artificially inflated itself.
*I would contend that all IP valuations are artificially inflated (entertainment IP by the costs of drugs and loose women, which are artificially inflated by the costs of the war against them and drugs, the rest of it mostly by the cost of real estate on the west coast and in NYC).
Food, chemicals and let’s not forget the largest export by volume, waste paper.
“waste paper”
Well, that’s a market that’s gone to hell. And food and chemicals have both been artificially inflated by the artificial inflation of the price of oil.
We export dark matter, obviously.
I was really hoping for waste paper to save us.
I didn’t realize poor people in this country pay taxes, so I continue to have a hard time understanding how the poor is funding this bailout as so many of you think.
I find it comical how people simply do not grasp the fact that lay-offs at higher levels trickle down. The emerging markets desk at C, was most likely supported by several back office staff that are probably no longer needed either, and by the way the back office staff over their don’t make bad money either, those are the type guys supporting the 300K-500K RE market in Chicago. In addition it probably lightened the load of one or two outside general counsels. Layoff the debt desk and the same thing happens. The guys at the top will be fine, they should have lots of coin in the bank, however, the support staff losing their jobs is what is going to push the RE market even farther down. You can apply this to law firms as well, cut 15-20 partners and there isn’t much of a need to keep a bunch of Para legal’s and assistants on staff either.
“I was really hoping for waste paper to save us.”
It still might. Think we can evolve to digest cellulose quickly enough?
Well according to liberals, “trickle down economics” is just a myth.
This house is on a standard lot, but the house itself does not have much depth. The yard is enormous and I’d say the house takes up less than 50% of the lot depth (easily), so you’d have to expand the house for it to compare to the sq footage of all the newer homes which sacrafice yard for floor plan sq. ft.
Hahahahah! as you can probably tell we have vastly different professions.
more specifically by 1999 prices I mean nominal. of course at the bottom this house won’t be exactly $431,000 dollars but you get the idea that prices are coming down, way down.
any by the way, we export democracy and freedom around the world. 😉
“anon (tfo) on January 8th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
So, HD, since it seems it’s hard for you to answer an either/or question with one of the options, I’ll summarize:
HD sez that housing will return to 1999 nominal prices.
Thus, the implication is that this property was overpriced by ~$100k in 1999, in real dollars ($431,000 in 2008 = $338,000 in 1999).”
I’ve been a lurker here for months, and finally have a observation to add! I don’t know much about real estate, but I thought the “3rd bedroom” of this home was a bit odd – it’s adjoining the family room, and there is no door to this “bedroom”. It looks only a few feet from the couch in the family room photo.
Also, I hope that dining room table is just really large, because it looks like it’s almost pushed up against the wall to make enough space to walk between the bar and the table.
There are some other really nice aspects of the home as well, of course, and as a native Oregonian used to lots of space, I’m always pleased to see a nice little backyard in the city.
“we export democracy and freedom around the world”
Another bubble.
And of course it won’t be *exactly* $431k, and $431k was probably on the high side in ’99 (likely would have rented for ~$2100-2400; lived in a somewhat smaller but similar place fairly nearby at the time), but probably not $100k high. I think that if there is general deflation OR mortgage rates return to the double-digits, you could be right. I also think that if either of those things happen, it’s going to be really, really ugly and I’ll probably wind up farming dirt in central Maine.
$417,000 (max jumbo) + 20% down is = $521k
That would be my guess as to what this beautiful home will sell for. Also that is approx, 2002 pricing.
Every keeps thinking that they’ll be living off substitance if housing prices drop to 1999 pricing from 2006 highs. I don’t buy it. All it means is that housing prices will be cheaper for the masses. Remember half the country owns their home outright and was completely unaffected by the housing bubble.
The fact of that matter is that there are just too many houses out there with millions more in the pipeline and not enough buyers. Homes can go below the cost of new construction – it means they stop building new homes until prices rise again. in this economy buyers are few and far between and it will continue to stay this way until prices drop. I don’t see any sort of artificial plateau out there where homes cannot drop below, especially if its a REO The bank has every incentive to sell it as quickly as they can so they can move along to the next REO.
I found the green place I was talking about on the MLS. I guess it’s still available. The address is 3447 N. Paulina and the list price is 429,500. Architecturally, it’s not as nice as 3449, but neither of them are going to be featured in Architectural Digest any time soon. I wonder if having a dump two doors down for 200K less hurts their chances of getting 600K. Or does someone look at the dump and figure 200K more isn’t bad for a bigger place that’s move-in ready?
I don’t know what they think. 2 years ago dumps were tear downs and worth land value alone. i.e. the $429k price.
Since they won’t be building any new homes for years, your green dump is no longer a tear down and has residential value. What is the value for a dump? $429k my a$$; who the hell wants to buy a dump? Nobody will be rehabbing and flipping either – no bank’s gonna lend for that market.
I imagine we’ll get the answer to your question eventually…$300? $250? $100k as an reo? The dumps in the neighborhood north of mine had land value two years ago in the $200’s and $300’s….today I see a handful of small teardowns in the $160’s and they ain’t movin.
“having a dump two doors down”
3447 and 3449 are next door to each other. Yeah, it affects it, if they look similar on the outside.
I hadn’t noticed the floorplan on the listing. The floor area is small and the third bedroom doesn’t have a closet. The second full bath is in the basement. It’s about 30 feet long, so less than 1800 sqft, less stairs, etc. This would be a primo place to make 20 feet deeper, but only if you could get it for $450 instead of $625. Cute little house, but cute little houses in nice parts of Chicago shouldn’t be more than $450 (yeah, I know, I’m agreeing with HD after giving him crap).
regarding pricing being good or not, a quick look at the floor plan makes it appear that the footprint of the house is no larger than 30×20. so 1,200 sf of above grade space and 600 sf of basement. say $300 psf (generous) for top two floors and $150 psf for basement and you’re at $450k. perhaps a small premium for it being a stand alone house? max $500k.
anon (tfo) beat me to it. oops.
Bob.. Sounds like you have now joined HD and I on the “going to be a particularly bad year on the high end” (if you were there before and I missed it, my apologies) 🙂
Saks Inc. 19.8 percent drop for the month. Neiman Marcus – 27.5 percent same-store sales.
I remember in ’92 starting work and looking at a 2 bedroom duplex with private roof deck in Tribeca of all places for $250k.
It is amazing to me how those without facts jump on to the media frenzy/hype. I like others think upper bracket housing in chi-town has some downside but: Citadel is a hedge fund that performed poorly. It is an investment company so they are paid to invest their clients money. They had a bad year. To talk about Citadel and Morgan Stanley as like businesses is preposterous. Sort of like looking at Ford Motor and Apple – they both sell things to consumers. You can rant about the pay but then again you should also start a rant on pro athletes while you are at it. As for Merrill, they are lucky if they are still employed – no reason to bad mouth B of A – it’s still with us. One thing you haven’t heard much of in the news is how the private trading firms in Chicago did in this meltdown – from all I have been told they faired very well.
So while there is gloom and doom in the media we as individuals need to think in a more balanced way. Did anyone think Linens and Things or Circuit City were viable businesses even if everything had been rosy?
One of the biggest hedge funds in the world doesn’t just close down if things are “fairing very well”
““Combined with negative performance and complete liquidations, the entire hedge fund industry started 2009 at close to 50% of the capital it was at the beginning of 2008.””
http://www.finalternatives.com/node/6545
and
Hedge Fund Research, a Chicago-based information company, said the number of hedge funds liquidated in the third quarter rose to 344, which is more than three times the 105 liquidations in the third quarter of 2007. It’s also 77 more than the previous record of 267 liquidations in the fourth quarter of 2006.
The data also showed that 693 hedge funds were closed in the first nine months of the year versus 409 in the same period last year. That’s an increase of 70% and represents nearly 7% of all hedge funds, according to HFR.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/18/news/economy/hedge_fund_liquidations/
So almost 1000 hedge funds go out of business in 2008, and that isn’t going to effect things? oooook!
Hmmm… lacks facts? how so? Au contraire mon frere…
Ford and Apple… same to me right now also.. Don’t need another Ipod here.. how bout you? (I want to say same about Ford but humorously have my eye on something right now so I can’t)
Shitadel was throwing their weight into everything the past two years. Shitadel invests their clients money, MS invests their stockholders money. Both leveraged out the ass with massive trading desks also… I see parallels.
If they auction it I just want the big statue in front of the bldg to put near the giant tilted E i have in storage. 🙂
And stu I didn’t rant at all about the pay.. I just said it aint continuin no mo’and dat gunna hurt!!
Oh and if B of A marked their book for real, like I said over a year ago before any of this fell apart… THEY ARE INSOLVENT!!!!!
Don’t worry Ze Kenny boy made damn sure and well he got too big to fail. After his Countrywide acquisition people probably started raising eyebrows so he figured it was all or nothin’ by the time the ML deal came around. Who cares about the price they paid as long as he was getting too big to fail he knew he could get a sweetheart deal like Citigroup got courtesy of the US taxpayers.
Who says BofA is insolvent? They are destined to be backstopped by the Treasury and Fed. So while they may be insolvent thats like saying a millionaire’s kid is poor. Sure he may be but I guarantee mommy & daddy can come up with some crazy bail money.
Which leads me to this observation. If a private institution becomes “too big to fail” I don’t understand why they aren’t immediately broken up. I guess taxpayers and congress are too docile to see this and demand change.
I don’t want any private corporation in America to be ‘too big to fail’. Obviously we desperately need legislation prohibiting corporations from getting so big so as to pose systemic risks to the economy.
Bob.. Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, history has dictated that ultimately nothing or no one is too big to fail.
Now I must find the college game pirated somewhere on the internet so I can enjoy it on a 3 inch flat screen… when life hands you lemons… make lemonade 🙂 I’m in a surprisingly good mood for still being dry.
oh foxsports.com.. life is good!!
Thanks to all who pointed out this property isn’t in Roscoe Village- but it’s West Lakeview. The post has been corrected.
In retrospect, it would have been better for the economy overall if Countrywide had been allowed to fail. Nobody deserved it more. An early failure of that size would have clued people in to how serious the problems were and possibly ended this recession sooner. Eventually, we’ll have to end this “no big bank may fail” policy and that is when the real pain will begin.
Who says BofA is insolvent? They are destined to be backstopped by the Treasury and Fed.
————————————————
Bob, you mean like Fannie and Freddie were back stopped? Ask their stockholders how they fell about this backstopping.
01/08/09
FNM: $0.79
FRE: $0.78
how they fell=how they feel
crazy frog,
In terms of valuing a business it’s best to use enterprise value. It means basically that common shareholders get whatever is left over, if anything.
I understand it’s not great but shareholder’s stand to profit handsomely if the business is successful.
Fannie & Freddie’s bondholder’s were backstopped because the bond market always _assumed_ they would be backstopped, going back decades. This was assumed despite that the federal government had never made that explicit guarantee. Our government realize the havoc this would cause so jumped in.
To be honest I believe it might’ve been a better long term solution to just let them default like a normal non-protected company. Pay pennies/dimes on the dollar for their debt and send a message to stakeholders that assumptions can be loss bearing.
Nobody cares about the price of FNM or FRE stock. Yes it will goto maybe, its already close. But guess what their bondholder’s positions will goto to par value despite their terrible business decision, and that is the real travesty.
They both knew they would be bailed out so they securitized crap loans is the gist of it. If you want to know who the highest paid federal employees were for the 2004-2007 period look no further than the senior management of FNM & FRE.
* Remember half the country owns their home outright and was completely unaffected by the housing bubble.*
Huh? I have to question you on that one HD.
“* Remember half the country owns their home outright and was completely unaffected by the housing bubble.*
Huh? I have to question you on that one HD.”
It is about half of those who own, own w/o any mortgage. And if you don’t have a loan secured by your house, you’re not directly affected by the run-up and crash in values. But “completely unaffected”, even w/r/t their individual housing situation, is a bit of an overstatement, methinks.
Huh. I don’t no why but that is a much higher stat then I expected. Where do you get?
Okay, my recollection was off. The number is ~31%.
It’s aggregate net equity (i.e., total vlaue less total mortgage balances) that’s about 50%–but that is even down to 44.7%, as of Q3-08.
That sounds more reasonable. Wish I was in that 31%!
“Remember half the country owns their home outright and was completely unaffected by the housing bubble.”
Hey, we are affected because our house lost value and it is difficult to sell.
Difficult to sell I’ll agree with. But affeccted because you house lost value? Don’t let your house’s appraised value influence your financial decisions. A house is an illiquid asset and I fear that many Americans are like yourself and were using zooming estimates of their house value as a wealth effect and increasing their consumption accordingly.
“Hey, we are affected because our house lost value and it is difficult to sell.”
So Bob should I ignore the value of a stock portfolio… If I had one??
Ze, a stock portfolio is not illiquid. It also provides no convenience yield, unlike real estate. Real estate as an “investment” is not an optimal financial and estate planning strategy.
But yeah if you had restricted shares or stock options or a forward contract above water, european exchange traded options, etc same thing applies: don’t count your chickens before they hatch there either. American options can be counted though, not just because we bathe more but also they are exercisable at any time 😀
Checking in on the chatter while I take a short break from studying for my Series 7… next thing you know i get a nice refresher on the difference between American and European options. Thanks, Bob, I’ll think of you when that comes up on the exam. 🙂
Bob, so if I own an American 40 call and sell a European 40 call and the underlying is 50 I should mark only the one I am up on. Cool!!
I always thought you could value the early exercise premium, where is our VIX option expert when we need him. Who was that again?
Bob… I guess what I am trying to point out is that liquidity is more risk oriented than value oriented. An OTM option Euro or Amer will trade at the exact same price. Deep in the money there will be more of a difference but interestingly enough that has much more to do with the cost of having to carry the paid for premium to expry than not being able to exercise it, since I can easily hedge out the price risk.
This closed in February for $600,000.
3447 next door just went on the market for 349k! Looks like an estate sale.