A Victim of the Bad Market? 2057 N. Seminary in Lincoln Park
This 3-bedroom duplex down unit at 2057 N. Seminary in Lincoln Park has been on the market for 16 months.
It is now listed $90,000 less than its original listing price and under its 2005 selling price.
It seems to have it “all”- including central air, washer dryer, large square footage- except it doesn’t have parking.
Is this property just a casualty of a falling market?
Bob Safranksi at Saffron Realty has the listing. See more pictures and a virtual tour here.
Unit #1: 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1800 square feet, duplex down
- Sold in April 1998 for $194,000
- Sold in February 2005 for $414,250
- Originally listed in July 2007 for $464,900
- Reduced numerous times
- Listed at $399,900 in October 2008
- Reduced in October 2008 to $374,900
- Currently listed at $374,900
- Assessments of $180 a month
- Taxes of $3400
- Central Air
- W/D
- No parking
No parking in LP? Forget it.
No parking in LP? No thanks.
Nice unit if you don’t mind spending 90 minutes everyday looking for parking. I’ll pass. Why did they pay 414 for a unit with no parking?!
Because real estate only goes up. You have to get in it, to win it.
Its still 1800sf. Assuming the taxes could come down given the reduced sale price and parking was available to lease within a half mile I might bite if I was in a position to own.
$200/sf for LP and its not a dump seems like a deal to me. I bet it sells at or near ask. Wow I’m bullish again!
Disclaimer: also I love Seminary street. I frequently walk it about a mile north and its exactly the kind of tony place I’d like to live.
Anyone that bought a place in any of these dense neighborhoods without a parking space will have a pretty hard time even breaking even. I’ll say it now and i’ll say it again, never ever buy a place without a parking space, even if you don’t have a car.
The ceiling in the basement appears to be 7ft tall, also a lot of the square footage of the apartment is in the basement. No windows with constant risk of flooding/leaks (originally built in 1920), no thanks!
You would want parking with the way the DePaul students flock to park around here. and with the meters going up on campus it will only increase parking congestion.
So Daley’s bid to increas revenues for the city will hurt the consumer. and oh yea – its zone 143 so the city tickets like crazy in this hood!
Give this a pass unless you can find parking
No parking is a big deal. We live on Lake Shore Dr. with no parking, so we have to arrange things around when and where we can park. I think parking is big deal in these neighborhoods.
That’s probably why it’s not selling–at least one of the reasons.
I guess we all agree on that one…
This looks like former commercial space turned into a unit. I would have thought the ceilings would be higher and more loft-like from the exterior shot. It just doesn’t, quite frankly, look like an attractive living space.
I disagree with you guys about the parking. You can buy a place without parking if you don’t need it–just don’t pay the same price as for a place that DOES have parking. Sure, it sells for less, but you also bought it for less, so who cares? It’s like the adages “don’t buy in a bad school district” or “don’t buy a garden unit.” Why not? Such places are sold at significant discounts relative to others. Why would you pay for an amenity you have absolutely no interest in? (Says the woman who happily owns in a garden unit, in a shitty school district, with no parking–and gladly pocketed the difference in price.)
re: Basement height–there are 9 steps from the ceiling to the floor. The height of the risers *shouldn’t* be more than ~7″-7.5″–8″ would be stretching and lead to a steep staircase. If the risers are 8″ (i.e., too tall already), then you have a **SIX** foot ceiling. That being ridiculous (it has to be at least 6’6″, right?), this place has a bad combo of treacherous stairs and a low ceiling.
So, having half the living space being built for molemen (dark and low-ceilinged) is a big problem. Also, it looks like the two upstairs BRs both basically open into the kitchen–also undesireable to many people (or, at least, me).
Basement space shouldn’t be valued at same price as conventional above-ground habitable space. Even w/drywall and carpeting, basements are inferior living space, prone to mustiness, damp, and hidden mold due to water infiltration from slab and foundation walls. So its not a 1800 SF unit; is it really 1000 SF or less?
Secondly, the gut rehab removed all character and charm from the unit. It’s a drywall box with Home Depot-quality features. Poor seller probably bought at the height of the market, thinking that it was “buy now or lose forever” at the over-valued price, and now stuck with a condo unit that has no particular charm and no precious parking space.
“Buyer beware” comes back to haunt so many sellers now.
garden level duplex down— it shows very dark…a definite lack of natural light alone would keep my from purchasing. Add in no parking, and builder’s grade finishes and you are limiting people who own cars and people with good taste.
“I disagree with you guys about the parking. You can buy a place without parking if you don’t need it–just don’t pay the same price as for a place that DOES have parking. Sure, it sells for less, but you also bought it for less, so who cares? It’s like the adages “don’t buy in a bad school district” or “don’t buy a garden unit.” Why not? Such places are sold at significant discounts relative to others. Why would you pay for an amenity you have absolutely no interest in? (Says the woman who happily owns in a garden unit, in a shitty school district, with no parking–and gladly pocketed the difference in price.)”
Or Kenworthey, you can finance your parking space over a period of 30 years, and RENT IT OUT for extra cash. Not buying a parking space even if you don’t have a car is idiotic. I recently bought a place and I expect to get over $200 a month for my parking spot. And if nobody wants to rent it, oh well, my mortgage is an extra $100 a month and I have a spot for when people come and visit me.
Let’s talk about the back door in the bedroom.
“Let’s talk about the back door in the bedroom.”
Heh. So you could call this a 1 BR + Office + Den.
“Basement space shouldn’t be valued at same price as conventional above-ground habitable space.”
So, say it’s split 1000 up, 800 down. The up at $225/ft, the down $100/ft (plus whatever room-based adjustments)? Fair?
Never ever buy a place without parking. Most Chicagoans have at least one car and the vast majority of people are going to want a parking space even if you don’t need it. Not having a parking space is a kiss of death to most buyers these days. It simply is a deal killer at this price point for most people. No parking is on par with views of gas stations, living above night clubs, have one bath, located next to the highway, backing up to the EL, walkups on Western, and all the other sins of not buying with having to sell it at some point in mind.
It amazes me that people will sacrifice things like parking and logical floor plans just so they can live in Lincoln Park when they can get a nicer place elsewhere with similar amenities.
anon (tfo) — I don’t see why the logic of buying a parking space to rent it out is any more sound than buying a condo to rent it out. If the price is right, fine, treat it as an investment like any other. But I rented a parking space in my parking garage last winter, for instance, and the going rental rate was $174–or exactly the cost of the assessment and taxes. The spaces themselves *sell* for $25,000, which means that the owner was losing money every month by renting to me. This year, I’m not renting a space and instead am parking on the street–and street parking is abundant where I live except between the hours of 8:00 and 5:00 weekedays, when I’m at work, anyway.
You say that not buying a parking space is “idiotic.” Don’t you think your language is maybe just a weeeee bit strong? Who’s the idiot–the person who financed a space for $25,000 and pays an additional $174 a month in taxes and assessments, or me? I’m willing to shovel a lot of snow for about $300 a month in savings.
Edumaketed and anon (tfo) — it is *always* an issue of price. You pay less for units without parking; you sell for less on the other end. You’ve avoided paying all the carrying costs for an amenity you don’t use in the meantime.
K:
Wasn’t me. And tho I agree that buying w/o parking needs to include a discount greater than the price of parking, I wouldn’t call it “idiotic”.
ooops–sorry, anon (tfo)! I redirect those comments to sonies. 🙂
There are some areas where not having parking isn’t a big deal. When I lived in A’ville, I could park on the street in front of my condo at 6pm. Even though I had tandem parking, it was often easier to park on the street. However, in most popular neighborhoods, parking on the street is a PITA. I wouldn’t even consider buying a unit with no parking in most areas of LP, I don’t care how nice the place is. You would be surprised how much people value some of the little things in making their purchase decision, particularly as you start getting up above $300k. A parking spot could be the difference between being on the market 2 months versus 1 year. In a market where there is plenty of inventory to choose from, buyers are simply not going to make unrepairable sacrifices like lack of parking. When buying you also need to consider how easy it is going to be the sell the place too, not just if you like it lest you are going to be liking it a long time.
“You say that not buying a parking space is “idiotic.” Don’t you think your language is maybe just a weeeee bit strong? Who’s the idiot–the person who financed a space for $25,000 and pays an additional $174 a month in taxes and assessments, or me? I’m willing to shovel a lot of snow for about $300 a month in savings.”
What additional assessments and taxes? If the person is paying you $174 to pay for something that costs $174?
It is idiotic because if you ever plan to sell your place down the road why would you want to limit the interested buyers in your property intentionally by not purchasing an available spot in the first place? And its not like you need to do any maintenance on your parking space, its different than renting out an entire apartment.
My view is you should get a discount ~20% over the price of parking to go w/o outside of maybe Streeterville/GC where the carless-by-choice are much more likely to live.
I just looked at the streetview, definitely former commercial space with pokey little windows. Probably never really had any vintage ‘charm’ other than maybe a tin ceiling.
I will never get a place without parking again. My car is always safe and warm in my garage.
Sonies: even after you buy your parking place, if it is deeded, and in a garage, you will be paying both a monthly assessment and property taxes. In my building’s case, the parking garage assessment and taxes are $174/mo. You must pay this over and above the cost of the space itself. (To finance a $25,000 parking space, you will be paying close to $100 a month in interest over the life of the loan–that is, close to $30,000 in interest to own that $25,000 parking space over 30 years.) In other words, in completely dead-weight, unrecoverable loss, the owner of the space I rented was paying close to $300 a month to own it. I paid him only $174. He was losing money every month (and is losing even more now that it is empty).
Moreover, many people living in the areas we talk about on this site do not own cars at all. My first four years in Chicago, I had no car. Of my friends today, about half have cars (and they are mainly yuppies).
Again, it is all about price. Why pay for something you do not need or want? Let’s say my place *does* take an extra couple of months to sell because it has no parking place (which if I’ve priced it correctly, I doubt would be the case). I’ve saved thousands of dollars during the time I lived in my unit to compensate for that risk.
Kenworthey, what the hell are is the $174/month paying for?! That seems rediculously high for taxes and assessments on a parking space. Is the spot vallet? Do they wash the car too? That just seems much to high for a parking spot alone.
$174 is both taxes and assessment. I agree with you it is a little high (it covers heat and maintenance of the garage, which includes lighting, a car wash bay, garage door openers, an attendant for a few hours at night, the building and driveway). There is a mortgage that is being paid off to pay for some repairs to the building a few years ago.
But the amount isn’t *that* high. I believe taxes plus assessment that my friends pay downtown amount to about $125-150.
Oh, and no, it is not valet, you’ve gotta wash it yourself, and the parking garage is run as a co-op (if that last matters, which it shouldn’t).
We need to rely less on cars anyway so if you live near an EL and bus route it is less of a deal. People in Chicago are so car focused, unlike NYC where you don’t need or want a car.
$174 is very high. Assessments and taxes for my deeded space are $76/month and it is a heated garage downtown.
I know where Kenworthy lives….
nd — Hyde Park.
Also, nd, with a name like “Kenworthey,” I’m not exactly the most anonymous person on this board. 😉
Eh, no, I know which building.
yeah? You my neighbor? I love my building–filled to the brim with batshit crazies who I find completely endearing! 🙂
$76/month is still $76/month, not to mention the mortgage interest on the square of asphalt the seller includes in the sale. Moreover, I haven’t seen parking values skyrocketing in Lincoln Park.
Like Kenworthey said, unless you’re making use of the spot, buying and holding it just so you can resell it later at a similar price isn’t cost-effective. sure, you’ll sell your unit for less, just as you bought it for less in the first place.
Eh, no, not a neighbor. But that sounds like ALL of HP-K. It’s either (from garage knowledge) VH or MG (I think that’s the name). Unless my knowledge about garages down there is less than I think. It’s a great building, though – very colorful neighbors.
It’s not VH–but you do have the name wrong on the other building. 🙂 Yes, very colorful neighbors, and a very well-run building (both are, actually–ours is better because self-managed, and self-managed *well*). Touche on it describing all of HP-K, though! The only reason I’ve looked into moving downtown is safety. Everything else I simply adore about where I am.
I can never remember its name (your building). But now that the WW of VH is gone, safety will go way up. Heh heh.
Sorry, in-joke about Kenworthey’s ‘complex’…
Kenworthey: “Again, it is all about price. Why pay for something you do not need or want? Let’s say my place *does* take an extra couple of months to sell because it has no parking place (which if I’ve priced it correctly, I doubt would be the case). I’ve saved thousands of dollars during the time I lived in my unit to compensate for that risk.”
In terms of resale, I think you would be making a big mistake. If there are, let’s say, 100 potentially interested buyers, my guess is that you will have only 10 willing to buy without parking. I think the savings gained by the ten is vastly outweighed by the other 90 willing to pay for a have the paking space. I don’t disagree with you regarding the need and wisdom of a car, just the value upon resale — don’t shoot yourself in the foot.
Speaking of parking, why do people dislike places where you buy the condo, but rent the parking space? Seems like a win/win for people with and without cars, so what am I missing?
Well, desteve, to the extent that it is that much harder to sell a place without parking (meaning, it is that much less desirable), then you should be paying that much less for it in the first place. You’re only shooting yourself in the foot if you are overpaying. As anon(tfo) suggests, you should pay no more than Price of Unit – Cost of Parking Space – 20% of Cost of Parking Space.
Don’t forget, for every “resale” you had to have a “sale” in the first place. If you are disadvantaged at the resale stage, you should have been advantaged at the sale stage.
nd–your joke was too insider for me; I didn’t get it! But I imagine it has something to do with the stupid “dry” vote. As much as I do love my crazy neighbors, I *cannot* believe that thing passed, guaranteeing another decade of a dangerous, abandoned building as our neighbor…
Linda,
If you read some of the earlier posts there was a buyer who put in a contract at 1347 S. Michigan. She said they did not buy in 1235 S. Michigan because none of the 1 bedrooms available for sale had deeded parking. Most buyers (who need a parking space and plan on using the parking space) will not consider a place that does not have parking. They do not want to be subject to any uncertainty that may result from renting a parking space in the years to come.
No, but the most maligned resident in VH moved out because of worry over lost views. Everyone there is laughing at here jumping the gun. I think the hotel was a bad idea, as well as hideously badly designed – the University is going it alone on development these days with no local support and failing badly. As well as misusing the property as is – they could rent out the parking lot as is, but don’t. The best use for the site is housing – it’s really too far from any other commercial development to be truly successful, it could be redeveloped as lofts and build a smaller building where the newer additions are in back.
“In terms of resale, I think you would be making a big mistake. If there are, let’s say, 100 potentially interested buyers, my guess is that you will have only 10 willing to buy without parking. I think the savings gained by the ten is vastly outweighed by the other 90 willing to pay for a have the paking space. I don’t disagree with you regarding the need and wisdom of a car, just the value upon resale — don’t shoot yourself in the foot.”
Another thought is that if you are pricing your place (w/o parking) against similar places (w/Parking) the difference between the two would now be the estimated price of a parking space in the market. That added variable could make selling your place harder as you are now subject what other potential buyers’ value of parking is.
Plus if you don’t have a car you still have to foot some of the bill for the parking garage maintenance – as you would even if had deeded-owned parking in the building, but didn’t own a space. I suspect that those low costs are all subsidized by the entire building and the true costs would be closer to those mentioned by Kenworthey, since the garage she was talking about is a totally separate physical and corporate entity.
The reason many people own a car is not so much for use within Chicago, but to go places outside the city. It’s easy to take a bus or a train downtown, but not so easy if you want to go to the suburbs or a neighboring state. Public transportation works great in the city center, not so great everywhere else, and is non-existent in the suburbs.
I understand why people love having a parking space, but I’ve also seen places without parking that were way, WAY less than a comparable place with parking. And I’m not just talking 30K or 40K less or whatever the going price is for a parking spot in LP. I’m talking 80 or 90K less. (This is especially true if you look at single family homes that have no parking.) So it seems there are two values to consider: (1) The cost of a spot as indicated by recent comps and (2) The current spread in sales price between a place without parking and a comparable place with parking. But the second value is much more important because it represents the value of the parking space alone PLUS the “convenience of it being in my backyard and never going up in cost” value it gets when the space is sold with a unit. When you put those things together, some buyers are indicating they’re willing to spend 50, 75, or 100K for parking because they’re simply not willing to look at anything without parking.
At some point it absolutely makes sense to buy a place without parking. The problem is that you shouldn’t think you’re getting a deal just because you’re paying 40K or 50K less than someone else who has the exact same floorplan plus a parking spot that cost him/her 30K. The value of that space isn’t 30K any more unless there’s still an equally convenient spot for sale for 30K when your potential buyers come along.
“This is especially true if you look at single family homes that have no parking”
Are you talking about places w/o garages but still with alley access or are you talking about homes with short lots and nowhere to put a garage. Because if it’s the latter, then some of that difference is b/c there’s ~50% less land.
I-GO and ZipCar have me feeling green with envy over my friends that do not own a car. That brilliant business model has really overcome the need of owning a vehicle if one is not needed for your line of work.
Additionally, the ability to rent a car on the weekends from any of the majors at less than $20 a day is going to continue to put downward pressure on exorbitant parking spot prices. As things become more green, this is going to be major. Properties like Bucktown Station at Western & Winnebago already feature ZipCar ports for 2 cars and it’s across the street from a Blue Line Station (Western).
The really forward thinking developers are being proactive to this trend.
When I am done paying for the car I drive at the end of the year, I may not own another.
“Most buyers (who need a parking space and plan on using the parking space) will not consider a place that does not have parking. They do not want to be subject to any uncertainty that may result from renting a parking space in the years to come.”
I’m not talking about renting parking from another owner. There are buildings in which all of the parking spaces are rental, and not sold with the condos. What is bad about that?
And its not just the parking with this particular property, its a terribad duplex down, and the no parking on top of it is just icing on the crapcake.
If it was really nice somebody would fall in love with it no matter what, but I can’t see that happening here.
Danny said:
“The value of that space isn’t 30K any more unless there’s still an equally convenient spot for sale for 30K when your potential buyers come along.”
And that is what this is all about people.
Man you guys have been posting all of the homes I’m looking at. 🙂 This one is definitely not my first choice.
I’d like to see a property under $400k that all of you naysayers think is worth the money. It seems like no matter what, half of the commenters think that a misplaced door, proximity to a gas station, or other seemingly small detail is a dealbreaker.
Ooh, I just love being quoted. Thanks, kp. As for my comment about single family homes with no parking, I’m talking about landlocked homes with no garage and way to access that garage even if you built one. Yes, sometimes these places have shorter lots, but I’ve seen some that have decent sized yards but no alley access. When you look in nice northside ‘hoods, there are usually one or two single family homes that are way, way cheaper than the rest…or comparable in price to homes with some other huge deal breaker, like being right next to the train. So my point is the value of on-site parking is much more than just the going price of a spot at some new construction condo building in your ‘hood. And I think it would blow people’s minds if someone pointed out the real cost of owning a car in the city, because most people aren’t even aware of what other inventory is out there and how much they could save on purchase price if they’d just take parking off their must-have list.
Looks like you all already figured out through some nice detective work, but yeah the real flaw of this unit is the basement. I have been inside twice (don’t ask why), and the features are not nice, but the basement ceiling is absurdly low and keeps it from selling. Parking issues aside, the unit is horribly flawed. If I recall, one of the upstairs bedrooms has a door out to the alley which makes it into a bedroom/hallway, also not very desirable. Don’t bother.
elock: “It seems like no matter what, half of the commenters think that a misplaced door, proximity to a gas station, or other seemingly small detail is a dealbreaker.”
A low basement ceiling that was not living space wouldn’t be a problem (unless you are around 6’7″)–this place has basement life as part of its milieu; proximity to a gas station (long hours, horns, fumes, possible leeching or leaking of petroleum constituents) would be a big deal to me.
“A low basement ceiling that was not living space wouldn’t be a problem (unless you are around 6?7?)–this place has basement life as part of its milieu” — desteve
Yeah, we’re looking at duplexes in the hopes of getting something similar to this basement so that we can turn it into a swanky home theater… guess that counts as “basement life.” That’s why we’re going to look at this place this weekend.
hey elock, check out 2125 w. wellington, really sweet duplex (down 🙁 ) new build. The realtor let us into the model which was the duplex, when we wanted to check out a 2/2, but let me tell you that duplex was saweeeet. Brand new too.
I have a parking permit and also rent parking a block away. My guests will visit me even if they can’t park in my backyard. If needed, I can always let them use my spot or give them a guest permit. It’s nice to have parking but it’s not the end of the world if your condo/apartment doesn’t have it. Of course this is from someone who lives in Lakeview not LP.
Jason(TFO) – Not all parking spots that come with these units are safe and warm garages. I wouldn’t really be interested in paying an extra 30,000 for a parking spot in an open lot.
The people that have posted on here regarding the lack of a parking spot have obviously never lived in this area of Lincoln Park. I lived on Bissell for the past 8 years without parking, commuted to the suburbs every weekday for work, and parked 95% of the time right in front of my unit. I think you are forgetting that this area has zoned parking, and that most of the units have garages making street parking more than plentiful. As you get close to the lake, where there is an abundance of mid and high rises, a parking spot is a must, but definitely not in the Sheffield/Armitage/Halsted area.
I went to see this place this weekend and I can tell you that this place is NOT a victim of the bad market. It’s a victim of a HORRIFIC smell. Seriously, this place has the inviting aroma of an old musty, mold-infested basement mixed with carpet that a dog has been using as a toilet for years. Ew.
Even if this place came with 4 heated, garaged parking spots, and 12″ ceilings in the basement, it still wouldn’t sell because of the smell. They’re going to have to drop the price on this by 50k and it’ll still be on the market for awhile. Plus the floor in the basement is slanted, and the ceiling is cracking in the back — this one is definitely a falling knife.