Selling for the 2004 Price in Old Town: 230 W. Division
The Venetian, at 230 W. Division, is an 88-unit highrise constructed in 2004 on the Old Town border.
This 1-bedroom with den is priced at just about the 2004 purchase price.
Is this a deal for the neighborhood?
John Vossoughi at @Properties has the listing. See more pictures here.
Unit #1208: 1 bedroom plus den, 1.5 baths, 1030 square feet
- Sold in September 2004 for $364,000 (included the parking)
- Currently listed for $339,900 (plus $35,000 for parking) = $374,900
- Assessments are $427 a month
- Taxes are $3900
- Brazilian cherry hardwood floors throughout
- Den: 9×9
- Open House: Sunday, March 15, 2-4 PM
Is it me or why do so many chicago condos, especially the newer ones, have the kitchen embedded with the living room with no partition whatsoever? Is it to save room? Or do people really enjoy smelling what was cooked for the whole day?
yawn. next.
some people paid bubble prices 2 years too early…
250 and we’ll start talking.
Nice unit, bad price. I have been coming across some great deals that I would like to hear some discussions on. Lately on here, all I have been seeing is over priced places that arent anything great. Who runs this thing so I can email them good properties that are worth talking about?
This is a nice condo, and might even sell for over $300,000 as it is a lot bigger than a typical one bedroom. But it is in fact listed for more than the 2004 price, which is too high.
Also, judging by the forced air gas heating system, I’d be willing to bet that heat is not included in the assessments. These assessments would then be quite high if that is the case.
Look at the comparables on the market in old town. its a good price.
Dayum that is overpriced. You can buy new construction in RN, OT, LP or pretty much anywhere for that kind of money. MAYBE justifiable if it was a true 2/2 and maybe if it was 1300 sqft.
2004 price was out of line imho. I think it will sell for less than the ’04 price.
Steele,
You can email Sabrina at
cribchatter@yahoo.com
Similar units in Vetro just sold for ~275k at auction. The question is the location and building differences worth a 100k premium? In my opinion no.
It might be a nice condo, but it is not a nice block.
It is a lot nicer than a number of comps I’ve seen in the area…and new const to the west will be driving up the value in the next couple yrs
That’s not really prime “Old Town”. That’s kind of the shitty part of Old Town actually. If it were on the same block, but on North Ave., we’d be in business.
Bad block, ugly exterior, kitchen looks average at best. I do like the french doors and balcony. The bathroom looks great. It does have nice sq footage, but definitely not worth that price without parking. The assessments are high, too.
I have been in a unit in the building this exact same size (same floor too I think).
Given that similar units in the Vetro auction sold @ ~ 265k this size, and I would think this area is slightly more desirable, I’m thinking 300k max, including the parking.
I think this is an awful location, due to traffic, el noise and total lack of neighborhood charm. Wouldn’t touch it, personally.
But i also think it’s inappropriate to extrapolate all condo values based on the Vetro auction results. Don’t you think that many Vetro auction buyers discounted the prices they would pay because they expect that there will be some difficulties with the condo association due to unpaid assessments, etc.?
Just because Vetro reduced prices by 25% (or whatever it was) doesn’t mean all prices should be reduced 25%. We’ve had distressed sales in the Sterling for a couple years now, and not all condo prices declined to the same extent that the Sterling prices did.
Some buildings and neighborhoods will fare far better than others. While the Vetro may indicate generally distressed market conditions, it’s not a comp for this unit.
In a normal market, the Vetro would not be considered a comp, but, an appraiser may not have a choice but to use them in his analysis, because, sales at the Verto comprise a majority of high rise units sold in the last few months.
An appraiser is not going to use sold units from 611 S. Wells as comps for 230 W. Division. They are nowhere near each other (2+ miles apart). Also it wouldn’t fly with the underwriter reviewing the appraisal. Using a comp from 2 miles away in an urban market is a big no-no, especially when there are actual comps nearby in the past 3 months.
That being said though, I think this unit is on the high side, price wise. Not a single 1 bedroom (or 2 bed/1 bath) has closed in that area for over 300k in the past 3 months. Unit 1203 in the building, which was a short sale 2 bed/2 bath, closed for $354,000 in October.
Of course it’s a no-no but given the state of the market, and the sheer number of Vetro units sold, they might have more of an impact than we might think. I’ve seen hundreds of appraisals and I’ve seen some pretty bad comps, especially when the market is incredibly slow like it is now. It’s just a thought I’m putting out there; I’m not saying it’s a sure thing.
I agree with bubbleboi – the Vetro is a distressed building… those auction prices represent the fear that remaining units will sell for less and there will be issues with association fees. If those were the last 40+ units and there weren’t any major potential issues, they would have sold for way more even in this market.
People on this site need to realize what the current market actually is and be realistic with the prices the expect. To say this unit was worth in the 200’s is an uneducated guess. And this point is proven by us gettin a contract very close to the asking price for this very unit.
Do your research before you make posts. Almost every posting on this site gets torn apart for being overpriced. It simply is not possible that every single posting is overpriced. Sorry.
fyi to jc….there are several one bedrooms in the area that have closed above 300,000K…in fact, just check down the street at 511 W. Division where a unit that is 850 square feet closed in December (3 months from when you posted) for 346K.
“proven by us gettin a contract very close to the asking price for this very unit”
1. What qualifies as “very close” right now? Serious question.
2. It will be “proven” only when you actually close. Not that I doubt you will, but the contract is worth the earnest money and not a penny more.
Too bad selling in this market is more akin to winning the lottery. Price your one bed at 300k cross ur fingers and hope for the best! But don’t worry the market will come roaring back, eventually. We r at or nesr the bottom so once again prosperity is right around the corner! Shame on us for ever doubting the 300k+ condo market wasn’t as strong as ever!
John:
Congratulations for securing an acceptable offer in this market. So there is at least one person who disagrees with our posters & hopefully their lender will agree and provide sufficient funding to validate their opinion of value. I am preparing to list my home which I’ve owned for 10+ years and I understand how difficult it is determine an appropriate ask. No amount of research will enable me to divine how much one of todays very few ready & able prospects will be willing to pay as activity in our submarket stalls.
“in fact, just check down the street at 511 W. Division where a unit that is 850 square feet closed in December (3 months from when you posted) for 346K.”
I would have excluded it, too, seeing that the contract for that new construction unit (808) was signed on 2/2/07.
“Too bad selling in this market is more akin to winning the lottery.”
What do you say, John, are you making a lot of sales?
G,
I am doing well, yes. Market activity has picked up a ton. My main point is that it is arrogant to claim to know the market better than people that DO THIS ON A DAILY BASIS. It is not a hobby for me, this is my job. I don’t “play Realtor.” Did I used to “play Realtor?” Yes, when I was younger, and I can say that I had no idea what I was getting into when I made this my profession. You simply cannot grasp the market like someone that is doing this FOR LIFE and fully devotes themselves to it. Like you all, I do have hobbies. However, I don’t make claims that are not supported by statistical data. Just because I have an interest in sports, does not make me qualified to be an ESPN analyst. Just because I know about the economy, does not mean I should be having discussions with Ben Bernanke. Im not suggesting this is what you guys are doing, you are simply expressing opinions on a blog….BUT, you all act like you do not need or even want to hear the advice of people that do this everyday. That just seems ignorant and egotistical.
As for people “crossing their fingers for 300K…” If you pull the first quarter stats for Old Town, you will see that 87 units closed. Average price was $310K. So, homedelete, I really do not see your point. People don’t have to cross their fingers to get $300K when the average just last quarter was $310K. I cant say what my unit is going to close at, but I will say that it was above $350,000.
Thanks
john,
I for one like to hear everybody’s opinion on this blog. I think the majority of readers and commentators do, actually.
I’m just a keyboard jockey and don’t do this on a daily basis. I can pull data off the internet but its often overly generalized and not specific to the Chicago market. So I think you guys are a value add in providing a “boots on the ground” perspective.
But as many have a vested interest in seeing the market stabilize and volume pick up, I find the fact & stat checking and verification from some other commentators equally value added.
Bob,
I love the comments, which is why I always view this site. That said, I get somewhat annoyed when every property I see on here gets torn to shreds for being over priced. I just know for a fact that not every single one of the properties Sabrina has posted has been overpriced.
Homedelete no doubt has some valid opinions. I am just saying that sometimes buyers are a bit unrealistic with what is actually going on with the market.
“A” said, “250 and we will be talking.” Pete said that we’d be lucky to crack 300K. Bob compared us to the Vetro and said this unit should sell for $275,000. The Vetro was never, and will never be a comp for this area.
I am just asking for people to think before they post, because some people read sites like this, and the comments (often inaccurate) can affect their opinions.
Fair enough. I guess we differ in what a valid comp is. From my perspective both the South Loop and Old Town are nice enough neighborhoods where I can have a simliar enough urban lifestyle. So I used the Vetro auction prices as a comp from my perspective.
Because to me if the differential is large enough I would be willing to trade neighborhoods. Two miles down the street and 115k difference. I don’t know Old Town that well and it could very well be the neighborhood alone justifies a 44% increase in the cost of housing vs the South Loop. But from _my perspective_ I don’t place nearly that much premium on the location differential. Someone else might.
Bob,
To your point about the change in price 2 miles apart….Check Hudson street from the 600 to 900 block. Thats 3 blocks difference. Prices change quite a bit, and its only three blocks!!
Thats just a quick example, but there are TONS more, like if you are 1 block away from the highway or 4 blocks away from the highway. You even see huge price differentials on different sides of the same street, when one side of the street has the “L” on it. An obvious point, but one that is a huge factor in pricing. The point is, Chicago is strange because it doesn’t take a great distance for prices to flucuate significantly.
Now, for people like you, the 2 mile difference is not much of a factor. That is totally understandable. There are some people that feel these two areas are interchangeable. However, at least from the people in my age demographic (25-35), Old Town provides a little bit more of a vibrant feel, because of the overall sense of community (not being surrounded by the corporate world, heavy traffic, etc..). Just my opinion of course. I do not believe that the overall quality of life in the Loop is as good as in Old Town…..Again, my opinion, but I do believe that the pricing difference between the two areas reflects that this opinion is the majority.
Not trying to sound like a know it all, I am not, but I do believe there is a large difference between the areas.
Thanks
John,
I’m even more confused now why someone with your claims of professionalism would try to pass that 511 W Division sale off as a comp when the contract was signed in 2/07?
It is also interesting that you failed to address this point while claiming your superior market knowledge.
What gives?
John,
Redfin shows the median listing price for 1 bedrooms with 1+ bathrooms in ‘Old Town’ is $238,000. 1 bedrooms with more than 750 sq ft the median is $250,000. I can’t go any deeper for units with dens or 1.5 baths.
However, your claim that of the “87 units” closed last quarter “the average … was $310k”.
Maybe I’m comparing apples to oranges but the two don’t seem to jive. Have prices dropped precipitously in the last month for 1 beds in old town?
G,
Appraisers look at CLOSED properties, not when properties had contracts signed. The fact is that it appraised at, and closed at 346,000 just a few months back. That is a comp that is can be used.
Also, I dont know where redfin is getting their stats, but mine come straight from the MLS. Dont really know who else to put it!
Thanks
One last thing….if you do not believe me, just keep your eye on this unit, and see what it closes at.
G, Im not trying to come off as superior at all. Just saying that perhaps people that deal with this on a day to day basis probably know a little (or a lot :)) more than people that just observe the Real Estate market as a hobby.
John,
I completely agree with you that everyone on this website definitely exaggerates. I am not in the real estate industry so it isn’t a big deal to me, but I do come to these sites a lot, and the commentary is annoying, especially when you are trying to see other peoples opinions. No matter what the property is, people on this site immediately just say it should sell for 100k-500k less, depending on the size of the unit. I do not own, so it doesn’t really affect me, but I have looked at pretty much every post on this website for quite some time, and I rarely see a property that people say is a nice unit. It is sad, becuase to all you bloggers out there, there are some nice buildings in Chicago. I know this, I have been in them.
As for this unit though, it isn’t in the most desirable location. I have rented for years at the corner of state/division so I know the area well, and once you go west past clark street, it just isn’t the same. Now, I don’t know much about this building, and I don’t want to sound like everyone else here, but based on what some of the new construction is selling for in the area, it does seem a bit over priced. I know saying that kind of contradicts everything I said above, but it is true in both cases. It was probably over priced in 2004, that is why. I think @properties has the job of selling the units at SoNo, and those units are priced better than this one at similar square footage. I know they don’t have the den or the extra bathroom, but it is pretty much the same square footage and new construction. Just something to think about, and my two cents.
Bobbo,
valid points. Ill just reiterate…… the point is this unit will close at a price that no one on this site will agree with. This is because everyone on this site thinks everthing should sell, like you said, at around 100K less than it actually should and does sell for. Is this unit the best bargain in town? No. Short Sales and Foreclosures are obviously going to get you a better deal if that is what you are looking for. As for ready to go functionality though, this is a good buy. With distressed properties you also have to wait out on a long bank approval process, and often when buyers are waiting for a bank response they find a place that is move in ready (not sold “as is”) and retract their offers on distressed properties.
As for that specific location, I know exactly what you mean. I’d much prefer that State and Wells location, but the point is that there still is value in this Old Town location too. I love seeing people’s feedback on properties, which is why I had Sabrina post this listing of mine. This is a solid site, I just wish there was more diversity in the comments made on all the properties listed.
SoNo is an entirely different discussion, that I could go on for days about, but I won’t bore everyone here about that project. If anyone has questions about those or any units email me at johnvoss@atproperties.com.
Thanks guys and good luck with everything.
John Vossoughi
“Appraisers look at CLOSED properties, not when properties had contracts signed. The fact is that it appraised at, and closed at 346,000 just a few months back. That is a comp that is can be used. ”
Not always, john. You imply that an appraiser should not consider the long contract time and any change in market conditions over that span. Did you see the appraisal? A contract from 2/07 (when ‘meeting of the minds’ occurred) might not be indicative of the current market, no? We have seen plenty of examples of those who made bad decisions closing new construction units when they would have been better off walking from their earnest money. They might close, but they aren’t indicative of current value.
“If you pull the first quarter stats for Old Town, you will see that 87 units closed. Average price was $310K.”
I have no idea what mls data you are refering to here. Care to enlighten us?
Property closed at $351,500. Original contract was higher, but then a special assessment was levied. Thx
Thanks for the update John. I appreciate you posting the closing price.
No problem, thanks for posting the property Sabrina 🙂