No Appreciation in 600 N. Fairbanks in Streeterville?
We’ve chattered about 600 N. Fairbanks, the Helmut Jahn-designed highrise in Streeterville, numerous times in the past.
We finally have some closings in 2009 that provide a better idea of what is going on in the building.
Has one of the hottest buildings in Chicago fallen back to earth?
We chattered about Unit #1505, a 2-bedroom north facing unit, several times in 2009.
See our prior chatter and pictures here.
It recently closed after 7 months on the market for what the seller paid in 2007. The seller purchased at pre-construction pricing in 2005.
Unit #1505: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1253 square feet, (NW view)
- Sold in November 2007 for $584,000 (included the parking)
- Listed in January 2009 for $629,900 (plus $55,000 for parking)
- Reduced
- Listed in April 2009 for $599,000 (plus $55,000 for parking)
- Reduced
- Sold in July 2009 for $585,000 (included the parking)
- Assessments of $482 a month
- Taxes are “new”
- David Isquith at Keller Williams Gold Coast had the listing.
Reductions continue in the building.
That building is hideous looking. Every other new construction building in Streeterville has better looking elevations.
I disagree with Dan, this building looks awesome (that is a bad pciture and angle). I do think it is f-ing crazy to pay 950K for 1750sqft at this location.
There’s plenty of morons out there that will pay for steel & glass I guess… have you seen some of Helmut’s coffee tables and furniture? You could build the crap yourself for like 1/1000th the price
All of the units in this building look cold and uncomfortable. Its like Cameron’s house from Ferris Buellers Day Off. Very beautiful and very cold.
Why is Jahn allowed to tough a T-square?
Seems like people love or hate this building.
I always thought Helmut did the Hancock, which I like. He didnt, but he did do the Thompson Center, which I dont like as much (though it did play a big part in the hit movie Running Scared starring Billy Crystal and Gregory Hines).
3302, 1707, 2105, 1603, 2306, 2703, and 2107 all closed in 2009…resales.
Capitulation has begun. Every seller in 2009 has lost money on their “investment.” This conclusion does not take into account any vacancies or loss to equivalent rent (in the same bldg.) I believe these buyers are classic knifecatchers, due to the fact that there has been approx 40% of total units which have been offered for rent or resale already, which indicates many flippers yet to find the exit. Prices are also heading below pre-con levels.
However, there is still time to overpay for a condo here in order to prove your pride of ownership. I know many readers on CC value that “opportunity.” But you will likely have to act quickly before that “opportunity” vanishes.
Here are the nine resales in 2009 to date that I posted the other day on the prior 600 NF thread. The CAGR (or IRR assuming a steady trendline) was computed between sale dates after a 6% deduction from recent sale for transaction costs. Yes, I know the shills will argue “everyone doesn’t pay a commission” but the reality is that wonderful day is really not here yet. Don’t forget that transfer taxes alone will set the seller back 1.2% between their buy/sell transactions.
1503 CLSD 11/20/2007 $422,913 p812
1503 CLSD 2/17/2009 $390,000 no pkg
p812 CLSD 6/9/2009 $52,000 p812
1503 Total $442,000 p812 -1.41%
1505 Dev Pre-con $498,694 no pkg
1505 CLSD 11/6/2007 $584,000 p613
1505 CLSD 7/10/2009 $585,000 p613 -3.53%
1603 CLSD 12/4/2007 $403,751 p615
1603 CLSD 6/4/2009 $375,000 no pkg
p615 est MV $54,000 p615
1603 est Total $429,000 p615 -0.08%
1707 Dev Pre-con $476,370 no pkg
1707 CLSD 11/27/2007 $528,135 p113
1707 CLSD 7/14/2009 $530,000 p113 -3.52%
2105 CLSD 12/4/2007 $652,275 p817
2105 CLSD 6/5/2009 $612,500 p817 -7.97%
2107 CLSD 12/10/2007 $533,000 p105
2107 CLSD 2/5/2009 $500,000 no pkg
p105 CLSD 4/2/2009 $47,000 p105
2107 Total $547,000 p105 -3.06%
2306 CLSD 4/1/2008 $404,982 p48
2306 CLSD 4/22/2009 $425,000 p48 -1.28%
2703 CLSD 1/22/2008 $466,500 p621
2703 CLSD 4/15/2009 $427,500 p621 -11.43%
3302 Dev Pre-con $630,256 no pkg
3302 CLSD 3/24/2008 $718,280 p76
3302 CLSD 7/14/2009 $650,000 p76? -11.65%
p76 est MV $53,000 p76
3302 est Total $703,000 p76 -6.18%
Notes:
(1) “Dev Pre-con” is the developer’s original pre-construction (lowest) pricing, where available (thanks to mr pid.)
(2) Parking which did not sell with the unit and has not been sold seperately to date has an estimated value entered to estimate the return.
(3) Unit 3302 was too recent to verify if pkg was included. It sold for slightly over the last list price which is typically indicative of pkg included. However, return calculated both with and without pkg until it is fact.
(4) Unit 1505 has a $0 original sale price in public records. The price entered is from Sabrina’s current post.
love the building but I’m going to agree with Sonies on this one. I can go to 400 E OH for example, purchase the 1650 sq ft short sale, give it the same Helmut Jahn contemporary look and not be completely upside down on my unit.
I hope that unfinished concrete fad fades soon.
G, say you buy now, and plan to sell in 5+ years… do you think people buying today will be as bad off as those that bought in 2006, 2007, and 2008?
“5+ years” is kind of vague, Sonies.
It’s bldg by bldg with downtown area condos. Depends on when capitulation occurs. If it is just now starting or coming (600 NF, 340 OTP) and we are talking 5-7 years, my answer is yes.
If the bldg has already been vetroed, my answer is no. No as in not as bad off, but not good, either.
Wondering how they determined price per sq. ft. here. Unit 1505 apparently sold for its 2007 price at $466 per sq/ft. Even with the 50k reduction (which is tantamount to giving the parking space away for free) on 3301, you’re still paying $514 per sq/ft. Is view on the 33rd floor really worth that much?
“Even with the 50k reduction (which is tantamount to giving the parking space away for free) on 3301, you’re still paying $514 per sq/ft. Is view on the 33rd floor really worth that much?”
Apparently not, as it hasn’t sold.
Thanks for the research G! i would’ve expected larger price cuts in a new building like this. I would have to guess more to come, as owners get increasingly desperate and then a few foreclosures hit.
“Apparently not, as it hasn’t sold.”
Yes, apparently. Is that really the mentality though? Is there any other appreciable reason why they’ve priced this at $900k rather than sub $800k where it probably should be?
“Is there any other appreciable reason why they’ve priced this at $900k rather than sub $800k where it probably should be?”
If it were the same $$/SF as 1505, it would be a right around $800k with the parking. However, (1) there should be *some* view/floor premium and (2) if $599 + pkg was the last list for 1505, it sold for a little more than 10% off. Using that as a guide, a list of $900 + pkg is only a little bit high, closing somewhere aroung $815-840k.
btw, where is T2/Turd/DeaconBlue? I’m sure he’ll point to 1505 (among the others) to note that he’s still has paper gains on his unit.
Horrible location unless you want/like ambulance and Navy Pier noise. Not a friendly neighborhood. I am not a fan of high priced concrete and finishes that look like last years fad all too soon but to me the building, which many like, should be in a better location for that price point.
G: If you invested in the market in Nov 2007 and sold today you would be down almost 40%. These investors, who for whatever reason needed to cash out now, beat the market by about 30-35% on average, according to your calculations. Not so bad.
I’m glad you’ve all missed me. Once you get above floor 28, you get a lake view with the north facing units. I’m not sure about the 3 bd SE one, but it probably has a bit of a water view. The views are exponentially better on 28+ once you can see the lake. So a larger premium is likely going from, say, 27th to 32nd floor than you would going from 15th to 20th.
As for the look of the building and the location, they both tend to elicit strong responses from people. I happen to think it’s the most convinient location in the city. Ohio, Ontario and St. Clair have every type of amenity that I could possibly want nearby. It’s not a building for everyone, but there is a subset of the market that loves it and that’s why 9 units have sold YTD.
I agree with Turd. It is the best “modern” building in the city and will always appeal to a specific subset of buyers.
Developer still can’t sell out St. Clair and that is right around the corner.
9 resales is great in this market.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
There is currently a 2/2 listed in this building for rent (includes all utilities & internet) for $3,250 per month. To an investor (which to me includes anyone who buys real estate, whether owner-occupied or not) that leaves NOI of $2,768/mo. This of course is without RE taxes, which are “new” (but I assume won’t be forever). So the annual NOI is $33,216. Put a 8% cap rate to that and the indicated fair value of a 2/2 in this building is $415,000.
And I think I am being generous here with the no RE tax assumption and an 8-cap.
Back of the napkin valuation I suppose. Does this make sense? Am I missing something? I would love input from pros around here as I am trying to make a housing decision and trying to rationalize the rent/buy decision. Do you agree that the economic decision process should be the same whether you are an investor looking to rent or someone looking for a home?
Ed – Kind of funny you would call this a “horrible” location just because of the hospital / Navy Pier nearby.
Sirens won’t be heard in a high rise with good windows and the Navy Pier fireworks are seasonal and usually cannot be heard unless you have your windows open.
Plus.. well – I mean it’s the highest $ / sf real estate in Chicago, so that must make it a terrible place to live – right?
(for full disclosure I live in the area and looked at 600 NF – but it’s one bedrooms have the smallest closet space I have ever seen and couldn’t come close to fitting my wardrobe – and I’m a dude)
This building is one people either love or hate, but I personally love it. I always believed the original pre-construction pricing was too high, but the fact that there hasn’t been significant price deflation is (in my opinion) a good sign in the current market. The lobby is spectacular, the location is walkable to everything, and is is unique to find “loft style” units with such incredible views. Finally, the roof deck is one of the nicest I’ve ever seen which will be a draw to buyers long-term.
“Plus.. well – I mean it’s the highest $ / sf real estate in Chicago, so that must make it a terrible place to live – right? ”
Maybe at the time it was constructed, but these days I think other high-rises like Trump and Legacy take the cake for that.
Remember in Trump studios are listed in the 500s. Here a 1br looks like a steal in comparison for under 400k with parking.
But then again compared to Trump everything looks like a steal.
““Plus.. well – I mean it’s the highest $ / sf real estate in Chicago, so that must make it a terrible place to live – right? ”
Maybe at the time it was constructed, but ”
I took it to be a reference to the PSF for the dirt, rather than what’s on it.
Ed, if you’re concerned about sirens and noise from Navy Pier, then you probably shouldn’t live downtown. But as another poster mentioned, with decent windows that noise should be adequately subdued.
Horrible location? Not a friendly neighborhood? Huh? Thousands of others would debate you on that. I live about a mile away, but like the area just fine. I like the building too. The concrete obviously appealed to enough people. For those that didn’t care for it, skim coating the ceiling resolved that issue. I know someone that lives in the building and that’s exactly what she did.
The finishes look like yesterday’s fad? Really? What design style do you deem acceptable for a contemporary glass building?
You crack me up. I suspect you’d have a cow if you visited new construction in NYC. I’m guessing contemporary buildings aren’t for you, or perhaps you have an ulterior motive for your statements.
“I’m guessing contemporary buildings aren’t for you, or perhaps you have an ulterior motive for your statements.”
And you’re just talking your book, right? Accusations of “ulterior motives” are sort of conspiracy-theory-lite.
Why do people clinch onto the concrete ceilings. If you really hate it spend a couple thousand get it painted and move on.
“Why do people clinch onto the concrete ceilings. ”
Because you’re presumably buying a completed product from the developer. Concrete ceilings do not give the feeling that it is a completed product.
Lots of people in the building have done work to the ceilings and exposed walls. The concrete walls looked really crappy IMHO, and some people did some really cool stuff to them. There was an artisan sculpture who was selling his services to owners and came up with lots of unique veneers. If these prices are any indication, this building has help up remarkably when relative to most new construction buildings.
“If the bldg has already been vetroed, my answer is no. No as in not as bad off, but not good, either.”
Only a G-tard would think that someone who bought a 1br for $180k with parking at Vetro will be in bad shape in 5-7 years.
There are thousands of units still coming on the market in the South Loop this year and next. Foreclosures are prevalent all over the neighborhood.
When prices finally hit a bottom (we don’t know how many years that will take)- it’s unlikely you will see any appreciation for years (if it follows the cycle of other real estate busts.)
So, it is quite conceivable that someone who bought this year in the Vetro could easily be underwater in 5 or 7 years.
Underwater- meaning that prices will fall by 20% to erode the standard down payment- equates to a decline of more than $36K. So a Vetro 1BR with parking, in 5 to 7 years, would be less than $144K.
This is what you think is ‘quite conceivable?’
“Underwater- meaning that prices will fall by 20% to erode the standard down payment”
No, Vetro had FHA financing as of recently. Even before that I’m pretty sure you could get financing for 10% down or less. I bet the majority of condos in Chicago have been and are still being underwritten with less than 20% down.
That being said, I generally agree with you in that auction buyers aren’t going to lose much a ways out. But also I don’t know of too many 180k 1BRs in Vetro. Sounds a little light on the pricepoint 1BRs actually sold for.
Lets separate facts from fiction: how many 1BRs in Vetro actually sold for 180k?
“Lets separate facts from fiction: how many 1BRs in Vetro actually sold for 180k?”
Doing v. little investigation, I found at least 4 that sold for UNDER $180k *with* parking. Mostly hi-170s. And that’s excluding the “jr-1BRs”.
Four units out of all of the 1BRs at Vetro is definitely the minority. I think there are close to fifty legitimate 1BRs total.
“Four units out of all of the 1BRs at Vetro is definitely the minority. I think there are close to fifty legitimate 1BRs total.”
Like I said, 30 seconds of “research”. G could give us a definitive list–what I pulled was from the first closing list of G’s I could find cross-ref’d with the Vetro website to separate the real 1BRs from the juniors. And that was from right after the auction, so some more may have sold in that price range since.
Plus, the parking will probably remain “worth” at least $20-25k, so the real price of the unit itself (for comparison purposes) is in the $150s.
I am generally bearish on the RE market as well (obviously) but I doubt those auction buyers are going to lose much when it comes time to sell. They got new construction at a steep discount on PPSF basis to what other units were previously selling for.
“And you’re just talking your book, right? Accusations of “ulterior motives” are sort of conspiracy-theory-lite.”
Pass the crack pipe please.
“Pass the crack pipe please.”
You left out “back”–“Pass the crack pipe *back* please”.
It’s highly doubtful Ed is using CC as a negotiation point in trying to buy a condo. But if the seller falls for it, I hope he lets us all know.
I really like this building and the way it looks. I agree with some on here, its either a love/hate building. However, I still cant see myself paying $400,000 for an 871sq/ft condo AND dropping another 50k on a parking spot.
“I am generally bearish on the RE market as well (obviously) but I doubt those auction buyers are going to lose much when it comes time to sell. They got new construction at a steep discount on PPSF basis to what other units were previously selling for.”
Exactly, Bob- they won’t lose, and they won’t be ‘underwater’. But Sabrina believes it is ‘quite conceivable’.
What if other buildings in the area also ‘go vetro”? What will that do to resale values at the Vetro?
Let’s wait 5-7 years and revisit.
5 to 7 years is nothing. Plenty of people buying now will be underwater then. Heck- it’s taking a year to two years just for the foreclosures coming down the pike to actually come on the market for re-sale at much lower prices.
I’m mindful of those who bought condos in the 1970s in Chicago who told Crain’s that it was nearly 15 to 20 years before they saw any appreciation.
I love how Sabrina can predict the future based on one cherry-picked data point that took place in ancient economic history…
That’s not really what she did.
Every real estate bust in history has taken years to recover from. Never has there been a V-shaped recovery in real estate after a crash this deep.
There has never been a V-shape recovery for ANY asset class after a bubble has burst. Real estate will be no different.
I didn’t say there would be a V-shaped recovery.
I said prices at the Vetro will NOT be 20% lower in 5-7 years than it is today. That’s the discussion – pay attention.
Actually, MF, you said “they won’t lose, and they won’t be ‘underwater’.”
Try to pay attention.
Since it was my comment that started this, a little refresher:
“No as in not as bad off (as those that bought in 2006, 2007, and 2008), but not good, either.”
Don’t forget about transaction costs and that only ‘real’ (inflation-adjusted) dollars are comparable.
Who said anything about a V-shaped recovery in real estate? Being “not-underwater in 5-7 years” sounds more like an L than a V to me…
3001 just reduced to 880K
3607 closed yesterday for 640K, not sure if parking was included.
The building is definitely selling. Sizzle on 600
Someone should tell the agent for 3001 to get some professional photos taken. The ones she has up are terrible.
“3001 just reduced to 880K”
But Parking was increased from $50k to $60k.
“3607 closed yesterday for 640K, not sure if parking was included”
MLS shows closed 7/21/09 for $640,000. The last list price was $645,000 plus $55,000 for parking. Don’t know if pkg included, but who would pay 99% of list? It was agent owned. The seller closed on it 3/28/08 for $646,500 with p61, which appears to be the pre-construction price.
Sales typically pick-up when the onset of capitulation triggers knife-catching.
3606 was just posted as closed for $440,000 including parking.
MLS shows that this unit closed 11/03/2005 for $435,960 and then again on 3/02/2009 for $440,000.
Not sure what is going on here.
G, please investigate
Better buy now before they’re all flipped away!
I don’t think $646,500 was the original pre-construction price for 3606, that’s a bit too high. That looks like the pricing they used after the initial 40% was sold and they raised the prices on all the remaining units about 8%.
David, this building started pre-construction sales in Q4 2005, so they must have mistakenly listed the contract date as the closing date. 3606 would have been delivered in roughly April 2008, so I’m not sure why it’s listing a prior sale in 2009, I wonder if it was supposed to say 2008?
Sorry I meant $646,500 for 3607, not 3606.
mr pid had the pre-con price for #3607 at $596,055. Add in the cost of the 6th fl pkg and the $646,500 makes sense.
mr pid’s other pre-con prices appear correct.
David – I’ll see what’s up with 3606.
who is this mister pid?
So even if we assume the recent contract on 3607 included parking, then the price has only dropped $6,500 in the past year. How is that capitulation?
The building has held up the best out of the new construction buildings. It is the best modern building in the city and attracts a steady stream of buyers interested in the design.
1502 (resale) is under contract
Not gonna answer me G?
3001 under contract.
The building is sizzling
#3001 was originally listed for $1.29 million in February 2008.
They lowered the price numerous times to $880,000 and it finally went under contract after 17 months and a 30%+ price reduction.
What’s the “sizzle” about that?
We’ve seen it all over the city. If you lower the price enough- you’ll find a buyer.
The sale of this unit WILL, however, set a much lower comp for all the other 01 tier units (many of which are priced higher than this one and are on lower flooors.)
Hi,
I meant sizzle for the building. What other new buildings downtown have seen about a dozen resales in 09?
“The building is sizzling”
Yeah and thats some nice negative equity its got cooking up, David.
Are all properties here also being “snapped up”? Is that the phrase?
HAHA, yup!
Sabrina,
What was the last sale price for the unit? The fact that the offering price dropped isn’t meaningful, they may have listed it way too high.
T2: It sold in March 2008 for $950,500 (which I’m assuming included the parking.)
It’s currently listed for $880,000 (parking extra) and under contract.
Hey Sabrina – Soon you will need to lower your comps! LOL 😉
That makes more sense. I’m not surprised that a unit that’s been on the market that long (in that difficult price range) has dropped a bit. However, that’s about a 7.4% drop, not 30%.
From what I can gather on the units that have sold recently, it looks like most of them are going for roughly the original pre-construction pricing. This unit further confirms that, as most units were jacked up about 7-8% once 40% of the building was under contract. It appears that the initial 7% discount was captured in units that sold about a year ago, but since then the prices have softened back to the original pre-con pricing. The good news is they are selling at those levels, I can’t think of any other building with so many transactions this year.
MANY units in the building have gone under contract in recent weeks, in excess of five. Since there are no new building reallys going up if someone wants “new” this is the place.
1502, 3001, and 3805 are under contract.
3406, 3301, and 4003 are pending.
Wow!
“Since there are no new building reallys going up if someone wants “new” this is the place.”
They just broke ground on Ritz-Carlton Residences. Although thats a different price level. I was surprised to read about it too.
No new buildings going up in this price range and neighborhood would be a more accurate statement.
Yes, there are a lot of sales in the building. That’s what happens in every building once you get back to 2004-2005 pricing (or lower.) Buyers are rarely paying more than what properties were selling for in 2004-2005.
I’ve seen some- but it’s not the norm anymore.
This building has a lot of rentals (more than 20% of the building) and no “limit” enacted by the condo board to stop the number from increasing.
Sabrina,
Your insistence on being negative is humorous (bordering on annoying).
“Buyers are rarely paying more than what properties were selling for in 2004-2005.”
Well, this building didn’t go on the market until Q4 2005, so what is your point exactly? Is anyone arguing that condos are up since 2005?
As I mentioned it looks like these units are going for about what they went for in 2005/6 or so. It’s hard to tell because of differences in upgrades and parking spots.
As for your comment on rentals, again, what is your point? Are you simply grasping at something that may be negative even though it has nothing to do with our discussion? For the record, the building is 23% rentals currently and the condo board is in the process of placing a cap.
T2, the point is no appreciation in this building, as clearly stated in the title of this discussion.
Now, what is your point?
“My point” is that Sabrina likes to be negative. She tried to spin a 7.5% price decline into a 30% decline. My other point is that she was mentioning things that had nothing to do with the topic at hand, like rental caps. Anyone who read the thread could understand my “point”, so what is your “point”?
First, what’s w/the quotation marks? Those aren’t necessary.
Second, I was merely answering your question and trying to understand your point of annoyance. So that was my point — with or without quotation marks.
As for what you mentioned, and it’s difficult to judge someone’s intent, I don’t think she was trying to spin it one way or the other. She said it was a 30% decline from the original asking price. And then it was quickly established that it was 7% less than the previous sale price. Those two facts are easily reconcilable and not mutually exclusive, and most people would agree.
Regarding the rental figure, it is pertinent in that the level of demand to buy in the building has some bearing on this figure. Nonetheless, I’ll give you that it’s not the most relevant info, but info that many on this forum will find interesting.
I vote with Rosin.
1805 went under contract today. People are buying in the building. That is a good thing.
Rosin, if you read Sabrina’s comments over time, they are decidedly negative in tone. She looks at everything as glass-half empty and focuses on the negative. That’s my point.
David, do you know the contract price in 1805?
T2,
nope, I’m not involved in the transaction. We’ll have to just wait and see.
The best run buildings in the city cap rentals so that investors don’t take over the building (and you don’t have people moving in and out pulling down the value of the building.)
But if you don’t believe me and you live in 600 N. Fairbanks with over 20% rental (which could go higher), you’ll find out soon enough (especially as the hallways and other common areas take a beating from the movers coming in and out constantly.)
From what I understand, the majority have already voted down any kind of rental cap in the building which means there are too many investor owners already.
By the way- I’m not picking solely on 600 NF as far as rentals are concerned. Most new buildings (maybe with the exception of Belgravia’s buildings which had a 1-year no-flip clause) have this problem.
There were simply too many investor buyers and not enough people who wanted to live there. They have no choice but to rent out the units (or take a loss by selling.) So why would they vote for a cap on rentals? They wouldn’t.
Rentals are a hell of a lot better than empty unsold units and forclosures and un-closable units.
If I were an owner occupant but with a shorter time horizon (maybe under seven years planning to reside there) I would consider no cap on rentals a good thing.
I worked with a guy here who owned a condo in Florida. Yeah specvestor all the way. Well it wasn’t so much the capital depreciation that was killing him it was the HOA put a ban on rentals.
Guess what is almost guaranteed to happen now? He’s going to foreclosure.
Top six reasons your home won’t sell:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/chi-restate-glink-home-sell_0802aug02,0,4261146.story
It leaves out my favorite one: you’re a fvcking idiot who bought at the peak.
Oh I can’t stand it anymore. I just finished reading Bob’s referenced article and thought, “they haven’t covered my situation” and then jag-in-a-box Bob squares the circle for all of us idiots.
What’s that Bob Dylan line?
I wish that for just one time.
You could stand inside my shoes.
You’d know what a drag it is.
To see (read) you
Dollface,
I wouldn’t despair. When I talk about people that are royally screwed in the RE game, you really aren’t very far up on the list. You bought small and bought awhile ago. Your losses are going to be minimal (if any) on your place. So what you have to experience some life inconvenience in the meantime.
And also look on the bright side: the government is squarely in your corner throwing cash incentives at first time homeowners and the FHA is propping up the entry level segment with low down loans still. Thats not the case in higher segments of the market.
You aren’t really an idiot, just unlucky. That guy I used to work with with the condo if Florida..well..
I told you dollface, bob is sweet on you. see how he softened up when you pretended to be hurt / started quoting song lyrics.
I hope you guys invite crib chatter peeps to the wedding. Just don’t seat me with westloopelo.
Sonies: If the rental ratio gets too high, buyers won’t be able to get a loan in the building (under the new lending guidelines.)
20% isn’t the problem. It’s when it’s 30%, 40%, 50% that it really hurts the building. But without a cap, there’s nothing to stop owners in the future from renting it out. What does a building do when they approach 30% or higher? It’s already too late to stop the rentals.
By the way, there are currently 15 rentals on the MLS for 600 N. Fairbanks. I don’t know how many were rentals previously (from when the building first sold) or if these are new rentals adding to the already high rental number in the building.
Interestingly, #3001 just came on the market as a rental even though it just went under contract.
Sabina,
I don’t believe that you can set rental caps in condo buildings.
If one owner is allowed to rent his unit then all owners have to have the same rights under law. I have never lived in a building with rental caps. Only restrictions that I have seen are min. one year leases. You might be able to change the rules that grandfather current owners the ability and any new owners cannot rent there units out. I am not sure this will fly either.
valasko,
We’ve missed you!
You can place a rental cap if enough people vote for it. They haven’t received enough ballots back to vote on it at 600NF.
I have heard 340 on the Park has a rental cap at 15%.
I agree that the legality of it seems a bit dubious. Why should a person be allowed to rent over that of the incremental person who also wants to rent?
Too many rental is a kiss of death for a building. With financing as tight as it is, the last thing you want as a unit owner is to have all your neighbors renting their units. It will make it harder for potential buyers to obtain financing to buy your unit further eroding your property value.
HOAs can restrict the number of units rented in their development.
Plenty of buildings restrict it:
The Palmolive
The Pinnacle
The Pearson
To name just a few.
340 OTP passed a restriction? I’d be surprised at that given the number of rentals originally in the building.
If your building has more than 50% rental- under the new lending requirements, you cannot get financing AT ALL. The buyer must have all cash. I’ve gotten e-mails from readers who have run into this (when looking to buy).
Dumb, meet dumb.
Glad you all know each other now….
“Sonies: If the rental ratio gets too high, buyers won’t be able to get a loan in the building (under the new lending guidelines.)”
That’s interesting because i purchased in march and had no problems obtaining financing, and I believe that my building is around or even slightly over 50% rentals… at least its 100% occupied…
600 North Fairbanks is the most gorgeous building in the city. When the economy recovers, the owners will resell quickly and with high profits. There are beautiful houses and condos all over the country just sitting with no showings -this is all a reflection of out economy. I am very jealous of anyone who was smart enough to purchase at 600 N. Fairbanks.
karen is right – building looks fantastic – in the end, that’s all that counts – I hear the appliances are top of the line
David,
Did you ever find out if 3607 included the parking space or not?
I’m curious about 3302 as well.
does anyone know if there are units for sale at 600 north on the lower floors – i want a one bedroom in that building and i figure the lower floor will be a bit less expensive – can’t wait to own the most magnificent rooftop in the city!
340 OTP passed the 15% cap a year ago. Any condo already rented or any condo listed for rent (at the time of the vote) was grandfathered in.
T2,
As far as I can tell, both 3607 and 3302 included parking
And I agree with Karen!
“I am very jealous of anyone who was smart enough to purchase at 600 N. Fairbanks.”
Why not join them? You can get pre-con prices today. You will be as smart as all the other geniuses in the building who saw easy money, especially those speculators who make up over 30% of the owners.
I seriously doubt that current owners will ever make a profit in real dollars. That’s what happens when you buy at the peak of the bubble with artificially low interest rates and non-existent jumbo qualifying standards.
Speaking about all of the rentals, when will the downward rent trend reverse? That’s got to be causing pain. I guess we’ll see how that plays out with all the investors.
I know I’ll be watching.
Taking pleasure in other people’s pain is really sad and pathetic. You need to get a life.
Deacon, Deaconblue
Where are you?
We’ve got some capital losses to give you!
What capital losses, I haven’t lost anything on my unit. Are you talking about your stock market trades? Pessimistic losers don’t do well in this society, Bob, you make want to change your tune.
“Pessimistic losers don’t do well in this society”
And neither do pom-pom heralding cheerleaders.
When you were talking about Chicagoland’s CS index jump were you referring to:
http://housingbubble.typepad.com/.a/6a010536cc90cc970b01157245eb70970b-800wi
WOW WHAT A JUMP!
Bottom’s in! Buy now or be priced out forever!
Who said anything about a jump? I said that the market had stabilized, thanks for providing evidence to support my claim. I’ll say it again- you and HD are getting more shrill and desperate by the day, it’s sad to watch.
Long after things have leveled out, neither of you will be able to afford a place because you are losers who spend all day on message boards wishing that bad things will happen to others so that you can benefit. Maybe you should use some of your savings to remodel your mother’s basement where you will be living for the foreseeable future.
“Taking pleasure in other people’s pain is really sad and pathetic.”
You’ve got that all wrong, just like with everything else, you DB.
My joy comes from knowing how happy buyers will be when they purchase their units for post-bubble prices.
Their patience and market intelligence should be celebrated.
G, you still didn’t answer my question- how does a $6,000 price drop equal capitulation? Anyone can make silly claims like you, why are you scared to back them up? You are getting more desperate by the day…
Deaconblue,
Shouldn’t you be working on an update version of your favorite commercial?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBeUGqeYsQg
I see your frustration: trying to serve RE Kool Aid to this crowd similarly to how you probably do to everyone you know in real life. Unfortunately we’re better critical thinkers than most (or all) of your friends and are having none of it and your frustration is boiling over 😀
We’re not drinking the RE Kool Aid DB. But go ahead and justify your views for one weekend of the A&W show justify dropping hundreds of thousands of dollars more than one should on real estate.
The DB,
Note what I said: “Sales typically pick-up when the onset of capitulation triggers knife-catching.”
Please note, also, that every sale this year has resulted in the seller losing money.
I have a very optimistic outlook for those who were smart enough to avoid the bubble and continue to wait for the better deals to come. “Pessimistic losers don’t do well in this society,” DB, so you might want to look on the bright side for a change.
Sorry Bob, I’m going to be out of town this weekend and will miss the Show. I’ll be sure to have you over next year.
G, I’m sure that $6,000 loss is going to break that stupid flipper!
4003 sold (duplex penthouse).
And apparently the owners made a profit.
3406 recently sold — closing within the next week I hear.
3301 also recently sold.
“G, I’m sure that $6,000 loss is going to break that stupid flipper!”
The DB sure knows how to make “silly claims.”
3607/p61 closed 3/28/08 for $646,500.
The flipper borrowed $417,000.
The flipper listed it for sale on 3/31/08.
The flipper was a realtor.
The unit does not appear to have been rented.
The flipper drywalled all of the ceilings (was this done by the developer prior to close?)
3607/p61 closed 7/21/09 for $640,000.
Loss on sale: -$6,500
Transfer tax on purchase: -4,850
Transfer tax on sale: -2,880
Commission on sale (2.5%): -16,000
Opportunity cost of $229,500 down @1%: -3,000
Interest on mortgage: -30,000
Ceiling drywall: ?
I think they may have lost more than $6,000.
Studio apartment in Uptown: Priceless
#4003/p25 closed 6/9/08 for $1,710,000
listed 6/10/09 for $1,834,900 plus $65,000 pkg
contract 7/13/09 for ? currently pending
Note: The seller did not make money if it sold for less than 96% of list at 6% transaction costs. The loss to rental equivalent was considerable, too.
#3406/p1216 closed 4/28/08 for $426,500
listed 5/5/08 for $445,000 plus $50,000 pkg
cancelled 8/6/08 after reduction to $435,000 plus $50,000 pkg
It appears a tenant was found at that time and is still in the unit.
listed 5/4/09 for $420,000 plus $50,000 pkg
contract 5/19/09 for ? currently pending
Note: The seller did not make money if it sold for less than 96% of list at 6% transaction costs. In addition, a loss to vacancy/neg cash flow occurred, too.
#3301 is one of the remaining developer units. It is currently listed at $949,000 with pkg and the listing states $30K in upgrades. It went under contract 7/22/09. A look at similar units that appear to have been at pre-con prices:
#3201/p44 closed 2/25/08 for $1,037,000
#3401/p97 closed 3/3/08 for $1,058,000
I don’t think these contracts will change the fact that every resale in 2009 has lost money here.
As ever, incredibly useful data. Thanks, G.
Counting other people’s money makes you look bitter.
Stick to property values.
G, you sure have an awful lot of time to devote to focusing on other people’s misfortunes. Is your life really so empty that it makes you feel good?
By the way G, I’ll still waiting for you to explain why the fact that one out of twelve sellers selling for $6k under the last purchase price is “capitulation.” Capitulation has nothing to do with carrying and selling costs. What this is really about is your need to put a negative spin on everything and your deeply held resentments. Perhaps you should talk to a shrink about this?
There goes T2 on the defensive again. Whenever he doesn’t like facts he attacks the messenger.
Sorry T2 the fact that these people took losses has nothing to do with how G allocates his time.
Keep trying to attack and be the arbiter of how everyone spends their time. Perhaps you would like a stopwatch? 😀
LOL. Not only do these updates take very little of my time, but they have become quite the learning experience for several interns.
4003 just resold for:
Sold Price: $1,875,000
Previous Sale
6/9/08
Sold Price: $1,710,000
3805 just closed
$1,222,500
#3805 was a developer unit that closed 8/12/09 for $1,222,500 w/pkg.
Similar unit sales:
#3705/p517 closed 7/8/2008 for $1,255,500
#3905 leased by developer 7/09 for $6450 w/pkg
#4003/p25 closed 8/10/09 for $1,875,000
#4003/p25 closed 6/9/08 for $1,710,000
Transaction costs alone don’t make this one a money loser. Very odd for this building.
David, do you know for certain if 3607 and 3302 included parking?
T2,
No idea but I am virtually certain they both did. Yes, those sellers took a sizable loss.
Call the listing agents to confirm.
-David
Let me just say this – gains or losses – who cares? If you live in a gorgeous building (600 North) and you enjoy every minute of living in that building – and you have the most amazing rooftop deck in the city (just saw the air and water show) and everyone in your building is classy and all the staff is amazing and you are thrilled every time you walk into the lobby – that is what a good life is about. It is not to sit and count your winnings. Winning is loving your building.
“Let me just say this – gains or losses – who cares?”
It might be of some concern to the ~40% of unit owners who are speculators.
Hi all –
I’m moving to Chicago and am considering purchasing in this building. This discussion has been tremendously helpful in understanding trends to date. But what do folks think about the trend going forward? What’s an attractive price per sq ft in this building? What’s the general marke price psf for this type of property in Chicago?
Thanks!
SS
SS –
I bought in 600nf 9 months ago when I relocated from NYC to Chicago. I cound’t be happier. The building is well run, and the staff is great. My neighbors are also great. (As an example, there have been a series of “condo crawls”, where 3-4 owners volunteer to open their units up and serve food and drinks on a given night. It’s been a great way to see how everyone has decorated.)
It’s also fun to see how much all of my conservative/traditional friends love my place. My building (particularly the roof deck) has become their new favorite hangout.
NJL
I totally agree with NJL. My wife and I have been renting in the building for the past year and a half, and it’s been fantastic. In fact, we’ve liked it so much that we just bought a place in the building. We love the design, aesthetic, staff, roofdeck, and neighborhood. We find it to be a classy, unique, and relaxing place to live. We spent the better part of the last year looking at other buildings, condos and townhouses and just didn’t find anything we liked better. As for how much to pay, only you can be the judge of that. But you can find out how much places in the building have been selling for by searching online, and on threads like this one. But, it does seem like there’s been a lot of interest in the building recently. Lots of places have sold in the last month or two, which bodes well for future value.
There is interest here recently because sellers have begun to capitulate and are now willing to sell for a loss. There are still many stuck flippers needing an exit so there is no chance that the bottom has been reached.
How that “bodes well for future value” is a mystery to me.
On the bright side, if you believe that paying a premium is necessary to impress your new neighbors, you still have time to act. For everyone else, your best bet is to rent and wait. Plenty of rentals in the bldg and they have only declined in rent since opening.
The volume of recent sales in the building clearly signals that there is sizeable pool of buyers who are interested in these units.
And the fact that G needs to imbed a 6% comission in order to illustrate losses on the majority of the resales, tells me prices have been holding firm. In fact, in the many cases (dare I say the majority) units have recently sold for slightly higher prices.
I’m not going to say that buying a unit in this building with the idea of flipping it in the next couple of years is a good idea. Any I’m not going to argue that buying a unit in the building with the hope of renting and realizing positive cash flow is a good idea. But I will definitely argue that in a seriously lousy real estate market this building is a “stand out” amongst it’s peer in terms of how prices have held relative to the overall market. IF someone is in the market to buy a place they intend to actually live in, I think this building will prove to be a good investment.
(BTW, I find it rather amusing that most of the regulars on this board make fun of speculators/flippers/investors…. yet that is the lens through which you measure how well a building has performed.)
“And the fact that G needs to imbed a 6% comission in order to illustrate losses on the majority of the resales”
You can imagine any value you want, but it can only be realized upon sale. For that, there are costs.
That is a 6% transaction cost, not commission. 1.2% is for transfer taxes alone. That leaves 4.8% for commission, title fees, loan fees, points. It is a very low estimate.
BTW, I find it rather amusing that some don’t seem to understand that RE values are set at the margins.
Unit 1502 Closed today for $580,000 including parking.
Previous close, Sold Price: $575,000
Feb 2008
No G…you freaking dumbass. You get to carry assets at full value and leave out unrealized liabilities. Can’t believe you are not up to date with the new U.S. banking inspired FASB balance sheet accounting standards… sheesh!!!
“You get to carry assets at full value and leave out unrealized liabilities”
Full **PRO FORMA** value, no? So, as long as I can document my reasonable basis for assuming 20% annual value growth, no problem, right?
Exactamundo! And the financial reports accurately represent the underlying economic condition of the companies in question.
http://www.thehindu.com/fline/fl2008/images/20030425007100510.jpg
Nothing to see here folks… move along.
Man you really are pushing it tonight Anon… It’s funny cause it’s true. You get 15% built into the analysis and not a penny more. I swear I worked a short stint with a company that ran a massive analysis division for assets deals that backed into their estimates by building in a 15% return. I used to just flip out over it and get myself persona non grata for pointing out why not fire all but 1 person.
“let’s run an analysis on that”
“WTF!! You already know the damn answer, it will be profitable, it’s always profitable!!!!!”
and most amazingly the analysis would take days to run….
Bob.. thanks for the laugh.. I need to walk my dogs.
Oh and since you riled me up with bad memories, the other thing that would set me off the wall completely batshit freakin insane was the checkmark graph… love that it is now being done with little things like GDP.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9ZzZquaXrR8/SpamS-OkYtI/AAAAAAAAErw/uB9g5HTqr04/s1600-h/DecadeofDebt3.gif
T2,
1502 closed yesterday and 1805 will be closing soon
Thanks for the update David, it great to see so many transactions getting done.
16 units closed since 1/1/09.
11 uits closed since 6/1/09.
35 units currently active.
3 units currently pending.
80+ units still held by speculators.
G, where is the 80+ number coming from?
1805 closed for $625,000 including parking
Not sure of previous sale price but this was a resale
Previous Sale for 1805
$672,000.00
11/15/07
Sorry T2, this is a large loss.
“G, where is the 80+ number coming from?”
A count of unit numbers that have attempted resale and/or rental.
Regarding the 1 bedroom tiers: what kind of idiot buys a one bedroom for 350-450k? Oh the kind that is soon parted with their money.
Bob,
Plenty of people buy one bedrooms for that price. I have a friend right now looking for a 1 bed for around 450K. He simply doesn’t want to take care of a 2/2.
doesn’t seem too high to me either, for now, in that location.
SS and G:
it’s important to understand what a ‘loss’ means in the past year. G’s opportunity cost for cash on a previous calculation was 1%, but that is assuming the person invested their $250k in some kind of interest bearing checking account/money market. On the contrary, many had that kind of money invested in the stock market which incurred ~40% loss in the same time period of when that person bought and sold. If we go apples to apples and just look at real estate, we see from Case Shiller and other indices that most of Chicago, depreciated by 20%. Hence, the real estate investment at 600n fairbanks was safer than most other investment opportunitites here other than holding cash. Seeing that these units sold nowhere near those kinds of losses does in fact seem to ‘bode well for the future.’
I am also a big fan of the building – i don’t think people live there to impress their neighbors but rather to enjoy amazing views and a classy abode!
Agreed David!
Bob, there are a lot of buyers in that price range for one bedrooms. I owned a one bedroom that was 400,000+ in Streeterville a few years ago and was lucky enough to turn a profit in the sale. the units have held their value due to location and the fact there is only one, one bedroom per floor in the building. Sometimes a buyer wants location/finishes/and a certain building and will pay extra for the space. The market downtown is building specific. There are plenty of folks paying 500,000 plus for one bedrooms, even in this market.
Normally I would be skeptical. But I did meet a successful trader Friday that answered my question as to that demographic and lived in that neighborhood (RN).
And you better believe he was a trader and not an uppity banker: he was there for the same reason Bob was: cheap booze. And no it wasn’t RN but the same ‘hood Bob lives in. I guess the moral is there are people with well paying jobs in this city.
Fine. RN might hold its value (maybe), but I still have my doubts about areas closer to me.
And let met add this: just because Chicagoland has a small subset of people that do earn a lot of money should not in any way influence valuations of neighborhoods where these people would never live in.
There is really no reason whatsoever neighborhoods like Albany Park, Old Irving or Bridgeport should demand anywhere near the same premium that neighborhoods where people actually have the incomes to support the valuations.
Sorry but there has been a lot of “riding the coat tails” of people with high incomes over the past decade. And this valuation bubble is over. I am eating popcorn watching the correction.
People with the income = producers.
People owning the assets hoping for the income people to buy their overly inflated assets = leechers.
Touch shyt leechers the party is over. 😀
😀 😀 😀
no need to hate on those hoods , they are not as overvalued as you think.
“There are plenty of folks paying 500,000 plus for one bedrooms, even in this market.”
Didn’t we already see the stats on this? (albeit from a few months ago.) I thought G provided actual sales data on how many of these have “sold” in 2009- and it was like 2 with something like 40 of them listed (in the Near North Side neighborhood.)
So it would take how many years to sell out the inventory?
Actual sales of the $500k 1-bedroom are pretty rare. Of course, that data was from a few months ago when almost nothing was selling. I would be interested to see what it’s like now (but probably not that much has changed.)
The $400k 1-bedroom is probably selling slightly better. But considering there are 20 1-bedrooms in this price range currently on the market as rentals in 600 NF, the market can’t be that great or else the owners would be selling.
CFO with that kind of analysis you definitely can not/should not be a CFO.
So, I just ran a search on 1 bedrooms units with 1 bath (or more) that closed in the area this year between 450-599K
20 closed this year
4 pending
Most were in Parkview, 600 N LSD, and Trump. There were a couple misc units in 55 Erie, 21 Huron, 57 Delaware, 240 IL, etc
Only 20, huh? Out of possibly hundreds of these units?
How many are on the market? That’s the key.
Many never sell and they simply rent them out. I bet the realistic inventory is 4 to 5 years.
And they keep adding them. There will be more in The Legacy, the new One Museum Park West building, 10 E. Delaware, Walton on the Park etc. etc.
“no need to hate on those hoods , they are not as overvalued as you think.”
Yes they are revassal. They absolutely are. There really aren’t the earners that live there. They are only $X per square foot because they are Y miles away from a neighborhood with a subset of high earners. Sorry but Newark, NJ doesn’t have property values at a slight discount to Manhattan and neither will these other ‘hoods have slight discounts to RN.
Not every high income earner chooses to live in trendy or expensive neighborhoods. There are an awful lot of wannabes out there. Do not confuse debt for wealth. There are plenty of high income earners living in modest housing around the city just like there are paycheck to paycheck DINK households living in RN.
Bob, what is wrong with your stereotyping is wrong with your analysis. Don’t judge a book by its cover, Each reasonably size 2 flat has a high earning power (even if subgroups are below the median), IP, AP and other hood are closer to rent parity than the more bubblier hoods. And since they are more diverse in their condo/house mix they will recover sooner.
“IP, AP and other hood are closer to rent parity than the more bubblier hoods.”
I disagree with this statement. The entire city, save for exceptionally dangerous neighborhoods, seems out of whack with regards to rent parity. Its as if everyone got stupid at once.
“And since they are more diverse in their condo/house mix they will recover sooner.”
I haven’t really seen prices fall much in these hoods. Only foreclosures/short sales and then the final transaction price never shows up at the Trib’s website.
For instance lets compare Beverly to Hammond, Indiana. I don’t understand why Beverly house prices would be that much more.
Bob & revassal, OIP, AP and others are close to rental parity *only among the homes that have recently sold*. The majority of homes that sell are lower priced and they are a small minority of MLS listing.
Most homes on the market have been listed more than 60 days and they’re extremely overpriced. It’s not easy to find a near rental parity priced property anywhere in a 2nd tiered neighborhood and nearly impossible in a 1st tiered hood. In OIP there have been probably about a dozen or so near rental parity sold properties in the last 9 months but literally scores of overpriced homes languishing on the market and new overpriced properties are listed everyday. Lower priced homes don’t help anyone who bought during the boom.
“The majority of homes that sell are lower priced and they are a small minority of MLS listing. ”
30-40% of selling homes, low price kind. so 60-70% of sold homes are representative of the rest of MLS.
http://www.redfin.com/search#lat=41.95061777547761&long=-87.73183822631836&market=chicago&sf=&sold_within_months=3&status=1&uipt=3,2,1&v=5&zoomLevel=15
Aww look at all the little monkeys listing their places for 300-450k and yet the market doesn’t agree with them. I bet their listing agents promised them the sky so long as they can list the property and not play solitaire all day.
The bubble was only made possible by giving idiots an unlimited supply of money (debt). Take that away and it all comes crashing down.
Sabrina,
The Legacy and One Museum Park area are NOT in my clients’ search areas.
That is NOT Near North Side 8008.
Sorry, so I would even bother to show them that.
Who cares what happens down there?
WOULDN’T not would.
10 E. Delaware and Walton on the Park ARE on the Near North Side. These buildings will continue to flood the market with overpriced one bedroom units.
I noticed no one here has answered the question about inventory. Like I said- it’s probably 4 to 5 years of inventory (if not another new 1-bedroom was added to the market- which we know isn’t the case.)
The Legacy, one of the tallest all-residential structures in the country, WILL be competition for all the north side properties (just like 340 OTP is.) People love their views.
“The entire city, save for exceptionally dangerous neighborhoods, seems out of whack with regards to rent parity. Its as if everyone got stupid at once.”
Bob: you should check out what’s happening in the suburbs. Houses on the north shore listed for $850,000 or you can rent it for $2500 (and the rental price is negotiable, of course).
It’s comical.
Room sizes for 10 E Delaware Unit 18C 1/1.5 for 569900
They are small. I won’t be showing them.
Living Room 15X14 Main Level Hardwood Master Bedroom 12X11 Main Level Carpet
Dining Room COMBO Main Level Hardwood 2nd Bedroom Not Applicable
Kitchen 10X8 Main Level Hardwood 3rd Bedroom Not Applicable
Family Room Not Applicable 4th Bedroom Not Applicable
Walk in Closet 4X4 Main Level Carpet Foyer 10X5 Main Level Hardwood
Balcony 10X8 Main Level
My clients typically don’t like Wabash/s Loop so the Legacy is not going to compete with the true prestige of gold coast/streeterville areas
And to say it no more politely than this.. The gov’t shot their wad trying to stimulate this economy to no avail. Keep on eye on car sales post clunker, my bet (and a safe one) is it will be beyond horrendous.
Just robbed Paul to pay Peter but hasn’t handed Paul the bill yet. If I were Paul my bags would be packed.
David.. you see here is where the usage of the word “prestige” just ticks my ass off and makes me side with Bob on any idiot buying into a location for “prestige” deserves a good expensive [edited].
You buy nice space, nice views, for proximity to stores, for proximity to transport and work, you buy to be near good restaurants or in a safe location. But you [edited] work that “in the eyes of others” prestige crap and any client that eats that up deserves pain.
It’s like those Louis Vuitton bags, when I see them they just scream out to me easy target, show control and confidence cause this is a girl with low self esteem.
People are just sheep, aren’t they David?
Hi Ze,
I agree with you. To each his/her own!
People are crazy
David,
The Legacy will compete with GC new construction. Those buying New Construction will be open to the Legacy and 340 OTP. New construction buyers are different than GC vintage buyers. I always show the same buyers 270 pearson, 340, Trump, 55 Erie, etc., but I wouldn’t show those same buyers East LSD.
Just my experience>>>
3 1/2 weeks to the Olympics announcement…
I walked past 600 N. Fairbanks again recently and it looks like it was built in 1982. Seriously. Not a fan.
“3 1/2 weeks to the Olympics announcement…”
Goooooooooooooooooo Rio!
Please for the love of god I hope Chicago doesn’t get the olympics
“Goooooooooooooooooo Rio!”
Yeah, Ze, put in a good word for us with the IOC.
HD: “Bob & revassal, OIP, AP and others are close to rental parity *only among the homes that have recently sold*.”
Dude, drinking much? Sometimes you post as if everyone else is a total moron who couldn’t possibly be making a point that makes any sense.
Of course that’s what vassal was talking about–>recent closing prices are close to rental parity in some neighborhoods. Asking prices are just that–asking prices, for both rent and buy. To have a valid point, one MUST look at what the actual transaction prices are.
“Sometimes you post as if everyone else is a total moron who couldn’t possibly be making a point that makes any sense. ”
He’s a BK attorney, he has to “dumb it down” to basically everyone he talks to.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_37/b4146022997904.htm
if the article is right then the buying on the low-side (more than just FTHB) will help the market move it could possibly free capital from some investors and a few home owners looking to move up in the market can help to stabilize the mid-higher market
“He’s a BK attorney, he has to “dumb it down” to basically everyone he talks to.”
The funny thing about that is, it applies whether you’re talking about pro bono chapter 7s for homeless people, or the Enron and GM bankruptcies–almost no one who doesn’t/hasn’t worked in the distressed/bankruptcy field gets it *at all*.
Anon(tfo), chill out man, you’re inserting yourself into discussions not even directed at you. anyway the point I was trying to make is that a dozen recently sold houses sold doesn’t make an entire neighborhood at or near rental parity. It just means that the 12 more recent houses sold at closer to rental parity than the hundreds sold since the bubble started. That distinction seems to be lost on a lot of people, including you.
revassal said “IP, AP and other hood are closer to rent parity than the more bubblier hoods. And since they are more diverse in their condo/house mix they will recover sooner.”
“#anon (tfo) on September 8th, 2009 at 9:10 am
HD: “Bob & revassal, OIP, AP and others are close to rental parity *only among the homes that have recently sold*.”
Dude, drinking much? Sometimes you post as if everyone else is a total moron who couldn’t possibly be making a point that makes any sense.
Of course that’s what vassal was talking about–>recent closing prices are close to rental parity in some neighborhoods. Asking prices are just that–asking prices, for both rent and buy. To have a valid point, one MUST look at what the actual transaction prices are.”
Sonies, sure, there are a lot of less sophisticated people filing BK but there are also a lot of fairly intelligent people doing the same. Living beyond your means has nothing to do with intelligence.
“Living beyond your means has nothing to do with intelligence.”
Yeah its called common sense… which is mutually exclusive to intelligence it seems.
Ever watch an Asian aeronautical engineer try to cross a busy street by foot? Yeah, that’s a pretty good example right there.
“That distinction seems to be lost on a lot of people, including you.”
WTF? Seems the distinction that vassal was making was lost on you, dude.
I don’t know who–other than the owner and his lender–gives a fig what a given property sold for in 02-08, nor does it matter what someone is asking for the property. As gets hammered on, it’s the marginal property *right now* that matters, and you find that in closed sales, not listing prices.
And the marginal property–as you have pointed out a bunch recently–in OIP, AP, and similar areas is much closer to rental parity than many of the “bubblier hoods” as vassal pointed out.
As a footnote to nothing: Our 24- year old son living in LA came to visit us in Madison and then came with us to Chicago. We got into Chicago after dark to our place in River North. We pulled up the blinds and he looked out at the pretty spectacular night time view and he said: “When did you two get so cool.” Answer: when we stopped sending you to 13-years of private school and four years at USC.
Later he said to me, but not his mother, something like he was sorry that he had a girlfriend because if he got a girl into our apartment he wouldn’t have any problem getting laid.
“Please for the love of god I hope Chicago doesn’t get the olympics”
Right there with ya. We have far greater things to worry about, including how the Irish Leprechaun Troll has a 500mm budget deficit for 2010 and is out of options to raise taxes. Also how Quinn and his opponent are out to raise taxes as well.
“Have to keep those CTA workers sitting in those booths at nice 65k salaries with a cushy pension so I guess us populace will have to fork up because liberal F-tards in service sector jobs don’t care and will vote D regardless.”
Bob:
Make no mistake–the Illinois Republican Party is no alternative. If they were, Obama might not be president (Alan Keyes???!!!??? WTF?)
“Our 24- year old son living in LA came to visit us in Madison and then came with us to Chicago. We got into Chicago after dark to our place in River North. We pulled up the blinds and he looked out at the pretty spectacular night time view and he said: “When did you two get so cool.” Answer: when we stopped sending you to 13-years of private school and four years at USC.”
Steve A: just curious- but does your son have a job out in LA? I’ve heard the horror stories of the recent grads and was just wondering if that was true.
I hang out at cheaper bars or bars with specials and I know the horror stories are true for recent college grads in Chicagoland. I’m not talking about liberal arts majors that wanted to work on wall st I’m talking about solid U of I grads or equivalent, attractive, well spoken gals with 3.7+ GPAs in business/finance unable to land entry level positions in corporate America and have done a ton of interviews. The worst victims of this entire thing are those attempting to start off their careers like these folks.
Its sad because in times past I was able to point out to them their problems were largely contrived and a figment of their youthful imagination and things are on the up and up and its in their control. This time I actually agree with them (in my head) but try not to tell them that as who likes a damn buzzkill who can’t even help them out..
Sabrina:
Our son was able to get employment several times right out of USC as the office assistant in a number of production companies. The USC connection helped. Starting as an office assistant is a standard career path for young film school grads who have not wowed everyone as an undergrad (think Spielberg type of skill.) Answering phones, making hotel reservations, running errands, and getting yelled at a lot is not what he was cut out to do. One of his jobs only lasted three-days. He had a script optioned, but not produced. He is currently, as I like to call it, on the retail side of the film biz and beginning to re-think his future as a screenwriter. He is, for the most part with a little help from us, paying his own way, which was more than I was doing at his age.
He is now applying to graduate schools for a doctorate in film-related topics like Culture and Media Studies. He likes the program they have here in Madison. They have a very good placement rate for their PhDs at some high-end schools; he would get a teaching assistantship; and, it would be nice to have him in the same town us after six years of being 1,000 to 2,000 miles apart.
His girlfriend, and one of his friends from high school, are pages at NBC, which is an entree into the TV business. You make contacts with the various units within the organization and they hope is that you can move into a position with one of them. Both went to schools in the East; Wheaton (Boston) and Syracuse. Family money is allowing some of his USC friends to do nothing but write. One of his friends is an assistant to an executive at HBO where he started as an intern when he was at USC. Another USC friend is doing free-lance film work in Chicago, and two others are working on a family documentary in NYC. One of his former roommates has already written three scripts that have been made into films and actually released. He is several years older than the others and way more talented.
The proud Poppa Steve 🙂
from now on i am going to refer to you as poppa steve!
Is it that obvious? I didn’t even talk about the prize he and a roommate won for the best script at the LA Screamfest 2007. That the script that was optioned but not produced. Alas.
He’s only 24. I didn’t get my first real job until I was 28. My parents funded me for many years in grad school, which in those days was much much, much cheaper than now. Out of state tuition at UNC was only $385.00 per semester in the early 70s!!!
Is it that obvious? I didn’t even talk about the prize he and a roommate won for the best script at the LA Screamfest 2007. That the script that was optioned but not produced. Alas.
He’s only 24. I didn’t get my first real job until I was 28. My parents funded me for many years in grad school, which in those days was much much, much cheaper than now. Out of state tuition at UNC was only $385.00 per semester in the early 70s!!!
out of state 350.00 really, man guess when inflation hits prices just go down. in-state public for me like 5 years ago was like 3-4K a semester,
You can always depend on a slow economy to really point out which schools’ tuition is really worth it when applying for jobs.
Today we’re going to play name this loan: This consumer loan has –
1. very high borrowing limits,
2. no income verification,
3. made primarily to low/bad credit borrowers,
4. has teaser interest rates,
5. negatively amortizes,
6. has graduated payment plans with terms over 30 years or more
7. relatively high default rates
8. relatively high interest rates
9. No payments for four years or more.
Is it:
A. an Option ARM mortgage?
B. a Capital One credit card?
or C. US Dept. of Education Direct Loans?
The answer is C. Direct Educations Loans share virtually
And we wonder why tuition has risen 3x the rate of inflation for the last 20 years. DUH! Student loans and Option ARM loans share so many things in common!
“Student loans and Option ARM loans share so many things in common!”
Hey–you came around to my point, HD–borrowing for law school increases the costs
for everyone else, including the other borrowers.
The best way to lower tuition costs is to curtail student loans. There are too many schools charging an arm and a leg for tuition and the students aren’t getting anything out of it and it is all driven by the fact you can get unlimited financing. Unless you are going to a handful of schools for undergrad, it makes ZERO sense to take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans for a third tier toilet undergrad degree as I am sure many are finding out now when they hit the job market
It is one thing to pay $40k/yr to go to H/Y/P et al or MIT, Stanford, etc versus 2nd and 3rd tier schools. Better off saving the money for grad school.
“It is one thing to pay $40k/yr to go to H/Y/P et al or MIT, Stanford, etc ”
I’m not even sure about that. I went to an inexpensive undergrad but expensive grad. One guy in the school poker club went to an expensive undergrad and had a combined total of 195k in undergrad and grad school loans. He also had a family to support. Lucky for him he was damn good at poker–I would never want to be in that situation.
Bob:
The difference shows up in the job market of those grads. The cost tends to be worth it because the prestige of those schools stay with you infinitely and offer higher prospects of employment intiially. At some point, the value of your degree dimenishes as you go down the prestige latter and you have to question if the school is worth it based on the employment prospects afforded by the school.
One thing that happens when the economy is booming is that the high paying/prestige companies tend to expand their recruiting pools. When it contracts, they go back to their core group of schools.
Typically, those schools above don’t really suffer as much as say a generic state U might. So instead of a Harvard undergrad getting a position with a hedgefund, he might have to “settle” for Goldman or McKinsey. Whereas I assure you those firms and its peers won’t give many schools the time of day…
This is what I saw in my past life in corporate america and when in b-school. Not saying it is fair or anything like that, but that is what happens. Therefore, I can see paying $40k for Harvard given the opportunities given their grads whether getting a job on Wall Street or applying for law school or other career options versus say paying $40k to attend (insert no name third tier school to avoid offending anyone).
You can pay off student loans, even $195k, in less than 10 years, on less than $100,000 a year salary. It’s not that hard – it just depends on how entitled you feel to life’s luxuries. You just have to frugal and pay all of your disposable income to the bank. No daily sbux, no fancy vacations to hawaii, no bmw, no 2/2 mortgage in LP, no louis vitton bags, etc.
Its easy: 1/2 of rent is $500 bucks, Food $200 bucks a month, utilities $150 bucks, car ins. $50 bucks, spending cash & gas$800 bucks, and the rest, literally every penny, goes to the student loans. They get paid off really quick especially if you’re making upwards of $100k a year.
It gets hard to pay $195k a year in loans when you’re on unemployment or only make $35k because there isn’t much disposable income.
At the end of 10 years….$100k a year salary; zero debt, the wisdom of restrained spending habits…I know plenty of people making $100k a year and are hundreds of K in the hole with mortgages, car notes, credit cards, vacations, private schools, etc…
different strokes for different folks.
As we were in b-school and this guy was in his early 30s, he would be in his early 40s by the time his loans were paid off per your guesstimate. Unless he hits in big post b-school and with his kids growing older, I’d guess he’ll never be able to enjoy life’s luxuries.
Given tuition inflation each year, I am sensing it makes less and less economic sense to pursue higher education. Especially as the pool of higher paying jobs straight out of the gate is drastically cut.
Debt is like a weight you need to carry around in life. I’m not sure I can really call someone with prestigious degrees but tons of debt really better off than say a plumber who makes 70k/year. There appears to be a lot of ex-post self-reinforcement of those who pursued higher and advanced education and self-congratulating going on. But from an ROI standpoint it often doesn’t appear to make sense.
Would you rather spend 40 hours a week in a climate controlled office shuffling papers for $90k a year with some debt or $70k a year plumbing other people excrement with no debt?
“I’m not sure I can really call someone with prestigious degrees but tons of debt really better off than say a plumber who makes 70k/year.”
ah steve,
“Is it that obvious? I didn’t even talk about the prize he and a roommate won for the best script at the LA Screamfest 2007. That the script that was optioned but not produced”
i see myself the same way in 20 years, i email videos to friends and family of the new things little groove does. I send pictures of my son to friends i havent talked to in like 10 years 🙂
“Out of state tuition at UNC was only $385.00 per semester in the early 70s”
wholy inflation batman!
instate for me was like 3k a semester. shoot community college was like 800-1k a semester!!!!
Rank and file corporate workers, not those with significant barriers to entry like attorneys, are extremely expendable. Almost to the point of being commoditized. But people are inevitably going to have problems with their crap pipes and need someone to fix them.
“You can pay off student loans, even $195k, in less than 10 years, on less than $100,000 a year salary. It’s not that hard”
My initial reaction was that this was quasi-absurd, but I ran the numbers and with HD’s (absurdly frugal) budget, the income required to service the budget + $195k in loans at 6.8% (today’s going rate) on the 10 year repayment plan is under $65k. And at that income you’d get a big tax break for the student loan interest, at least in the first couple years.
So, doable. Crappy way to live, imo, but doable. Just like paying off that mortgage at 6x income–cut everything else out, you can make it work.
how long until there is a college tuition etf to short.
It does seem absurd but it is a heck of way to pay off student loans. Student loans are burden and best put behind you as soon as possible.
It’s not as crappy living as you would think, especially if you have a second household income. It’s basically living like a working class joe, not that there’s anything wrong with that, it’s like living on the proverbial ‘living wage’ of $25k or $30k a year, $15.00 an hour, etc. It’s not bad at all, its totally doable, like I said, it depends on what you feel entitled to. Do you feel entitled to live in a home with a $2,500 a month mortgage or a $1,000 a month apartment? Do you drink a sbux latte or do you make maxwell house at home? Do you vacation in wisconsin or california? Do you go out to eat at Leona’s or Marche? Do you drive a Mercedes or a Hyanudi? It’s those little difference that add up, and you take that difference and pay your student loans over 10 years.
a 10 year repayment plan is really just doubling the payment on the 30 year plan; and the 15 year plan requires adding only 50% to the 30 year minimum payment. WHen you save enough money on rent v. mortgage to pay 3x or 4x the minimum monthly payment, even on a $65k a year salary, that you can make a real dent in those loans. I’m just preaching the dave ramsey debt free method here, it’s nothing new to anybody.
$500 a month rent is half of a $1,000 a month 2 bed in logan sq. or anywhere on the NW side; $200 food is $50 bucks a week – do you cook all your own healthy meals and save the leftovers or do you eat out? $150 utilites is $60 internet, $40 electric, $40 gas (which might be a little low for central forced heat but appropriate if your building has radiators), no cable watch HD channels over the air, $800 disposable is $200 a week for CTA el pass (20 a week) and going out, dollar beers, medical co-pays, personal grooming and hygiene, etc….it’s doable, it’s not that frugal, it’s called working class.
It all depends on the rate. I have over 15k of student loan debt remaining with a rate of 1.625%. Without substantial evidence of deflation I’m going to stretch that out. Unfortunately for new grads they aren’t originating federal loans anymore at anywhere near that rate despite the Federal Reserve pushing a ZIRP.
Good question CH not sure it would be possible to securitize that as there is no index. You can however go short on pools of consumer loans. And they are performing horribly from what I’ve read (the shorts are doing well).
Its not just a mortgage debt mess me have in this country its much broader. America for the past 25 years has maintained and increased its standard of living not via increasing real incomes but by piling on ever increasing amounts of debt. Eventually a crack formed in the debt dam and the levy broke last year.
Living like a hermit for 10 years sounds awesome. But hey at least when that time is up you can tell your one remaining friend you have left that you don’t have any more student loans to pay off
Sonies: You really need to get out of River North more often, really. Sometimes I can’t tell if you’re just being ridiculous or if you really think that way …
Bob: substantial risk of deflation? haven’t you been reading Mish lately?
“Sonies on September 9th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Living like a hermit for 10 years sounds awesome. But hey at least when that time is up you can tell your one remaining friend you have left that you don’t have any more student loans to pay off.”
Bob and HD are some frugal basterdz!!!!!!!
dude 200 for food???? now thats college eating money not grown folk money.
$200 for one person is $50 bucks a week. Go shop at a mexican grocery store or local produce market. cabbage is 19c a pound. chicken legs are 49c a pound. carrots at 39c a pound. It can be done. $200 for one person per month is luxurious. Heck, you get that for food stamps:
Unit Size
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Maximum Benefit
$200 $367 $526 $668 $793 $952 $1,052 $1,202 $1,352 $1,502
Your position in life is only temporary you never know what tomorrow will bring.
“Go shop at a mexican grocery”
90% of the shopping is at Mexican or Polish grocery stores 🙂 the produce is way better for half the price. my butcher closed 2 years ago still trying to find an equivilent.
$200 month is tight for one person, doable, but tight.
we cook monday-thursdays, friday is date night dinner out, saturday is a free for all, sunday is old school norman rockwell formal dinner. there is no way we could to 200 per person a month.
The best way to live frugally is to never taste what it is like to live like a big baller. Once you get used to not having to live on a budget, it is hard to go back.
One thing I find funny though is that when we are younger we lust for a lot material things, but once you get to a point where you can actually afford them, they aren’t nearly as satisfying.
“Sonies: You really need to get out of River North more often, really. Sometimes I can’t tell if you’re just being ridiculous or if you really think that way …”
Little from column A, little from column B… seriously, $50 a week on food? What on earth are you eating, Ramen noodles for dinner? No breakfast? Even those awful things are a buck a piece…
I’ve been to all parts of the city and there are many places I would not want to live. Pretty much everywhere out of the green zone I wouldn’t want to live. My wife and I don’t need much space, just proximity to nearby things to do like a dog park, grocery store, entertainment, etc. Personally I think LP and LV are very overrated.
Living close to work is priceless. Who after a 8-10 hour day wants to spend another 2 hours (1hr each way) in the car in traffic or on some train or bus that smells like piss, vomit, garbage, or you name it.
But anyway paying off incredibly low rate, tax deductible loans is stupid. If you threw down $200k on your education you had either have a PHD, or be a graduate of a damn good law school and making good money. With that, your income should increase in years to come and you will be able to comfortably pay the principal down faster on that.
Yeah spending your life living like a hermit and paying off those loans from ages 22-32 seems like a great financial idea in theory, but it just doesn’t work that way. Unless you don’t want to get laid, vacation, or have any fun pretty much ever.
“$200 for one person per month is luxurious. Heck, you get that for food stamps:”
LOL! yes, clearly we should all be as financially prudent as you and live on the budget of someone on food stamps. LOLOL!
“But anyway paying off incredibly low rate, tax deductible loans is stupid. If you threw down $200k on your education you had either have a PHD, or be a graduate of a damn good law school and making good money.”
Thats the thing Sonies. These days the expensive undergrad tuition is 40k. Even assuming they bust their arse for a day job to cover their living expenses thats still 160k in debt straight out of the gate. Tack on law school at another 40k/yr and you’re at 280k in debt.
The only people who truly pay the price are those who can’t get grants or scholarships. Our government has engineered society via easy access to student loan credit and selective grants to essentially pick financial winners and losers.
“haven’t you been reading Mish lately?”
Over-reliance on one point of view is what got us into this.
“Unless you don’t want to get laid, vacation, or have any fun pretty much ever.”
Again, don’t assume that living on working class budget is living like a hermit. To you it’s living like a hermit – to others its living how the other half lives.
Groove: $200 a month for food for 1 person, $526 for three people like your household.
I’ll definitely back HD’s budget… $515 rent for rent, $35 for cable/net, $30 for gas, $20 electric (my half of everything), $90 metra + linkup (no car pmt, ins, or gas), $50 for a phone, about $750 for everything else. And I think I live a pretty good lifestyle. BYOBs with cheap wine allow for a nice but inexpensive night out (think tango sur, pizza art cafe, etc.). food/drink packages and beer speicals at the bar. 47″ LCD off woot so I can enjoy the games at home instead of going out. i’ve spent my last two weekends in st. louis and on lake huron, the next two in toronto and detroit, goin to NYC this fall. spend one night with friends and another at a nice hotel for free using points from work travel. all within my $750 spending budget. There’s plenty of fun to be had without spending too much.
“Groove: $200 a month for food for 1 person, $526 for three people like your household.”
i give you props, the grooves groceries are like 350-500 and that doenst include dining out 🙂
we are frugal too, not HD or Bob frugal, but we like to splurge too!
that what life is planning ahead but living it too.
Bob, 160k in debt would only be someone who didn’t qualify for any grants/scholarships (federal or private) and who put everything on interest-bearing loans. Most people have some cash or are getting forgivable funding.
The elite places have cut out loans for the most part, anyway (they subsidize what isn’t covered by grants), though it’s questionable whether those policies will continue with shrinking endowments.
to clarify, by elite here I only mean those at the very top: H/Y/P
Is this site cribchatter or cheapchatter?
And there is nothing wrong with being furgal so long as you are enjoying life.
“we are frugal too, not HD or Bob frugal”
Not even Bob is HD frugal, unless necessity dictates.
Yes I am able to save slightly over half my net income and cut out a lot of luxuries, I’ve found I can live relatively well just by being selective in my consumption. No I’m not willing to give up cable, a cell phone, a car, etc in the interests of saving a few extra dollars because the impact on my lifestyle would be extreme.
Vacations to Vegas? I can just party it up here at $1 beer bars and have almost as much fun. And yea Sonies while you may value walking to work I’ve found that neighborhoods in close proximity to the professional jobs tend to have higher rents as well as higher costs of living for the things I consume so the commute is worth it to me.
That’s true bob, but not having a car saves a shitload of money, hell I rent out my parking spot for 150 beers worth of money every month 🙂
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/09/queen-of-coupons-feeds-family-for-10.html
Hey, I’m just a working stiff surviving on a living wage, and using most of my disposable income to repay my student loan lenders 100% of what I owe them, with interest, in something less than 10 years. If there’s something dishonorable about that, please let me know.
lol
valasko on September 9th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Is this site cribchatter or cheapchatter?
I could be some bum who screws all his creditors, living off credit card debt, a condo in foreclosure, but instead I live within my means and repay my creditors on time and with interest and somehow this is a bad thing? Debt does not equal wealth; pay off debt, earn wealth; spend the money when you have it and live nice. I don’t have the money today because it’s really the bank’s money – I’m just the temporary custodian.
When I have the money for myself in a few years, believe me, I will be the table next to you at Morton’s scarfing down a lobster tail, a dozen oysters and a 24 ribeye. Except I’ll pull out a wad of cash to pay the bill and you’ll be pulling out the Captial ONe visa. what’s in ur wallet! peace out guys and gals, have a nice night.
I’ll be sitting next to you paying with my Chase Freedom card that earns a 3.75% rebate or an Amex Blue with 5% rebate. Also I won’t have to worry about getting robbed and losing a ton of cash like you. Insurance will never reimburse you for carrying around large sums of money.
For those who don’t live paycheck to paycheck and can manage debt you can make CCs work for you. The vast majority of Americans aren’t fiscally disciplined for this but there are a lot of people that have made a lot of money off the CC companies.
Over the past year I have probably made or saved a combined total of $1,000 from playing the CC games. And I never even had a CC until I was 27 (and never needed one), but I met an expert at this and never looked back.
To those with decent credit scores they are throwing large credit lines at 0% APR for up to a year. Why not put your living expenses on that and pay down more interest bearing SL debt in the interim? I did that with my car note over the past year. 😀
I would be interesting if out at the bars one night, homedelete and Bob ran into Steve A’s subsidized son and his LA media brats living off parents’ money. Imagine the conversation! LOL!
Bob:
Our Marriott credit card points have taken us to London (3 times), Paris, Amsterdam, NYC, and Dublin staying at high end Marriotts and flying for free. We pay off the credit card every month.
Expect those benefits to end or be severely curtailed come October when the new credit card laws take effect.
oh great.
“Expect those benefits to end or be severely curtailed come October when the new credit card laws take effect.”
Bob: you give us all faith in the next generation of Americans. You are the best. If only every other young American knew what you know. Good for you.
Marriott reduced the value of their points and raised the ratings of some of their hotels, further lessening the value of their points, earlier this year. It created a firestorm especially among their timeshare purchasers. It is doubtful that they will do anything further to devalue their points in the near future.
I’m surprised no one is commenting about 3301 closing…
Regarding 600 Fairbanks, 3301 was MY listing, not Laura Topp’s. And it recently closed for $948,041. You were referring here to unit #3001 and I would kindly ask that you post a correction to the site. Sloppy reporting…
Thanks Jennifer. I don’t know how I would have had the wrong link in there. But I will correct it.
Anyone have any updates on recent sales in this building?
So far, 18 closings in 2009! The building is definitely still selling.
3001, 1805, and 3301 all closed in September
Some closed at losses for the original owners but at least they are selling!
I’ll let G update you. I find copying and pasting into this box rather tedious
1805/p821 CLSD 9/1/2009 $625,000
1805/p821 CLSD 11/13/2007 $672,000
3001/p1115 CLSD 9/24/09 $865,000
3001/p1115 CLSD 2/12/2008 $950,500
3301/p410 CLSD 9/4/2009 $937,000 from developer
3201/p44 CLSD 2/25/2008 $1,037,000
3401/p97 CLSD 3/3/2008 $1,058,000
They now appear to be selling under pre-con prices. Take out the commission, transfer taxes and other costs (nevermind the loss to rental equivalent) and we are now seeing some large losses due to capitulation.
I count 19 closings here in 2009. BTW, the Sterling has had 28 closings this year!
Who could have guessed that increased sales volume would occur with reduced prices?
“I count 19 closings here in 2009”
CORRECTION: There have been 18 unit closings in 2009, just as David stated.
Thanks G!
Do we know if parking is included in prices? Looks like about an 8% drop from pre-con prices, if parking in consistent across all these prices.
“Do we know if parking is included in prices? Looks like about an 8% drop from pre-con prices, if parking in consistent across all these prices.”
Yes, they are included as indicated by the “p” next to the unit number.
Why would 3607 go for $640k and 1805 for $625k when they have the same floor plan? That’s a huge floor difference for only $15k more. Did 3607 include parking?
“Why would 3607 go for $640k and 1805 for $625k when they have the same floor plan?”
Looks to me that the 05s are 1253 SF and the 07s are only 1185. Also, the floorplans are very dissimilar–07 has a corner living room and split BR, while the 05 has the master in the corner and the BRs adjacent. Unless, of course, the floorplans on the 600 Fairbanks website are wrong.
From what I understand, the 05 has a better view on the lower floors (north west) whereas the 07 is north east but looks into the holiday inn until you get higher up.
Nope, you are incorrect Sabrina. The 02s face north east.
http://www.600nfairbanks.com/_floorplans/13to36.html
The 07s have a very nice view for now but are smaller than the 05s and 02s.
Thank you for the clarification David. Yes- I was thinking of the 02 units.
Suffice it to say- prices seem all over the place in this building right now.
2705 just closed for 540K including parking
Previous sale
Sold Price: $585,802
List Date: 11/03/2005
That is a higher floor with some good views in that building.
Good price for that amount of space with parking.
Are you sure that parking was included? Didn’t 1805 go for $625k with parking last fall? Wow, that owner must have been desperate!
If that price included parking, the owner took a bath. The $585k price it went for in 2005 was pre-construction pricing WITHOUT parking!
2005? That doesn’t make sense does it? They didn’t start marketing that early did they?
Yeah, pre-con started in the fall of ’05.
According to the MLS, parking was included
Attached Single MLS #: 07416980 List Price: $535,000
Status: CLSD List Date: 01/15/2010 Orig List Price: $559,000
Area: 8008 List Dt Rec: 01/15/2010 Sold Price: $540,000
SP Incl Parking: Yes
Address: 600 N FAIRBANKS Avenue Unit 2705, Chicago 60611
Icculus,
Where is your data from? The 2005 closing price included parking.
If an owner bought parking with a unit, the closing price included the price of the parking space.
I’ve worked with clients on both the buying and selling side in this building
My realtor said that $585 was likely the pre-con price of the unit. She worked on the building in 2005 and said that was about right for what a unit sans parking would have gone for. Perhaps she is incorrect?
It probably was pre-construction pricing Icculus. But that included the parking.
So we have purchased for $585k (closed on these in 2007-2008)
Sold in 2010 for $540k
Interesting, I wonder why 1805 went for so much more?!
timing and the finishes were different. All about the finishes
Unit 2705 also had renters in the unit for a couple of years.
Also- the market continues to drop- even if it’s just 6 months later.
I thought the Chicago Case-Shiller had turned up, didn’t it?