East Lakeview Greystone Sells Under the 2002 Price: 657 W. Roscoe
Just a month ago we chattered about this vintage East Lakeview greystone at 657 W. Roscoe that seemed to have it all except parking.
See our prior chatter and pictures here.
It went under contract shortly after our chatter and just closed for $25,000 under the 2002 purchase price.
The 3-bedroom home had a renovated kitchen, central air and an extra long, lush backyard.
Mario Greco at Prudential Rubloff had the listing.
657 W. Roscoe: 3 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, no square footage listed
- Sold in September 2000 for $565,000
- Sold in October 2002 for $925,000
- Was listed in September 2009 for $999,000
- Sold in October 2009 for $900,000
- Taxes of $11,297
- Central Air
- No parking
- Living room: 17×12
- Dining room: 16×11
- Family room: 16×12
- Bedroom #1: 15×13
- Bedroom #2: 12×9
- Bedroom #3: 11×9
- There is a basement-but it appears from the listing to be unfinished.
Mario definitely gets the coffee, he’s a closer.
Sounds like a real give-back in price until you consider that it sold for roughly 80% more in 2002 than it did in 2000.
Granted, it’s a beautiful house, but it’s hard to believe that the kitchen, that looks to have cost about $45K, could add $360K value to the house.
Whoever bought this place in 2000 was able to pick up, after deducting the probable cost of the kitchen (which is beautiful), about $315K simply for living there for two years, thanks to the flood of EZ money,especially after 2001.
Kudos to the seller for having sense enough to take $900K and run.
“the kitchen (which is beautiful)”
Ugh. Hate the kitchen with that black tile and weird useless seating island. Looks to be an electric range (yuck) and inaccessible cabinets. I almost feel sorry for whoever dropped $900K on this place. Almost.
I dig the tile (easy to clean, hides grease) look, and the island I can give or take. Looks like it adds very useful counter space for when laying out snacks or a buffet line.
I am all for an island and a backsplash. Just not cheap black tile and an IKEA table with a couple of chairs. Oh, a buffet? Right. Forgot about that.
“Looks to be an electric range”
Looks like a gas cooktop to me, but the pic is unclear.
“inaccessible cabinets”
Sure, but what would you have them do, leave an open space above them? To collect tchotchkes, grease and dust?
“it’s hard to believe that the kitchen, that looks to have cost about $45K, could add $360K value to the house.”
I suspect that they did somewhat more work than just the kitchen, as the whole house appears to have been at least superficially updated. Certainly not $360k worth of work, but more than $50k.
“weird useless seating island”
Pretty sure it’s just a table. Might not even come with the house.
Perhaps buffet was the wrong term choice. Occasionally I find it’s easier to have people serve themselves then walk to the table than plate everything and walk out. That’s what I meant by buffet, and from the kitchen photo I didn’t see a lot of counter space to pull that off.
I actually like the high level cabinets. No big deal to reach w/ a step ladder (I have one going at my place) and a good place to stuff random kitchen implements that I probably didn’t need in the first place. I’m looking at you, garlic roaster or those silly slicer things that you smash down on.
I really hate wall-mounted televisions unless they are recessed inside the wall.
By necessity, the mounting bracket keeps the TV a few inches from the wall, and of course extra room is needed to angle is down a few degrees since they mounted it so high.
This stuff is fine in a bar but a vintage home? This doesn’t even begin to address why there’s a TV in that room to begin with.
For the record, the sellers added a powder room to the main level, completely gutted & expanded the kitchen, installed new hardwood floors on the 2nd floor, added a master bath (there was only one bath upstairs when they bought), installed new 200AMP service and ran new wire to all outlets & installed the brick patio in the yard.
“I really hate wall-mounted televisions unless they are recessed inside the wall.”
Just a reminder: if you buy it, you will change the tvs, paint color, drapes, rugs, and furniture. So it doesn’t really matter how the seller has decorated it (except to speed, or not, the sale.)
“For the record, the sellers [did a lot of work]”
Your sellers, or the prior (2002) sellers?
you know, it’s a beautiful home, and I’m just glad whenever someone updates/rehabs one of these classic and irreplaceable buildings, and that someone bought it who will be living in it.
it’s so sad to see greystones on the west side that have been neglected to the point that they are teardowns, or to see speculators get zoning bumps that were making it profitable (yes, even in east LV) to tear these down and replace them with 3 or 4 unit “luxury” McCrackerBox Condos.
The comments on the reno show what a matter of personal taste it is and how you are doing your rehab mostly for yourself.
Used to be that you could hope to get your money back was the most basic and essential upgrades, like redoing a kitchen that dated to 1910, or building out the attic into living space. An additional full bath adds value, too. But replacing outdated plumbing and wiring is merely essential maintenance, and you do that just to keep your place livable and safe. It shouldn’t be considered an “improvement”.
I believe that kitchen is beautiful, but many people here do not and would want to replace it immediately, which shows you that spending money on highly personalized improvements don’t necessarily add to the value of your place and might detract.
And even I would replace that gas cooktop with a glass induction cooktop, which in my view is much safer, cleaner, and ecological. I know my taste is “fringe” and when I renovate I will not expect a subsequent buyer to pay me for my glossy state-of-the-art kitchen that half the prospective buyers hate.
MG,
“For the record, the sellers added a powder room to the main level, completely gutted & expanded the kitchen, installed new hardwood floors on the 2nd floor, added a master bath (there was only one bath upstairs when they bought), installed new 200AMP service and ran new wire to all outlets & installed the brick patio in the yard”
thats a scary thing to by in 2002, do some major improvements and then sell for lower than what you paid.
Is this where the market is heading? or was the 2002 sale price to high?
The 2002 buyer paid $360K more than the the buyer just 2 years before them. If I’m picking up what MG is laying down, they also “added a powder room to the main level, completely gutted & expanded the kitchen, installed new hardwood floors on the 2nd floor, added a master bath (there was only one bath upstairs when they bought), installed new 200AMP service and ran new wire to all outlets & installed the brick patio in the yard.”
Who pays $360K more than the previous seller (2yrs) with that many projects to do. These people. Which is why they took a bath.
Jon,
Maybe i am stupid (here it comes) but from reading the previous post and post above it seems like MG stated the the 2009 seller did the major upgrades.
and after writning this i realized i read your post wrong. i am stupid 🙁
Looks to me like the 2002 price was much too high, IF these improvements were all done after 2002.
There is, I repeat, an 80% increase in price from 2000 to 2002. What changed? After all, the improvements were not done till AFTER 2002.
Think about it: the previous seller made a profit equal to two years income for an extremely well-paid person just by LIVING in the place, and it was the same allover the city and the country, and in every price bracket.
I looked at numerous one beds in Rogers Park, a different neighborhood and different price bracket, and the pattern is exactly the same from 1999 forward. A 1 bed that sold for $65000 in 2000 was sold for $127K in 2002, $145K in 2004, and topped at $169K in 2007. Now you see places just like it on the market and they’re begging for $124.
You can see similar examples in every neighborhood, in every city in the country, in every price bracket, and all it tells you is that we went INSANE on the borrowing and lending, for which we are paying at least $3 Trillion in taxpayers money now.
I agree that’s a pretty big bump for 2 years, but you have to also remember that interest rates were dropping like a brick at that time.
We started looking for a home in early 2002, and it wasn’t out of greed we ended up looking at homes priced higher than we initially expected, it was that, literally, every month the same monthly nut we could comfortably cover put us (as we had plenty for the down payment) in a higher bracket.
This was of course countered to a good degree by how quickly the prices were rising, but it does explain/jive with my experience on the demand side.
“Think about it: the previous seller made a profit equal to two years income for an extremely well-paid person just by LIVING in the place, and it was the same allover the city and the country, and in every price bracket.”
And to be clear, I absolutely, 100% agree with this – when just living somewhere is allegedly more productive than going to work, the system has gone haywire.
The negative comments on this site never cease to amaze me. This is a solid greystone on a nice street in a nice part of town. The price seems fair. Why all the hate?
The hate stems from the fact that it still costs $900,000; prices are too sticky on the way down and moreover, the fact that it retained most of it’s bubble price is frustrating.
It may be more frustrating to the new owner if they need to sell in the next few years!
WTF,
“The negative comments on this site never cease to amaze me. This is a solid greystone on a nice street in a nice part of town”
i think the bashing stems from the tight layout, and the vintage outside that doesnt flow to the interior.
I don’t get it. This is a city of 3-4 million people. Many of those people make a lot of money. What is so crazy about a nice greystone, in a nice neighborhood, in a nice city, where there are many, many people making a lot of money costing $900k?
Go to any other city in the world where you can make the kind of money you can make in Chicago and see how much a place like this would cost. I still think that Chicago, considering the income you can make, is a very affordable big city.
I think a lot of the comments on this board suffer from this myopia: “If I can’t afford it then it’s too expensive.”
Well, in this city there a lot of doctors, lawyers, bankers, traders, independent business owners, etc., etc., that make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I.e., someone above suggested that $360k is what a “very well paid person” makes in two years. In truth, there are many people in this city that make that much or more in a year. More than you think, even now, after a recession. In Manhattan they would make similar money but they would live in an apartment. In Chicago they can buy a greystone like this.
I think you guys need to keep this stuff in perspective. I’m not saying this place is cheap, but it doesn’t seem crazy to me.
“homedelete on October 20th, 2009 at 9:10 am
The hate stems from the fact that it still costs $900,000; prices are too sticky on the way down and moreover, the fact that it retained most of it’s bubble price is frustrating.”
2002 is not in the bubble imo
My sellers did the work I listed above
“2002 is not in the bubble imo”
Then, when is the bubble? I have no strong opinion (think it’s squishy and varies by sub-market) and interested in yours.
There are about twice as many luxury homes on the market as there are buyers for them in 60613, 60657, 60614, and 60610.
Yes, there are a “lot” of people in this city who make high incomes, but how many in relation to the number of houses in this price bracket.
One thing I’ll say for this house, it has much more charm, beauty, and character than most newer homes listed for much higher prices. It also has more amenity and space. This really is a lovely house and deserves a high price much more than other “mansions” I’ve seen listed at higher prices.
But, as someone here remarked, these prices increases were driven strictly by the E-Z money of the early 2000s, which was not only the steeply lowered interest rates but really louche lending standards. If lending practices had been prudent and ethical, and if the Fed were’t totally committed to driving the economy by means of asset inflation and debt creation and thus pushing interest rates down to super-low levels, we would not have had the kind of house appreciation we saw during the mania.
There was no FUNDAMENTAL reason for the speculative rampage of the 2000s and the manic price appreciation that resulted- this was all a creation of the Fed and our policy makers and we are paying through the nose for it now and will be for another decade at least. Prices increases like these are the reason we’ve had to spend about $3 trillion on bailing out lenders since.
2002 was clearly a “bubbling” year for east Lake View. Lake View started seeing speculation long before that of course, but the interest rates dropping (as the Fed tried to minimize the dotcom crash by keeping the housing segment of the economy humming) were a HUGE factor.
I think LV had already popped in an unsustainable way by the late 90s in the eastern part, do the math, and see what happens to your home purchasing dollar when rates go from almost 7% (what we were assuming when we started looking in Jan 2002) to 5.6% (what we ended up with in July 2002) for a 30-year.
Saying “easy money” was the only reason Chicago house prices went up is just too simple. A lot of other things were happening:
1. Incomes at the upper bracket went up dramatically. A lot of people could suddenly afford more, easy money or not. Example I know personally: 1st year associate at law firm made $90k in 1998, made $125k in 2002, makes $160k now (all base, without bonus).
2. Housing prices in the high demand areas of Chicago started to come into line with housing prices in the high demand areas of other metropolitan areas where you can make similar income. Compared to lawyer data cited above, the only other cities where first year associates made those salaries: NY, San Francisco, Boston, DC. Housing in upper bracket areas of Chicago has always been cheaper than those places (except maybe DC???) and it still is. I know lawyers aren’t the market, but they are a good proxy for the economics of what drove the price increases at this bracket.
I think close to the lake / close to the loop housing in Chicago will always be expensive. What I personally don’t get is why people pay millions to live in a 6,000 sqft mcmansion in bucktown, lincoln square, etc. I think it’s an oddity of the Chicago market: a lot of people who kind of want to live in the city and kind of want to move to the suburbs, so they buy a really big house in a non-prime spot. I don’t get it, and my guess is that we will continue to see big drops on those places. But I’m also hopeful it it will be a positive thing for this city. Maybe those people will be forced to stay in their homes and raise their kids in the city. When rich white kids start going to CPS, then I think we’ll finally see some improvement.
adding to J’s somewhat anecdotal take is the reality that Chicago real estate benefited (price-wise) mightily from the crappy job markets in other big Midwestern cities.
I tell this to everyone, and it’s still true – where do you think people with degrees from the best Midwestern/Big Ten schools in high-paying fields go to work? St. Louis? Indy? Detroit, etc?
No, they come here. This is something Daley has been crafting for years and years, and has as much to do with how he raises campaign funds (and how changing political rules have kneecapped the old Machine’s modus operandi) as anything inherently great about Chicago – just look to see how Chicago lured Fortune 500 company headquarters here using TIF funds. It all starts to add up…
“My sellers did the work I listed above”
Thanks for clarifying, MG.
Skeptic, you are exactly right.
And to put it into the framework I was using . . . When I came out of law school I could go to Chicago and start at $125k. Or I could go to the following midwestern cities for the following starting salaries (from memory so maybe off by a few $k):
1. Cleveland / Columbus / Cinci: $90-105k
2. Detroit: $90k
3. Minneapolis: $100-110k
Beyond starting salaries, there is huge compression. For example, a fifth year associate in Chicago can make $250k with bonus. A fifth year in any of those other cities would be lucky to make $150k with bonus. You work more, but there is an enormous income difference when you come to Chicago. Much bigger than the difference in housing cost.
To put further in perspective: Chicago legal salaries have pretty much held steady during this downturn. A few firms have cut starting salaries from $160k to $145k . . . But that’s still $20k a year MORE than salaries during the heart of the bubble.
Again, I know lawyers aren’t the market, but I think they are a good proxy. There are a lot of fields that have experienced this kind of growth in Chicago. That caused the “bubble” as much as “easy money,” and until that goes away you aren’t going to see the drop in prime real estate you all seem to be expecting.
“You work more, but there is an enormous income difference when you come to Chicago. Much bigger than the difference in housing cost.”
Yup. While again I do think the bubble was doomed to break, the fact is that the difference between $800K and $900K, spread out over a 30 year mortgage, isn’t necessarily a deal-breaker for highly paid lawyers, brokers, etc. And buildings like greystones will always command a premium for certain people, just because they like them, regardless of their utilitarian value or proof of resale value, etc.
“and until that goes away you aren’t going to see the drop in prime real estate you all seem to be expecting.”
We already are. Just not the lower end due to government intervention and support. The government is hoping for a “trickle up” effect due to throwing hundreds of billions of dollars at the low end.
Instead I am betting instead we get a tale of two markets scenario where there are two distinct markets: the government subsidized one where you still overpay and get almost nothing for your money (and its certainly more than renting), then the higher end where the government does not play where you are going to find some really good deals provided you have the downpayment and credit worthiness to get financing. Cutoff point around 500k.
In other words you’re going to be able to get much more than 50% more house at the 600k pricepoint over a house at the 400k pricepoint is my theory.
Your argument inappropriately dismisses the fact that there are far more units for sale at lawyer prices than there are lawyers. You’re trying to say that the high end pricing accurately reflects the market – but a large number of high end properties languishing in the upper tiers of the MLS begs to differ….
“and until that goes away you aren’t going to see the drop in prime real estate you all seem to be expecting.”
I know probably 10 lawyers and only one of them probably makes 150k+/year. HD is right in that their argument that everyone makes BigLaw salaries is flawed. They are the exception not the rule.
“I know probably 10 lawyers and only one of them probably makes 150k+/year.”
Speaking of Stevo, where’s he been?
“where do you think people with degrees from the best Midwestern/Big Ten schools in high-paying fields go to work? St. Louis? Indy? Detroit, etc?”
New York.
“I think it’s an oddity of the Chicago market: a lot of people who kind of want to live in the city and kind of want to move to the suburbs, so they buy a really big house in a non-prime spot. I don’t get it, and my guess is that we will continue to see big drops on those places.”
I fit this description and I’ll explain why. Although I’m going to be targeting 500k properties in a few years. Proximity to downtown and being able to walk places. Even in non prime hoods you can still walk to a bunch of places. Thats not true for suburban living overall. Also if near public transit its a lot less stressful and less expensive than driving and paying to park downtown.
hey J, i’m a biglaw lawyer too, but the thing is, i didn’t get to where i am by making dumb decisions. it doesn’t matter what you subjectively think a place ought to be worth, the market is the arbiter of that. and from what i’ve seen, the market doesn’t think that even the nice 3/2s (without parking) in boystown are worth $900k unless the master bedroom includes a suitcase stuffed with $350k cash.
you might also be wise to drop the subtle racism. this ain’t your dad’s profession anymore.
“I fit this description and I’ll explain why. Although I’m going to be targeting 500k properties in a few years. Proximity to downtown and being able to walk places. Even in non prime hoods you can still walk to a bunch of places. Thats not true for suburban living overall. Also if near public transit its a lot less stressful and less expensive than driving and paying to park downtown.”
depends on the hood, Bob. If we’re talking south loop i agree (but that’s a real estate minefield right now), if we’re talking lincoln square that’s not close to downtown in my mind. you’re a good 40 minute el ride into the loop at that point, is that really much better than the 20-25 minutes on the metra?
sure, you can walk to the neighborhood watering hole but for me the situation would be a PITA. i’m a bit of a commute snob, however, so to each their own.
“Even in non prime hoods you can still walk to a bunch of places. Thats not true for suburban living overall”
good point bob, even in my non-prime hood, other than raining or freezing days, we walk to the grocery store, walk to lunch, walking distance to three parks, its nice! but we still have to pay for parking downtown 🙁
the burbs you have to drive everywhere! as i still have access to the dreaded CTA Bus
People on here think everyone is making $35k a year and if god forbid they make anywhere near or more than $100k they are an oddity. I look at salaries all day long from lawyers, doctors, bankers, middle management, traders, teachers, etc. People make a good deal more coin in metro Chicago than people seem to believe. We have a ton of industries here along with all the typical service sector jobs.
There are all kinds of Joe Middle Managers making $80-$120k or so per year. It isn’t just biglaw attorneys, consultants and bankers.
Chicago isn’t cheap, but it is one of the best values in the country for salaries and cost of living. About the only major city I can think of that offers a lower cost of living is Atlanta and I wouldn’t put Atlanta on par with Chicago
“About the only major city I can think of that offers a lower cost of living is Atlanta and I wouldn’t put Atlanta on par with Chicago”
Dallas, Houston, (godforbid) Detroit. I guess its a question of how small you draw the circle of “major”–but if the ATL counts, those three certainly do, too.
whats wrong with making 35K/yr?
“There are all kinds of Joe Middle Managers making $80-$120k or so per year. It isn’t just biglaw attorneys, consultants and bankers.”
And these Joe Middle Managers are just going to drop 500k on a place and be able to easily afford it? 500k on a place the previous owner likely purchased in the 1990s for less than half that amount?
Then these Joe Middle Managers better have a wife that also works and be willing to make all kinds of lifestyle sacrifices that the previous owner didn’t have to, all to fund the previous owner’s nest egg.
“it doesn’t matter what you subjectively think a place ought to be worth, the market is the arbiter of that.”
Unfortunately with the heavy government intervention, its a bit more muddled than that. Theres no such thing as a true market for real estate currently in the below 525k segment (730k in high cost areas) because the government is trying to put a floor on asset price declines here using any means necessary.
Let’s not forget the relative value of the dollar. For example from an internet calculator:
Current data is only available till 2008. In 2008, $98,000.00 from 1998 is worth:
$129,445.98 using the Consumer Price Index
$124,327.09 using the GDP deflator
$140,650.06 using the value of consumer bundle
$132,217.65 using the unskilled wage
$145,946.90 using the nominal GDP per capita
$160,943.56 using the relative share of GDP
So its not like wages completely went up…
—
With respect to lawyer salaries, I know a decent number…and here is a link to Biglaw salaries vs. smaller firms.
http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2007/10/pay-differentia.html
1. Bob and homedelete, I think you missed half of my point. Probably because I wasn’t very clear. Every market has two sides: buyer and seller. I agree there aren’t a lot of buyers out there right now. I disagree that it’s because there aren’t a lot of people who can’t afford to buy. It’s more a function of what jr aludes to — people who can afford to buy aren’t buying because they are uncertain of the real market value. It’s not about easy money drying up, it’s about uncertainty. But that’s beside the point. The key is the sell side. There are enough people living in those high end homes that can still afford those high end homes that those high end homes will not go into fire sales. There will be some one-offs, but that segmet of the market will not go into a downward spiral until the jobs/income differential that I referred to earlier leaves Chicago.
2. Jr. — I have no idea what you refer to by calling my comments “subtly racist.” The only thing I said that referred to race at all was that if rich white kids start going to CPS, then CPS might improve. That’s not racist comment, that’s basic public policy. In fact, it’s a comment directed at 50 years of public policy that many people would say is racist. For the last 50 years or so Chicago has been a place where rich white people do not send their kids to public school. As such, they are content to let Daley spend their tax dollars on tulips and Christmas lights. If those same people find themselves in a situation where they have to send their kids to CPS, then it is likely they will start demanding that money be put into things that matter — like good public schools. Maybe I should have said “rich kids” instead of “rich white kids,” because, as you suggest, there are also non-white rich people that flee the city for better schools. But that’s all I meant.
“you might also be wise to drop the subtle racism. this ain’t your dad’s profession anymore.”
Jr, I’ve looked at J’s posts, and I’m not seeing the racism, subtle or otherwise. Do you have a particular statement in mind?
– Doubting-My-Own-Reading-Comp-Skills (and biglaw attorney)
“Unfortunately with the heavy government intervention, its a bit more muddled than that. Theres no such thing as a true market for real estate currently in the below 525k segment (730k in high cost areas) because the government is trying to put a floor on asset price declines here using any means necessary.”
oh i agree with that and it’s not just real estate either. but even with the easy money, this is still nutso pricing, especially as you pointed out because the money isn’t so easy at this price point. but like post #1 said, that’s why mario gets the coffee. i don’t know how he gets people to fall for it, but they do.
Russ,
your example is from your clientele which is, from what you have written here, a higher bracket than what is the norm. not saying there are high paid individuals out there but i think you experience is skewing the reality curve.
“For one I wouldn’t want to live there.”
Don’t you live about a 5 minute walk from here?
I hope this is a joke.
Groove77,
I agree!
Russ,
That’s called sampling error.
“People on here think everyone is making $35k a year and if god forbid they make anywhere near or more than $100k they are an oddity. I look at salaries all day long from lawyers, doctors, bankers, middle management, traders, teachers, etc. People make a good deal more coin in metro Chicago than people seem to believe. We have a ton of industries here along with all the typical service sector jobs.”
“Don’t you live about a 5 minute walk from here?”
Yeah but once you go N from where I live it gets a lot worse..or maybe more diverse is the PC term.
Russ, I know that you know about all the crazy loans out there made to middle managers making $80k-$120k a year; I know you know damn well how over leveraged they became during 2002-2007; how many IO ARMS for $600k did you witness to middle managers making $125k a year? Not every middle manager was asking for a 30 year fixed…
Not only is financing much more difficult to get in this price range, but people making high incomes ($250K or more) are now becoming markedly more frugal in this economy, given the difficulty of replacing high-salary jobs. There are far fewer of those in most cities than 5 years ago, in fewer fields, in fewer cities.
The market decided that this house was worth $900K, and given the difficulty in selling expensive properties in this climate,I think the seller did well and was glad to get it.
yeah a ‘coded’ pc term
PC Police(R)
On Patrol since 1492(TM)
”
Bob
Yeah but once you go N from where I live it gets a lot worse..or maybe more diverse is the PC term.
“
They need not even be IO ARMs or even ARMs. I bet Russ underwrote his fair share of 30yr fixed to these middle managers and many of these loans (if not most) were over 3+x their income.
Sure rates are LOW! Buy now or be priced out forever!
Then these middle managers buy, but don’t realize unless they stay there for the duration of their mortgage there could be trouble ahead. Kids come along and they can’t afford the schooling and want to move to the burbs.
Russ tell us by your estimation what percent of loans to these middle managers were in excess of 3x their family household income? And what percent had at least 20% down?
I’m guessing the answer to the first question is going to be quite high and the answer to the second quite low.
Why would a BigLaw lawyer live here anyway?
You’re busting your hump to bill 2300 hours to get the big bonus and you want 2 hours a day of commuting time (walk to Belmont, wait for train, train to Loop, walk to office)? The ones that can accept this live in the burbs and take Metra for the more reliable train schedules and the room to open up the laptop and do some billable work.
The wife and I rent a 10-minute walk from our offices for a reason. We value our time away from work.
Jon,
Please take your “diversity” elsewhere. And don’t forget to return the flag to Rainbow Brite when you’re done with it.
annony,
J clarified his statement, which is what i was getting at:
“Maybe I should have said “rich kids” instead of “rich white kids,” because, as you suggest, there are also non-white rich people that flee the city for better schools. But that’s all I meant.”
“You’re busting your hump to bill 2300 hours to get the big bonus and you want 2 hours a day of commuting time (walk to Belmont, wait for train, train to Loop, walk to office)?”
Not right now, of course, but ’til 18 months ago it would have been “cab home on client/firm” for half the commute. And a *ton* of bigfirm lawyers–who live in the city–drive most days (I’ve known a few who lived in the gold coast and drove).
I agree with anon, people with the coin often drive downtown, it’s much quicker than many realize if you are on the outer edges of a 9 – 5 workday, the parking is really the issue, but some companies subsidize that, or least have the facility available.
Hell, I live way out in the boonies in Avondale and I’m in the Loop in 10-15 minutes on most days as I can jump on the express lanes at Kimball (they claim Addison, but in rushhour you’ve got plenty of time to get over).
“The hate stems from the fact that it still costs $900,000; prices are too sticky on the way down and moreover, the fact that it retained most of it’s bubble price is frustrating.”
I don’t think it’s fair to say that the closing price relfects prices being too sticky. According to MG, the sellers put in a lot of work – at least $100K in my uninformed opinion. If that’s the case, the $925 they paid was at least $1.025MM in 2002 dollars, if not more. That equates to a 10% price decline since 2002, and that doesn’t take into account what this would have sold for at the peak. Seems like a reasonably fair price to me.
…and don’t forget that a lot of people simply don’t want to do rehab work themselves. they are paranoid about dealing with contractors, getting burned, damage to the house, etc.
Parking and BigLaw.
FWIW I knew/know of lawyers that drive. They’ll pay on their own or subsidized price of 250 – 500 a month to be able to drive and have that flexibility and given the hours that they put in traffic along LSD and other arteries aren’t that bad. 30 min door to door often.
my dad was a lawyer in the Loop for 25 years. he drove every day once he could afford it due to the flexibility, and he sincerely loved taking crazy routes like Kingsbury to the old Ogden bridge and so on.
Jon, you’re new here. Don’t go away, just ignore Bob when he’s wearing his white hood and ranting.
oh, forgot to mention this was from Lincoln and Diversey – there are zillions of people driving into the Loop every morning from Lake View, it’s pricey, but usually much quicker than the CTA unless you don’t have any kind of a walk to get to the station/your workplace.
concerning law people, the ones i know drive. the funny thing is that they made a point to buy a house along the metra?
1. I work biglaw and I ride my bike to work everyday. But it’s true what anon(tfo) says . . . I have very few coworkers that do public transport. I don’t get it, but most drive or cab every day.
2. Bob, seriously, tone it down.
“I live way out in the boonies in Avondale”
You must be torn b/t living in the city and living in the suburbs. Like everyone who lives in Brooklyn–to compare to another city.
“Russ tell us by your estimation what percent of loans to these middle managers were in excess of 3x their family household income? And what percent had at least 20% down?
I’m guessing the answer to the first question is going to be quite high and the answer to the second quite low.”
I’m real curious about the down payment question, especially Russ’ personal experience with this.
“I think close to the lake / close to the loop housing in Chicago will always be expensive. ”
I hear this a lot, and while I agree that such housing is most likely to hold its value, it wasnt too long ago that it was pretty cheap. vacant lots in old town going for under 50k etc (read sam zell bought one for 10k). Not to mention all those mansions on south mich ave, or prairie that were the biggest homes in the city and basically abandoned until the early 90s. They were near the lake, and the loop and it didnt matter.
“I live way out in the boonies in Avondale”
doooode thats no the boonies, given some think western ave is too far. I am farther than you, but i don’t commute downtown.
Thanks for the support Kenworthy and J – I apologize for getting the conversation off-track but when someone comments that they wouldn’t want to live amongst certain people, I do take offense. Along with carrying the Rainbow Brite flag (whatever the hell that even means), I DON’T live in the area Bob talks about, DO have a partner with dependents, practice law, drive to work, live in a place accessible to the Metra (Groove – it’s nice to have it as an option). Given rising CTA fares, monthly parking (especially if you can get it pre-tax dollars from your employer) works out to be pretty reasonable — in and out privileges, parking downtown on the weekends…
“2. Bob, seriously, tone it down.”
Ohoh. Now you’ve done it. Bob angry. Bob smash.
And quarter beers are cancelled for Tim McGraw (yeah, seriously); so Bob was already having a bad day.
Jon i support you too, i dont support where you live 🙂 but i am on your side if ya need back up. like kenworthy said stay around you have good opinions to offer!
“but when someone comments that they wouldn’t want to live amongst certain people, I do take offense. ”
Then you’re a bigger idiot than I thought. You take offense to one of the most fundamental tenets of nature which is replicated in various contexts naturally: people wanting to live among their own kind.
It happens in school cafeterias, it happens in incarceration, and it even happens with living patterns. All the political correctness in the world and idealism can’t change this basic instinct.
Theres a reason properties in Washington Park are 90% cheaper than a comparable properties in Lincoln Park, Jon. It has to do with the market with money doesn’t “want to love amongst certain people”.
And you are a toolbox extraordinaire!
Groove/312:
It also works the other way. I think a lot of people believe that since they aren’t making coin, they believe everyone else who is doing well is an oddity.
I know my sample is biased, but I actually have been more surprised by how much people in non-sexy industries and mid sized companies most folks have never heard of make which is my point.
Heck, I was surprised when i found out insurance guy was making $250k. Or the hairdresser pulling down $175k. Or the finance manager at at car dealership making $115k. T-shirt shop owner making $150k. Even more surprised by how little some Doctors make relative to other careers.
Bob:
For my client base, I would say the vast majority have debt ratios below average meaning less than 36% of gross monthly income. Typical down payment I have seen this year for a young professional (late 20s, early 30s) buying a place between $300 – $450 has been 10%, but 20% is not uncommon. During the run up of the bubble, I would say plenty did 80/20 loans because the money was so cheap. However, quite a few have paid off the 20% portion.
What I am seeing is that people are reluctant to go beyond the conforming loan limits even if they can afford it. Where my typical just outta b-school/law school DINK couple would have dropped $600k with 10% down are now buying a place around $400-$500 with 20% down.
“And quarter beers are cancelled for Tim McGraw (yeah, seriously); so Bob was already having a bad day.”
Well thanks for the tip. Bob now sad indeed :~( but at least you saved me and friends the trip. I swear if there ever was a person approaching omniscience its you.
“I swear if there ever was a person approaching omniscience its you.”
Thx, but I had to look it up. Needed to confirm Tuesday was the right night and then the joke made itself.
Russ,
“It also works the other way. I think a lot of people believe that since they aren’t making coin, they believe everyone else who is doing well is an oddity”
very true and you do see that on this website bitter haters that think that way.
i have done payroll for two different companies and one company our company acquired. as of late i have sifted through many resumes/applications with salary history to fill a open finance position here. I for one am amazed how little people make. and it makes me grateful for my paycheck 🙂
so i guess your view is top of the curve and mine is bottom. so both of us should be thrown out.
“I swear if there ever was a person approaching omniscience its you.”
dude anon is not human he is what the world wide web is made of.
You know we have a quality discussion going here when people are ending their positions with phrases like “toolbox extraordinaire.”
But, CH, good point. Prosperity comes and goes, even in the “best” locations. Fortunately, I think Chicago is now positioned to outlast this current downturn. But who knows?
“dude anon is not human he is what the world wide web is made of.”
Word.
Groove77,
I too used to work in accounting/finance. While starting salaries out of the gate are indeed good (lets assume 50k on average), overall the pay does not ramp up much. My pa was an accountant/finance mgr his whole career and retired right around six figures. Was making that for maybe the last 5-10 years of his career but never even came close to 200k. A really good year would’ve been 130k, most probably 110k.
What you’ll find in corporate america aside from the business owner, C level execs or salespeople its rare for one to get much beyond 130k even in good times as the skillset is so expendable. Finance execs are a dime a dozen, don’t really need to know the business inside and out (below CFO) and there is an ample pool of talent ready to replace them.
I suspect this is because finance/acctg is more associated with the cost and not revenue line. Yeah its probably the best route to CEO (or general manager in a big co.) one day but the pyramid is pretty steep.
And during layoffs it can really stink as if you’re a senior analyst earning 95k and there is a jr analyst with a couple years experience in your group earning 60k it is you who has the big crosshair on your back.
anon is fast google, but you still have to know what to look for. I had no idea tim mcgraw was at joe’s, maybe thats my fault but yesterday he dropped info on the bullying problem at a kenilworth grade school. wtf anon, you’re like rainman. did you go to cal tech or mit and did you graduate in your teens or pre?
“I would say plenty did 80/20 loans because the money was so cheap. However, quite a few have paid off the 20% portion.”
Russ, I haven’t noticed that happening much, unless they aren’t filing releases. Could you expand on how those 80/20 mortgages made any sense? Money was cheap, but alternate returns have been even cheaper. Was it just based on hope? What does it say about the borrower if they haven’t paid off that 20% yet?
I think the 80/20’s were the most damaging product in Chicagoland since they far outnumber the option-ARMs. The bulk of them were certainly not given to those who could actally come up with the 20% (or much of anything, for that matter.) Cheap money with no skin in the game was, obviously, a recipe for disaster.
Pic of anon at his computer:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Jo7lJoQhtjw/SOG7QnlTQaI/AAAAAAAACg0/G707hkZCPQI/s400/God+at+computer+with+Earth+WQ.JPG
bob,
“While starting salaries out of the gate are indeed good (lets assume 50k on average), overall the pay does not ramp up much”
what i am seeing from corporate accounts the first job out of school is ranging from 30k-40k doing basic stuff bacnk recs etc. more “seasoned” kids are getting the 45-50k range but what i have been looking at is dim. the public sector is a whole other animal i have a buddy who made partner at a small firm and that changed his whole tax bracket.
but in all what i see coming in for the opening has shocked me on how low companies are paying lately.
Jack, I can’t believe you’re picking a fight with someone who just used the phrase “toolbox extraordinaire.” Are you sure you can handle this? Bob has a way with the written word. I hope you are able to defend yourself against whatever zinger he throws out next.
“but in all what i see coming in for the opening has shocked me on how low companies are paying lately.”
Salaries are indeed lower than what I started at eight years ago, surely. I am seeing a lot of talented kids with no jobs willing to work in corp america for basically teacher salaries (or worse).
Precisely why I think our economy is in for long term stagnation at best, a depression at worst. No drivers to increase aggregate demand any time soon. A typical 22yr old grad with 40k student loan debt earning 33k/year isn’t going to doing a lot of consumer spending.
“J on October 20th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Jack, I can’t believe you’re picking a fight with someone who just used the phrase “toolbox extraordinaire.” Are you sure you can handle this? Bob has a way with the written word. I hope you are able to defend yourself against whatever zinger he throws out next.
”
;-D
I have an application from 2007 of a landscaper who allegedly made $140k a year..!!! No joke. Hahahaha
By application by I mean Uniform Residential Loan Application…
HD,
i made more working in construction than i do as a sr. cost accountant!
its very easy to believe a 140k per year landscaper
G:
I should be more specific in that I am referring to my clients. I probably had about 10 cases this year where the borrowers were refinancing and they brought fairly substantial sums of money to the closing to either completely payoff the second or substantially pay down a first mortgage to ensure they are getting the best rates available.
80/20s were fine. So were Option ARMs. So were interest-only loans. The problem was that banks got away from risk layering due to secondary market greed and expanded loan products to Joe Sixpack. That is what was damaging.
Option ARMs been around since the early 80s, but only given to rich folks with substantial equity. Initially, 80/20s were only given to very high credit score applicants with substantial reserves. Stated income used to be for self-employed with substantial equity and good credit. However, banks kept loosen the criteria in the pursuit of yield and loan volume which Wall Street was more than happy to pay for regardless of how idiotic the underwriting.
Yes, Russ, that is why this is a long way from over.
Those products won’t be returning in similar numbers for generations (if ever.)
That alone has crushed demand at anywhere near current pricing.
The correction is still a long way from over.
“Buy now or be priced out never.”
I know this is thread is pretty much done, but to clarify on a POV I think gets lost a LOT in Chicago housing talk:
““I live way out in the boonies in Avondale”
You must be torn b/t living in the city and living in the suburbs. Like everyone who lives in Brooklyn–to compare to another city.”
Dude, I am a Chicago lifer. Grew up in Lake View along the Lakewood axis full of meat packing plants, and there were tons of people who walked down the street to work, then walked down the street to the bar after work, then walked home, where the wives and kids were usually outside, as AC was rare and energy costs were high, and it was just how people socialized.
I could have afforded to buy in LV with my wife, but that wasn’t what I wanted – I wanted to live somewhere that more like a neighborhood and community and less like a waystation for 20-somethings looking to get laid and whoop it up before re-settling to the burbs. In Avondale I got a decent sized home (with an extra lot to boot) a few minutes walk from the train and 60 seconds from the expressways, and I can get to many “hot spots” in Chicago faster than people who live in those neighborhoods who are in the suburban habit of driving to them and fighting for parking and all that.
Avondale on its WORST day where I am (I’m a stone’s throw from the Blue line at Belmont, granted it gets considerably more funky in the isolated pockets around Milwaukee and Central Park) is nothing like LV was “back in the day” – there weren’t the guns and the (infrequent) drivebys, but there also weren’t wild hordes of kids running amok (yours truly included, in a non-violent way), and not much less wild adults drinking at all hours on their stoops. Things I hear people complaining about now just make me laugh, to be honest. My next door neighbor was taken away when he put a target on his front window one evening (1100 block of George), and settled in his favorite chair with a bottle of whiskey and a rifle. I have hundreds of similar tales, and there were hundreds of kids like me who I am sure don’t blink an eye at moving to the alleged “sketchy” neighborhoods on the North Side. Granted, I am better educated than most, but I keep in touch with tons of people from childhood, and we all laugh at the ridiculous expectations people have of a “safe” neighborhood in Chicago, they’re ridiculous as they simply don’t take into account the sheer volume of people in these communities.
So in a nutshell, there is no way I wanted to be in a suburb, but I did want some green space, and to not live where nice homes with yards and friendly, beckoning porches were being replaced by fortress-vibe gated-in condo buildings. We’ll find a good magnet or charter school, it really isn’t all that hard, or will go with one of the many private schools, they really aren’t all that expensive. Our sacrifice is having an old car long ago paid for, that we put maybe 6K miles a year on – unlike the goofs who shell out $300-400+ a month for a lease payment and insurance.
In a shorter nutshell: When it comes to dexterously navigating the urban jungle, I am king. And I am in it for the long haul. : )
“Dude, I am a Chicago lifer.”
I suspect you were just using my (jokey) response as a jumping off point, but, I get it. I agree with you. And I didn’t grow up in the city.
yeah, the coffee kicked in right about then. : )
I do think the school issue is demonized a bit unfairly – it is absolutely a maze to navigate, but, so is buying a home.
“I do think the school issue is demonized a bit unfairly”
Certainly at the elementary level, it is. High school is a different issue, but that’s one reason that Catholic HSs have been spared the closure rate of Catholic elementaries–they’re a reasonable alternative, taken by many. If a couple of neighborhood HSs actually turn around (I’m thinking Lakeview, Amundsen, or adjacent attendance areas) into being state-average (i.e., quite a bit better than the current # 3 or 4 non-selective in CPS) schools, it could change the equation a lot.
“I do think the school issue is demonized a bit unfairly”
skeptic,
after going through the CPS system k-12 i feel some people are to easily accepting of “below standards”
You’re a glass is half-full kind of guy, eh? This is pretty optimistic but we are years and years and years away from this. The only way this happens is if because of the housing crash, parents are unable to sell in the next 10-14 years and are forced to send their kids to CPS high schools.
“(I’m thinking Lakeview, Amundsen, or adjacent attendance areas)”
“You’re a glass is half-full kind of guy, eh? ”
Better than the opposite; cynicism can’t run my whole life–too depressing.
Regarding CPS – I have some insider info – budget cuts all over (transportation, meals, teachers, repairs etc).
🙁
“Regarding CPS – I have some insider info – budget cuts”
is it “good” insider info? that is a bad sign, still given i dont think money alone will solve the CPS problems but less money wont help at all.
WTF is daley and his emergency center/cta/CPS protege/lackey fricken thinking.
crap now i have to tell my wife this, dinner time will not be fun for groove tonight.
Is CPS Office of Management and Budget good enough?
“is it “good” insider info?”
“skeptic,
after going through the CPS system k-12 i feel some people are to easily accepting of “below standards””
oh, plenty of people are. I’m not advocating that the general CPS system is going to resemble New Trier any time this century, simply that motivated people always have options in a city this size.
btw, anyone see this?
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/Robeson.High.School.2.1251642.html
and people wonder why more drill-and-kill test standards aren’t turning around the CPS.
these girls need to be better empowered so they can tell the fellas “wrap that thing or get used to lonely nights watching porn.”
“Regarding CPS – I have some insider info – budget cuts all over (transportation, meals, teachers, repairs etc).”
Well, I didn’t think that would take any inside information. Budget cuts are coming to everything provided by state and local government in Illinois except: (1) union salaries and (2) graft.
“You’re a glass is half-full kind of guy, eh? ”
it’s more than that for me, I simply refuse to pack and leave.
my view is certainly shaped by growing up in a neighborhood that is almost unrecognizable from 20 years ago (much less 30), so I know anything is possible, and that the congruence of poor overall urban planning/sprawl in our area means the City’s infrastructure, neglected as it is, will continue to draw people into the City who will work to improve things.
skeptic,
glad you are here, you are keeping me positive, thank you!
and your positive attitude means a lot cause the hood your in now, being mine is in a worse state than yours, but the closest than the rest of the people on this site who grew up in the burbs and now live in wickerpark/LP/west loop.
312,
“Is CPS Office of Management and Budget good enough?”
ooooo look who is name dropping 🙂 no but for really though, that is good enough for me. just hoping it wasnt true.
skeptic,
“simply that motivated people always have options in a city this size” motivated people with out money have less options.
anon,
“except: (1) union salaries and (2) graft.”
you frincken beat me to the punchline
It takes two to tango; these girls want babies. They don’t expect the men to stay around. in fact, they don’t want them to stay around. In most cases, all they really hope is that the man gets a good job so they can get 20% of his net income before some other baby momma gets to him first. And I’m not kidding, I spent a good portion of my early legal career practicing child support and I’ve witnessed the debacle called the child support system firsthand.
“these girls need to be better empowered so they can tell the fellas “wrap that thing or get used to lonely nights watching porn.””
anon (tfo),
True, the same is going to happen in suburbian schools too. So may we shouldn’t be that worried. And I still think it’s up to parents to teach their kids values, education being one of them.
“So may we shouldn’t be that worried.”
That’s where I’m at. But, being honest, the HS thing does stress me out, notwithstanding my belief (and expectation) that our kids will do well enough in school and on tests that they’ll have options in CPS and private city schools.
Sadly HD is right. Skeptic you sound from your opinion on the issue of teen pregnancy that you just stepped out of some college class and are all for women’s empowerment. Unfortunately reality is quite far from the truth.
These girls lives have no value, or at least insofar as they perceive it. By entering motherhood it gives value and purpose to their life. If it happens to come with a free government handout too, might as well. Most of these girls have no misgivings that they aren’t going to be the next engineer/scientist/etc–they don’t see a lot of that from where they came and they want a purpose in their life now. And motherhood is the path of least resistance to this.
And 312 the only suburban schools this tends to happen in en masse in urban areas are ones with problem student problems to begin with. You’re not going to see one in seven girls at Arlington Heights preggos anytime soon. Maybe one out of 80.
Also remember life expectancy can be much shorter in areas like Englewood so it makes sense they pop them out at the first opportunity.
A lot of people in the “street trade” don’t really have the luxury of waiting until they’re established in their career as there’s a fairly high attrition rate, so to speak.
“that our kids will do well enough”
that the things ….CHEESY PART HERE…. i was playing with my son sunday before the bears game, i sat there for about 5 minutes just staring at him and then looked into his eyes and i just saw all the pontental in the world right there. at that moment i felt i need to do what ever i can to give him the best opportunities possible. i know its sappy but it hit me hard at that moment
i dont want to shortchange him or his future siblings by settling for well enough
This is not just confined to urban schools, teen pregnancy is also an issue in poor rural areas too. Think Brandine Spuckler (of Simpson’s fame) in a trailer park with her three kids from two baby daddies, one ran away and the other in prison.
Bob,
I was talking about budget cuts, not pregnancies in HS. Being pregnant while in HS is something so much out of my world; I don’t even know what to say!
anon (tfo),
Same here. Plus my son is only 3, I have other things to worry about besides HS he would go to. It might not even be in this country!
“i dont want to shortchange him or his future siblings by settling for well enough”
Then push him real hard to get into Walter Payton or Whitney Young and push him really hard to get straight A’s and a second HS Diploma (called IB).
Then sit back and hold your breath when he goes off to college because there’s a real good chance he’ll rebel and failout at that point due to being pushed so hard and resent you for missing out on part of his youth.
Bob, I’m almost 40, and taught briefly in CPS (pre-Vallas).
and I’ve heard the high school guys talk – it’s mostly on them.
While some teen girls indeed have such low self-esteem that a baby seems like a wise choice, that’s hardly the rule.
“motivated people with out money have less options”
So true.
But if your kid isn’t smart enough to test well & as a parent you aren’t willing to jump through the hoops to apply for magnets, etc., to the local industrial factory school you go. These schools are in no small way as hopeless as they are thanks to exactly those unmotivated parents, so, there’s a bit of poetic justice there, IMO.
When parents start demanding their kids spend as much time doing homework as they do vegged out in front of the TV, things may improve- but as it stands, it’s hard to blame the teachers when the kids simply won’t do homework anywhere near their Catholic school and suburban peers, you get out of school exactly what you put into it.
I explain it as trying to learn a musical instrument- while a good teacher helps considerably, a kid who won’t practice is never going to learn to how play. Of course, good teachers help motivate, and can make learning fun – something that is related to student-to-teacher ratios and all that.
I met tons of dedicated teachers, it’s the bureaucracy that blows. Get those class sizes down and you would see improvements immediately.
furthermore Bob, what exactly is your expertise as far as:
“Unfortunately reality is quite far from the truth”
I’m gonna guess talking with west side teens isn’t something you’ve got a lot of experience with.
“While some teen girls indeed have such low self-esteem that a baby seems like a wise choice, that’s hardly the rule. ”
When its one out of seven girls I’d bet it is indeed the rule. Not only is it socially acceptable but its a natural life progression for most of those girls that became pregnant. Chances are they are from a single parent household (mama, daddy done run off or is incarcerated) and chances are their mother is around 30 and their grandma around 45. Theres no shame in living like this and its common throughout the community.
And I’m not blaming the schools one iota: they really have nothing to do with it. Its not the physical building that makes one out of seven pregnant at that HS vs. far fewer in a suburban HS. Its cultural and demographic. Its also why I don’t feel bad for CPS getting their budgets cut: I’ve yet to see any study showing increased funding has a positive correlation with student success.
Every study I’ve seen, and even anecdotal observations support, that there is little correlation between the amounts of money thrown at schools and student achievement.
“something that is related to student-to-teacher ratios and all that”
dooooooode dont even get me started on that! i can go on for days about the student teacher ratio and how schools get around making it look better than what it real is. I am a CPS product of over crowding and slipping through the cracks thing. ahhhh i will stop here cause i will open the pandoras box in me and i need to finish some work up.
skeptic,
your my age so you probably went to lakeview HS, from where you grew up, i probably know you cause i hung around at the Mr. Subs there on the corner (now its a bedding place i think)
“Every study I’ve seen, and even anecdotal observations support, that there is little correlation between the amounts of money thrown at schools and student achievement.”
That is correct bob.
There however is a HUGE correlation to remaining poor and having a child before age 20.
“Every study I’ve seen, and even anecdotal observations support, that there is little correlation between the amounts of money thrown at schools and student achievement.”
Sure, but, generally speaking, the districts that spend more have better school achievement. CPS is about average on per-student spending in Illinois; the “good” suburban distrcits are generally at the top for per student spending. So, throwing money at a given district doesn’t necessarily improve results without doing more.
hey groove, actually I was just far south enough for LPHS, but as my parents told me it was either the IB or Iggy, I went Iggy as everyone in the hood said they might have to beat me up if I did IB. : )
Bob, you have some points, no doubt – but – cut New Trier’s per-student funding to CPS and see what happens. I agree throwing money isn’t useful, but when your schools literally can’t afford to do things like remove mold and turn on the AC when it’s 90 degrees outside, it does make it a bit challenging to learn.
as to the pregnancy thing, you can’t blame the schools for being put in the position of having to deal with these kids. they need support services that really should come out of a different budget, but CPS gets stuck footing the bill.
“the Mr. Subs there on the corner (now its a bedding place i think)”
Vacant. For over a year. There was a sign for an auction a few months ago; don’t know if it sold.
“Vacant. For over a year. There was a sign for an auction a few months ago”
i knew it, all signs point to you living in the ravenswood or lincoln/irvining area!
Skeptic,
“actually I was just far south enough for LPHS”
thats was one school i didnt hang around, cops were to harsh on graffiti punks there.
i bet we probably met at Medusas and dont even know it 🙂
Bob,
your racist remarks do hit on points most times, wish you would word them better, but the pregnancy thing is not a school issue. Morals, ethics, life, birds and bee’s, etc. are not for the school to teach. i have stated before its a cultural thing that is about three or four generations deep that need to be corrected.
“when your schools literally can’t afford to … turn on the AC when it’s 90 degrees outside”
Where are these fancy-pants, nancy-boy schools with AC? I’ve never gone to one (including college) that had it outside (maybe) the library and computer room(s).
I’m curious about this as well… wtf do schools need AC for? The one or so days a year its actually warm?
ha, you folks don’t know CPS do you? when the teachers were going on strike ever few years, the school year regularly went to the end of June. And in my LPHS classroom (special ed, frankly, a lot of gangbangers killing time) they had nailed the windows shut to keep kids from throwing stuff out of them. nice, eh?
and Groove, yeah, I hit Medusa’s periodically, but I spent more time just hanging out on Belmont Ave & the lakefront, letting the suburban girls in for the scene admire me & my crew for our “urban authenticity.”
“I hit Medusa’s periodically”
i was there every saturday, ah the stories of the things i did in the video room 🙂 i even dj’ed a few times at medusas when it moved to the congress theater.
Did you go to the china club, eric’s north, Day times at the Oak theater?
“suburban girls….. our “urban authenticity””
heheheeheee, i would pull that game too. I would take them to Alcatraz for the extreme ghetto effect 🙂
“Where are these fancy-pants, nancy-boy schools with AC? I’ve never gone to one (including college) that had it outside (maybe) the library and computer room(s).”
Same here and ditto for the dorms I stayed in the first two years. The second two years of undergrad I became somewhat of an engineer living in the frathouse starting one summer with no AC but they allowed window AC units but mine had none. I quickly jury rigged one up, getting the plexiglass sized (the school wouldn’t allow wood backplane and the window was large and custom), cut and all (its quite hard to cut correctly), and tethered the unit into the window and then glued the custom cut glass in.
I still look back and was amazed at my engineering feat, but its amazing what you can accomplish when its 90 and humid outside and inside and you really can’t sleep in that environment.
“ha, you folks don’t know CPS do you? … they had nailed the windows shut to keep kids from throwing stuff out of them. nice, eh?”
Wait, they nailed the windows shut *and* installed AC? The first part, sure, but installing AC? Does the mayor’s cousin have the contract or something?
you guys might want to take the .5 seconds to google something before making assumptions:
http://www.newtrierchoices.org/documents/InfoDoc.pdf
groove, I went to college right before medusa’s closed, so I got out of that circuit, I did go to places like Limelight once in a while, but growing up near Belmont & Clark nurtured me into becoming a punk rock fan (although the Clash then led me to more world music; dub and reggae and ska and so on.)
“you guys might want to take the .5 seconds to google something before making assumptions”
What, the (jokey, again) assumption that–outside the south–only fancy schools have AC? Citing NT doesn’t clash with that “assumption”.
anon – no, zero AC *and* they nailed the windows shut!
LOL – we’ve been using NT as the “money solves everything” foil, so I figured they were fair game (and did anyone really think they wouldn’t have AC?) : )
“Belmont & Clark nurtured me into becoming a punk rock fan”
oops should have made that connection you wearing a dead kennedys or misfits tshirt. i am a house music head forever(which lead me to Jazz, Blues, and some gospel)
i wonder if that punk club is still over on fullerton and clark, you had to go down an alley to get in?
“Same here and ditto for the dorms I stayed in the first two years.”
WORD!
People don’t know hot until they have to do “three-a-days” for pre-season Fall sports that start in early August…in dorms…with no AC. I remember my freshman year I actually put my chair in the cool shower and *slept* there just to get some semblance of sleep in a “cooler” environment. Worst experience of my athletic career. Besides, you know, blowing out my knee…and the three subsequent surgeries thereafter.
“no, zero AC *and* they nailed the windows shut!”
See? We do know CPS!
“i wonder if that punk club is still over on fullerton and clark, you had to go down an alley to get in?”
Neo’s 30 and going strong.
“Worst experience of my athletic career. Besides, you know, blowing out my knee…and the three subsequent surgeries thereafter.”
Soccer, right? Haver the women’s team at my school blew an acl before or during college. Sometimes both of ’em.
“Neo’s 30 and going strong.”
I lived right near there when I first moved to Chicago and one night while taking the 22 home, the only seat on the bus was next to this punked out, spiked up, scary mess of a guy. But hey, looks aside, I figured he was probably just eccentric and I was tired – so I sat down. He was a super nice guy, turns out, and we chatted all the way to his stop; he had earlier mentioned he was heading to Neo’s. As he got off the bus, he stopped turned and looked me straight in the face and said, “It was nice chatting with you. Make sure to worship Satan” and then hopped off the bus.
I didn’t know whether to laugh or be totally freaked out and to this day: I STILL don’t know if he was just effing with me or not.
So yeah, that’s my Neo’s story
😛
“Soccer, right? Haver the women’s team at my school blew an acl before or during college. Sometimes both of ‘em.”
Yup. I played from age 5-21 and yeah, pretty much about 70% of all the teammates I’ve ever every played with eventually blew an ACL. Some came back, some didn’t. Believe it or not, I remember that literally *right after* it happened (I was still face down in the turf) I thought, “well, I guess its my turn.” I suppose I was fortunate to not have to go through the injury/recovery until I made it college and had already enjoyed a long career. I mean, it’s not like I was going pro after that, you know? There wasn’t a whole lot else to play for. I tell you, this injury really does blow now though – running is pretty a no-go for me anymore.
Oh, I love the House music as well! blues, jazz, afro-cuban drumming, classical, if it’s passionate it’s good by me.
Neo, man, haven’t been there in years, but it was still hopping last I went in the late 90s.
and btw Iggy certainly had no AC, hell, when I went there after gym class they not only made you shower (a lovely circular thing) but then made you wait outside for the next class’s bell where your damned hair froze to your head.
every class that has gone there since the “Link” connecting the gym/cafeteria and the school building suffers from wuss-itis AFAIC.
“I didn’t know whether to laugh or be totally freaked out and to this day: I STILL don’t know if he was just effing with me or not.”
110% chance he was just messing with you.
Anon should i just throw away my bible and follow you? are the “matrix” in the matrix movie.
wait no you are the computer joshua from war games!
but you still havent answered Joey Z kenilworth question. because you cant computers are banned there and computers have no personal experiences do they?
I’m sure anon, I’m sure. You know, I still laugh thinking about it. He said it in such a nonchalant, bubbly manner too, like “hey, have a great day!” but instead it was like, “hey! make sure to worship Satan!” Think Mr. Rogers-esque voice with “devil lover” attire.
You guys know they have these AOL chat rooms where you can meet and talk to people, right?
“You guys know they have these AOL chat rooms where you can meet and talk to people, right?”
Nice to meet you pot. My name’s kettle.
You’re right HD, maybe we can find a simpson’s chat room and you can make all the simpsons analogies your little heart desires.
😉
“and *slept* there just to get some semblance of sleep in a “cooler” environment. ”
I would go and sleep in the dorm study room on the floor. It was an honors dorm and if anyone had a problem with me sleeping there they would have to deal with me.
No Bob wasn’t in honors but back then those dorms were the only ones with ethernet–gasp! And while not particularly tough Bob could take most, or all rather, of those honors kids…darn bunch of pacifist pre-med pre-laws.
Yeah I had broadband internet back in the mid to late 90s you can all feel free to be jealous now. I had a pager back then too.
Err ground floor (only room with A/C)
“Every study I’ve seen, and even anecdotal observations support, that there is little correlation between the amounts of money thrown at schools and student achievement.”
Bob: Have you been in a school like New Trier or Hinsdale Central and then driven directly to one of the Chicago Public High Schools like John Marshall?
When you do- THEN tell me that money has no correlation with achievement.
Also- you might want to read Jonathan Kozol’s excellent book “Savage Inequalities” about this very topic. It’s nearly 20 years old now but the arguments (and the schools, sadly) are the same.) When he wrote it, the New Trier district was spending something like $25,000 per pupil a year and the CPS was spending something like $8,000. They didn’t even have the proper textbooks in the CPS.
You’d better believe it makes a difference if you go to a school with holes in the ceiling and water leaking in versus one where there is a nice radio station to use in your spare time and an Olympic sized swimming pool.
Sabrina,
I went to a white (caucasian for our PC friends) HS in Northern Kentucky. Yes, just like the fried chicken, for our liberal friends I will give you a free “yeee haw”.
Yet we were mere miles (under 5 for sure) from Ohio, specifically Cincinnati. Cincinnati public schools, which had a much higher per capita student spending than our district have much higher incidences of student violence, teenage pregnancy, shootings, etc. and much lower rate of students successfully going on to a college and graduating.
Similar results have been reported in a midwestern study on this with regard to the Kansas City school district, if I am not mistaken, where many billions were spent.
“You’d better believe it makes a difference if you go to a school with holes in the ceiling and water leaking in versus one where there is a nice radio station to use in your spare time and an Olympic sized swimming pool.”
Does it? Sabrina there was no radio station in my highschool, nonetheless I was put in detention for sparring with asbestos laden pipes left lying about. Your argument falls flat on its face when compared with suburban school districts outside wealthy areas with nothing yet still they don’t need metal detectors and not getting pregnant and going to college is the norm.
What _data_ do you have? Not an author with a pre-determined agenda but what scientific data to prove so?
Because my argument is that _nature_ is a larger determinant than nurture and you are quoting authors with no scientific basis whatsoever.
Also the only city in northern Kentucky to display any of the violent shootings that we see here in Chicago, by far, is Covington, with a population of 5,000 AAs out of 40,000 residents. The only other city approaching the population density of this in the area is Newport, with 15,000 people (but a far lower percentage of AAs) and this city has almost no problems with shootings.
Also everyone at my HS had far less than 8k spent on them, yet most did well in life, and very few felons or on welfare. So sorry to poke holes in your theory.
But like Journey says “Don’t stop believin” and lets continue to the current status quo as we don’t want to seem un-PC at our wine parties in front of friends.
Whats a 11% sales tax among friends, right?
“When you do- THEN tell me that money has no correlation with achievement.”
I never said money in general has no correlation with achievement generally, but close. What I said was taxed money thrown to school districts generally was the case, NO correlation with achievement.
Money in general obviously has a correlation with achievement as if the parents are smart enough to be successful monetarily chances are they are above the average intelligence level and I do believe in Mendellian inheritance and some of those genes being passed onto their offspring, its a very basic scientific principle. As humans we aren’t above the most basic biological principles like Mendellian inheritance, would you agree?
What I was trying to say was in practice if you have lower than average intelligence parents they are going to procreate lower than average intelligence children. And you can throw all the money in the world to try to minimize or ameliorate this “achievement gap” to no avail. Because at the end of the day nature is greater than nurture.
Sorry but books and authors cannot replace the scientific method and data when it comes to human behavior. Human behavior is not above or on some pedestal that makes it immune to the same scrutiny as un-PC as it may be.
Bob, Sabrina – You’re both right. I don’t think Sabrina was saying that every school with high per capita student spending achieved better academic results than every school with lower per capita spending. Nothing is that absolute. You will find plenty of individual samples to refute most correlations. That said, it is hard to argue though that an increase in spending will make NO difference in results. It might not be a good return on investment, but I guarentee that if you tripled teacher salaries in the CPS system, results would improve in the medium term as super qualified people would change careers. Clearly, we can’t afford that option however.
Money isn’t the only answer- that much is clear. But in California, where every single school district gets the same amount of money per student, richer parents go to great lengths to hold multi-million dollar fundraisers every year so that they can spend more than the state allotment per student. Sometimes $10,000 to $20,000 more per pupil.
What does that money buy? Librarians, more books in the library, better or more computers, pools, more classes, technology for science experiments etc. etc.
If money didn’t matter- why would these parents be spending their own money year after year in the fundraisers? Why aren’t their smarts and genetics enough?
Clearly- they felt that this level playing field wasn’t good enough for their child (and that the amount California spends per pupil) isn’t giving them the best education. Too bad the middle class and lower middle class parents don’t have the same resources available to them and their kids.
bob and sabrina both have very valid points
“richer parents go to great lengths”
it not about richer parents its about ANY parents going to great lengths rich or poor.
“and going to college is the norm” and thats the biggest piece of the education Pie! a culture/community where everyone around you expects nothing less than a college degree. where your peers dont find it common place the dropping out is OK!
having a non-leaking, roof asbestos free, new text books helps but doenst define what a child can do and learn. a school can be a shack with no heat and text books from the 70’s but if the community and common thought is that welfare is emergancies only not a right, being knock up by 17 by three baby daddy is a bad thing, and that nothing short of full potential is the norm, etc. those kids in that shack will not only go to college, they will strive to higher than just that.
until 95% parent involvement and cultural attitudes change no matter how much $$$$$$ you throw at the problem it will not be corrected and will continue to get worse.
there is a school, i will check it out later, that the funding per student is on par or lower than CPS but its ranked in the top 25 in the state.
why? cause the community expects nothing less!
look, anyone who has been in a classroom can break it down to this single, unassailable fact:
a lower student-to-teacher ratio means a teacher can spend more time addressing the individual needs of a student.
that’s a fact, jack.
knock the ratio down from 25-1 to 20-1 or 15-1 and you *will* see improvements, immediately.
where Bob has a point is that just giving the CPS more money doesn’t ensure it will translate into more teachers and that improved ratio. when I taught the CPS in their idiotic ways had found a loophole to that, whereas all they needed to do was prove that a teacher’s overall student load equaled the required ratio.
So that meant maybe a few classes with 18 or 20 kids – but then a few with 30+. Let me just tell you that even as an energetic guy in my mid-twenties with Chicago street smarts, one class with 35 kids will have your head reeling for hours.
on the textbooks – I was teaching at LPHS for 4 months before an administrator even bothered to tell me about the book storage room, which had – shocking, I know – hundreds of copies of a book the kids were using, but several years newer/less beat up.
I hear things are better now, but when you get out into the historically underserved areas, keep in mind the parents aren’t exactly singing the praises of CPS to their kids, as they have their experiences which have shaped their opinions.
it is, as was mentioned above, a 3 or 4 generation-deep problem that will take to heal, no way around it.
“a lower student-to-teacher ratio means a teacher can spend more time addressing the individual needs of a student”
oops and add that to my comments above!
“CPS in their idiotic ways had found a loophole to that, whereas all they needed to do was prove that a teacher’s overall student load equaled the required ratio”
yep i will say it again from a post above, i can speak till your ears fall off on this
“dooooooode dont even get me started on that! i can go on for days about the student teacher ratio and how schools get around making it look better than what it real is”
Spending per student has doubled since 1970. Reading scores have remained flat. Discuss.
http://www.heritage.org/research/Education/images/b2179_chart4.gif
“Spending per student has doubled since 1970. Reading scores have remained flat. Discuss.”
gotta pay for those entitlement pension plans and cola raises…
“there is a school, i will check it out later, that the funding per student is on par or lower than CPS but its ranked in the top 25 in the state.”
One thing to be aware of in comparing spending per student, there are 3 types of school districts in Illinois–HS only, Elem only, and “unified”, and they often are ranked separately–you’ll see CPS as “23d”, but that’s among unified districts, in addition to the 22 unified distrcits with higher per student spending, there are 69 Elem district and 50 HS districts.
That said, I suspect you’re thinking of Naperville, which spends ~$800 less per student.
“Spending per student has doubled since 1970. Reading scores have remained flat. Discuss.”
The reading scores used in that chart are scaled; they don’t disclose what the scale is or whether it has changed over time; it may be that reading skills (the important thing) have improved or decreased or remain flat, but Heritage isn’t interested in that, just “proving” that increased expenditures haven’t lead to anything.
“That said, I suspect you’re thinking of Naperville, which spends ~$800 less per student”
it may be it, but i know it was a Highschool, for some reason Mt prospect HS, deerfield HS, or adi stevnson HS are poppin in my head when i try to remeber.
Since 1969, NAEP has conducted ongoing nationwide assessments of student achievement in various subjects. This report presents the results of NAEP’s long-term trend assessments in reading and mathematics that were administered in 2004 to students aged 9, 13, and 17. Because these same assessments have been administered at different times during NAEP’s 36-year history, it is possible to chart educational progress back to 1971 in reading and 1973 in mathematics.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2005464
stupid question here burt,
does that graph account for inflation?
Right below the graph it says it is in constant 2006-2007 dollars.
“it may be it, but i know it was a Highschool, for some reason Mt prospect HS, deerfield HS, or adi stevnson HS are poppin in my head when i try to remeber.”
CPS was $11,536/student in 07-08
It ain’t Stevenson–$14,497;
Mt Prospect & Prospect Heights are both Elem only distrcits (Dst 214 spent $15,757);
Ditto Deerfield (Dist 113 spent $19,910, #3 for HS dists).
Dig thru it here: http://www.illinoisloop.org/spending.html Scroll down to the excel links near the bottom.
In your link, the schools they highlight as providing a “GREAT” education all spend around $7500/student.
Some other choice links on that page….
More Spending Is Not Answer by Rod Paige, U.S. Secretary of Education, USA Today, January 10, 2003 “What determines a child’s future isn’t how much is spent, but how wisely that money is spent. If there is no accountability, or schools use unproven fads for instruction, it doesn’t matter how much money is thrown at a problem; it will be wasted.”
Spending Increases Don’t Improve Student Achievement: Report by Lori Drummer, School Reform News, May 1, 2006. “Dollars Don’t Yield Success: As has been the case with previous editions, this version of the Report Card found no evident correlation between improved student achievement and increasing education spending or lowering student-teacher ratios.”
“In your link, the schools they highlight as providing a “GREAT” education all spend around $7500/student.”
They’re pushing an agenda; I was linking for data accessability and nothing more.
AND, those $7500/student schools are individual schools AND two of them are Elem only AND they aren’t amortizing their (current and past) fundraising dollars into the per student cost AND charter schools have a substantial ability to free-ride on existing school districts.
Of course, the biggest difference is a lack of union contracts for every damn person who gets fitty cents from the school, from the teachers to the window washers.
I would love to see analysis on how US school education level/$ spent in comparison with other countries.
No offence, but math taught really bad even in good American schools.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH i feel better now
i remember now, its fricken St Charles, i read an article on it how it spends less and achivement is on par with the New Trier, Payton, Hinsdale.
CPS was $11,536/student in 07-08
St Charles was $10,952.91/student in 07-08
still i will repeat myself over again,
its not the funding for the school its the community, culture, parents, and over crowding in that order.
“No offence, but math taught really bad even in good American schools.”
I have to ask, was that intentional?
“I have to ask, was that intentional?”
312 is, I believe, a non-native (ie furriner) and that combined with normal non-editing for comments on the tubez lead to this. Admittedly, I had the same thought when I first read it.
Besides, it’s still better than Groove’s normal grammar here (ha!).
Apologies if that was insensitive. My inquiring mind wanted to know given the inability to read tone into the comments. Funny point re Groove 😉
Jon, anon (tfo),
Yes, I did learn English as a foreign language in my non-American school. I write much better in my native language:).
“it’s not the funding for the school its the community, culture, parents, and over crowding in that order.”
No, it’s race/IQ, community, culture, parents, and over crowding in that order. I really get tired of people avoiding the elephant in the room. Trillions of dollars spent over 45 years on the Great Society and no great society.
DanL – really? “race/IQ”? Are you implying that race and IQ are linked or that race is the most important thing for predicting academic success. Sorry dude, it’s 2009, you can’t write that without getting slammed. Let the comments rain in.
race has nothing to do with it!!!!!
community culture —– parents culture
2 different types of culture and each has an influence on the kid.
(culture, has to do with how importance the family or community view education, its all about that whether a group of people buy into the meritocracy argument and work hard to succeed., thereby investing in education)
some of you aren’t mitigating confounding variables
others are plain racists.
*and using that investment for results rather than motion.
“Of course, the biggest difference is a lack of union contracts for every damn person who gets fitty cents from the school, from the teachers to the window washers.”
it isn’t the teachers who are overpaid.
when I was there, the janitors (who were also stealing the money in the cup for coffee contributions) refused to clean graffiti off of either desks or blackboards, saying that if it wasn’t on the floor, it wasn’t their job.
I mean, PUH-LEEZE!
“it isn’t the teachers who are overpaid.”
No it isn’t. But they are (generally) underpaid in most charter/church schools, which makes the non-public schools cheaper.
And the janitors and so much of the other non-classroom costs are the nut of the problem. Not that I’m surprised that the janitors wouldn’t do “some other union”s job–you’ve seen a streets & san crew with 6 different guys taking all day doing 6 different parts of a job one competent person could do in half a day, all b/c they’re different unions (exaggeration, but only slight).
“Besides, it’s still better than Groove’s normal grammar here (ha!).”
“Funny point re Groove ;)”
you bastardz!
See…. I am in turn proving that the CPS systems sucks 🙂
btw; i have to work so my employeer will continue to pay me. so the choice is to slow down on typing here on crib chatter and proof read, or keep my job get a promotion so i can afford to move to bucktown. which one do you think i choose?
you bastardz 🙂
Screw you bastardz i am taking my ball and going home 🙁
“Screw you bastardz i am taking my ball and going home”
Don’t do that, dude. Tho I think we’ve officially killed this thread.
“Tho I think we’ve officially killed this thread.”
DanL killed this thread, i wasnt taking the bait. plus its budget season here and i didnt have the time 🙂
“DanL killed this thread, i wasnt taking the bait.”
I wonder if he’s any relation to Dan from Northbrook, from the 235 VanBuren thread.
anon,
he might be, i get the same vibe (had to go back and re-read the post)
the vibe i get from the posters on the RD 659 post are that they are not real buyers just people trying to market the condos and keep the hype going?
“the vibe i get from the posters on the RD 659 post are that they are not real buyers just people trying to market the condos and keep the hype going?”
I dunno. All the claimed buyers seem legit to me–I don’t doubt Hippo at all, for example; I’m less certain about the non-buyers (except the one dude pissed about walking away, but that was a long time ago now).
Sabrina said:
“But in California, where every single school district gets the same amount of money per student, ”
That’s how it’s supposed to be but the reality is different
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may/05/opinion/ed-school5
“… richer parents go to great lengths to hold multi-million dollar fundraisers”
True for smaller, wealthier school districts like Beverly Hills. In large school districts like LA Unified (where there is busing), pretty much every parent who can afford it sends their kids to private school.
“DanL killed this thread”
Good, because race is the ELEPHANT in the room. Period. That’s why the CPS sucks, and that’s why after $1 trillion dollars in Great Society wealth transfers, we still do not have a great society.
I think DanL’s “elephant” might’ve accidentally stepped on his “race/IQ.”
off the all import CPS topic, but, sabrina, when u get a chance, I am curious for what reason u deleted my post regarding Bob’s opinion of boystown and the historic role gays have played in urban redevelopment….
It’s pretty cool to see this place back on the market, I toured the house and noticed that the floors and plaster had been completely redone. Looks much better than when on the market in 2009