Another Reduction in Lincoln Park: 1120 W. Armitage
We’ve chattered about this 2-bedroom greystone property at 1120 W. Armitage in Lincoln Park several times.
It was recently reduced another $10,000.
It has central air, a washer/dryer in the unit, and parking.
Mary Gott at Koenig & Strey has the listing. See the pictures here.
Here’s its history:
Unit #301: 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, 1150 square feet
- Sold in March 1992 for $162,500
- Sold in January 1997 for $179,000
- Sold in April 2004 for $321,500
- Originally listed in May 2008 for $415,000
- Canceled
- Re-listed in July 2008 for $399,000
- Canceled
- Re-listed in October 2008 for $384,800 (parking included)
- Reduced again
- Currently listed at $374,900
- Assessments of $210 a month
- Taxes of $4,101
- Central air
Nice hood.
There’s no way the current owner will sell this 1100 sq ft 2bd/1ba for $375,000! Especially in this market. The owner has some equity due to a signficant downpayment. I suggests the owner price the unit at the ’04 price minus $10,000 and maybe they’ll be some interest. Because that’s where prices are heading whether this owner wants to admit it or not.
they’ll = there will
$375k for a 2br 1ba? Are people out of their fucking minds? The area is nice, yes… but this isn’t freaking manhattan. I seriously wouln’t dream of paying over 250k for the place. What a rip!
I’m looking at new construction 2bd/2ba on a standard 125×25 lot with all that great stuff (professional appliances, hardwood (concrete sound proofing between floors, garage parking, etc.). Here’s where I’m looking…
North of Wrightwood
South of Diversey
East of Sheffield
West of Halsted
There are so many strong opinions here so what would you say is a “good price” for a 1200sqft place. Again brand new, etc.
Thanks. Really appreciate the feedback.
I would never pay that much to have a 2/1…I don’t care if it is LP. Crazy. There are plenty of other places to live with more space and cost less. The problem is that it is in a price range where most of the buyers are going to be couples and most modern couples don’t want a 2 bed/1 bath.
2bd/1ba units are $1,400 a month rental apartments not $375k condos.
add another full bathroom and maybe they can get $315. But still, living on Armitage ain’t the quietest thing.
JasonM, there’s about 7 properties for sale in that two block radius that are 2br/2ba only one or two are new builds, and range from 415-450k I think they are probably about 1300-1500 sq. ft.
Great area, but very pricey right now. Give it a few months and the prices will probably drop 10% or more if you’re lucky.
I wish I could afford to live there, but its just rediculous how much it costs.
Edumakated,
Most ‘modern’ couples are going to be doing some redefining of what they ‘want’ in the coming economic downturn. Dare I say that not everyone is going to have their own bathroom going forward in the future.
Equally so, few are going to want to pay 375k for a 2/1. That is ridiculous. I was a bit bearish last thread when I said 225k but for this I don’t think 270k is unreasonable.
Chances are instead of take that loss the owner will decide on just remaining there for the time being.
This is still bubble pricing, it is significantly over its 2004 price and no matter the area, we have fallen well below 2004 pricing. Somewhere around a 2000-2002 price. And the longer they wait to adjust it to that, the further back in time we’ll be going price wise.
We might be over the hump of the sub prime loans but the ALT A’s and such are yet to hit, and those are more of the “middle class” loans. At least in relation to sub prime.
Oh and that dark of kitchen counter tops with that light of cabinets is a NO NO. They contrast way too much.
My wife and I are 20 somethings who found it very difficult to find 2/2’s in our price range. Even more difficult was finding a second bedroom that didn’t have 9′ in one direction or wasn’t a “buried” bedroom. The pictures make the bedrooms look incredibly small. Even a twin bed looks tight. And for only having one bath, the vanity has one sink, and is relatively small. The kitchen also needs updating.
A lot of people indicate how much they like the location, but personally I find it incredibly congested. I personally don’t think its worth anything above 325k.
NSARCH-
My wife and I are 20 somethings who found it very difficult to find 2/2’s in our price range.
I assume you found something to your liking then? Care to share some details about location and price and when you closed?
ChiGuy
We closed in early September on a 1400 S.F. duplex w/ parking, deck and separate patio. I am an architect, so I was looking for something a bit different, more open space, not cookie-cutter split 2-BR’s etc. We found this one in the University Village area. My wife is a Dr. and works some days in private practice, and other days she is a prof. at UIC. I work in the west loop. Convenience was definitely a factor for us. (we could both walk to work when it isn’t -20 but we still have a car for) List price was 354k, i believe. We negotiated it down to 314k. After renting for several years, from Lakeshore Drive, to new construction in the west loop, we knew exactly what we did and did not want in our first place.
ChiGuy:
Nice negotiations. Did it include parking?
Glad to see someone on this site, besides me, who is (was) looking to buy for personal use.
Oh I’m looking to buy too; I’m using this site to gauge price declines in desirable areas.
My wife and I are also looking to buy a 2br2ba for under 300k (more like 250) in a not terrible neighborhood that’s close to the city or public transit. Preferrably 1250sqft+ Only places we’ve found in our price range so far are Uptown and the west side 🙁
Steve A,
Ours did include parking (indoor) We were actually considering many places that had non-covered exterior parking. On days like this past week I’m glad we thought beyond how the weather was at the time.
I’m also looking to buy in the next 2 years, and am using this site to gauge prices, locations, and opinions on Chicago property and to educate myself before I make the largest monetary transaction of my life.
Give it time…..
“Sonies on December 16th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
My wife and I are also looking to buy a 2br2ba for under 300k (more like 250) in a not terrible neighborhood that’s close to the city or public transit. Preferrably 1250sqft+ Only places we’ve found in our price range so far are Uptown and the west side “
Yeah I know.. hey HD, do you work for RJS?
My signficant other and I are also looking for a bungalow or other nice home somewhere preferably in Old Irving but even the cheapest SFH is $360,000 and it hasn’t been updated since the early 70’s. Last night after browsing listings I finally noticed some meaningful price reductions. For most sellers and builders, 2009 is going to be the year of capitulation, or foreclosure, or maybe even both.
No I don’t work for RJS.
HD – what websites do you typically use for browsing listings?
chicagohomeestates.com – the search by neighborhood feature is very well done.
I guess my next agenda is to find 2/2s around 1250 square feet for $250k in “nice” neighborhoods near public transportation.
You can find them but you have to be ready for something that doesn’t have granite and stainless steel.
I saw an estate sale in Lakeview a few months back. I didn’t have time to chatter about it at the time but it was a 2/2 with parking in a vintage building in east lakeview. But it needed a complete gut rehab. Kitchen hadn’t been touched in maybe 30 years (but it had nice older wood cabinets which you COULD paint and spruce up.)
No buyers touched it for over a month. Decent monthly assessments too.
Listed for $350k and sold for $320k. It was about 1450 square feet (one of those vintage units with the full sized dining room.)
More affordable units ARE out there if you look.
We’ve also chattered about quite a few foreclosures (mainly in 345 N. LaSalle) that are under $300k for a 2/2. You also sometimes find them in Old Town buildings (especially Michael’s Terrace at 1309 N. Wells- although that building has gotten more expensive recently.)
I’d also look in Albany Park as I’ve seen quite a few short sales and foreclosures there in the 2/2s.
I don’t know if anyone is looking south,but there is a great 2bed/2bath with a den and parking that has been gut rehabbed with stainless,granite,has a fireplace and new hardwood.The address is 3246 S Prairie.I live on the same block and the neighborhood is in a landmark district.The area is called the Gap.
I know the unit has had many price reductions and I think it is in the $229,000 range.
The neighborhood is safe and the unit backs up to the School of Optometry,with bus tansportation a block away.
Just my 2 cents.
Well to be more specific, preferrably a 250k 2×2 who’s assessments are under 400 a month. I could live in an old vintage coop but the assessments would be more than the mortgage, and obviously out of my price range!
Despite being on Armitage, this perhaps the best submarket on the north side. The fact that financing is becoming more and more affordable (thanks Ben!), I am willing to bet that this will sell above $350K. Take a look at the sales within the last 3 months in that area and I think you may be agree (see 2033 N Racine, 1101 W Armitage, etc). I know we all want to pounce on great opportunities, but the market isnt made on a blog – its made with real buyers and sellers.
Pre-bubble you could have purchased this unit for much less than $250k. This unit sold for $179k in 1997. Prices will eventually return to pre-bubble pricing it is going to take some time. It took us years to get to crazy pricing and it will take years to return to traditional affordability. I’m not saying your dream home will go for pennies on the dollar but there’s no reason why someone shouldn’t be able to buy a 2/2 for less than 250 in the LP. Fringe areas will get hit even harder. Rogers Park, lincoln sq, uptown, etc, will return to price levels where the people who live there can afford to buy. there are plenty of units for sale and there are more than enough condos to go around for everyone with decent credit, a down payment and verifiable income to buy one.
I hate to say this- as we’ve gotten into this discussion in the past- but the inner suburbs are FAR cheaper than the city is (still.)
For $250k- you can get a bungalow in Oak Park and in Evanston (some of them in foreclosure- obviously.) I’ve seen townhouses in Oak Park for around $225k.
Question of the day. Is it currently cheaper to rent or cheaper to buy a $400k walk up condo in Lincoln Park?
Mortgage – $320K at 4.5%
Taxes – $4,500
Assess – $150
Total housing exp buying (not including tax savings) $1,725 per month. Housing exp after tax savings $1,475 per month.
Where are you going to rent for $1,475 per month? Hello!!
Sabrina – Maybe we should all move to Plainfield. Very affordable out there…
Steve:
The funny thing about your example is that few buyers in the targeted age range for the $400k condo have $80k sitting around to put down as a downpayment.
Additionally- the other funny thing is- why would someone WANT to buy a depreciating asset?
Unless they’re going to live there a LOOONG time- it makes no financial sense.
The $400k condo in LP will be priced lower in 6 months and then lower again in 12 months.
Gosh Steve- it’s closer to live in Oak Park (if you work in the loop) then in Edgewater, Rogers Park, Lincoln Square and other neighborhoods.
Why not live there if it’s considerably cheaper? Both have potbellys, starbucks, movie theaters etc.
Where are you going to get a mortgage at 4.5%? This government plan is dead in the water. No banks are offering rates that cheap. You’d be lucky to get 5.5%.
Steve, Not only is your rate rediculous, what renter is going to have 80k laying around?
make it a more realistic example for a renter to buyer scenario…
3.5% down FHA loan
$14,000 down
$386,000 loan
at 5% rate
$2072 a month +
$150 PMI +
$150 Assessments (really low) +
$358 in taxes (must escrow if FHA)
=
$2730 a month for JUST housing with no utility bills included!!!
I can name a few places in Lincoln park you can rent for under that…
That’s my point. It’s probably 1% of all renters that have $80,000 sitting in the bank in cash.
No market can be sustained with that small of a set of buyers.
There’s nothing wrong with living in Plainfield. You can get a lot of house for the money whereas for the same money you get a walk-up in Lincoln Park. The prices should be pretty similar for both. Size and location are the trade off. $400k for a walk-up in LP or $400 for a house in Plainfield are both ridiculous; $200-$250k is more affordable.
Also, don’t forget to take out the time value of that $80k not being tied up in your house.
At least $6k a year if you just put it in equities with a healthy dividend (think health care right now and others) and assume negligible appreciation of the principal. aka another $500 a month to spend on rent.
Even using Steve’s numbers that alone gets you to $2000 a month to rent (and as others have said your rate and estimates are crazy).
Sonies:
Stevo will point out that you are including principal in your calculations and are therefor wrong. If you want to argue with Stevo, you need to know that, else he will focus on that discrepancy to total distraction. Your numbers only come up to $1608+$658= $2266/month in Stevo’s calculations, and is about $1950 after Stevo’s tax benefit calculation. So he’ll argue (not w/o some basis–but ignoring lotsa other factors) that you’re overstating the costs by over 40%. It’s pointless, really.
4.5% is all over the place today. Do you think I make this stuff up?
agree with Steve. Had one close yesterday. Easy!!!!!
Sabrina – The reason renters don’t have $80k saved up is because they are renters and they are throwing their money away. I bet their landlords have $80k 🙂
Sonies – No offense but how many FHA loans do you think are floating around Lincoln Park. I just sold a $450,000 condo to a young couple with $200k in the bank. They were attornies making well over $300k per year. My new neighbor moved in 2 months ago and paid cash. I have never sold a place in Lincoln Park where the buyers did not put down at least 10%. 80% of the time it is 20% down. And yes, they are all young and successful…
FHA = Typical?
Let’s go back to the whole need a good real estate agent compared to not needing one. If you use a good real estate agent you will know where to find a under valued property and where to find a 4.5% interest rate on a 30-year fixed. No points either. If you don’t get a good real estate agent you will end up buying over priced new constrcution (off the brochure) and finance at 5.5%.
There are those who know, and then there are those who think they know but really don’t know at all. Know what i mean?
Heitman, the reason I have significant savings is BECAUSE I rent. Had I been a mortgage paying debt slave for the past 4 years all I’d have is a depreciating “asset”. My housing costs are half of what they’d be if I had bought the same place.
KP – Don’t forget to calculate the apprciation over 10 years as well. If you assume dividends will stay strong then you have to figure incomes will stay strong as well. Strong incomes mean strong housing.
2% (inflation after this mess is over) appreciation for 10 years equals approx. a $487,000 sales price. That is 100% return on your investment! Holy cow!!
Agree with Steve. Call me in 2018 and let me know how much money you saved by renting and paying someone else’s mortgage. I am sure you made a huge return in the stock market this year……….
Pete – The reason I have significant savings is because I have bought and sold my residences over the past 10 years. Moved up 3 times and pocketed $350k in profits. Put $200k into my last purchase and still have $150k to arrange in nice piles on a slow night. Plus think of all that tax savings along the way…
Steve everything you say is wrong and warped. I will own you tomorrow. I don’t have the energy to argue with a brainwashed dope tonight.
Oh, by the way – I just looked at this 1120 w Armitage listing and it is not a good place. It is tiny with tiny bedrooms. This is a good example of what not to buy.
$350k purchase price
$280k mrtg at 4.5%
Total monthly housing exp (before tax savings) $1,601. Could you rent it for $1,601? Probably, but I still would not buy it.
Sonies – I hope you save up a lot of rent money because you will need to “own me”. 🙂
I would like nothing more than to believe your rosy outlook could be possible, but imho there is no asset class you can assume will be strong for the next ten years. At this point, I am more interested in remaining debt free until the very murky future becomes a little clearer. Who knows how bad things will be by this time next year. And you might want to keep your pile of money right there where you can count it each night. You may be paying banks to take care of it for you in the future.
Heitman: “Don’t forget to calculate the apprciation over 10 years as well. If you assume dividends will stay strong then you have to figure incomes will stay strong as well. Strong incomes mean strong housing.”
We’re returning to pre-bubble pricing and it’s just a matter time before ten years appreciation will be zero (2001-2011).
PUT THIS INTO YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT!!! 4.5% mortgages hahahahah!
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVjy9d2JLgPU&refer=home
Mortgage Rates Left in Dust by Treasuries, Failures (Update1)
Email
By Jody Shenn
Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) — Americans seeking mortgages aren’t getting the full benefit of record low yields on Treasuries and government-supported mortgage bonds, blunting U.S. efforts to curb the housing crisis.
While the average rate on a fixed 30-year mortgage fell to 5.18 percent last week from 6.47 percent in October, according to Mortgage Bankers Association data, the historical relationship between home loans and mortgage bonds shows rates should be at least half a percentage point lower. Though the U.S. is paying nothing to borrow in some cases, homebuyers are paying about $730 more a year then they would otherwise on a $200,000 mortgage. “
Homedelete – If the average is 5.18% what doyou think the range is that makes up that average? People like you should rent because you just get it and would be one of those people that over pay and get a bad loan.
4.5% is available whether you think it is or not…
Congrats Heitman, you were in the right place at the right time. It wasn’t hard to make a pile of money buying and selling real estate over the last few years. I wish I had moved to this area in 1997 to pick up a sweet real estate deal. But try doing that from 2005-2015.
“4.5% is available whether you think it is or not…”
Tell us where…
TS – Check Amerisave. They have it listed on their website today. Other ways is to know a broker that will write you a loan at their wholesale rates. Again, if you have the right connections all this is possible. Today, my broker can get my clients 4.625% on a 30-year with $700 in total lender fees.
“my broker can get my clients 4.625%”
Huh, I didn’t realize that 4.5=4.625. That accounts for some things.
Steve Said,
“Sonies – No offense but how many FHA loans do you think are floating around Lincoln Park. I just sold a $450,000 condo to a young couple with $200k in the bank. They were attornies making well over $300k per year. My new neighbor moved in 2 months ago and paid cash. I have never sold a place in Lincoln Park where the buyers did not put down at least 10%. 80% of the time it is 20% down. And yes, they are all young and successful…
FHA = Typical?”
–Yes, FHA is typical when you are talking about first time homebuyers, or renters to buyers. Which is where your original stupid comment came from.
Please tell me where you find thousands of people with 200k in the bank… PLEASE, it would make my job as a financial advisor MUCH easier. Truth is, those people probably make up less than a tenth of one percent of the population in Chicago.
I would say that there is a large percentage of 100-95% financed places in Lincoln park that were bought in the last 3 years.—
Steve Said,
“KP – Don’t forget to calculate the apprciation over 10 years as well. If you assume dividends will stay strong then you have to figure incomes will stay strong as well. Strong incomes mean strong housing.
2% (inflation after this mess is over) appreciation for 10 years equals approx. a $487,000 sales price. That is 100% return on your investment! Holy cow!!”
—First off you aren’t subtracting the mortgage you owe.
Second, In order to make up a 10% drop in price (conservative estimate “after this mess is over”) you would need 10 years of 2% growth TO BREAK EVEN. Meanwhile your 80k is sitting inside of an illiquid asset not gaining any return whatsoever that you couldn’t sell if you wanted to because you overpaid for the property in the first place.
So in 10 years you might break even, even though you’ve been paying to the bank well over 33% interest just to keep your money locked away in an illiquid asset!! Well done!—-
Steve Said
“Oh, by the way – I just looked at this 1120 w Armitage listing and it is not a good place. It is tiny with tiny bedrooms. This is a good example of what not to buy.
$350k purchase price
$280k mrtg at 4.5%
Total monthly housing exp (before tax savings) $1,601. Could you rent it for $1,601? Probably, but I still would not buy it.”
–A payment on a 280k mortgage at 4.5% which they are out there if you have a good credit score, that is one point I will agree with you there. Hell I could get one…
anyway its $1418 a month
Assessments are $210 a month
Taxes are $341 a month
Insurance is lets say $20 a month
That makes total “monthly housing exp” $1989 a month. Where the hell are you getting your numbers from?
You know as a landlord or owner of a property you still have to pay taxes and assessments. And god help you if you or your tenants piss off the condo association while you rent out the place, they will make your life miserable as a landlord.
And P.S. those tax savings won’t be around forever. They were implemented as an incentive for people to buy houses and were a factor in creating this bubble. Look for Obama to repeal those tax cuts once the economy stabilizes.–
Rates were below 5% yesterday (no cost refinance). Not sure where they are today.
You can’t believe the averages that are quoted on bloomberg or yahoo. You need to look at mortgage bond pricing.
Sonies, when you say “Insurance is lets say $20 a month,” are you talking about mortgage insurance? Or homeowner’s insurance? If the latter–tell me where you’re buying it, because I pay $500 a year and my home is worth a lot less than $350K!
Sonies, Sonies, Sonies. I could see you were going to get in a fight with Stevo, so I gave you a tip and you just ignored it. And you added in insurance that a renter should be paying, too, so it’s not an ownership cost.
Also, “In order to make up a 10% drop in price (conservative estimate “after this mess is over”) you would need 10 years of 2% growth TO BREAK EVEN.”
This could be right, if “BREAK EVEN” means up 9.7% (.9*1.02^10=1.097); yes, it’s probably still a loss in real terms, but that’s a different issue that Stevo always ignores. Being flip in numerical arguments just feeds Stevo; get it right or stay away from it if you’re arguing with him.
Sorry I meant to write 5 years instead of 10 but either way, since inflation is around 3-5% (probably higher in the next 10 years) its still a real dollar loss on an illiquid asset.
if you are a condo landlord you are still going to have insurance costs for the structural items within the property (i.e. everything inside of the drywall), no? Obvisouly you aren’t insuring the renter’s personal items, and the condo coverage covers the building and common elements.
Sonies _ no wonder you don;t have many clients. Explain to me how purchasing at $400k and selling at $487k is not a 100%+ return on your down payment of $80k?
Most don’t purchase at a price they assume will drop by 10%. If you are so certain prices will drop by another 10%, you should short the housing index and make some money. I personally believe there are a bunch of opportunities out here where you can today purchase at 90% of what is preceived to be FMV. I don’t buy anything that can’t be more than supported by rental cash flows, even when it is my own residence. If prices do fall below rental support yields, it is a short term over reaction in the market. Eventually everyone looks for yield, whether it is in treasuries, equities, or real estate.
Anon (tfo) — homeowner’s/condo insurance is a LOT more than renter’s insurance. In my case, 5X more. I think Sonies has to have meant PMI, which you’d have to pay with less than 20% down. That would be closer to the $20 he quoted. As for homeowner’s insurance, that is def. a cost that has to be figured in to owning vs. renting (again, they are very different products: the former protects structures plus your stuff, the latter just your stuff.)
Sorry I keep posting, on this but: SFH insurance > condo owner’s insurance > renter’s insurance. Each by a pretty wide margin–like I said, I went from paying $100/year for renter’s insurance to $500/year for condo owner’s insurance.
“Most don’t purchase at a price they assume will drop by 10%. If you are so certain prices will drop by another 10%, you should short the housing index and make some money.”
Thanks for the idea, just sold a put on SRS. going to make 5% return in 27 hours.
SRS shorts the Dow Jones U.S. Real Estate Index, which contains primarily REITs. Other than Equity Residential, I don’t think the index contains much more that is housing-related.
The SHill says, “If you are so certain prices will drop by another 10%, you should short the housing index and make some money.”
The money’s already on that bet. Here’s the latest CME Case-Shiller futures trades (Chicago):
09/08 ACTUAL CS Index 147.84
02/09 144.60
05/09 137.00
11/09 130.40
02/10 129.80
05/10 125.40
11/10 130.60
Sonies Says – “Thanks for the idea, just sold a put on SRS. going to make 5% return in 27 hours.”
Another reason you have no clients… selling a put makes you long the housing market. Are you sure you are a financial advisor?
G,
I tried doing the CS futures trades. There is no market – at least for the farther out contracts. The prices they show are often based upon some kind of committee based settlement price determination process but no trades actually take place there. I had bids out for months and finally gave up.
Long a double SHORT ETF, idiot. Assuming it gets assigned, which, currently at this moment it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen.
Heitman said, “Check Amerisave. They have it listed on their website today.”
For 4.5% the fees are $8155 for a $400K loan. My broker got to 4.75% yesterday and is higher than that now. Once again you stretched the truth.
Why lie? If you want to make arguments at least be honest.
“Why lie?”
Stevo’s a lawyer, accountant and realtor. What do you expect?
If your broker got you 4.75% yesterday do you think 4.5% was out there as well? How much do you think your broker made?
Yesterday Amerisave was at 4.5% with $700 in fees. Markets move!
Gary,
There doesn’t appear to be much of a market without hedging by home builders. There is also that little problem of the contract value calculated at $250 times the index value.
Yeah, it was a bit of a disappointment. I had it all figured out. I was going to lock in the price of a mcmansion 3 years out but it was not to be. Macromarkets is going to launch some kind of a CS based exchange traded instrument soon so stay tuned.
Gary,
I know that MacroMarkets was coming out with 2 ETFs (2x leveraged) tracking the CS Composite 10 index. I think they sought approval for an IPO last month. The tickers will be UMM = Major Markets Up DMM = Major Markets Down.
I should have known you knew, you know?
I used to be a broker and I worked with him. 4.75% was the best rate he has seen this week paying him just under half a point.
The post you said to check Amerisave was at 10:30AM and you said the pricing was there today. I checked just after that. In that same post you said your broker could get 4.625% with $700 in lender fees TODAY.
Keep making things up to support your crappy arguments.