Buyers Still Want New Construction: 825 N. Hudson in River North
This building at 825 N. Hudson, called “The Hudson”, at the corner of Hudson and Chicago Avenue in River North was built in 2007.
This picture was taken from Chicago Avenue- so it shows the side of the building.
It has 19 units.
The units have been on the market since 2008.
Out of those 19, it looks like 14 have now sold with 3 selling in just the last 4 months.
Unit #3C is one of the units that is still available and it is currently on the market for $339,000.
The units have granite counter tops and brazilian hardwood floors.
They also have the new construction amenities of washer/dryer in the unit, air conditioning and parking available.
Unit #2C just sold with a price of $305,000 including the parking.
Are these selling because of the affordable price point for this location?
Or because they’re “new”?
The building is also FHA approved and allows for just a 3.5% down payment.
Nancy Hearon at Jameson Sotheby’s has the listing. See some of the pictures here.
Unit #3C: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, no square footage listed
- Unit #2C just sold for $305,000 (including the parking)
- Currently listed for $339,000 (parking is $30k extra)
- Assessments of $153 a month
- Taxes are “new”
- Central Air
- Washer/dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 14×16
- Bedroom #2: 10×11
I think they are selling because most river north 2/2’s a few blocks south are listed just below 350k. At this building, they are getting brand new without the high assessments. The only bad thing about this place is that it is on the wrong side of Chicago Ave. Don’t even think of taking a jog north of this place.
I agree on location. I dont think things are that bad around here anymore in general, but the southern part of the row houses block is one of two spots that still are a bit messy at times (with the Marshall Garden/Evergreen area being the other).
“Don’t even think of taking a jog north of this place.”
Might be good for training. Jog to the South, sprint work to the North?
Nice to see new stuff that should push the market to it. 3.5% down still pisses me off though.
I have a friend who owns here. Funny that the pictures from the rooftop don’t show the view of the Cabrini rowhouses next door. Have had complaints from my friend about crackheads sitting below their windows keeping them up at night in the summer. The unit itself is nice though, for what it’s worth.
My wife and I were tempted by this building but ultimately we didn’t want to deal with the location
I know this place isn’t recent new construction, but it baffles me when I still see brand new development starts. I have a hard time understanding the numbers when labor rates have not gone down since the boom, and I have only seen a small decrease in material costs. This building with 19 units at 4 stories probably occupies 4 standard lots. In that location lot price is still $350k? A 19 unit building at 1300sf avg each finished at $200psf = 4.94mil… +1.4mil land = $334k/unit. Taxes, insurance, holding costs, Alderman kickbacks… I’m not sure I see it? Buyers still want new construction, does that make developers build it on slim margin?
Anyone care to put together a profitable development scenario for this one…
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/515-W-Oak-St-60610/home/18344527
I looked here over a year ago. The day I went there were about 30 dudes just hanging out right across the street, someone lieing down on the ground, and a shopping cart chained to the fence of this building. Without even going in, I concluded that the developer would actually have to pay me to live there. This thing is an epic fail. The developer would be wise to pay the loiterers some sort of fee to hang out somewhere else during open houses on Sundays.
amazed so many cribchatters went to a showing of this place?
a quick google mapping of the address should have been your answer right there.
“The only bad thing about this place is that it is on the wrong side of Chicago Ave. Don’t even think of taking a jog north of this place.”
Its not so much that its on the wrong side of Chicago as it is on the wrong side of the Cabrini row homes. There is nothing on this side of the row homes and Orleans…there is supposed to be a Community Center/gym maintained by parks and recs going in next to this (according to a sign on chicago avenue) but for now there is nothing….The area by Japonais, Kingsbury and Groupon is north of Chicago but is much more developed and safer. I walk there all the time with no safety issues when I’m going to go kayaking on the river.
I have read, however, that CHA may be demolishing the rest of the row homes because it was costing more to rehab them than to build new housing elsewhere. As of now, most are empty. http://wethepeoplemedia.org/homepage/cabrini-rowhouses%E2%80%99-fate-in-jeopardy/ If they go away, then this area will get better for this new developement…though I wouldn’t buy here. Its an isolated building.
well I think super long term this is probably a good place to buy because I think eventually the crap from this block of town will be removed, but um… yeah at this point in my life I wouldn’t bother roughing it
I saw this listing online a few months ago and thought it was too good to be true so I drove by… not only is this building across the street from some of the last remaining Cabrini public housing, it’s next door to basketball courts which means it’s a congregating area for the kids in the area.
“I have read, however, that CHA may be demolishing the rest of the row homes because it was costing more to rehab them than to build new housing elsewhere”
I live in one of the communities nearby and one of the CHA folks that came to one of our board meetings mentioned that they had run into mold issues in a number of them and that the mold remediation was going to be more pricey than they anticipated. If you look at the CHA plan for transformation pdf on their site, this last year is the first year that they project $0 for Cabrini Rowhouse construction/repairs. While the CHA has not published a final decision yet, ‘unofficial word’ (for whatever that is worth here in chicago!) is that they are coming down. The big question is what goes up, some of the Cabrini Advisory counsel folks are screaming pretty loud for it to be all CHA, no mixed income. However, there is basically no funding for all CHA since the HUD rules changed some time back.
I guess this is a wait and see situation, though there are apparently very few families left living there anymore.
Guess that explains why it was so expensive to rehab —MOLD. That’s really dangerous for asthmatic kids. As I understand it, those rowhomes were supposed to be for kids. Bad idea to put kids near mold. Not good for residents…and all CHA buildings are not good for neighborhoods. I think they should do something mixed commercial/residential since Chicago Avenue is really busy and very commercial in feeling. With Groupon nearby this neighborhood could support some restaurants and commercial space (jobs for CHA residents too). They should consider a movie theater with free parking like the Roosevelt Collection. Movie theaters would do well in a mixed income neighborhood and I’m tired of cabbing or paying for parking at River East…I think it would attract folks from West Town, Bucktown, LP, Wicker Park ..
I know this will sound crazy, but I don’t that think any long-term development (housing, retail, dining, etc.) should be undertaken based upon Groupon. In the short term, sure: a new place to eat, another gastro pub, a place to buy expensive cupcakes, whatever. But a few years from now, I’ll be surprised if Groupon has more than a small fraction of its current (and still growing) presence.
Anonny — your right regarding Groupon, but the 600 West building was full before Groupon was there so there is still a decent lunch presnece not to mention the new condos in the area with young professionals and families who want more reasonable priced places as compared to Japonais etc…
What I really meant to underscore is that long term development of the parcel of land where the Cabrini Rowhomes sit, which faces chicago would seem to be better utilized if it was commercial (or at least the small parcel facing Chicago Avenue). The area is zoned low rise b/c of the federal money used to demolish Cabrini (density restrictions make it nearly impossible for zoning variances for high rises since Chicago would have to pay back federal money…and we’re broke). Thus, I think the section facing Chicago next to the parking garage would be better developed as commercial or mixed commercial residential than to put in townhouses to replace the rowhomes.
A movie theater would be a great idea… i hate going to trafficville/touristville river east, or north costco or the south loop to see a movie
then again, there haven’t been many movies lately that I even wanted to see… so maybe throw up a home depot or something
Only trouble that comes from putting commercial in that Cabrini land (and it is actually what I would want to see, fewer residence and more things to do) is the Target situation. There are several consent decrees related to use of former CHA land, mainly around enough residential units being built. Now, as we saw with the Division St. Target it can be overcome. But, i would guess each time they do chose to put non-residential development in, the next time they try will be a little harder. But hey, this is chicago, im sure that is nothing a slightly bigger check to the right person cant fix.
CHA should buy the remaining parcels of Park of Old Town for CHA residents…they aren’t selling and the city has bailed out the developer (might as well get some units for the money spent). This way, there is still the same number of CHA units in the overall area and the Chicago street parcel can be put to its highest economic use. As for the people who paid market rate at Park of Old Town…the city should offer to buy back their units at the price they paid since putting more CHA in the Park of Old Town would change the demographic they thought they were buying into. This way everone wins…
This is probably going to sound mean, but why not move the CHA units into the far south side where there is already a lot of violence (Pullman area maybe)? It’s not as those these people work and need an easy commute.
This is probably going to sound mean, but why not move the CHA units into the far south side where there is already a lot of violence (Pullman area maybe)? It’s not as if these people work and need an easy commute.
Local-
Only problem with that is that you return to the concentrated city housing model that caused so much trouble before. You would also cause a troubling ripple effect. What happens to old town village (the ones on division between larabee and halsted) or old town village east (the ones on Sedgwick) if all of a sudden the neighborhood across the street is all CHA. What happens if Target has already built their building when this happens, you think they are staying across for concentrated CHA housing, then you have another empty building. I think you would cause all kinds of trouble in moving too far away from a stated plan.
Plus you would destroy the marketability of the mixed income concept. If the city ever chooses to substantially go back on a stated neighborhood distribution, it had better solve all their problems for good, because no one would ever buy in a mixed income area if they knew the distribution could be changed overnight. And it is clear that the need for public housing isnt going away, further it is clear that the nation is moving to a scattered poverty model…tough to do scattered if no one is willing to live in mixed income
Pl
Good point….you may be right, but if the City buys them out then the owners will have some assurance that if this happens to them they can recoup their costs and leave. As far as the complex across the street is concerned…it is different complex and there would be no increase in the concentration of CHA for Cabrini as a whole…your only moving these families one block (from rowhouses to park of old town) and this doesn’t change overall neighborhood demographis or school demographis. Target won’t care b/c it plans to draw from more than the neighborhood.
Besides, how on earth will Park of Old Towne ever become mixed income? Who is going to pay market rate there? It made sense during the boom when everyone’s value was rising…makes no sense now when you can get the same thing in a non-mixed income buildng for the same price. No one is buying here…..the townhouses are supposed to be for families yet the school they feed too has dismal scores…see:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/ct-mre-0612-podmolik-homefront-20110610,0,4363228.column
Regardless, I still think you could put in the same number of CHA units where the rowhouses stand and still allow for commercial development fronting Chicago. You can buid up to 7 stories so just build a slightly higher builidng (3-4 stores).
It would make more sense to make this area less concentrated CHA to attract commercial buisness, but I don’t think this could politicall happen. CHA units are still too concentrated in certain sections of the city…put some new smaller buildings in LP, Lakeview etc…this would be better for the children and schools (concentrated poverty and low test scores are highly correlated). But again, while the smartest plan, it won’t fly politically.
Local-
Why should some people pay a lot of money to live in Old Town, while others get to live there for free? The city should just buy them places like this and forget about them: http://www.homepath.com/search.html?ms=&zip=&xs=&src_ref=&cno=000&pi=&mlsid=&pg=2&bhi=&pa=20000&st=IL&bdi=&ci=Chicago&listingid=23919658
Jenny, that’s great. Send lil ol g’ma, with the blue hair, down into the gang wars. I have to admit, i am laughing…. Just shove em in the violence. Thunderdome maybe? The U.S. Does appear just about ready for the colliseum.
“Jenny, that’s great. Send lil ol g’ma, with the blue hair, down into the gang wars. I have to admit, i am laughing…. Just shove em in the violence. Thunderdome maybe? The U.S. Does appear just about ready for the colliseum.”
Ze:
I’d watch what you say to jenny, she might drive down to Rio and run your bike-riding self over, just for spite.
LOL @ financing a $2900 property
LOL @ financing a $2900 property
also LOL @ the Last Sale Price: $175,000 Last Sale Date: 08/07/2007
ouch!
thats only a 98.3% loss
Wow, Jenny! You took this from a real estate blog to a Klan meeting in 2 short posts.
I’m getting Dan flashbacks.
“I’d watch what you say to jenny, she might drive down to Rio and run your bike-riding self over, just for spite.”
Ze probably has loudspeakers outside the compound, programmed with CTA announcements, allowing him to take her out when she jumps. Or, he’s passed a bylaw against dog ownership.
and to be fair, jenny didn’dt mention anything about the color of the Cabrini residents skin… so before you start screaming about racism, you might want to look in the mirror
Local-
I agree about Parkside- full disclosure, that is where i live now. As to the prices, you are finally seeing the developer getting with it on prices and things starting to sell. A number of contracts in the condo buildings and 3 townhouses (that i know of) on my block in the last month or so. Seems during the boom that they understood that the units here needed to be 20%-25% less than similar units elsewhere. But, (could have been arrangements with their building financing, not sure) when the units in the real part of old town fell 20%, they only dropped their price by 10% (just example numbers, not sure exact numbers, point is they didnt keep up with the price drops elsewhere).
I know a lot of the folks over here and i dont know anyone who bought here to “be part of anything” we bought here because we liked the units, liked the location and thought the % discount compared to what we were seeing elsewhere was worth the costs associated with being in a mixed income community. Seems the developer forgot that (until now) if you want these units to move they have to be cheaper than market.
“But, (could have been arrangements with their building financing, not sure) when the units in the real part of old town fell 20%, they only dropped their price by 10%”
They would certainly have had to have renegotiated release prices, and the lender may not have been willing to do so quickly enough.
Is the developer really still in control of the unsold units?
Anon-
Yea, i think last i heard it was in the 20% neighborhood, but i dont know if that included pending sales, and certainly didnt include the flurry (i guess that is a relative term) of recent activity.
Yes, the developer is still in control because the City gave funding to bail him out…makes me wonder what the units are actually costing tax payers.
Another Resident — I appreciate your info. I’m glad some sales are moving. While sticking with the original plan sounds great, if the market rate units are’t moving then those who bought at market rate early essentially are going end up living in CHA/affordable housing units which is not what you bargained for. Rather than the city paying the developer to sit on empty units and lots, it makes sense just to fill them and allow those who paid market to get out if they so choose.
What do you know about the new highrise on Larrabee…I heard it was rental but still some mixed income? I would think it would also impact the demographics.
Local-
To be clear, the City money was money that was already slated for the development, the change was the developer getting it sooner than agreed upon (based on sales volume). So the money would have gone out, only question was when. I remember talking with some people from the City at a meeting when that happened. Their concern was making sure that this mixed income building in particular succeeded. The thought process was that there really isnt another place in Chicago that was CHA land where it was so closed to downtown, lake, gold coast, ect. Their fear was that if they couldnt make mixed income work in this location, how would it ever work in less desirable areas of the city. I think things are gonna sell out in the near future due to finally chopping up the price. A 1600 square foot townhouse, with a garage, 2 bed, 2 bath and a large roof deck for $320k would certainly seem fair enough.
Also, the new midrise is all rental. Just like the west-most midrise on division (512 w division?). Those maintain the same mixed income rules as the rest of the development (dont know for sure if the % are exactly the same or not in each building) where you have 30% CHA, 70% purchase.
ze could mount a cross on the back of his bicycle to keep jenny at bay. If his mother found out he could say it was his wife’s ride.
jenny, you dont like overt christians, bicyclists or peeps in the pjs (remember that clamation?)… who do you like?
I don’t recall Jenny making any statements about Christians just that the cross was creepy. As for hating, I think it is fanatic christians (actually all religious fanatics) who hate non believer not vice versa Take a look at Bible sometime and you will get illuminated.
“If his mother found out he could say it was his wife’s ride.”
lol…good one.
“Take a look at Bible sometime and you will get illuminated.”
or immolated
“also LOL @ the Last Sale Price: $175,000 Last Sale Date: 08/07/2007
ouch!
thats only a 98.3% loss”
Wow, just … wow. At that price, whoever owns might as well just give it away to get the real estates taxes off his/her/its books.
I don’t see how it’s racist to say that people should not get free housing from the government.
I still think it’s fundamentally unfair to give some people a free place to live, while others have to work hard to pay for it. I would rather not work, but I work so I can afford to support myself and own a property.
In other words, people should live where they can afford the rent or property prices.
I agree that the “highest and best use” for the land in this area isnt CHA housing, but I think with the loss of CHA units in this area 20% mixed income units are probably going to be required for any residential uses. I’m looking forward to seeing what happens to this area over the next 20 years.
today i am playing The Dead live at the Fillmore East, across the compound. I have the fire ants as my first defense against Jenny. If that doesn’t work, the dogs, if that fails, lil ze from city of god will take care of things for me. Tomorrow Steely Dan day.
Any type of ants would be enough to keep me away. Ants are terrifying!
Hudson mob..for some reason I don’t think Kevin would last long here, with his: ‘they’re not dangerous just poor you shouldn’t judge them attitude’.
“I don’t see how it’s racist to say that people should not get free housing from the government.”
Kevin is in full on reparations mode: anything you say that might take away economic handouts to those unable to compete in a capitalist meritocratic society is “RACISS!”.
You can never appease people like Kevin because they don’t understand why society is the way it is nor do they seek to they just know they want those handouts.
JP$ — so what is your prediction? I just have my doubts about completely engineered living. Incentives are one thing but when you don’t use land for the “best use” it just doesn’t seem to work out well.
If the city and CHA want to attract people who can pay market rates to make this project work, then the neighborhood needs to have amenities that appeal to middle class (and because this is downtown where everything costs slighly more — parking, taxes, dining, etc… — possibly upper class) such as restuarants, movies, shopping etc.. So far, I see attmepts to decrease poverty but its still really a segregated neighborhood based on income. The newest addition is the proposed community center for the Jesse White tumblers. The center will provide space for the tumblers who largely reside outside of the neighborhood now and a computer lab. These are not amenities that most middle class individuals are looking for (i.e., most have their own computer). Furthermore, the school that serves this neighborhood — Jenner Academy — is poorly performing and not ecnomically mixed (high concentation of low income children). The middle and upper class who live nearby (Montgomery ward building and highrise and the new townhomes on Kingsury/Larrabee) don’t send their kids to this school. So far, the city has just created a neighborhood where two different econmic classes exist but don’t actually commingle. The point of mixed income neighborhoods is to create a community, particularly one that offers more positive experiences for low income children…how does this happen when neighbors shop, eat and educate their children in different places?
The Alderman should work to increase small businesses here, add amenities that appeal to all income levels (movie theater, less expensive resturants (local pub, Chipotle/Cosi/Roti,) and turn the community center into something larger like a nice gym, workout facilities and a pool (there is not great pool nearby so this might attract middle/upper income families) that allows for children with all SES backgrounds to play together. Also, the City should do something about the low performance of Jenner (change zoning to include more middle class, another selective enrollment school, magnet school within the school, gifted program, etc…).
I just don’t see how mixed income housing could work. It degrades property values too much for some people to get condos for free, while others have to pay.
I might feel differently if public housing was for people who were down on their luck who would stay for maybe year or at most two, until they could get back on their feet. Having people live in public housing for generations just doesn’t work.
Let the free market sort things out. Poor people can live in low priced areas and middle class can live in middle class areas and the rich can live in rich areas.
Local-
Totally agree with everything you said. The neighborhood i grew up in VA was mixed income. There had been developments like this for a while there (and much of the greater DC area) that worked well. It seemed that they always took 10 years or so to ‘mature’ and (in my opinion) much of that had to do with kids. Most (all?) of the people who bought in the area did not yet have kids, all of the public housing residents did have kids (if not a family, wouldnt have qualified).
When we moved here we knew that our kids would be going to school where my wife works, so it wasnt really in our decision criteria. But that school is a total mess. Although there is word that their will be a redistricting in the near future for Jenner, Ogden, Franklin and one other i cant recall, and perhaps a closure based on how close all those schools are to each other and the shrinking school age population as a result of Cabrini resident relocation. With Ogden and Jenner being very new it would be pretty surprising for them to close.
…the school i meant was a total mess is Jenner, not the one where my wife works!
“Poor people can live in low priced areas and middle class can live in middle class areas and the rich can live in rich areas.”
This is Chicago. Like most major cities it attracts people like Kevin who do not share your ideology. If society were left to the Kevin’s of the world we’d be Zimbabwe.
Jenny-
You know, if i was building a city from scratch, i would likely agree with you about people living where they can afford. However, given some of the legacy issues, not sure it is a realistic option to take 15k poor people (population of Cabrini at its peak) and try to ship them off to some where else. When people finally opened their eyes and saw that concentrated, isolated poverty pockets caused more problems than they solved. Going back to the one I grew up in, I dont know any of the kids i grew up with in mixed income that moved back into them. They had the opportunity to go to a much better school than they otherwise would have, went to college and moved on with their life sans public assistance. This is pretty opposite from the traditional ghetto perpetual cycle of poverty. The reason i am in favor of this mold is that it puts people in a better position to break the cycle and reduce long term costs of public assistance.
This is also (kinda like local was saying) where i think chicgo is dropping the ball. If you are building a mixed income community you need to ensure that the ‘assisted’ population has access to services to help the kids move up. The generation of 15+ (my numbers) year olds is a sunk cost, i see little opportunity to do anything for someone that age. However, if you get the young kids into better schools (and with better parents, because really the only parents that live in mixed income communities are the ones who cared enough and were sufficiently qualified to get in) with better parent networks. But, talking to some of my neighbors who have had multiple kids go through Jenner, they just rave about the changes (i guess its all relative).
My question is what happens to the population that doesnt qualify for mixed income. If you dont have a job, have a drug history, have a police history or have family members that do, you dont qualify. I have to wonder how nasty some of these neighborhoods (seems like all on the south side) are going to fall apart when it is nothing but the worst folks who couldnt qualify to live anywhere else. Not that i can think of anything we should do- im all for helping those who are trying to do right by their family, but if you dont care, neither do i– just sucks punishing kids of people who dont care
Another Resident — what have you heard about the rezoning? I don’t live in Park of Old Town but do live near there in River North and have a vested interest in seeing the mixed income model actually succeed. I, like you, want it to be the stepping stone to financial independence for the next generation. I grew up in public school in a mixed income area and though I could afford to live pretty much anywhere in the city or suburbs, I choose to live in a mixed income area precisely so my child doesn’t only have rich friends because the “rich should live with the rich.”
I would take my child to a community pool, subsidize child classes (art, music, etc…) at a community center for lower income children, etc.. if we could get the Alderman to build it. At this point, I would not send my child to Jenner, however. If things don’t improve we will have to go private though I would much prefer to have area rezoned so that Ogden and Jenner (likely two buildings remaining since they are new) in such a way to be neighborhood schools (seems as though Jenner draws from outside the neighborhood now) with a magnet, gifted school…or something successful. Its seems as though Ogden is succeeding but Jenner is not.
Local-
To be clear this is just what i get from some of my wifes friends who are teachers and administrators… so please take it with a grain of salt. It seems logical to me, but could be a load of crap. What they were saying is that (they think it would be franklin closing) Ogdens border would move east, closer to ogden, but also move west in the areas between north and division (think where franklin is now) and Jenners border would move west into the traditional areas of old town. Jenners would also move further south to encompass more of the wealthier areas south of it.
Like i said, seems logical given the way that populations have shifted (and the thousands of cabrini kids that are no longer in the area), but could also be a totally baseless rumor that they are passing on.
Another Resident, don’t people who pay market rate feel resentful? I know I would feel resentful.
This is also going to sound mean, but if have taught my kid to read at 3 and if a large percentage of kids in the local public school don’t even know the alphabet by kindergarten, I’m likely going to opt for a private school.
It also seems like it only takes one or two bad residents to ruin a building. One of my coworkers bought a condo in Rogers Park. Then, a former drug user relapsed and he started dealing and now his condo is worth next to nothing.
There are some great deals on condos and townhomes in this area currently, IMO. I don’t think this unit or the other recent comp in this building are among them.
“If they go away, then this area will get better for this new developement…though I wouldn’t buy here. Its an isolated building.”
If this happens I could see some great RE deals currently in the area.
Mixed income folks don’t really scare me as the city keeps them on a very short leash and they are very motivated to keep their qualification status.
Public housing residents, on the other hand, have no similar incentive for good behavior and I would not like to live near them.
“This is also going to sound mean, but if have taught my kid to read at 3 and if a large percentage of kids in the local public school don’t even know the alphabet by kindergarten, I’m likely going to opt for a private school.”
Aren’t you one of the “probably never having kids” cohort?
What if your purely hypothetical kid just doesn’t get it at 3–some (many) don’t–would you then let the kid go to public school with the “even less prepared”?
You don’t need to rationalize your demonstrated pro-private-school feelings with the purely hypothetical achievements of your purely hypothetical child. It’s fine to say you’d send your hypothetical kids to private school–but if you hypothetically couldn’t afford to send lil Balthazar (or couldn’t get him in) to Private School X (I’m assuming that Catholic is a no-go), would you just move to the ‘burbs?
“It also seems like it only takes one or two bad residents to ruin a building. One of my coworkers bought a condo in Rogers Park. Then, a former drug user relapsed and he started dealing and now his condo is worth next to nothing.”
Different recourse against the pub housing residents v. the drug dealing *OWNER*. Get the pub housing folks busted for dealing, they won’t be able to move back in after jail, the owner would need to be subjected to civil forfeiture.
Jenny-
I can only speak to what my wife and I feel on this one. I dont really pay to much attention to what my neighbors have/spend/do regardless of where i have lived. To me, i moved here because i liked the house, liked that i was still a 10 min bike ride to work and so close to many other things i likes. I also liked the fact that it was so much cheaper then similar places that met the same criteria. I knew it was cheaper because it was mixed income, but that didnt bother me enough to chase me away.
Now, i only know three of my neighbors who are CHA residents and frankly when i see the hours that the primary worker (all three are 2 parent homes) in the house puts in, it makes me grateful that i took advantage of my educational opportunities to work fewer hours for a much higher wage and a much less physical toll on my body.
While i know dollars wise they pay a lot less, as far as % of our income i know that i pay a much smaller portion of my pay towards this home than they do. They are required to pay, (i believe) 30% of their income for their rent. I know there are likely to be those that had income under the table and cheat the system, I also know that the 3 families i have gotten to know are a small sample. But, when i see those three having someone working hard and trying to set their kids up for better things (two of the familes have their oldest in college now, cant image they are headed to public housing), it doesnt bother me that much that i pay more than them.
Of course, i have the benefit of the three families on my block being solid families doing the right thing that happen to be in low paying jobs. I imagine my feelings would be different if they were up at hours partying in front of my house cussing up a storm and selling drugs on my porch. It just has been my experience that those trouble families dont get into the program.
“Mixed income folks don’t really scare me as the city keeps them on a very short leash and they are very motivated to keep their qualification status. ”
Bob-
Totally agree, one of the neighbors kids who is a junior/senior in HS was telling me how much easier it is to fight off peer pressure than it was for his older brother. He was saying that his brother always had to use sports as his excuse why he could go out and get into whatever trouble was being pushed. The younger one was saying how easy it is to get out of peer pressure situations when your response can be “are you kidding me, you know if i get caught doing that my mom loses her house and no longer qualifies for mixed income communities until she puts me out.”
We have only had two families kicked on in the last 2 years. It pleases me that people behave well enough that it is not an issue, but im also glad to see that the rules have some teeth and folks know people are not joking about “we will kick you out”
Jenny,
Why would you feel resentful if you don’t pay market price? People don’t all start from the same spot. You may have gone to a better school, or your parents may have paid for college, or you married into money, or received money from your parents, or were born to wealthy parents, or were born with above average intelligence. I don’t resent you for that. But I think society should place a burden on those to whom much has been given to help those who came from shitty homes, went to shitty schools, had mothers who were smoking crack or drinking while pregnant, or grew up in violent, disenfranchised areas.
I’m not saying that one’s lot in life is completely dictated by genetics and upbringing (i.e., solely things out of that person’s control), but ignoring the fact that you may not have earned all you have solely through hard work seems to be a favorite pastime of privileged white people.
Another resident, it sounds like they are doing it the right way where you live.
What happens when a resident wants to move? Do they own the places or are they still rentals?
I’m still not sure if I could get over the fact that other people were getting a reduced rate for something I had to pay market value on, but that’s just me.
Nat.. It’s simply called taking responsibility and recognizing actions will have consequences. Some people rightly recognize that they can not even get by that easily themselves, why must they pick up the load for someone who irresponsibly drops 4 kids into this world? Life provides wonderful opportunity but rarely ever guarantees. Made sense to me by the age of 8.
“I’m still not sure if I could get over the fact that other people were getting a reduced rate for something I had to pay market value on, but that’s just me.”
You know what pisses me off–discounts for anyone on anything!! Which is why I support an end to Medicare, an end to medical insurance of all types, the outlawing of coupons (*esp* Groupon), free drinks and a flat rate for all municipal and state services of all types, everywhere.
Nat, I don’t expect people who have more money than me or grew up with wealthier parents or are more intelligent, to give me anything.
For instance, I don’t think I will ever have kids and that’s partly because I don’t think I can afford kids. I don’t expect the government or anyone else to help pay for my theoretical kids.
I chose a low stress job for myself. I chose to go to grad school for psychology instead of law school. My ex-boyfriend was in BigLaw. He worked insane hours and was paid accordingly. I don’t see why he should have to give away his money to other people who aren’t willing to work as hard (of course, he was a bleeding hard and didn’t mind giving away his money).
“My ex-boyfriend was … a bleeding hard [sic]”
Did he ride a bike, too?
“Get the pub housing folks busted for dealing, they won’t be able to move back in after jail, the owner would need to be subjected to civil forfeiture.”
It’s my understanding their likely wouldn’t do much jail time (if not an enormous quantity) and they wouldn’t be prohibited from moving back in. Public housing AFAIK does not have any restrictions on criminal records and is lottery based.
Jenny-
The city owns it and they rent it. Just they are paying less rent to the city than would typically be the market rate and what they pay is based on their income. If they wanted to move, they move. Although, i imagine if they are staying in the city that wouldnt come up because i bet they would have to put their name back in the lottery, and who knows how long until it comes back up, if it is even allowed to come back up.
The waiting list has 125k names on it, made up entirely of people who (at least as of the time the filed) meet all the cities criteria for section 8 and mixed income. The waiting list had been closed for over a decade until this spring when they reopened it for a short period. So, to get in you need to win a lottery just to get on the waiting list where you can be for years. Then, for those that meet the more stringent mixed income property rules there will be another sort of lottery (not certain how that works, but i was told that they take names from the top of the waiting list who meet the rules). This lottery is only done when there are new openings based on new construction.
To put it in perspective, when they city is done with the ‘Plan for Transformation’ there will be around 7,500 units in the entire city that are mixed income. So the idea of someone winning the lottery twice would seem quite remote.
“You know what pisses me off–discounts for anyone on anything!! Which is why I support an end to Medicare, an end to medical insurance of all types, the outlawing of coupons (*esp* Groupon), free drinks and a flat rate for all municipal and state services of all types, everywhere.”
I think it’s hilarious the redistributionists always focus on income thresholds when they attempt their social engineering via legislation yet they are too stupid or short-sighted to see that the real and key determiner of wealth is assets.
Nobody ever talks about assets, likely because the really rich don’t want the debate going that way.
Jenny–
I would be concerned if someone bought for less than me and could sell. They could cut their price, still profit, and drive down my comps. I would have less room to cut my price without losing money…this is why mixed income developments where some unit owners pay less (i.e., affordable housing) may not always work (works in an up market but not down). But this can’t happen with respect to CHA units, because the residents don’t own them. As for lower property values in general because there are CHA residents (though the creme of the crop, highly monitored CHA residents), that effect (lower property value), if any, should be taken into account in the market rate purchase price. This is why Another Resident paid less for his townhouse than one of simliar size and quality in the same neighborhood.
I have a friend who lives in Domain Lofts, a few blocks south of there, and the developer originally sold some affordable units (lower price to teachers, cops, etc…) but apparently enough time has passed that those unit owners can sell and pocket any profit. (This was the early affordable housing model where owners could sell and profit. Apparently, it was abused by savy public employee flippers and now the regs have changed.) Most apparently did before the housing bust so nearly all 200 or so units have been bought and sold at market rate, except for 5% that are CHA owned. He says the 5% CHA tenants do not impact the building because its a small % of the building (a couple of units), management monitors them closely, and they tend to be the units that were not upgraded and in dark corners of the builidng (i.e., the units the developer would have a hard time selling). He said most of the CHA tenants are polite and elderly…far better neighbors then many of the young, wealthy trust fund babies with phat lofts. This CHA demongraph, to me, seems deserving of public housing since when they were growing up they were forced to “sit in the back of the bus” and attend inferior segregated schools.
“Apparently, it was abused by savy public employee flippers and now the regs have changed.”
The substitute teacher who bilked 400k in RE gains from doing this repeatedly is my hero–all completely legal.
Jenny,
Are you implying that poor people are willing to work hard?
Jenny, you have some good points, but there is a big difference between someone who actually “chooses” to go study what she/he likes because they don’t want stress with kids that had no parental support and grow up in a hood with no role models and junky parents. I am definitely a softie and feel bad for unprivileged people, but from just selfish point I view too I believe some level of aid is necessary to make the society run smoothly. When people have nothing, they become radicalized and violent which won’t do any one any good after all.
Also one cannot deny the centuries of discrimination that some folks have been subject to and then suddenly say we are all equal so you guys deserve no handicap.
“Also one cannot deny the centuries of discrimination that some folks have been subject to ”
I would gladly suffer centuries of discrimination so long as I could live for centuries. As far as my understanding very few people even live to the one century mark.
“suddenly say we are all equal so you guys deserve no handicap.”
We aren’t equal nor should policy makers be in the business of trying to equalize outcomes.
Not sure where to post this, but I remember G commenting on it:
“Realty trade group overreported Chicago home prices”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-realty-trade-group-overreported-chicago-home-prices-20110711,0,7597129.story
“This CHA demongraph”
Heh!
Bob — that teacher example is hilarious. Didn’t know that was the reason for the change.
Back to the condos in the post — this is why these units are probably hard to sell. Next to public housing with less of a price offset than Park Side of Old Town and no management company to handle problems with residents. This is why I don’t understand why the building was built here. The units seem nice but would be better on Larabee (next to the new white buildings) where the empty WIC building is. This parcel is owned by a developer who is probably waiting for the market to improve. This developer of the building in this post would have done better building it on Larrabee. Though it would still be next to the rowhomes, except for the one package store, this street has pretty much gentrified –coffeehouse, clothing store, and nail salon.
“Didn’t know that was the reason for the change. ”
That was the biggest one. Others made quite a bit of coin doing that as well and its still going on.
Just ask Gutierrez’s daughter:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/2299299-418/ocasio-affordable-figueroa-gutierrez-housing.html
Miumiu likes these government programs because she has faith in the effectiveness and good intentions of government and believes unintended consequences and windfalls like this don’t exist.
Bob – no one is trying to equalize outcomes. I would just prefer to live in a country where everyone is assured a roof over their head, food on their plate, and basic health care, even if I have to pay extra taxes to make that happen.
my child is born to parents with good standard of living who care for him and his education, if he cannot get good enough test scores, he does not deserve to go to top schools. this is fair and square. i however, would be glad to help pay for a talented kid from a rough background who shows promise. i even feel more inclined to pay for poor little kids who don’t get a decent meal let alone an education.
“You know what pisses me off–discounts for anyone on anything!! Which is why I support an end to Medicare, an end to medical insurance of all types, the outlawing of coupons (*esp* Groupon), free drinks and a flat rate for all municipal and state services of all types, everywhere.”
my vote for the funniest post all day!!!!!!!!!!!
and WTF for tuesday lady discounts at the carwash thats straight up BS!
There are places that impose a wealth tax on assets. Then property tax on your home, luxury taxes on big ticket buys. Oh dey git ya comin n goin.
Private property should be left alone. Freaking communists here!
Because some men beat their wife, the whole institution of marriage cannot be questioned (it can be questioned on other grounds though…lol). Because government has done poor job in managing things, it does not mean all public aid should be abandoned. I agree that wasteful and ineffective spending should be stopped but I do absolutely believe in need for social welfare which is such a taboo world for some people.
Some times good people fall into hard times and need help, heck even bad people’s kids had no fault and deserve help even if their parents get aid they might not perfectly manage. No system is ever perfect.
“Bob – no one is trying to equalize outcomes. I would just prefer to live in a country where everyone is assured a roof over their head, food on their plate, and basic health care, even if I have to pay extra taxes to make that happen.”
Yes Chicago government indeed is. When a public employee who earns X wages can qualify to live in the same luxury unit of someone who gets paid much more it’s outcome equalization.
I don’t even need to broach the CHA thing as was noted above it isn’t a large number of units I can look at teachers/firefighters/police officers living next door to BigLaw attorneys because enough politicians and voters think thats the way things should work in this city and those castes are part of the machine so should be rewarded.
Why go for a higher paying job when if you are a cop making 55k/year you can buy a 300k unit with taxpayer assistance?
“Why go for a higher paying job when if you are a cop making 55k/year you can buy a 300k unit with taxpayer assistance?”
This is actually one of my thoughts for the mixed income units as well. These units and location are nice, why would people ever want to leave. I guess the only answer is what we were saying above re: kids. If you get their kids to never go into public housing you have probably saved a huge chunk of cash even if their parents stay there for life.
“Why go for a higher paying job when if you are a cop making 55k/year you can buy a 300k unit with taxpayer assistance?”
Why is BIGLAW paid better than a cop…BIGLAW lawyers don’t give more to society than a cop. They do deserve extra pay for the extra hellish hours. but are they really providing something better to society…better than teachers? As a BIGLAW, big money attorney, I can emphatically say NO. Teachers, good ones, are honestly more valuable than most BIGLAW lawyers. The problem isn’t subsidizing the cops and teachers. The problem is our nation’s misplaced priorities….we used to value hard work and committment to community. Now, the Kim Kardashians of the world and entitled BIGLAW lawyers are more highly valued…ugh.
G’s been on that for a while; good its been cleared up. now on to bigger policy debacles!
”
#
chukdotcom on July 11th, 2011 at 3:24 pm
Not sure where to post this, but I remember G commenting on it:
“Realty trade group overreported Chicago home prices”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-realty-trade-group-overreported-chicago-home-prices-20110711,0,7597129.story
“
I’m not the least bit surprised that the IAR fabricated this data. Why isn’t anyone commenting on this article? This is big news and really exposes the IAR as frauds.
People are robably not commenting on it because its not that shocking…I’m not surprised at all. Its like asking Goldman whether to buy mortgaged backed securities…the answer is driven by their self-intrested.
If you want accurate info, get a truly independent source.
Actually, there isn’t much conspiracy here — they must have just f’d up the data. If they were intentionally trying to mislead there would be a half-truth somewhat explainable twist (like investment banks create league tables for underwriting). Once exposed there would be a less embarassing out.
How do you mess up the data? It’s pretty simple math. Come on. I think this data should be audited or tested in some way by a 3rd party.
I agree it is pretty hard to mess up this.
“Why is BIGLAW paid better than a cop…BIGLAW lawyers don’t give more to society than a cop. They do deserve extra pay for the extra hellish hours. but are they really providing something better to society…better than teachers? As a BIGLAW, big money attorney, I can emphatically say NO. Teachers, good ones, are honestly more valuable than most BIGLAW lawyers”
This is all your opinion. And you obviously believe that you are so smart that your opinion regarding values to society is somehow superior to arms length economic transactions between two third parties?
And I can tell from your writing style you likely aren’t a biglaw or even an attorney at all. However, in the chance that this isn’t the case: nobody is stopping you from tithing wages you received that you feel are excessive (obviously anything above 55k) to charities of your choice. But I doubt you’d be buying teachers groceries any time soon.
Local, all I can say is thank you!
“Why is BIGLAW paid better than a cop…BIGLAW lawyers don’t give more to society than a cop. They do deserve extra pay for the extra hellish hours. but are they really providing something better to society…better than teachers? As a BIGLAW, big money attorney, I can emphatically say NO. Teachers, good ones, are honestly more valuable than most BIGLAW lawyers. The problem isn’t subsidizing the cops and teachers. The problem is our nation’s misplaced priorities….we used to value hard work and committment to community. Now, the Kim Kardashians of the world and entitled BIGLAW lawyers are more highly valued…ugh.”
“I agree it is pretty hard to mess up this.”
No it’s not. They’re probably paying some jr. analyst/intern $11/hour to do this task and this is likely one of many tasks. Add to the fact that if they can complicate the process in some way and get to the numbers they want, it’s plausible deniability.
I have seen big operations run before ($100MM+) where the back office is so short on resources things like this could very well happen accidentally.
A sales organization like the IAR it could really go either way: intentional deception to promote excess sales/positive consumer sentiment or outright incompetence. Its tough to pick between those two when we’re talking about the IAR.
“we used to value hard work and committment to community”
I fail to see how this is at all related to the city attempting to equalize outcomes as it pertains to subsidized housing. And _real biglaw lawyers_ reviewing _real documents_ know how to spell commitment. I know as a client I’d value that.
roflmao.. IAR….Intentionally try to mislead…. I don’t even know what to say next.
why is biglaw paid more than a cop.
I agree. Pay the cops more. Then the lawyers will tets higher and will become cops, and the cops will have to become lawyers.
Reminds me when i was 4 and said i wanted to be a fireman. Mom grabbed my ear and answered your question for me right then.
“Then the lawyers will tets higher and will become cops, and the cops will have to become lawyers.”
Is this a good thing in your opinion Ze? Maybe that is why scandinavian countries work so much better. People choose professions they actually like and excel in. I have been shocked by lack of concern doctors in this country have for their patients, guess because many of them (of course not all) chose the profession to make mummy happy and make big bucks. It is actually pretty sad.
“why is biglaw paid more than a cop.
I agree. Pay the cops more.”
This is the way-of-thought in Singapore—-public servants are paid on par with, or better than, the private sector (something that would never fly in Murrrica). Well-paid civil servant positions attract a better credentialed workforce who work harder and are less tolerant of corruption.
Don’t let facts get in the way of your political opinions, i don’t comment often–
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm
There are lots of people out there who are willing to be cops and take a relatively low salary for the job. Let the market govern the wages.
Teachers actually make a decent amount of money when you consider how much time they get off. Again, you find lots of people who are willing to be teachers at the current pay levels. My father started out as a teacher because he wanted lots of free time to work on his hobbies. It worked out well for him.
I think big law firms pay ridiculously high salaries, but they also require more work than many other jobs. Generally, neither cops or teachers work 75 hour work weeks unless they so choose. I would much rather be a teacher than a lawyer. (Although, I would rather be a lawyer than a police officer since I’m a lazy wimp.)
It’s not only about who is *willing* to put in BIGLAW hours vs. a cop’s hours. Who is *capable* is a much larger contributor, although those distinctions are not mutually exclusive. People capable/willing to be good BIGLAW attorneys are far more scarce than people capable/willing to be good cops – or teachers for that matter. They earn more money because they are far more rare, like it or not. Is it “fair” that a diamond is worth more an agate?
Besides, truly excellent cops and teachers should make excellent money. Crappy ones should make crappy money or, better yet, be out of a job. That describes a great many of both of those professions.
mm.. Chi dad said it all too perfectly. I think people, in the private sector, pretty much get paid what they deserve.
Big law gets paid the way it does cause the fuckers bill big corp the way they do and they need big resumes to land the big corp. I saw a 20 million dollar 6 month bill for some shit i was in the middle of. It’s a whole diff game.
As for doctors. Mm.. My wife says the same. I could not imagine the personal seperation i myself would have to place as a defense mechanism in order to walk 20 ft through a burn center. Get me fixed, get me out, job well done.