Contemporaine 3-Bedroom Short Sale Is 17% Off the 2005 Price: 201 W. Grand in River North
This 3-bedroom unit in the award winning Contemporaine at 201 W. Grand in River North has been on and off the market since April 2008.
In that time, it has been reduced $336,000.
It is now listed as a short sale at $186,000 under the 2005 purchase price.
The 2221 square foot unit has floor to ceiling windows, hardwood floors throughout and concrete ceilings.
There are 3 balconies and the unit has south, west and north exposures.
It has a modern kitchen with Subzero, Viking and Miele appliances and a huge island with granite counter tops.
The bathrooms are travertine and limestone.
Is this a deal for the square footage and location?
Salvatore Manzella at @Properties has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #803: 3 bedrooms, 3 baths, 2221 square feet, 2 car tandem parking included
- Sold in February 2004 for $989,500
- Sold in April 2005 for $1.085 million
- Originally listed in April 2008 at $1.235 million
- Reduced
- Withdrawn in June 2010 at $1.15 million
- Lis pendens foreclosure filed in January 2011
- Currently listed as a “short sale” for $899,000
- Assessments of $982 a month (includes cable)
- Taxes of $12,780
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 15×17
- Bedroom #2: 11×13
- Bedroom #3: 12×12
“American Institute of Architect’s Award Winner!”
Shouldn’t foreclosure properties have their awards stripped from them?
I know that they were going for the “loft” look, but those ceilings are so frickin ugly and distracting. Even at 899k, I can’t imagine anyone interested at all – the while the condo (minus the ceilings) isn’t that bad, the location isn’t that great. I could see this going for that much if it was right off of michigan – but in it’s current location, I say “no way”.
West view = looking right at the Brown Line tracks and getting the noise from them? I think so here.
Why ss? The design holds true, regardless of whether the owner can pay for it. This is an awesome building if you like contemporary concrete structures in a great location. The penthouse has a japaneese garden and overall building has a handful of tenants (good or bad). Need that interior designer broad from wall street to pick out some art and you are set!
Rarely units are for sale in this building from what I recall.
I can see why some would like the building but I too think it is a horrible location and the ceilings as stated are challenging. I just don’t understand over 400 per square foot and can see it dropping some: the fewer number of units may be a plus factor if they are not on the market often but I suspect that will change too. Perhaps 750-800K.
Agreed the ceilings are distracting. What’s the verdict on stainless steel bowls in the bathrooms? I think I like it, although I’m torn between liking them and having that one bathroom remind me of a doctor’s exam room.
concrete ceilings are so over. However, for about 10K, the entire unit’s ceilings can be skim coated or for more, drywalled.
“I know that they were going for the “loft” look, but those ceilings are so frickin ugly and distracting.”
600 N. Fairbanks has both concrete walls AND ceilings and some units sell for well over $1 million (and the building continues to be fairly popular.) So the concrete doesn’t seem to hurt those sales.
Its a good location imo unless u are not social and dread the patry down hubbard while hating pizza and fine dining….to each their own though
““American Institute of Architect’s Award Winner!”
Shouldn’t foreclosure properties have their awards stripped from them?”
Since when should architects be responsible for stupid home owners who have 4th grade finance skills? it’s bad enough toyota has to perform recalls because the fat guy driving the car cant move his feet fast enough.
I once had a unit with concrete ceilings…I covered them with drywall for 15K (a little labor intensive if you get someone good b/c you really want them to look level).
I totally disagree with Clio. The fact that its “not right off Michigan” will not bother many buyers. Those of us who actually LIVE in Chicago, not just weekend here, actually like to be closer to the loop (much better commute from here), art gallaries and restuarants. This is just as close too many of the great resturants (MK, Crofton on Wells, etc…). Its a much more real live than on Michigan with all of the tourist and wannabe Chicagoans who just come in to shop and dine on the weekend.
agreed.
“concrete ceilings are so over. However, for about 10K, the entire unit’s ceilings can be skim coated or for more, drywalled.”
what, no complaints about how the fridge and oven are jammed up next to eachother?
What is wrong with the location? 1 block to Binny’s, 3 blocks to MM (brown line) 4 blocks to red line 1 block to Lasalle Bus (ug, but still…) Easy expy access for those non loopers. near eastbank. If you bike a straight shot down into the loop on Wells.
Humm, If I had a million dollars…
Staging on this is horrific. It screams: Zack Morris grew up and became a bankruptcy lawyer.
I would be fine with the stainless sinks in the bathrooms if they didn’t remind me so much of airplane bathroom sinks. Way too small for that much countertop.
A-moo: woah – I just had a breakfast meeting and Saved from the Bell was playing on a TV in the background. Spooky
“So the concrete doesn’t seem to hurt those sales”
wouldnt you want concrete walls and ceilings for noise insulation?
“Staging on this is horrific. It screams: Zack Morris grew up and became a bankruptcy lawyer”
[Groove stands and starts a clow clap]
Wicker: I’m dying to know what kind of meeting takes place with MeTV as din.
I had a weird karass moment with Reading Rainbow a few weeks ago. It was….unsettling. Much like the sofas in this condo.
If this were in the sloop I’d be very interested. The concrete ceiling sucks, but no big deal to fix that up.
A-moo: The meeting is a standing team breakfast meeting to get us out of the office for an hour on Fridays. We just hit local sit down restaurants in the loop and thus this one had TBS on in the background.
“I think I like it, although I’m torn between liking them and having that one bathroom remind me of a doctor’s exam room.”
Don’t do it! And if you do, only do it in a bathroom that is not used often. Had them in my old condo in the master bath….2 of them….toothpaste was a killer. And you would have to clean them about 3 times before they actually looked good.
The location of this unit is great. Close to some good restaurants and close enough to Michigan Ave…. but not too close. One of the few mid rise condo buildings I would even remotely consider.
Probably my favorite residential building in Chicago. But I wouldn’t want to live there. Location is great if your main priorities are being close to work. But you know, I spend enough time at work that I’d rather live a little further away. Nice to look at though. I’m also curious about the retail space downstairs. Is that owned by the building or is it owned separately? It seems to struggle holding a tenant and I wonder who takes the hit for that.
We’ve got two stainless vessel sinks in our master bath. Toothpaste only makes it look nasty if you don’t rinse it down.
Who just spits in the sink and doesn’t rinse? Yuck.
“alanon on March 25th, 2011 at 8:55 am
Probably my favorite residential building in Chicago. But I wouldn’t want to live there. Location is great if your main priorities are being close to work. But you know, I spend enough time at work that I’d rather live a little further away. Nice to look at though. I’m also curious about the retail space downstairs. Is that owned by the building or is it owned separately? It seems to struggle holding a tenant and I wonder who takes the hit for that.”
I’m 99% sure it’s a separate PIN held by the original developer or sold separately. It wouldn’t be owned by the HOA.
This is one of the most amazing buildings in the city – bar none. It’s unique and just brings something different to boring cookie-cutter high-rises. I’d rather live here than Dump Tower (Trump) any day. The asst are a little out of control and the ceiling needs to be covered but over all amazing. My favorite multi-unit buildings up there with Case Study (by Studio Dwell) and 600 N Fairbanks.
I think that this will be pretty appealing to someone at somewhere in the high $800s or even above asking. There are probably not many building amenities and you’re paying a lot of assessments for not a whole lot more than the common space – no doorman, right? However, the location is awesome and the buildout is very nice. I’m sure that not everyone likes the concrete ceilings but there are enough people who do, or who can get past them or plan to change them.
What award did this building win “Design a building that looks worse and costs less than the CHA high rise projects, and fool your high end buyers into thinking it is artsy”?
I don’t get it, seriously what do people see in this building?
“And you would have to clean them about 3 times before they actually looked good.”
Barkeeper’s Friend. But if you let it go too long, it is a bear to clean.
“what, no complaints about how the fridge and oven are jammed up next to eachother?”
Didn’t get to it until now–WTF?–do they not teach that in architecture school?
“ChiBuilder on March 25th, 2011 at 9:26 am
What award did this building win “Design a building that looks worse and costs less than the CHA high rise projects, and fool your high end buyers into thinking it is artsy”?
I don’t get it, seriously what do people see in this building?”
Some people like contemporary architecture, and some people like Colonials and Victorians.
For me, the former, and certainly NOT the latter.
You don’t have to love this building (and it’s ridiculous concrete ceilings) to realize it’s definitely not a “horrible” location, and it’s a considred a step above the average Chicago $300 psf condo hi-rise building.
So many haters on this building… y’all are crazy
Location = awesome, seriously how can you complain about the location of this property? It is nearly perfect in terms of conveince to everything
finishes = nice (can easily make concrete ceiling white and flat, maybe even popcorn for you michigan ave. types)
“If this were in the sloop I’d be very interested. The concrete ceiling sucks, but no big deal to fix that up.”
Really? What would be the advantages of living in the South Loop over River North. I don’t mean to rag on the South Loop, but my strong preference would be for River North between the two.
“wouldnt you want concrete walls and ceilings for noise insulation?”
I would certainly think so; for me, that’s a HUGE plus, as long as it’s completely concrete between the units side-to-side; no dry-wall only at any point.
As a soon-to-be first-time buyer, the sound insulation between units is one of the top considerations for me; I really need to get around to starting to research everything I need to know regaurding how to evaluate whether a unit/building has sufficient sound insulation.
“What award did this building win “Design a building that looks worse and costs less than the CHA high rise projects, and fool your high end buyers into thinking it is artsy”?”
Your tastes may differ, and nothing wrong with that, but comparing this masterpiece to CHA just makes you look like an ass.
“American Institute of Architect’s Award Winner!”
This place looks ok but nothing special about it. The AIA has some low standards to award this building. I mean except in US where still most kitchens are decorated amish style, rest of the world, Asia, Europe and even South American new buildings all have modern interiors.
I don’t like the ceiling in this one and neither did I like 600 N. Fairbank.
“Location = awesome, seriously how can you complain about the location of this property? It is nearly perfect in terms of conveince to everything”
Agree . . . kind of (it’s not close to the lake). My main issue would be that it’s not close to any “neighborhood.” I think alot of people would not want to live this kind of lifestyle. I love the building, but I personally would not want to live where everything around me (including my ceilings!) is concrete. No trees, no parks, etc. Nor would I want to live where 90% of the foot traffic is from people who don’t live in the area. It seems like a type of “urban” lifestyle that isn’t really natural to Chicago. I.e., the “city of neighborhoods.”
“Really? What would be the advantages of living in the South Loop over River North. I don’t mean to rag on the South Loop, but my strong preference would be for River North between the two.”
Personal preference. I like the absence of offices and tourists in the sloop and don’t care much for all the fancy shops and restaurants. Also need to be right by the lake for exercise.
I am with Bob 2 on that.
You wont see too many tourists around here. It is definitely less popular than other parts or RN and less trafficy as well. Some people like trees, Parks, and streets lines with parked cars, others like more of an urban city walk everywhere feel. Again, to each their own but give credit where credit is due, this building haslocation and a unique feel, cred +1
alanon – not close to the lake? come on, you can walk to the ohio st. beach or lake in 15-20 minutes or hop on the grand bus and be there in 10
as for the concrete jungle, well thats what living in the city is like… you prefer neighborhoods and grass, some people prefer the hustle and bustle of an urban center. different strokes for different folks.
I mean you can walk to just about anything you would want from this location within 15 mins… 15 mins to the loop, 15 mins to the lake, 10 mins to red/brown lines 15 mins to blue line, 10 minutes to EBC, 15 mins to metra, a bazillion restaurants, 10 minute walk to michigan ave, 5 mins to a dog park, 20 mins to millenium park, etc, etc. etc.
and if you need to drive its less than 5 minutes to 90/94 or 10 mins to 290, LSD, I-55, etc.
The ONLY new construction building in Chicago
with real architectural significance.
Hardly james, 510 w erie n 653 kings, the redo of 500 w superior, trump, … just to name a few
I was puzzling over the rather odd dropped ceiling over the kitchen island, but then I realized that the unit above them must have one of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3nVeBMwkGY&feature=player_embedded
Now it all makes sense.
Personal opinion
does NOT qualify good architecture.
Nice looking building, but you’re on the eighth floor above a busy intersection, and the benzine fumes go up until the 10th floor, i.e., you might as well be living at ground level. In quiet residential neighborhoods, it’s fine to be on the ground. In downtown, for your lungs’ sake, keep away from the traffic, and that means going up.
“Your tastes may differ, and nothing wrong with that, but comparing this masterpiece to CHA just makes you look like an ass.”
Haha, yes an ass for sure… I am sure I’m not the first critic in the world to use an absurd comparison. Although comparing it to a CHA project is about as absurd as calling it a masterpiece.
Actually there was a front page article in the Reader comparing early 2000’s condo projects to CHA buildings, if I can find it I will post it.
I will never understand the appeal of silver boxes on top of silver rectangles. There’s not much imagination that goes into manipulating simple shapes. Good design is supposed to challenge the viewer, not look like a bunch of Legos.
“Actually there was a front page article in the Reader comparing early 2000’s condo projects to CHA buildings, if I can find it I will post it.”
I doubt Contemporaine will be in there. I dont recall a CHA building ever enclosing its parking structure with glass (just one of many thoughtful details elevating this above the rest).
So what are your favorite towers?
“Good design is supposed to challenge the viewer, not look like a bunch of Legos.”
Im challenged and legos are awesome.
“Nice looking building, but you’re on the eighth floor above a busy intersection, and the benzine fumes go up until the 10th floor”
Jerry, I live on the 9th floor of a place with 11′ between floors Am I going to die? (serious question)
“I dont recall a CHA building ever enclosing its parking structure with glass ”
CHA buildings ha(d)ve parking structures? Many of them didn’t enclose their *hallways*.
“Im challenged and legos are awesome.”
I’m *not* “challenged” and legos are still awesome.
“CHA buildings ha(d)ve parking structures? Many of them didn’t enclose their *hallways*.”
I wasn’t serious, and I’m only challenged cuz I dont know what that’s supposed to mean.
Speaking of legos go build a sears tower:
http://www.amazon.com/LEGO-Architecture-Sears-Tower-21000/dp/B002IY3616
(does this mean Sears is a bunch of legos looking piece of shit?)
“as for the concrete jungle, well thats what living in the city is like… you prefer neighborhoods and grass, some people prefer the hustle and bustle of an urban center. different strokes for different folks.”
Agreed. My point was more that this kind of living is relatively new to Chicago. I would be interested to see data on who lives in the new, more urban areas of Chicago (river north, west loop, south loop). I wonder if it attracts: (a) people new to the city, and/or (b) people who don’t intend to put down roots in the city.
Anonemoose: you should read Tom Wolfe’s famous book that looks at modern architecture: From Our House to Bauhaus. it’s 30 years old and still 100% relevant.
Let’s create a culture of pessimism. Let’s make Western civilization stink. Let’s create a godless world and drive people to despair. Let’s corrupt society’s values and make life impossible. In short, let’s create hell on earth.
Basically, modern-anything (incl. modern art, atonal music, etc.) is a reaction against the White, Western, European, Christian world, a reaction against harmony, beauty, history etc. by those that despise it, from those who place no demands on artistic ability, and rely upon a network of like-minded and well-placed “Critics” to push and reinforce the nihilism. “award winners” are basically circus dogs, trained to jump through hoops and beg for bones from their masters. The successful contemporary artist/architect needs to be a person devoid of talent and scruples, what he needs is to mix with the right crowd and know whom to cultivate to get “commission” and “positive reviews” for an aesthetic that’s based on children’s “legos”.
It’s the people with the money, the Saatchis and the Guggenheims, who crack the whip and dole out the “awards”.
He who pays the piper, calls the tune. Sadly they convince TONS of lemmings to go along with it without really thinking about it.
Anonemoose: you have good instincts, you should be happy about that
“I will never understand the appeal of silver boxes on top of silver rectangles. There’s not much imagination that goes into manipulating simple shapes. Good design is supposed to challenge the viewer, not look like a bunch of Legos.”
Dan that’s why I reject modernism. When I am forced to look at modern art I like to loudly state “I don’t get it” to which the supposedly informed critics in the room must think I’m a rube. But I don’t give a shit. Jackson Pollack splattering a bunch of paint on a canvas isn’t art to me.
Basically if I can do it in less than one afternoon with little thought or effort put into it I don’t consider it art.
You are what you breathe… window washers use detergent below the 10th floor, but merely wipe off the dust above. I live on the 6th floor so I am not in an idea situation either. All winter I had bronchitis… if you have a million dollars, might as well get into the fresh air.
Dad, great comment. “The Culture of Critique” is a good book.
“I wasn’t serious, and I’m only challenged cuz I dont know what that’s supposed to mean.”
I was joking, using a different meaning. “art should challenge you” is not something I particularly agree with, but whatever.
Dan, Bob, you guys are both missing the point of modern. It’s not a rejection of the past, it’s the forward progression and evolution of art and design. It’s not just a coincidence that shortly after the invention of photography, art charged from realistic portrayals of the world around us to abstract concepts and different views of the world, and from that came impressionism, dadaism, pop art and countless other. Yes, some modern art is ‘junk’ I agree, it doesn’t take a master painter to splatter paint upon a canvas, but Pollack was one of the first painters ever in the history of mankind to attempt to do something so bold and he made the natural progression away from the artistic ideas of the past (of which western art was overwhelming was white marble statutes and paintings of scenes from the bible anyways) to ideas and concepts going forward.,
Modern architecture is the same way. Sure, some modern architecture is ugly, anyone on the loyola campus remembers ‘damen’ hall as a prime example of 1960’s forward looking thinking (or most of the madison campus), but think natural progression; from the stuffy victorians came the homey arts and crafts (discussed yesterday) and from that came the midcentry modern home, mass popularized as the 50’s ranch; and from that came the more modern ideas and open floor plans and flowing floor plans that we have come to recognize as common place today. If the progression had never changed we’d all still be living in farm houses with small rooms and no closets on 25×125 lots.
It’s not merely a rejection of western society (which much of which is just a regurgitation of 3000 year old classical ideals anyway) it’s the evolution of the same. I’m so sick of doric and ionic columns and statutes and all that stuffy thinking.
I’ve never been overly impressed by the Sears or the Hancock for that matter. The eye just slides right over them. However, they do represent a ground breaking period in skyscraper design.
Great design and art makes you look at it for more than thirty seconds. It catches your eye and draws you in to look more deeply. This is flash-in-the-pan design which will not age well.
Let me give you something to think about. Everyone raves about the Van Der Rohe buildings on LSD. Next time you’re by them, take a closer look. Everyone has a different idea on how to decorate their windows. So one unit will have blinds, another drapes and yet another shades. This small fact breaks up the clean lines that Van Der Rohe designed for. An anecdote I have heard is that the Seagram’s building in NYC has an edict that the same window treatment is used throughout the building and they can only be set at up, middle or down. Keeps it from looking down at the heel.
As Blair Kamin says, there was a great opportunity missed in River North. A blank canvas was there to develop some awesome buildings but all we got was copycat meh.
Developers wanted to pack as much profit per square foot so creating unique went out the window. The Contemporaine follows that dictum by putting together a bunch of rectangles on top of each other. There is a slight nod to originality with the canopy on top.
As I always say, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.
To make a long story short, the reason we’re stuck with the Contemporaines of the world is because in the battle for American architecture the organic geniuses of Louis Sullivan and Frank Lloyd Wright etc. lost the battle to Gropius and some others degenerates booted out of Germany. He who pays the piper calls the tune, and they wanted the latter over the more beautiful and inspirational. I think we can all agree that a Louis Sullivan is intrinsically more beautiful than a Contemporaine. There’s been no progression, it’s been degression.
I think we’d have been given far more inspirational and interesting buildings over the last century had the Sullivan and Wright aesthetic won out. It never had a chance given who our “patrons” are.
Also modern is a relative term, when Caravaggio used light to show depth in his paintings, some found it blasphemous. If church could have controlled art, science and thought, we would still be in dark ages.
“Basically, modern-anything (incl. modern art, atonal music, etc.) is a reaction against the White, Western, European, Christian world,”
There may be some truth in this. Some.
“a reaction against harmony, beauty, history etc. by those that despise it,”
But this is just sad. Categorically equating “harmony, beauty, history” with the “White, Western, European, Christian world” is arrogant and narrow. And suggesting that the latter is the only place to find the former is just ignorant.
The world changes. People have new ideas. People important ideas from other places. This has been going on forever. Time did not start with the “White, Western, European, Christian world.” In fact, in the grand scheme of things, the “White, Western, European, Christian world” is still a relatively new idea.
You don’t have to like this building, but don’t try to convince yourself that your tastes makes you morally superior to someone that does.
You’re wrong, and you’ve been well-trained. Progression means you stand on the shoulders of those who came before you, you don’t outright reject them wholesale. Modernism is a rejection of the past, given to us by those who hate our past with jealousy and passion.
“It’s not a rejection of the past, it’s the forward progression and evolution of art and design.”
This was the article written in 2003. The cover was interesting, it had a picture of a CHA project next to a picture of Grand Plaza and they looked sadly very similar….
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/stop-the-blandness/Content?oid=910908
Imagine an entire city of sullivan buildings. They tore a lot of them down. For good reason too.
Leave it up to Dan to shit up another thread with his white supremacist bullshit…
So a whole city full of buildings with ornate frilly and froufrou designed buildings, some with ionic columns, other with paisley designed patterns. I imagine some of those back of the pick-up truck contractors building homes on the northwest side. Goofy and foreign looking.
“You’re wrong, and you’ve been well-trained. Progression means you stand on the shoulders of those who came before you, you don’t outright reject them wholesale. “
Excuse my French, but I think it is nicer to say “les gouts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.” But then those Europeans are all degenerates! God bless America who gave art, culture, and freedom to the world…lol
“As I always say, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.”
Hey, here’s a thought–why do developers build bland modernist buildings? Because they’re cheaper to build, so they make more money, which is their whole goal, not to build something iconic.
“Bob 2 (Not Bob) on March 25th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
Speaking of legos go build a sears tower:
http://www.amazon.com/LEGO-Architecture-Sears-Tower-21000/dp/B002IY3616”
I have that Lego Sears Tower sitting right here on my desk. *thumbsup*
Dan – I’ve heard mention of that book before. I’ll check it out.
I’ll admit to preferring pre-war architecture, but good design is good design is good design. I think 333 Wacker is a great piece of modern design. It’s curving front intentionally follows the curve of the river. Almost 30 years old but it still looks fresh.
Again I am with Bob 2.
There is objective beauty in the world. Compare a Greek venus sculpture to Duchamp’s urinal. Get real. Saying there are no objective standards for humanity to observe in life, this is the exact argument the jealous/talentless, Western-destoyer types want to make. Let’s make it all subjective they say, but their tastes the new Western norm? Don’t be so naive.
PS Nobody ever said that Far East Asian, Indian, or Islamic cultures don’t have their beauty or their beautiful art, etc. But we’re talking here specifically about American architecture & art and how it’s gotten to the sad state it has where Contemporaines win “awards”.
But this is just sad. Categorically equating “harmony, beauty, history” with the “White, Western, European, Christian world” is arrogant and narrow. And suggesting that the latter is the only place to find the former is just ignorant.
Not all architecture stands the test of time. The three-flat cinderblock doublewides of today will go the way of the frame worker’s shanty, some of which still dot the city today.
“#anon (tfo) on March 25th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Hey, here’s a thought–why do developers build bland modernist buildings? Because they’re cheaper to build, so they make more money, which is their whole goal, not to build something iconic.”
I don’t know why I’m trying, but . . .
Dan, you seem to fancy yourself a well-read intellectual. If true, branch out a little and explore the other side. Try “Rites of Spring.” Makes a good case that modernism was not reaction to the beauty of the “White, Western, European, Christian world,” but rather a reaction to the violence of that world. You know, World War I, World War II, the holocaust, etc. All those nasty little parts of the “history” that don’t really fit into your idealic account of the past.
Paris has always attracted tourists and been universally appreciated. Lucien Lagrange loves it too!
“So a whole city full of buildings with ornate frilly and froufrou designed buildings, some with ionic columns, other with paisley designed patterns. I imagine some of those back of the pick-up truck contractors building homes on the northwest side. Goofy and foreign looking.”
Dan,
here’s how greek statues REALLY looked
http://io9.com/#!5616498/ultraviolet-light-reveals-how-ancient-greek-statues-really-looked
is this the objective standard youre talking about? Because with those color patterns, I have no problem rejecting that wholesale. Hahahhaa
HD – what do you think the chances are that the McCrapboxes won’t have half the life of those frame shanties?
So it’s all supposed to look like Paris? Now that you’re saying the french is the standard…ergh, I disagree even more.
I’d say the odds are better than 2-1.
“#Anonemoose on March 25th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
HD – what do you think the chances are that the McCrapboxes won’t have half the life of those frame shanties?”
“But this is just sad. Categorically equating “harmony, beauty, history” with the “White, Western, European, Christian world” is arrogant and narrow. And suggesting that the latter is the only place to find the former is just ignorant. ”
Go to hell. You don’t see white apologists holding the same litmus test for those of other cultures who embrace their culture, architecture and art forms. I don’t see losers like you critiquing, say, Indian artists, for using traditional materials and producing art generally accepted to be traditional of that region and them seeing it as superior as arrogant and narrow. Go jump off a bridge you societal HIV.
“Not all architecture stands the test of time. The three-flat cinderblock doublewides of today will go the way of the frame worker’s shanty, some of which still dot the city today. ”
Of course not, but I maintain that the principal reason behnid the saturation of unadorned “modernist” hi-rises is that they offer teh greater profitability.
Just like the three-flat cinderblock double-wides–maximum aggregate sales price for minimum cost.
“I’ve never been overly impressed by the Sears or the Hancock for that matter. The eye just slides right over them. However, they do represent a ground breaking period in skyscraper design.”
anonmoose,
was that engineering or architecture design? (i know i know interchangeable things but you get where i am going)
“Less is more”
And speaking of modernism I do like some modern buildings and dislike others. I think this one looks okay but unsure if it will hold up to the test of time.
It is hard to find a modern pad with a decent floorplan at the entry level. As developers cut all corners to meet the Chicago building code’s official definition of a bedroom. I don’t like the sounds of the living room, including TV & chatter, nor the smell of bacon grease, coming into my “bedroom” because the wall isn’t full height. That’s ridiculous.
“I think we’d have been given far more inspirational and interesting buildings over the last century had the Sullivan and Wright aesthetic won out.”
beauty is in the eye of the beholder. but i am happy there are less sully’s taking up land
Bob, every comment you made was insightful, except for the nasty societal thing you wrote. Why you gotta go off on a tangent and screw it all up? Why bob, it makes no sense
“Less is a bore”
“There is objective beauty in the world. Compare a Greek venus sculpture to Duchamp’s urinal. Get real.”
The urinal is not supposed to be more beautiful than a Greek venus. You’ve clearly missed the point. You should at least make an effort to understand the subject before you start ranting about “the jealous/talentless, Western-destoyer types.”
“Hey, here’s a thought–why do developers build bland modernist buildings? Because they’re cheaper to build, so they make more money, which is their whole goal, not to build something iconic.”
remember the days when lets say a bank would commission a building for themselves.
they would say “give me a box and do it as cheap as you can” they said “i want you to build the most substantial and expensive structure out there, we want people to look at it and say wow that looks elaborate and expensive, they in turn would want to be in business with a bank that would build that”
we lost those days when “quality and aesthetics” would win over “function and low cost”.
shoot now i think function has been dropped for even lower costs.
“Why you gotta go off on a tangent and screw it all up? Why bob, it makes no sense”
Because I’m sick of white people holding other white people to more stringent standards than those from other cultures.
Bob 2 & alanon are allowed to get away with calling Dan’s words in this thread white supremacist, arrogant and narrow because he happens to be white and has a proclivity to “White, Western, European, Christian world”?
I’m pretty sure the standard would be different if he was Asian and proclaimed a liking to “Chinese, Eastern, Asian, Confucian world”.
I’m going to expose these people (Bob 2 & alanon) for what they are: apologists and detrimental to a healthy society.
I guess you and Stephen Colbert see eye to eye.
for the lulz:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/378277/march-21-2011/raging-art-on—simon-de-pury
“Dan that’s why I reject modernism. When I am forced to look at modern art I like to loudly state “I don’t get it” to which the supposedly informed critics in the room must think I’m a rube. But I don’t give a shit. Jackson Pollack splattering a bunch of paint on a canvas isn’t art to me.
Basically if I can do it in less than one afternoon with little thought or effort put into it I don’t consider it art.”
There’s a section of Louis Sullivan artifacts, fragments, ornamental items at the Art Institute just off the main staircase. We can only imagine what could’ve evolved from that (and the talent of Wright). I get bummed about it, every time I see that collection. What could’ve been….we’ll never really know.
I tend to agree with James on this one. Although the lobby is small and non-descript, the building is one of only six in which I would seriously consider owning.
If the unit was on the opposite side of the building, I would snap it up today (at maybe 14K off asking).
All this talk about the concrete ceiling reminds me of a couple projects in Bern. Both were designed by the same architect and constructed with exposed concrete. One was university faculty housing and the other was council (public)housing. Upon returning to the council housing several years later, the architect was shocked to find ashlar stamped tar paper, plastic sheets embossed with bricks, etc, tacked up everywhere. Returning to the faculty housing, he found it in near original condition. I guess the lesson learned is that the appreciation of exposed concrete takes an educated eye.
Groove –
Engineering. It’s man pushing the limits of his world when we achieve things like these buildings.
And for you Sullivan detractors, don’t forget that Frank Lloyd-Wright started out as draftsman working for him. The Charnley-Persky house on Astor is a Sullivan design with Lloyd-Wright contributing.
“I guess the lesson learned is that the appreciation of exposed concrete takes an educated eye.”
Yes because the uneducated eye sees exposed concrete as a crude display of an unfinished product whereas an educated eye sees exposed concrete as a representation of man in a post-modern world? LMAO.
““Less is a bore””
Citing Venturi in the context of anti-modernist, anti-“low art” ranting is funny.
Funny!!
“I’m pretty sure the standard would be different if he was Asian and proclaimed a liking to “Chinese, Eastern, Asian, Confucian world”.”
No, he out right stated that the white christian western view is the only correct one and that everything else is done by degenerates. Dan has had many of his posts deleted where he pretty much said that he hates minorities and homosexuals. It’s not exactly a secret to regulars here that he’s majorly fucked in the head.
“Groove –
Engineering. It’s man pushing the limits of his world when we achieve things like these buildings”
and for that fact i find it beautiful the same beautiful as when i go into macy’s and look up for like 10 minutes each time am in there.
the understanding of how something got there is just as beautiful, even if astheically ugly, as looking at a dali painting
“Go to hell. You don’t see white apologists holding the same litmus test for those of other cultures who embrace their culture, architecture and art forms. I don’t see losers like you critiquing, say, Indian artists, for using traditional materials and producing art generally accepted to be traditional of that region and them seeing it as superior as arrogant and narrow. Go jump off a bridge you societal HIV.”
Bob — I can tell by your tone and the unnecessary insults that I shouldn’t waste my time explaining why your response has the question backwards. But I will point out that the world has already passed you by.
Oh really? Do you think this stinking, rotten, hell-hole world that America has turned into is sustainable for much longer? Deficits as wide and as far as the eye can see. Over $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities that can never be met. Shall I go on?
Our entire current system as we know it, will soon be “the past”. Whatever is going to happen in America over the next 100 years….it won’t be pretty, nobody knows the results, one thing is for sure alanon, your unsustainable world, this world will be gone, changed, a failure, and firmly in “the past”.
” But I will point out that the world has already passed you by.”
“Yes because the uneducated eye sees exposed concrete as a crude display of an unfinished product whereas an educated eye sees exposed concrete as a representation of man in a post-modern world? ”
No, the faculty were worried about being charged for removing stuff from the ceiling when they move out, while the council flat residents are judgment proof.
Also, the faculty probably appreciated the representation of their connection with greater humanity symbolized by the brutalist architecture, while greater humanity saw it as mocking their limited means and sought to escape the brutalism of their lives.
Or something like that.
Bob, you are wrong on that. Do you have any Asian friends? I have heard many Asian people criticizing their parents and others of their culture for being narrow mined on things, say the fact that they are not willing to eat other types of food and appreciate it. Narrow mindedness and feelings of superiority are negative traits and has nothing to do with what ethnic group one comes from.
I would have criticized any one claiming superiority no matter his/her background.
“and for that fact i find it beautiful the same beautiful as when i go into macy’s and look up for like 10 minutes each time am in there.”
I didn’t know you spent time in NYC.
Or did you mean Marshall Fields?
Not a big fan of Amy Chua, huh? Disagree with her thesis of market-dominant minorities? She’s a full blown high-degree supremacist, and widely toasted in America!
“Narrow mindedness and feelings of superiority are negative traits and has nothing to do with what ethnic group one comes from.”
“Oh really? Do you think this stinking, rotten, hell-hole world that America has turned into is sustainable for much longer? Deficits as wide and as far as the eye can see. Over $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities that can never be met. Shall I go on?”
I’m missing the connection between modernism and our current deficit situation. Did the evil modernists take over Congress while I wasn’t looking? Or has Congress been run by your beloved “white Christians” all this time? You are an idiot.
“Oh really? Do you think this stinking, rotten, hell-hole world that America has turned into is sustainable for much longer”
Dan, have you ever spent more than a week outside the US?
I didn’t think so.
Yes, Sonies.
America is becoming like the rest of the world each passing day, that’s precisely the point. Even Ze prefers to be in Brazil-South today, as opposed to Brazil-North, what does that tell us?
Alanon: sorry…maybe I missed your point, maybe you could explain:
“But I will point out that the world has already passed you by.”
If you mean Amy’s recent book. I actually agree with some of her points on having higher expectations from ones kids can help them in the long run.
In fact, I don’t agree with the common viewpoint of American parents that all kids are above average and test results mean so little and …. Any one who has take basic statistic knows that no population can be all above the mean.
That being said, I also find it crazy to push kids so much that they develop complexes because they are constantly pressured beyond their break point.
Dan on Bob raving on race and culture topics , derailing the threads. This is the BS that led me to stop posting here. You sh*theads need to go post on storefront and leave the convos at real-estate, your shtick gets old here.
*stormfront*
Alanon: sorry…maybe I missed your point, maybe you could explain:
“But I will point out that the world has already passed you by.”
————–
If you think that the moral / intellectual / aesthetic apex of culture is found in the “white, European, Christian” tradition, or if you think that any sullying of this tradition is a grave tragedy, then you are in the minority. You are a minority in the world at large, and you are even a minority in Europe and the United States. And you are becoming more of a minority every day. This is a fact. Even if you believe your position is subjectively correct, your position is becoming more and more irrelevant every day. You can hold tight and stay angry, or you can open your mind.
And because I agree with RIZ, and apologize for taking the bait and contributing to the derailment, I’ll wrap it back to the topic at hand:
This building you hate and seem to think represents something terrible with the world . . . There will be more of them, not less.
This post has 108 comments, that’s allot.
some of which are heated comments
This is a testament to what great art can do.
Great art gets a reaction.
“I didn’t know you spent time in NYC.
Or did you mean Marshall Fields?”
ha ha, my bank statement says macy’s enough that my brain has connected the neurons and made the name interchangeable when talking present time. (hmmm, given the tiffany was built long ago maybe brain booted the previous name out?)
well i still havent said willis in a social setting yet so i think i am holding strong 🙂
Take a look at many of the new beautiful buildings going up all over the world, they are modern steel, glass and concrete architecture.
Your christian/roman architecture is great and all but not very cost effective since if done right it would require artisan labor (or some asian slave laborer and then shipped overseas)
There’s a reason for modern architecture, its efficient
James, sorry but that is BS. In fact, real ugly stuff gets even more comments than beautiful art often. Have you been to a wedding where the overweight bride is dressed in some poorly made decollete squeezing their chubby torso? Everyone makes fun of the dress and talks about it. That does not make the bride artsy. It means her choice is ridiculous.
It’s great to see CC has so many architecture critics….
“This is a testament to what great art can do.
Great art gets a reaction”
or great art is so beautiful and all in agreement and move on their gay and merry way.
borderline art stimulates discussion (Ironic and controversial do too)
“There’s a reason for modern architecture, its efficient”
is it? or is it a matter of absense of quality? (see my comment above)
“remember the days when lets say a bank would commission a building for themselves.
they would say “give me a box and do it as cheap as you can” they said “i want you to build the most substantial and expensive structure out there, we want people to look at it and say wow that looks elaborate and expensive, they in turn would want to be in business with a bank that would build that”
and those building i refer to were “modern” at that time. hmm go figure
actually miumiu
no.
But if you look at any ground breaking, game changing
art movement throughout history
the single common denominator is,
that which is truly new and ground breaking,
is usually categorized as avant garde.
That which is Avant Garde typically stirs the emotions of the viewer
while at the same time maing the viewer feel very uncomfortable
because they are viewing something new and unfamiliar and have no frame of reference for. This building qualifies as avant gard.
Modern is a mixed bag for me, Love walking into the Deloitte Building, feels like the whole building floats above the lobby. The Hyatt Center however – bleh. I enjoy the abstract modern in a rorschach sort of way. You see what you want, I especially love how incensed people get about modern stuff. Art elicits a reaction and that is what is interesting.
Sorry James, but there is nothing avant garde about this mediocre building. I am just sorry for the state of architectural design in Chicago is this thing is considered to be avant garde.
miumiu, I would say that if we want to get all SAT here Wedding dress is to Bride as frame is to painting. I don’t think it fits with what you are tyring to say. I don;t find the exterior of this building to be very provoking, I find the pritzker pavillion to be provoking. From some angles I love, others I hate but I keep going back and looking to see what else I can find and it is fascinating. Although, I also play with balls of aluminum foil and am half cat…
@ formerroscoevillager, you are right was just trying to make a point that one cannot claim artwork is quality by mere fact that it caused discussion, but you knew it : )
alanon: “Even if you believe your position is subjectively correct, your position is becoming more and more irrelevant every day.”
He clearly believes it is *subjectively* superior. You meant *objectively*, right?
mm: “Sorry James, but there is nothing avant garde about this mediocre building.”
I dunno if I’d call the building mediocre, but it certainly ain’t avant garde when 30 years of council flats are largely the same.
Unless, of course, James is calling Chicagoans yokels.
“It’s great to see CC has so many architecture critics….”
Sarcastic ellipsis, or … what?
“You meant *objectively*, right?”
Yes.
It’s the Contemporaine that represents the ubiquitous, tired, 90-year old, bland, uninspired, modernist paradigm. It’s time for something new. This building shows zero progression from Gropius, yet it wins awards. How boring can it get? Supporters of this same-old stuff are stuck-in-the-mud, retrograde troglodytes, and are the ones stuck in the past.
I bet it’s LEED, now that makes it truly ground-breaking!
“that which is truly new and ground breaking,
is usually categorized as avant garde.
That which is Avant Garde typically stirs the emotions of the viewer
while at the same time maing the viewer feel very uncomfortable”
Boy we do have quite a few experts on architectural design here…… the building has received a number of awards.
2004 Best of 2004 Award Merit, Residential Midwest Construction Magazine.
2004 Distinguished Building Honor Award, Chicago Chapter American Institute of Architects
2005 National Honor Award, American Institute of Architects
2005 Project of the Year, Residential Architect Magazine
2005 Best New Residential Project, Friends of Downtown
2006 Housing Committee Award, American Institute of Architects
Here is the penthouse if you guys care to check it out:
http://lxtv.com/openhousechicago/video/9364
Miumiu, love it, esp when Buffa cocks her head and asks “Shall we move on to the bedroom?” Penthouse rocks, decks are amazing.
Its not an eyesore, just not something that elicits some kinf od soul-stirring reaction…
Dont think Chicagoans are yokels,
The University of Chicago is NOT an institution for light weights.
Chicago is NOT a cultural epicenter by any means and remains behind the cultural curve by about 10-20 years definitely.
but that’s partly because of the midwest location.
Chicago is known for sports, lawyers, dirty politics, street food and vintage architecture (most of which we tore down)
“Here is the penthouse if you guys care to check it out:”
There’s multiple penthouses. Sabrina posted about the Japanese garden one way back in the day and was actually the first cc post I read and what got me hooked.
It has its own website, fantastic stuff:
http://www.contemporaineph2.com/
“2005 Project of the Year, Residential Architect Magazine”
Reading the story here:
http://www.residentialarchitect.com/design/contemporaine-chicago.aspx
Is mostly everyone dogging every other residential high rise. So it won in no small part for being a different sort of resi highrise. Woohoo.
Also, note that the construction cost was supposedly $150 psf. Obv. not including land cost. The developers did *very* well.
If someone could summarize from these sources what specifically the attributes are that make it an award-winner, that’d be great, thanks!
2004 Best of 2004 Award Merit, Residential Midwest Construction Magazine.
2004 Distinguished Building Honor Award, Chicago Chapter American Institute of Architects
2005 National Honor Award, American Institute of Architects
2005 Project of the Year, Residential Architect Magazine
2005 Best New Residential Project, Friends of Downtown
2006 Housing Committee Award, American Institute of Architects
“If someone could summarize from these sources what specifically the attributes are that make it an award-winner, that’d be great, thanks!”
“2005 Project of the Year, Residential Architect Magazine”
It’s not a value-engineered mccrapbox of a residential highrise.
The building reminds of ones I’ve seen in this book: Un Siecle Passe
http://www.acgparis.com/index.php?id=161
Put aside the horrific staging choices, if this building’s quality of construction is as good as it’s design, this is worth every penny. It goes without saying that in an ideal worl the 2 goes together but unfortunately we don’t live in an ideal world.
And people who believe in the crap notion of the tastes and the colors not being subject to discussion, should go throw themselves into Lake Michigan, for believing in such a none sense.
A good reading for all the tasteless fake Greek and Roman column lovers here: “Architecture of Happiness” by Alain de Botton.
Also, I am noticing that the term contemporary and modern are often misused.
On the lighter side, here’s a lovely quote from a movie I watched recently:
“I’m still trying to sort out what makes good things good, you know? It’s hard isn’t it?”
“The thing is Jenny, you know. Without having to explain why. You got taste. That’s not half the battle, it’s the whole war.”
So, some people just got it, and some don’t and it is not always necessary nor possible why and how it is so…
what is the highest number of comments for a single crib chatter post?
Spinoza, de Botton is always a great read…
whatever……de Botton is crap. He’s exactly of the ilk that’s caused all the problems as outlined in Un Siecle Passe.
interesting, but predictable that wikipedia categorizes him as:
Categories: 1969 births | Living people | Old Dragons | Old Harrovians | Alumni of Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge | Alumni of King’s College London | Harvard University alumni | English writers | English Jews | Jewish writers | Swiss Jews | Swiss philosophers | Swiss expatriates in the United Kingdom | 20th-century Sephardi Jews | 21st-century Sephardi Jews
Spinoza, you are in a good mood dude. Thank you, I have no intention of diving into the lake and the saying means people have their own preferences. It shows your fanaticism if you think just because you prefer a color or a style everyone should agree with you.
lol… I didn’t notice the first time, you are right. She’s definitely tries hard. Love the ways she also puts her hands on her heaps. She reminds me of a 50s Hollywood diva
“Miumiu, love it, esp when Buffa cocks her head and asks “Shall we move on to the bedroom?” Penthouse rocks, decks are amazing.”
there is informed, intrinsic good taste.
there are also personal opinions masquerading as good taste.
Dan, like always, you’re making no sense. The ante- movement, if there is such thing, grossly put, is also driven mainly by the Western/White artists, thinkers, etc. and that’s what made the Western World at the fore front of progress for many centuries, i.e. it’s ability and thirst to explore, self-criticisize and renew itself constantly, and you are denying and rejecting one of the best things about your culture with your pseudo-knowledge gibberish…So, now, do you need applause for knowing about Duchamp’s pissoir?
James, very well said.
“what is the highest number of comments for a single crib chatter post?”
Several hundred. It related to the impact of interest rates on RE valuations, if I’m not mistaken.
Miumiu, I’m not a fanatic, I can assure you but modernism in its ideal form, is not concerned with the problematic of “how do we make ourselves look artsy, or different or avant-garde” This is not about liking or not liking the building. If, for instance, there are issues with the construction quality of this building, you can throw it to the garbage for me. I’m all about good quality criticism and meaningful exchange of ideas but this discussion doesn’t go beyond blue is ugly, red is beautiful type of cliches where terms are confused, like contemporary, new, modern…
And also where there are anti-semite, racist mediocre losers who intervene non-sensically.
Well, I for one am by no means an art critic or claim to be knowledgeable in architecture, but calling this thing avant garde is a bit much. It is not exactly a Zaha Hadid you know : )
I’m not really sure what Dan’s last point means. But I think he finds it “predictable” and “interesting” that something he categorizes as “crap” is categorized by wikipedia as “jewish.”
If I’m reading this right, Sabrina is this not enough to ban this jackass?
“Narrow mindedness and feelings of superiority are negative traits”
No they are not necessarily negative traits–that is entirely your opinion. It might be an opinion shared by many people, but at the end of the day it’s an opinion.
Alanon, what good does that make? He’ll come back under another pseudo. Do, let him speak and embarass himself. This type of trash usually hides behind virtual screens, I say if he has the balls, but we sll know he doesn’t, he should speak with full disclosure of his identity, and most importantly we should let him speak.
alanon, why should she ban him? He is entitled to his opinion. We can debate him or ignore him, but I like the fact that there is true free speech in this country. It is a great thing.
Bob, to me anything that limits making the optimal decision is a negative trait. You are mathematically minded so you should know this that limiting the search space, only limits the best attainable objective. So if someone is narrow minded and rejects things without exploring the, she/he will never manage to do as well in the decision making process as an open minded person. So this is not just an opinion and has logical explanation.
““Narrow mindedness and feelings of superiority are negative traits”
No they are not necessarily negative traits–that is entirely your opinion. It might be an opinion shared by many people, but at the end of the day it’s an opinion.”
Seems they are evolutionarily disadvantaged, so I guess it’s matter of how broad (or narrow) your view of “negative trait” is. To me, an evolutionary disadvantage is a negative trait.
“but I like the fact that there is true free speech in this country. It is a great thing.”
I do too. But that doesn’t mean we have to waste our time with racist morons. This blog isn’t protected by the First Amendment. The same way you can kick a racist moron out of your book club, you can ban a racist moron from posting on your blog.
Should have been more clear: the right to post on this blog is not protected by the First Amendment.
“Alanon, what good does that make? He’ll come back under another pseudo.”
Sabrina could ban by banning his IP address(es), no? He’d have to work around that, which isn’t very difficult, but isn’t nearly as easy as typing a new name and email.
But, he’d just dismiss us all as jews, or lower races, or self-haters, so it would just reinforce his concept of the beaten down, reviled white, christian, man.
“The same way you can kick a racist moron out of your book club, you can ban a racist moron from posting on your blog.”
You can fire a racist moron from his job, too, so long as you’re not the government–even if not done in connection with the job. And even then, the gov’t pretty much can, so long as they fire everyone who spouts anti-whoever bile on the clock (important). Those facts fit into the narrative of the beaten down, reviled white, christian, man
I was once at a dinner and some guy was saying that there are so many Jewish Nobel prize winners because they have hijacked the award…lol… at the end of the day any one with shred of a brain would think this is a stupid statement and in fact, would be impressed by how much impact Jews have had in arts and sciences. I am of the belief that bringing things to public discussion is enlightening, but I hear you that it is annoying how everything ends up becoming a means to attack minorities of various kind. But, on positive note, look how few of cc posters agree with such hateful comments. We all bicker and disagree on many things, but the overwhelming majority is against hateful speech and discrimination.
not sure i agree with you on the feeling of superiority being a negative trait even. Would think it corrolates highly to a type A personality. Athletes, litigating attorneys, traders,etc..
As for art whats so bad appreciating it all, some of the old t dimensional crap at eh louvre looks just as shitty as a blank white canvas at the pompideau. And both ancient and modern share pieces that are equally breathtaking. I give credit to anyine who tries to step out of the box even if much of it is not to my taste.
and yes miumiu it is a nice thing it is not endorsed and being Jewish and having kived in many places I can say it is something I rarely encounter amongst people that make a difference in this world. No shortage of jokes about the jew thing but those go both ways, as you know we control comedy too. Truth is i would have to say lots of people seek us out since they like that they they dont have to demand we work hard as they know our mothers are calling to ensure that. Actually read pew research on religious acceptance, we are doing well.
and dan maybe just maybe i am in Rio because my wife of 17 years is from there. And it is not considered by any brasilsin to be in the north or south. Kinda a mix area, strange how the best looking girls are always mixed. I personally like that euro-moor thing they got goin on in spain. That goalies g’friend, now that was art.
“not sure i agree with you on the feeling of superiority being a negative trait even. Would think it corrolates highly to a type A personality. Athletes, litigating attorneys, traders,etc..”
Well, it’s in the context of the relatively baseless “feeling of superiority” being discussed here. I avoided changing terms, but I’d put it something closer to hubris (yeah yeah, still not quite) rather than confidence–if there were so much confidence in that “feeling of superiority”, it wouldn’t be expressed mostly thru antisemitism, would it?
“As for art whats so bad appreciating it all,”
Oh, you pathetic prole, anyone who claims to appreciate it *all* is just covering for the fact that they can’t really appreciate *any* of it. Your taste is limited to your mouth. 8)
“it is not considered by any brasilsin to be in the north or south.”
Is that just deflecting, or … what?
Well Ze certainly Brazilian women are for sure beautiful. They have contributed to super model pool significantly : )
i need to traslate dan for you. North is Africa and south is German,Italian. Rio is neither north nor south just wonderfully cinnamon.
As for any real confidence, if he truly believed one he would not need to state anything.
As for taste you got me, none! It was the fact i was simply indecisive and incapable of forming tasteful opinions that i liked both the citybank bldg and the chrysler bldg in the same skyline. Sad to referece for me but the twin towers were simple and iconic.
Welcome to the Internet please don’t feed the trolls
“I was once at a dinner and some guy was saying that there are so many Jewish Nobel prize winners because they have hijacked the award…lol… at the end of the day any one with shred of a brain would think this is a stupid statement and in fact”
I do feel the award has lost all significance as it is partisan and polarized as hell now and our President who authorized tents & tanks to get bombed on a “no fly zone” UN authorization and he won the award after barely being in office.
Maybe not a zionist conspiracy, per se, but certainly a gigantic joke and politically motivated, IMNSHO (in my not so humble opinion–still waiting for webster to catch up).
“Bob, to me anything that limits making the optimal decision is a negative trait.”
Acceptance of other cultures cannot be quantified and hence your opinion is invalid and based on opinion. Personally I have learned much from other cultures and would never want to trade that experience–it has awakened me to how much under attack my demographic is in this country.
Foreigners and Democrats _hate_ straight, white, non-jewish males. I can garner so much from policy enacted over the past fifty years. Don’t expect any empathy from me when the tables are turned because I know who my detractors are. I’ll cackle if I had the chance to send my detractors to CN showers. Know that.
Nazi jokes still arent funny.
“i need to traslate dan for you. North is Africa and south is German,Italian.”
No, you missed it. He was calling the usa brazil north. Brazil is brazil south; he’s saying that the usa is turning into a lesser country and you–even you–recognize that and have traded what used to be the greatest country ever for a world average type place. He was putting down brasil, the usa and you rather efficiently, if overly opaquely.
lol.. Thanks for clearing that up for me…wow i went for overt racism as opposed to subtle racism…. Oldest trick in the book.
Let’s play a fun game called ‘How Much Will House Price Go Down?’
I took year/year figures for Chicago from October 1990 to present and graphed them.
From 1990 to 1998 it just peters along at a slow and steady 0-5%..no big deal. Towards the end of 1998 it breaks out of it’s range, skyrocketing up to 14.5% year over year appreciation in March 2001. I guess people cashed out their tech stocks and plowed into real estate.
The year/year gains drop from 14.5% after March 2001 but stay above the 1990-1998 trend until February 2006. From there things go south in a hurry.
Year over year appreciation ceases to exist in November 2006. Then it gets hairy–depreciation kicks in.
April 2008 has -14.5% year over year depreciation. Curiously enough our policy makers decided the market needed some help in the form of a tax credit. Yet they were never interested in suppressing the year over year gains of 14.5% in March 2001.
March 2009 marks a trough with 23% year over year depreciation, despite a tax credit.
From there we see a sharp trendline reversal and by May 2010 we have year over year appreciation of 11.7%. After this another sharp trendline reversal and we’re at -5.3% year over year depreciation in December 2010.
On a graph the wild swings of the past few years look like a heartbeat pulse. The wild gyrations look like cardiac arrest (but I am no doctor).
The funny thing is, there’s so many people who told me in December 2009 that the bottom was here, and that I’d better buy now so before it’s too late and the market recovers quickly. What a joke.
What is the predicton for December 2011 year over year price change? I predict another 5% drop.
This unit will not sell for over $700K.
“I predict another 5% drop.”
National or generic statistics don’t mean anything. We are certainly operating in a dysfunctional market where the real estate has become very micro-focused. So, what can we do to make better sense of the market? Well, we can look into certain trends, the downward pressure on prices is getting less and less significant. Why? For instance, there are individual buildings that out-perform the market, there is consolidation of distressed properties at the hands of buyers that are in a healthy position to start new and relatively lengthy sales cycles, rates are on an upward trend, and there is still a lot of cash flowing in the international economy, though the U.S. is not getting a big share of that, it does have some effect, because it brings in buyers from overseas;
We are operating in an environment where pent-up demand is slowly going away. What does that mean? It means that the prices got low enough for primary residence buyers to go out there and buy what they need to buy. The rates are almost a point higher today
from fall 2010. That’s a cost of $30K over 30 years for a property in the half million bracket.
So, people who engage cluelessly in this intellectual masturbation of guessing when the market will bottom out, or continue to form their opinions because an inventory of half-ass finished 1000 foreclosed homes in some dark suburban location no one wants to live in will become available sometime this year, and will somehow miraculously put a downward pressure on prices in the popular neighborhoods of Chicago.
In my opinion, this dysfunctionality will continue until we reach a point where we start seeing demand for a new inventory of new construction and that’s probably 5-7 years away, maybe more, maybe less, depending on both local and geopolitical factors.
Until, we reach that point, we will stay in the buyers market, but if you are a buyer, the worst thing you can do is to engage in this stupid bottom out debate, instead of trying to understand the contextual environment you are operating in. So, if this was your dream building, and you can afford this place, this is a dream price, and this is a price which allows you to get into this building, it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity, for that buyer. These type of buildings, while they get affected significantly by the market conditions they nevertheless operate outside the curve. It is a niche product. So, to say that it will go down to $700K is nothing bug bullshit. It’s baseless.
“What is the predicton for December 2011 year over year price change? I predict another 5% drop. ”
That puts CSI at 112–we might hit that this spring before it warms up. We’ll get a summer bounce though as always. I am predicting a 7% drop, corresponding to a CSI of 109.6 for December 2011.
From my chart these are rapid gyrations from December 2005 to present. Currently the trendline is back down. In fact there likely would’ve never been a spike if it hadn’t been for the tax credit goosing demand.
“and will somehow miraculously put a downward pressure on prices in the popular neighborhoods of Chicago.”
I’m already seeing significant downward pressure on prices in the popular neighborhoods of Chicago Spinoza. I’m discussing the extent to which it will continue and to what degree.
“So, to say that it will go down to $700K is nothing bug bullshit. It’s baseless.”
Equally, to say that it will sell anywhere near the short sale ask price of 900k is nothing “bug bullshit” and pure conjecture either. Pissing in the wind ye are, Spinoza.
I didn’t say there wasn’t any, but to say it’s significant, it’s none sense. There is a significant amount of consolidation going on at the moment, a lot of investors who are in a good cash position are buying properties.
So, give me specifics, justify your comment, provide sources. You also have to relativize it in relationship to other factors, like the rates fluctuations. Someone who purchased a property in the half-million bracket last fall, got rates that were in the high 3’s in certain cases. As I said above, that’s $30K over 30years you are talking about. It offsets, a good amount of that depreciation that you are talking about so randomly, without offering any specific sources. The remainder of that depreciation, if there is any, for a primary residence owner who is going to own for long years to come, would be perfectly within reasonable margin.
I didn’t say it will sell at $900K, although it perfectly could. The way most people analyze pricing is based on their affordiblity factor, and just because they can’t afford it, it doesn’t mean it is over-priced. This is again, a niche property, you have to analyze it outside the curve. It won’t be affected in the same fashion, as another, more generic proprty with similar specs.
spinoza – your post is the most accurate description/explanation of what is going on out there in the real estate market. This is why all the stupid CSI data and data that G provides is really meaningless and useless. You can’t average out real estate data – it is too location and property specific. Anyone that does generalize or look at the averages/etc. is an idiot.
Or more properly put, it could be significant in some neighborhoods, and much less significant in others. Streeterville for instance is saturated with rather generic condos. So, yes, there might some more depreciation there to get rid of that inventory, but in the same neighborhood, there is some unique stuff as well, e.g. independent from whether you like it or not, the depreciation factor won’t be the same for say 600 Fairbanks and 512 McClurg or 474 N. LSD.
My overall point is that the more generic you get in your analysis, the less relevant it becomes in this environment.
I wasn’t trying to compare this specific property to the national or overall Chicago market. I think it sells for much closer to $700K than $900K due to the competition this unit has. If it sells for over $750K, I don’t think it’s a deal by any means.
##“I think I like it, although I’m torn between liking them and having that one bathroom remind me of a doctor’s exam room.”
#Don’t do it! And if you do, only do it in a bathroom that is not used often. Had them in my old condo in the master bath….2 of them….toothpaste was a killer. And you would have to clean them about 3 times before they actually looked good.
Well, I’ve already made the mistake once in my life of selecting a shiny BLACK sink for a bathroom. Man, what a PITA that was! I would use the bathtub rather than run water in it. Even plain tap water would dry and leave funky spots on it. Now that I’m a bit older, I could see simply becoming one of those folks who has a cloth tucked away somewhere and “shines the sink” after every use, but life is WAY too short for that kinda stuff.
I’m getting ready to re-do the bathroom, and an undermounted sink is definitely on the drawing board. Debating a jack and jill setup with only a 60″ wide space. Probably not.
Speaking of black and stainless sinks…do you think the pastel-colored sinks that were all the rage in the 60s will ever come back? I love seeing them in un-renovated vintage condos along Lake Shore/Marine/Sheridan on the North Side. (And once upon a time you could even buy bathroom tissue to match the fixtures! Ah, nostalgia!)
“It offsets, a good amount of that depreciation that you are talking about so randomly, without offering any specific sources. ”
The properties I have been following are priced much more modestly, but I’ve been following one near me in a ~20 unit complex. Was listed near 200k for awhile now it’s mid 160s. Sellers are coming down on their ask prices after the things have been listed for 6+ months as they really want to move. Also some properties on Kingsbury have hit pricing that hasn’t been seen since 2003 and not all are short sales.
“My overall point is that the more generic you get in your analysis, the less relevant it becomes in this environment.”
It’s hard to argue this point. Some buildings are holding up quite well: 340 on the Park comes to mind.
“Well, I’ve already made the mistake once in my life of selecting a shiny BLACK sink for a bathroom.”
Any color other than white for appliances makes me cringe. Even stainless steel has negative mental associations (jail/prison). Plus black appliances are so…80s.
Well, I did do that bathroom IN the 80’s, and the whole thing is black and white, with hexagonal floor tile. Tub and toilet are white, though. The kitchen in that place had black and white checkerboard floor tile, and a raspberry (okay, PINK) counter-top!
And yes, I remember the days of color coordinated TP; blue, yellow, pink and green shades, yes? But, I don’t see that ever coming back as “new”. Clothing style trends seems to recycle themselves on a shorter cycle than do furnishing and interior design trends.
logan… I have been in my shower many times while someone was using a sink but for the life of me can never remember using the 2 sinks simultaneously. Could see if u were living with someone on your schedule that u shower with but otherwise a waste. Use the money and get 1 really nice faucet for that space.
You guys, what do you think about Heritage? Specifically this one:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/130-N-Garland-Ct-60602/unit-1709/home/12647871
Groove77 has been kept waiting far too long for the CMK 235 Van Buren buyer videos he pines for. As promised, here’s the latest, Groove …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fa6QrVi6WQ
Wow, the dull-minded crybabies here need to calm down with their anger… chill out. Open a book, Get erudite, get educated. If you can’t handle adult discussions, or need “censorship” or denial to win argument, just go watch cable TV on the couch where ignorance goes unchallenged!
Anyway, Spinoza, let’s get back to basics: the Contemporaine is a building with ugly exposed concrete ceilings, it parrots a tired 90-year old “anti-art” modernist paradigm, and it’s developed by CC’s ultra-favorite developer, LOL:
CMK
You can like it, because “anti” types like de Botton (a fake surname no doubt) have told you to do so, but don’t whine and cry if others who have more developed and less superficial educations, tastes, instincts, experience, etc. do not.
In Joe’s 235 video the broker says she bought pre-construction as an investment, and she likes the “concrete feel of it” and it’s trendy/chic, and says the developer has a good reputation. When it’s nighttime you don’t even need lights on due to light from other buildings.
It would be nice if we stuck to RE.
ze did not move to brasil because he saw opportunity for himself, ze always liked brasil, always thought rio could be a paradise, and ze saw the changes occuring that could allow that to finally take place.
The opportunity presented itself later and quite by accident.
Also you are misinterpreting my beliefs. I see america in decline only as it is on the wrong side of a global mean reversion. You neglect to represent my belief of that reversion being overlayed upon an upward moving slope.
clio will be right about nominal prices in 15 years, the debt will all be monitized whether you and i dislike it is irrelevant, there is no alternative anymore, and regardless i’m definately not anti-dollar right now.
“clio will be right about nominal prices in 15 years, the debt will all be monitized whether you and i dislike it is irrelevant, there is no alternative anymore,”
When do you think the tipping point was? I’d say it was sometime in ’03.
“and regardless i’m definately not anti-dollar right now.”
That’s a big shift. Any particular reason?
The Redfind listing shows Special Assessments – how much and for what reason? Love the light and open floorplan. Great location if you work in the Loop; good access to restaurants, Michigan Avenue; el/train/, West Loop.
“Anyway, Spinoza, let’s get back to basics: the Contemporaine is a building with ugly exposed concrete ceilings, it parrots a tired 90-year old “anti-art” modernist paradigm, and it’s developed by CC’s ultra-favorite developer, LOL:
CMK
Dan, I hate CMK and that’s the only thing that makes me question whether this building is well built or not. I am being very careful here, I am not saying that it is not well built but it needs to be looked into. It is still too new of a building for a special. So, in short, if the developer cut corners and there are problems you can forget about everything I said positively about the building.
Now, from the aesthetical/functional stand point, it is very clear that you have no taste, nor understanding of these matters, but that’s ok. The exposed concrete you are speaking of, is a treatment which, if it is done right, is one of the most expensive and labor intensive surface treatments there is out there.
But, once again, the primary focus of modern design and built is never about the aesthetics. The way you engage in this argument clearly shows a deep lack of understanding what’s it all about.
anon… Finishing up playin cowboy so i can get back to rio asap… Too hot here today. Saw the ? And will reply this evening.