Is Controversy Brewing Over Developer’s Plan to Sell Remaining Units? 659 W. Randolph in the West Loop
Crain’s is reporting that Mesirow, which holds the remaining units still for sale at 659 W. Randolph, in the West Loop, is trying to sell them to a non-profit group.
From Crain’s:
The real estate unit of the Chicago-based firm wants to convert 19 unsold condos in the building at 659 W. Randolph St. into housing for recovering mental-health patients who are ready to live independently but still need help getting back on their feet.
Mesirow would sell the condos to Thresholds, a local non-profit that specializes in treating people with mental illness or addictions, which would then rent them out to its clients, according to a proposal before the City Council.
And since many owners at 659 W. Randolph like to discuss their building, and its problems, here on Crib Chatter- I thought I’d open up a thread for them (and everyone else) to do so.
According to Crain’s, the condo board was going to be meeting to discuss its options once it had gotten more information on the deal.
To obtain zoning approval from the city for the R+D659 project, a Mesirow-led venture agreed to set aside 24 condos, or about 10% of the building’s total, as affordable units to be sold to buyers whose annual income does not exceed the Chicago-area median.
But the developer has sold just five of the condos “due to the recession and a slowdown in the housing market,” according to the proposed ordinance pending before the City Council.
“This is certainly one creative solution for filling up the units,” says Gail Lissner, vice-president at Appraisal Research Counselors, a Chicago-based consulting firm.
Mesirow needs the city’s blessing because current city rules do not allow for sales to non-profits. Under the deal, Thresholds would pay no more than $125,750 apiece for the 19 condos, says the proposed ordinance, which Mayor Richard Daley introduced last month.
Do possible bulk sales like this one, the possibility of condo towers going part rental/part owned as we’ve seen in Astoria Tower, auctions of units as we’ve seen in the Vetro, and major price cuts as we’ve seen in numerous buildings- are these things enough to turn buyers off to buying new construction?
Mental health non-profit wants to buy Mesirow condos [Crain’s Chicago Business, Alby Gallun, January 5, 2011]
I’m all for helping those in need (mental health problems, addictive behaviors), but that should be done in a secure and safe building away from the general public, not in the same building that condo owners paid hundreds of thousands for. I would be raising hell in my local alderman’s office if this was happening to me. Who gets sued if one of the people living here is hurt by these patients? Mesirow, Threshold, the city, or all of the above?
Cant they put them in one of the section 8 housing buildings that are for the elderly only on a seperate floor?
It’s interesting – I bet most of the CC regulars are just as disturbed (if not more so) than these people recovering from mental health issues. I would prefer to live near them than next to some on this site.
I don’t think I would be disturbed by the prospect of mentally ill people living in my building. These people are statistically less likely to be violent than the “normal” population… which isn’t so “normal” in any case.
What I would be disturbed by is the fact that a unit I’d paid many hundreds of thousands of dollars for had lost so much value that units like it would be available for such low prices…. and still not sell.
What I’m curious about is how a city ordinance could forbid sales of units in a condo building to a non-profit. I’ve heard of non-profits, such as private foundations, owning units in a number of expensive, prestigious buildings. Someone told me that a private foundation owned at least one unit at the prestigious 2430 N. Lakeview Cooperative.
As I recall, Thresholds runs an expensive residential program for young adults with mental health issues such as bipolar disorder. Thresholds owns at least one elegant townhouse on north end of Lakeview, north of 2430 Lakeview building. Thresholds’ clients are not necessarily the drunken/stoned low-income idlers hanging out in the lobby as foreseen in Crain’s article.
hey look at it this way, let them buy the units NOBODY else is as we can see.
how is this different than say any joe wack job buying here, there is no screening when buying a condo unit, you just need a DP and a bank loan.
I would rather my neighbor be a mental health recoverererer that has and is in therapy working on fixing whats broke than most of the whack jobs on cribchatter that have not been treated yet.
also you would want a almost recovered mental person occupying the space with a business guaranteed to pay the bills. instead of one of HD’s clients which he advised to stop paying and walk away.
and really,
you bought into a 240 unit condo the odds were against you anyway.
Groove77, I was one of the last non-cpan buyers in the building…I don’t think any joe wack job can get a bank loan in this building, or get a loan in general… you have to have a pretty good job and pretty good employement history in this market…. in addition, as admitted by Thresholds, these would-be residents have “serious mental illnesses”…That’s not putting it lightly…I agree with Mike in that I am all for helping those in need, just not while comprimising my family’s safety…
on the plus side,you do not have to worry about the units getting flipped,there are usually restrictions on how long the they have to be held before selling,and nobody is buying now so in a year or so the sales prices become insignificant in an appraiser’s view if any existing owner is trying to sell.
@Laura
re: ‘What I’m curious about is how a city ordinance could forbid sales of units in a condo building to a non-profit’
– the ordiance is strictly is regards to the ‘affordable’ units in the developement. Under that program, those units have to be sold directly to an individual. Most large developements have some sort of ‘afforable’ unit component in exchange for zoning changes, TIF, or other incentives.
Though I think the the Condo Board should be able to stop or limit this action somehow. Assuming that the developer has turned over the building to the owners. Any building can make restrictions against rentals, or maybe in this case limit the minimum lenght of a rental. Say to 1 year, so thresholds couldn’t have a resident in a unit for less than 12 months.
Clio: “It’s interesting – I bet most of the CC regulars are just as disturbed (if not more so) than these people recovering from mental health issues. I would prefer to live near them than next to some on this site.”
Glad you are back! And staying classy to boot.
Questioning the mental health status of complete strangers simply because they disagree with you? Nice, I guess…but don’t stop there. I like the path you were going down with the whole “sociopath” thing. Posters here aren’t just wrong, they are mentally defective, to the point of torturing small animals.
Isn’t this an obvious example of why these buildings should enact a rental cap?
Yet I don’t know of a single building that has done so in the last 4 years (since 2007.) Although I heard rumors that 340 E Randolph (340 On the Park) did so but I couldn’t confirm it. That would be the last “new” construction building that I’ve heard of having one.
And actually- I would be more concerned as a homeowner that there are all these rental units – than the people living in them. Who is going to get a loan to buy anything in the building?
The board could also pass really restrictive rental rules- like One Museum Park did- with huge move in and move out fees etc. Of course, that would impact all the units in the building.
Auction the units off… no reserve. Let the free market sort it out.
The people that already purchased units in the building did so with the understanding that all of the units would be sold at market price. $125k is probably not the market price they were inclined to purchase them for.
My building put in a restriction saying that any lease shorter than 18 months has to pay a penalty of one months rent. Certainly helped with short term leases. Of course, I would think you could just create a lease saying the rent is $100 per month, and then a seperate addendum noting you have to pay an extra $x amount.
I agree with Clio on this point. I lived in a building that featured 20 (out of 120) units owned by CIF (center for independent futures). It gets annoying waking up at 3am to a fire alarm because someone decided to put their pants in a toaster. If you dare to complain people think your an insensitive prick for not understanding their condition. Glad I’ve sold my unit and moved on.
bobbyv,
All i am trying to say is i would rather live next to someone at the end of recovery KNOWING their situation than a normal person on the brink without any help or therapy under their belt.
real issue is what sabrina brings up is having many rental units in one building is bad regardless of the emotional wellness of the person residing next to you.
i do feel bad that you will have to endure the angst of the will they wont they. and your if they do your personal preference of not wanting them there causing you stress. but i suggest you 659’ers ban together quick and fight, fight, fight.
If this doesnt become a poster for NIMBY then i dont know what will.
and another strike, in my book, of why condo ownership is a huge joke and akin to communism (thank you russ).
“I would rather my neighbor be a mental health recoverererer that has and is in therapy working on fixing whats broke than most of the whack jobs on cribchatter that have not been treated yet.”
TftinChi – you chose to ignore the statement above made by another regular CC in order to single me out. It makes me wonder what is behind the animosity…….
Isn’t this a really bad location for recovering mental health patients bearing in mind the bridge over the highway right outside?
This is why I never liked large condo developments and stayed away from them when I bought a condo many years ago. Given the large number of units, there are just too many risks with financially insolvent neighbors, renters, etc.
This would blow for the current owners. When they bought their unit, they were not buying with the intention of living in a glorified insane asylum and rental complex.
There are a couple of developments where owners and buyers are having a hard time selling/buying/refinancing because the CHA required the developers to lease a number of units back to them as affordable housing (some of the developments in Old Town). None of the conforming lenders will touch the developments because those units comprise more than 10% being owned by one entity which is running afoul of Fannie/Freddie guidelines now.
It took me damn near 7 mos to finally find a portfolio lender who would refi an 80% LTV condo to a perfect borrower in one of those buildings. Not a single conforming lender wanted anything to do with it because of the rental agreement the development had with the CHA.
See Uptown for the results of halfway houses and places for people with mental issues. Sounds good on paper and to bed wetting libs, but the results stand on their own.
What do you think this means for property values of other buildings in the neighborhood? What if this building is three buildings down from you?
When will the city and developers learn that trying to mix regular units along with “affordable” housing and others like section 8 is a bad idea and leads to more trouble then good.
Yet another example where government involvement in the free market always ends up poorly. I read yesterday that Clinton appointed Billy Daley to the Fannie Mae board, also appointed Emanuel to the Freddie Mac board of directors!! Good grief.
“There are a couple of developments where owners and buyers are having a hard time selling/buying/refinancing because the CHA required the developers to lease a number of units back to them as affordable housing (some of the developments in Old Town). None of the conforming lenders will touch the developments because those units comprise more than 10% being owned by one entity which is running afoul of Fannie/Freddie guidelines now.”
As someone who has a close relative with serious psychological issues (paranoid schizophrenic) and wh struggled for a long time to find stable housing for him ( we eventually bought him a small house since we were unable to keep him in an apartment and social services were no help ) I can see both sides here. I think the real issue here is density. It is certainly true that my relative’ s neighbors have some ‘ issues’ to put up with– he will determine that a neighbor is responsible for putting x Ray waves in his t.v., for example, and cuss her out. But he is the only person with severe mental illness on the block. I worry in this situation that there will be so many mentally I’ll people in one building that it will cause problems. Better spread them around a bit more– and again I say this as someone who has personal knowledge of this problem.
KingHippo,
Where are you????
“The real estate unit of the Chicago-based firm wants to convert 19 unsold condos in the building at 659 W. Randolph St. into housing for recovering mental-health patients who are ready to live independently but still need help getting back on their feet.”
LMFAO this is some funny stuff.
“but that should be done in a secure and safe building away from the general public, not in the same building that condo owners paid hundreds of thousands for. ”
Bwahahahaha I find this hilarious. It’s the developer’s ultimate FU to current owners cuz the biz environment went sour on them and they aren’t going to make any money.
This is why I say never, ever, trust developers. Only buy in established buildings. The egregious a-holeish and dishonest business practices from the vast majority of them (if not all) means they cannot be trusted, especially when making the largest financial decision of people’s lives.
“Thresholds’ clients are not necessarily the drunken/stoned low-income idlers hanging out in the lobby as foreseen in Crain’s article.”
I live right around the corner from that Thresholds center at Lakeview and Wrightwood, and there are often a bunch of their clients lingering around out front, etc. While they have all the right in the world to hang out in front on a public sidewalk, I don’t know that lobby lingering would be so far fetched. For an upscale building, that could be a big detraction. I’d be fuming mad if my building thought about something like this and the issues it’d create with regards to property values. And wouldn’t something like this make it impossible to get a traditional mortgage on a unit in the building? That’d even further depress resale values…
I prefer not to have 10% of the building locked into rental status, perhaps particularly if the units will be rented to teens or young adults whose parents are paying for them to live somewhere outside their own home. The problem is that the developer reserved 24 units for low-income housing, and most people in that group aren’t able to get financing or simply can’t afford it (it looks like only 5 have sold). I’m sure the developer would prefer to sell the units at the market rate, but they’re locked into the CPAN/whatever program they bought into with the city.
“on the plus side,you do not have to worry about the units getting flipped,there are usually restrictions on how long the they have to be held before selling,and nobody is buying now so in a year or so the sales prices become insignificant in an appraiser’s view if any existing owner is trying to sell.”
LOL tell that to the suburban teacher who was buying these low income condos then flipping them at the first available opportunity. Dude made like 250k off of 3 of ’em.
“Thresholds would pay no more than $125,750 apiece for the 19 condos, says the proposed ordinance, which Mayor Richard Daley introduced last month.”
There’s your new comps. Oh yeah and also there’s to giving away a nice condo unit to someone who did nothing to deserve it in life meanwhile the rest of the owners probably dropped at least a quarter mill. More libtard attempts at equalizing outcomes.
Why goto college or pursue a high-paying profession when you can just do what you want and the Chicago libtards will just equalize outcomes to make everybody the same?
was the prospect of living with mental health patients mentioned in the giant cartoons?
I agree with Endora. As a longtime resident of university village I was around when they decided to move the pacific garden mission right next to us on canal st. They word was it would be the largest mens homeless shelter in the country. Ive always thought if you don’t wnat to walk out your door and see a homeless person once in a while move to Naperville, but it would probably be better for everyone to spread it out a little.
Clio: ” It makes me wonder what is behind the animosity…….”
Sorry, maybe I was too subtle with my sociopath reference. I guess when I get called names and have my mental health questioned, it colors the way I look at your posts. Though to be fair, I found groove’s post much more reasonable when taken as a whole.
I will back up everyone who is saying that those seeking treatment are probably less of a threat than the “normal” folks around you (who themselves might have mental health issues), but that also depends on the population we are talking about. Addiction and personality disorders are not exactly walks in the park. That said, and no matter what the population, this will hurt future sales pretty significantly, I’d think.
@Russ–good foresight not to buy a condo in a large building where this could potentially be an issue. I’d also argue that buying in a smaller 3 flat presents the same problems. I have a lawyer friend that is representing a condo association in litigation against a single owner that rents out her unit (therefore more than 30% of the total units) and the rental is keeping the other unit owners from selling because nobody can get financing for the building.
Seems mid-sized is definitely the way to go. Don’t have as much of the burden of supporting the entire association because of one bad tenant as you might in a small place, and probably not as many issues with massive vacancies or price reductions that you might have in some of these larger buildings. That being said, if purchasing a condo, what size building do you feel is best?
This could be neat just think how they could incorporate tinfoil hat creation sessions as a part of their homeowner’s association meetings.
Does anyone know how these condos reserved for people that earn below the median income work? Is the condo forever stuck in that status? meaning that the buyer can only sell it to another low income person?
What is the possibility of a positive outcome if the condo board goes after the developer for such a change? I’d be a lot less pissed if I got some cash in return. Sittin on the property and waiting out the crap RE market with some investment money doesn’t sound terrible to me if I liked the unit I was in. Heck, you probably wouldn’t have “patient neighbors” for another year or two.
Personally, I wouldn’t go smaller than a six unit building. For larger developments I like the mid sized high end buildings. I think the lesson in all this is really that new construction has risks that an existing development does not.
I wonder if we could see the tables turn to where established developments with strong HOAs sell at a premium over new developments? Right now, people by new because they want the graniteel but at the same time, there are substantial risks when buying from developers, many of which have shown themselves to be shady SOBs.
I’m telling you that condo ownership in prime buildings is going to move toward some type of co-op type arrangement where the existing owners can legally discriminate against new buyers. There are just too many risks to not have any say in who your neighbors are…at a minimum HOAs may figure out how to legally set some kind of a financial requirements or put in place rules that make it harder for some financing to keep out first time home buyers or those with low down payments.
“Thresholds owns at least one elegant townhouse on north end of Lakeview”
I lived on Lakeview just a block south of the Thresholds facility for a couple of years. While it obviously stood out like a sore thumb (weather permitting, there are usally a dozen or so guys hanging around outside the place, some of whom can look a little sketchy), I never personally had any problem, nor has anyone I know. I don’t think the place is cheap. I’ve encountered some seriously mentally ill folks in that immediate vicinity (a couple of times I was sure things were about to get violent), but I really don’t think they were related to Thresholds.
If there’s a mental health facility in ELP directly on the park, I’d say the folks in the WL can accommodate such facilities as well. Perhaps I’m a bed-wetting lib, but if anything, I’d be more concerned about the mentally ill folks’ quality of life in the WL.
“I’m telling you that condo ownership in prime buildings is going to move toward some type of co-op type arrangement where the existing owners can legally discriminate against new buyers”
Russ, I think this would make sense and is logical – but when most condo owners/HOA can’t agree on the right shade of beige to paint the hallway, do you think they are organized and cooperative enough to form a coop = I think it would be extremely hard and I don’t see it happening in the majority of buildings.
Clio, no one knows for sure. But I think with more of these stories popping up and owners getting screwed by short sales and foreclosures and specuvestors, strong HOAs are going to get their act together and figure out way to protect their investment.
It will take some leadership and many buildings simply won’t have it. The stronger buildings will and those are going to be the ones whose values are maintained over time.
There are consulting services that have popped up to help HOAs restructure and get themselves better positioned for changes in the lending market so they aren’t left behind.
Sabrina – you need to add a rolling smily face emoticon to this site. This is hilarious. That board better call a special meeting tonight and start drawing up a declaration amendment prohibiting any future transferees from leasing out their units ASAP. A $5k move in fee that is partially waived for owners might be nice, too. That will kill the mini-Trump specuvestors, but being known as a loony bin will kill them, too. Was Mesirow actually the developer or did they foreclose on the developer? If the developer was foreclosed and is now bankrupt, good luck collecting anything from them for their misleading representations.
OMG I would be so pissed if they did that in my building…
king hippo where art thou?
And is mesirow one of Joey the Zekas’s clients?
I wonder how he can positively spin this one… LOL
oh wait… I got it
“You’d be crazy NOT to buy in RD659!”
The association can attempt to block the sale but at what cost?
The price they are reportedly paying (126k) per unit would be close to the case regardless of who buys it- they are affordable units for a reason (Bob).
As for condo ownership- if you are in an unsold building- you don’t have a ton of control over what the developers do with the unsold units. Would you rather the developer be foreclosed on? It is an unfortunate reality of the current market but it is just that- a reality. Kudos to Thresholds for thinking a bit outside of the box and solving a problem for residents at RD659. The sale isn’t a guarantee (because of logistics). If it does move forward, I’m sure Thresholds will meet with homeowners and discuss who will be living there (what phase of treatment, etc) and will make it as amicable as possible.
Who knows? The association may try to ‘One Museum Park’ it .
I have to admit, that I would not buy into a building that was going to be occupied by a large percentage of the seriously mentally ill. One unit, I could understand, but 10% of the building?
What kind of safeguards are they going to have in place to make sure violent offenders are not going to move into the building? I just don’t trust Thresholds to determine the safety of each person.
In my grandpa’s building, there was a single seriously mentally ill person and he caused so much fear from the other residents that they eventually sued to have him evicted.
I sympathize with mentally ill people. I have suffered from depression and anxiety, but I wouldn’t trust Thresholds to keep people who are suffering from psychoses out of the building.
I feel bad for the current owners. Selling their units is going to be next to impossible.
Sonies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwrBErYXKoY
““You’d be crazy NOT to buy in RD659!””
KRAZY rental deals for those who sign a lease NOW!
“This is why I never liked large condo developments and stayed away from them when I bought a condo many years ago. Given the large number of units, there are just too many risks with financially insolvent neighbors, renters, etc.”
I’ll take 19 crazies in a 237 units building over 2 not paying their mortgage in a 3 unit building. More units = more diversification = less risk. Just don’t buy in a building where the developer will whore themselves out to loony bins and section 8s.
“Just don’t buy in a building where the developer will whore themselves out to loony bins and section 8s.”
This affordable unit designation is not considered section 8 or mixed income housing and I know of many other developments with these set asides. It appears you need to screen for these “affordable income” set aside units as well, as these owners are learning the hard way.
I think everyone is lumping “seriously mentally ill and violent” with “recovering mental-health patients who are ready to live independently but still need help getting back on their feet.”
And that would be the key. What measures would be in place to make sure that someone like Jenny, who suffer from depression and anxiety can rent a unit, but someone who is a danger to herself or others doesn’t?
What is the determining factor for “ready to live independently?”
A Rorschach test administered and interpreted by the condo board, of course.
“What is the determining factor for “ready to live independently?”
My goodness, they tried selling these two bedrooms for $427,000.
I wonder how well that worked out for them.
Laura: “What I would be disturbed by is the fact that a unit I’d paid many hundreds of thousands of dollars for had lost so much value that units like it would be available for such low prices…. and still not sell.”
Laura–these are ALL the units reserved for “below market” sales, so they were always going to sell for 100k+ less than the other units in the building.
Bob: “This affordable unit designation is not considered section 8 or mixed income housing and I know of many other developments with these set asides. It appears you need to screen for these “affordable income” set aside units as well, as these owners are learning the hard way.”
They’re common in some other cities. They’ve been common in the EsEff area for over 20 years.
“What measures would be in place to make sure that someone like Jenny, who suffer from depression and anxiety can rent a unit, but someone who is a danger to herself or others doesn’t? ”
I once worked with a guy whose wife suffered from depression and anxiety. When he took a vacation to celebrate their 20th anniversary together he never came back. Wackjob wife after starting on anti-depressants waxed him, their two children then herself (only the family dog was spared). No prior history of violence from her. She just started on meds then went totally crazy. It made the news in his locality at the time.
While incidents like this might be rare, don’t assume that someone seeking treatment for mental disorders cannot be dangerous just because there is no history of violence–that is a fallacious & naive assumption.
And imagine what the first incident of a mental patient making headlines in the building would do to property values. If you’re housing 20 of ’em it’s almost an eventuality.
i took the bubble going poppity pop to expose the scams going on its up to us as partially intelligent creatures to NOT CONTINUE THE FALLING FOR THE SCAM.
how many more things like this have to happen before everyone see’s the emperor has no clothes.
its nutz (pun intended) at the people i talk to outside of CC about RE how clueless and ready to be scammed they are. Seriouly how does the common human not see what right in front of them.
“Laura–these are ALL the units reserved for “below market” sales, so they were always going to sell for 100k+ less than the other units in the building. ”
i would like to know and i ask you 659 residents were you 100% aware of this fact when you signed or was it diluted?
From a medical standpoint,
I wouldn’t deem it safe to live with people that have a serious history of mental health problems, recovering or not. Mental illness is a disease, be it bipolar, schizophrenia, Depression, whatever – these are diseases that need treatment with medication, often for a lifetime. At any point an individual can fall of the wagon, the condition can worsen, etc. It’s just like any other disease..The problem is that with this population of patients there is a high risk of suicide, homicide, violence, and other problems. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be given a chance to come back into society, but it’s definitely a bad idea to throw them into a luxury condo building with a bunch of hard working – normally functioning members of society. There isn’t anything wrong with having a halfway house / methadone clinic / rehab center in a nice neighborhood, these places are all over the west loop, gold coast, south loop, etc. However, placing these individuals in the same residential building as families, childrens, and obviously people who don’t understand nor know how to react to their illness is a threat to others, as well as to the patient. What an idiotic idea.
On a side note, I hate this building. The half length windows remind me of a jail cell, and I’m not a fan of the kitchen layouts and concrete ceilings either. Hideous.
children*
I don’t think some of you realize how many crazy people 19 units is… Thats probably an entire floor of this building if not more, and what if they do 2-3 people per unit? dear lord that would be a disaster
Trust me, as someone with a crazy wife… meds and “recovery” are never permanent
“i would like to know and i ask you 659 residents were you 100% aware of this fact when you signed or was it diluted?”
I remember someone defending these on CC saying these set asides were for “teachers, policemen & firefighters” and I laughed at them. Not only because all 3 are egregiously overpaid in Crook County vs. their private sector counterparts but also because I doubted their sincerity in that statement.
Mental patients does not equate to “teachers, policemen & firefighters” in any case.
oh gosh BOB,
you are totaly helping back my therory that i would rather live in a building with people at the end of getting help than the person with now help at all yet.
P.S. its not because of the story you told. look for help brother, look for it please
While i think that teachers deserve every penny they make, I’m with Bob a little bit on the fact that in Chicagoland a lot of government employees make crazy dough. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there a chicago trib article not long back stating 30% of teachers or something in Chicago were making 100k +?
“you are totaly helping back my therory that i would rather live in a building with people at the end of getting help than the person with now help at all yet.”
Noone is forcing you to raise your family in a secure environment. By all means feel free to move into a mixed income development: there are some great deals available out there at many communities (ie: Parkside of Old Town).
Methinks, Groovester is more about talking the walk, than walking the walk. Despite the personalities on here I’d rather have my family around even clio or Heitman than someone seeking mental treatment. Obnoxious is far more preferable in one’s neighbors than unpredictable.
Here I am. What did I miss?
I guess I just don’t trust Thresholds to properly weed out the violent ones. Yeah, I know anyone “could” become psychotic. A violent person or sex offender could move in almost anywhere. If Thresholds guaranteed not to send ex-cons into the building, I would feel more comfortable.
As someone else pointed out though, it’s not fair that some people have to pay the market rate for their homes, while others get to buy them at a much lower price. The principle of the thing makes me angry. I might even qualify for an “affordable” unit because I have chosen a low stress job. However, I don’t begrudge my harder working friends their nice homes and don’t expect the government to subsidize my housing.
“Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there a chicago trib article not long back stating 30% of teachers or something in Chicago were making 100k +?”
That is incorrect. Very few, if any, *teachers* in CPS make over $100k. The principals and much of the administration does, tho. Also, I have no idea about the suburban districts.
Welcome to the Republican Party Jenny.
“As someone else pointed out though, it’s not fair that some people have to pay the market rate for their homes, while others get to buy them at a much lower price. The principle of the thing makes me angry. I might even qualify for an “affordable” unit because I have chosen a low stress job. However, I don’t begrudge my harder working friends their nice homes and don’t expect the government to subsidize my housing.”
“Noone is forcing you to raise your family in a secure environment. By all means feel free to move into a mixed income development:”
so when is my hood a secure environment. i do live in a mixed income “area” its a NO income or little income but maybe not mixed enough to CHA standards?
“Methinks, Groovester is more about talking the walk, than walking the walk.”
but thats what typing behind a computer screen is for, isnt it?
and anyways you missed the point/pun/leg pulling i was going for on the PS part.
“I might even qualify for an “affordable” unit because I have chosen a low stress job. However, I don’t begrudge my harder working friends their nice homes and don’t expect the government to subsidize my housing.”
A friend of mine rented a subsidized apartment in SF while working for one of the big consulting firms–based on his “income” while a senior in college. It’s a system that is chock full o’ abuse [like that one, groove?].
“Despite the personalities on here I’d rather have my family around even clio or Heitman than someone seeking mental treatment.”
Unfortunately, the feeling isn’t mutual…..
“Also, I have no idea about the suburban districts.”
I think it was the wealthier suburban districts one of the newspapers had an article about them making a lot. I think the average for some of them was in the upper five figures, with many put over the top via doing a bunch of side jobs like coaching various sports.
“I might even qualify for an “affordable” unit because I have chosen a low stress job”
Right near where I work there are people that live in Presidential Towers with their rent subsidized. People I work with that choose to live in PT have to pay upwards of $1100/mo for all of those amenities at the market rate. The subsidized people pay a fraction of that.
I choose not to live there because I don’t want to spend that much of my income on rent. However the option for me to get that rent at fraction of market rates isn’t available to me–the government has made a value judgment that certain people whose income is below a certain threshold should be entitled to live in a luxury apartment.
Chicago is going to be fun to watch when Richie Jr steps down and all that dirt comes out from under the carpet. I have the popcorn ready.
“It’s a system that is chock full o’ abuse [like that one, groove?]”
you got my engines in my finger running, i have many oh so many stories of people i know abusing the system. (note, people i know not friends with)
a crazy sad fact of my examples that i have 90% of it is on race. and no bob not the one your thinking of. (and you to dann not that one your ALWAYS thinking of)
you were right about the teacher thing Bob, Anon, , it was hinsdale
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-07-14/news/ct-met-six-figure-salaries-20100714_1_school-teachers-salaries-six-figure
““ I don’t begrudge my harder working friends their nice homes and don’t expect the government to subsidize my housing.””
if you deduct your mortgage interstate/property taxes, the gov’t/other taxpayers are subsidizing your housing.
Needless to say a setback, but Mesirow (who is the original developer)is still a ways from pulling this off.
It’s my understanding the CPAN ordinance requires the Units be sold to owner/occupants only. The ordinance would have to be altered to allow both a company to purchase and said company to be able to rent out units. This major change has yet to be accomplished.
If this is accomplished however, the Board (which was turned over last year) is already working on alternative measures, many mentioned above to protect property values.
Ald. Burnetts inbox should be full of emails protesting the rule change by now.
I’m am curious to know if it is possible for a bi-law change severely limiting the amount of rentals is plausible as a way to discourage the sale and if that would stand up? I’m quite sure the votes are there.
If anyone can enlighten me –
why the heck in the first place has subsidized housing moved into luxury developments? When I was a kid we lived in a very average – below average apartment complex and had a decent chunk of subsidized housing move in, afterwards the neighborhood went to complete crap..I have a friend living in parkside at OldTown, he’s paying nearly 1500/month for a 1 bedroom there, but i’d say nearly 1/3rd of his neighbors are subsidized housing, he’s had stuff stolen from his garage locker twice, and his place was broken into just last week. When i lived in the south loop, I remember the rental property sky55 had tons of problems with subsidized tenants. I’m not saying low income tenants = crime, but the statistics are pointing in that direction. I don’t get this ‘mixed income’ thing..Is the idea that people are going to live with educated , well off neighbors supposed to motivate the subsidized tenants to better themselves? I don’t get it.
kinghippo- You are spot on. This isn’t a sure thing and whatever happens, it is going to be messy.
Hi Riz,
The city mandates it or a fee. Most developers of upscale buildings, like 600 N.F, pay the fee. Some dont
Riz,
go to Boston and you will be completely surprised. There, the ulta rich live in buildings with the ultra poor. There are 2 million dollar townhouse developments that have some section 8 units. It is a completely democratic and liberal city and guess what – nobody seems to mind or care. It is so weird. When I moved there, I was the ONLY person offended and shocked that a person could pay so much while your neighbor lives for free. Of course everyone thought I was the psycho and mean, etc…
Thanks david.
that makes sense. is this knowledge available to a condo buyer ahead of time? Ie, if the building has paid this fee or not?
Clio, i’m not famliar with boston. I’m far from being a snob, and understand that even in neighborhoods such as gold coast you will have low income housing, that kind of comes with the city, but i wouldn’t want to pay 400k – 1 mil for a place and live with subsidized housing..that’s just me though.
“Is the idea that people are going to live with educated , well off neighbors supposed to motivate the subsidized tenants to better themselves? I don’t get it.”
The “idea” is those subsidized tenants and their friends/family represent a large and consistently D voting bloc. They keep the votes coming in so long as the handouts do (which includes luxury housing).
“The “idea” is those subsidized tenants and their friends/family represent a large and consistently D voting bloc. They keep the votes coming in so long as the handouts do (which includes luxury housing).”
That’s sick. This may offend some, but I don’t think being poor is a good enough excuse for getting free or close to free luxury housing. The government is responsible, to an extent, to take care of the impoverished, but this is silly. I remember watching the news when the last cabrini project went down, and a good chunk of the tenants moved into the luxury townhouse development across the street – many of which were sold for 450k+. I have a lot of friends who grew up in urban environments in poor households, went to college and god decent jobs. None of them could even come close to affording a renatl in some of these developments ( RD 659, parkside, sky55 ). It’s sad.
have got*
Hey, if you got it, it’s the government’s job to take it from you and spread a little bit around. It’s unjust and unfair that rich children of doctors should be allowed to live in luxury apartments and drive nice cars, while the children of the poor live in slums. They deserve a taste of the life too. The purpose of government is to allow some bureaucrat to take your money and redistribute it to those he deems more deserving of the money.
yeah consider it a “reparations payment”
Riz,
Yes, this is known before you purchase a unit in a new building. You have to be smart enough to ask 🙂
The Mentally ill are WAY more interesting than Cubs fans
“The Mentally ill are WAY more interesting than Cubs fans”
can you actually tell them apart? Can you give us some tips?
“Hey, if you got it, it’s the government’s job to take it from you and spread a little bit around. It’s unjust and unfair that rich children of doctors should be allowed to live in luxury apartments and drive nice cars, while the children of the poor live in slums. They deserve a taste of the life too. The purpose of government is to allow some bureaucrat to take your money and redistribute it to those he deems more deserving of the money.”
haha, although i’m 99% sure your comment is satire/sarcasm, – Isn’t that capitalism though? the ” eat what you kill ” mentality? My dad grew up in a slum in a 3rd world country and made it here. The impoverished in this country have great opportunities in comparison – they can actually go to school, have government pay for their college education, even some graduate education, all they have to do is open a book. Everyone has a chance here, some may be more privileged, but there’s nothing stopping a poor person from going to high school, college, and law/med/MBA if they want it. doesn’t mean they should get an equivalent lifestyle for free.
Just my .02
I must say believing its going to be your teams year each March after over a century of it not being their year is more than just borderline delusional.
“go to Boston and you will be completely surprised.There, the ulta rich live in buildings with the ultra poor. There are 2 million dollar townhouse developments that have some section 8 units. It is a completely democratic and liberal city and guess what – nobody seems to mind or care.”
I’m orginally from Boston and was a property manager at several mixed income HUD/ MHFA backed housing developments. You’re statement about nobody caring about section 8ers is incorrect. Many people were and still are vehemently oppossed to mixed income housing. You can go to any Boston city council meeting where affordable housing is on the agenda and you’ll hear many landlords testifying against it. Boston or MA for that matter are not as liberal as you imply. It’s the same state that elected Mitt Romney and gave Ted Kennedy’s seat to Republican Scott Brown.
Despite what people think, it is not easy to get into a section 8 unit in a luxury building. It is often by lottery and there are years long waiting lists. The problem is there are no time limits. So if you hit the jackpot and get into a luxury apartment complex under section 8, you will never be motivated to earn more income and/or move out.
Not sure you can fairly compare Boston and Chicago. There is less of a race factor in Boston… and yes I know that race doesn’t necessarily predict income, but my guess would be that people are generally more sympathetic when those being helped look like them.
“It’s the same state that elected Mitt Romney and gave Ted Kennedy’s seat to Republican Scott Brown. ”
Against a couple of opponents that make Illinois Republican statewide candidates look like Washington and Lincoln.
And in regards to HOA imposing rules on the number of rentals….that is the easy part…..the hard part is how to control the limit. I lived in a 16 unit building at one point where we set the limit to 4. What we couldn’t work out is….do the first 4 get to rent forever…do they get 2 years and then it is offered to others in the building…if someone else wants to rent, what happens if the owner doesnt want to live there and can no longer rent…does it go into foreclosure/ are assessments no longer paid? How do other buildings do it?
I’m noticing that buildings with “affordable” set-asides can’t even sell the units for the “affordable” price.
I used to think that a large building would be much better cushioned against the financial stress of individual owners than a smaller one, in that one or two foreclosures and sets of assessment arrears is better spread among 50-100 owners, than among 3,or 6, or 9.
However, now that we are seeing really large buildings with dozens of foreclosures, I’m not so sure. What might be the “tip” point at which remaining owners, seeing a dozen or more defaults, mounting building bills unpaid, and crashing values, might also decide to default, leaving a smaller pool of remaining paying owners responsible for increasing bills? I’ve heard of buildings in Miami that sold for $700,000 for a 1 bed, where owner-residents are mowing the lawn and working the front desk, while 3 out of 4 elevators are shut down to save power, and the halls are dingy and dirty.
Condo ownership looks messier and scarier every day. I have heard that new state laws make it impossible to stick an incoming buyer with more than 6 months of assessment arrears for his unit, but there is really no way for a building to protect itself against a flood of defaults.
Still a long way to go before this happens.
I doubt there is much of a safety risk. There are plenty of mentally ill people everywhere and many times the neighbors do not know of the illness. Here the residents will at least know. Although if this happens, for purposes of safety, it will be best to be very polite to everyone – even though the property value just went down by 35%.
No more dinners at Avec or Blackbird for me.
“You can go to any Boston city council meeting where affordable housing is on the agenda and you’ll hear many landlords testifying against it. Boston”
Yes – the key word in your statement is “landlord” – most homeowners ignore or don’t care about it. I have owned numerous properties in Boston and can definitely say that I was one of the very few that was bothered by this.
“but there’s nothing stopping a poor person from going to high school, college, and law/med/MBA if they want it”
umm a bullet, a local gang members timberlands, horrible school system, a stray bullet, just to name a few (and one repeat).
but thats another debate.
so many of you complain about mixed income doesnt fix it, well thowing them all in one building didnt either. i.e. cabrini, ickies, taylor, wild hundreds.
what will work NIMBY’s?
“umm a bullet, a local gang members timberlands, horrible school system, a stray bullet, just to name a few (and one repeat).”
I don’t disagree with you about the violence, it’s a real problem. I was simply stating that the education opportunities available in this country can’t really be found elsewhere in the world for the poor population.
I don’t really know what the solution is , to be honest. Concentrating the low income community in one area just creates a ghetto, shifting them to the suburbs increases the crime rates there, and putting them in lux developments plummets real estate values. it’s a real paradox.
That’s the whole problem with this plan. Make it 5 units in 4 buildings and it’s a much better deal for all involved. Except Mesirow of course.
“I’m noticing that buildings with “affordable” set-asides can’t even sell the units for the “affordable” price.”
I am seriously considering maybe taking more bench time than usual, then working maybe 4-5 months of the year to qualify for one of these “affordable” units. I am definitely down with gaming a system as corrupt as ours.
ltcaffey- Do you think it would make any difference? Any more than one unit and residents panic. Does the degree of outrage shift that dramatically when we get above 2 or 3 units?
“I was simply stating that the education opportunities available in this country can’t really be found elsewhere in the world for the poor population.”
Google “social mobility”. If you’re born in the ghetto, you will die in the ghetto. I for one am glad that I won the baby lottery and don’t really get off on bitchin about poors.
“Google “social mobility”. If you’re born in the ghetto, you will die in the ghetto.”
If you believe you are prone to sweeping generalizations then you will never make much of an effort to change the outcome. I’m sorry your social circle is so small that you don’t know anyone who came from the ghettos and went on to make something of their life. I know several. Perhaps its because you are socially inept that your social circle is small enough to not provide examples that the “cycle of poverty” can be broken and many do it.
“shifting them to the suburbs increases the crime rates there”
Why should I care about that–sounds like a perfect solution to me. Why, riz, why should I care?
I lived in a 3-unit condo building where the units above and below me eventually went Section 8.
If I was home for most of a day, it was rare that I didn’t hear a screaming argument either above or below me.
I haven’t had too many dealings with Threshold’s “clients,” other than one in the New Jackson Hotel who was refusing to abide by their rules and who threatened a counselor who came to check up on him. IIRC, he ended up getting transported in an ambulance to a hospital for a psych evaluation.
“I was simply stating that the education opportunities available in this country can’t really be found elsewhere in the world for the poor population”
i can name a few but i get your point your trying to make.
but remember your a “type A” personality and really only that type is able to brush off their surroundings and make it to their goal.
“I don’t really know what the solution is , to be honest.”
if i knew i would be right smoking my pipe, wearing a monocle and polishing my nobel prize. alas i am desk jocking trying to figure out why are margin is so off budget.
“Google “social mobility”. If you’re born in the ghetto, you will die in the ghetto. I for one am glad that I won the baby lottery and don’t really get off on bitchin about poors.”
Really? do you get off on the fact that you won the ‘baby lottery’ , then?
Seems like your knowledge of social mobility is pretty weak , also. Social mobility and ECONOMIC mobility are two different concepts. Economic mobility is much more in question when referring to moving out of the ghetto. Also, the US has pretty high social AND economic mobility when compared to the rest of the world, so no, it is not true that ‘if you are born in the ghetto, you will die in the ghetto’…you sir, are an idiot.
“i can name a few but i get your point your trying to make.
but remember your a “type A” personality and really only that type is able to brush off their surroundings and make it to their goal.”
I’m not that type A at all.. honestly, much more laid back than many of my colleagues. I agree with you 100% that an individual needs to have a goal and work tirelessly towards it, at times ignoring the crappiness of their surroundings.
“Why should I care about that–sounds like a perfect solution to me. Why, riz, why should I care?”
I guess short term, we don’t really have to, bc we live there..but shifting the crime elsewhere isn’t a solution. Although chicago as a city has done a great job with this technique, haha
don’t* live there
“you sir, are an idiot.”
He is a good parrot of what he learned in his (probable) small liberal arts college. Instead of teaching critical thinking or other skills useful to gainful employment they teach kids certain ideologies and reward them for correctly parroting them back, those who don’t tow the party line are severely punished in the marks category. Nothing more than bacteria responding to stimuli, IMO.
“the US has pretty high social AND economic mobility”
Absolutely. And guess which way that mobility is going for the majority of residents, particularly those who bought real estate at the wrong time within the past decade? 😀
And also I just got the humor in that Bob 2 thinks he “won” the baby lottery (I guess if you consider getting your dollar back from a scratch off ticket).
All these buildings are going to be section 8 or “non-profit” housing in 5 years. Chicago is going back to the 70’s. People are going to be sick of living in the city and Suburbs are going to have a second renaissance like the early 80’s.
Just look at what’s happening in Miami. Condos aren’t even selling for $30K, that whole city is going to turn into a warzone. Imagine how bad Chicago is going to be when the poors start moving into LP, Lakeview, Bucktown, and the rest of the GZ through deals just like this one. Degentrification, and now, a better term I just thought up, Freegentrification where the poors just move into your neighborhood and building for free or 1/20th of what you paid.
I have land in Montana and Napa. So I’m not sweating it, but it’s pretty painful to see Chicago, especially ELP going down the drain in front of my eyes.
“I guess short term, we don’t really have to, bc we live there..but shifting the crime elsewhere isn’t a solution.”
It’s a solution to *my* problem, and that’s all I care about. Right? Right?!!?!
“at times ignoring the crappiness of their surroundings.”
more like all the time ignoring it 🙂 I takes a certain person to beat the odds but it takes a even stronger willed person keep the eye on the prize when constantly being slap down by everything around you.
being able to just adapt is just a struggle, to blinder the view and get that gold takes more than one extra level.
Chicagobull,
I for one will disagree 200%. The suburbs are seeing more of a reverse migration to the city, for what i’ve seen. My generation of individuals ( 24-30 ) Far prefer living in the city to the suburbs. this may change when they have babies, but has been stable for some time now. Miami and Chicago are not becoming warzone and section 8 is not going to take over lincoln park. relax. Section 8 has been around in crappy areas and nice areas forever, and if anything, we’re seeing a ton more of it in the burbs… the city is vastly different today than in the 80’s. do you remember what south loop, fulton market, bucktown, west town, etc, were like 15 -20 years ago? come on.
There should be a limit to the doomsday talk here, let’s not get ridiculous.
Chicagobull,
I for one will disagree 200%. The suburbs are seeing more of a reverse migration to the city, for what i’ve seen. My generation of individuals ( 24-30 ) Far prefer living in the city to the suburbs. this may change when they have babies, but has been stable for some time now. Miami and Chicago are not becoming warzone and section 8 is not going to take over lincoln park. relax. Section 8 has been around in crappy areas and nice areas forever, and if anything, we’re seeing a ton more of it in the burbs… the city is vastly different today than in the 80’s. do you remember what south loop, fulton market, bucktown, west town, etc, were like 15 -20 years ago? come on.
There should be a limit to the doomsday talk here, let’s not get ridiculous.
Chicagobull-
“People are going to be sick of living in the city and Suburbs are going to have a second renaissance like the early 80’s.”
Have you looked at the markets in some of the suburbs you speak of? While they may be a bargain in price- are they really worth the risk? School funding is a problem in many of them and they are getting foreclosed on and sold off the same way many of these condos are .
“Imagine how bad Chicago is going to be when the poors start moving into LP, Lakeview, Bucktown, and the rest of the GZ through deals just like this one. Degentrification, and now, a better term I just thought up, Freegentrification where the poors just move into your neighborhood and building for free or 1/20th of what you paid. ”
– Really….”The poors”? Rather than reward your melodramtic overstatements- I’ll just call you out and leave it at that.
“Absolutely. And guess which way that mobility is going for the majority of residents, particularly those who bought real estate at the wrong time within the past decade? ”
haha, never really thought of it like that, i guess. good point. hopefully there’s a change in direction in the next decade.
We have enough crazies in the building – we don’t need to have them certifiable before they walk in the door! 🙂 I have nothing against the mentally ill but as most in the building are probably thinking I wasn’t intending on living in a ‘group home’ type atmosphere with them nor do i want this to make the property value go down. Hopefully this gets squashed.
“haha, never really thought of it like that, i guess. good point. hopefully there’s a change in direction in the next decade.”
There will be – people here tend to think that nobody has jobs or money and the world is coming to an end. You and I know differently. However, you are not going to convince most people on here that is the case. Trust me – don’t set yourself up for the barrage of insults that are going to be heading your way Riz
“There will be – people here tend to think that nobody has jobs or money and the world is coming to an end. You and I know differently. However, you are not going to convince most people on here that is the case. Trust me – don’t set yourself up for the barrage of insults that are going to be heading your way Riz”
I know where you’re coming from. The economic/job/real estate situation right now is in the dumps, but i’m a firm believer in the fact that we’ll see a turnaround. maybe not in the next 3, 5, 7 years, but i’d say 10 is realistic. then again, i’m no expert. I’m used to/ good at absorbing insults, gotta have thick skin on the internet , you know that clio!
I think lower priced condos are going to be a thing of the past. What I mean by that is it used to be condo ownership in big cities was luxury housing for the most part. At some point, it transformed into a vehicle for first time home buyers.
I think we will see buildings that catered to the empty nester set or true luxury buildings will thrive while the faux lux buildings will eventually falter. It has been pretty well established that the typical 2/2 built today is not geared towards long term ownership. With appreciation out of the question in the short term, I think young buyers are getting the message that RE is a long term play and will put off buying condos and continue to rent until they can afford to buy a real place versus a glorified apartment.
I also think we will see better rental options for the higher income set who want the Graniteel but don’t want to deal with home ownership. Most don’t like renting because of the crappy Depaul student/frat boy apartment vibe most rental places give off.
In some areas, we very well could see a DEgentrification. Regardless, the Exurbs are also going to turn into European tract home ghettos too.
Can we stay on topic here? The fact of the matter is this is how you lose a battle — scapegoat the poor, who have nothing to do with the fact that the developer is trying to sell 19 units to be rentals and drive the property values down.
The poor are not doing this to you . . . it’s the developer who is trying to screw you.
Russ,
really well informed post. Most professional 25-35 year olds are getting sick of the rental options, which has kept the sales of cookie cutter loft/cement ceiling construction of buildings like RD 659 fueled pre real estate bubble burst. I for one don’t plan on buying anything until I can afford something worth owning for a while..
As far as burbs go, some are already ghetto and will probably get worse
( aurora, bridgeview..Etc) – but I really doubt areas like oakbrook, naperville, winnetka, lake forest, etc are turning into euro- ghettos anytime soon though.
It is extraordinarily difficult to move up the ladder when your culture, family, friends, peers, etc encourage you not to. After factoring in teen pregnancy, out of wedlock births, broken homes, dysfuctional families, poor financial habits, encouragement to ‘work’ instead of staying in school, etc…..yeah, its real tough to get out of the ghetto. Mobility was easier in the past but in today’s society it is rather difficult. So no sir he is not an idiot. Maybe if you took a sociology class instead of O-chem you would have a better picture of how the real world is out of the small town in Mi in which you drove your M3. The poor are real, all too real in many cases for me.
“With appreciation out of the question in the short term, I think young buyers are getting the message that RE is a long term play and will put off buying condos and continue to rent until they can afford to buy a real place versus a glorified apartment.”
You would be surprised at how short people’s memories really are. Also, you would be surprised at how many people are not fully aware of real estate issues out there (and how many people really DON’T care about them – they just want to own and live where they want to live).
Imagined social mobility is quite high in the US; real social mobility is lower than much of the Western world, along with it a stronger link between parental and individual earnings.
Chicagobull’s fears are not without basis, as the last time income inequality was this great in the US, the rich openly feared class warfare, and anarchist and Communist movements abounded. That being said, I don’t think we have to worry about it. So long as the vast majority of Americans believe they have a good chance at social mobility, we won’t have to worry about class warfare any time soon.
“It is extraordinarily difficult to move up the ladder when your culture, family, friends, peers, etc encourage you not to. After factoring in teen pregnancy, out of wedlock births, broken homes, dysfuctional families, poor financial habits, encouragement to ‘work’ instead of staying in school, etc…..yeah, its real tough to get out of the ghetto. Mobility was easier in the past but in today’s society it is rather difficult. So no sir he is not an idiot. Maybe if you took a sociology class instead of O-chem you would have a better picture of how the real world is out of the small town in Mi in which you drove your M3. The poor are real, all too real in many cases for me.”
Actually i’m from indiana, not michigan, and i drove a 91′ accord in high school, thanks very much., Also, I was a sociology major in college, so took a lot more sociology courses than chem ones ( actually got a C in O-chem, not my best class. ) , so i’ll stick with my comment that he’s an idiot.
I’ve volunteered and worked closely with the poorer community in the city my whole life, and I work with them every day at my hospital. Teen pregnancy and broken homes are a real problem, and so is violence, we’re not in disagreeance there. That’s not my point though – my point is that people that are truly driven to get out of the ghetto CAN. In this country, if you want to study, work hard, and not get pregnant or join a gang ( i mean, even in the worst inner city schools, education programs are in place to teach kids about this stuff ) you CAN. The town i went to high school was dirt poor and based on a steel-mill economy, yet even there many super ‘poor’ kids went to college and created a better life for themselves. Same can be said for chicago. the opportunities are there for those who want them. I don’t make excuses for people.
“doubt areas like oakbrook, naperville, winnetka, lake forest, etc are turning into euro- ghettos”
Of course not. But Plainfield, Elgin, Carpetnersville, Crystal Lake, Bolingbrook, etc. etc. are at potential risk. And you can pretty well write off most of the south suburbs.
Feel free to read stories about the German anarchists protesting and marching past the home of Marshall Field in the late 1800’s.
There won’t be much class warfare because the poor are too disorganized you will however see lots of crime against the rich. Many neighborhoods on the nw are experiencing a renassiance of burglaries and armed robberies, so to speak. Criminals travelling from the poor area to the rich areas to steal rich people’s assets.
“Criminals travelling from the poor area to the rich areas to steal rich people’s assets.”
I have seen more of this lately. A friend and II were robbed on NYE in fulton market. Though not sure if this counts as a ‘rich area’ or not.
“A friend and II were robbed on NYE in fulton market. Though not sure if this counts as a ‘rich area’ or not.”
hah no
fair enough, i only wondered if it was ‘rich’ or not bc of some of the super pricey condos that were going up in the vicinity around boomtime.
still quite an industrial area, would definentally not consider it a “rich area” although if you wanted to live there it wouldn’t be cheap as there are quite a few unique loft spaces around there
the other issue about leaving the ghetto, which will sound really foreign to most of you, is that once you leave you can never look back. You may have left the ghetto and got a good education but your family and friends will look at you like a sell out. Your friends and family will still have teh same problems they had before you left: out of wedlock births, teen pregnancy, poor finances, a relative or two in prison, dangerous neighborhoods, gangs, violence, etc. They will continually draw you back in asking for money, asking for help, asking for assistance, etc. It becomes extraordinarily difficult to maintain relationships with everyone and everything you knew or grew up with after you leave. Its like taking on an entirely new life, in some aspects.
Furthermore, when you are out there in the world, outside of the ghetto, you receive no help at all. Riz drives an M3 and if it breaks down he pulls out the credit card and pays the mechanic. Someone else pays the bill. WHen you’re in school, you can make a phone call for financial help, or emotional help, if needed. Theres always something to fall back on. If you grow up in the ghetto, you got nothing. Nobody can help you, nobody knows how to help you, everyone has got their own problems to deal with. its a cold harsh world out there.
I think the difficulties with social and economic mobility are pretty well summed up by the fact that so few people do it. Its not that it is impossible, it’s just that it is extraordinarily difficult that few people are actually successful.
Word that Homedelete
“and economic mobility ”
and economic UPWARD mobility.
Plenty of people are moving down the ladder these days, drawn by the siren call of real estate and enabled by low downpayment mortgage loans that made it all possible.
In theory, crawling out of the ghetto is pretty easy. Work hard, stay in school, stay on right side of the law, and don’t make dumbass mistakes like getting preggo. But like most things, it is a lot harder to do especially when everyone around you is making those mistakes.
If you are surrounded by successful people, you most likely will be successful as well. IF you are surrounded by thugs, you most likely are going to be a thug.
It takes very good parenting and support systems to break that cycle in our current social environment. THe reason mix income housing is pushed is because when poorer people are around people who are better off, they adapt to the habits that make people successful, not the habits that make people poor. This was how it was decades ago, particularly in minority communities. Doctors lived next to teachers and blue collar workers. The problem now is that the professionals have moved on in combination with piss poor schools and the break down of the family structure (single moms) creates a culture of underachievement.
The only solutions are a tougher stance on unacceptable behaviors, fixing the school system so it can act as a surrogate to bad parenting, and helping people see a clear road map to success. It is kind of hard to aspire to work on Wall Street if you don’t even know that it exists.
In the hood, people are like I hope I can just get out of high school whereas in some suburban communities parents are already plotting how to get their kid into HYP when they are in third grade.
I grew up on both sides of the track and the only thing that kept me from screwing up was my parents (mom & dad, while my friends didn’t have too many fathers around) clearly pointed out the cause and effect of staying in school and future income.
I mean, i don’t mind being used as a constant example here, but to set facts straight, i’m a grown adult with a career, never had a nice car in high school, college, or much of grad school even.
anyways, Like i said, i don’t make excuses for people. i understand that getting ‘out’ of the ghetto isn’t easy. however, becoming successful isn’t easy even if you’re middle class – it always requires hard work and dedication. Everyone has problems, whether they are social, financial , academic, or emotional. The more we make excuses for people from low income backgrounds, the longer society will continue to expect less from them. Of course the rate of success coming out of the ghetto is a low one, but it is a possibility for those who work hard – more than we can say for other places in the world. That has been my point all along. Again, I don’t make excuses for people. Go to school, don’t get pregnant, go to college. get a job. It’s not that difficult. If we continue to act like that simple formula is ‘too hard’ for a person from the ghetto, then they WONT ever leave the ghetto.
Russ,
[Groove77 stands and starts a slow clap]
i stand by everything you right now, and its what i have always been trying to say, you just typed i clearly and gramtikallie correct.
Oh please, these sob stories are exactly what the left leaning media wants everyone to believe. My mom has a 9th grade education, had my brother when she was 16 and me when she was 20. I grew up in a trailer park surrounded by drunken white trash morons. I’m not rich, but I’m pulling close to a quarter mil and my brother’s pulling close to half a mil, which gives us decent middle class lifestyles that my mom would never have imagined possible. But both of us made tremendous sacrifices and busted our butts to break the white trash cycle.
Everybody today has a looming sense of entitlement and victim mentality, such that if they want something they would rather either take it through the government or by direct force and would rather complain about being a victim rather than investing in themselves. I remember looking at an ’83 Monte with the engine block hanging off a swingset across the trailer park from our trailer and wondering what the hell I would have to do get as far away from that crap as possible, and upon realizing working hard was the answer, started busting my tail. It’s no different than scaring college kids straight with manual labor jobs during the summer. Some people get the message, others don’t and end up lower on the economic ladder.
“’m pulling close to a quarter mil and my brother’s pulling close to half a mil, which gives us decent middle class lifestyles”
“Middle class” at $450k per? Funny guy.
“an ‘83 Monte with the engine block hanging off a swingset”
They were swapping the 305 for a 350, right?
I don’t think being “poor” is just the issue. My dad’s family lived in public housing until he was 5. His parents were married very young, but they both worked their way up to the point that his family was upper middle class by the time he was an adult. His parents decided together that they didn’t want to be poor, so they worked hard and became fairly well off.
Basically, it’s simple, don’t get pregnant before you’re in a committed relationship (or are wealthy enough to raise it on your own) and don’t commit crimes. Somehow, I have survived to 30 without getting pregnant or going to prison. It’s not that difficult to avoid.
My income is far below that of most of my friends, but that’s my choice. I suppose I’m not considered poor, but I feel poor compared to others. I would much rather have a relaxing life without a fancy car or huge house than work such long hours that I can’t enjoy life’s luxuries anyway.
“My generation of individuals ( 24-30 ) Far prefer living in the city to the suburbs.”
This has much more to do with herd mentality for mating purposes (finding a mate). Once that is done they hightail it out to the burbs as city living and raising children is considered untenable by most (who themselves were raised in the suburbs). Not saying its impossible to raise a family in the city, but the perception among many seems to be its very hard & the sacrifices aren’t worth it.
Contrast that to singles who live in the suburbs who hate it and wish they could live in the city. There’s very few single 20-somethings living in Schaumburg, for instance, who love it.
“They were swapping the 305 for a 350, right?”
ha i dropped in a 305 olds engine in a 79 caddy eldorado. heater not compatable so no heat in that beast.
but it was a superb ghetto cruiser in the non cold months, bad electrical too and went through three starters and those frickn things were like 75lbs not fun doing that job alone.
In NY, yes. When you give Uncle Sugar, NY State and NY City their cuts and put something away for retirement and pay a fortune for housing, there’s a lot less left than you would think. He’s pretty far from rich, but he will at least have a comfortable retirement.
I don’t recall what they were doing, but rolling a Monte with a 305 into our park was akin to cheering for Russia to win the cold war.
“Oh please, these sob stories are exactly what the left leaning media wants everyone to believe. My mom has a 9th grade education, had my brother when she was 16 and me when she was 20. I grew up in a trailer park surrounded by drunken white trash morons. I’m not rich, but I’m pulling close to a quarter mil and my brother’s pulling close to half a mil, which gives us decent middle class lifestyles that my mom would never have imagined possible. But both of us made tremendous sacrifices and busted our butts to break the white trash cycle.”
Thanks for that. All i’ve been trying to say all along. Don’t be an idiot, work hard, and a good life i possible. it’s not that complicated.
I don’t know a single hard working person that isn’t at least somewhat successful… the only losers I know are lazy, idiots who think the world owes them some sort of high paying job for some reason even though they haven’t done squat to earn it
“rolling a Monte with a 305 into our park was akin to cheering for Russia to win the cold war.”
The ’83 was only available with the 305 (yes, I had to check that), unless you got the dealer to swap it, or, of course, did it yourself with a swingset.
“In NY, yes. When you … pay a fortune for housing,”
When you pay a fortune for housing, you aren’t “middle class”. “Middle class” people in NY live in Queens and Jersey. It doesn’t make you less well off, just means you choose to spend your money differently.
RIZ stated: “I’m not rich, but I’m pulling close to a quarter mil and my brother’s pulling close to half a mil, which gives us decent middle class lifestyles…”
A quarter of million dollars PER YEAR is not middle class. It’s (lower) upper class.
Such intelligent pearl of wisdom coming from a 2nd generation med student who drives a $60,000 M3.
What other gems from the real world can you tell me?
“Thanks for that. All i’ve been trying to say all along. Don’t be an idiot, work hard, and a good life i possible. it’s not that complicated.”
“Work hard, that will solve all your ills”. Do you know how many hard workers I’ve seen fail, be utterly ruined, in the last five years? More than I can count. And almost none of them lost anything tied to real estate.
There are A LOT of smart, hard workers out there right now that are going backwards. There are more of them everyday.
I seriously hope all the “bootstrapers” on this site remember their idealistic H. Alger conversations the first time the national press starts reporting on college kids pulling home invasions and people starting getting mugged for their laptops on the way home from the Loop.
When the poors are all confined to economically depressed areas and are there because they’re uneducated, lazy, have criminal pasts, and are weighed down by children they can’t afford it’s easy to sit back in judgement while pointing out their lack of hard work. It gets a little tougher when smart, hard workers with nothing to lose start moving in next to you thanks to programs that subsidize their housing and they start scheming with their other out of work buddies on ways they can get what you have. Not everyone can open a Burger King or Quiznos or run a tech start-up. We’ve reached white-collar equilibrium. Too many smart, hard workers, not enough credit, jobs, and opportunity to go around.
Like I’ve said many times before, I’ve got an out. I’m leaving for the middle of nowhere when the heat gets kicked up if the next few years.
I’ll stop here, I scare myself the more I think about it.
I hope my soon-to-be insane neighbors arent as nutty as you 🙂
“Like I’ve said many times before, I’ve got an out. I’m leaving for the middle of nowhere when the heat gets kicked up if the next few years.”
Do you expect to retain your current standard of living in the middle of nowhere, if your “everyone will be out to get the haves” fever dream comes to fruition?
anon, don’t waste your time with this clown
anon – he has land in montana. all he needs is guns, ammo, gold and some canned food. He’ll be just fine.
“Such intelligent pearl of wisdom coming from a 2nd generation med student who drives a $60,000 M3.
What other gems from the real world can you tell me?”
You bring up my car. A lot. M3’s turn you on much? Did you want one as a kid or something?
I’m not a med student, I’m a resident. But I guess i’m a student in the sense that i’m finishing up my masters this year, anyways, not relevant.
I guess the only people that can have opinions are washed up lawyers who think they know something about the ‘hood’ ?
My favorite thing about chicagobull/ Bob # 2 is that he refers to people as ‘the poors’ . what the heck is that?
HD,
PS. I worked 93 hours last week, most of it putting femoral lines in gangbangers and holding the pager for ER residents at cook county. what did you do? i’d love for you to teach me about the real world.
I love how people who live in high rises downtown aka ivory towers pass judgment on the poor and blame them for their condition. that’s the thing about being ignant – you dont’ even know it. There is plenty of blame to go around but an awful lot of it comes down to the baby lottery like somebody said above.
I come from very humble beginning (despite my numerous ‘millionaire next door’ type aunts and uncles) and I’ve found it extraordinarily difficult to move up the ladder. There’s always somebody who knows somebody you don’t, or has the money to socialize with different crowds, or has a better education because they went NT instead of Fremd. it’s extremely competitive and things like family connections, good secondary schools, access to money & credit, social networks and high income parents with assets are EXTREMELY important and give you the edge.
Sure it’s possible to be like barack obama and work your way up to the president but he’s literally one in 300,000,000 million. the people he’s surrounded himself with are all very wealthy folks from wealthy or upper class families with not so humble upbringings. You’re willfully ignorant if you deny it.
“#
Sonies on January 6th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
anon, don’t waste your time with this clown
#
homedelete on January 6th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
anon – he has land in montana. all he needs is guns, ammo, gold and some canned food. He’ll be just fine.”
It’s part of my “if everything *really* goes to hell, why do you think it will be different for you, even in your bunker on your ranch?” campaign. If nothing else, we could organize a Sherman-esque march across Montana to find him and take his No. 10 cans of pork’n’beans.
Also, I don’t expect a frothless response, and find the frothy ones entertaining.
“refers to people as ‘the poors’ . what the heck is that?”
Yeah, everyone ought to know it’s really “tehpouors”.
“Sure it’s possible to be like barack obama and work your way up to the president but he’s literally one in 300,000,000 million. the people he’s surrounded himself with are all very wealthy folks from wealthy or upper class families with not so humble upbringings. You’re willfully ignorant if you deny it.”
Nobody is telling low income kids to become barack, but they should aim for it if they want. Graduating high school +/- College is a start though. LIKE I SAID: DONT GET PREGNANT, or ARRESTED, GO TO SCHOOL. It’s not an exceedingly hard formula. They probably won’t become millionaires with this equation, but a job and reasonable income are not impossibilities or rarities. That’s not being willfully ignorant, it’s being realistic.
From: eStarAdministrator@lmsnet.com
Date: January 6, 2011 13:40:01 CST
Subject: TONIGHT, Thursday, January 6th – Meet the Alderman “Ward Night”
Dear Unit Owners,
TONIGHT, Thursday, January 06, 2011, is Ward Night with Alderman Burnett.
Please feel free to attend this weekly event to voice your objection to the
proposed ordinance variance by the Developer and Thresholds as discussed in
the Board’s memorandum dated January 5th to all unit owners on the issue.
Alderman Burnett is looking for feedback from unit owners on this issue,
which may be email, letter or phone calls also. The Board has already
communicated its opposition to the proposed ordinance through its legal
counsel, but the Alderman also wants to hear from individual unit owners.
Location:
1463 W. Chicago Avenue
Time:
7:00 pm – 8:45 pm
Phone:
312-432-1995
Participants are heard on a first come first serve basis so arrive early to
ensure you are able to participate.
Sincerely,
Aislinn Pulley
Property Manager
Riz:
“They probably won’t become millionaires with this equation, but a job and reasonable income are not impossibilities or rarities. That’s not being willfully ignorant, it’s being realistic.”
But according to you, you’re going to be a millionaire – you worked hard, didn’t get arrested and went to school.
Is it even remotely possible or even probable that the 17 year old kid from a shitty CPS high school, if he works hard, doesn’t get pregnant and goes to school – just like you – are you saying that he/she can be a resident just like you?
How many people from the ghetto were in your residency program?
“Sure it’s possible to be like barack obama and work your way up to the president but he’s literally one in 300,000,000 million.”
He went to about the fanciest private school in Hawaii.
“Sure it’s possible to be like barack obama and work your way up”
He’s not even a good example, because he attended the Honolulu rough-equivalent of Latin/Parker from 5th grade on, while living *not* in the Honolulu geh-toe, such as it is. He had a more “privileged” educational upbringing than you did, HD.
@ Riz: Also, the US has pretty high social AND economic mobility when compared to the rest of the world,
False.
http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_InternationalComparisons_ChapterIII.pdf
eta: damn you DZ.
You see, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that Obama went to the latin type school of hawaii. So that proves my point even further.
“But according to you, you’re going to be a millionaire – you worked hard, didn’t get arrested and went to school.
Is it even remotely possible or even probable that the 17 year old kid from a shitty CPS high school, if he works hard, doesn’t get pregnant and goes to school – just like you – are you saying that he/she can be a resident just like you?
How many people from the ghetto were in your residency program?”
I’m happy to reply to this post. I went to a CPS system myself. I grew up on the west side and went to middle school in the city, and a very low-end high school in the west suburbs, in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood. We moved to Indiana when I was almost a junior, finished my last 2 years there, at a high school overrun by kids whose parents were millworkers , town average income – roughly 35k i believe. Many, many of my friends from childhood have 9-5 jobs, some are only high school grads, but they are doing ‘ok’ in the sense that they have apartments and decent lifestyles. Many others are at dead-end jobs and were high school dropouts. A few have done exceptionally well – one is a hedge fund manager at TPG axon in new york. In my residency program, not many low income background kids – there are only 5 of us. At the hospital I rotate at there are an overwhelming amount of doctors, nurses, residents, and PA’s that come from very very low income background, hence they stuck around and work for the County hospital system.
Like i’ve said all along, it’s tough but not impossible. Not everyone can become a physician or a lawyer, but the opportunity’s are always there. It’s much easier to become ‘well off’ in medicine as the quality of medical school or prestige of residency program doesnt dictate income as it does in law school – i have many friends who are lawyers that aren’t making much money, but are doing alright – the ones who went to ivy’s are cleaning up shop.
my point stands. don’t get preggers, work hard, dont go to jail. in the very least you can land a decent job and lifestyle. if you work even harder and go to grad school, a better job and lifestyle. i stand by this.
@ Riz: Also, the US has pretty high social AND economic mobility when compared to the rest of the world,
False.
http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_InternationalComparisons_ChapterIII.pdf
Excuse my vagueness. I wasn’t thinking about Finland, Sweden, and France – amongst other countries where the healthcare system, job system, and education system is very streamlined and someways BETTER than America, but I was referencing the 3rd world, Where my family originates from. I don’t disagree that the social/economic setup in much of modernized Europe is better than the US.
Madeline, Thanks for looking up that article though..But it’s old news that those countries have better mobility than the US. I did a research article in college on “westernized’ countries and mobility vs the 3rd world and emerging 2nd world countries, ( ie, India ). I will post it if i can dig it up.
“There is plenty of blame to go around but an awful lot of it comes down to the baby lottery like somebody said above.”
“Sure it’s possible to be like barack obama and work your way up to the president but he’s literally one in 300,000,000 million.”
Hahaha you mean baby lottery like Barack Obama? Didn’t Henry Kissinger give him his first job? Didn’t Harry Reid call him “a great story of a well spoken negro”?
Don’t think for a second the powers that be haven’t been planning to play a candidate with the diversity card for a long time coming and he happened to win that baby lottery.
The rest of your “baby lottery” stuff is crap. It is entirely possible to break the cycle of poverty, it just requires not following the path of least resistance in life. Something liberals are unwilling to admit as they believe people are merely products of their circumstances and everyone follows the path of least resistance.
“eta: damn you DZ.”
Just trying to free up your time so you can do what it is that you do.
“I come from very humble beginning (despite my numerous ‘millionaire next door’ type aunts and uncles) and I’ve found it extraordinarily difficult to move up the ladder.”
Haven’t you moved up significantly in your generation? You’re going to be solidly upper middle class+ (unless you define the upper end of upper middle class so high that it has almost no meaning). Sure others have more advantages but why worry so much about that, and note also others have less.
I mentor a kid with no positive male role models in his life. School isn’t important to him. His grades suck, doesn’t take school seriously, etc. He is poor… Good kid and trying to say on the right path though.
I asked him one day if I gave him a treasure map and if he followed every step he knew he would find a million dollars would he follow it? His answer of course was yes! After he replied, I then said to him, so why is it when I tell you that it is important that you do well in school, work hard, and stay out of trouble, you don’t follow the treasure map that I’ve given you?
It was at that moment that I think he really understood what I was trying to tell him. It isn’t hard to be reasonably successful. His grades improved in school and I’m hoping he now gets it.
I was lucky to have parents that pounded that lesson into my head. A lot of my friends didn’t. Some did but they just made bad choices.
Ultimately though, I agree it isn’t hard if you can stay on the right path.
The biggest impact on me when I was younger was when I was registering for school at a lily white high school (kind of like being bused from the southside to New Trier). A janitor comes up to me sticks his finger in my chest and looks me dead in my eye and says “Whatever you do, keep your ass in school. You don’t want to end up like me picking up shit and trash everyday.” He then just walked off. That stuck with me.
“It was at that moment that I think he really understood what I was trying to tell him. It isn’t hard to be reasonably successful. His grades improved in school and I’m hoping he now gets it.”
The problem is many in his peer group are going to follow the lifestyle of fast money via the drug trade. It must be really tempting seeing them make so much $ and having all the status & women that come along with that (low level drug dealers actually don’t make much $ I learned in econ class). When you’re 16 and your options are working at McDs and being laughed at by girls your age or entering the drug trade and being an object of desire it must be tough.
If only more knew that very few wind up kingpins and almost none retire from that ‘profession’ free, rich & alive. Its a fast lane to death and/or imprisonment then poverty (with a felony on your record your future is McDs).
Wow – all of this class discussion and I missed it!!!! I need to get another job – one that allows me to be on Cribchatter 24 hours a day (anon, HD, Bob, sonies – what is it that you guys do and is there a job opening?)
“He went to about the fanciest private school in Hawaii.”
Not everyone is rich who goes to private schools. Latin in Chicago gives out scholarships to kids who can’t afford it. You just have to get in.
And clearly Obama’s grandparents weren’t rich.
The better example of the American Dream- as we’ve discussed before- is the First Lady. A true success story attending the best of CPS. From working class parents to the White House.
Actually- Bill Clinton is another great example. He grew up barely middle class. Somehow got himself into several of the best universities in the country (his half brother, Roger, as you remember, didn’t fare quite as well.) Was the dream not there for Bill Clinton too?
Bill Clinton is an anomaly – as for Barack and Michelle I dont know – something is very fishy about their background stories. As a high school student growing up in a predominantly african american neighborhood I saw first hand how many of the average and above average aa students were promoted by many of the black leaders of chicago – they get a LOT of assistance (not financial – but social and political). This may be a big reason Michelle and her brother went to such great schools (not that they didn’t also work hard for it). But there is something about Barack’s background that just doesn’t quite make sense. There were some people at Harvard and Stanford and U. of C. that claimed to be poor, etc. – but they were far more socially, culturally, and educationally advanced than most – I believe this was some type of hidden money or, like my parents, extremely rich people who lived very poorly. That doesn’t mean they were poor – they just didn’t indulge in material goods. Again, the point is that we really don’t know that much truth about the backgrounds of many people.
“I have seen more of this lately. A friend and I were robbed on NYE in fulton market. Though not sure if this counts as a ‘rich area’ or not.”
Yes- this is now a ritzy loft area with some properties over $1 million. It’s still considered “rough” around the edges though because during the day they still actually run the market there. But there are tons of trendy galleries, restaurants etc. over there now. It definitely would be considered a nicer area (not sure if you would define it as “rich” though.)
“There were some people at Harvard and Stanford and U. of C. that claimed to be poor, etc. – but they were far more socially, culturally, and educationally advanced than most – I believe this was some type of hidden money or, like my parents, extremely rich people who lived very poorly. That doesn’t mean they were poor – they just didn’t indulge in material goods.”
What are you talking about? It doesn’t take any money to get into any of these schools. Heck- there was just that story about the kid from Chicago’s south side who was living on his own (family problems) who was befriended by teachers and managed to graduate high school and get into a bunch of top schools. He got something like a million dollars in scholarships which will pay him to go through graduate school. Dirt poor! But he worked hard.
Bill Clinton is NOT the anomaly. I love how you can just dismiss his story. And no, I doubt Michelle Obama, a girl from a working class family where they had an apartment without enough bedrooms garnered much “political” attention. Pulease! Her teachers at Whitney Young actually told her NOT to apply to Princeton (didn’t think she’d get in.)
It’s about ambition and drive. That can’t be taught. You have to have it (and good parents doesn’t hurt either- as Michelle Obama’s apparently were.)
Also- I’d like to point out that Urban Prep on the south side had 100% acceptance to college for last year’s graduating class (yes- some of the original freshman class did drop out or transfer.) But it’s very impressive.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7314504
“Not everyone is rich who goes to private schools. Latin in Chicago gives out scholarships to kids who can’t afford it. You just have to get in.”
I don’t think Latin is need blind (anyone?). Andover/Exeter have tried it, not sure if still are. Anyway, I raised this in response to HD complaints about not having the advantages of education at NT, etc. (which he raised along with wealth issues).
“Actually- Bill Clinton is another great example. He grew up barely middle class.”
I think his family had more money than the impression he conveyed, although it probably varied over time and his home life was certainly not stable. I think he was solidly middle class if not upper middle for much of his childhood. Not Bush money, but not barely middle class.
“There were some people at Harvard and Stanford and U. of C. that claimed to be poor, etc. – but they were far more socially, culturally, and educationally advanced than most – I believe this was some type of hidden money or, like my parents, extremely rich people who lived very poorly.”
Is it possible they were actually financially poor but had skills that got them to these exalted places?
“Is it possible they were actually financially poor but had skills that got them to these exalted places”
No – their social upbringing gave them away – they just didn’t necessarily live in “showy” million dollar houses but definitely had mega bucks and power backing them up. This is more common a scenario at these elite schools. It was really surprising to hear my friends complain about how poor they were and then go to their hometowns and find out their houses were worth millions and they went to expensive private high schools.
I never said Latin was need blind. They have scholarships so the school isn’t full of the kids of Ken Griffin and Joan Cusack. I know someone who sent their kid there on such a scholarship.
Bill Clinton’s mom was a nurse and his stepdad owned an auto dealership. He went to Georgetown on scholarships. I would consider him to be middle class. There are no stories of Bill’s family having “upper middle class” arkansas money. I never said they were poor. But they had no connections. Bill got himself into those schools by his own ambition.
What about Hillary Clinton? Was she upper middle class? Her father owned a small business. Her mom was a stay at homer. They were certainly middle class but not super wealthy. At the time they lived in Park Ridge, it was decidedly middle class (teachers, cops, firemen.)
Clio- maybe you hung out with a different crowd. Wow. I know someone literally from the trailer park (parents still live there) who got a nursing degree and then went to an ivy league law school. No connections whatsoever. Family is lower middle class. Of course she said some in her law class were from families with billions. But that is what is great about America. She got into the ivy league law school based just on her own drive.
I’m sorry- I can’t help myself. There are just too many examples. What about Arnold Schwarzenneger? He could barely speak english when he arrived here. In the early 1970s he told his girlfriend he was going to be Governor of California one day.
Ha! ha! What a joke, right? That bodybuilder guy?
Who had the last laugh?
Oh- he’s also a multi-millionaire landowner because he started buying property in the early 1970s, including shopping malls etc.
I love America!
“I never said Latin was need blind.”
You said that “You just have to get in”. Which suggests that Latin would meet financial need of anyone admitted (I said need blind but mean need blind plus would meet all financial needs, a la H/Y/P etc.).
“Bill Clinton’s mom was a nurse and his stepdad owned an auto dealership.”
“I never said they were poor.”
You said “barely middle class”. Dealership owner suggests somewhere between middle and upper middle to me (I think upper middle gets abused where people who make $500K at moment claim to be upper middle), although I agree Clinton conveyed impression he grew up poor.
Bill Clinton didn’t get into Georgetown because his family “knew someone.” He got in because he bothered to apply. How many others even try? Bill Clinton is a great American success story. Create your own destiny!
659 Truth Revealed!
Having just returned from Ald. Burnett’s meeting,which was over-flowing with condo owners, the puzzle pieces have started to come together.
The key is Michael Szkatulski, Senior Managing Director of Real Estate for Mesirow Financial, moonlighting as the Vice President of Thresholds Board, and as of today, the MOST UNETHICAL MAN in real estate.
He’s come up with a financial engineering scam Wallstreet may have a hard time accepting.
Here’s how it works.
Problem #1
CPAN Units are almost always the first units sold in buildings, virtually 100% of time. “Purchased mostly by single white women teachers”, as Ald. Burnett put it.
Scam Solution #1
Szkatulski has Mesirow hold these units off the MLS, and tells any one who inquires they were “sold out”. There were people at the meeting who inquired repeatedly for an application for one of these units and were DENIED BY MESIROW because of the so called “sell out”.
Problem #2
CPAN strict code requires qualified owner/occupied units only.
Scam Solution#2
Apply for an ordinance change. Say they units are unsellable, and maybe grease a few palms if needed.
Problem #3
The Homeowners Association will strongly object legal action will immediatly be filed.
Scam Solution #3
Plan and file this whole thing in secret. Set up a meeting with the Alderman and City Counsel where Mesirow flat out LIES and states the bizarre perversion of the Ordinance is fully supported by the Condo Board and the majority of homeowners. Schedule a vote on the measure Jan. 5. (As you know the story broke January 4, the first time anyone on the board, or community heard of it!) The Board promply contact Ald. Burnett and City Counsel who immediatley put the measure on hold upon learning of the deceite.
This is where dare I say, as to date “the real estate scam of year” hits a snag. Ald. Burnett was flooded all day with emails and calls and
“You would be surprised at how short people’s memories really are. Also, you would be surprised at how many people are not fully aware of real estate issues out there (and how many people really DON’T care about them – they just want to own and live where they want to live”
I agree with Clio. One of my friends bought in this building in order to get that first time buyer tax deal of 2009. He was determined to buy the unit against all advice or news reports that were suggesting it might be a long time before he could sell at a profit. It was a bit of security thing, partly for status of being a RE owner. I allso think that he believed it was just the next thing on the life checklist at that time.
Thanks for the update from the meeting kinghippo.
What did the alderman say at the meeting???
“I’m happy to reply to this post. I went to a CPS system myself. I grew up on the west side and went to middle school in the city”
Riz,
not discounting your story or anything its just from assuming your age i know of no “middle” school at that time. and there arent any middle/junior high in CPS. well kind of but its just “advanced” 7th 8th in some HS i dont think Orr had one of those at that time.
hey every one loves a rags to riches story, and i for one love hearing peoples rags to riches life stories and lessons.
im sorry i am just having a hard time with yours, they whole poor on the westside but dad and other family doctors? and poor and went to med school and with that have med school debt yet roll in a M3 and pops new ferrari which replaced a 430 Ferrari.
now if you pops need to be close to the medical campus and you lived in a jackson row home just west of young HS i can get that.
also a hispanic western burb for your age in HS would be villa park but part of that is really nice.
well i am just saying i am usually wrong, so rock on riz and pay no attention to me
Thanks JP3 – I cannot tell you how many people at work are looking to buy. I am talking about people that make 50-125k and want to move up. They don’t care about taking a loss on their place or the risk of buying a more expensive place – if they can get a mortgage on a better place, they will buy. It is unbelievable to us – but very important to realize that the majority of home buyers are not as educated as we think – again, it is mostly psychology. If the sentiment of the country changed to “it’s definitely time to buy”, the flock of millions would start buying. It really isn’t that hard to figure out – but very hard to control!!!!!
groove, wtf? – I have always told the truth and yet you rag on me all the time. Riz talks crap about being poor while his dad has a ferrari and he has an M3 and you are “gently and kindly” doubting his story – come on – give him the hell that you give me. He can take it!!!
Thank god everyone that owns or is considering owning R.E. does not read Cribchatter every day. Prices would really tumble! This place can be depressing….
Good to have our CC Real estate Cheerleader back!
BTW 250k a year is not middle class. Just ask President O’Bama. It ain’t rich either but if allocated correctly that can and will make for an awesome lifestyle. The issue is that no matter how much people make they always think that another 50k or so would change everything.
Dang Dog! Anyway…
seemed extremely unimpressed with Mesirows shananigans at the meeting. My favorite part was when a “single white women teacher” told the Alderamn she was denied an applicaiton for CPAN because it was “sold out”.
Ald. Burnett, who was great at the meeting, has seen developers try all sorts of things, although he acknowleged this was a new scheme. Although he is not on the Housing Board, he does hold sway his ward and stated “he would not support any change to the ordinance without the Associations approval”. He also mentioned he has spoken with members of City Hall and the Housing Board who expressed support of his decision.
The issue is not yet killed however, and the residents of 659 will have to be vigilent to make sure it is, soon.
The Brilliance of the Scheme
If this scam were to work, I’d reccamend Crib Chatter form its own non-profit tomorrow and get in on the action.
Threshold would own 20 condos in a downtown core business district at a large market discount. It then rents the units out to its so called “clients” at reduced rates but still enough to easily cover its mortages and make plenty of easy cash. After 10 years, the CPAN restriction gets removed and Threshold is free to sell the condos and market rates, which it wont. It just turns into Thresholds cash cow. The value of the business has just increased substanially and even though you’re a non-profit, it certainly doesnt mean you cant give yourself a $100k salary raise with a new Range Rover for your troubles.
As a person who is sympathic to the so called cause, currently dealing with mental illness in my immediate family, IMO this has everything to do with money, and nothing to do with whats best for Threshold Clients.
I’d welcome your comments. Many of you who comment here have much more knowledge of real estate and legal issues than myself.
Kind Regards.
“I am talking about people that make 50-125k and want to move up. They don’t care about taking a loss on their place or the risk of buying a more expensive place – if they can get a mortgage on a better place, they will buy.”
How can they move up if they’re taking a loss Clio? I ask this in all seriousness. Do they have extra cash lying around that they can just throw at it and then do they have more cash lying around to put down on the new place? Because if you’re making $50k- how are you “moving up” without serious cash?
But maybe the key thing you said was what is holding this market back (and will continue to do so): “if they can get a mortgage on a better place, they will buy.”
That’s the big IF, right? They likely can no longer get the mortgage because credit is so much tighter. So they can no longer buy.
“But maybe the key thing you said was what is holding this market back (and will continue to do so): “if they can get a mortgage on a better place, they will buy.”
That’s the big IF, right? They likely can no longer get the mortgage because credit is so much tighter. So they can no longer buy”
It is very interesting – more mortgage brokers are starting to come out of the woodwork with better deals. I traditionally have always been a very main-stream straight, honest, upfront type of guy and always went the traditional route on mortgages and only went with the biggest mortgage companies – however my recent dealings with wells fargo have made me look at alternative mortgage brokers/lenders who have BENT OVER BACKWARDS to get my business – I am talking 90% LTV with no detailed appraisal and no closing costs – NONE and a competitive rate (4.5% on a 10 year mortgage for a JUMBO loan). These people ARE out there and once they become more popular, you will see that MOST people will buy. Again, it is not necessarily the purchase price, but rather the effective monthly payment that most people still are looking at. It is unbelievable but absolutely true.
“How can they move up if they’re taking a loss Clio?”
They aren’t going to be taking a loss. Sabrina you seem to forget that not everyone out there bought between 2003 and 2008. In fact, the majority of people out there bought before 2003. Most of these people have equity in their homes (even if their house decreased in value from their peak in 2005). So while they may have had 100k in equity in their homes in 2005, they may have 50k or 25k in equity now. That , coupled with some savings and increased earnings (compared to 2003) and you can begin to see how they can easily afford to move. This scenario is more common than you think. Again, NOT EVERYONE BOUGHT THEIR HOMES BETWEEN 2003-2008.
“Again, NOT EVERYONE BOUGHT THEIR HOMES BETWEEN 2003-2008.”
Clearly. But too often those who bought earlier have HELO’ed it to all heaven and are therefore underwater anyway. If there were so many move-up buyers, we’d be seeing it in the market. It’s not happening. If they can so easily sell- as you say- they would be doing so. But they can’t.
Interestingly- in the 3 years I’ve run this blog it’s much more common to see people trying to sell who bought within the last 10 years. I would say only about 5% of the time do I ever see anyone who bought, say, 15 years ago and is not underwater (and can sell free and clear.) Then we have the 1% to 2% of those who have lived there since before 1989 and it’s some kind of estate sale.
For the vast majority of the properties I look at for this blog- so those would have to be for sale- they were mainly bought in the last 10 years. But I cover a lot of condos- which tend to turn over quicker than SFHs.
Sabrina,
It IS really interesting because, when you think about it, you are absolutely right – the majority of the places you feature were bought (and some times many times) between 2003-2009. I live on a street where I am the only one who bought in that time period (2004). The next “newest” neighbor bought/built in 1999. The third “newest neighbor” built in 1994, etc. – and, there are MANY neighborhoods all around the Chicagoland area that are the same. These are people with a LOT of equity in their homes. I felt terribly for my next door neighbor who has reduced the price of their house from 4.95 million to 2.89 million – but then I realized that they built in 1986 and, when talking with them, they related that it cost them 500k for the land and cost 1000k to build their 14000 sq foot house!! So they were into their house for 1.5 million in 1986 and have since paid it off!!! We tend to forget stories like this (and there are just as many of these types of conservative people – in fact probably more than there are people who undergo foreclosure and heloc the hell out of their houses).
Sure- there are plenty of people like you describe Clio. But they are not mover up buyers. They are move down buyers. Who will buy their huge paid off house? That’s the question.
There are not many young buyers able to do so.
kinghippo and other 659 W. Randolph owners–
I live near a building that has many affordable units that are not selling due to increased lending restrictions (or so the Alderman says). It too is in Burnett’s ward. We have concerns they may try something similar here. How did the building learn of the petition to change the ordinance? Is there a website or place it must be posted? We want to monitor it. Also, was Alderman Burnett in on it? Any advice would be helpful.
“The key is Michael Szkatulski, Senior Managing Director of Real Estate for Mesirow Financial, moonlighting as the Vice President of Thresholds Board, and as of today, the MOST UNETHICAL MAN in real estate. ”
boy I can’t wait for Joe Zekas to come here and call you a liar… that is crazy kinghippo! I can’t believe some of these jerks that use non profits for their own personal cash wagons
Sonies,
kinghippo’s entire wild-eyed fantasy hangs on what he refers to as Problem #1.
The problem with his Problem #1 is that it’s simply not true. CPAN units were NOT always the first to sell. I know that for a fac from developerst.
Developers were often maladept (to put it charitably) at knowing how to market these units, and the city offered little help in making their availability known. You can see that from the all-knowing ones at CribChatter, who expressed surprise that these units existed.
You know, if you stop referring to me here I’ll stay away, and you and the other CCers can go on pretending that things are what they aren’t.
“im sorry i am just having a hard time with yours, they whole poor on the westside but dad and other family doctors? and poor and went to med school and with that have med school debt yet roll in a M3 and pops new ferrari which replaced a 430 Ferrari.
now if you pops need to be close to the medical campus and you lived in a jackson row home just west of young HS i can get that.
also a hispanic western burb for your age in HS would be villa park but part of that is really nice.”
Groove, check your facts again. there was a middle school when I was living on the west/near west side of the city, but we moved to the burbs around the time i was in 8th grade – not villa park, but closeby, good guess. Back then villa park was not that predominantly hispanic anyways.
my Pops was a anesthesia resident in the early 90s = salary was 27k at the time. not a lot of options for great housing in nicer areas anyhow, especially with 3 kids and a wife.. After he started private practice we moved.
As far as my other facts go, not anything out of the ordinary. the m3 was a med school gift ( yes, from the parents ) , I took med school loans against the wishes of my parents, ( tuition only) because I know i will be able to pay them off when i’m older, and don’t want to be more of a leach on them than i already am. If there is a need, i can ask the folks for help. My parents cars or financial situation otherwise has very little to do with mine. My old man is a car enthusiast and the f-430 is his vice of choice. It’s not the only exotic he owns either. There are indeed physicians in my family, some from poor backgrounds, and some from rich backgrounds, don’t see how that would impact my upbringing, a rich uncle wasn’t really much help growing up. It’s not a rags to riches story honestly, any resident with a non-working spouse and 3 kids is going to be pretty poor. Post residents lifestyles will pan out nicely with hard work and a private practice.
Thanks for asking though. =)
HD,
also just double checked the CPS website, here’s a link to my old school’s website. it’s quite a bit older than me. Think 1800’s. I knew those urinals were ancient.
http://www.cps.edu/Schools/Pages/school.aspx?unit=2060
sorry, mean to reference Groove* on the last post. not HD, =D
Anyone complaining about this deserves it b/c they obviously didn’t do their homework on what is likely the biggest investment of their life so far. If you researched the property, you would have learned that 10% of the building was reserved for low-income residents. why do you think you got those below mkt rates from Nat City? Did you think you were just a good deal finder and there was no catch? I own a couple buildings in the city and it still amazes me how naive some owners are.
“Post residents lifestyles will pan out nicely with hard work and a private practice.”
Riz,
again, I completely disagree. You are going to be surprised at how much MORE money you spend than your parents (even if you make similar amounts). This is because they were probably used to not living so extravagantly and were able to live in a rental/small house, probably not spend so much money on clothes/furniture, etc. You, on the other hand, have been exposed to a wealthy lifestyle and will continue to live like that – and that, my friend, costs a LOT more money than you think. Remember, it is really easy going from a chevy to an M3 but it is REALLY hard and virtually impossible to go from an M3 to a chevy (especially if you have the means). Wait ten -fifteen years. I am telling you all of this because I see a lot of myself in you 15 years ago. I really wish I knew then what I know now….
“groove, wtf? – I have always told the truth and yet you rag on me all the time. Riz talks crap about being poor while his dad has a ferrari and he has an M3 and you are “gently and kindly” doubting his story – come on – give him the hell that you give me. He can take it!!!”
Clio,
my internet homeboy, i never give ribbings for your stories, thats others, i rag on you when you say things and get into your “high and mighty/better than thou” moods.
i dont think i have doubted your random internet persona. and i usually stick up for you against poster that take cheap shots and low blows at ya.
now i do try to point out and emphasize situations you end up in to help you get that “ah ha” moment on why things around are they way they are. (call me Dr Phil if ya like).
this is not saying if Riz responds with more inconstancies that me and Anon (ufo) will not open the flood gate and entertain the troops.
no i work hard on my Fake internet persona and i hope that hard work shows up in what the groovester types 😉
“kinghippo’s entire wild-eyed fantasy hangs on what he refers to as Problem #1.
The problem with his Problem #1 is that it’s simply not true. CPAN units were NOT always the first to sell. I know that for a fac from developerst.”
Joe Z,
i dont think the problem is problem #1 i think its more of;
The key is Michael Szkatulski, Senior Managing Director of Real Estate for Mesirow Financial, moonlighting as the Vice President of Thresholds Board.
Riz,
cool your pops must have been a resident at st mary’s (guessing because of location of school). like i said i wasnt trying to “slam” your stories and you owe me no facts or proof of them. i just saw a few things that didnt sit right with me thats all.
i know frankln park and melrose park northlake in early 90’s started turning mexican (not hispanic) and part of villa park by mid 90’s. so by just guessing your age and time frame i went with villa park as it would be a nicer option for a doctor.
and to be clear, i will never discount the hard work it took and is taking for you to be a doc in any field of docs. its hard work that pretty much takes up your 20’s and 30’s, which is why clio is trying to relive that time as he missed it putting in 90 hours a week.
Has anyone considered that this would create a scarlet letter on affordable housing? How willing will buildings be to have affordable housing units when there is the possibility that those units, in this case 10% of the building, will be used as a halfway house? The affordable housing program was intended to provide people with the possibility of purchasing a home, not as a mechanism for this or any other company to purchase deeply discounted units.
Groove,
thanks. It does take a lot of work. My dad was at county, but we didn’t live in the medical district, as that area was extra rough at those times, a lot of residents lived on the westside where we did as they got discounted housing there.
Thanks for the info, KingHippo. I wish I’d been able to attend that meeting. It sounds like Michael Szkatulski had quite the plan for those units. I also thought the drama surrounding the assessed value of the building was quite interesting.
For those not in the know, Mesirow appealed the original 2009 assessment and got the value reduced to well below what I’d consider the market value of the building (by about 30% if I remember correctly). The city then reassessed the building less than a year later for ~35% above the market value of the building (based on sales prices in 2009). Given that the developer probably paid more than half the property tax bill from 2009, but will pay much, much less of it from 2010 (basically only these units plus the retail space), I’d be interested to see how all that actually happened.
“Anyone complaining about this deserves it b/c they obviously didn’t do their homework on what is likely the biggest investment of their life so far. If you researched the property, you would have learned that 10% of the building was reserved for low-income residents.”
Themanwitheplan,
Hypothetically as a potential owner how would you be able to discover something like this?
“(I think upper middle gets abused where people who make $500K at moment claim to be upper middle)”
Or nearly $500k is merely ordinary middle class, because they *choose* to live on Manhattan.
“clearly Obama’s grandparents weren’t rich”
In what way is this “clear”? Honest question.
“He went to Georgetown on scholarships. I would consider him to be middle class. There are no stories of Bill’s family having “upper middle class” arkansas money.”
1. Getting scholarships and being rich are not mutually exclusive. I’ve known many people with plenty of family money who received academic scholarships.
2. Any stories of being UMC would have damaged his political brand, so *he* certainly would have never repeated them.
3. In any event, “first ‘black’ president” or not, neither Clinton nor Obama is a reasonable example for someone coming out of the geh-toe, barrio or whatever. Michelle is, and she had it “easy” compared to the kids who were the focus of the discussion–both parents there all along, dad had a city job, etc.
“Joe Zekas on January 7th, 2011 at 12:24 am
Sonies,
kinghippo’s entire wild-eyed fantasy hangs on what he refers to as Problem #1.
The problem with his Problem #1 is that it’s simply not true. CPAN units were NOT always the first to sell. I know that for a fac from developerst.
Developers were often maladept (to put it charitably) at knowing how to market these units, and the city offered little help in making their availability known. You can see that from the all-knowing ones at CribChatter, who expressed surprise that these units existed.”
Wow, I find that hard to believe. My guess is that if the developer dedicated 10% of one of its ads in one of the Sunday Chicago Tribune editions during the time the tax credit was available to announcing the availability of low income housing at well below market rates, it would have been oversubscribed by a factor of 5 within a week. Is there any reference to these units being for sale on their website? Given that the old pros on here didn’t know about this, it sure seems to me like the developer is doing everything it can to keep a lid on this to allocate the supply to friends and family. Oh, but no one would ever do that in Chicago, never mind.
“Anyone complaining about this deserves it b/c they obviously didn’t do their homework on what is likely the biggest investment of their life so far. If you researched the property, you would have learned that 10% of the building was reserved for low-income residents.”
First, you are confusing affordable housing and CHA. CHA units are for low income individuals. Affordable housing are for working individuals and familys who make below the median salary in Chicago. This often applies to teachers, librarians, social workers…often educated people who dedicate their time and talents to serving the greater good.
Second, my building has some affordable units. The owners purchased them and are owners like everyone else. They pay their mortgage and assessments (often better than the rich strategic defaulters in our building). There is no reason to disclose that a building has affordable units as they are treated no differently than market rate units. Moreover, at least in my building, these owners can sell at market rate in a certain number of years (6 I believe) so their units don’t pull down the value of the market rate units.
The bigger issue here as Sarah points out is whether this bait and switch case will cause affordable units to have a stigma. If the building has all of its affordable units sold to individuals and is an established building (my building which is 7 years old), then probably not. New construction, however, with large blocks of unsold units, however, it will. The city should really think twice about lettting these things happen or it will be the death to their transformation plan. Very short cited on the part of the city.
As for CHA units, there should be some kind of benefit to those progressive owners who chose to live in those buildings….like property tax incentives. There should also be disclosure if the CHA units exceed 10% as this affects one’s ability to get conventional financing.
“The problem with his Problem #1 is that it’s simply not true. CPAN units were NOT always the first to sell. I know that for a fac from developerst.”
wrong retard, the problem is with the HUGE CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
If I pulled this sort of crap in my industry I’d be thrown in jail, I guess the real estate shills are above the code of ethical business conduct, not surprising you are getting paid hansomely to spread misinformation and propaganda covering their shadyness. How do you sleep at night covering up for these shiesters?
“There is no reason to disclose that a building has affordable units as they are treated no differently than market rate units. Moreover, at least in my building, these owners can sell at market rate in a certain number of years (6 I believe) so their units don’t pull down the value of the market rate units.”
I think there is a definite reason to disclose that 10% of your neighbors got their units for significantly less than you and are able to resell in a few years at market rate for what is likely to be a huge windfall. As a prospective purchaser I would want to know that little tidbit.
“Yet another example where government involvement in the free market always ends up poorly.”
Government involvement in the free market IS part of the free market. All actions in the market have consequences.
Sonies,
Conflicts of interest are not an issue when they’re fully disclosed to the parties concerned and signed off on.
Do you really think that Mesirow would sit still for a senior executive’s breaching his fiduciary duties to Mesirow’s investors by deliberately holding units off the market for years to sell them, as a group, for millions of dollars less, to benefit a charity he’s involved in?
Mesirow’s going to blow up its relationship with its investors and risk destroying its business over this?
Are you totally divorced from reality? Do you have no understanding of how businesses operate?
Are all these developers holding back units for malicious reasons? If they want to benefit friends and family, what are they waiting for?
The City Web site has lists of where the affordable units are and, as anyone can see, developments that have been active for years still have units available under this program.
http://www.findyourplaceinchicago.com/pages/cpan/34.php
“People are going to be sick of living in the city and Suburbs are going to have a second renaissance like the early 80’s.”
I agree with this to a large extent.
The suburbs have been beaten up, but a lot of this has to do with empty nesters / idiot boomers not needing the ridiculous house they bought at age 55 during the bubble. Younger families with kids who actually occupy all the bedrooms will certainly take advantage of this over the next several years.
I also think there is a large portion of urban yuppies who want to live in the city but believe they will have all the accoutraments of the suburbs. This is obviously a faulty expectation. Having mental patients in your building is 100% part of the city living equation. Get used to it. It’s only getting worse. City hipsters need to open their eyes and realize that if they want to have a family, compromises may need to occur.
If you don’t like it, there are some bargain homes on the north shore you should look at it. No mental patients renting homes in Winnetka last time I checked, and Hadley doesn’t count.
Why should CPAN purchases get to be sold at market rate? More specifically, why should CPAN owners get to keep the windfall of selling at market rate? Should that go back to the city/tax payers who subsidized the lower than market purchase? If you don’t buy your unit at market rate, you shouldn’t get to keep the equity gains.
Just sayin’…
“City hipsters need to open their eyes and realize that if they want to have a family, compromises may need to occur. ”
Here’s to hoping city hipsters don’t breed. They are the reason our government is about to raise our taxes 80%. City hipsters can take the Megabus to Brooklyn after they’re careful not to let the door hit their arse on the way out.
City hipsters will never make the connection that their inability to raise a family in the city without making numerous significant compromises has a lot to do with their consistently D voting habits (of those who actually vote).
Joe Zekas on January 7th, 2011 at 11:21 am
If they want to benefit friends and family, what are they waiting for?
The City Web site has lists of where the affordable units are and, as anyone can see, developments that have been active for years still have units available under this program.
________________________________________________________
A variance from the City.
LOL at the 1 BRs in 235 Van Buren for $500 off the public purchase price listed on the developers’ web site. I guess the poors aren’t as financially reckless as some of the above commenters thought.
“Just sayin’…”
There even used to be less restrictions on these things. There was a news article about some teacher who bought at least 3 of these and then flipped them at the first available opportunity (I think the lockdown period was 2 years back then). He made a cool quarter mill at least. All untaxed of course because it was his primary residence and he rolled the gains. When newspapers asked him for comment he said he did nothing illegal and no further comment.
I commend the guy for maximizing his utility and taking advantage of an obviously corrupt system. I’d be laughing at the marxist social engineers all the way to the bank.
Bob,
On this we absolutely agree. Every time I drive down Milwaukee, hipsters biking to work in sub zero temperatures piss me off.
And people are blind to the sate of the state, no doubt. The income taxes that are looming in IL amount to a legislative abortion for individuals and corporations. The property tax increase for pensions in Chicago will, by itself, likely increase property taxes 12-15%.
Yet entitlements are barely effected?
Fiscal conservatism is not exclusive to republicans, by the way. If Kirk can vote for gays in the military, blue dogs have their place.
I couldn’t find the original Sun Times article online from May 15, 2009 talking about people flipping these affordable housing units for profit but here’s a bone to JZ for having a blurb about it on his site:
http://yochicago.com/whatever-happened-to-the-affordable-home/8795/
Here is a webpage with a reprint of the original article:
Affordable housing units used to turn a quick profit
BY TIM NOVAK AND CHRIS FUSCO Staff Reporters
Posted:05/15/2009 12:58 PM
Affordable housing units used by many to turn a quick profit
http://www.chicagoclout.com/weblog/archives/2009/05/what_do_alderman_banks_beny_ga.html
Scroll down a little to see where it starts.
“Here’s to hoping city hipsters don’t breed. They are the reason our government is about to raise our taxes 80%.”
Are there that many hipsters in Chicago? Are they affecting politics or much of anything, other than presence of well-curated vintage stores?
The problems with IL’s finances with further exacerbate the growing divide between the haves and the have nots of the state.
“Are there that many hipsters in Chicago? ”
In certain neighborhoods absolutely. Luckily its confined to certain neighborhoods. I couldn’t imagine being a salt-of-the-earther Wicker Park/Bucktown/Williamsburg, Brooklyn and seeing my nabe changed by the infestation but luckily I don’t hail from there.
“Are they affecting politics or much of anything, other than presence of well-curated vintage stores?”
Unsure. But why ruin a good rant?
“We all know why Kirk voted for gays in the military.”
So what? The Republic Party could use more tea baggers and fewer tea partiers anyway.
biking to work in subzero temperatures isn’t bad. esp if there’s little wind. faster and more pleasant than schlepping on the bus/el generally. and milwaukee has bike lanes iirc.
the bikes on mich ave I dont quite get.
“clearly Obama’s grandparents weren’t rich”
“In what way is this “clear”? Honest question.”
Almost certainly not clear enough for your requirements, and depends of course on what rich means, but he was on scholarship, which I realize isn’t fully dispositive as it may not have based on family need and family need may not have taken grandparents’ resources into account, but I doubt the school would give a signficant scholarship (as opposed to admittance) if they knew his grandparents were wealthy. And he talked about feeling less well off than the typical Punahou student (which he obviously has an incentive to say).
“He went to Georgetown on scholarships. I would consider him to be middle class. There are no stories of Bill’s family having “upper middle class” arkansas money.”
“Getting scholarships and being rich are not mutually exclusive.”
And getting financial aid (i.e. found to have financial need) and being UMC not mutually exclusive either, certainly today and likely back in Clinton’s day (although don’t know about Georgetown specifically) with a reasonable definition of UMC.
Dear Joe Zekas,
To answer your question of what they were waiting for, the answer is simply “for the remaining units to sell”. They certainly would not have been able to sell those units had this announcement been made while they were still on the market, so when considering how business operate, it does make sense to hold out.
No one has suggested that Mr. Szkatulski breached his fiduciary duty to either Mesirow or Thresholds, or that this was motivated by malice. Rather, it appears that a very shrewd business decision was made with no regard to the well being of the current owners and tenants or the future of the affordable housing program.
Yeah, Joe. It could drastically hurt buildings with affordable housing units…the reputational effects. It was a short term gain for a tiny minority at the expnense of the larger public and other potential affordable home purchasers. You really just need to bite the bullet on this one admit that, while perhaps not illegal or a breach of fiduciary duty, was extremely selfish and immoral. It would help your credibilty if, on occassion, you could just admit your wrong. No one can realistically hold you accountable for this mans acts even if Mesirow was a client. No one could see this coming.
“It would help your credibilty if, on occassion, you could just admit your wrong. ”
Lol you’d sooner see Godot arrive.
In Williamsburg you can’t help but be struck by the sheer volume of grown men wearing girls jeans. Note to all you guys out there: Skinny jeans are NOT attractive on men. NOTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!
“In certain neighborhoods absolutely. Luckily its confined to certain neighborhoods. I couldn’t imagine being a salt-of-the-earther Wicker Park/Bucktown/Williamsburg, Brooklyn and seeing my nabe changed by the infestation but luckily I don’t hail from there.”
“although don’t know about Georgetown specifically”
Clinton graduated in 1968. At the time, I believe Georgetown was still men only and catered primarily to wealthy irish catholic families on the east coast. Clinton was likely an outsider in terms of this demographic.
All these “bootstrapper” legends are just that. My favorite Alger fable of all time was my roommate @ Chicago who was “from a poor cowboy family in Wyoming”. He had gotten into Chicago through sheer force of concentrated will, at least that was his hook on his application.
Turns out his grandfather was actually sitting on around a billion dollars worth of nat gas and his dad had a jet they picked him up in to take them to their mansions in Jax Hole and on one of those pink sand beaches in the Bahamas.
True “bootstrappers” are so rare that movies are made about them, folks.
Lol at the poor kids whose parents are but humble car dealership owners, and those children who suffered from want of a family office.
Most people that I know who grew up poor are ashamed of it. It’s a sore subject for them. It’s funny to see someone bragging about growing up with shoddy clothes, without enough to eat, and most likely an abusive household with a broken family. Because that’s what poor is. Poor isn’t only getting to go to Florida every other year for vacation and having a household income of only $50K.
Making it on your own in this country is impossible. People that say they made it on their own are lying.
@Clio:
You stated that:
“I am talking about people that make 50-125k and want to move up. They don’t care about taking a loss on their place or the risk of buying a more expensive place – if they can get a mortgage on a better place, they will buy.””
while pushing your pent-up demand size theory
—
Sabrina counters with:
How can they move up if they’re taking a loss Clio? I ask this in all seriousness. Do they have extra cash lying around that they can just throw at it and then do they have more cash lying around to put down on the new place? Because if you’re making $50k- how are you “moving up” without serious cash?
You and Sabrina go back and forth on when was the previous real estate purchase (was it less than 10 years ago? 15? longer?)
@Clio:
You again counter saying that not everyone bought in the last 10 years using your own address as an example.
” I live on a street where I am the only one who bought in that time period (2004). The next “newest” neighbor bought/built in 1999. The third “newest neighbor” built in 1994, etc. – and, there are MANY neighborhoods all around the Chicagoland area that are the same.”
—
Like JMM, you move the goal posts. I highly doubt that the neighbors that you are speaking of (I am going to guess in Oak Brook) are in the 50k – 125k income bracket.
just saying…
““It would help your credibilty if, on occassion, you could just admit your wrong. ””
Everyone here has a different style:
When choosing data points, Bob will pick the property on the “L” track and eventually in the face of overwhelming data just go silent (really heading to 4 pm Happy Hour)
Groove77 will take his ball and go home
JMM will move the goal posts and when that doesn’t work then ask you to supply data to support his arguement.
JZ CLEARLY is never wrong. …and if anything could prove he is wrong…if he can delete the evidence, then the evidence might not be so easily found and if and when called out on it, the reason for the deletion will be non-related.
chichow,
And then there’s the CribChatter style.
Start with a lunatic theory that bears no relationship to reality but that paints a developer out to be a bad guy. kinghippo.
When someone with any knowledge at all questions the lunatic theory, call that person a retard (see sonnies, above); deny what was said (see Sarah, above); call it something else with negative connotations (selfish, immoral, a bait and switch, per a local, above); take an irrelevant shot at a different developer (PermaBear); say something even loonier than the original loony thesis (Dan, above); snark (bob, above); pretend to knowledge you don’t have (Groove77, above); or simply lie and say that that someone destroys contrary evidence when wrong – chichow.
The CribChatter Code of Ethics does not allow engaging a non-regular with knowledge in a factual debate, especially if that person is named Zekas.
And somehow you’re above cribchatter Joe?
You’re here posting too – quite often lately too.
RE sales are slower this time of year, slower than usual.
You know damn well, homedelete, that I stay away from here when no one is sliming me or my clients without a basis.
At this point another piece of the CC style kicks in:
DON’T FEED THE TROLL!
DON’T FEED THE TROLL!
DON’T FEED THE TROLL!
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED ON THIS POST!
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED ON THIS POST!
– homedelete
Joe,
They have a basis. It’s just that you disagree with that basis. And you’re entitled to your opinion. Although the line between your opinion and an ad hominem attack is quite often fuzzy.
how many comments have you got on your website lately joe… feeling lonely since you ban everyone that speaks the truth about how much the real estate market sucks and how shady bankers and developers nearly brought the entire world economy down? Having fun creating all this content for yourself to enjoy and nobody else is buying your bullcrap anymore?
Yeah Joe, you’re the Hanoi Jane of cribchatter let me tell you… LOL
“It’s just that you disagree with that basis.”
No its that those who pay him disagree with that basis as their economic interests are not in complete alignment with current owner occupants. And JZ, predictably, shares the same opinion and basis as those who pay him. There is _never_ any deviation.
So at the end of the day I suspect it’s not so much Joe’s basis, but rather his clients and JZ just being the shill as usual.
Haha, i like the Hanoi Jane reference Sonies.
I like visiting yochicago once in a while, it’s a nice enough site. Joe seems to be a decent guy for the most part, i’ll never blame someone for advertising for a developer/bank/condo building/whatever, these are tough times and people need to make a buck, nothing wrong with that. But somehow denying that in RD659’s case the developer is not totally screwing the people of that building with this loony bin proposal is just silly.
yay for conspiracy theorists.
Is 267 comments a record?
“sell your soul to the CFR, Tri-lateral, Bilderberg crowd”
“yay for conspiracy theorists.”
Three Cheers, indeed.
Oh shi … here come the UN’s black helicopters.
“Is 267 comments a record?”
Nope.
lunatic?
kinghippo attended in person the meetings with Alderman Burnett. Did Joe Zekas?
“Start with a lunatic theory that bears no relationship to reality but that paints a developer out to be a bad guy. kinghippo.”
typo: “that people can’t believe in conspiracy.”
What else do you call the Daley-Emanuel swap if not a conspiracy?
“to act together towards some end as if by design”
If we go along these lines we should mention that the freemasons run the world, Zionists control the government, and Tupac and biggie are both alive hanging out in Jamaica somewhere. it’s all very fun and games, but when it comes down to the facts is pretty boring and often a lot of wishful thinking on the writers and readers part. No thanks.
“What else do you call the Daley-Emanuel swap if not a conspiracy?”
uhhhh nepotism?
Riz: you are very naive. I bet you think the Daley-Emanuel job swap is mere coincidence. Clinton said in 1992: “And then, as a student at Georgetown, I heard that call clarified by a professor named Carroll Quigley…” If you are too lazy to do some research or reading on your own, then it’s your decision to remain clueless. Quigley existed in real life, and he was a Georgetown prof. Start there before resorting to lazy ad hominems.
“Tupac and biggie are both alive hanging out in Jamaica somewhere”
I heard they bought Morrison and Presley’s old place, when Jim and Elvis moved in with Aquaman.
And Carroll Quigley–he bought a painting from the Gray estate and moved to Chicago, no? Middle name is Mike, right?
ps:
“to act together towards some end as if by design”
So, political parties are conspiracies? Corporations, too? Football teams?
Dan,
Don’t forget about The Pentaverate and the Col.’s conspiracy! Little known nugget of Pentaverate trivia: The Meadows is in fact on Flathead Lake in Montana.
Rahm is clearly Chi-town illuminati along with Kanye, Oprah, the Boss, Benny the Bull, and JZ.
anon, not worth your time..
I have a conspiracy theorist in my family and they aren’t the type to listen to reason, it’s like trying to convince a fat kid he doesn’t like cake. just looney stuff. it’s funny how far someone will go to believe a conspiracy with loose associations and a strong personal drive. Some of it gets pretty out of whack ( 9/11 was an inside job, government did it, etc..) Saw it a lot on my psych rotation, no point in arguing it, we’re not going to convince him he’s wrong, or vice versa..
“not worth your time”
So, you thought it wasn’t *funny*? Because that was the only goal there.
“Flathead Lake in Montana”
Isn’t that the real world location of Col. Stryker’s base, code named Alkali Lake?
“Rahm is clearly Chi-town illuminati along with Kanye, Oprah, the Boss, Benny the Bull, and JZ.”
Rahm was the only one of those I saw at the Calif el stop this morning shaking hands.
Rahm isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s that no viable candidate bothered to apply for the job. It’s not the best job in the world like the mayor says, it’s actually a pretty crappy job. The feds have your entire 5th floor bugged, planted moles, people are all trying to take you down or stab you in the back, you have to put together a diverse group of people and have them all agree.
Ask tommy carcetti
“Rahm was the only one of those I saw at the Calif el stop this morning shaking hands.”
The only one you *saw*. Which is the way *they* like it.
Rahm has no idea what he’s going to be dealing with. the aldermen and bureaucrats he deals with are mostly scumbags will take $500 political donations to give zoning variances, or, let developers upgrade their kitchens for clearance. Even the city clerk Laski was taking $500 pocket money per month or whatever (maybe it was weekly) so he could buy fancy dinners. These are your general run of the mill scumbags. The community leaders are in charge of crappy worn torn neighborhoods. The developers are scumbagds. The school system is failing. It’s going to be a real slap in the face from being the prez’s chief of staff or even a congressman, and definitely much differnet from being an i-banker.
Maybe Rahm has plans to be more aloof and run this as an international city or something, and stay out of the nitty gritty, but at the end of the day, the mayor is in the muck with the rest of them.
At the end of the day it is kind of a shit job, and I think that’s sort of why a lot of big city mayors end up being complete goofs like kwame, villarosa, marion, etc. And the paranoia, that somebody is bugging my conversations…the feds are going to be all up in there.
Rahm’s gonna waltz in thinking he’s going to run the place like Daley and he’s gonna be in for a shocker when the aldermen revolt.
You will need to work on your bedside manners Riz.
““I didn’t know who or what Daniel Brandt is until you made me google him, I just found his article loaded with facts, people, information that I hadn’t heard about before””
Dan,
as far as fact checking goes, yeah, i fact check. I like to know who writes what i’m reading. Due to your chiding I read the article and found it to be underwhelming. He may have a very high IQ indeed, that doesn’t mean he’s not looney tunes. I still think the article is mostly garbage. So what if clinton’s georgetown professor hooked him up with some ideas that helped him out? What is the big freaking deal? my high school biology teacher told me to study hard and i’d become a doctor one day. Is that a conspiracy? i don’t thin so . jeez. what a waste of 10 minutes.
PS, Dan, the article – it’s loaded with people and information you’ve never heard before because it’s a string of unconnected pseudofacts that aren’t relevant to anything. just to let you know..
HD, i’m always open to suggestions on bedside manner. 😀
Don’t be so dismissive. When the patient tells you something hurts or is uncomfortable, listen to them. Pretend like you care. Its more about listening to the patient than anything. Sometimes the patient just wants someone to talk to.
“HD, i’m always open to suggestions on bedside manner. :D”
Well said, HD.
I’ve spent more hours on call than I can count talking to the elderly about their golden days, or to lonely kids about pokemon . it’s not always so bad, and it’s my job to care. *warm fuzzy feeling in my chest*
I would settle for a non-illuminati candy who promised to make the trains run on time. (s)he wouldn’t necessarily have to deliver, just *tell me* that you’re concerned with things working the way they should.
@Anon,
More or less. It’s an odd place. One of those places that are so elite that the average person will just never hear about it. $100 million compounds that contractors were fired and sued for discussing things as innocuous as building materials used on the project. Cultist religious shrines built on private islands overlooking ancient Native American murals on sheer rock cliffs with outrageous mansions protected by armed guards patrolling the grounds.
I’m not joking about the Flathead stuff. Everything else is my sad attempt to be funny. Flathead is mind bogglingly weird.
Dan, can’t say I have. I won’t lie and google him to pretend like I do either. I guess more than ignorance, it’s apathy. to each their own, i’m not one to care much for government conspiracy theory, if you come up with some health insurance /medicaid/medicare conspiracies i’d be down though.
on that note, i’m off on the town. These are my last few days of vaca and i am certainly not spending them indoors, or sober, for that part. will check in with y’all over the weekend, depending on hangover status. Have a great night everybody!
OK, are there two “Dan”s? Or has Thresholds got a mole?
“Same with Gore.”
1. He’s not actually that different from his father, Sen Al Gore.
2. He spent most of his childhood in DC; he was never an average Vol in any way.
I don’t understand why all the negative comments towards Riz – his comments were non-confrontational and very rational. In addition, his response to your negative comments about him were overly kind and understanding. I would have hoped for a more “active” and “confrontational” discussion. Please remember this for next time…..
thanks for the backup clio.
can’t let every person who calls me a moron or something of the sort get under my skin, otherwise it wouldn’t be any fun posting here!
Mesirow had a great deal of difficulty selling the affordable units as they were studios and jr 1-bedrooms. Prices did not include parking. Affordable unit prices are comparable to market prices today, making them even more difficult to sell, as well as the market shrinking for this size unit. This just demonstrates the different ways developers will try to mitigate their costs. Buyers and owner beware and practice due, due diligence.
Wish this issue was over so we can get back to what really matters.. The crappy ISP in RD659. Sometimes you’d have to be “crazy” to call it high speed. 🙂
http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/article/20110112/CRED03/110119947/condo-owners-oppose-sale-to-mental-health-non-profit#axzz1Ato3HjvC
FYI, the plan was scrapped: http://stage.chicagorealestatedaily.com/article/20110114/CRED03/110119887/mesirow-scraps-plan-to-sell-condos-to-mental-health-non-profit
——–
“Thresholds CEO Anthony Zipple declines to discuss the decision, saying only, ‘It got complicated.'”
——–
On a related note, I wonder how this story leaked in the first place. Was it simply a good catch on Crain’s part, or did someone in Mesirow tip them off. I believe a number of Mesirow employees own units in the building 😉
Oh jeez.
So I just learned that Thresholds is planning on buying up Sheridan Road condos next – (where I own). Our property manager is urging everyone to attend the next ASCO (Association of Sheridan Condo/Co-op Owners) meeting on Tuesday March 1, 2011 at 7 PM at Shoreline Towers at 6301 North Sheridan Road.
They will also have a speaker discuss property taxes which went up for us.
We lived in a condo for awhile in Canada when I was growing up. My dad was on the board and I asked him to re-tell a story this morning about a troublesome crazy lady resident.
Apparently she had been causing various problems for awhile. There was nothing the condo board could do by law. One day she started throwing stuff off her balcony and onto the street. When they entered her apartment, what they found was that she had tiled the ENTIRE apartment including the walls, and was filling it up with water like a bathtub. Shortly after that she had some sort of “episode” and a relative took her to the hospital. Then luckily her family decided to sell her apartment so the board did not have to take the legal route.
I do not want to live with a bunch of crazies. I’ll be completely blunt about it. NIMBY. Nope. Nada. NONE.