Crib Chatter on Vacation This Week: How Many Luxury Condos Does Chicago Need?
I’m out of town on vacation so there will be no new posts this week.
With the weather improving (kind of), I will soon head out to various neighborhoods to get some new pictures and see what’s going on at Open Houses.
There’s also a lot of new construction in the neighborhoods, some outside the GreenZone, that I’ll be covering.
Meanwhile, yet another mega project will be announced this week (although it was already “leaked” to the Chicago Tribune over the weekend).
Related will show it’s proposal for the old Spire site in Streeterville.
Currently it’s just a hole in the ground.
According to the Tribune, Related will build two buildings on the site.
- A 1,000 foot hotel/condo building
- A 850 foot apartment building
The architect is the same as the one who did the One World Trade Center development in New York.
Here’s the Tribune’s sneak peak article:
Two soaring towers planned for long-languishing Chicago Spire site along Lake Shore Drive [Chicago Tribune, by Bill Ruthhart, May 11, 2018]
This announcement brings up several questions:
- How many million dollar condos need to be built over the next 5 years? In the last 3 months there have been 3 big “announcements” about skyline changing developments which include luxury condos priced over $1 million (the Holy Name Cathedral site, the renovation of Tribune Tower and now this Spire project). Are there really that many buyers?
- How many luxury apartments still need to be built? There are thousands currently under construction. Sure, any of these new buildings are still years away, but developers keep betting on strong luxury apartment demand. Will Generation Z live in these buildings?
- How many hotels does the city still need? New hotels continue to open, including Hotel Zachery at Wrigley Field and the new Moxy on LaSalle in River North.
- Finally- will ANY of these big developments actually break ground?
The 78 will break ground and take 20-40 years to complete similar to lakeshore east. One Chicago square is only two towers, so that shouldn’t be too difficult. The rental towers for each project should be the easiest portion to land a loan for since job growth in the greater Loop is strong. It will be more difficult for million dollar condos since there are double digit property tax increases in store every year for the next five years and some investors like myself would balk at paying the real rates that will be 3% in the near future.
Today’s “luxury” condos will be tomorrow’s “run-of-the-mill” condos. These new buildings lack the classic appeal of the places on East Lake Shore for instance. Boards of these new condos will have to work hard to maintain that luxury status. Look no further than the condos on Sheridan Road to see the future of today’s luxury condos.
You going to do some coverage down here in McKinley Park, Sabrina?
Jenny, very true. However, most buyers are not thinking that far out. No one thinks a building will be obsolete while they are living in it. Typical condo buyer keeps the home 5 to 7 years or so?
Most of the buildings that seem to have cross the threshold where maintenance is starting to eclipse the mortgage seem to have been converted 30-50 years ago?
“Most of the buildings that seem to have cross the threshold where maintenance is starting to eclipse the mortgage seem to have been converted 30-50 years ago?”
This is an interesting point of discussion. What is the exact “evolution” of a high-rise residential building as it ages? Given average market conditions, purchase pre-construction is often at prices below what it is worth when the closing occurs – hence flipping is common. The building continues to be desirable as “new” for exactly how many years? How many years before up-to-date finishes start to look dated? How much money has to be spent updating a unit in order to keep it competitive? At what point do assessments start going up due to age-related costs of building maintenance? And what does that do to the purchase price of the units? Does the appreciation start to slow compared to newer buildings despite upgrading individual units? Surely this does not go on forever. At a certain critical point, does the price compared to other like-sized units in newer buildings in the same neighborhood become so favorably low that it starts to experience a “renaissance”, especially if money has already been spent updating all the common areas? Property tax is also a factor. (New buildings have higher taxes.) At a certain point of an aging building, if it is of quality construction, it may attain the status of being a “vintage” building, so that it gains a new albeit different value. Evidence of all this is apparent from seeing selling prices all over the place for various buildings. Especially on the Near North Side, units in the same neighborhood with the same square footage in different buildings can vary in price by almost 100%, and this is not always obviously due to the difference in caliber of the building or the interior condition. It would be great if someone did a chart or a diagram of the evolution in prices of various buildings, with all factors given. Just from personal experience, I would say that if you buy in a new construction high-rise and choose upgrades for finishes and fixtures that reflect the most up-to-date styles (in other words, you would not choose espresso-finish cabinets or granite countertops now), you can expect to keep the unit for up to 12 years without having to do any renovations and sell with the “glow” of a new building still slightly intact. After that, if you keep the place for another 5-7 years or so, you have to expect to do renovations to keep the place a “contenda” and not be surprised at a special assessment. You can also start to see prices dragging compared to newer buildings. After 25 years, assessments will start going up faster than before, special assessments for sure, and prices will be depressed. I believe it is at that point where a building will have to determine its direction. It can either pour huge amounts of money in updating with special assessments, and individual units will maintain healthy prices, or the regular assessments can skyrocket, and unit prices will be continue to lag more and more. Or it can do nothing at all, and the building will go to seed and become “untouchable”. I’m sure this is not all correct and is a gross generalization. I would like to hear others give their version of this evolutionary path.
Who knows what the next amenity will be? Look at some of the older buildings and you see places without in-unit washer/dryers, without individual furnaces or air conditioners, without enough parking or any parking at all, or with archaic pet policies.
We’re starting to see luxury buildings that offer dog exercise equipment, dog washing stations, fancy bike rooms, electronic package delivery, smart home equipment built in, electric car charging stations built in, etc.
No one knows what the next must-have amenity will be and retrofitting old buildings for some of these luxuries is difficult (e.g. pipe system that can’t handle washing machines). A building without a washer/dryer in unit would essentially be worthless to me unless the building offered pick up and delivery of my clothes to be laundered.
Hey everyone, it’s been a while. Hope everyone is well.
Just a thought – from what i’ve noticed lately, there is a growing amount of what some on here would call ‘new money’ – People in their late 20’s to mid 30’s with enough money to buy 1-2 million dollar condos, who prefer to stay in the city, and value luxury/amenities over space.
This is again part of the reason that some of the tony north side suburbs are reaching bargain prices. Nobody is moving out there.
My wife and i moved out to the northwest-ish part of the city to have the space / a SFH on a nice block…but we really miss some of the fun of ‘downtown’. It’s not as easy to get to river north / gold coast for a date night as we had thought. We’ve been entertaining the idea of buying a 2k-ish square foot 3 bed in one of these high rises as opposed to staying in a SFH.
In my opinion, I don’t think the luxury market is going anywhere while the stock market continues to do well. I used to think that Chicago was largely a city of people who couldn’t afford million dollar apartments very easily, and luxury developments would stall. While some have, others are doing pretty well. Time will tell.
People do tend to favor amenities and luxury over massive spaces. While the trend is staying in the city, it remains to be seen if that is going to continue as Millennials will be having kids eventually which changes everything.
I do think they will head to the burbs looking for good public schools just like all the folks before them. However, they will favor suburbs with walkable downtowns.
I think the true market for these luxury condos are DINKS and wealthy empty-nesters.
Speaking of inventories, what’s up with the nice burbs? I know somebody under contract on a 3,000+ sq ft place in Wilmette for under $700k (granted, west side of GB, but still). We’re trying to buy a 1,500 sq ft place for just over $700k (not in CA) that needs updating. Is the boomer glut + taxes starting to have a big impact in the Chi burbs?
” + taxes”
I dunno where the next re-assessment will lead for the North Shore, but it’s going to affect prices on the northside of the city. Everyone I know in Lake View township is getting notice of ~30% assessment increases.
“Speaking of inventories, what’s up with the nice burbs?”
I have a friend who is listing her nice house in Winnetka, and after three price drops, if she gets full asking price at this point, after 5% commission, she will net $14,000 less than what she paid for it 15 years ago.
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1138-Hamptondale-Ave_Winnetka_IL_60093_M84577-37748
This is after she has spent probably $100,000 reinforcing the foundation on the house and having SpacePac put in, and other stuff. Meanwhile, the townhouse in Lincoln Park she sold before she bought that house years ago is now worth 50% more than what she sold it for.
I’d note that the tax rate (as applied to Assessed Value) on that Winnetka house is only about 7% higher than last year’s tax rate in Chicago. With Chicago property apparently headed closer to ‘true’ market value assessments, there’s a likelihood that North Shore will become *lower* taxed than the city.
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1138-Hamptondale-Ave_Winnetka_IL_60093_M84577-37748
The house has a very weird layout (Dont get the 2 stairwells)
I cant believe that Winnetka House. When I was growing up Winnetka and Kenilworth were the 2 most expensive and exclusive places to live between the coasts.
“The house has a very weird layout (Dont get the 2 stairwells)”
The only weird part of the layout is the two staircases. Never could figure that out. But all that is affected is that you can’t go from one bedroom at one end of the house to the other 2 bedrooms on the other end without either going down one staircase and up the other, or by passing through the master bedroom. This is not a big deal. Loss of usable space by there being 2 staircases is, of course, a waste, but it’s not like this house is lacking for space! A better explanation for why his house is perhaps not selling is that it is right next to an elementary school playground. If you don’t like the sound of children playing, this would be death! But checking out other comps in the neighborhood, it looks to me like this price is on par with other similar houses. It’s just shocking to me how prices there have stagnated. I always thought of the New Trier district neighborhoods as priced out of sight.
I wonder what the taxes were in 2003 on that place… 16k is outrageous
“I wonder what the taxes were in 2003 on that place”
Based on an assumption that the Assessor’s market value was a little below the ’99 sale price ($540k), and assuming the full ‘expanded’ HO exemption was available ($20k), then the ’03 (pay ’04) taxes would have been about …
$16k.
There is essentially zero chance they were less than $12k.
“A better explanation for why his house is perhaps not selling is…”
All three of the bathrooms and the kitchen appear to be small. One could call the bathrooms tiny, and there is no master bath. What’s the basement like? Can it at least be used for storage? I’d feel a need to replace the cheap stove and microhood right away, and that then begs for a full re-do, to fix the layout for my preferences.
I like it, I like the funky layout, and even tho the wall colors/paper are not things I would choose, I (mostly) like them, too, at least enough to not feel like I needed to paint before moving in.
That said, $700k+ (and $4k/month) is still not a small amount for a funky-cool house.
I’m guessing the part of the house from the farther-off staircase on back is a later addition, and that is the explanation for the second staircase. If you slice off that addition from the floor plan, you can see that this was probably originally a charming 3-bedroom cape cod house with perfectly proportioned rooms for such a style. What the addition did was to add three additional bedrooms and a bathroom (or 2 bedrooms and an office, as is currently set up), turning it into a rambling numerous bedroomed house. There is no way a 2,500 sf house built now would try to squeeze in 5-6 bedrooms . They would simply make fewer bedrooms and the rooms larger. Of course, a recently-built house would also have more of an open layout. (I’m sort of sick and tired of that term “open concept living”) Perhaps if the addition didn’t exist, and there was a larger garden instead, and the house was priced at $600,000, it would be more appealing to people with taste in older homes with character who didn’t need all those bedrooms. Even as is, however, I think the house is a great option for a “blended family” with multiple children (coming and going) who need all those bedrooms and want to be in the New Trier School district, but cannot afford to spend over a million dollars on a 3,500 s.f house where you would more likely find 5+ bedrooms.
“I wonder what the taxes were in 2003 on that place”
“Based on an assumption that the Assessor’s market value was a little below the ’99 sale price ($540k), and assuming the full ‘expanded’ HO exemption was available ($20k), then the ’03 (pay ’04) taxes would have been about …
$16k.
There is essentially zero chance they were less than $12k.”
Uh, taxes in 2003 were $10,861. Assessed value was $570k.
” taxes in 2003″
Crap, I did the math wrong. Think I miskeyed the Eq Factor.
“Is the boomer glut + taxes starting to have a big impact in the Chi burbs?”
I think that’s part of it, plus different priorities for millennials than previous generations:
1.) Wanting to be in more walkable urban communities in greater numbers with plenty of restaurant and entertainment options (this is the “foodie” generation) and being immersed in diverse populations
2.) Getting married and having children later in life (or not at all, which is happening with greater frequency)
3.) Increased ability/desire of the highly educated workforce to move to “power” cities and the relative stagnation of Chicago/IL compared to other hugely growing cities (San Fran, Boston, etc.). It used to be more of a given that everybody would “move back home” — now, not so much. One could argue this impacts all of Chicago, which of course it does, but by decreasing the total number of wealthy pre-professionals that could be buying properties, the locales that are lower on the totem pole (i.e. the North Shore) based on the two aforementioned shifts in buyer philosophies are more impacted.
Of course, increased property taxes are also a contributing factor as people consider their monthly payments as is the recently passed tax bill making those high-income individuals basically unable to get any tax deduction on their property taxes. And taxes in the suburbs can be ridiculous (although Chicago is catching up!).
Winnetka has beautiful homes of course, but doesn’t have the same cachet among the millennial cohort as it did in previous generations. People are shying away in greater numbers from suburban communities that have “country club” type feels, particularly in a metro area like Chicago where the majority of work in the high-paying fields is downtown (acknowledging that there are still large corporate campuses in the suburbs, but usually upper level managers are more established in the careers and thus older). Kenilworth used to have families moving in from a fairly diverse set of industries — now it’s basically just finance professionals. (Of course you have some physicians, attorneys, and C-level execs too, but those are less common).
Neighborhoods like Lincoln Square, Ravenswood, Northcenter, etc. with an abundance of SFH’s are the beneficiaries of this shift as are possibly inner ring suburbs with walkable communities (although a place like Evanston actively tries to enact policies to reduce property values — or at least create large swaths of subsidized housing — in an attempt to maintain populace from lower socioeconomic rungs).
It’s an interesting trend shift that will likely continue, especially as taxes continue to go up. Too much supply at the $1M+ price range on the North Shore and not enough buyers. Zillow says average home price in Wilmette declined 3.6% last year and the current market is “very cold.” But if you’re looking to move to that area now, you can get some “good deals”!
North Shore is still doing better than estates out in Barrington — those have taken a beating. As have estates farther up on the North Shore like Lake Forest which had something like 15 months of inventory on the market not too long ago.
Or maybe it’s not selling because it has small rooms and the bathrooms and kitchen all need to be redone. 735k is a lot of money for grandma’s house.
More broadly, while big demand pattern shifts probably explain most of the NS stagnation, part of the reason that these north shore homes aren’t selling has to be is that majority of them are remarkably dowdy, a fact the sellers seem oblivious too.
You have a whole class of homes that were last refreshed in the 1980s.
” part of the reason that these north shore homes aren’t selling has to be is that majority of them are remarkably dowdy, a fact the sellers seem oblivious too.”
This is absolutely true. I was recently looking at houses in Ann Arbor, MI, and noted the same thing there. Practically no houses there had been seemingly updated since the ’80’s. If I upped the price range, all I saw were bigger houses – with ’80’s interiors. I told people there that in Chicago, if you didn’t have the latest finishes and fixtures, no one would touch your place. They told me that Ann Arbor is a University town and that academics were not interested in “fashion”. But I didn’t realize that this was true of Chicago suburbs as well. When I started looking at listings in the North Shore, the vast majority of houses looked like time capsules from bygone decades. Most of the houses that do have the kind of interiors one sees in nice city condos are new construction that are charging an arm and a leg. At least this Winnetka house has a “quaint” quality that does not necessarily rely on having the latest finishes/fixtures, or having the requisite humongous master bath and open kitchen. Other houses in the area just look sad and tired.
Great example of a time capsule house:
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Winnetka/1548-Tower-Rd-60093/home/12584791
“Everyone I know in Lake View township is getting notice of ~30% assessment increases.”
My increase is over 60%. Everyone on this blog knows that market values have not increased 30-60% in the last three years. This city is literally testing the boiling frog experiment.
I’ll appeal like everyone else, and I’ll probably get a token reduction. This tax appeal season is going to be a huge windfall for the tax appeal law firms. The same law firms that will show their appreciation to the local politicians in the upcoming election. The Chicago Way…
“Everyone I know in Lake View township is getting notice of ~30% assessment increases.”
“My increase is over 60%.”
Why is this? Is this because of a change in methodology or is it the methodology that was in place catching up in some way?
“My increase is over 60%.”
How does your new ass value compare to what you believe your market value is?
Isn’t there a simple form you fill out online to file a property tax appeal for the city of Chicago? I did this a few years ago when I did not live in a big building like I do now that requires me to be part of a collective to file, and charges me my portion of the legal bill. As I remember it, there was absolutely no benefit to hiring an attorney, since the review process was done by a department of the city, and there would be nothing for the attorney to do other than fill out the same simple form you can do on your own. In fact, I remember noting that I got the same exact reduction in my assessment as my neighbors who hired lawyers to file for them, and it took me around 5 minutes to fill out the online form.
My RE tax bill has risen lock step with my home value. Paying about 1.4% of value.
“As I remember it, there was absolutely no benefit to hiring an attorney, since the review process was done by a department of the city, and there would be nothing for the attorney to do other than fill out the same simple form you can do on your own. In fact, I remember noting that I got the same exact reduction in my assessment as my neighbors who hired lawyers to file for them, and it took me around 5 minutes to fill out the online form.”
I think they offer automated comps for you to submit, but you can submit different ones. Could be some value add of a lawyer but I don’t really know. I did it myself in teh first round and got nothing, then used a lawyer for the next round of appeal and got a sizable reduction but I don’t necessarily attribute it to the lawyer.
Wow. I love that time capsule house in Winnetka with the indoor pool. I would pick that any day over something in Lincoln Square or North Center for the same price.
“My RE tax bill has risen lock step with my home value. Paying about 1.4% of value.”
last year should have been like 1.9% no?
I do think they will head to the burbs looking for good public schools just like all the folks before them. However, they will favor suburbs with walkable downtowns.
Russ – I totally agree! Here comes my Park Ridge plug…..
Wife works downtown and we wanted easy access to train. Quite streets, low crime, and reasonable taxes with great schools. Checked all those boxes. As for a downtown area it is small but growing. The liquor license issues of the past three decades did stunt growth in dining options but it is catching up now.
We have been there for three years and while we miss the Fulton Market it has been a great change for the family. Finally Riz we still find it easy to get downtown multiple times each month for dinners! Sometimes we take the train down and then typically UBER it home. From PR our train ride is quite similar to the drive time from say Wrigley to Fulton Mkt.
Wow. I love that time capsule house in Winnetka with the indoor pool. I would pick that any day over something in Lincoln Square or North Center for the same price.
Jenny and anon – That house has been on the mkt for years. Never saw it in person as it did not fit into our geographic boundaries. But it is cool and would be a fun place to raise kids. At least once they knew how to swim!
Vissi – Timely post on the Hamptondale house. That home was right next to the Hubbard Woods school site of the Laurie Dann tragedy.
Wonder what effect that had on that small niche of homes back in the late 80’s and early 90’s. I recall when that story broke not understanding why someone would be so crazy. Now they happen and it is just another headline.
Mental illness is a huge issue that has yet to be properly addressed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Dann
@DZ, “Why is this?”
I was under-assessed after my last (successful) appeal. Now I’m over-assessed. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
In Chicago, the assessed value has little actual relationship to the market value. So there is no point in comparing. That’s way an appeal is based on “uniformity” not “market value”.
As for a appeal lawyer… I did it myself and got nothing, then used a lawyer and got a sizable reduction. The Chicago Way.
“Now I’m over-assessed.”
Is your assessment (significantly) above your market value? By how much? I understand uniformity as basis for appeal but are you ass’d over market value or just more than you would like?
“As for a appeal lawyer… I did it myself and got nothing, then used a lawyer and got a sizable reduction. The Chicago Way.”
I had same experience though I’m not sure if it was more a function of the stage of appeal (to the assessor’s office v board of review).
There should be a system where you can do a hostile takeover of a house if you’re willing to pay >15% of ass value, or the owner has to agree to a reass.
More than 15% above ass value, I mean.
VB: “In Chicago, the assessed value has little actual relationship to the market value. So there is no point in comparing. That’s way an appeal is based on “uniformity” not “market value”.”
Move along folks, VB is still under assessed.
DZ: Weyl and Posner have included a complex treatment of your takeover plan in their new book as a semi-serious proposal. See the early write-up of that here: http://ericposner.com/property-is-another-name-for-monopoly/
@DZ “are you ass’d over market value or just more than you would like?”
I’m assessed more than I would like. I certainly don’t like a 60% jump. I’m not a realtor and have very little bases for determining the market value. My assessment is above the Zillow “Zestimate”, if you have any faith in that.
I appealed my property tax online without a lawyer and received a decrease without a lawyer. It’s about looking at comparable properties. I’m in Logan Square. I viewed properties similar to mine and listed them on the form the assessor provided. How they figure tax is based on sq. ft of lot and property, how many bathrooms and garage size. it appears that when property changes hands many times, your taxes tend to be higher than long time owners. It’s not a fair system so you need to be proactive. Here’s the form http://www.cookcountyassessor.com/assets/forms/resappeal.pdf
I agree with what “the DR” said – ( btw, what kind of dr exactly? I find using the professional moniker in a public forum, on a credit card, a license plate etc, equally douchey.)
From what my friends in the market have seen – there are awesome deals in lake forest, winnetka, wilmette, glencoe, etc – but the deals tend to be on houses that are super 80’s or in Highland park’s case, super super 90’s and need a serious overhaul. Still much cheaper than they were 10 years ago.
The newer construction or updated homes are still pretty pricey. That being said – has anyone looked at oak brook or hinsdale? They used to lag behind the north suburbs and to me it seems like they have surpassed them in cost and available inventory (limited, especially in oak brook).
My wife and i moved out to the northwest-ish part of the city to have the space / a SFH on a nice block…but we really miss some of the fun of ‘downtown’. It’s not as easy to get to river north / gold coast for a date night as we had thought. We’ve been entertaining the idea of buying a 2k-ish square foot 3 bed in one of these high rises as opposed to staying in a SFH.
I meant to chime in about this…I guarantee if you apply even half-ass effort you will find plenty of places on the northwest-ish side of town that are as good as any place in River North for a date night.
“I meant to chime in about this…I guarantee if you apply even half-ass effort you will find plenty of places on the northwest-ish side of town that are as good as any place in River North for a date night.”
Where, ick, where?
“plenty of places on the northwest-ish side of town”
I think Riz means a place on Greenview or something, and still south of Belmont–not “northwest-ish” in any fashion to a city kid like you Icky.
To me:
“North Side” = North of North and east of the river/Western.
“Northwest Side” = North of North and west of the river/Western.
If you say “the dividing line is the river/channel all the way up to Howard”, I wouldn’t argue.
I’ve been pleasantly surprised by some of the dining options in Oak Park, Forest Park, Berwyn, etc. I’ve found the food to be equally as good as anything I’ve had in River North, etc.
Sure, the crowds are older and not as many “beautiful people” hanging out, but in terms of actual quality of food, I haven’t missed the city.
Went to Autre Monde in Berwyn a couple of weeks ago and I had the best pork chop I’ve ever had in my life. It was unreal it was so good. http://www.autremondecafe.com
I think people get caught up in the glitz & glamour. Agree with Icarus, plenty of options outside of the trendy neighborhoods.
Community Tavern 4000 n milwaukee ave. for a great date night
Smoque 3800 pulaski for bbq but not a date night place.
Boston Market (not that one) DesPlaines for great seafood
None of them truly replicate the ambiance and energy of the true city feel but all three offer great food and fun places to eat. And easier parking!
“Community Tavern 4000 n milwaukee ave. for a great date night
Smoque 3800 pulaski for bbq but not a date night place.
Boston [Fish] Market (not that one) DesPlaines for great seafood”
All good options! I have never gone to mirabellas but have been meaning to. It’s the gene and georgetti of the (true) nw side.
https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/mirabella-restaurant-review-arturo-aucaquizhpi/Content?oid=26047620
Discussion topic:
Will the Lincoln Yards development into an entertainment district have any effect on the city’s efforts to turn McCormick/Motor Row into an entertainment district?
if you like Tapas and don’t want to go to the famous Cafe iberico or Cafe Ba-Ba-Reeba, Cafe Marbella (5527 N Milwaukee) is fantastic.
Legno Chicago (4250 N Central ave) is pretty good too if you like Gastropubs.
Smoque is da shiznit. Best ribs IMHO.
Best brisket I’ve had is at Hyde Park BBQ Supply. Gloriously fatty and moist. I guess they have a Rogers Park location as well.
Mirabella’s sounds awesome but if it’s G&G you want then you could just go to Gene and Georgettis Rosemont in my hood.
When I’m in the mood for steaks and want to stay in the hood I’m a big fan of Gibsons Rosemont. We never go to the location downtown as there are better ambiance options like Cut or Prime and Provisions. More importantly we found an excellent waiter at the location in Rosemont. The guy knows our entire family’s food order, favorite drinks, kids names, in his head. And we don’t go that often. He is like Rainman and always turns it into a fun night.
“Mirabella’s sounds awesome but if it’s G&G you want then you could just go to Gene and Georgettis Rosemont in my hood.”
But it’s $20 more for teh bone in ribeye (and I’d find myself in rosemont). I do like boston fish market even if it feels a little bit like I’m eating in the parking lot.
“Best brisket I’ve had is at Hyde Park BBQ Supply. Gloriously fatty and moist. I guess they have a Rogers Park location as well.”
Interesting. I’d have put smoque’s brisket as high as its ribs (I know you haven’t said they’re bad, but I’d impressed by anything in their class).
DZ, the one time I had Smoque’s brisket, I’d say it was alright. It wasn’t bad, but not outstanding. Maybe I got it on a bad day. It very well may be world class, but I haven’t been in awhile, I so I can’t say with authority one way or the other. On the other hand, their ribs have been consistently good. Never had a bad batch of ribs from Smoque.
BBQ Supply’s ribs are just ok to me, but their brisket was just on another level imho. It has been fatty/moist every time I’ve been. Whatever their formula is they consistently get it right.
“the one time I had Smoque’s brisket, I’d say it was alright. It wasn’t bad, but not outstanding. Maybe I got it on a bad day. It very well may be world class, but I haven’t been in awhile, I so I can’t say with authority one way or the other”
interesting, I’ve had maybe 1 okay batch out of 20, most of the time perfect, occasionally just v good. talking about the irving park location. downtown is maybe a bit less consistent.
Smoque does a great job w pickup and catering orders.
“It has been fatty/moist every time I’ve been”
and I agree w fatty/moist as the ideal.
Sabrina hurry home. Crib chatter is borderline turning into check please!
Icarus / everyone else ,
I agree there are awesome restaurants in the west lincoln park area where we live – that being said, the wife likes a bit of glamour now and then and wants to check out the new ‘hotspots’ in west loop , river north, etc. We recently ate at a place called bellemore in west loop, which was absolutely stunning.
Please show me a single place that has that kind of ‘glam’ that chicago cut, maple and ash, shanghai terrace, nomi, or hell even rpm or sunda have – in west lincoln park. I’m not talking food quality, just the ‘cool date night’ factor. I don’t care for it much but you have to treat the lady to something special every few weeks. I know this is douchey, but it’s aging millennial / instagram culture. If I could, i’d hit up pequod’s and kuma’s every date night, haha.
Also, i think getting out of one’s neighborhood once in a while is kind of a necessity.
“Discussion topic:
Will the Lincoln Yards development into an entertainment district have any effect on the city’s efforts to turn McCormick/Motor Row into an entertainment district?”
I’d be interested to hear any thoughts on this too, as well as what type of impact people think Lincoln Yards will have on other neighborhoods. On one hand a ton of supply will be coming on to the market, but there also may be a lot of job creation that is more easily accessible to more neighborhoods.
“aging millennial / instagram culture”
That is the best line I’ve heard all month. I’m gonna think of you every time I use that phrase.
So we went to Gibson’s last night and that waiter had toys for my twin boys birthdays later this week. Kept them waiting in his work locker as he “knew we would be in soon”
It’s either a sign that our boys are fun likable kids or that we tip well. Yes, I’d go with tip well! But in the end that is what we look for when dining out. It’s cool to hit some hot spots from time to time. Everyone likes the wow factor of a new place.
But wr prefer a few regular spots where we know the owners, managers, and waiter/waitresses by name. Makes me feel better spending our money with places and n people that we know and like. And there are often little extras for being a regular customer.
“But wr prefer a few regular spots where we know the owners, managers, and waiter/waitresses by name. Makes me feel better spending our money with places and n people that we know and like. And there are often little extras for being a regular customer.”
Same here. There are a few spots we go so much that the owner / manager always comes out and greets us. We pretty much get comped an appetizer or dessert every visit.
When I lived in Atlanta, wife and I used to go to this seafood restaurant like every weekend. We literally ordered the same stuff every time. The waiters got to know us as regulars. Anyway, one time we showed up and a new waiter serves us. As he is taking our order, he tell us they are out of Fish N Chips (wife’s order) and Crab Cakes (my order). Wife and I look incredulous. Then we realize there is a group of waiters across the room laughing their asses off as they knew that was what we’d order so it was practical joke.
That’s a great laugh Russ!
Here’s a nicely updated house in the North Shore. Not cheap, but again, compared to city prices, I think this is priced great:
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/385-Washington-Ave_Glencoe_IL_60022_M83884-72713#photo0
That Glencoe house is OK, some elements are quite nice, but some of the rooms are kind of small. You can get that much room in the city for that much money, obviously not that kind of land though, and it’s likely to be a less desirable frame home at this price point in the city. Taxes are harsh, but Chicago’s will likely catch up soon enough.
vissi,
That house is certainly charming – especially if you’re coming from the east or west coast…but to those used to midwestern ‘mini mansions’, I think its kinda small. Well decorated though.
jp3 – aging millennial/instagram culture is a term I pull out all the time. If you’re not “old” ( 50’s) , but also not “young” (20’s) – you’re kinda caught in this weird grey zone right now. Still trying to be ‘cool’ without trying to party like the young ones. I don’t party at underground till 4 am like i used to – i’d much rather have a super late dinner and drinks till 12 -1, but then have to wake up to take care of the baby and make brunch with the young baby crowd, as the wife requests.
I hate to admit it but hell, the wife and I will even bring the kid to uncle julio’s in west lincoln park ( super close to us, but not the most amazing food ) , and take turns at who gets to crank the margaritas.
That’s parenthood though, I think.
sorry, coudn’t help myself, have to comment on that Glencoe house…
So, it is indeed nice, love all the casework, love the sliding glass doors on the overheads in the kitchen…
BUT, what the hell is it with just a stovetop and no exhaust whatsoever and the overheads just 2′ above the cooking service? Any attempt to cook anything on that stove, besides heating up a tea kettle, will likely end in disaster…
i’d much rather have a super late dinner and drinks till 12 -1, but then have to wake up to take care of the baby and make brunch with the young baby crowd, as the wife requests.
unless your baby arrived 5 minutes ago and you are still adapting to your New World, I highly doubt you are staying up until 1, you are getting all the sleep you can.
damn you mofos ever cook at home?
My BBQ is the best! (even though I can not have a smoker, which is bullshit)
And what is “west lincoln park” is it that shitty area which I am nearly always permanently stuck in traffic at? Fuck that place with a pitchfork
Sonies – Uncle Julio’s is a staple and great place to dine. Been frequenting that one since at least 1994. Traffic on North Ave does suck but it is worth the pain. The Julio’s nearest our house is in Old Orchard and it SUX. Service, food quality, and wait times all less than good.
Icarus – We too stay out until 12pm fairly regularly. You are correct that 1AM is the exception. As for eating really late that is not good for my acid reflux. More of a 8pm reservation and few nightcaps before hitting the uber home.
Riz – Just missed the cutoff for Aging Millenial and I am now in the “old” category. But on the plus side I dont feel old and never identified as a Millennial.
Sabrina – Hurry back we have really lost our Real Estate focus!
“Taxes are harsh, but Chicago’s will likely catch up soon enough.”
For a City house assessed at $82k, the difference *last year* was about $3k–that is, Glencoe was 20% higher.
Much of the tax difference the last few years bt Chicago and (eg) New Trier has been tied to the under-assessment of property in the city. And if the AAV of city property goes up, it will result in a bit of a decrease for the NT comps, since the Countywide taxes will be shifted toward the city.
“uncle julio’s in west lincoln park ( super close to us[)]”
See, that is in no way “Northwest-ish”. Unless Sonies place also counts as “Northwest-ish”.
“what is “west lincoln park””
It’s everything that anonny thinks is too far west to be “real lincoln park”.
Uncle Julio’s was definitely a fun spot to take the kids (and an easy train ride from the loop). Can’t recall if I considered it east Wheaton or west Lincoln Park.
Yeah I live in North West Streeterville… lol
I am aware of Uncle Julio’s, as I used to work nearby
Definitely not a destination spot for me, as it reminded me too much of my days working at Cozymel’s
“east Wheaton or west Lincoln Park”
+
“working at Cozymel’s”
=
wha? How does nonny pick Wheaton out of a hat like that?
weird right?
@Vissi Love that Glencoe house. But, of course it’s updated. There is also a big distinction between “historic” or tastefully period and out of date. A lot of places on the north shore manage to fall into the better categories. But, a lot don’t.
@Riz I don’t think I buy the “midwest” -“coastal” dichotomy on size. That has not been my personal experience of people. There is good taste and there is bad taste. Bad taste buys size at the expense of class, good taste buys class at the expense of size. (Of course, 2600 sqft isn’t exactly small).
If anything, I think natives tend to be more modest, and transplants, who tend to be corporate climbers, are more gaga over the mcmansion.
I always think of the north shore as primarily people shopping for class (doesn’t mean they always get it right). If you’re shopping for size over class, then you’re in hoffman estates, hinsdale, or naperville.
I’m not a Dr. That would be quite the douche move! it’s a nickname I’ve had since childhood.
If Uncle Julio’s is considered West LP then I guess you’d have to put BOKA and Alinea in WLP too. Alinea is a once every few years place but BOKA has a Michelin star and you could go there for a date night without breaking the bank. Juno is great for sushi and you can get hipster cocktails 1/2 a block down at Barrelhouse Flat. De Quay is really good despite being surrounded by college bars on Lincoln. And Red Lion is a great place to get a drink before / after.
Boka is good AF, get the tasting menu and enjoy getting stuffed on like 8 courses of amazing food
one of the best meals I’ve ever had
“BUT, what the hell is it with just a stovetop and no exhaust whatsoever and the overheads just 2? above the cooking service? Any attempt to cook anything on that stove, besides heating up a tea kettle, will likely end in disaster…”
Don’t you think there must be a downdraft exhaust? Even so, I agree having low overhead cabinets just above the cooktop not good idea. Even with downdraft exhaust, they should have made the upper cabinets above higher.
People with nice fancy kitchens rarely cook!
“People with nice fancy kitchens rarely cook!”
I disagree. The cooking tv shows and blogs and magazines are all WAY too popular for just the plebs to be cooking and no one else. Heck, even celebrity women are now doing cooking shows.
Sabrina – welcome back.
For perspective I am writing this as I recover from a great workout st the gym.
So I watch American Ninja but that doesn’t mean that I’m gonna be actually doing any of those obstacle courses. Just cause people watch means nothing!
Now let’s get back to talking about our passion of real estate! On another update after years of searching and multiple offers that didn’t work out we are actually closing on our lakehouse soon.
congrats jp3
Thanks Sonies. The dogs and kids Are about to have a really great summer!
very interesting discussion. One of them prompted me to look at RE in Lake Forest. We seriously were looking 5-6 years ago to move there, but decided to stay in the city. I guess we are basically even on our RV house (bought 10 years ago). The Lake Forest homes in our price range are easily down 30% so while we haven’t made any money, makes me feel a bit better having to deal with the high cost of city living that I didn’t lose 30%.
C – It feels like much of the NorthShore has taken a beating over the last five years. Not sure why but many good homes, on decent streets, with excellent schools, and stable neighborhoods seem to have lost some luster. Perhaps it is the ever increasing taxes and cost issues that now appear to be a stronger discussion down in the city. Maybe it is just no longer the Millennial American dream to live in the burbs, have a long driveway, big dog, and backyard full of grass.
Are they more attracted to the city or close in inner burbs? I’m seeing more and more of them in Park Ridge. They seem to be attracted to walkable downtown areas, a close by Whole Foods or farmers market, and shortened commutes to work.
Millennials – Am I accurate or way off base? If you are a millennial why has Lake Forest and other similar formerly stellar suburbs lost appeal to your demographic?
“It feels like much of the NorthShore has taken a beating over the last five years. Not sure why but many good homes, on decent streets, with excellent schools, and stable neighborhoods seem to have lost some luster.”
We’ve chattered about this numerous times.
The far north shore suburbs haven’t rebounded much since the Great Recession for the following reasons:
1. Too far from the city: neither GenX or Millennials want to commute an hour or more.
2. The houses need too much work: most haven’t been updated. GenX and Millennials don’t want to put in new bathrooms and kitchens.
3. Layouts are wrong on those older houses: GenX and Millennials don’t want the closed kitchen and separate rooms. They want the open concept.
“1. Too far from the city: neither GenX or Millennials want to commute an hour or more.”
An hour? Maybe from some estate in Lake F, but one can bike commute from Wilmette to the Loop.
“An hour? Maybe from some estate in Lake F, but one can bike commute from Wilmette to the Loop.”
We weren’t talking about Wilmette anonny.
I said the “far north suburbs” in my response and he, and others, mentioned Lake Forest, in particular.
Wilmette and Evanston would be classified as the closer in suburbs like Park Ridge, Berwyn, and Oak Park. The houses aren’t sitting and not selling in those suburbs because that’s where GenX has bought and is probably where Millennials are also beginning to buy.
I know it wasn’t Wilmette specifically being discussed but my understanding is the prices there have still lagged the city and some of the closer western burbs.
I think it’s a lot of factors, but ultimately younger people with the means to do so are choosing to stay in or close to the city more than they used to a generation ago.
The factors that were important to me:
-More business opportunities (uncertain career path, wanted to preserve optionality)
-Quality of life in the city has improved quite a bit over the past decade due to smartphones. Uber, maps, dating (if single), more “desirable areas” due to continued gentrification, are all things that have shifted recently that make being in the city more attractive than it used to be.
The striking thing about the north shore to me is just how dated the houses are. In the top areas you are paying $700k+ for a fixer and in many cases you’ll wind up with a ~$900k-$1m home that’s “finished” but still in many ways dated. You can get a much nicer house in Elmhurst for this same price with most of the same lifestyle amenities.
Things have just changed. These houses were built in a different era and I think to some extent there is just no good solution besides accepting stagnant / falling prices or waiting it out until the economics make sense for a true tear down.
Look at this little beauty that just sold for $770,000 in (very) east Lake Forest. There was a time when I could only dream of affording a house like this in this location. Unfortunately, now that I can, nothing could get me to move up there!
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/855-Greenview-Pl_Lake-Forest_IL_60045_M77465-89994#photo4
Lake forest is going to struggle as most of the Walgreens HQ people from deerfield are going to be moving to an office downtown now at the post office
“Lake forest is going to struggle as most of the Walgreens HQ people from deerfield are going to be moving to an office downtown now at the post office.”
This actually isn’t true (not yet anyway.)
They are moving about 1300 and hiring another 500 for 1800 people at the Post Office (they already have sizable numbers in another office building in the loop- so those workers have already left Deerfield- or were never there to begin with. It’s mostly the tech workers, who have choices and won’t do the commute out to Deerfield.)
3200 other workers are staying in Deerfield.
Most likely it won’t have that big of an impact, especially as most of the workers are already downtown. Has the McDonald’s move impacted the western suburbs housing market much? No one is reporting on it, if it has. (Also, on an aside, I’ve heard from some McDonald’s insiders that management expects many of the older, senior workers to balk at the commute from the suburbs and that most will quit in a year or two as a result.)
The reason Walgreens isn’t moving everyone else is because they are pretty entrenched out there. In my opinion, they’ll wait for the older employees to simply retire and then slowly hire newbies downtown until one day, in like 5 to 10 years, they’ll announce that their new headquarters is downtown.