Flipper Alert: Best Flip Yet in the Columbian
The Columbian, at 1160 S. Michigan, which started closings several months ago, has seen dozens of attempted flips. I’ve talked about a few in prior posts. “Attempted” is the key word here because from what I can tell, nothing has re-sold in the building.
I don’t think they’ve finished closings in the building so more will come on the market. (Anyone know?) I drove by the building in the evening a few days ago and was shocked at how few lights were on in the building.
The current sales scene in The Columbian (out of 221 total units):
- 42 units for sale
- 17 units for rent
The building was not sold out by the developer when closings began, which is making it more difficult for the flippers.
But this latest flip is so inspiring that it brings a smile to my face.
You have to admire this owner. It takes some guts to try to flip for nearly a million dollars in this market.
Question is: why do they think this unit is worth that? Look at the pictures below. You be the judge. Does it inspire you?
Hm…me neither.
Unit #4201: 3 bedrooms, 3.5 baths, 3400 square feet, direct lake views
- Just sold for $1,600,000
- Flipping it for $2,555,000
- Listing says it has, thank goodness, subzero, viking and bosch appliances
- Two parking spaces included
Deborah Thomas at Coldwell Banker in the agent.
I would have to gut the kitchen…ugg! They need to at least stage this place and paint it. Good luck flippers!
Last 3 months 2 under contract, 8 closings… Still 45 listings posted on MLS…
PEND 1160 S Michigan Ave 2903 Chicago 8032 $505,000
CTGO 1160 S Michigan Ave 1302 Chicago 8032 $399,900
CLSD 1160 S Michigan Ave 1206 Chicago 8033 $361,900
CLSD 1160 S Michigan Ave 2302 Chicago 8032 $430,792
CLSD 1160 S Michigan Ave 1102 Chicago 8032 $440,900
CLSD 1160 S Michigan Ave 2802 Chicago 8032 $455,000
CLSD 1160 S Michigan Ave 3202 Chicago 8032 $460,200
CLSD 1160 S Michigan Ave 2205 Chicago 8033 $474,900
CLSD 1160 S Michigan Ave 2803 Chicago 8032 $510,000
CLSD 1160 S Michigan Ave 3003 Chicago 8032 $513,900
city agent, what about the other 14 that closed in the last 3 months? Those would be units 1906, 2604, 2605, 2707, 3405, 3701, 3902, 3905, 4003, 4201, 4301, 4302, 4303, & 4601. There are also an additional 7 that are pending: 902, 2001, 2305, 2403, 3804, 4401 & 4502. All of those we listed, including the contingent contract, were sold by the developer’s agent.
The only resale I could identify in the building is unit 1803, a 1485 sf 2/2 which closed on 8/2/2007 for $500,500 and again on 11/2/2007 for $515,900. However, since the developer’s agent handled both sales it is difficult to determine what this represents.
Another interesting fact is that of the 45 active listings, 36 are with the developer’s agent. Of those, only unit 4303 appears to have closed previously. The 9 active listings with other realtors all have prior sales and are flips.
The flippers are competing with the developer, which is a sure sign of trouble for both. The downward spiral continues.
G, Yes these are all pending. These units went Under Contract MARCH OF 2007… NOT WITHIN THE LAST 90 DAYS… The listings I pointed out earlier were listed and closed within 90 DAYS…
I’m only reporting on updates “LAST 90 DAYS” but thank you very much for pointing these out again…
PEND 1160 S Michigan Ave 902 Chicago 8032 $457,900
PEND 1160 S Michigan Ave 2001 Chicago 8032 $790,900
PEND 1160 S Michigan Ave 2305 Chicago 8033 $498,900
PEND 1160 S Michigan Ave 2403 Chicago 8032 $499,900
PEND 1160 S Michigan Ave 3804 Chicago 8032 $613,500
PEND 1160 S Michigan Ave 4401 Chicago 8033 $1,500,000
PEND 1160 S Michigan Ave 4502 Chicago 8032 $1,100,000
Yes thanks for pointing these out… These units all closed within the last “90 DAYS” except for the ones noted. The contracts were all written in the last year not within the last “90 DAYS” though…
Unit #1906 11/26/07, Unit #2604 1/15/08, Unit #2605 11/27/07, Unit #2707 1/15/08, Unit #3405 11/27/07, Unit #3701 11/27/07, Unit #3902 12/31/07 (who closes on New Years Eve), Unit #3905(not past 90 days), Unit #4003 02/13/08, Unit #4201(ACTIVE IN MLS), Unit #4301 02/08/08, Unit#4302 02/11/08, Unit #4303 02/11/08, & Unit #4601 02/15/08.
Thanks Again though…
Almost nothing is flipping in the Columbian. Any units that are pending are likely from the developer.
The developer is cutting deals to try and clear out the inventory in the building. Last I heard they were cutting prices AND offering free parking. None of the flippers can compete.
You can’t use this building as an example of condos that are “selling” because the developer is being aggressive in getting rid of them (and STILL not being that successful, if you ask me.)
City Agent, I didn’t say the pending I added were contracts from the last 90 days. I added them to support my point that all of the sale and pending activity is from the developer. Your comment was misleading in response to a post about flips in the building because you omitted that important fact.
You then go on with your typical backpedaling, Pat. Anyone can read above that you wrote “Last 3 months 2 under contract, 8 closings.” Now you want to keep digging with “The listings I pointed out earlier were listed and closed within 90 DAYS…” However, even this isn’t entirely accurate (see #1102 below.) Did you even look over the sales you mentioned? It certainly doesn’t take an expert to see that some of the sales data might be questionable, to say the least. Your 8 sales (listing #,unit#,list date,contract date,sale date,sale price):
List #6720261 #1102 11/1/2007 1/2/2008 1/17/2008 $440,900
List #6740732 #1206 11/28/2007 11/28/2007 12/19/2007 $361,900
List #6775294 #2205 1/17/2008 1/17/2008 1/18/2008 $474,900
List #6775138 #2302 1/17/2008 1/17/2008 1/18/2008 $430,792
List #6775155 #2802 1/17/2008 1/17/2008 1/28/2008 $455,000
List #6760022 #2803 1/2/2008 1/2/2008 1/15/2008 $510,000
List #6775146 #3003 1/17/2008 1/17/2008 1/28/2008 $513,900
List #6775178 #3202 1/17/2008 1/17/2008 1/18/2008 $460,200
Something tells me some of these contracts were signed outside your new “90 day” window, based on those amazing listing to closing timeframes. It definitely confirms what Sabrina noted about the developers’ lack of success in selling units, especially in the past 90 days, since what were shown as new contracts were most likely not new at all. The additional info about the sales also confirms that your new found claim of “The listings I pointed out earlier were listed and closed within 90 DAYS…” was not a well thought-out piece of backpedaling.
You were actually correct in that I erred in including #3905, which did close outside the 90 day window. Even with the additional closings I question the reliability of the listing and contract dates, unless March 27th was “National Catch a Falling Knife Day.”
Here are the sales I added (listing #,unit#,list date,contract date,sale date,sale price):
List #6454353 #1906 3/26/2007 3/26/2007 11/26/2007 $294,900
List #6386964 #2604 1/20/2007 10/8/2007 1/15/2008 $314,500
List #6618118 #2605 7/25/2007 7/25/2007 11/27/2007 $562,500
List #6455236 #2707 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 1/15/2008 $919,900
List #6455657 #3405 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 11/27/2007 $972,800
List #6455676 #3701 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 11/27/2007 $1,124,500
List #6455806 #3902 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 12/31/2007 $709,500
List #6455847 #3905 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 10/22/2007 $959,500
List #6455893 #4003 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 2/13/2008 $1,050,000
List #6455904 #4201 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 11/27/2007 $1,600,000
List #6455919 #4301 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 2/8/2008 $1,150,000
List #6455933 #4302 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 2/8/2008 $800,000
List #6455945 #4303 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 2/11/2008 $750,000
List #6455976 #4601 3/27/2007 3/27/2007 2/15/2008 $1,550,000
I posted the additional sales because they fit the criteria you originally stated (except for #3905), and they also confirm that 100% of the closings in the past 90 days are from the developer. Not a single flip among them, which is the topic of this post.
Would you, a realtor(tm), relay info in this manner to a potential client without the necessary context? If not, why would you, a realtor(tm), do it here? Isn’t there a code of ethics involved?
No need to thank me because it isn’t your understanding I aim to further.
G, I’m simply updating activity good or bad in the past 90 days… U should quit your job and become a Privite Eye or a Gumshoe.
“Something tells me some of these contracts were signed outside your new “90 day” window, based on those amazing listing to closing timeframes.”
Pat, what you are doing is deceptive without the context. The point of this post is that few (probably none) flips have happened recently in this building. You then posted a list of sales that could have easily been misunderstood to represent flip sales (or even recent contracts.) You have a habit of posting comments here and then admitting their irrelevance later. You did it yesterday with the “Cook County Millionaires” bs. You did it in the past with the “Its so much cheaper here” and “Foreigners will save the day” and “Chicago is a world-class city” nonsense. You have also been very sloppy in the MLS data you post here when some might still consider an “agent” to be a reliable source.
I am pointing this out for the benefit of other readers.
G:
I confess that I for one truly appreciate the substance and context of your posted remarks and I no doubt have a greater understanding and appreciation of the current market as a result. I no doubt benefit from your posts.
Has anyone been in to see the sales office recently? Any news on how aggressively the developer is pricing the remaining inventory to sell? I have walked through the models and I like one of the 3 bedroom tower units (http://www.thecolumbianchicago.com/tower_residence_02.asp).
I am just a little apprehensive about spending that kind of money in this market. Any opinions on what a good price is for a place like that? Also, I have to sell my 2 Bed/2 Bath in the South Loop before I consider placing an offer on the unit in the Columbian. I haven’t listed it yet but I am afraid I am either not going to get many offers or that I will get lowball offers. Does anyone have any opinions on how I should time my transactions? Should I list my house first and wait until I get an offer I like before placing an offer on the unit at the Columbian??
From what I hear, they’re being pretty aggressive on incentives and whatnot in that building.
Personally- I would not be buying a new unit that I had to close on within 30 days without first selling my old one. Especially in the South Loop- where inventory is growing daily with every new building that comes on the market.
No offense, but 2/2s in the South Loop are a dime a dozen so unless it’s in a fabulous location or has a unique feature or you price it dirt cheap to sell immediately- there will be lots of competition.
That’s just my view.
Any agents out there with a different view?
Sell first and then buy. If you get lucky and it sells quickly, you can always rent afterwards (if you’re still looking to purchase.) Heck, you can probably rent a 3 bedroom in the Columbian cheaply and check it out first to see if you like it and/or wait for prices to come down further.
Sabrina – I think you’re best to sell before buying. BTW I showed a unit at The Columbian – a flipper’s unit. They need to get out quickly. The north east views are great – the south east corners are not great – with the remaining towers going up sometime in the future, the dead on view of the Shedd is nice, but not terrific.
Thank you. I appreciate your perspective. I totally agree with you on the huge amount of inventory in the South Loop. I think you have a very accurate assessment in the fact that it will take some time to sell my unit so it would be safest to hold off before buying a new place. I am hoping the 3 bed rooms that I like at the Columbian don’t sell out before June/July and that I can sell mine by then. Thanks for your input. What do you think about those price ranges at the Columbian? What range would you feel comfortable paying for a 3 bedroom unit (South West exposure, one parking spot included)? Do you think anything in the $330-$340 a square foot range would be a good price? Anything over $350 a square foot not a good purchase right now?
Gullu,
If there is one piece of advice you should take in this market, sell first! Go and rent a place, take you time to find you perfect unit, there is no need to rush into anything. The market will not turn on a dime, it will probably take years to stablize, and quite a few more to start appreciating. The Deals to see today will be there tomorrow, might even be better. Don’t rush into anything.
Good advice. Nothing is selling out!
Not even sold out buildngs are sold out- if you know what I mean.
If you’re unsure about the market- just wait it out.
And if you do buy- make sure you’re fine with living there probably at least 5 years (but more like 10.) Housing is, for now, not something that will make you money- but simply a place to LIVE. Buy it for your own personal enjoyment and nothing more.
Hi – just a quick update re: attempted flips. Unit 3304 went under contract last weekend. My client and I drafted an offer on the unit only to find out that 2 offers had already been submitted. I know that the one accepted was for all cash – closing next week. The price had been substantially reduced from $800K to $635K + parking. The price will be reflected in the next week or so – I know that the price included parking – sold somewhere between $610K and $635K. I also know that none of the offers were at asking including parking.
Thanks Tom.
Unit #3304 originally closed for $642,000 WITH the parking.
So the flipper is taking at least a $50k loss. But probably more.
We’ll see when the final closing price is released.
Actually – the seller purchased the unit for $605K – they did not pay extra for the parking.
Tom: The records I saw say it closed for $642,000 originally- so maybe they got cash back somehow at closing.
Or that source is just wrong.
If it closed for $605k the seller still took a loss- just not as large.
Hi,
MLS shows that it closed for $604,500. I am not sure if that included 1 parking space.
According to public records, unit #3304 sold along with parking #P509 on 9/27/07 for $642,000. The purchase was financed with a mortgage for $513,500.
The unit was originally listed for $800,000 then $755,000 before the reduction to $635,000. This flipper showed at least some brain activity by cutting the price until it went under contract. We can estimate his loss when it closes.
Well, I have to say I checked the MLS on this unit as well. I agree with Tom and SR. MLS is telling me Unit #3304 sold for $604,500… Nothing about parking but assuming that parking was included in this price since they are now trying to flip the unit w/ parking spot 45k extra.
According to the warranty deed recorded 10/9/07 as document 0728242201, unit #3304 sold along with parking #P509 on 9/27/07 for $642,000. The mortgage for $513,500 was recorded 10/9/07 as document 0728242202.
The used-home salespeople could really help themselves if they demanded that their mls clearly state whether parking is included. Otherwise, their assumptions will continue to be unreliable. Or, should everything they say just fall under the doctrine of caveat emptor?
Streeterville Realtor,
I will note that you stand out once again among the realtors(tm) on this thread. You had the sense to state the obvious about the mls listing for the prior sale, namely that the inclusion of the parking was inconclusive from that source.
G, For the “BROKER” to be telling the MLS to post at $604,500 when it really sold for $642,000 is either a huge mistake or the “BROKER” is inputting wrong information which is ILLEGAL and could be liable if found negligent.
G, also since you did not purchase the unit and the “Selling Agent” was also the new condo owner “Buyers Agent” and would probably not disclose what really happen we will not never know for sure.
The unit could have been purchased for $604,500 which included a parking spot. And the buyer could have also purchased another spot as well from the developer and hold onto it. For you to have the “say all be all” of who is right is ridiculous! The unit could also been purchased by an insider since it was listed before it even closed at 800k to try and get a quick flip which in turn would look good for the building/developer.
City agent,
I would love to know what is “ILLEGAL” (caps, no less) about entering incorrect info in the MLS? It might be against the mls rules, but is there really a law broken?
Keep trying with your assumptions, Pat. I will trust what is on the deed: #3304 and #P509 sold 9/27/07 together for $642,000. Are you implying that the deed is not a reliable source?
I think your comments on this thread speak for themselves as to the reliability of realtors(tm) and what they put in, and assume from, the mls.
C’mon folks. The most likely explanation is that the unit sold for $604.5k and the parking spot for $37.5k for a total of . . . $642k.
I’m not sure what “I also know that none of the offers were at asking including parking” means. Does it mean that all of the offers were for less than $635 incl parking or that all of the offers were for less than $635 + parking (i.e., something like $675k)?
Hi guys – unit 3304 sold for $604,500 from the developer – this price included parking per the listing agent. The flipper listed the unit initially at $800K – the price was reduced several times finally settling at $635,000 + $45,000 for parking. The property had 2 competing offers and sold – closing today for $637K which includes parking.
Unit 3804 just listed and is now under contract.
G,
I will note that you stand out again on how sometimes you can make mistakes. I’m going to agree with Tom Hall again that Unit #3304 closed at $604,500- “this price included parking per the listing agent…” It is “Illegal” for a broker to knowingly input incorrect information and I could report them to “MAP” or “MLSNI” or “CAR” or “IAR” or “NAR” but would not since I didn’t participate in the deal and could not prove the Broker was being negligent…
CA:
“It is “Illegal” for a broker to knowingly input incorrect information and I could report them to “MAP” or “MLSNI” or “CAR” or “IAR” or “NAR””
This is what G was getting at–the rules of the organization do not rise to the force of law, therefore breaking them is not illegal, tho it may be “illegal”. Breaking the rules of a voluntary organization subjects one to contractual liability, which might be enforceable in a court, but still would not subject one to criminal sanction–the core of something being genuinely illegal.
And why, if the sales price was only $604,500, would anyone agree to record a deed reflecting a sales price of $642,000? That costs extra in Chicago–one has to believe that anyone doing so was not acting rationally. I tend to believe documentation showing someone paid a certain amount (in this case, of transfer taxes) over the verbal statement of someone with uncertain knowledge and uncertain motives. Why isn’t it possible that the agent was wrong?
Also, from what I understand from agents, they are inputting the info themselves. They make mistakes, obviously. It’s likely someone just forgot to add in the price of parking when they put the sold price into the MLS (not intentionally- probably.)
The deed and the public tax records don’t lie.
This seller lost quite a bit of money- when you add in closing costs, holding costs, assessments paid, paying the agent to re-sell etc.
Sabrina,
From my understanding unless you are the Broker yourself your not inputting this information into the MLS. Usually an Office Administrator from the Brokers Office is inputing this information.
This is my take on it and I’m done talking about what happened with this particular unit because we are “nit picking” to figure what this particular flipper really lost.
The developer’s sales team was the selling/buying agent on this sale. If the deed closed at $642,000 why would you record it at a lower price $604,500. Why wouldn’t you want the higher closed price at 642k??? Wouldn’t this make sense to have all prices recorded at the correct price especially if its an increased price of 37.5k.
I mean I’m not a rocket scientist but if I’m on the Sales Team wouldn’t I want to tell people it closed at 642k with 1 deeded parking spot. Wouldn’t the developer want this price at 642k when he looks to sell Unit #3404 with 1 deeded parking spot or any other unit in the same tier. Because this is what Agents will pull up when they submit an offer to the developer. They will pull up $604,500. So to me if the developer is making this mistake its his loss. Because If I bring a buyer or if any other agent brings a buyer this is what they are going to pull. To me it doesn’t make any sense…
“To me it doesn’t make any sense”
What really makes no sense is paying extra for the privilege of misstating on the deed and the PTAX the amount you paid. Sure, it’s less than $100, but I don’t know anyone voluntarily giving an extra $100 to any government entity in Illinois.
Also, unlike the MLS, misstating the amount paid on the PTAX is actually illegal–as in there are potential criminal penalties for doing so. The PTAX instructions state: “Anyone who willfully falsifies or omits any required information on Form PTAX-203 is guilty of a Class B misdemeanor for the first offense and a Class A misdemeanor for subsequent offenses.” Class B is up to 6 months in jail and a $1500 fine, Class A is up to a year in jail and a $2500 fine. Last I checked, MLSNI and NAR can’t impose prison sentences.
Finally, we aren’t just “nit picking” to figure out what the seller lost, we’re talking about the reliability of numbers in the MLS and, in part, the accuracy of statements made by an agent. Neither the MLS figure nor the second hand statement of the agent should carry as much weight as the figure determined by the executed, filed legal document (nor would they, if this were to come up in a legal proceeding).
Maintaining that the MLS is more accurate than a PTAX is ridiculous–notwithstanding the fact (and it is a fact) that the developer had a strong incentive to accurately record as high a price as possible.
I kind of figured there were only one or two on this thread who don’t seem to get it.
Tom Hall, thank you for your input. Alas, it does not resolve the issue. I wonder if you could seek clarification from the listing agent you referenced? Would that have been Michael Holtorf of Equity Brokerage Services, the listing and selling agent for the developer’s sale on 9/27/07? Or was it Stephanie Derderian of Keller Williams, the listing agent on the flipper’s sale (who doesn’t appear to have anything to do with the prior sale price under discussion)? Is your source aware of the warranty deed I referenced?
City agent, of course you “will note” nonsense. What else is new? We have all been reading your comments here since before you were city agent. They have left me with a general sense that you are somewhat delusional. Your profession really doesn’t need any more of that, seeing how much it helped get us into this housing mess to begin with. As Streeterville Realtor correctly concluded, the developer’s mls listing was vague as to the inclusion of the parking in the sale. So were Tom Hall’s comments. The warranty deed I referenced was not vague at all. Well, just goes to show you can lead a horse to water…
My point here is simple: the used home salespeople could help themselves greatly by changing the way they report the parking situation in the mls. For now, the more reliable source for this information is the deed. They truly must be delusional to not understand this.
This isn’t the only area where the mls is weak and prone to mistakes or manipulation. The original sale of #3304 is shown in the mls as going under contract at full price the day it was listed, thus resulting in a market time of 1 day. This is very common with mls listings for new construction and often results in distortions (and potential manipulations) of market statistics.
Good call, Sabrina. Based on Tom Hall’s statement that it closed yesterday for $637,000 with parking I would estimate a $60,000 loss. Not exactly how this flipper planned to leverage their $110,500 down payment, don’t you think? That would make it about a 54% loss in just under 6 months.
G,
I knew this would be the response I would get from you. Of course you would respond in a “negative” tone how else would you.
Again, what “nonsense” did I’m I reporting. The fact that the developer’s sales team will lose leverage when it comes to negotiating on a developers unit in the same tier.
G, Also this Flipper lead himself to the water. He went to the sales center himself and worked with the Developer himself. Just to point out. This Flipper would have lost more $ if he walked away from his deal ( if the initial earnest deposit was greater than 15%)
The kitchen looks like some of the “scattered Site” public housing buildings I was in when I was in drug and gang housing.
Except for the granite.
Pat, er city agent, it is not my goal to educate you. It is my goal to educate others about those like you among used home salespeople.
Therefore, it is not up to you or me to determine if I have been successful. That is up to the other readers of this fine blog to decide for themselves. You may have deluded yourself into thinking your inanities counter what I say, but that just might not be the conclusion reached by others.
I understand that the warranty deed states that value of the parking for space 509 – per my converstations with the listing agent, Stephanie – the agent for the flipper, the parking was an incentive from the developer. The deed reflects the value of the parking space as well as the unit, however, the RESPA would be able to clarify the exact amount paid by the original purchaser.
I can only rely on the information provided by the listing agent – I doubt she would misrepresent her client paying less for the unit.
Anyone know how many units are for rent in the Columbian? I’m looking for a two bedroom for around $2200.
I looked at a 2/2 unit here today. I liked it a lot. I also liked the common area on the 9th floor. The Developer wants about $420K for a SE unit. Parking is included. I wonder if I can bargain him down a little more.