From “As-Is” 2-Bedroom to Completely Remodeled 4-Bedroom in Avondale: 3122 N. Spaulding
The biggest story of Chicago’s real estate market in 2011 appears to be the number of single family homes that are being bought, remodeled, and then re-listed at much higher prices such as this 4-bedroom home at 3122 N. Spaulding in Avondale.
Built in 1888 on a standard 25×125 lot, the frame house had been a 2-bedroom, 1 bath when it was listed for sale “as-is” in October of 2010.
The 2010 listing said it was the “ideal handyman’s special”.
You can see the old listing (with pictures) of the property here.
The house has now been completely remodeled as a 4-bedroom, 3 bath with a fully finished lower level.
The three new baths have granite counter tops and Grohe faucets.
There are skylights in both upstairs bathrooms.
The kitchen has dark custom cabinetry, what look like stone counter tops and GE stainless steel appliances.
Three out of the 4 bedrooms are on the second floor, with the fourth on the main level.
The listing says the house has a new roof, windows, Hardie fiber-cement siding, furnace and a/c.
It is located just a few blocks from the Belmont blue line El stop and is near the Kennedy Expressway for an easy commute.
Originally listed in June 2011, it has been reduced about $50,000 since then.
What will this “new” house sell for?
Piotr Hadlaw has the listing. See the current pictures here.
3122 N. Spaulding: 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, 2700 square feet, 2 car garage
- No history in the public record of prior sales
- Originally listed in October 2010 for $120,000
- Sold in November 2010 for $80,000
- Re-listed in June 2011 for $449,000
- Reduced
- Currently listed at $399,999
- Taxes of $1,838
- Central Air
- Bedroom #1: 18×16 (second level)
- Bedroom #2: 10×14 (second level)
- Bedroom #3: 10×13 (second level)
- Bedroom #4: 12×8 (main level)
- Family room: 22×18 (lower level)
HD, does this or does this not meet your Unicorn Criteria?
I don’t think he’s fond of the Avondale neighborhood.
Also, this article on the Tribune website today touches on families being stuck in their homes and that contributing to growing enrollment figures (among other reasons): http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/education/ct-met-chicago-parents-stay-put-20110731,0,296761.story
The interior is very nice for the price point.
“The listing says the house has a new roof, windows, Hardie fiber-cement siding, furnace and a/c.”
What I would want to know about is foundation and basement-level plumbing.
AMAZING PROPERTY. I’m surprised this hasn’t sold. This will sell for more than $350,000 but less than $400,000. Redfin agent event comments on the high quality. Move in ready, also near the belmont subway. amazing. This will make somebody a happy buyer.
Do you take this or one of the “LEED” homes?
This one sold (before print!):
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2858-N-Woodard-St-60618/home/40012788
“Do you take this or one of the “LEED” homes?”
Can I–for discussion purposes–assume they are next door to each other, and the purchase price would be identical?
If so, then the LEED house, most likely, even tho I prefer the general style and layout of this place. Knee walls and smallish bedroom don’t work well together.
How did they double the square footage?
One of the nicest sub 400K SFHs I have seen in a while. Granted Avondale isn’t a premium neighborhood, but there are worse fringe neighborhood options available. For $360 it would be a great buy IMO.
“How did they double the square footage?”
Since it looks like the second floor was already in use, it has to be the finished basement.
“If so, then the LEED house, most likely, even tho I prefer the general style and layout of this place. Knee walls and smallish bedroom don’t work well together.”
Agreed on pretty much all counts (incl that there is a lot about the LEED house I do not love). Dunno about relative actual locations, my bias would be to be closer to Logan, but that’s prob just me.
skeptic??
“How did they double the square footage?”
Assessor has it as 1316 sf and a “one-story” house, with unfinished attic and basement.
Sabrina, I think the link to the old pictures is for the wrong property. you’ve linked to “Trying to Sell 2 Years Later: $20K Reduction on 1208 W. Webster”
“Dunno about relative actual locations, my bias would be to be closer to Logan, but that’s prob just me. ”
As to general comparison, I’d prolly side with you, but the Woodward location is, very specifically, crap, with the garage directly exposed to Kimball and the front of the house basically looking down another alley. Put it over on Sawyer, it becomes an easier preference.
That LEED house is of the same builder as one previously discussed on Cribhater. I went to check out the Humboldt Park one in person.
http://cribchatter.com/?p=9610
This property looks like it was given a nice update however those upstairs short tapered wall ceilings bug me. Now I have that tune stuck in my head that I can’t get out. Hope I do not stick it in your head.
Short people got, short people got, short people got no reason to…..
Ugggggh!
we trick and treat on this block, nice place, nice homes and neighbors from what we’ve seen. personally, and I’m picky, I’d like to be a touch further away from the expressway – otoh, you can get on the expressway in about 30 seconds from this spot. probably a 5 minute walk to the Belmont subway, which is also nice.
Logan Sq, “the Square,” gets all the love, and for good reason, but this is maybe a 15 minute walk away.
depends, I’m more about actual travel time/logistical convenience unless I’m going to be steps away. this nook is nice as the layout doesn’t invite tons of traffic in rush hour. the downside is walking east you have that nasty expressway overpass area, but I imagine that will improve as years go by.
“Dunno about relative actual locations, my bias would be to be closer to Logan, but that’s prob just me. ”
“Logan Sq, “the Square,” gets all the love, and for good reason, but this is maybe a 15 minute walk away.”
Or one stop on the blue line, for those who can’t walk 2/3 of a mile in less than 45 minutes.
“the downside is walking east you have that nasty expressway overpass area, but I imagine that will improve as years go by. ”
In all seriousness–what do you think can improve about it? It seems like its one of the better ones, given the structural limitations of the two overpasses.
“skeptic on July 19th, 2011 at 11:32 am
Logan Sq, “the Square,” gets all the love, and for good reason, but this is maybe a 15 minute walk away.”
Does it? It gets a lot of love in the papers for hispanic gang murders, I know that.
I’d like an honest evaluation of what makes it a good ‘hood.
“what do you think can improve about it? It seems like its one of the better ones, given the structural limitations of the two overpasses.”
Skate park, dog run. Ok, those are taken. Maybe hipster food carts.
“Does it? It gets a lot of love in the papers for hispanic gang murders, I know that.
I’d like an honest evaluation of what makes it a good ‘hood.”
You’re mixing the Community Area with the actual location of the Square itself. Like muddying up Lincoln Park, the park, with the Community Area.
“Skate park, dog run. Ok, those are taken. Maybe hipster food carts.”
Yeah–food carts, or farmers market.
“I’d like an honest evaluation of what makes it a good ‘hood.”
Dude, this gets discussed in connection with nearly every Logan Square property posting on CC.
They could add some rebar or something to discourage the permanent homeless village. Many of those folks are serious drug addicts, they’ve been found to squat in foreclosed properties near Avondale Park, and there are all sorts of rumors/posts in local forums that some of them mix dealing drugs for the local gangs in with their panhandling. The Alderman knows it’s a problem and at least tries to keep it clean, I’ll give the guy that.
Bradford- yes, I was just referring to the Square itself, which has loads of events, restaurants nearby, etc. This home is closer to the Square (aside from the subway proximity) than a good deal of the larger community area of Logan Square.
“In all seriousness–what do you think can improve about it? It seems like its one of the better ones, given the structural limitations of the two overpasses.”
The rehabber’s target demographic is some poor white artist waiting for granny to croak to get their fat inheritance. I hope granny clings onto her dear life for another decade & the nursing home gets the cash and the artist-hipster fails out of making it in Chicago.
Great place but the buyer will be in for a shock come tax time. I think it will be gone shortly.
On the Trib article, I think it’s a good thing for CPS that more affluent and involved parents are staying, even if it is because they have no choice. A lot more parents would stay if the schools were better. If I had found a place in any of the school boundaries that I wanted I would have happily left our North Shore suburban elementary behind. But I do wonder what the effect is going to be on suburban schools if less parents leave the city. Many districts in my area are seeing declining enrollment, which is being used as an excuse to cut spending by the cheapasses in town. For every winner there has to be a loser right?
Young families still are having a hard time with affordability in those suburbs Jennifer. When the cheapest house starts at $500K and its a crapshack, and decent non-estate sale places that were updated in the past 7 years with 2 or more bathrooms are $900K plus, it’s tough, especially when the move-up buyers have to bring cash to close on the sale of their city condo.
Not everyone in the suburbs lives in a $900k house. Trust me. I could not have bought anything comparable to the North Shore place I just bought in the city, in terms of price, schooling and location. And believe me, I tried.
“In all seriousness–what do you think can improve about it? It seems like its one of the better ones, given the structural limitations of the two overpasses.”
The skate park really has helped the logan underpass. Obviously, the more foot traffic and semi-regular people activity there is, the more people are willing to walk through, but that is a little circular. In logan, there’s a bunch of stuff east of kennedy that all the people on the west are interested in walking to, and that helps a lot too. But not easy to make appear out of nowhere.
I believe Jennifer is correct, though I know nothing about her beyond her post here. The North Shore is not just for people who can pay $900K. There are plenty of opportunities at $400K if you know where to look. You won’t get a mansion, but then, you wouldn’t in the city at that price level, either.
As for the Avondale location of this house, I would never buy a house anywhere if it meant having to regularly walk underneath the Kennedy at Belmont. Just driving under there is depressing enough.
“I would never buy a house anywhere if it meant having to regularly walk underneath the Kennedy at Belmont”
Okay, the other half of my question, implied by DZ–what is worth walking to b/t the Kennedy and the river from Diversey to Addison? Especially “regularly”. Aside (I guess) from Kuma’s and Hot Doug’s.
@ jp3
http://books.google.com/books?id=huesimcC2iYC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=stanley+fish+short+people&source=bl&ots=h2W-kPeLqW&sig=MUic-fE-o8f4zuj8w3m2YSJg4Zg&hl=en&ei=2uElTpu9CKvCsQKH9rjNCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
“Aside (I guess) from Kuma’s and Hot Doug’s.”
Darn…thought I had something until I read this sentence.
“Aside (I guess) from Kuma’s and Hot Doug’s.”
“Darn…thought I had something until I read this sentence.”
I wouldn’t take this walk (even ignoring the underpass) to Hot Doug’s, but if I were willing to walk that far, I guess I’d consider Chief O’Neills (for the nice outside seating) and Target.
If you’re me, on a nasty gridlocked weekend I’ll happily walk all the way to Wrigley Field before I’ll sit in a bus stuck in traffic.
For this location the walkability going east doesn’t seem that critical, or people just deal with it. The people moving around here seem to be primarily following the tried-and-true model of working their way NW up Milwaukee, which is to the west anyway.
But I have a friend who just moved from a house on the 2800 block of Roscoe, and I thought he was kidding when he told me (a few weeks ago) that Hot Doug’s actually helped him sell his house, which he did earlier this year.
“Okay, the other half of my question, implied by DZ–what is worth walking to b/t the Kennedy and the river from Diversey to Addison? Especially “regularly”. Aside (I guess) from Kuma’s and Hot Doug’s.”
“what is worth walking to b/t the Kennedy and the river from Diversey to Addison? ”
Aside from HD & Kuma’s, Cornerstone, Traspasada, N Bar, Urban Belly, Orbit Room, Michelle’s, some hidden tennis courts. Not sure if any of these qualify under the “regularly” criteria
Aye on the Chief, and Christina’s, which has the $2 Guinness up on Kedzie & Grace. Our kid goes to Concordia Place, so sometimes we walk there, it’s not really all that bad, it’s more psychological in terms of it being a barrier between the areas east and west.
“I wouldn’t take this walk (even ignoring the underpass) to Hot Doug’s, but if I were willing to walk that far, I guess I’d consider Chief O’Neills (for the nice outside seating) and Target.”
“Not sure if any of these qualify under the “regularly” criteria”
Or are necessarily “worth the walk”. And I’m in skeptic’s camp in preferring to walk a mile or two over spending 80%+ as long on a bus on in a cab.
“Aside from HD & Kuma’s, Cornerstone, Traspasada, N Bar, Urban Belly, Orbit Room, Michelle’s, some hidden tennis courts. Not sure if any of these qualify under the “regularly” criteria”
Urban belly has never really appealed to us for some reason and we generally like that kinda stuff. Also, I had to stop going to the Chief for a year or so. We were planning to go with family and told that they had to close the garden b/c they had some kinda pug convention with the what I had to believe highly predictable outcome.
“But I have a friend who just moved from a house on the 2800 block of Roscoe, and I thought he was kidding when he told me (a few weeks ago) that Hot Doug’s actually helped him sell his house, which he did earlier this year.”
Nice–was it in the listing comments? I’ll need to query the MLS for that.
Ha, no, I think he just said the eventual purchaser said that was the deciding factor!
Skeptic isn’t kidding. There are 9 closed listings in the MLS that used Hot Doug’s as a key selling point:
MLS # Status Street Number Compass Point Street Name Street Suffix Unit Number City Search Price
07708244 CLSD 3223 N CALIFORNIA AVE G Chicago 40000
07273400 CLSD 3266 N CALIFORNIA AVE Chicago 207500
07460979 CLSD 2841 W ROSCOE ST Chicago 220000
06972193 CLSD 3028 W ROSCOE ST 404 Chicago 275000
07328875 CLSD 3028 W ROSCOE ST 204 Chicago 284900
07582141 CLSD 2730 W MELROSE ST Chicago 295000
06778475 CLSD 3028 W ROSCOE 303 Chicago 309900
06923584 CLSD 3028 W ROSCOE 303 Chicago 309900
07303904 CLSD 3240 N CALIFORNIA AVE 3N Chicago 317500
“Remarks: AVONDALE BUNGALOW 1.5 BLOCKS TO RIVER & RIVERWALK, FAMOUS HOT DOUG’S AT CORNER. WELL MAINTAINED HOME W/OAK FLOORS IN MAIN FLOOR BR’S, LIVING RM & DINING RM. NEW COPPER PLUMBING. NEWER ROOF, BOILER & WATER HEATER. HUGE BASEMENT W/HIGH CEILINGS, W/DOOR TO BACKYARD. LARGE COVERED REAR DECK. AREA IMPROVEMENTS INCL: SIDEWALKS, RE-PAVED STREET & STREET LAMPS, CLOSE TO SCHOOLS, 90/94, PARKS, ADDISON MALL. A GREAT VALUE!”
“$70K discount! Custom Nate Berkus Designed condo featured on OPRAH & in Chicago Magazine. Final (MODEL) unit in elevator bldg. Luxurious upgrades. Private Sun Porch. Custom Milan KitCab, Corian Cntr. XLarge peninsula, lots of cabinet space, SS Appl’s, WaterWorks & Hansgrohe, Whirlpool, Stone Floors, full w/d & more. Common Roof decks w’stunning city views! Heated garage parking included. CHIEF O’NEILS & HOT DOUG’S!!!”
Are you guys kidding? Being next to Hot Doug’s is a *huge* selling point. Just think: on a whim you can walk a couple blocks and be…in a two hour line for a gourmet hot doug. Could life get any better?
“Skeptic isn’t kidding. There are 9 closed listings in the MLS that used Hot Doug’s as a key selling point:”
Well, the lines are ridiculous. Advantage of living close by would be if you could look at line and decide wehtehr to go and (at least used to be case) skip line for carry out.
Easy decision for me to go to redhot ranch instead.
You can call ahead and walk past the line. I did that once, but then I sat at a table with my food and was promptly scolded by a Hot Doug’s employee…makes sense.
^
need to have a large enough order or be friends with the Big Dog for that.
Is that shower for real? Do you really have to poke your head in the skylight to fit in it?
I guess that is a reflection from the skylight over the tub. You will have to crouch down to fit.
“I guess that is a reflection from the skylight over the tub. You will have to crouch down to fit.”
Or have hobbit legs.
Speaking of which, where is Groove?
more restaurant suggestions
Mirabell (German/Austrian) Addison and Kmart
Little Bucharest Elston and Spaulding
Thai Thai is really good on Elston near IPR
”
Aye on the Chief, and Christina’s, which has the $2 Guinness up on Kedzie & Grace. Our
“
then is this an over improvement for that neighborhood?
“Or have hobbit legs.
Speaking of which, where is Groove?”
i am here, working “summer hours” so i need to get the same work done in 3 hours less a day. add to that i refuse to do work at home in the summer means less cribchatting.
so now on the the real crib chatting…….WTF hot dougs lines? i still have never eaten there as everytime i make the trip or am passing by its way to busy.
and to me I LIVE IN CHICAGO so i can get a dang hot dog anywhere. and if i want a specail goose, duck, aligator sausage i just get a polish and throw fancy mustard on it and it taste the dang same.
the same f’ing reason i dont eat at smoque anymore. i can get great BBQ anywhere in the city i am not going to wait in line just to get a table or wait in line to to get to the front to find out that are out of ribs or brisket.
more over, these stupid brunch places have lines out the door on sunday mornings. F dat, when i could go three block down and not wait get a table with just as good food and not have a view of people in a line staring at me to finish fast so they can sit. there are hundreds of places that can make me fillet benedict
“Mirabell (German/Austrian) Addison and Kmart”
never have to wait for a table and never have left unhappy. but its been a few years so it may have changed.
It’s really very mixed right now, there was a flurry of new construction right before the housing bust, and there are lots of owners who rehab. But there are loads of my neighbors who have been there for 25 – 50 years and their homes show it – newer neighbors are people like teachers and other lower-middle class folks who just want a place of their own and aren’t in any hurry to make improvements. But, they shovel, take care of their yards and in general pass the “Royko Litmus Test” for good neighbors.
“then is this an over improvement for that neighborhood?”
oh, and totally with Groove on a friggin’ hot dog. Hot Doug’s is good, Kuma’s is good, but at the moment these places are largely almost tourist destinations for people from Roscoe Village, Lake View and the burbs.
Excellent historical piece/overview of Avondale here:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/15575878
Jeff Town w/John kane: Avondale
He touches on the newer restaurants near the end.
“then is this an over improvement for that neighborhood?”
“It’s really very mixed right now, there was a flurry of new construction right before the housing bust, and there are lots of owners who rehab.”
Is it the only area that close in to loop where you could buy a SFH that’s pretty nicely finished sub $400K? May still be over improved for hood, and over improved for the particular size of property, but that would be the appeal. If I want to spend $375K on close in niceish SFH, what are alternatives? Have to go out to Irving Park and beyond, right?
You mean that close to the loop except anywhere south or west, right?
“the same f’ing reason i dont eat at smoque anymore. i can get great BBQ anywhere in the city i am not going to wait in line just to get a table or wait in line to to get to the front to find out that are out of ribs or brisket.”
Call ahead, walk in the exit 90 seconds before the time they quote you, watch them bag your stuff, pay and leave. Only thing that doesn’t travel *well* are the fires, which you eat on the drive home. No big deal.
“You mean that close to the loop except anywhere south or west, right?”
He means that close to the loop and w/o higher perceived/actual crime than Logan.
“Call ahead, walk in the exit 90 seconds before the time they quote you, watch them bag your stuff, pay and leave. Only thing that doesn’t travel *well* are the fires, which you eat on the drive home. No big deal.”
good idea, LOL on the fries cuz its so true 🙂
crap now i am hungry fro BBQ and fries. plus have officially not said anything about RE or this listing on this post
“good idea, LOL on the fries cuz its so true:
You seem to go on the wrong days…I’ve never waited more than approx. 15 minutes from the time I walk in until the time I receive my food. I finally tried Honey 1 a week or two ago and it took longer than that and there was practically nobody in there. And it was good, but I thought it was overpriced for what I received. Maybe I’ll go back there for the lunch special.
Although, in full disclosure, I ordered the pulled pork sandwich at Honey 1, which I’m now aware is not what people generally go there for.
Interesting amount of sales in this area. . . I think 2827 n whipple, 2949 n troy, 3127 n sawyer and 3119 n sawyer all closed recently, almost all for well over $300k.
here’s one close-by also for sale:
http://www.trulia.com/property/3056935555-3109-N-Sawyer-Ave-Chicago-IL-60618?utm_campaign=everyblock&utm_medium=everyblock&utm_source=everyblock
lots of older folks seem to be heading to the burbs/heading to the pearly gates (or that other place!)
“You seem to go on the wrong days…I’ve never waited more than approx. 15 minutes from the time I walk in until the time I receive my food.”
dooode i always went at lunch time and if driving through on a Saturday around 5pm. but its been over a year since i went.
“on a Saturday around 5pm”
That’s crazy time. Never, without ordering ahead.
““on a Saturday around 5pm”
That’s crazy time. Never, without ordering ahead.”
but that used to be groove family prime time, you know just enough time to eat out and get the kid back for a bath books/songs bottle of milk and to bed on time.
“but that used to be groove family prime time, you know just enough time to eat out and get the kid back for a bath books/songs bottle of milk and to bed on time.”
Pick up, eat at home, enjoy a couple extra beers that you wouldn’t have had out. Perfect!!
“Pick up, eat at home, enjoy a couple extra beers that you wouldn’t have had out. Perfect!!”
i learned to do that for fat willy’s long ago. and i the only reason i eat in at russels is for the nostalgia.
given i miss drinking 40oz with my meal there, it tasted so bad but its so dorky cool its enjoyable.
“fat willy’s”
screwed me once, their response was “It’s Saturday”, not likely to ever go back.
“screwed me once, their response was “It’s Saturday”, not likely to ever go back.”
wife and i have the same philosophy, piss me off once and i got 100 other place close to us that wont.
i would have never gone back either. i probably would have just got up and walked out. I have done that at mccormick and shits on a busy day just got up said no thanks and we walked out. never again going to any location.
“fat willy’s”
“screwed me once, their response was “It’s Saturday”, not likely to ever go back.”
smoque’s food is way better than f willys, speaking as someone who would much rather it be the other way around, so not missing much.
“smoque’s food is way better than f willys”
That’s also agreed. But the way it went down, I wouldn’t be back if it were reversed–I’d eat (and pay for) food *from* Willys, but wouldn’t set foot in the place again.
““smoque’s food is way better than f willys”
That’s also agreed. But the way it went down, I wouldn’t be back if it were reversed–I’d eat (and pay for) food *from* Willys, but wouldn’t set foot in the place again.”
you guys dont find smoque to be too vinegary based at times? but i agree that its better than fat willy’s but for me not by that much.
anon you are more man than me, as i wouldnt even give them any of my business ever again. as anyone can slap sangwich on my plate its all in the customer service aspect on how you do it.
“anon you are more man than me, as i wouldnt even give them any of my business ever again. ”
Oh, I won’t be “back” as is, I was hypothesizing if I liked it as much–relatively speaking–as smoque.
On smoque–they have different sauces for different meat. I don’t think that the rib sauce is vinegary at all, but the brisket sauce definitely is (I don’t think too much, tho), and I don’t know that I’ve ever had the pulled pork sammy, but believe that to be sauced with a heavily vinegar sauce.
well went and got BBQ for dinner last night after all the talk. we cant do these talks on hot days. i am not able to workout to offset all the food eaten. i was still full at breakfast this morning.
the pulled pork and brisket is the same sauce, but the different meat absorb and burn(smoke off) certain flavors. I have a buddy who is a chemist and can talk all nerdy about these things.
he was the one who explained to me all major brand drinks even alcohol are not made like a cooking recipe. they are made by a chemist.
I noticed recently that there is a store in Avondale on Belmont selling cute little baby chicks for those of you who would like to keep pet chickens in your backyard. I can’t remember the name of it or the exact location, but it was somewhere between Kimball and Rockwell on the north side of Belmont. If I had my own yard I would love to have pet chickens and fresh eggs. Chickens make really nice pets. You just have to learn how to care for them properly if you are going to keep them outside in the winter, or else you have to be able to keep them in your basement.
UNDER CONTRACT – WOW THAT WAS FAST
HD: You don’t have to tell me how hot the flipper market is. I see it every day in nearly every neighborhood (except maybe Humboldt Park where they are trying to do the flips but are less successful at a quick sale.)
Some of the rehabbers are making $200k or more off these houses (depending on the original condition.) And hey- good for them.
This particular house was in a pretty good location for Avondale. But personally, there’s no way I would pay close to $400k for this. That is NOT middle class housing (even though this IS a middle class neighborhood.) What’s the school over there? (other than catholic?)
I could live very, very well in Oak Park or other suburbs for this price.
I know- NOT the same thing. But for those who “love” the city- have you BEEN to Avondale lately? Probably not. In my opinion- more “city” things to do in Oak Park with better restaurants, movies, shopping etc.
Everyone wants NEW, NEW, NEW. That is ALL that matters. Even if half the neighborhood is underwater on their properties and there are foreclosures popping up around you every day.
Check out 3219 N. Central Park. Another renovation/flip nearby. Also under contract pretty quickly.
That house on 3219 N. Central Park shows you what housing should cost if the land can be purchased cheap enough.
LOFL. Sabrina, I respect your opinion but this is a pretty substantial exaggeration (or wishful thinking for suburbanites).
This house is a 10-15 minute walk to the Square to the south, to Kuma’s/Orbit Room to the east, and, um, strip mall shopping to the north. And Chief O’Neill’s and Abby Pub are close. No more than 20 minutes gets you to all the madness down at the California blue line stop.
You can get to the City North 14 theater in 5 minutes by car, 10 by bike (never tried PT) or about 20 by walking. Wrigley is a bus ride away. Lake View’s offerings are a bus ride.
Oak Park? Borrrrrrring.
Local school I’m guessing is Avondale/Logandale, which are pretty undesirable for middle class folks. But getting east or SE isn’t that hard, and the subway & expressway are like having your own transporter when compared to the clusterfrack that can be the “greener zone” hoods like Roscoe Village, West Lakeview, big chunks of Logan Sq and Bucktown, etc.
“I know- NOT the same thing. But for those who “love” the city- have you BEEN to Avondale lately? Probably not. In my opinion- more “city” things to do in Oak Park with better restaurants, movies, shopping etc.”
Milwaukee Ave isn’t doing Avondale any favors. Nor is the super eclectic mix of poles, hispanics, hipsters and old timers. Nor are elementary schools like Scammon:
“As of 2009-2010, there were 1029 students enrolled at SCAMMON. 94.8% were low income Students. 8.6% were Special Education Students. 34.4% were Limited English Learners.”
Personally, I believe that long term gentrification will to develop north and west of the green zone, gentrifying avondale, albany park and uptown. But the housing depression has to end and jobs for new 20 something emigrees need to organically arises, and the schools need to improve in the process too.
skeptic personally I think your belief in “long term” gentrification is a bit naive considering it hasn’t happened yet in significant areas.
And what makes you think gentrification will even last where it has already occurred? Are you honestly aware of how bad this “Great Recession” (ie GD2) is? You don’t sound like you have any fucking idea from the way you’ve been talking lately. You sound like a moron.
Look at the white gentrifiers: are they having kids and staying in sufficient quantity to truly change the incomes of the neighborhoods? Are they really changing schools in sufficient quantity? No.
Let me tell you if the area next door has a crap school and it’s still the same municipality they aren’t immune to falling valuations.
You seem attached to this urban dream that you think is real and attainable. I’m here to tell you it largely doesn’t or won’t exist for middle class people.
Avondale is a joke and any person that buys there thinking it’s the next hot thing is an idiot considering easy financing is getting cut back. The percentage of low income students alone speaks to how the demographics of the neighborhood truly are.
The era of Mr. Whitey from the suburbs moving to city to gentrify it is not only over, it’s going to work in reverse. For a long time. Skeptic I am guessing you are skinny jeans wearing cable TV having MTV2 watching Mr. Whitey.
Avondale is dead. Wicker Park is dead. Bucktown is dead. Lakeview is in trouble. Most of LP might be okay, but parts are in trouble.
White hipsters don’t buy 300k+ properties when you need a 20% downpayment and the income to back it up. Nor do their accountant friends who want a “gritty” city experience and to be looked up to by said hipsters. The fucking ponzi scheme is over.
“The percentage of low income students alone speaks to how the demographics of the neighborhood truly are.”
Schools are v important but I hope you do understand that schools can be v binary. Either they suck and you wouldn’t think of sending your kid their or everyone agrees it’s good and wants to send their kid there (that’s overstating it but there’s an element of that dynamic that’s important). On my block, there just under 10 families with kids. Two of them are working class, both parents working, families; rest are solidly upper middle class. Only one of the families sends their kid to the local school, which is actually not horrendous. But if people managed to transform the school more, *and* everyone sent their kids there, it would be a v viable school. Not at all easy, but can change and change quickly, and has happened elsewhere.
“Avondale is dead. Wicker Park is dead. Bucktown is dead. Lakeview is in trouble. Most of LP might be okay, but parts are in trouble.”
Really don’t think that’s true wrt bucktown/wicker. I don’t discount that prices could fall significantly more, but don’t think they will degentrify anytime in the foreseeable future. Could do so in 30 yrs I suppose, don’t have any idea of that far out. Also, bucktown’s elem is likely to be good soon.
You might be right DZ I dunno. I generally dislike those areas so that might be emotion talking. But yeah gentrification doesn’t happen overnight and de-gentrification won’t happen overnight either.
Dz: where in avondale are their blocks of solidly upper class children?
Same goes for Bucktown/Wicker Park. Not many families and none I know with kids older than 5yrs old.
upper-middle class, sorry.
I did a20 mins search of all the major elementary schoools in the gz and most of them are pretty bad. Like jahn, agassiz, etc. There are really very few viable public school options absent magnets except for bell, blane, nettelhusrt, coonley (which isn’t even that great compared to say park ridge), burley. And a handful of others like lincoln. Even ocsar mayer in the heat of west lincoln park has an over 50% low income/Free lunch rate. SSupposedly pulaski is up and coming (yeah right) becuae nealy all the schools west of the highway were terrible except for the far nw side like norwood, edgebrook, edison, and a handful of others. Even sauganash was only decent bc anyone with 6000 a year send their kid to quuen of all saints. Long term the schools will be the achilles heel for the recently gentrified areas. Even if they could change around the school, they’d still have to. Relocated all the lower income renters with multiple children who drasrically reduce tests scores.
HD, just curious, are you even considering sending your kid(s) to private (be it one of the (4?) fancy secular joints, or the Catholic schools)?
I’m honestly torn. We live in the Lincoln elem attendance area, which was (and still is) something about which I feel quite good. But even beyond the obvious high school gambles, I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t an additional benefit to sending a kid to the same school from start to finish, thereby providing greater stability and continuity, and avoiding the stressful, socially complicated and potentially geographically suboptimal process of public high school admissions and attendance. Granted, all of this hinges on (i) whether my kid(s) can get into private school and (ii) whether I can afford it. But it’s something we’re really starting to thing seriously about.
I’m curious how many affluent families in $1 million + SFHs in NC, RV, Linc Sq, etc. couldn’t get their kids in to the fancy privates (but could afford them) vs. how many didn’t even try, regardless of admissions prospects and finances.
“where in avondale are their blocks of solidly upper class children?”
“Same goes for Bucktown/Wicker Park. Not many families and none I know with kids older than 5yrs old.”
No idea about avondale. Don’t really know about bucktown/wicker although I do know two families now that bought in pulaski specifically to send their about to start K kids there. My main point was that schools with bad/mediocre demo/performance can change. Not easy, but not impossible. Course if it was going to change soon, there would be some intel out there on it.
“SSupposedly pulaski is up and coming (yeah right)”
Have you actually paid any attention to what is going on there? Do you believe that it is possible for a cps elem to be turned around.
“are you even considering sending your kid(s) to private (be it one of the (4?) fancy secular joints, or the Catholic schools)?”
Not that you asked me, but I really don’t like the idea of the fancy secular joints much at all and catholic is not really for us. That’s why the local cps is a big factor for us.
LOFL. Bob, as someone who has grown up in the once-sketchy and now ludicrously gentrified areas of the north side, your opinion is beyond meaningless to me. Your major malfunction is you don’t understand that schools are actually not even remotely important to a huge percentage of people period, and that for the ones who do care about schools, they aren’t intimidated by the concept of -gasp!- traveling an extra 10 or 15 minutes to go to a school of their choice. Take your backwater mentality and bizarre delusion that life in the suburbs is like the Brady Bunch back where you came from, my peeps could care less what you think about Chicago.
The fancy secular joints are not really an option financially or socially and even if they were I doubt I’d really consider it. I’d much much rather send my children to a great public school like Bell, Edgebrook, or secondary catholic like Viators ST Mary of the Woods or Queen of All Saints. The third options are public schools in park ridge, or some other suburb (la grange, elmhurst, etc). The crap schools like Jahn or Belding are not viable options. I’d love to save a small fortune by not paying private schools, because it’s not like I have a pension of $3,000 a month from the city to rely on when I’m old, so I’ll go public at all costs.
In my opinion: Catholic schools are the future of the city. They are affordable for the middle class (with tuition at the less-than-elite Catholic grade schools starting at 3,000) and offer a better education than most-if-not all of the CPS schools.
“Your major malfunction ”
Actually Private Pile I don’t have a major malfunction.
“Take your backwater mentality and bizarre delusion that life in the suburbs is like the Brady Bunch back where you came from”
“they aren’t intimidated by the concept of -gasp!- traveling an extra 10 or 15 minutes to go to a school of their choice.”
Mr. Brady Bunch actually isn’t under the impression that this is even remotely possible. I think if you could travel an extra 15 minutes to attend whatever school of your choice the schooling topic would not be so prevalent on sites like here on CC.
“as someone who has grown up in the once-sketchy and now ludicrously gentrified areas of the north side, your opinion is beyond meaningless to me”
It is true that your neighborhood might have been crap before the yuppies came, and now it is not. But if you think that is maintainable without providing what yuppies who are willing to overpay for just about everything and look for and demand you are wrong.
You’ll probably do fine considering you were used to a lifestyle and could live in one the transplant, transient yuppies (and I use that term generously many are actually quite beyond “young”) cannot. They have little loyalty to an area as well and aren’t really into putting “roots” down. I know about that latter fact as I’m like them in that regard.
You might be a salt of the earther from your hood but salt of the earthers are not what gentrified things. It was people from outside with a lot of money who wanted the best of both worlds: an urban lifestyle so they can walk to the bar and starbucks and all of the amenities and creature comforts of the leafy suburb they grew up in.
They are also big into kids, well actually two of them.
Salt of the earthers maybe not as much because lets be honest life hasn’t been quite the cakewalk for them, and they aren’t as worried about what others think so they might have none or 3 or 4.
But for this new neighborhood money and demographic crapping out progeny that perpetuate their genes are just the bees knees to them. Even if they are dumb fvcks and it’s family money. So long as its under 2 kids per yuppie couple as they don’t want to be ridiculed at their “sustainable” wine dinner parties. They are rather dumb too in thinking that if they have fewer kids and give them the best of the best things will work out for the better long-term. They understand financial diversification but not genetic. That’s why they’re a blip on the radar screen, longer-term.
And thats why eventually your neighborhood will revert back to what it was: a neighborhood for people used to the difficulties and travails of city living. Corruption, lacking city services, failing public schools, and all.
Err 2 kids or under. Or if they have 3 they have some excuse about why it’s more than 3 at their dumbass dinner wine parties.
Their precise need for affirmation in life from their peer circle is exactly why many won’t stay in these neighborhoods as well.
“You seem attached to this urban dream that you think is real and attainable. I’m here to tell you it largely doesn’t or won’t exist for middle class people…”
I agree, there is some fantasy that once cities are ‘back to white upper class’ all will be OK. Just push ‘those scary people’ out. I do get tired of hearing “an area has arrived” since Starbucks is there and ‘educated and enlightened’ aka ‘moneyed whites’ move in.
And who’s to say Lake View will always be ‘paradise’? Garfield Park was a rich area in 1880’s to 20’s, then Great Depression.
Point is city can’t be all one ‘class’ of people. Or just rich and ‘disadvantaged’. Instead of spending $$ on bike lanes, landscaping and festivals, how about help existing businesses or bringing in new ones?
“Their precise need for affirmation in life from their peer circle is exactly why many won’t stay in these neighborhoods as well.”
Totally agree, the GZ is like a big High School or country club. Have to ‘keep up appearances’ and climb the social ladder. Get in with the Queen bees, etc. Just like the suburbs they mock. Better have granite counters and SS appliances or else!
“And who’s to say Lake View will always be ‘paradise’? Garfield Park was a rich area in 1880’s to 20’s, then Great Depression.”
Good point Tomm though probably lost on many 😉
Sigh. You folks truly don’t see the big picture.
Number 1, it was most certainly the “salt of the earthers” who improved the COMMUNITY. The McMansion-dwelling freaks (and I’m guessing Bob) don’t actually do any hard work as far as volunteering and the multiple other ways decent folks get involved in their community.
Second, the surburban-sprawl fantasy that led so many people to leave is DEAD. there is NO WATER for endless new subdivisions being built out in the flood plains. there is never again going to be CHEAP GAS to enable the “drive-everywhere” design (and I use that term loosely) of exurbia.
The crush of people back to the city was inevitable, and the places to look at to see our future are Madrid, Rome, Paris, London, etc. – the city centers become increasingly expensive and desirable due to the infrastructure, and eventually the poorer folks get pushed outwards in every direction – and you can’t push people into the lake.
Bob, I like you. I don’t mean to slam you, but you have to realize that people like me take a huge amount of pride in our neighborhoods – that’s what got gentrification rolling in the first place, the people who stopped caring/didn’t want to put effort in just left.
It ain’t gonna happen again – the Great Depression is essentially right now, we have something like 80% unemployment in the black commiunity in the teen/early twenty demographic, the USA at a whole is probably at about 20 unemployed (forget those jerryrigged stats – just cause you get cut off from unemployment doesn’t mean you have a job).
As for Avondale, this morning we drove to register our kid at the Lake View Y, where I learned how to swim. Took 5 minutes. Walked around the new school, hit Dinkel’s, hit Toys R Us on the way home. No traffic. Easy-peezy. Suburban people have finally figured out that people like me are actually living the life they want to live, they just clusterfucked themselves with bad urban planning to the point that it’s no longer possible. The majority of my friends are from the burbs, very, very, very few have any desire to return, under any circmstances. A good job offer in Portland, Brooklyn or San Fran, different story.
Anyway, have a great day CC’ers- will be enjoying playing music, drinking beer, grilling and water mayhem with my crew & my double lot. : )
“You might be a salt of the earther from your hood but salt of the earthers are not what gentrified things.”
““And who’s to say Lake View will always be ‘paradise’? Garfield Park was a rich area in 1880’s to 20’s, then Great Depression.”
Take a look at Lincoln Sq. then look at Milwaukee Ave NW of Belmont.
Businesses are THRIVING in places that are smart, and catering to a pedestrian and cycling demographic.
Wait until the Logan Sq blue line station gets renovated with a new plaza and fancy bike parking, we’ve already got tourists coming for Longman & Eagle, we’re going to steal business away from the Loop more and more.
“Instead of spending $$ on bike lanes, landscaping and festivals, how about help existing businesses or bringing in new ones?”
“I’m curious how many affluent families in $1 million + SFHs in NC, RV, Linc Sq, etc. couldn’t get their kids in to the fancy privates (but could afford them) vs. how many didn’t even try, regardless of admissions prospects and finances.”
This happens, the kids end up at Lane Tech, which reportedly has an “honors” program, but still the initial reaction of these parents to sending kids to Lane is not a happy one. They get over it, and deal with it. Not everyone can end up marrying a supermodel, so you learn to deal in life.
““Businesses are THRIVING in places that are smart, and catering to a pedestrian and cycling demographic.”
PS However, how much business can someone be doing catering to people who ride bikes or walk? what’s of real value that’s transported or carried on bike or foot?
It cannot compare to the $$$ volume of the purchaser that has an automobile with a back seat & trunk, or an SUV.
“As for Avondale, this morning we drove to register our kid at the Lake View Y, where I learned how to swim. Took 5 minutes. Walked around the new school, hit Dinkel’s, hit Toys R Us on the way home. No traffic. Easy-peezy. Suburban people have finally figured out that people like me are actually living the life they want to live, they just clusterfucked themselves with bad urban planning to the point that it’s no longer possible. The majority of my friends are from the burbs, very, very, very few have any desire to return, under any circmstances. A good job offer in Portland, Brooklyn or San Fran, different story.”
I don’t mind Avondale as a gentrifying area. But I would pay $225k NOT $400k for Avondale. That’s my point. All the neighbors are paying $100k to $150k less than that flipper house. It’s outrageous to pay $400k in that neighborhood. As I said- that is NOT middle class housing but that IS a middle class neighborhood.
And as for people moving to Portland or San Fran- why? So they can live in the suburbs and drive everywhere? Because, unless you’re Zuckerberg, you’re NOT moving to San Francisco, living IN the city limits and walking to the trendy restaurants etc.
San Francisco has the same problem as Chicago: the schools suck. And then to top it off the housing is double or triple the cost- even in the fog infested “middle class” neighborhoods.
Everyone I knew who lived in San Francisco when I lived there 10 years ago- now lives in the suburbs! Yes indeed. Better schools, better weather and they BART or drive (some live in Silicon Valley now.)
I agree with whomever it was who said that the cities cannot survive with only the rich. American cities have always had a middle class. When middle class housing goes out the window in neighborhoods like Avondale or Portage Park- there is something wrong with that picture.
Bay area is so expensive. I have a few friends and a cousin living in down town. All my friends are dual career couples with high paying jobs and have either no or one young kid and even the ones with kids live in 1 or 2BRs as they could not afford anything else! My cousin has a nice place but it is mostly because my uncle helped her out. I cannot imagine anyone relocating from Chicago to Bay area being able to improve their housing condition.
Agreed miumiu.
the bay area is obscenely expensive. I have friends in San Diego and Los Angeles, and while those are pricey cities, they are still pretty livable for an average person. The bay area is crazy. My cousin lives in the burbs ( San Jose, San something? ) and recently bought a 750k home after nearly a decade of saving – not because she is spendy, but because that is what it cost her for a 2100 sq foot newer construction home in the burbs, and with 2 kids it was a necessity..from what she tells me a million dollar property in san francisco is usually a very very average one. I know for a fact that in los angeles( aside from malibu, beverly hills , brentwood, etc ) chicago , san diego, etc 750-1 mil still goes a long long way.
Were I to live in SF, it wouldn’t be in the city…it would be in the “burbs” (if you must call them that). Then again, I don’t associate SF with “city life.” Walkability to trendy anything is immaterial (at least to most people with kids), even in an actual city. Anyways, I love the SF bay AREA – notice the opperative (albeit obnoxiously) all-caps word there?
On my Sat and/or Sun mornings, I like to stroll down the block and into the park and onto the lakefront. It doesn’t involve a car or parking (unless the weather is wet or brutally cold, in which case it’s a quick drive or bus ride down to the Shedd, Science & Indus, etc.). If I lived in the SF area, those mornings would entail hopping in a car and driving to some jaw-droppingly spectacular spot on the coast or in the woods. There is nothing jaw-droppingly spectacular within a 40 to 120 minute drive of Chicago (maybe the B’hai temple?).
It’s simply a different lifestyle. The one thing SF and Chi share is, of course, school challenges, though I would argue that Chi is significantly better than SF on that front (at a minimum, it’s not in CA, where it doesn’t matter where one lives in terms of public education).
“We live in the Lincoln elem attendance area, which was (and still is) something about which I feel quite good.”
Lincoln is one of the best public elementary schools in the state and has been ranked the #1 attendance area elementary school in Chicago. You have nothing to worry about and f your child is smart, there is an IB prep program that carries on into LP High.
“There is nothing jaw-droppingly spectacular within a 40 to 120 minute drive of Chicago (maybe the B’hai temple?).”
Anonny- you apparently have never been to the Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore- a National Park just about an hour from Chicago (or less- depending on traffic.) It’s quite spectacular.
Or go to Ft. Sheridan. It is quite stunning… almost like a national park (even though it is just a Lake County Forest Preserve site).
“Not many families and none I know with kids older than 5yrs old.”
Doesnt that describe who you know in Chicago, in general, Bob? I’d be surprised if you know more than a few anywhere in Illinois with kids over 5. Seems like sampling bias.
“Doesnt that describe who you know in Chicago, in general, Bob? I’d be surprised if you know more than a few anywhere in Illinois with kids over 5. Seems like sampling bias.”
Was at a mini fest this weekend. Quite a few kids, maybe 10-15. None older than five.
Could it be people with kids over 5 participate in completely different leisure activities than those who don’t have kids or whose kids are under 5? Sure. Is it likely? No.
Right, Bob, which just demonstrates that you dont know anyone with kids over 5.
No it doesn’t as this was not restricted to people’s social circles. It was an open attendance event.
Basically it proves to me most of these SWPLs are living in a fantasy world where they don’t come to grips that they can’t hack it in the city until it comes time for their little ones to enter schools then they hightail it out to the suburbs.
“No it doesn’t as this was not restricted to people’s social circles. It was an open attendance event.”
Um, if you *knew* anyone with kids over five, you’d say “my friends (or co-worker or whatever) in the western burbs, who used to live in GZ” or something rather than citing to people you *don’t* know, but happened to be in the presence of.
I, too, was at a “mini fest” this weekend and saw *many* kids over five.
Bob has no clue what he’s talking about.
I was at a fest too, lots kids and the ages were all over the place. I think bob is so old he doesn’t know the difference between a 10 yro and a 30 yro.
Mr. Vlajos, don’t make Bob angry. You wouldn’t like him when he’s angry.
Especially on Monday morning.
Bob is always angry
I agree with many of Bob’s observations about people not doing smart family planning when choosing real estate, I just think he doesn’t realize how many people 1. don’t have/have no plans to have kids, and 2. aren’t intimidated by choosing a school out of one’s attendance area.
Sabrina, it’s just a quality-of-life issue (or at least, perception). Nobody I know is moving south. Nobody. The ones who moved to the SW are moving back, and water issues are sometimes a big factor – we take water for granted here, it’s a luxury for us.
“And as for people moving to Portland or San Fran- why? So they can live in the suburbs and drive everywhere? Because, unless you’re Zuckerberg, you’re NOT moving to San Francisco, living IN the city limits and walking to the trendy restaurants etc.”
Depends on your time frame and what you really think the premium/discount ought to be compared to Lake View.
I find the obsession over community names & neighborhoods just kind of funny, personally. I can’t fathom why someone would pay 50% more for my house just to have it in a more congested and infrastructure-challenged part of the City – but I’m looking at things from a “lifer’s” perspective, that’s a big distinction, and those are the folks I know moving to Avondale. Not people worried about sub Zero fridges or stone countertops but just folks who want more space – including a yard (and that is HUGE) – than a condo to the east offers.
“It’s outrageous to pay $400k in that neighborhood. “
So I’m trying to figure out what the snark value of calling someone this is, this concerns someone being politically correct or “ultra-liberal,” I take it?
Here’s a newsflash for everyone – all the neighborhoods that gentrify begin with a bunch of hippies or other progressively-minded folks moving in. How many of you actually remember what Old Town was like in the 70s, when it’s largest store was the Bizarre Bazaar?
“SWPL”
Skeptic:
Bob is shorthanding “Stuff White People Like”.
“Here’s a newsflash for everyone – all the neighborhoods that gentrify begin with a bunch of hippies or other progressively-minded folks moving in.”
I’m trying to think of a single place in this country that is both a highly desirable place to live AND predominantly politically conservative. The only one I can think of is San Diego, but I’m not even sure as to its current political climate.
“I’m trying to think of a single place in this country that is both a highly desirable place to live AND predominantly politically conservative. The only one I can think of is San Diego, but I’m not even sure as to its current political climate.”
The OC.
ha, yes, I got that, thanks. : )
just still not sure what the “SWPL” stereotype itself is, that site got old pretty fast, IMO. haven’t checked it out in years.
“Bob is shorthanding “Stuff White People Like”.
The north shore elected mark kirk as their us rep for many years.
“anon (tfo) on August 22nd, 2011 at 10:21 am
Skeptic:
Bob is shorthanding “Stuff White People Like”.”
This should read:
Bob is shorthanding “Stuff White old suburbanites like”
“The north shore elected mark kirk as their us rep for many years.”
Starting north of Winnetka–meaning *not* a “highly desirable” in anonny’s calculus.
Skeptic: you really equate “swpl” with “ultra-liberal” or “hippie” (pregressively-minded depends on your definition of “progressive”)?
There is a site about SWPLs that basically gave rise to the term. Sorry vlajos its mostly young people that exhibit SWPL groupthink.
I thought SWPL meant Single White Progressive Liberals… LOL!
politically-correct, mostly. but, yes, progressive (or at least, desiring to be thought of that way).
these come to mind:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/14/66-recycling/
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/10/27/112-hummus/
it’s clearly self-parody, which is why using it as an insult totally misses the mark.
and it seems IMO to mostly about Gen X and beyond distancing themselves from the Boomers, YMMV.
“Skeptic: you really equate “swpl” with “ultra-liberal” or “hippie” (pregressively-minded depends on your definition of “progressive”)?”
too many links, sorry:
>politically-correct, mostly. but, yes, progressive (or at least, desiring to be thought of that way).
this comes to mind:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/14/66-recycling/
it’s clearly self-parody, which is why using it as an insult totally misses the mark.
and it seems IMO to mostly about Gen X and beyond distancing themselves from the Boomers, YMMV.
“Skeptic: you really equate “swpl” with “ultra-liberal” or “hippie” (pregressively-minded depends on your definition of “progressive”)?”