Get a 3-Bedroom Vintage Co-Op Overlooking Lincoln Park for $680,000: 2440 N. Lakeview
This 3-bedroom at 2440 N. Lakeview in East Lincoln Park came on the market in March 2022.
Built in 1927 by Russman & Hirshfeld, it is on Lincoln Park and has Lake Michigan views.
The building has 97 units and an attached parking garage. There are just 2 apartments per floor.
It’s a full service building with 24/7 doormen, an exercise room and a rooftop deck with grills. The listing indicates that some of the common areas have just been renovated.
2440 has numerous recent improvements including seating area in the landscaped courtyard, renovations to the roof top deck and fitness center. Building also features storage and bike storage, as well as laundry room.
This unit has “tree top” views.
It has some of the classic vintage features including hardwood floors throughout, arched ceilings, crown molding and a decorative fireplace in the living room.
The unit has an “updated kitchen” with white cabinets and a “chef’s quality” stove with marble countertops and peninsula seating area.
It has a separate dining room with built-ins.
The unit has the features buyers look for, which are somewhat rare in vintage buildings, including central air, washer/dryer in the unit and garage parking.
The listing says this building is located in the Lincoln Elementary and Lincoln High School school districts.
This building is in a prime location overlooking Lincoln Park, near the Zoo and Conservatory and the shops and restaurants on Clark.
Listed at $680,000, is this an option for those looking for a family home on the Park?
Molly Boyd and Donald Breitfelder at Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices have the listing. See the pictures here.
Or see it at the Open House on Sunday April 3, 2022 from 11 AM to 3 PM.
Unit #3F: 3 bedrooms, 3 baths, 2400 square feet, co-op
- Sold in October 2007 for $510,000 (according to Redfin but because it’s a co-op, not sure this is correct)
- Currently listed at $680,000
- Taxes of $9490
- Assessments of $1356 a month (includes heat, a/c, doorman, cable, insurance, exercise room, exterior maintenance, lawn care, scavenger, snow removal, Internet)
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Garage parking included
- Decorative fireplace
- Bedroom #1: 20×13
- Bedroom #2: 20×13
- Bedroom #3: 8×8
- Living room: 24×15
- Dining room: 19×14
- Kitchen: 15×9
- Foyer: 17×6
I’ve always been rather fond of this building, as it resembles one I lived in long ago in another city (though that place wasn’t so large or expensive)
The room sizes in this building are really large, and even lower-floor units have nice views, as it faces Lincoln Park. The views from upper-story front windows are spectacular.
The kitchen could use a refresh, though the first thing I’d do is apply a dark finish to the floors, either walnut or alderwood. I’ll be glad when the fad for pale floors runs itself out.
The main strike against it is cooperative ownership. It looks like the taxes are stated separately from the HOA. The HOA is very reasonable for a 2400 sq ft unit with 3 baths, in an elderly high rise building. It might even be TOO reasonable- most older high rises, even without large staffs, are more like $0.75 a square foot. The taxes, however, are high, and that’s likely because this is a cooperative and is taxes like a rental building. You don’t get the homestead exemption for your unit, or a senior exemption, one of the many things I have against coops.
I find it hard to understand why co-ops are beneficial. Sure, getting to select responsible neighbors is a perk. But is the living environment really that much different than a mostly owner owned condo building with a 24/7 doorman to police disruptive behavior?
The fake fire in a non-operational fireplace is a nice touch
Views from the pics are shit
Library/DR combo is weird
The little bar area in the kitchen is a waste
They’ve got a 2nd DR table in the LR
Only see 2 Ba
Communal RT deck is nice
“Only see 2 Ba”
3d is likely typical tiny maid’s room bath–3d BR is 8×8, indicating maid’s room. 3d bath is probably pretty similar to the 2d.
Hard for me to parse the space with so few pix. 6f, sold in ’19, has a FP in the listing. They moved some walls to create a 4th BR, but you can figure out the 3 bed layout pretty well:
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2440-N-Lakeview-Ave-60614/unit-6F/home/21941849
9f also had floorplans–they turned the maids room into a breakfast room:
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2440-N-Lakeview-Ave-60614/home/13366223
Thanks TFO
If the pricing is correct in the 2 units you linked to, current owners are higher than a Giraffes ass
“If the pricing is correct in the 2 units you linked to, current owners are higher than a Giraffes ass”
Market is red hot. Inventory is 30% below last year and 50% below 2 years ago. Job market is the best in 50 years. Prices continue to rise in Chicago just based on supply/demand dynamics.
I don’t know why people on this blog don’t get it. Economy is booming. Always means a booming housing market.
Its a Co-op.
“I don’t know why people on this blog don’t get it. Economy is booming. Always means a booming housing market.”
Inflation > Wages
Rates increasing
Nothing like paying peak pricing before the bottom falls out
Great economic advice!
“Job market is the best in 50 years”
it is not
who are you crapping
“The taxes, however, are high, and that’s likely because this is a cooperative and is taxes like a rental building. ”
This is LAUGHABLY inaccurate.
Chicago property taxes are a little over 2% of AMV for o-o residential property. Which means the $9500 tax bill is based on an AMW *below* the 2007 purchase price.
The taxes are *anything but* high.
If this were taxed like commercial property (which includes larger apartment buildings) the taxes would be 2.5x as high, if it still had the same allocated AMV as indicated by the listed tax bill; that is, the rate would be a little over 5% of AMV, and the taxes over $23,000.
So, no, the building is NOT assessed nor taxed like an apartment building. And the taxes paid in 2021 are NOT high.
anon dishing the salt about taxes lately, let me guess, got a nice hike on yours? 🙂
“got a nice hike on yours”
No clue! And won’t know until months late this year, apparently. News is that bills won’t be ready until December.
Based on reports, I think my AV went up less than average, which should mean a small decrease in the bill. But I can’t know for sure until the appeals are mostly done.
But I think that the misunderstanding of the property tax system in Illinois is a major impediment to getting change to happen. And change in the property tax system should happen.
Anon, not “laughably inaccurate”.
Taxes are to a large extent based on land use, not market value, though that is a factor. And new construction & newly rehabbed buildings are taxed at a higher rate than old buildings.
Most older condos in buildings with traditional elements are taxed at more like 1%.
This is a beautiful unit. I love the vintage touches like the arched doorways and the fireplace. The HOA is less than I expected, too. Parking included, as well, which isn’t always possible with a vintage building in this area.
If it were on a higher floor, or in the front building instead of the rear, it would probably be priced far higher. Maybe $900,000 or more. It’s the low floor and partially blocked views that bother me.
About the job market: It is pretty good right now if you measure by unemployment claims, which fell to their lowest weekly level since 1969 this week (must be what Sabrina is referring to). Unemployment rate of 3.6% is also the lowest in decades, about equal to the rate right before the pandemic.
Wages are also going up, rising 0.4% in March, according to the Labor Department. That’s pretty good, but maybe not enough to keep up with inflation.
Those people here who are trying to talk down the health of the job market are the same ones who were crowing about similar numbers when Trump was in office. They’re unable to admit anything could ever go right for the economy with a Democrat in the White House. Same stuff I’ve heard for 40 years.
BTW, here’s 12E, which sold for $800,000 last year. Kind of helps prove my point: higher floor helps. I know it’s not the same tier and no, I didn’t check to see if it’s different SF.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2440-N-Lakeview-Ave-UNIT-12E-Chicago-IL-60614/2079085786_zpid/?mmlb=g,2
“Those people here who are trying to talk down the health of the job market are the same ones who were crowing about similar numbers when Trump was in office.”
We had a good job market when Trump was in office. He took over where Obama let off and the unemployment rate continued to go down until the pandemic hit.
But what we are seeing right now is off the charts good. And you can’t just say it’s the “recovery.” The original “recovery” job numbers were a year ago.
Continuing weekly jobless claims are at 1969 lows even though the population has doubled. Wages rising. 11 million job openings, an all time record. We’re not quite, but nearly, back to pre-pandemic job recovery. Heck, even those over age 65 are mostly back to work, if they want to be.
I don’t know how the economy keeps finding another 400,000 people to hire every month. Some states are below 2.5% on unemployment rate. We really need more immigration to fill some of these job openings. It’s only going to get worse at the Baby Boomers keep retiring.
“it is not
who are you crapping”
Yes it is sonies. Turn off Fox News.
February just revised up to 750,000 job gains.
750,000!
And not in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic layoffs (i.e. the recovery.) The last time we had a month like that was in 1984. It is just tremendous. Honestly, after the muddle through recovery we had after the financial crisis, I thought I would never see a number like 750,000 again in my lifetime. And then to do 431,000 in March.
Where are they finding all these people?
This is the best job market in 50 years. Maybe even longer as that’s the oldest year we have the data. Continuing claims are only 1.3 million. For the ENTIRE nation. Same as December 1969 when the population was half what it is now.
The sizzle.
I am happy for younger Millennials and GenZ. Get those dream jobs young people. Get those raises. Go do the thing that scares you. Now is the time. So many employers are so desperate, they will train those without the background.
This won’t last forever. But right now, demographics are on your side. The Fed will slow it this year. The economy is just much too hot. But while it’s this good, lock in a new job at higher pay.
“Nothing like paying peak pricing before the bottom falls out”
No one who bought in the 1970s regretted it. Everyone needs a place to live. Rents are going up at a faster rate than locking in a 30-year fixed will. For many, it makes more sense to buy right now than to rent. We’ve had a decade of most people renting. But that generation, the largest in US history, has now decided they want to build equity. It’s a game changer.
“February just revised up to 750,000 job gains.
750,000!”
March missed expectations by > 10%, funny how you ignore this…
“The sizzle. I am happy for younger Millennials and GenZ. Get those dream jobs young people. Get those raises. Go do the thing that scares you. Now is the time. So many employers are so desperate, they will train those without the background.”
Jobs, yes; housing, no.
“For many, it makes more sense to buy right now than to rent. We’ve had a decade of most people renting. But that generation, the largest in US history, has now decided they want to build equity. It’s a game changer.”
Correct. But for younger Millennials and GenZ (and the ones to follow), the game has not changed in their favor, hot job market aside.
“Taxes are to a large extent based on land use, not market value, though that is a factor.”
Jesus, read the statute.
You are WRONG!!!
And it is a fundamental misunderstanding that stands in the way of developing the popular consensus to make change happen.
“Most older condos in buildings with traditional elements are taxed at more like 1%.”
This is a fantasy that you subscribe to, and not based in reality.
As I *consistently* state–property tax in Chicago is a little over 2% of ASSESSOR’S Market Value (“AMV”) for residential.
If there is a consistent undervaluing of a category of housing, it doesn’t (CANNOT!!) change the tax rate applicable to the AMV. Because there is a single rate, that is determined backwards–the aggregate levy (ie, amount of property tax requested by the taxing governments) is divided over the Equalized Assessed Value.
So, yes, “laughably inaccurate”.
And you just doubled down on it like you’re some sort of Q-bert.
“Correct. But for younger Millennials and GenZ (and the ones to follow), the game has not changed in their favor, hot job market aside.”
Depends on what city you live in. Many hopefully will decide to leave the coasts and head to the affordable flyover country. Still affordable for first time buyers even in “hot” cities like Nashville and Columbus.
Chicago, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and San Antonio are all still “affordable” for starter homes. Don’t move to California, NYC, Boston, DC, Miami or Seattle.
Chicago is actually quite the deal. I’ve recently met some Millennials who decided to leave NYC and buy an apartment in Chicago because they were priced out of NY and wanted to own. They also wanted a similar big, urban environment.
“March missed expectations by > 10%, funny how you ignore this…”
Oh no JohnnyU. First look at March was “only” 431,000 jobs in the month. I’m crying over this devastating “miss.”
Job numbers will be revised several times in the upcoming months. That’s how it works.
There is absolutely NOTHING negative in these job reports other than the rising wages which are inflationary. NOTHING!
It’s the best job reports I have ever seen in my adult lifetime. Like I said, I didn’t think it possible to ever do 750,000 in a month. Or heck, 431,000. During the financial crisis recovery, we did very few over 400,000 for the entire 10 years afterwards. It was terrible.
But this recovery IS different. Youngest millennials and GenZ have few memories of the financial crisis as they were young children. They look at this economy, and housing market, very differently. Haven’t been tainted by a “great recession” or a housing bust. They are all bullish. Employers throwing job offers at them, with really good money.
This is a golden period for them.
“There is absolutely NOTHING negative in these job reports other than the rising wages which are inflationary. NOTHING”
A miss of >10% is not nothing
If you were sober, you’d understand that employment is 1/2 the picture.
“But this recovery IS different. Youngest millennials and GenZ have few memories of the financial crisis as they were young children. They look at this economy, and housing market, very differently. Haven’t been tainted by a “great recession” or a housing bust. They are all bullish. Employers throwing job offers at them, with really good money.”
LOL this is the same Bullshit Boomers like yourself were crowing about in 06 – New Economy, RE only goes up, why yes I’ll use my home like an ATM, I dont need to save for my retirement, thats what my home is for
Stupid old people
“A miss of >10% is not nothing”
Ba ha ha ha.
A few months ago, we had a “miss” of epic proportions. Yawn. Didn’t reflect what was happening in the job market or the economy.
You need to take an economics class desperately JohnnyU. Then the rest of us wouldn’t have to endure you being so clueless about what is the best job market in 50 years.
Yes it is THE BEST JOB MARKET IN 50 YEARS.
Hooray!
Go get it. Go get that big pay raise. It won’t last forever young people. But demographics are on your side for the next several years.
Hmmm:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART
Looks better for 25-54, but not “best since 1970”:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300060
“You need to take an economics class desperately JohnnyU. Then the rest of us wouldn’t have to endure you being so clueless about what is the best job market in 50 years.
Yes it is THE BEST JOB MARKET IN 50 YEARS.”
You need to sober up
Seems odd to be celebrating real wages being negative but sobriety and intelligence arent your strong suits
“Looks better for 25-54, but not “best since 1970”:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300060”
There you go using numbers and data.
Sabrina would like to see it without 2 groups that she hates – Minorities and the poors
“LOL this is the same Bullshit Boomers like yourself were crowing about in 06 – New Economy, RE only goes up, why yes I’ll use my home like an ATM, I dont need to save for my retirement, thats what my home is for”
Nope. Nothing like 2006. Strong lending standards. Buyers not stretched. Most qualified home buyers since the 1990s.
Demographics are a bitch to understand, aren’t they JohnnyU?
Housing market was ALWAYS going to be strong 2020-2024 regardless of a pandemic. ALWAYS. Largest group of Millennials forming families and wanting to buy. Pandemic has messed that up even more with people moving everywhere in the biggest migration since WWII ended. And combined with Baby Boomers retiring at 10,000 per day.
It is NUTS out there.
Builders haven’t been able to meet demand, especially in “hot” cities, for years. Some of that due to the fallout from the housing bubble. Once burned, twice shy.
Housing market will stay tight for years, just due to demographics. And unless they build more densely, it’s not like Santa Monica is going to get a bunch more housing any time soon. LA could be building more high rises downtown however. I’m not sure why they don’t look like Manhattan yet. Seems like a real opportunity. No neighbors to even complain about a bunch of 50 story towers.
Chicago has land, and the builders are building here. Another 20,000 apartments expected to be coming on the market through this decade. I would look for some of those to be condos once pressure to buy picks up steam.
Chicago is in a good position. Milwaukee and St Louis too. Lots of parking lots in their downtowns. Plenty of land to build high rises. San Antonio also still has too many parking lots downtown. Could really build near the Riverwalk and it would be fantastic. Lots of building in midtown right now but mostly mid-rises. Need to build bigger in San Antonio.
“There you go using numbers and data.”
Weekly jobless claims are at a 50 year low. They don’t look at age brackets. Continuing jobless claims are also at 50 year lows even though the country is double the size now.
If you want a job, they are out there. 11 million openings.
This is the type of job market where, even if you just have a high school degree, you will have opportunities open to you that wouldn’t have been pre-pandemic. Go get them.
“Still affordable for first time buyers even in “hot” cities like Nashville and Columbus.”
Who, other than only the most devoted Columbus enthusiasts, would put it and Nashville even remotely in the same sentence?
“Chicago, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and San Antonio are all still “affordable” for starter homes. ”
Same comment. It’s a credibility killer to group Chicago with those.
“Nope. Nothing like 2006. Strong lending standards. Buyers not stretched. Most qualified home buyers since the 1990s.”
If buyers arent stretching, why is the average price up 18% in the last year (Jan-Jan)? Why didnt these buys just buy a nicer home that cost 18% more.
If housing is up 18% and real wages are negative, what is filling the gap? Magic money tree? Boxed wine?
“Who, other than only the most devoted Columbus enthusiasts, would put it and Nashville even remotely in the same sentence?”
Gosh anonny, the WSJ?
And this article was written BEFORE the pandemic. In 2019. Columbus has been one of the hottest housing markets for several years. And now that Intel announced they’re putting the new semiconductor factory in the suburbs, it’s even more so.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-buy-columbus-11573145397
Susan McManus and Ashley Lawson were confident they would get a great deal on a big home when they decided to relocate back to the Midwest after five years in Southern California.
It didn’t quite happen that way.
After a year of searching in Columbus, Ohio, they upped their target price by $500,000. Still, it was another 17 months before the couple closed on a four-bedroom, five-bathroom home in the historical German Village neighborhood—for $1.5 million. To win their home, they had to put in an offer the day the property went on the market.
“If buyers arent stretching, why is the average price up 18% in the last year (Jan-Jan)? Why didnt these buys just buy a nicer home that cost 18% more.”
There aren’t any homes JohnnyU. Record low inventory. First time home buyers are on waitlists around the country hoping to buy something new because there aren’t any existing homes for sale.
These are the most qualified home buyers in decades. They have down payments. Home builders have been talking about record FICO scores and down payments among their buyers.
Watch cancellation rates over the next few quarters to see how many are now going to fall out of qualification due to rising rates. Thanks to 2009 bank regulations, they won’t allow the buyers to stretch income anymore. More strict buyer to income ratios.
But, again, some buyers will move down to a cheaper product. Home builders have said they won’t spend as much in the design studio to keep the monthly payment “affordable.” Many spend up to $100k in the design studio. Bye-bye waterfall edge on the island? No more automatic window shades? I wonder what they will get rid of.
Also Redfin reported last week that they are seeing a slowing in home searches on their site, traffic at open houses and contacts to their agents.
We know mortgage applications have slowed.
Higher rates WILL slow the housing market. But it is so hot in so many markets that it needs to cool. There are mini-bubbles forming. It’s not healthy for the economy. Best thing that could happen in 2022 is rising mortgage rates that brings some sanity back to the housing market.
“the new semiconductor factory in the suburbs”
Well, hey, now, that’s another story altogether. I mean, it’s not even fair. How are world class cities and coastal and mountain towns supposed to compete with a new suburban semiconductor factory?
“There aren’t any homes JohnnyU. Record low inventory. First time home buyers are on waitlists around the country hoping to buy something new because there aren’t any existing homes for sale.”
That explains why prices are up, not how this isnt stretching budgets.
Now quit moving the goalposts
“Well, hey, now, that’s another story altogether. I mean, it’s not even fair. How are world class cities and coastal and mountain towns supposed to compete with a new suburban semiconductor factory?”
Can you really put a price on being near tOSU?
“Well, hey, now, that’s another story altogether. I mean, it’s not even fair. How are world class cities and coastal and mountain towns supposed to compete with a new suburban semiconductor factory?”
Again, what was a wonderful city for you 20 years ago, isn’t for the next generation. The “hot” cities are those like Columbus, Madison Wisconsin, Greenville, Charlotte, Winston-Salem. A quick google search revealed that Columbus had the 5th hottest housing market heading into 2022.
Lots of jobs. Cool downtown with shopping/restaurants/major university. Airport has really improved. One of America’s fastest growing cities, but I always call BS on that stat because, like San Antonio, it’s also one of those big sprawling cities so some of the “city” should really be the suburbs (same with San Antonio and Houston.)
Things change anonny. Affordability is in. The thing I admire about GenZ is that they are very practical. They won’t take out big school loans. They won’t move to expensive cities. They are better with money than older Millennials. Start saving into 401ks right out of college. Taking advantage of all those influencer type jobs to have nice side hustles that earn them good money.
GenZ is going to save us all.
“Things change anonny. Affordability is in.”
I live in a big university town, where a large portion of the college kids stick around for at least a couple years post-graduation. I’m always working with a steady stream of associates in their 20s (mainly in Den and Chicago, but also in Miami, NY, LA, Atlanta, and Dallas). Hell, I’ve spent hundreds of hours scrolling TikTok since the pandemic started, and my FYP has lots of 20-30 something content for whatever reason. I’ve got tickets to see Jawbreaker on Thursday AND Friday this week (seemed like a great idea a month ago or so when the tour was announced, but I’ll admit that I’m now questioning how I’m supposed to stay up/out that late). As explained previously, I might be solidly gen x age-wise, but I’m a millennial career and homeownership wise. Somehow, despite all of this, I’ve been completely out of the loop as to all of the move-to-where-they’re-building-new-factories! hype.
“Can you really put a price on being near tOSU?”
Big universities bring a lot of restaurants, jobs, cultural amenities like Broadway shows, dance, symphonies, concerts. Having a major research like OSU is a HUGE driver.
“That explains why prices are up, not how this isnt stretching budgets.”
If you don’t qualify now that prices are up 18%, you don’t buy. Yes, it explains why we aren’t seeing any slowing in the data. There is record low inventory. More buyers than homes. If those who no longer qualify drop out, the market doesn’t even notice. Doesn’t even show up in any stats.
“Somehow, despite all of this, I’ve been completely out of the loop as to all of the move-to-where-they’re-building-new-factories! hype.”
This is all they are talking about in Columbus.
It is no different than the Tesla factory going in near Austin. That’s considered to be a driver for the Austin housing market as well. Going to keep it as tight as ever. These are thousands of high paying jobs.
Also see Huntsville Alabama, which is red hot due to space/defense jobs that are there.
Also, JohnnyU, budgets only “stretched” in expensive coastal markets. Everywhere else, the buyers trade down.
In Chicago, they buy the townhouse instead of the single family home. They buy 3 bedrooms instead of 4. They change suburbs and look in one that is cheaper. In some metro areas, no choice to do this as even the townhouses are $800,000. Many middle class and working class buyers will be priced out. But lots of them were probably already priced out of, say, San Diego anyway.
but sobriety and intelligence arent your strong suits
Love to spend hours a day insulting the owner of the site on which I’m posting.
Also hilarious that the dig on someone else’s intelligence has a punctuation/spelling error.
Re: job market/employers. My contract with my current client is up at the end of the month and I just negotiated a ridiculously high rate for renewing.
“In Chicago, they buy the townhouse instead of the single family home. They buy 3 bedrooms instead of 4. They change suburbs and look in one that is cheaper. In some metro areas, no choice to do this as even the townhouses are $800,000. Many middle class and working class buyers will be priced out. But lots of them were probably already priced out of, say, San Diego anyway.”
Without any data to support your claims, what you say is dubious at best. Not sure how buying down at the same price point is going to contribute to an 18% rise in housing prices, but then again I haven been drinking all day
I fail to see how the average sales price going up 18% would not stretch buyers, unless you are going to make a bunch of BS claims about how much more money buyers have this year Vs last (Or what ever tortured logic you wish to employ)
WTF does San Deigo have to do with anything, other than as a diversion
“It’s a credibility killer to group Chicago with those.”
Looked at another way, it’s expressing *very* bearish sentiment for Chicago.
“When will the bears stop comparing Chicago to Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, cities that last belonged in the same breath during the first Cleveland administration?”
No – unemployment isn’t half the picture. It’s 100% of the picture. At least according to many on the right back when unemployment was at record lows under Trump. It was the first thing they mentioned whenever anyone tried to criticize the man’s stewardship.
Now that Biden is in office, the same people say not to bother looking at employment.
BTW, 431,000 in monthly jobs growth isn’t a “miss.” It just didn’t reach Wall Street’s expectations. It’s still double the average monthly jobs growth under Trump!
“This is all they are talking about in Columbus.”
Intel Manufacturing Tech job average = $55k
Intel Manufacturing Engineer job average = $85k
Typical new house being built in New Albany (which annexed the land Intel is building on) = $500k. (example: https://www.redfin.com/OH/NEW-ALBANY/6314-CALLAWAY-SQ-E-43054/home/146055168)
Yes, it will bring a couple hundred higher paying jobs, and it beats the hell out of the logistics jobs around Groveport/Lockbourne, but c’mon.
ps: Those intel manufacturing techs in idaho and oregon and arizona–can they leave for another job and get a $50k raise? Where?
“No – unemployment isn’t half the picture. It’s 100% of the picture. At least according to many on the right back when unemployment was at record lows under Trump. It was the first thing they mentioned whenever anyone tried to criticize the man’s stewardship.
Now that Biden is in office, the same people say not to bother looking at employment.”
So full employment at $1.00/hr is a good thing?
“BTW, 431,000 in monthly jobs growth isn’t a “miss.” It just didn’t reach Wall Street’s expectations. It’s still double the average monthly jobs growth under Trump!”
This is the simplistic midwit discussion that brings me back to CC, LOL
most of the job growth is in the low paying hospitality sector as most places are finally “back to normal” without the idiotic vaccine mandates
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t17.htm
““This is all they are talking about in Columbus.”
Intel Manufacturing Tech job average = $55k
Intel Manufacturing Engineer job average = $85k
Typical new house being built in New Albany (which annexed the land Intel is building on) = $500k. (example: https://www.redfin.com/OH/NEW-ALBANY/6314-CALLAWAY-SQ-E-43054/home/146055168)
Yes, it will bring a couple hundred higher paying jobs, and it beats the hell out of the logistics jobs around Groveport/Lockbourne, but c’mon.”
yeah and even if you are working at a 100k plus white color private sector job in Columbus say for Chase bank that employs 20k headcount then your next two options Nationwide (closely related at insurance) and Honda each employ half the numbers that Chase bank does. There are simply not as many roles to walk across the street to.
“most of the job growth is in the low paying hospitality sector as most places are finally “back to normal” without the idiotic vaccine mandates”
Hospitality is really lagging actually. They are more than a million jobs below their pre-pandemic highs. Those jobs aren’t coming back. Hotels have figured out they don’t need to offer daily cleaning because airbnbs don’t. They save a lot of money and cut the staff way back by cutting that out.
“Yes, it will bring a couple hundred higher paying jobs, and it beats the hell out of the logistics jobs around Groveport/Lockbourne, but c’mon.”
Excuse me? These are solid middle class jobs. You’re just being an asshole anon(tfo). This is more than teachers get paid.
Yeah- it’s a big deal for Columbus. Lots of families will need somewhere to live.
“Looked at another way, it’s expressing *very* bearish sentiment for Chicago.”
Nope. Just looking at larger, affordable cities. 3 out of the 4 have big city density (sorry San Antonio, but you don’t.)
Makes sense to put them in the same category. If you love cities, these are the ones you should be looking.
“Without any data to support your claims, what you say is dubious at best. Not sure how buying down at the same price point is going to contribute to an 18% rise in housing prices, but then again I haven been drinking all day”
Various of the homebuilders said this very thing on their recent conference calls. If you don’t believe me, go listen to them and see.
They’ve been through rising rate environment as recently as 4 years ago. What happened in 2018 when rates were almost 5%? For new home buyers, they traded down. Bought smaller homes that cost less. They added less in the design studio.
This is the most qualified home buyers in the last 25 to 30 years. They are qualifying for loans pretty easily, as we’ve had record sales in Chicago for several months in a row. But with rates rising, some won’t qualify for the $400,000 property anymore. They will either have to 1) bring a larger downpayment or 2) trade down to something cheaper.
Like I said, they may have to buy a townhouse instead of a SFH if they want to stay in a certain neighborhood.
Also, it seems like you’re assuming that ALL buyers are first time homebuyers JohnnyU. There are plenty of older Millennials who have owned for 10+ years. They have equity. Pretty easy to qualify for that next house when you’re rolling over the big equity into the next property.
Current homeowners have all-time highs in equity as the prices have risen.
Those Baby Boomer homeowners are rich. They should be able to keep the housing market afloat for many years buying their retirement dream homes or condos in downtown Chicago.
“I fail to see how the average sales price going up 18% would not stretch buyers, unless you are going to make a bunch of BS claims about how much more money buyers have this year Vs last (Or what ever tortured logic you wish to employ)”
It’s not happening. Lots of people have stock portfolios and bitcoin which are doing quite well. That’s why we’re seeing 50 offers on a single $500,000 house in Phoenix. Even if 25 of them get priced out, it won’t matter to the market.
When will 45 of them get priced out?
We don’t know. Will have to wait and see. Hard to believe it will be soon with this hot job market and record low inventory.
Let’s ask Gary.
Gary, are you seeing any slowing in Raleigh demand now that rates are near 5%? Less people at open houses? Fewer offers?
There are probably lots of retiree buyers who are waltzing into that market with all cash from selling their northern climate house.
“Nope. Just looking at larger, affordable cities. 3 out of the 4 have big city density”
Persons/Mi^2
Chicago – 11,883
Pittsburgh – 5,484
Columbus – 3,960
Cincinnati – 3,834
San Antonio – 3,238
I know its just numbers
“Various of the homebuilders said this very thing on their recent conference calls. If you don’t believe me, go listen to them and see.”
So they’re going to sell a cheaper product and cause average price to rise? Interesting math
“They’ve been through rising rate environment as recently as 4 years ago. What happened in 2018 when rates were almost 5%? For new home buyers, they traded down. Bought smaller homes that cost less. They added less in the design studio.”
“Also, it seems like you’re assuming that ALL buyers are first time homebuyers JohnnyU. There are plenty of older Millennials who have owned for 10+ years. They have equity. Pretty easy to qualify for that next house when you’re rolling over the big equity into the next property.”
Now where would I have gotten that idea?
Yeah the 2010 2/2 are selling for a real premium…
Was the Fed signaling another 4-6 hikes?
“So they’re going to sell a cheaper product and cause average price to rise? Interesting math”
They haven’t had to sell any cheaper product JohnnyU, as you know. The market is simply too hot nationwide. They are still withholding properties and allocating to maximize pricing. Just 2 weeks ago, they weren’t seeing any slowdown in sales, foot traffic, website traffic or a surge in cancellations.
But they were asked on their calls what will happen if they see the slowing, as they did in 2018. And they answered they would do the same thing now they did then. They can rotate to smaller product. They shrink the average home down from 1900 square feet to 1600 square feet, for instance. Others will spend less in the design studio. Instead of real hardwood floors, they will put in vinyl. Maybe they don’t go for the upgraded appliances. Cheaper countertops are chosen.
Public home builders build in many states. Their “average price” is very dependent on the specific markets. California much higher than Texas, for example.
“Yeah the 2010 2/2 are selling for a real premium…”
Yeah- actually, they are. If you bought during the bust, you are golden. Even those basic 2/2s. Odds are you bought a foreclosure from 2010 to 2012. Heck, I blogged about hundreds of those on this very site.
Most people buying then got some great deals.
Take, for example, this 2/2 loft in the popular Clocktower building in Bucktown.
Here’s its sales history:
Sold March 2006: $327,500
Tried to sell it from 2010 into 2011
Sold February 2012: $256,500
Sold June 2016 for $390,000
Listed in March 2022 for $465,000
Seems to me the 2012 buyer, if they had stayed in the property the last 10 years, would have a nice profit even with some of the upgrades made to the unit. Even the 2016 buyer has equity. But the 2012 is sitting pretty AND has paid down the loan for 10 years.
Plenty of cash to take to the next property if they are staying in Chicago or Chicagoland area.
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2300-W-Wabansia-Ave-60647/unit-233/home/13357181
Yep, as I said Chicago, Pittsburgh and Philly are dense. San Antonio is not. Big city, urban amenities in those three. I don’t see how its bearish for Chicago to be compared to other affordable dense cities.
It sounds like I’m the type of person Sabrina mentioned. I owned a 2/2 condo for 10 years and sold for $140,000 more than I paid. I was able to put 20% on the new place. I was just lucky to buy and sell at the right time. I was able to get a much nicer house than I would have if I had bought in 2006, when condos in my building were going for more than my sale price. I put almost no work into my unit beyond the basics and I still immediately received an offer.
Lots of others like me it seems. I went to 2 open houses this weekend to get ideas for upgrades I want to make to my house. Both were very busy and already had multiple offers. People seem frantic to buy, which is concerning. It seemed much more frantic than when I was looking last summer and fall.
“ Take, for example, this 2/2 loft in the popular Clocktower building in Bucktown.
Here’s its sales history:
Sold March 2006: $327,500
Tried to sell it from 2010 into 2011
Sold February 2012: $256,500
Sold June 2016 for $390,000
Listed in March 2022 for $465,000
Seems to me the 2012 buyer, if they had stayed in the property the last 10 years, would have a nice profit even with some of the upgrades made to the unit. Even the 2016 buyer has equity. But the 2012 is sitting pretty AND has paid down the loan for 10 years.”
I think even you’d have to admit that the buyer in 12 is an extreme outlier
The 16 buyer has a negative Real return
“Yep, as I said Chicago, Pittsburgh and Philly are dense. San Antonio is not. Big city, urban amenities in those three. I don’t see how its bearish for Chicago to be compared to other affordable dense cities.”
You never mentioned Philly in this thread. Nice Gaslighting
Even if you did, Philly = Chicago, Pittsburg is more similar to SA.
“Excuse me? These are solid middle class jobs. You’re just being an asshole anon(tfo). This is more than teachers get paid.”
Why aren’t the teachers all leaving for those $50k raises that you imply that everyone can get?
” Clocktower building in Bucktown.”
———————————————-
Wabansia is not in Bucktown. It’s Wicker Park.
“I don’t see how its bearish for Chicago to be compared to other affordable dense cities.”
It’s not uncommon to make the mistake (I’ve made it) of comparing Chicago to NYC upon living in or even visiting the two for the first time. Very large, dense cities with epic skylines and famous buildings, lots of distinct neighborhoods (old or new, ethnic/racial or not, etc.), subways throughout the city and heavy rail lines in from sprawling suburban regions, hailing cabs (at least pre-pandemic), multiple sports teams and airports, global hubs in law, finance, business, architecture, and advertising, tons of world class arts offerings, major universities, legendary bands, performers, writers and other artists, significant historical places in the settling and expansion of the American experiment, etc., etc. – lots of things in common that no other cities in the country really have at comparable levels. So the comparison is almost irresistible to make, and in doing so, a big (the biggest?) takeaway tends to be…affordability. Living in Chicago is more affordable than NYC. That’s it. That’s the grouping. I could see “Cincinnati’s mom” trying to put the two in the same group, but that’s about it. For heaven’s sake. I’ve been in places around the planet when I lived in Chicago, and the locals in those places, or people also visiting from elsewhere around the planet, consistently know about, and are fond of, various Chicago things. From walking up a mountain and having a Tanzanian porter ask me about the “Blues Brothers” and Jordan, to hearing a teenager from Texas on a chairlift recite “Ferris Bueller’s” lines, I just don’t think I would have sparked similar reactions had I told those folks I was from Cincinnati or Pittsburg or whatever. Nobody is having pizza from Ohio FedExed to anywhere. Come on.
“They haven’t had to sell any cheaper product JohnnyU, as you know. The market is simply too hot nationwide. They are still withholding properties and allocating to maximize pricing. Just 2 weeks ago, they weren’t seeing any slowdown in sales, foot traffic, website traffic or a surge in cancellations.”
Ergo people are stretching their budget for housing.
For your pet theory to be true, there would need to be a gap in purchases somewhere in the chain (IMO – in the +$1MM range). Where is it?
“It’s not uncommon to make the mistake (I’ve made it) of comparing Chicago to NYC”
Chicago can be reasonably compared in some dimensions or another to:
NYC
LA
DC, SF, Boston, Dallas, Philly, Houston
and to a lesser extent, ATL, MIA and Detroit
That doesn’t mean that everyplace else is shit anymore than saying that NYC v. Chicago isn’t really a reasonable comparison (as Nonny implies: it just isn’t). The 5 boroughs are almost the population of the entire Chicago region, in about 1/3 more land area than just the city of Chicago. NYC is bananas.
“These are solid middle class jobs.”
“This is all they are talking about in Columbus.”
Ergo, Columbus is a place to have a solid middle class job.
If we credit that Columbus is ‘hot’ with the college-educated Millennial set…
College-educated Millennials are looking for… what? $25/hr jobs with decent benefits, in midwest suburbs where two of those jobs allows you to keep your commute down to ~30 minutes?
No wonder Millennials are depressed about their prospects.
“Pittsburg is more similar to SA”
See, this in unfair in the other direction. SA is less dense than Naperville–it’s basically a huge suburb. SA is the least dense US city over 1m, 10% less dense than PHX. The peer group is PHX, Austin, SA, Charlotte, Indy, Jax.
Pitt is in the density group of San Jose, PDX, cities of Broward County, FL–places that mostly feel like a city in the US, but not a capital C City. Hell, LA has a pop density over 8,000/sm, how do we reasonably compare places well less dense than LA to place considerably more dense?
“See, this in unfair in the other direction. SA is less dense than Naperville–it’s basically a huge suburb. SA is the least dense US city over 1m, 10% less dense than PHX. The peer group is PHX, Austin, SA, Charlotte, Indy, Jax.”
Naperville’s density by zip code is
565 – 3,177.80
564 – 1,927
563 – 1,943.36
540 – 3,367.91
SA has 8 zip codes over 5k/Mi^2 (Since 5k/mi^2 seems to be the arbitrary break point for density).
On Pittsburg, the 3 zip codes with a density over 10k/Mi^2 have median HH incomes of $32.5k, $22.9k & $18.5k – AKA warehousing the poors.
Is it more dense than SA, yes. Is it closer to SA than Chicago – yes
Hotels have figured out they don’t need to offer daily cleaning because airbnbs don’t. They save a lot of money and cut the staff way back by cutting that out.
Ugh, it’s so annoying how they are framing it: “for your comfort, we want your stay to be as undisturbed as possible, so we will only clean your room upon request” Yeah, my comfort is driving this. (I personally don’t mind, because I don’t really need the room cleaned every day, but don’t try to convince me this is anything other than a cost-saving move.)
It’s similar to the decision to only give you fresh towels upon request and trying to pass if off as “environmentally conscious”
anon(tfo), you have clearly never lived in a part of the country where the middle class struggles. You should be able to live the American Dream as a middle class person. Vast majority of Americans actually ARE middle class. They make under $100k. A starting salary of $50k is normal in most parts of the country. How much do you think a starting teacher makes? Or a librarian? Or a social worker? Or a vet? A physical or speech therapist? A typical hairdresser?
Yes, even college grads mostly make middle class salaries out of school, and many, beyond.
Wages have gone up so some of those jobs are now paying more, but not all of them.
Our economy revolves around solid middle class jobs. This is why Chicago rocks. We have lots of manufacturing, warehouse, transportation jobs. Many/most are middle class jobs. Heck, that Ford plant on the south side is awesome for the city. Great jobs.
Yes, the Intel factory is going to drive that housing market and is a big “get” for Columbus the same way the Tesla factory was for Reno and for Austin.
Look at what that huge Rivian plant is doing for downstate Illinois.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/24/cars/rivian-illinois-town/index.html
“Ergo people are stretching their budget for housing.”
Not with those low rates, they weren’t.
Hence why the home builders keep reporting record “average” price every quarter.
Really, this discussion just confirms to me that you haven’t bought a property in a long time JohnnyU. Since 2009. The lending requirements don’t let you “stretch” anymore. They are very tight on income requirements, your FICO score etc. They check everything. And if you’re self-employed, it’s very difficult to buy at all.
Going forward, the high rates will price out some, including first time buyers which make up a big chunk of the buyer pool. Others will have to reduce the price of the property they are looking at.
Therefore, they will move down in the property. They will buy a cheaper townhouse versus the SFH. They will buy fewer bedrooms. They will switch neighborhoods or towns. Maybe they buy on the bus line instead of off of it. They will have to make sacrifices as rates rise.
We are a monthly payment nation. Buyers will have to change expectations to fit within those monthly parameters now.
In Chicago, this isn’t as difficult. We have a lot of affordable housing. But in LA, for instance, there’s not as many options to move “down.” Some will be priced completely out.
“Why aren’t the teachers all leaving for those $50k raises that you imply that everyone can get?”
We have record number of teachers leaving the profession. It’s terrible out there. And really, who would encourage a 20 year old to go into it? The pay is terrible and now with wage inflation, getting worse, compared to peer jobs.
I thought $130k HHI was UMC?
“Yes, even college grads mostly make middle class salaries out of school, and many, beyond.”
Can’t they just quit and make $50k more a year?
“I think even you’d have to admit that the buyer in 12 is an extreme outlier”
Nope. This was actually the second listing I pulled up in Bucktown to look at to make my point.
Not hard to find 2010-2014 buyers who are ALL doing quite well JohnnyU.
Housing bust was a LONG time ago. Lots of people timed it really well. Just ask HD if he was still on this blog. He also bought in the bust years. I’m sure he is doing well.
“Can’t they just quit and make $50k more a year?”
Just out of school?
No.
7 to 10 years out of school and in one of the hot professions?
Sure.
Now is the time. Don’t miss out. It’s not going to stay this hot for forever. It just feels like it will. The Fed is going to have to raise much more aggressively. They will eventually slow the economy. They have no choice. The housing market is overheating. The job market too. Risks abound. They are going to have to have a spine.
“Not with those low rates, they weren’t.”
Yes, no one is/was going 4-5x income on loans. Millennials are all conservative and sticking w/ 3X. LOL.
“Really, this discussion just confirms to me that you haven’t bought a property in a long time JohnnyU. Since 2009. The lending requirements don’t let you “stretch” anymore. They are very tight on income requirements, your FICO score etc. They check everything. And if you’re self-employed, it’s very difficult to buy at all.”
Bought raw land, K-1, no problems
“you have clearly never lived in a part of the country where the middle class struggles.”
Yes, clearly.
You’re the one saying that:
1. Columbus is hothothot among the college-educated youngsters.
2. “all they are talking about in Columbus” is 2,500 middle-class jobs, which are arriving ~3 years from now.
It doesn’t add up.
“Nope. This was actually the second listing I pulled up in Bucktown to look at to make my point.
Not hard to find 2010-2014 buyers who are ALL doing quite well JohnnyU.”
First one I opened in Zillow
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/600-N-Kingsbury-St-APT-1803-Chicago-IL-60654/70449291_zpid/
Purchased in 14 – $440k
Sold 4/1/22 – $476
Wow covered closing costs – Sizzle!
RN is littered with these turds
“Just out of school?
No
7 to 10 years out of school and in one of the hot professions?
Sure.”
Ohhhh…I see there’s some criteria now.
“Yes, no one is/was going 4-5x income on loans.”
“The lending requirements don’t let you “stretch” anymore.”
We are an unbelievably shortsighted HMAM nation.
“We have record number of teachers leaving the profession. It’s terrible out there. And really, who would encourage a 20 year old to go into it? The pay is terrible and now with wage inflation, getting worse, compared to peer jobs.”
LMAO
Retire at 55 w/ 50% of salary? Great Medical? Work 9 Mo (Less every holiday + Xmas + Spring break) out of the year?
The horror….
“Look at what that huge Rivian plant is doing for downstate Illinois.”
Yes, it’s great for Bloomington/Normal.
Literally no one compares Bloomington/Normal to Chicago, or even Columbus.
Yet you want us to credit a comparison between Chicago and Columbus, in part by comparing Columbus to Bloomington/Normal?
Really?
“We are an unbelievably shortsighted HMAM nation.”
Yep
But buy now or be priced out for ever or lose your home to foreclosure because wages arent keeping up w/ inflation
Speaking of jobs and workplaces, have any of you returned to the office on any sort of regular schedule? I’m in my second week of Tues/Thurs office attendance. The city/office world is in some sort of alternate dimension, and I can’t see it ever returning to anything resembling pre-pandemic life.
“But buy now or be priced out for ever or lose your home to foreclosure because wages arent keeping up w/ inflation”
Foreclosure???
I don’t understand how higher rates are going to cause foreclosures when those buyers have all locked in at a much lower rate. And these are the most qualified buyers in 30 years.
Forbearance is under 3% right now. Multi-year lows. And homeowners have record equity.
That’s what happens in a strong employment market. People can pay their mortgages, even with a pandemic. It’s been amazing. Shows the strength of this economy. Bob the Bear won’t even dare show his face on this blog right now because he was completely wrong with his “the foreclosure wave is coming” prediction during COVID.
“Literally no one compares Bloomington/Normal to Chicago, or even Columbus.”
I wasn’t comparing anon(tfo). But you mocked the idea that the Intel plant, which will likely have jobs that pay $50k to $100k+ a year, was no big deal and could not be a driver for Columbus’ housing market (it is- just like the Tesla plant has caused housing speculation in that suburb of Austin).
Chicago should have been so lucky to get any of those plants including Rivian. They will employ over 7,000 at peak at the Rivian plant. It’s a gamechanger for Bloomington. It’s not for Chicago which is a bigger, more diverse economy, but we’d love to have 7,000 middle class jobs. Hell yeah.
But your arrogance and classism against the middle class just blinds you as to what makes Chicago a great city. We DO have affordable housing. We probably have the healthiest housing market out of all of America’s major cities and part of that is because while the middle class has been eroded on the north side of the city, it still does exist on the south and west sides as well as in the suburbs.
I tell you, in many coastal cities, I don’t know where you live if you’re middle class.
“RN is littered with these turds”
River North isn’t Bucktown. River North is downtown which has been hammered by too much inventory and then the protests/riots. It’s healing but inventory still has to come down. But we’re getting close to that now.
Look at #802 in that same building. It’s listed for quite a bit more than 2019. Last year it wouldn’t have been. Downtown is healing. As the apartments go up in price, many of these condos will become even more attractive.
There are only 337 properties available in River North. That is nothing. Wow. Very low. But 187 of them are under $500,000. Makes me think that if you have a bigger property with 3-bedrooms or 1600+ square footage, pricing is probably moving up faster than at the lower price point. Very little to choose from.
And if you have one of the lower price points, you’d better update it.
Give the buyers what they want. Millennials and GenZ don’t want your 2002 finishes.
“Yes, no one is/was going 4-5x income on loans. Millennials are all conservative and sticking w/ 3X. LOL.”
Again, it is quite obvious that you haven’t bought a property since the housing boom JohnnyU. Congress tightened lending after the bust. It’s actually really a pain in the butt to get a home mortgage or even to refinance. Yes, they check everything. And they aren’t letting you go 4 to 5x income on loans. They have strict lending standards now where they have to follow income levels. Many self-employed, even those making $200k+, can’t get mortgages.
Hell, I know one couple that had to sell their car and get rid of their auto loan because the lender wasn’t approving the loan with it.
So, yeah, you’re basically clueless JohnnyU. Most of the rest of us have lived through the nightmare of getting a mortgage in recent years. And thank god. That’s why there is less than 3% in forbearance. The tighter standards have worked. Solid lending now. Banks are fine. Most qualified buyers in decades.
Hooray.
“ Hell, I know one couple that had to sell their car and get rid of their auto loan because the lender wasn’t approving the loan with it.”
If you need to sell a vehicle in order to buy a home, you’re stretching.
Thanks for proving my point
“ That’s why there is less than 3% in forbearance.”
Again the Fannie/Freddie program doesn’t expire until August. You ignore anything that doesn’t fit your world view
“ It’s actually really a pain in the butt to get a home mortgage or even to refinance.”
You must be a deadbeat or had been severely underwater for a refi to be a pain
“ Look at #802 in that same building. It’s listed for quite a bit more than 2019. Last year it wouldn’t have been. Downtown is healing. As the apartments go up in price, many of these condos will become even more attractive.”
Upgraded kitchen and on the market for 48 days
Overpriced and definitely not HAWT(tm)
Thanks for proving my point
“ I don’t understand how higher rates are going to cause foreclosures when those buyers have all locked in at a much lower rate. And these are the most qualified buyers in 30 years.”
I said wages & inflation
Coupled with stretching to max out their loan
Do you always need to lie?
Lol – yeah I’m sure all the buyers got 60 days at 3%
“But you mocked the idea that the Intel plant, which will likely have jobs that pay $50k to $100k+ a year, was no big deal and could not be a driver for Columbus’ housing market”
No, you are wrong. What I mocked was your contention that:
1. Columbus is hothothot among the college-educated youngsters.
2. “all they are talking about in Columbus” is 2,500 middle-class jobs, which are arriving ~3 years from now.
I even clarified that a few comments up, but you have to mischaracterize what I wrote.
I found it easy to get my new mortgage. They only looked at my checking account where my employer deposits my pay. They didn’t want to see brokerage accounts or other bank accounts. They called my employer to confirm my employment. My loan amount is 3.5x my income and I had 20% down. My broker asked what I felt comfortable paying each month and then approved me for the amount with which I felt comfortable. I ended up going up a little and that wasn’t a problem. Only tricky part was having to lock in an interest rate late on a Friday because my broker thought the rates were going to jump if we waited. It took 25 days from my offer until closing. Maybe it’s different for first time buyers. I remember needing much more documentation back in 2011.
I agree though, if you have to sell your car to afford to buy a home, then you should be looking at less expensive homes.
“And they aren’t letting you go 4 to 5x income on loans.”
Uh, yeah they were.
“For manually underwritten loans, Fannie Mae’s maximum total debt-to-income (DTI) ratio is 36% of the borrower’s stable monthly income.”
at a 3% rate, and no other debt, 36% of $100k annual income buys you, eg, this place:
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/3631-N-Mozart-St-60618/home/13453454
with an 80% loan. That’s a loan at 4.8x income, and a house at 6x income. Yes, it requires the (unlikely) no other debt requirement, but with a good credit score and some money in the bank, you can go over the 36%.
They also just bumped up the back-end cap from 45% to 50%.
So, same scenario, ($100k HHI, no other debt, 3% mortgage) and satisfying the requirements to go up to 45% (not even 50%!!), this place:
https://www.redfin.com/CA/Northridge/9162-McLennan-Ave-91343/home/5742918
would be ok. That’d would be a loan at 7.6x income and a house at 9.5x income. Which is fucking INSANE.
Yeahyeahyeah, no other debt is highly unlikely, but it wasn’t impossible, by any means, even with the ‘tighter standards’.
“It’s actually really a pain in the butt to get a home mortgage or even to refinance.”
Was trivial to refi last fall. Easiest refi since before ’07, by far.
“And they aren’t letting you go 4 to 5x income on loans.”
Uh, yeah they were.
“For manually underwritten loans, Fannie Mae’s maximum total debt-to-income (DTI) ratio is 36% of the borrower’s stable monthly income.”
at a 3% rate, and no other debt, 36% of $100k annual income buys you, eg, a $600k house in Chicago, with an 80% loan. That’s a loan at 4.8x income, and a house at 6x income. Yes, it requires the (unlikely) no other debt requirement, but with a good credit score and some money in the bank, you can go over the 36%.
They also just bumped up the back-end cap from 45% to 50%.
So, same scenario, ($100k HHI, no other debt, 3% mortgage) and satisfying the requirements to go up to 45% (not even 50%!!), this place, a $950k in LA would be ok (had to leave Chicago to get a higher FNMA loan amount). That’d would be a loan at 7.6x income and a house at 9.5x income. Which is fucking INSANE.
Yeahyeahyeah, no other debt is highly unlikely, but it wasn’t impossible, by any means, even with the ‘tighter standards’.
“Again, it is quite obvious that you haven’t bought a property since the housing boom JohnnyU. Congress tightened lending after the bust. It’s actually really a pain in the butt to get a home mortgage or even to refinance. Yes, they check everything. And they aren’t letting you go 4 to 5x income on loans. They have strict lending standards now where they have to follow income levels. Many self-employed, even those making $200k+, can’t get mortgages.”
If you’re self employed day trading bitcoin, yeah I can see the bank having an issue. Self employed consistently pulling in around $200k, there’s something else blocking the loan (DtI, Liens, Alimony/CS).
If you and your circle of acquaintances think its a PITA to get a loan, it speaks more to your particular state Vs the market
“at a 3% rate, and no other debt, 36% of $100k annual income buys you, eg, a $600k house in Chicago, with an 80% loan. That’s a loan at 4.8x income, and a house at 6x income. Yes, it requires the (unlikely) no other debt requirement, but with a good credit score and some money in the bank, you can go over the 36%.
They also just bumped up the back-end cap from 45% to 50%.
So, same scenario, ($100k HHI, no other debt, 3% mortgage) and satisfying the requirements to go up to 45% (not even 50%!!), this place, a $950k in LA would be ok (had to leave Chicago to get a higher FNMA loan amount). That’d would be a loan at 7.6x income and a house at 9.5x income. Which is fucking INSANE.”
But, but, but these are the tightest lending standards ever!!!
Math is hard
“at a 3% rate, and no other debt, 36% of $100k annual income buys you, eg, a $600k house in Chicago, with an 80% loan.”
I have no other debt, so maybe that’s why it was so simple. I was happy to find a broker and agent who didn’t try to push me to go up past where I felt comfortable. Even with a mortgage of 3.5x income and no other debt, I still sometimes think that I spent too much. I end up saving a lot of money each month because taxes will inevitably go up, something around the house will need to be repaired, my car will need to be replaced, dog will need surgery, etc. If spending 50% of pretax income on housing, how does one afford to fix the house even when simple things go wrong?