Get Lake and City Views from 2 Balconies: A 2/2 at 41 E 8th in the South Loop
This corner 2-bedroom on the 29th floor of 41 E. 8th Street in the South Loop came on the market in March 2022.
Built in 2002, 41 E 8th has 220 units and an attached garage.
The building has door staff and an exercise room.
This unit is a northeast corner unit with 2 walls of windows and hardwood floors in the main living/dining/kitchen areas and, according to the listing, new engineered hardwood floors in the bedrooms.
The older 2013 listing says this is the largest 2-bedroom floor plan in the building at 1544 square feet.
It has a separate dining room, which has an east facing balcony with views of the Lake and park.
The second balcony is off the living room, and faces north with city views including of the Willis Tower.
The kitchen has white cabinets, quartz counter tops, a pantry and stainless steel appliances and is open to the living room.
The primary bedroom is en suite with a dual sink vanity, a tub and a walk-in-shower and also has a walk-in-closet.
The second bedroom faces north, with city views and has millwork.
The unit has a rare separate laundry room with side-by-side washer/dryer and extra storage.
It has the other features buyers look for including central air and 1 car deeded garage parking which is included.
The listing says that the building is “investor friendly” with no rental cap and is in the South Loop elementary school district.
This building is near the shops and restaurants of Printers Row, Michigan Avenue and Roosevelt Road and is close to both Millennial and Grant Park.
Listed at $525,000, is this a deal for the square footage and views?
Scott Curcio at Baird & Warner has the listing. See the pictures and floor plan here.
Unit #2901: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1544 square feet
- Sold in May 2003 for $507,500
- Sold in November 2013 for $462,000
- Currently listed at $525,000 (includes garage parking)
- Assessments of $1050 a month (includes heat, a/c, gas, doorman, cable, Internet, exercise room, exterior maintenance, snow removal, scavenger)
- Taxes of $11,498
- Central Air
- Washer/dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 18×12
- Bedroom #2: 15×10
- Living room: 18×17
- Dining room: 13×11
- Kitchen: 12×9
- Laundry room: 11×6
- Foyer: 10×6
- Walk-in-closet: 8×6
- Balcony: 12×5
- Balcony #2: 13×5
Nice space and good views. Listed SF is pretty accurate, though they’re including the balconies. Price seems reasonable relative to what 2401 sold for.
With that being said, $100k down & $4300/mo really should have one re-evaluating their life choices
“Investor Friendly with no rental cap”
So…this doesn’t seem like a $3 psf building, does it?
[checking]
There aren’t any 2bds currently listed for rent, but the 2 1bds are both asking around $2.25 psf. +$200/mo for parking. So this place would be maybe $3,750 to rent. $1,700 gross rent after HOA and taxes, sub 4% at ask, before considering insurance, maintenance, vacancy.
As an investment property for a mini-land-baron, this place is worth something less than $400k. As a o-o, I’d say it’s a nonstarter–if you are ok being in a rental building, just rent.
Really nice floor plan. Assessment is definitely on a higher side, but it least it will help protect against potential special assessments in the future. Don’t see much appreciation at this price point. Assessment and property tax will increase 3-5 % a year at the very least, taking a bite out of any potential price appreciation.
ps, been a loooong time since this building was on the cc–#3301, a top floor unit, was asking $264,900 with 2 parking spaces. Closed for $315k.
“Assessment and property tax will increase 3-5 % a year at the very least, taking a bite out of any potential price appreciation.”
And what are rents doing Aleks?
A 2/2 rental on Michigan avenue which is just 1065 square feet is renting for $4500-$6000 a month.
At NEMA, they have a 1391 square foot 3/2 that is renting for $7300 a month.
Lol.
“With that being said, $100k down & $4300/mo really should have one re-evaluating their life choices”
Versus what?
So many people on this blog live in the suburbs or out of state and have no idea what is going on in Chicago’s rental market in 2022. The buildings are booked up. Rents are rising again. If you want to live in one of America’s greatest cities in a high rise downtown with stainless steel appliances, you will pay up.
Why is paying for this 2 bedroom a stupid choice (as JohnnyU alludes to) when 3-bedrooms with the same square footage, or less, than this unit are renting from $6,000 to $12,000 a month in NEMA down the street?
Who is “stupid”?
The Chicago market has changed. Larger 2/2s are no longer $400,000. They are $500,000 to $600,000.
The housing market is hot. The inventory is at record low.
This is the only 2/2 for sale in this building, by the way. If you want to live there, this is your choice.
This building, however, happens to be one of the ugliest in the South Loop.
As far as I can tell, the most any unit in this tier received for rent was Unit 2001 $3150 4/2019 which looks like it included the parking…
“Larger 2/2s are no longer $400,000. They are $500,000 to $600,000.”
If this had merely kept up with inflation since 2003, it would be $775k.
And, as you often note, you need to spend money to keep the place up to date to be able to sell at ‘market’ price–and that’s true whether the market is hot, cold, in-between.
And this building is basically an apartment building w/ distributed ownership. So even if you chose to live in the unit, you’re really just paying yourself the equivalent rent–which, at $525k, is upside down.
$450k is the approximate break-even, and you’re buying a long position on the building for $90k, hitching yourself to the other owner-landlords.
Overpriced and an ugly building. I’d rather have had this townhome in the terraces. https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/801-S-Plymouth-Ct-60605/unit-S/home/14091702
“Versus what?”
Making a sound financial decision
“So many people on this blog live in the suburbs or out of state and have no idea what is going on in Chicago’s rental market in 2022. The buildings are booked up. Rents are rising again. If you want to live in one of America’s greatest cities in a high rise downtown with stainless steel appliances, you will pay up.”
Rents are rising, sure but not at where it makes sense to purchase a middling 2/2 at a premium. Again, you you believed 1/2 the crap you type, you’d buy this.
“Why is paying for this 2 bedroom a stupid choice (as JohnnyU alludes to) when 3-bedrooms with the same square footage, or less, than this unit are renting from $6,000 to $12,000 a month in NEMA down the street?”
People renting at NEMA aren’t cross shopping this place. Its like a guy that wants a Ford GT isn’t cross shopping a Dodge Neon
“Who is “stupid”?”
If the shoe fits…
“The Chicago market has changed. Larger 2/2s are no longer $400,000. They are $500,000 to $600,000.”
Again, if someone is going to live here for 10-30 years fine. But 2/2 buyers typically are looking to upgrade in <5 years
"The housing market is hot. The inventory is at record low."
So what? Does it make sense to make a poor financial decision for some nebulous reason?
"This is the only 2/2 for sale in this building, by the way. If you want to live there, this is your choice."
It is, and for most its a really poor one
Like I said, Shills gonna shill.
“And this building is basically an apartment building w/ distributed ownership. So even if you chose to live in the unit, you’re really just paying yourself the equivalent rent–which, at $525k, is upside down.
$450k is the approximate break-even, and you’re buying a long position on the building for $90k, hitching yourself to the other owner-landlords.”
^ This
“Overpriced and an ugly building. I’d rather have had this townhome in the terraces. https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/801-S-Plymouth-Ct-60605/unit-S/home/14091702”
I’m really surprised this place went for only $494,000. Seems like a really nice place in a nice area for that price. I didn’t see any townhouses as nice at this place for this price when I was looking. Only issue I see is that it doesn’t have a coat closet near the front door.
Investor friendly? Wasn’t friendly to the owner who bought it nearly 20 years ago. Dude is losing big time.
hey I am one of the peanut gallery tossing milk duds at the screen but………
Unit has both lake and city views (so we don’t have to point out Sabrina logic bombs)
well taken photos (no crap on counter tops and plenty of photos)
accurate sq ft (I believe JohnnyU) and AND
floor plan – wooohoo.
going to be some back office accounting payroll person at CME picking this us
“Wasn’t friendly to the owner who bought it nearly 20 years ago.”
During the housing bubble? Really Stacy?
The 2003 owner no longer owns it.
“Rents are rising, sure but not at where it makes sense to purchase a middling 2/2 at a premium. Again, you you believed 1/2 the crap you type, you’d buy this.”
Based on your strategy no one would EVER buy a home ever. Because in most places the costs far outweigh what you get out of it once you replace the roof, the air conditioner, the driveway, the windows, put on that new deck, redo the kitchen every 10 years and the baths every 15. It’s a money pit. All real estate is.
Why EVER buy?
But rents are running hot. And could for years. Who knows once inflation takes hold.
The market is TIGHT. Economics in play now. Gonna be tight for years.
Once again, Gary is posting the actual data about for sale homes and Crain’s will soon post what is happening with apartments in 2022. They will both show records in occupancy and prices and record low inventory/high absorption.
But don’t let the facts get in the way while you all wish for doom and gloom that doesn’t exist.
Lol.
That townhome doesn’t have ANY views Stephen.
You either want to see downtown Chicago in all its glory every night and watch the sunrise over the Lake, or you don’t.
Some people don’t care about views. But for others, it’s all they want.
“If this had merely kept up with inflation since 2003, it would be $775k.”
Gosh anon(tfo), we had a housing bubble and huge bust where over 40% of the properties on the market were in foreclosure.
What do you think that’s going to do to prices?
Gee…let me think about it…
I’m surprised no one mentioned the kitchen rehab in this unit. So disappointing to see that the chatterati really isn’t paying any attention.
“Like I said, Shills gonna shill.”
How can someone be a “shill” during what is arguably the hottest real estate market in Chicago in 15 years?
Lol.
Here’s the definition: an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.
How am I the accomplice of a “swindler” or a “hawker” when sales are at multi-decades highs??? Who is the swindler? The sellers of these properties?
And now I’m acting like an enthusiastic customer? When have I ever done that? Saying the housing market is hot is not the same thing as “I’m buying up as much real estate as possible and you should be too.” Lol. My kids are all renting. They are too young and unfocused to buy anything. You should expect to live in a home for at least 5 years but hopefully 10.
The market is red hot. That’s the facts. You can gaslight it all you want JohhnyU but you just look foolish.
“During the housing bubble? Really “
May 2003 – C/S 130.5
Mar 2007 – C/S 171
Nowhere near bubble pricing
“ Based on your strategy no one would EVER buy a home ever. Because in most places the costs far outweigh what you get out of it once you replace the roof, the air conditioner, the driveway, the windows, put on that new deck, redo the kitchen every 10 years and the baths every 15. It’s a money pit. All real estate is.”
Not what I said, but keep making things up. It’s sad to see old people lose their minds
Replacing the kitchen & Baths that often is a personal choice. Albeit a poor financial one
The rest might have to be replaced during ownership
“ The market is TIGHT. Economics in play now. Gonna be tight for years.”
All except Supply V Demand, Right?
“ But don’t let the facts get in the way while you all wish for doom and gloom that doesn’t exist.”
Shilling isn’t factual
“My kids are all renting. They are too young and unfocused to buy anything. You should expect to live in a home for at least 5 years but hopefully 10.”
I get the concerns re: transaction costs and needing to spend enough time in a place before selling, but at what age will your kids buy their first place? If they wait until, say, 30 to buy their first place, they’ll then be 40 before buying their second and, presumbably, long-term/family home? Only one starter home?
We’re in our third place we’ve owned, and we really needed the first two (they weren’t huge jackpots, just like $30k and $60k after costs, but we needed every penny). The upside from selling our ELP condo (after two years) enabled our purchase in Denver, then the sale of that house (after just under two years) enabled the purchase of our current place. Had we stayed in either of the first two places longer (especially the second one), we would have sold those at higher prices, but the flipside of that is that we may not have been able to buy our current place (it was the cheapest house in our neighborhood and among the cheapest house in all of Boulder when we purchased; we would not have been able to buy it starting about a year after we did so).
It really is going to be hard for younger folks to buy a long-term/family home in a super desirable area. It won’t be until the early 2030s until a meaningful portion of boomers have sold and freed up inventory in super desirable areas, and even with that, it won’t be enough and their pricing will likely be too high (the older boomer sellers of our current home could have never imagined selling for what they did, let alone what they’d have gotten had they waited a few years). Up until now, a big aspect of being an UMC family was to be able to get one’s kids through college without the kids having debt, whereas richer families would do that AND give the kids a huge sum of money to buy not only their starter home, but their long-term/family home in a super desirable area. Going forward, I think UMC parents are going to need to stretch and give their 30+ year old kids a big chunk of money to subsidize their purchases. Many of us are going to be working until we die (and probably with reverse mortgages).
Sabrina – You do understand that every other house in every other city has doubled in value since 2003, right? This housing bubble plateau is only happening in Chicago. It isn’t normal for prices to be flat for 20 years.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/csushpinsa
Chicago is not investor friendly. Go check out an crap city like Boise. Terrible terrible low quality condos are going for $500/sqft or even more.
Then you have your hot markets like in Florida where prices are going up 5%/month.
“You do understand that every other house in every other city has doubled in value since 2003, right”
“Go check out an crap city like Boise.”
No one cares. real estate is local. you bring this up in every thread. if someone ONLY cared about their house doubling in price then they would have moved. did you take advantage of the huge returns some cities experienced over the past 10 years. probably not.
“No one cares. real estate is local.”
Yep. Thank you marco. It’s so tiring. Why is she posting on a Chicago blog while living in the paradise of Florida? What does she care? I guess it’s boring as hell down south and there’s nothing better to do but dream of beautiful Midwest real estate.
“Then you have your hot markets like in Florida where prices are going up 5%/month.”
Yeah- this is normal.
Good luck Floridians.
Bubble 1920-26
Bubble 2003-2008
Bubble 2020- ???
Always ends well.
“If they wait until, say, 30 to buy their first place, they’ll then be 40 before buying their second and, presumbably, long-term/family home? Only one starter home?”
Late 20s, probably. Once they marry. Millennials are getting married between 28-32 now. The dual income will help. They have to have a down payment anonny. Takes several years to save for that and really, just go see the world. More important things in your 20s.
But many Millennials won’t have kids. Won’t have to move to that “family” home. Families are smaller as well. Could stay in the city in the three bedroom condo or townhouse.
Things have changed since you could buy. You can’t do an all interest loan. Although you CAN still buy with 5% down but the PMI is a bitch.
Baby Boomers are retiring at 10,000 a day anonny. The youngest are about 57. And many of them can now “work from home” so why not move to Florida now?
The northern cities will be good deals for Millennials and GenZ as the Boomers flee. It’s already happening. You can see the turnover happening in the Gold Coast, for instance. Oak Park and Park Ridge too.
No one cares about UMC parents anonny. It’s a small percentage of America. We DO need to build more. But if you can work from anywhere, Millennials will make decisions to move to secondary cities where housing is more affordable. It puts cities across the Midwest in a great position to attract talent. I’d be looking in Milwaukee, Grand Rapids, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St Louis, Memphis, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Detroit, Cleveland. All are affordable.
“Going forward, I think UMC parents are going to need to stretch and give their 30+ year old kids a big chunk of money to subsidize their purchases. Many of us are going to be working until we die (and probably with reverse mortgages).”
This sounds absolutely depressing. This isn’t what I’m going to be doing. Why am I giving my kids housing help? They can figure it out. I gave them the education. They have good jobs and great opportunities. They will have dual income to buy something, if they decide to partner up. And even if they don’t, can still buy in Chicago or the secondary cities on their salaries.
Hooray for Chicago being so affordable.
Just have your kids move to San Antonio anonny. Can still buy a house for $250k-$350k there. Don’t need the bank of Mommy and Daddy to bail them out.
Haven’t you ever read The Millionaire Next Door? Giving your kids that kind of help actually hurts them.
“All except Supply V Demand, Right?”
The demographics can’t be denied. And the demographics were ALWAYS going to have the largest group of the Millennials, the largest generation, reaching marrying age (28-32) between the years 2020 and 2024.
We are in the middle of these surge years right now. It just so happened it also coincided with the coronavirus pandemic and the largest US migration since World War II ended. It was the perfect storm.
As you know, the cities weren’t doomed during the pandemic, and are now coming back stronger than ever. But building stalled during the first 12 to 16 months of the pandemic so they are playing catch up just as demand is soaring nationwide.
As you can see from Gary’s data, Chicago’s inventory fell even further in February, the start of the spring buying season. Under 2 months now on single family homes. Some neighborhoods have literally only a few dozen homes, total, that aren’t under contract here in March. 40 properties for sale, total, in all of Wicker Park. My god. I’ve never seen anything like this in Chicago.
Demographics tell you it will stay tight for several more years. Rising mortgage rates will slow it but I don’t believe we’ll see real impact until they are at least 4.5%. But without more inventory, home prices will stay elevated even as sales slow. Simply too many buyers out there.
Bob the Bear is going to have to remain in hibernation for years.
Many people are living in the past on this blog. Chicago’s housing market is genuinely hot. The hottest since the housing bubble.
Sabrina, I think we have a disconnect, becasue I’m talking about “super desirable areas,” and you’re talking about “affordable areas.” Out of “Milwaukee, Grand Rapids, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St Louis, Memphis, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Detroit, and Cleveland,” which one is at the top of your kids’ list? Nearing 30, they are going to pick up and leave Chicago for Columbus?
“No one cares about UMC parents anonny.”
You mean the Chicago Cop + CPS Teacher?
“Nearing 30, they are going to pick up and leave Chicago for Columbus?”
Why not? Plenty of friends from college already living in Columbus. One of them likes Pittsburgh a lot. Not sure where the other one would prefer. But it would be years away. They are not scared about moving to these popular secondary cities but we will see what happens with the job market. Chicago is much better early in their careers and while they will likely work from home in a hybrid, it could be that there won’t be as many opportunities in secondary cities.
It’s unclear. Too many things up in the air.
And you’re out of the loop, anonny, if you think that Columbus, Grand Rapids and Pittsburgh, out of my list, aren’t “super desirable areas.” Columbus is one of the hottest cities in America in terms of new people moving in and Grand Rapids routinely tops the lists of cities popular with Millennials.
The “top” GenX cities are NOT the top Millennial cities. They are priced out, and know it. That’s what puts Chicago in such an enviable position out of the “big” American cities. It’s the only one that is still affordable. You CAN obtain ownership in Chicago.
“You mean the Chicago Cop + CPS Teacher?”
Experienced teachers make $100k and more. I know some making $145k. Experienced cops also make a lot. If they both were working full time, then yes, they would qualify in Chicago for UMC.
Why wouldn’t they also give their kids a down payment on a house? They would have the money.
But no one cares about their problems. Middle class is the bigger deal. Many of them forced out of Chicago now as prices rise. They’re living in the suburbs.
“The demographics can’t be denied. And the demographics were ALWAYS going to have the largest group of the Millennials, the largest generation, reaching marrying age (28-32) between the years 2020 and 2024.”
So demand is up, supply constrained and prices are flat?
Yeah thats the ticket.
“Why not? Plenty of friends from college already living in Columbus. One of them likes Pittsburgh a lot. Not sure where the other one would prefer. But it would be years away. They are not scared about moving to these popular secondary cities but we will see what happens with the job market. Chicago is much better early in their careers and while they will likely work from home in a hybrid, it could be that there won’t be as many opportunities in secondary cities.”
So your kids couldnt hack it in the big cities?
It’s unclear. Too many things up in the air.
“And you’re out of the loop, anonny, if you think that Columbus, Grand Rapids and Pittsburgh, out of my list, aren’t “super desirable areas.” Columbus is one of the hottest cities in America in terms of new people moving in and Grand Rapids routinely tops the lists of cities popular with Millennials.”
2nd or 3rd tier options
“The “top” GenX cities are NOT the top Millennial cities. They are priced out, and know it. That’s what puts Chicago in such an enviable position out of the “big” American cities. It’s the only one that is still affordable. You CAN obtain ownership in Chicago.”
If its so desirable why is it so “Cheap” relative to others?
Guess hitting 100 Murders at the beginning of March is a bullish sign
“Bubble 2020- ???”
Big enough bubble could keep the water out.
“And you’re out of the loop, anonny, if you think that Columbus, Grand Rapids and Pittsburgh, out of my list, aren’t “super desirable areas.”
Well, I guess I’m out of the loop then. When I think of super desirable areas, I think of places that people travel to for a couple nights (and they aren’t from there and don’t know anyone there), or they have their wedding there (and they’re not from there), or if you’re at a beach resort or on a chairlift somewhere in the world or are having a conversation with someone in who’s in Chicago or Manhattan or LA and you say you live in an area, and the person you’re talking with says “oh I love it there” or “ah, beautiful, do you love it?” or whatever. Like, if someone came to this country from abroad, and said, “I’ve never been to the U.S., I am going to die in one year, I’d like to spend 2-3 months in 4 or 5 different towns/cities in the U.S., and money isn’t a concern. Where do you recommend?”
“Like, if someone came to this country from abroad, and said, “I’ve never been to the U.S., I am going to die in one year, I’d like to spend 2-3 months in 4 or 5 different towns/cities in the U.S., and money isn’t a concern. Where do you recommend?””
Oh c’mon nonny, Grand Rapids is the Paris, Chiang Mai and Tahiti of the pinky finger area of the Mitten, all in one. They have beer, Dutch Reformed attitudes, and MLM money…what more can you ask for? Nugent loves it, so will you!!
I would certainly go there before filthy NYC, or flooding Miami, or homeless and filthy and on fire California, not to even speak of bullet-filled Chicago.
“I’ve never been to the U.S., I am going to die in one year, I’d like to spend 2-3 months in 4 or 5 different towns/cities in the U.S., and money isn’t a concern. Where do you recommend?”
Waterloo, IA
E St Louis, IL
Pascagoula, MS
Mandan, ND
please add Stockton to your list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockton,_California#City_bankruptcy
“Like, if someone came to this country from abroad, and said, “I’ve never been to the U.S., I am going to die in one year, I’d like to spend 2-3 months in 4 or 5 different towns/cities in the U.S., and money isn’t a concern. Where do you recommend?””
Living somewhere for years is different from vacationing somewhere. You can LOVE New York and NEVER want to live there.
But if someone is a digital nomad and has no budget I would recommend:
1. New Orleans
2. Charleston
3. Santa Barbara
4. Santa Fe
5. Key West
“So your kids couldnt hack it in the big cities?”
They are in Chicago. But they may not always be here. Their parents have lived in several cities. You go where the career opportunities take you. But my opportunities will NOT be theirs. Things change. Why do GenXers think because they moved to the Bay Area in 1995 that their kids will want to go there in 2022?
Lots of cities have cool things going on. Many of them are a lot cheaper than the biggest cities. If they want to buy they will make decisions based on that. Many immediately left the Bay Area when work-from-home was enacted. They will not go back.
Austin and Nashville would have been considered lower tier “options” just 10 years ago. Not anymore.
“So demand is up, supply constrained and prices are flat?”
Where are prices flat JohnnyU?
Nowhere in America. And not in Chicago.
But let’s just ignore the data. Prices up BIG in many neighborhoods, outside of downtown. But the inventory is rapidly declining even in downtown. Will be really tight by this summer. Prices will be rising downtown, especially as those rents rise. Not much for sale in most high rises right now unless they are new construction luxury. It’s going to take a while to sell all the million dollar units in the St Regis. There are 400 of them. Although a $4 million unit just closed this week. They are slowly selling even the really pricey units.
There is obviously no realistic scenario where Chicago inventory is under 2 months, mortgage rates are under 4%, the job market is at full employment, and sales are at 17 year highs and prices are flat.
Come on.
“Nowhere in America. And not in Chicago”
Agreed on the first, disagree on the 2nd – https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=MJCH
Terrible
“There is obviously no realistic scenario where Chicago inventory is under 2 months, mortgage rates are under 4%, the job market is at full employment, and sales are at 17 year highs and prices are flat.”
Yet here we are
It’s true. Prices is Chicago are not flat. In fact if you bought in Chicago just 25 years ago, you would have doubled your money. That’s an annual return of nearly 3%! Yowzer! Move over every other city in the country. Chicago is on fire again!
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CHXRSA
“Yet here we are”
Yep With rising prices. EVERYWHERE.
Glad we agree JohnnyU.
Hey JohnnyU, how’s that “pending” data you said would show that Chicago’s market sucked turning out for you?
17 year high in February.
Lol.
The bears keep getting more and more pathetic.
“It’s true. Prices is Chicago are not flat. In fact if you bought in Chicago just 25 years ago, you would have doubled your money. That’s an annual return of nearly 3%!”
Yep. Chicago has averaged 1% to 3% a year for 75 years. We never went down except in the 1990s when there was no price appreciation for several years UNTIL the housing bust, of course.
Chicago has been pretty stable, otherwise.
It’s unfortunate the Fed isn’t acting quick enough to take the speculation out of the housing market in many cities across the country. Overheating is not good. It will create mini bubbles in many cities. Much more disruptive to the economy.
Housing will slow everywhere when rates get above 4% but certainly above 4.5%. Will still be a tight market though, because inventory is just too low. No way to build enough to meet all the demand even if the rates take some of the demand out of the market.
“But if someone is a digital nomad and has no budget I would recommend:
1. New Orleans
2. Charleston
3. Santa Barbara
4. Santa Fe
5. Key West”
There we go! Would the house that I could afford to live in, in or near most of those towns, be very nice or large? No (some worse than others). But it’s doable. And if your kids are college-educated knowledge workers (or had a high earning trade job), who are saving money by remaining home for a portion of their 20s, they could too. It’s all a matter of how a person weights the “where” vs “how” assessment. Since 89 when I left a metro area comparable to the midwestern gems you’re enthusiastic about, I have always prioritized “where” I was living, and that has pretty much always meant that the “how” I was living was inferior to lots of other locations.
“Baby Boomers are retiring at 10,000 a day anonny. The youngest are about 57. And many of them can now “work from home” so why not move to Florida now?”
Very interesting data on how long the typical US home is held for by city. In 2012 homeowners lived in their home an average of 10.1 years. This peaked in 2020 at 13.5 years; declining last year to 13.2 years.
For Chicago homes were lived in for 10.7 years in 2012. Last year 15.4 years.
All because boomers move to Florida doesn’t mean they sell their house in Chicago.
https://www.redfin.com/news/2021-homeowner-tenure/
From the redfin link:
“One-third (33%) of U.S. household heads were at least 65 years old in 2019”
That has to mean “who own their house”, right? Or 65+ really overrepresented by almost 2x in household heads, vs total population?
We’ve strayed far from the topic of this unit, but it is now contingent after 5 days on the market.
“We’ve strayed far from the topic of this unit, but it is now contingent after 5 days on the market.”
Thanks for the update Madeline.
Great views. Nice layout. Updated. Showed great. Cheaper than renting.
“All because boomers move to Florida doesn’t mean they sell their house in Chicago.”
Huh? Not understanding what you are saying WP. There are fewer snowbirds now. Many just decide to move there full time because Florida has lower taxes and, at least it used to, have lower housing prices.
“Would the house that I could afford to live in, in or near most of those towns, be very nice or large?”
You couldn’t even afford anything. Every single one of these cities has insane housing prices now. Key West is million and up. Santa Barbara the same. Charleston isn’t too bad if you go WAY outside the city or surrounding towns but even then it’s $400k and above. Some “affordable” homes still in NOLA, but not many. Santa Fe has been expensive for years. No starter homes there. Too many retirees!
So, no, my kids cannot move to ANY of these cities and buy. That’s why they would look in Pittsburgh, Cincinnati etc.
You are looking at things from the perspective of a GenXer anonny. In 1989, the cities all SUCKED. They were relatively cheap, too. Even San Francisco. Lots of crime etc. But cheap. Heck, Rent was written in the early 1990s. Now the lofts that were featured in that musical sell for $10 million.
It’s completely changed. And where the young people want to be has changed too. They’re not dumb. They know that 1-bedroom apartments are $3,000 in some parts of Chicago and $4000 in San Francisco. They know that houses are $1 to $2 million in the Bay Area, just to start. They know NYC might only be for the short term.
This is why so many of them fled in work-from-home.
None of my kids live at home. What 20-something in the best job market ever wants to live at home? Not many. They all live in group apartments with friends. It keeps costs down and it’s like college for them.
But moving to Boulder just isn’t a priority for them. Insanely expensive. They DO like the idea of some of the SE cities like Atlanta. They are practical.
Your challenge was “where would you go for a few months if you were dying and money was no object?”
That’s not the same thing as “go to this city, struggle to pay rent/mortgage for the next 10 years, never take a decent vacation because your money is going to rent/mortgage.”
Living somewhere full time is different than being a digital nomad.
“You couldn’t even afford anything. Every single one of these cities has insane housing prices now. Key West is million and up. Santa Barbara the same. Charleston isn’t too bad if you go WAY outside the city or surrounding towns but even then it’s $400k and above. Some “affordable” homes still in NOLA, but not many. Santa Fe has been expensive for years. No starter homes there. Too many retirees!”
BS
What you’re saying is you cant afford a starter home in the exact loacation and finishes you want
Welcome to reality, life is full of trade-offs
“You are looking at things from the perspective of a GenXer anonny. In 1989, the cities all SUCKED.”
OK boomer. Who was the group that first started moving back/not leaving the city?
“You are looking at things from the perspective of a GenXer anonny. In 1989, the cities all SUCKED.”
Sabrina, yes, I’m gen x. I’m 51. Based on HS graduation year, I “should” have graduated from college in 92. But I graduated from college in 2005, 13 years “late.” There are 40-year old millennials, so by college graduation year, I’m a few years younger than the oldest millennials (younger still accounting for the fact that I didn’t actually begin a career until 16 years post-HS). Believe me, I know that I’m more than a decade behind my same-age peers in terms of savings, investments, and real estate move-ups, especially having strated out with grad school debt vastly higher than it would have been had I attended in the mid-90s and with a newborn in year-one of my career. I am solidly a millennial as far as housing goes.
Also, having lived in Atlanta, I would totally urge your kids to consider moving there. But the desirable areas to live there aren’t much cheaper than the desirable areas in Chicago.
Yup, very little affordable in NOLA. How could anyone make this place work?
https://www.redfin.com/LA/New-Orleans/4107-Hollygrove-St-70118/home/85500493
I’d want a really good inspection, of course.
Sure, if you “have to” be in the Garden District, it’s more expensive, but that’s pretty similar to comparing Boulder to other Front Range options like Longmont and Ft Collins, which get you ~80% of the ‘lifestyle’ of the location minus (i) commutability to Denver, (ii) the school district and (iii) proximity to some UMC preferred stuff, for a lot less $$.
“There are fewer snowbirds now. Many just decide to move there full time because Florida has lower taxes and, at least it used to, have lower housing prices.”
Cite please. The national data does not support this thesis. Demand for second/vacation homes is higher than demand for primary homes. People in the 65+ age cohort who retire and move to Florida/Arizona don’t have to sell their primary home given they can tap the equity and refi to purchase the new house and rent out their Illinois SFH which is in high demand from renters.
“Sure, if you “have to” be in the Garden District, it’s more expensive, but that’s pretty similar to comparing Boulder to other Front Range options like Longmont and Ft Collins, which get you ~80% of the ‘lifestyle’ of the location minus (i) commutability to Denver, (ii) the school district and (iii) proximity to some UMC preferred stuff, for a lot less $$.”
Yep. Though I’ve come to view Fort Collins as being just a bit too far (from Denver and I-70 mountain access), such that one would need to be pretty content with staying in town most of the time (for work or other stuff). I really like FC, but it entails nearly the level of lifestyle commitment that people in the mountains make in terms of distance to things (though I actually have friends who live in FC and one of them needs to commute almost daily to downtown Denver to run a location of their biz (are there sensory deprivation float centers in Chicago?); that’s a lot of time spent on I-25). Longmont, on the other hand, has been a breakout star in terms of lower cost of entry relative to what one gets, as you note. It’s maybe 5-10 minutes farther from DIA or Denver than Boulder, and maybe 15-20 farther from I-70 access, and its distance to Boulder’s mountain/foothills amenities (and Boulder in general) isn’t much farther than what folks in Fort Collins have to drive to get to theirs (though if anyone’s ever planning a summer trip to CO and is into music, aside from seeing if anything you like is happening at Red Rocks, seeing bands at the Mishawaka amphitheater along the Poudre River, just outside FC, is highly recommended) . Longmont, like Arvada, was the butt of snobby jokes 20+ years ago (guilty here), but both have become pretty desirable (I know people in both whose houses have tripled or quadrupled since then).
Nice looking place in Key West for the same $525k as the featured unit:
https://www.redfin.com/FL/Key-West/6518-5th-St-33040/home/139252318
Lower taxes, no HOA. Insurance is a lot higher, of course.
“are there sensory deprivation float centers in Chicago?”
The one I knew of was in the building at ~2500 Lincoln with the tennis courts facing the El that has been replaced. Dunno if they moved or what…[]…they claim to be coming back soon: http://chicagofloatationtanks.com/
and there are apparently several others around.
“a bit too far (from Denver and I-70 mountain access)”
You can put the delta in first home price into a 2d place in the mountains (rental, share, whatever)–we’re talking about people likely to be remote working anyway, they could spend a few weeks or months up there and only suffer the extra drive a handful of times a year.
Completely unaffordable starter home in Santa Fe:
https://www.redfin.com/NM/Santa-Fe/4342-Lost-Feather-Ln-87507/home/99917294
With anything in New Orleans, don’t forget hurricane and flood insurance (through FEMA) in addition to regular homeowner’s insurance. Those cost about $3000 a year for my parent’s winter house in New Orleans and their house is not in a flood zone. Then you have storm damage. Last summer they had to have the roof replaced and front yard redone because a large tree blew over. Also. their property taxes are about the same as my Chicago condo’s and the house is worth less.
They also had to get a new A/C unit and water heater, but not sure if that is storm related.
“their property taxes are about the same as my Chicago condo’s and the house is worth less.”
I linked to a house (nicely updated, at least cosmetically) with annual taxes lower than the monthly taxes on the featured condo.
But the point wasn’t anything more than countering: “Some “affordable” homes still in NOLA, but not many.”
“But the point wasn’t anything more than countering: “Some “affordable” homes still in NOLA, but not many.”
To counter: https://www.redfin.com/LA/New-Orleans/74-English-Turn-Dr-70131/home/79331192
House is cheap, not property taxes
“Overpriced and an ugly building. I’d rather have had this townhome in the terraces. https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/801-S-Plymouth-Ct-60605/unit-S/home/14091702
I’m really surprised this place went for only $494,000. Seems like a really nice place in a nice area for that price. I didn’t see any townhouses as nice at this place for this price when I was looking. Only issue I see is that it doesn’t have a coat closet near the front door.”
I’ve always wanted feedback on Cribchatter and this was my home. We sold quickly due to being under contract about 45 days prior and I couldn’t stomach holding both. Timing didn’t help either, we listed 10 days before Thanksgiving and didn’t want it to go stale.
Views? Those will be gone from this building in 10 years.
Nice looking place in Key West for the same $525k as the featured unit:
https://www.redfin.com/FL/Key-West/6518-5th-St-33040/home/139252318
you aren’t going to mock things like different color stove and dishwasher in pic 12/13 or tile work in pic 27?
or perhaps just include the disclaimer need to have a thorough inspection again 🙂
have a good weekend
Congratulations on you sale,Stephen. Really nice townhouse. Did you like living in the area? Seems really convenient to everything and yet out of the way.
“Views? Those will be gone from this building in 10 years.”
Will it?
I wish someone would really have a discussion about this. I’m not as familiar with the north view at this location but the east seems pretty secure. There’s no openings on the Michigan Avenue wall in that location and several buildings are historic and protected. They are building the new Helmut Jahn skyscraper just to the south, however, so it may block some of the views of the NEMA, for instance.
I love it when people post random homes in sizable cities with no knowledge or context of the neighborhood or location.
Rock on!
Yeah, let’s buy a mobile home for our dream home.
Come on anon(tfo). Do better. Not even relevant.
Where do you all think a GenZer or a younger Millennial WANTS to live in these cities?
Where their parents live? In some big, boring suburb?
Blah. Get out of your own world. Times have changed.
“What you’re saying is you cant afford a starter home in the exact loacation and finishes you want”
Yes, my kids need a starter home when starting out. Duh!
Those cities are all unaffordable to them now. They aren’t even on the list for where they would want to live. Which is why I said, being a digital nomad and going to a pretty city for 2 months is very different from living there full time, owning property, paying taxes and being part of a community for years.
They are looking to do this in affordable cities which are mostly in the Midwest and Ohio Valley.
Everyone on this blog needs to get out more. Plenty of secondary cities booming if you can make your career work in one. You don’t have to pay $1.5 million for a house. Pay $200,000. Live your life. Travel. Go to the breweries. Save for retirement and your kids college. Plenty of great cities out there, including Chicago.
“OK boomer. Who was the group that first started moving back/not leaving the city?”
GenX. Like anonny, who says he’s 51.
They graduated college in the late 1980s through the 1990s and moved to cities. Their parents didn’t want them to because the city was “bad.” My dad bought me mace and “the club” for my car. I did not get a CD player in my car because they were being stolen, often, out of cars so my car had an empty opening where it would have gone.
The popular cities then are not the popular ones now.
“To counter:”
That house is tax assessed for 15%+ more than the asking price. And it’s tax bill is about 1.5% of that assessed value–where it has been over 2% in Chicago for several years.
Where in this is any statement about being in the “cool” part of town:
“You couldn’t even afford anything. Every single one of these cities has insane housing prices now. Key West is million and up. Santa Barbara the same. Charleston isn’t too bad if you go WAY outside the city or surrounding towns but even then it’s $400k and above. Some “affordable” homes still in NOLA, but not many. Santa Fe has been expensive for years. No starter homes there. Too many retirees!”
Nowhere, that’s where.
But shoulda known that you’d move the goalposts across the county line.
Oh noes, the kids don’t want to live in a ‘boring’ part of City X, they’d rather live in the “exciting” part of Toledo.
From the *same person* who says everyone should consider “boring” parts of Chicago.
“GenX. Like anonny, who says he’s 51.
They graduated college in the late 1980s through the 1990s and moved to cities. Their parents didn’t want them to because the city was “bad.” My dad bought me mace and “the club” for my car. I did not get a CD player in my car because they were being stolen, often, out of cars so my car had an empty opening where it would have gone.”
The cities sucked from a GenX POV, yet GenX were the first cohort to move into the city? Thats some weird logic
“The popular cities then are not the popular ones now.”
So Chicago isnt popular? You who prattles constantly about Millennials and their want to live in Chicago?
“Yes, my kids need a starter home when starting out. Duh!
Those cities are all unaffordable to them now. They aren’t even on the list for where they would want to live. Which is why I said, being a digital nomad and going to a pretty city for 2 months is very different from living there full time, owning property, paying taxes and being part of a community for years.”
Sounds like they have champaign tastes on a Keystone Light budget
“Everyone on this blog needs to get out more. Plenty of secondary cities booming if you can make your career work in one. You don’t have to pay $1.5 million for a house. Pay $200,000. Live your life. Travel. Go to the breweries. Save for retirement and your kids college. Plenty of great cities out there, including Chicago.”
Yet you rip on folks that do this with the claim that they “couldn’t hack it”
“champaign tastes on a Keystone Light budget”
Those are the same thing, no?
Or do the Illini turn up their noses at bottled beer taste in a can, and only drink the premium stuff, like Bud Light?
“That house is tax assessed for 15%+ more than the asking price. And it’s tax bill is about 1.5% of that assessed value–where it has been over 2% in Chicago for several years.”
Then the property taxes on my parent’s house is also over assessed. The linked property has been a rental for many years
I was trying to say that NOLA is a terrible place for remote or winter homes due to, in part, costs unrelated to home price. It’s also a terrible place to begin a career. Of my ten cousins now in their early 30’s and late 20’s who graduated high school and college in Louisianna, only one is making his career in NOLA. Once you leave your intoxicated haze of the French Quarter, southeast Louisianna is a dump with good food.
“southeast Louisianna is a dump with good food.”
Well, yes, but it’s also not a place properly described as:
“Some “affordable” homes still in NOLA, but not many.”
Unless you’re someone who would only consider living in the “green zone”.
“Congratulations on you sale, Stephen. Really nice townhouse. Did you like living in the area? Seems really convenient to everything and yet out of the way.”
Thanks Jenny, we really loved the place and the location but it wasn’t suitable with another child on the way. Having that patio and all the parks nearby during covid was awesome. It was also very convenient to working in the loop and accessing the highways to visit relatives.
“Of my ten cousins now in their early 30’s and late 20’s who graduated high school and college in Louisianna, only one is making his career in NOLA.”
It’s only 390,000 people. Small city. It’s never had the jobs, other than in hospitality and oil and gas. Healthcare has picked up in recent years.
But if everyone is working from home now, you can live anywhere. Hence why homes are at all-time highs in the city and a house that was listed for $1.45 million in the Garden District sold for $150k over ask at $1.6 million.
NOLA was affordable about 10 years ago, after Katrina because so many had fled. But the “work-from-homers” and digital nomads, have now pushed prices way up from what is affordable.
anonny asked what 5 cities someone would stay in if they were going to die in a year. Yes, I would live in New Orleans for 2 to 3 months under that scenario. But as I continue to say, staying somewhere for a few months is not the same thing as committing to live there and then doing so for 10 years. Digital nomads aren’t a part of the community. They aren’t voting for mayor. They don’t care if the schools stink or the garbage isn’t being picked up.
Lauren’s insights just confirm that people should rent a Sonder apartment for 2 or 3 months of the year and let them deal with the upkeep and hurricanes.
“The cities sucked from a GenX POV, yet GenX were the first cohort to move into the city? Thats some weird logic.”
Yep. They were cheap. GenX didn’t have kids so schools weren’t an issue. And then the developers started building new condos everywhere, so why not buy one?
City lovers should thank GenX for being the first to lead the urban renaissance.
“Will it?
I wish someone would really have a discussion about this. I’m not as familiar with the north view at this location but the east seems pretty secure. There’s no openings on the Michigan Avenue wall in that location and several buildings are historic and protected. They are building the new Helmut Jahn skyscraper just to the south, however, so it may block some of the views of the NEMA, for instance.”
Given my recent proximity to this address I do believe that views on Wabash will be impacted in the future. The Essex stole some of those views only a few years ago and they are surrounded by parking lots or underutilized garages. 609 S State, ~609, 722 and 801 Wabash, 834 s Michigan. 549 S Wabash has already announced a hotel and view blocker. East and South take into account even more empty lots on south Wabash closer to the Jahn Skyscraper.
All those cities are insane now. You think my kids want to go from Chicago, where you can get a 2/2 condo that is 1200 square feet for $400k to New Orleans in a 2 bedroom house that is just 975 square feet for nearly the same price?
Come on. Absurd.
The reason Millennials and GenZ may move to secondary cities later after marrying is because of affordable housing. No one is looking at Charleston for that. Nor NOLA. The affordable secondary cities are all in the Midwest and Ohio Valley. Too bad for some parts of the West because some cities used to be affordable there too like Boise, Salt Lake City, Spokane.
Las Vegas was affordable after the housing bust up until 2020 when the pandemic hit. And now it’s insane again.
Midwest is a real deal. Even Chicago. Can still get a lovely vintage 1-bedroom with a dining room for just $200,000.
I don’t know if they will leave. But if they do they are looking at cities like Pittsburgh which still has affordable housing and lots of outdoor activity options.
“Having that patio and all the parks nearby during covid was awesome.”
Those patios are great stephen. Very private.
You did a nice update on this property. That’s the way to get a quick sale.
“Given my recent proximity to this address I do believe that views on Wabash will be impacted in the future. The Essex stole some of those views only a few years ago and they are surrounded by parking lots or underutilized garages. 609 S State, ~609, 722 and 801 Wabash, 834 s Michigan. 549 S Wabash has already announced a hotel and view blocker. East and South take into account even more empty lots on south Wabash closer to the Jahn Skyscraper.”
Thanks for the local info stephen. I forgot about that Sonder development going in on Wabash. It will really help the neighborhood though. The El tracks have stalled any development in that location all these years but what do travelers/short term renters care if they live next to them? Lol.
No views are ever guaranteed unless you are surrounded by historic buildings and even that isn’t a 100% guarantee. And any parking lot is certain to be built on, so buyers have no excuse for not “knowing” if there is a parking lot nearby.
Agreed Sabrina and I laugh at the Nimby’s who complain about views being lost at local meetings.
“They are looking to do this in affordable cities which are mostly in the Midwest and Ohio Valley. ”
Its “affordable” because taxes are high and it sucks living there
Although I always ask, why not just live in a black neighborhood? Tons of cheap real estate in every major city, think of the money you could save?
“Those are the same thing, no?
Or do the Illini turn up their noses at bottled beer taste in a can, and only drink the premium stuff, like Bud Light?”
Considering beer was served in a bucket, I dont think a typical Illini student was that picky. Hell it was a big deal when one of the bars on Green got Genesse
“Although I always ask, why not just live in a black neighborhood?”
Well, if you suggest something in a non-majority-white neighborhood, you get a comment like this:
“I love it when people post random homes in sizable cities with no knowledge or context of the neighborhood or location.”
which presumes incorrectly that the ‘random home’ was suggested without knowledge that it was in a non-majority-white neighborhood.
“anonny asked what 5 cities someone would stay in if they were going to die in a year. Yes, I would live in New Orleans for 2 to 3 months under that scenario. But as I continue to say, staying somewhere for a few months is not the same thing as committing to live there and then doing so for 10 years. Digital nomads aren’t a part of the community. They aren’t voting for mayor. They don’t care if the schools stink or the garbage isn’t being picked up.”
Good grief. Why is what I’m trying to convey here either difficult to comprehend or being mischaracterized? You’re now saying that some of the 5 places you’re proposing are actually BAD to live in, in some ways (like schools or trash pick-up), but that’s okay, because it’s only a temporary stay? You’re actually going to tell someone who’s got only a year to live, but with unlimited funds, to go live somewhere that’s sort of nice, but also sort of crappy (because hey, it’s not like they’ll be voting there)? Come on. Pick 5 places that are AWESOME (I think Santa Barbara is, and to a lesser extent, Key West and Santa Fe). Five places that, whether you’re talking to someone who’s only got a year to live, or to a 25 year old who’s only getting one life to live. It’s one thing if a young person gets a rare career opportunity (or marries someone who does) in one of cities you’re boosting that simply won’t happen someplace awesome (a tenure track professor job is one thing that’s coming to mind, or a C-suite job that they know they’ll be able to leverage into one in a more desirable area after a short time), or the person has limited good employment options and needs very affordable living, but it’s another matter when a 20-something is trying to pick a place to make the most of this one, short life, and isn’t compelled or constrained by some incredible career opportunity or some personal hardship (unexpected baby, or they or their spouse has a serious illness, and funds are limited, etc.) You’re urging your college educated kids (or at least not challenging them not) to settle down eventually in Cincinnati or Pittsburg or whatever – so basically, when you spend time and money to go and visit them, you’ll be downgrading for the length of your visit (such places not being comparable to Chicago)? Jeez. Away from the supposedly “hot” areas of those cities (with breweries!), a few miles away, most of it is serious MAGA country for crying out loud, and that’s only getting worse, not better. I hope my kids end up living in Chicago or near an ocean or in a mountain town, or some equivalent of one of those in another country. When visiting my kids 15-20+ years from now, if they’re at work, I want to think, “what should we go out to do and see today in this awesome place while we wait for them to get home?” I guess I’m just hopelessly aspirational (and broke).
“what should we go out to do and see today in this awesome place while we wait for them to get home?”
When a man is tired of Columbus, he is tired of life, for there is in Columbus all that life can afford,
said no one, ever.
“Where do you all think a GenZer or a younger Millennial WANTS to live in these cities?
“Where their parents live? In some big, boring suburb?”
Nah, they want to live in a small, boring city, with suburban-like density.
Sounds like they have champaign tastes on a Keystone Light budget
Champaign tastes on an Urbana budget!
From the *same person* who says everyone should consider “boring” parts of Chicago.
Hard to compare New Orleans to Chicago, b/c Nola has absolutely TERRIBLE public transit, so if you don’t have a car (and it’s very expensive to have a car), you’d want to be closer to the CBD and/or the “cool” (ie. walkable) neighborhoods.
In Chicago, if you live in Jefferson Park, you can hop on the blue line and get to Logan, Bucktown, Wicker, Downtown pretty easily. Fulton Market/West Loop require a bit of a walk and/or bus transfer; and even Lincoln Park/Lakeview/Andersonville are do-able via public transit. In New Orleans, if you live in Hollygrove or Dixon and want to get to Bywater? You’re driving or uber/lyfting; or you’re looking at a multi-hour commute by bus. Or a bike ride on poorly maintained/lit streets.
Once you leave your intoxicated haze of the French Quarter, southeast Louisianna is a dump with good food.
What I like about New Orleans is that it has all the cultural amenities of a much larger city. Nola has a ballet, a symphony, an opera company, a decent independent theatre scene, and a pretty large artist community. And, obviously, great food, live music, and bars.
Like Sabrina says, though, the job situation is bleak and always has been. I think at one point, Nola was the largest city without a fortune 500 headquarters.
“OK boomer. Who was the group that first started moving back/not leaving the city?”
GenX.
As an old Xer with Boomer siblings, can confirm. My sibs and their friends moved to the ‘burbs after college. I and my friends all moved to cities.
“Nah, they want to live in a small, boring city, with suburban-like density.”
Pittsburgh has “suburban like density”? Obviously you’ve never been there.
Density varies in other cities. If you’re in Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati, it’s very dense. Same with Soulard in St Louis. Other neighborhoods like Central West End are getting there. More building in the last 10 years have been filling in those empty lots. Grand Rapids isn’t that dense. But popular cities like Austin aren’t dense either. And Nashville is certainly not dense.
One reason big city lovers love NOLA is because you can live in the French Quarter, which is built to be very dense. CBD also pretty dense. Unfortunatly, not as many living in FQ today compared to centuries past.
But you can live in the second largest city in America and still have “suburban-like density.”
When you get older and marry and have a family, you want affordable housing. Younger Millennials and GenZ will move to get it. This is fantastic for America. We’re seeing a renaissance of the smaller cities.
“You’re now saying that some of the 5 places you’re proposing are actually BAD to live in,”
Full time? Forever? Yes. Hell yes.
Fires, hurricanes, earthquakes, droughts and climate change challenges.
“You’re urging your college educated kids (or at least not challenging them not) to settle down eventually in Cincinnati or Pittsburg or whatever – so basically, when you spend time and money to go and visit them, you’ll be downgrading for the length of your visit (such places not being comparable to Chicago)?”
Why would we be downgrading?
Ba ha ha ha.
Clearly, you’ve never been to these cities anonny. I love Cincinnati and Pittsburgh. I vacation in St Louis often. It’s fantastic.
And, again, what was “hot” in your 20s and 30s is no longer “hot.” Sooooo much has changed in the last 30 years with American cities. And the pandemic has now wiped out the reasons you had to be in some of the formerly “popular” cities.
Who in their right mind would actually want to live in the Bay Area anymore?
The WSJ just looked at what cities have been gaining tech jobs during the pandemic. Not surprising, some of the smaller college towns have been big winners like Madison, WI.
From the article:
“Tech jobs in nine cities considered rising stars in technology, including Atlanta, Dallas, Denver, Miami and St. Louis, initially contracted in the early days of the Covid-19 era, but by the end of 2020, tech employment in those cities rose by at least 3% on average. Since then, the number of tech roles posted in these cities has surged, suggesting that workers are attracted to areas with a lower cost of living compared with the East and West coasts and that companies are tapping the labor market in cities with more diverse workers, Mr. Muro says.”
Surprised to see St Louis in there? Shouldn’t be. It’s Microsoft’s Midwest HQ and Block opened up a second office downtown pre-pandemic.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/thousands-of-new-tech-jobs-spring-up-far-from-silicon-valley-11646829150
“I vacation in St Louis often. It’s fantastic.”
While living in Altanta, I became friends with some nice folks who grew up in what I gather is an affluent part of St. Louis, and when I moved to Chicago, I met some more at my first firm (who grew up in the same area of St. Louis; many of them knew each other, I think it was sort of a New Trier of St. Louis). Anyways, from what I could tell then (and from what I’ve seen on Facebook over the past decade+), they all return home for family visits and holidays and whatnot, but none appear to be “vacationing” there. They all seem to favor going somewhere with a beach or mountains. Weird.
“They all seem to favor going somewhere with a beach or mountains. Weird.”
Huh????
Do people not “vacation” in Chicago? NYC? Philadelphia? DC?
I’m pretty sure they do. Not every “vacation” is going to a beach.
Lol.
Also, they grew up there. I don’t know anyone who “vacations” in the place they grew up and where they go to visit family/friends. None of my friends who grew up in Chicago comes back to “vacation” in Chicago. But they DO vacation in New York City.
Yeah- my husband and I “vacation” in St Louis. We love it. Great museums. Best parks outside of Chicago. Food scene rocks. Art scene is good. So easy to do a Quick 3 or 4 day weekend trip from Chicago.
City has changed a lot in the last decade and will continue to do so. Needs to attract more young people and build more housing. Really needs the bike path desperately. The neighborhoods need to be attached in some way. I wish there were light rail, like Kansas City built, from the downtown to Soulard. Also needs development along the river front. I also wish there were more hotels with outdoor pools. With the hot summers, you’d think there would be. But surprisingly, there is not.
Lots to be done there. Many challenges. But it’s headed in the right direction.
Anyone have any recommendations on other Midwest cities that would be good vacation destinations for just a few days? We’re thinking Minneapolis in the summer as we haven’t been up there in many years. Must be a different place now. We’re also thinking about hanging out in Milwaukee and Grand Rapids.
“Density varies in other cities. If you’re in Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati, it’s very dense. Same with Soulard in St Louis.“
Granted I haven’t been there since COVID but Soulard very dense? Unless you’re including the stadium village (or what ever they call it), what large scale multi family development has gone up in Soulard. JFC A-B is right in the middle of Soulard along with the industrial properties to the river. Let me know when these get tore down for housing a la Fulton a Market.
You were also talking previously on how Soulard was finally going to turn…
St Louis fine to visit, but living there – As someone that lived there and is there fairly regularly no chance. I’d take a North Jersey over it (and not the hip Jersey City/Hoboken) Anonny is correct, the city Is a HS Kliq and as someone that’s fairly blue collar, it’s the most redneck place I’ve ever been, worse than anywhere in Tx, La, Ms, Ky
“ We’re thinking Minneapolis in the summer as we haven’t been up there in many years. Must be a different place now.”
Depending on when you were there last, Shit ton more pan handlers, tent cities, Lake Street being a mess, some lightrail, and development along the River/Mill District not a lot of changes.
Food, Beer & parks blow StL out of the water
If you’re serious and need rec’s let me know, I winter there from Ft Wayne
St. Louis, seriously? No way in hell am I going to live in a state where soon it will be illegal for doctors to surgically remove an ectopic pregnancy. They are also trying to make it illegal to leave the state to receive reproductive services, so a woman’s choice will be death or the financial destruction of whomever helps her leave the state. Even if by some miracle these laws don’t pass, many people in Missouri favor these types of laws seeing as they elect these people. Other states being bandied about in this thread are equally as horrible.
I don’t want to live near or know people who support these measures. Not all states are equally safe for a woman to live or to raise a daughter. If I stay in the US, I’m staying in a blue state.
“Granted I haven’t been there since COVID but Soulard very dense?”
Soulard is the same density as the French Quarter, basically. No zoning, everything thrown together. Thousands lived there in the 1800s in every nook and cranny. Still very dense. Rowhouses on several streets. Back to back to back.
Soulard “turned” two decades ago. Has Lakeview “turned”?
Lol.
Soulard is a historic district. The entire thing. They’ve been converting schools, warehouses into housing for a long time now. Really need more building north towards Ballpark Village so that the two neighborhoods connect. Need a builder with vision to go in there ala Lincoln Yards. They are building a nice new development of apartments and a hotel in Lafayette Square right now on the site of an old factory that blew up 15 years ago. That’s what is needed, but on a larger scale.
I love St Louis. No other city like it. Central West End is hopping. Another new tower expected to go in overlooking Forest Park. So many natural advantages, like the parks, that other cities don’t have except, frankly, Chicago.
Also attracts a lot of artists from around the world for some reason so it has a strong artist community. Cheaper standard of living makes it more accessible for artists to live and work there, perhaps?
“ Soulard is the same density as the French Quarter, basically. No zoning, everything thrown together. Thousands lived there in the 1800s in every nook and cranny. Still very dense. Rowhouses on several streets. Back to back to back.
Soulard “turned” two decades ago. Has Lakeview “turned”?
Lol.”
So Soulard hasn’t increased in density in 30 years. Row housing is not dense.
Soulard hasn’t turned. It’s the same as it was in the late 90’s.
“ Need a builder with vision to go in there ala Lincoln Yards. They are building a nice new development of apartments and a hotel in Lafayette Square right now on the site of an old factory that blew up 15 years ago. That’s what is needed, but on a larger scale.”
There isn’t demand, hence no building.
“ I love St Louis. No other city like it. Central West End is hopping. Another new tower expected to go in overlooking Forest Park. So many natural advantages, like the parks, that other cities don’t have except, frankly, Chicago.”
Frankly, you are wrong. Forrest Park is nice, but that’s it.
I guess the murder rate & racism would be an advantage to someone like yourself
“Do people not “vacation” in Chicago?” Chicagoans?
“St. Louis, seriously? No way in hell am I going to live in a state where soon it will be illegal for doctors to surgically remove an ectopic pregnancy. They are also trying to make it illegal to leave the state to receive reproductive services, so a woman’s choice will be death or the financial destruction of whomever helps her leave the state. Even if by some miracle these laws don’t pass, many people in Missouri favor these types of laws seeing as they elect these people. Other states being bandied about in this thread are equally as horrible.
I don’t want to live near or know people who support these measures. Not all states are equally safe for a woman to live or to raise a daughter. If I stay in the US, I’m staying in a blue state.”
Yep. It’s one thing to going to FL. It’s another thing to go to Missouri.
There are under 4,000 people who live in Soulard. Kosciusko, toward the river, has under 100 residents.
But yes, Soulard is about the same population density as the French Quarter, and both are about the same density as Skokie.
“But yes, Soulard is about the same population density as the French Quarter, and both are about the same density as Skokie.”
Both Soulard and the French Quarter used to have thousands of residents. Both have seen a decline over the last century. French Quarter is a shadow of itself which is why they banned Airbnbs. They need to attract full time residents again.
Doesn’t mean both neighborhoods aren’t dense.
“Yep. It’s one thing to going to FL. It’s another thing to go to Missouri.”
That’s the standard now? Florida: it’s not as bad as Missouri.
Wow.
“There isn’t demand, hence no building.”
They are building all over St Louis. Like mad. Apartment rents have risen and housing inventory is just as tight as in Chicago.
And they now have one iconic building in the CWE that overlooks the park. I hope they don’t mess it up on the second one that has just been proposed. But it’s not designed by Jeanne Gang so it’s already got that strike against it.
But again, I’m talking with someone who hasn’t lived in any of these cities, hasn’t been to them in years and is writing about his “thoughts” on them from his suburban Indiana house.
Lol.
You can’t make this stuff up.
“ Both Soulard and the French Quarter used to have thousands of residents. Both have seen a decline over the last century. French Quarter is a shadow of itself which is why they banned Airbnbs. They need to attract full time residents again.
Doesn’t mean both neighborhoods aren’t dense.”
Except for the fact that they aren’t dense
“ But again, I’m talking with someone who hasn’t lived in any of these cities, hasn’t been to them in years and is writing about his “thoughts” on them from his suburban Indiana house.
Lol.
I lived in Soulard
Was there right before COVID and traveled there pretty regularly
But I forget, you going there for a weekend gives you much more insight… it’s a very unique skill set you have there
“ You can’t make this stuff up.””
You literally just did. Lying is your hallmark
“Density varies in other cities. If you’re in Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati, it’s very dense. Same with Soulard in St Louis. Other neighborhoods like Central West End are getting there. More building in the last 10 years have been filling in those empty lots. Grand Rapids isn’t that dense. But popular cities like Austin aren’t dense either. And Nashville is certainly not dense.”
“Soulard is the same density as the French Quarter”
Soulard Density – 2,806
Austin Density – 2,833
Grand Rapids – 4,550
NOLA FQ – 7,890
“That’s the standard now? Florida: it’s not as bad as Missouri.”
Nah. It’s:
MO and FL are both [lands of questionable politics and attitudes for some]**, but Florida at least has beaches and shit.
**I changed it from something inflammatory.
“Soulard Density – 2,806
…
“NOLA FQ – 7,890”
Just curious about source–I didn’t take any time verifying what I found, but found much closer density numbers–Soulard higher (based on an area of less than one sq mi) and FQ lower.
“Just curious about source–I didn’t take any time verifying what I found, but found much closer density numbers–Soulard higher (based on an area of less than one sq mi) and FQ lower.”
https://statisticalatlas.com/neighborhood/Louisiana/New-Orleans/French-Quarter/Population
Saw one at 8.3k & one at 6.8k.
YMMV
^
There is no one other than Sabrina claiming that Soulard is “very dense”
Other than for Mardi Gras
“Saw one at 8.3k & one at 6.8k.
YMMV”
thx. Think there is some variance in the denominator for FQ. Using googleearth, I come up with somewhat less than .5 sq mi, so think the high side is closer to correct, making FQ meaningfully more sense than Soulard.
I will note that the statisticalatlas.com density for Soulard is 5,440, rather than the 2,806 you had. For comparison, the same site has the following for Chicago area densities:
Winnetka = 3,270
Naperville = 3,770
Park Ridge = 5,300
Skokie = 6,450
Norridge = 8,300
Edison Park = 9,900
Berwyn = 14,450
Old Town = 37,040
Is Soulard a Barrigton? Of course not. But’s it’s also not as dense as Clayton, MO.
New Orleans is a dump and so is St. Louis, no idea why anyone would even say to another person that they “vacationed” in either place… yuck!
“thx. Think there is some variance in the denominator for FQ. Using googleearth, I come up with somewhat less than .5 sq mi, so think the high side is closer to correct, making FQ meaningfully more sense than Soulard.”
If Sabrina said Soulard is more dense, you can take it to the bank!!!
Qualitatively, Soulard comps to Berwyn/EP/Norridge seem appropriate.
“New Orleans is a dump and so is St. Louis, no idea why anyone would even say to another person that they “vacationed” in either place… yuck!”
NO Is a pretty good spot to spend a long weekend, just not in the summer
StL – I guess a Cardnials/Blues game and Imo’s pizza is about as good as it gets.
“Qualitatively, Soulard comps to Berwyn”
Yet, somehow, Berwyn is about twice as dense.
“Yet, somehow, Berwyn is about twice as dense.”
Going to kinda contradict myself a bit…
A-B takes up a decent chunk of real estate in Soulard, excluding it from the total area would increase the density.
Before we go down a rabbit hole of taking out all non residential areas and turning this into a 8th grade science fair project, Berwyn, NO, et al have commercial, schools, parks, etc that would need to be discounted from the total area as well
The qualitative was based on walking around
That being said, Soulard is not dense by any reasonable definition of the word
“New Orleans is a dump and so is St. Louis, no idea why anyone would even say to another person that they “vacationed” in either place… yuck!”
Someone hasn’t traveled in a long, long time. Like a decade.
“StL – I guess a Cardnials/Blues game and Imo’s pizza is about as good as it gets.”
That would be like saying Giordano’s is as good as it gets in Chicago. Lol. I guess if you live in some suburb somewhere, then, yeah, a pizza joint trumps the James Beard award nominees in Chicago and St Louis.
For someone who says he went there all the time before COVID, JohnnyU really doesn’t know anything about it. But then, he doesn’t know anything about Chicago either so why am I bothering?
For those going to St Louis, stay in The Chase Park Plaza in the Central West End. It’s historic and has a nice outdoor pool and a movie theater in the building. CWE is booming with restaurants and bars. You can walk to Forest Park and the free museums from there. Take an uber over to the Zoo though because that is a LONG walk through what is one of the largest urban parks in the country. The free Art Museum is next door to the zoo. It has a nice cafe in the bottom floor. Also has a nice outdoor sculpture garden. I really recommend.
St Louis has many great restaurants. Head over to Grand Boulevard near Tower Grove Park for good Persian and other international restaurants, many with outdoor seating. If you have a chance, walk through Tower Grove Park. It’s an arboretum and also has a carriage house and other historic structures.
There’s nothing like the parks in St Louis. Also has a massive Botanical Garden where they are building a new visitor center.
You will need longer than a weekend to see everything in St Louis. But 4 or 5 days will cover it, especially if you go to historic St Charles or St Genevieve. Lewis and Clark left from St Charles to explore the west. It has a lot of historic structures that are over 300 years old. It was originally called San Carlos when the Spanish were there and had personnel there. St Genevieve is the oldest French colonial city in America and still has the most French colonial architecture in North America. It’s about 45 minutes to an hour south of St Louis.
Back in St Louis, mid-town is really being built up quickly. The new women’s soccer stadium is going in there which should jumpstart apartments and restaurants nearby. A new food hall, movie theater and apartments has finally opened in midtown in the City Foundry.
Anyone have any hotel recommendations for Milwaukee? I’m thinking I may vacation there this summer.
“That would be like saying Giordano’s is as good as it gets in Chicago. Lol. I guess if you live in some suburb somewhere, then, yeah, a pizza joint trumps the James Beard award nominees in Chicago and St Louis.”
Giordano’s sucks
A JBF Midwest nominee is like being the smartest kid w/ downs syndrome. A Midwest winner would be a mid tier Chicago restaurant.
“For someone who says he went there all the time before COVID, JohnnyU really doesn’t know anything about it. But then, he doesn’t know anything about Chicago either so why am I bothering?”
Because you’re a pathological liar and more than likely inebriated
You should just post a link to Trip advisor for your great inside knowledge
“Back in St Louis, mid-town is really being built up quickly. The new women’s soccer stadium is going in there which should jumpstart apartments and restaurants nearby. A new food hall, movie theater and apartments has finally opened in midtown in the City Foundry.”
LMAO. So after Soulard and Downtown finally take off Midtown is next…
Other than Pappy’s (Best BBQ in StL), Midtown is lame. Its like a Karen’s dream of being hip and urbane
“You will need longer than a weekend to see everything in St Louis. But 4 or 5 days will cover it, especially if you go to historic St Charles or St Genevieve. Lewis and Clark left from St Charles to explore the west. It has a lot of historic structures that are over 300 years old. It was originally called San Carlos when the Spanish were there and had personnel there. St Genevieve is the oldest French colonial city in America and still has the most French colonial architecture in North America. It’s about 45 minutes to an hour south of St Louis.”
Geez why not throw Fast Eddies in the mix
“St Charles … has a lot of historic structures that are over 300 years old”
???
Buildings in St Charles Missouri from before *1720*??
The oldest building in New Orleans is circa 1750.
“LMAO. So after Soulard and Downtown finally take off Midtown is next…”
Soulard took off 10+ years ago. Homes now selling for $400,000 to $500,000 or more there now. Small rowhouses $250k to $350k. But, again, if you have EVER been to St Louis in the last, say, 5 years, you would know this.
Very active and intense homeowners association in Soulard. It not only has the second largest Mardi Gras in the country but it has one of the oldest continuously operating Farmer’s Markets. It has a permanent structure and cool food booths as well as things like live chickens. Lol. I really recommend checking it out, especially on a Saturday (it is open multiple days of the week). This is why you need to visit St Louis for 4 to 5 days. You cannot see everything in just 1 to 2 days. Too many cool things.
Midtown is seeing a lot of development. I never said it was there yet. But it will be in the next 10 years. It was just reported that a developer got a loan for $130 million to convert yet another one of the older warehouse/manufacturing buildings in St Louis into apartments. Over 300 apartments near the new soccer stadium. Like I said, there is a new neighborhood developing there. Lincoln Yards will take a decade to build out in Chicago and so will Midtown in St Louis.
But the bears just harp about how “awful” everything is in in every city in America. Honestly, I don’t think there has ever been a single city the bears on this site have actually liked, or thought was doing well.
How sad.
Because there are amazing things happening all across the urban landscape right now.
By the way, Chicago’s downtown luxury apartment occupancy back up to 94.7% by the end of 2021. The city clearly never “died” and has come roaring back. Rents up 32% and expected to rise another 5% this year.
With rents soaring on Class A apartments, why not buy?
Clearly, people are coming to this conclusion. But it was always going to be thus. Chicago’s housing market always moves from apartments, to condos, to apartments and now we are likely in the early stages of returning to the condo phase. There is NO inventory of affordable condos, downtown or elsewhere, so look for prices to rise as demand rises. Even for 1-bedroom condos. Hooray!
“The oldest building in New Orleans is circa 1750.”
And? What does New Orleans have to do with anything?
Sorry- buildings that are 250 years old. I was off by 50 years on St Charles. St Genevieve is older at 1735 but then they moved the city away from the Mississippi River later after they were flooded out so the structures are a bit newer in the current location.
“Sorry- buildings that are 250 years old. I was off by 50 years on St Charles.”
Everything I find sez that the oldest building in Missouri is the Louis Bolduc house in Ste G, and it dates to 1792 (ie, 230 years old).
“Everything I find sez that the oldest building in Missouri is the Louis Bolduc house in Ste G, and it dates to 1792 (ie, 230 years old).”
St Charles was there before 1792.
“Soulard took off 10+ years ago. Homes now selling for $400,000 to $500,000 or more there now. Small rowhouses $250k to $350k. But, again, if you have EVER been to St Louis in the last, say, 5 years, you would know this.”
If you knew anything about StL or Soulard you’d know that property always sold. The issue is/was always that there is very low appreciation. The buyers looking at Soulard has always been a very small pool of the entire StL market. But please continue, your opinions of a tourist that thinks they’re an expert are fascinating.
“Very active and intense homeowners association in Soulard. It not only has the second largest Mardi Gras in the country but it has one of the oldest continuously operating Farmer’s Markets. It has a permanent structure and cool food booths as well as things like live chickens. Lol. I really recommend checking it out, especially on a Saturday (it is open multiple days of the week). This is why you need to visit St Louis for 4 to 5 days. You cannot see everything in just 1 to 2 days. Too many cool things.”
Nice to see you summarize Tripadvisor & thanks for repeating what I said about Mardi Gras. Soulard has a lot of bars/beer gardens and live music, its defiantly the most fun hood in StL.
“But the bears just harp about how “awful” everything is in in every city in America. Honestly, I don’t think there has ever been a single city the bears on this site have actually liked, or thought was doing well.”
Incorrect. Plenty of major cities that are great.
“Midtown is seeing a lot of development. I never said it was there yet. But it will be in the next 10 years. It was just reported that a developer got a loan for $130 million to convert yet another one of the older warehouse/manufacturing buildings in St Louis into apartments. Over 300 apartments near the new soccer stadium. Like I said, there is a new neighborhood developing there. Lincoln Yards will take a decade to build out in Chicago and so will Midtown in St Louis.”
StL isnt Chicago.
“St Charles was there before 1792.”
But apparently no buildings from before 1792 are still there.
119 McDonough St has claims of both 1791 and 1793, and is now a guest house (owners claim the 1793 date). Booked on weekends until July, so better make your reservation.
“The new women’s soccer stadium is going in there which should jumpstart apartments and restaurants nearby.”
sorry, but LOL
St. Louis is a great place to get murdered…
#1 murder rate per capita for like the last 3 years in a row
https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-city-rankings/cities-with-most-murders
another city right up there is New Orleans… usually top 3…
yeah clearly things have changed in the last 10 years Sabrina…
So sad sonies. I expected more from you. So you come on here and post stupid posts about St Louis and New Orleans murder rates, which has NOTHING to do, whatsoever, with whether the city is a dump as you yourself used to live in Chicago at the time when Trump said it was worse than Afghanistan which was completely absurd.
So I was completely right that you have probably never been to St Louis or New Orleans and if you have it was likely before Hurricane Katrina in 2005. Let me guess: You went for Mardi Gras, got drunk, threw up on Bourbon street, smelled the piss and the throw up, had your wallet stolen (this was before smartphones) and you declared that NOLA was a dump.
Lol.
Let me also guess, the extent of a “visit” to St Louis was at Busch Stadium and the hotel down the street. Never seen Lafayette Square, Soulard, Shaw, or anywhere else.
It would be like going to Sox Park and then nowhere else, right?
I feel bad for you sonies that your life is so narrow. I really recommend going to New Orleans in 2022. Support the restaurants and hotels. Ride a bike to Uptown. Go to the zoo. They have a smaller botanical garden, but it is lovely. Also have a really nice Art Museum that hits above its weight for the size which is right next to the Botanical Gardens.
Visit the Pitot House Museum and then stroll down Esplanade to Cafe Degas, or if you want something cheap, the CC’s Coffee House is cute too just grab a drink.
And I dare you to say it’s a “dump.”
Get out. Explore.
Enjoy America’s great cities. They are coming back strong.
“sorry, but LOL”
Yep. Any professional sports franchise is a big deal for secondary cities. Costing about $500 million to build. Will bring events in the future so it’s a good investment. Reno should be so lucky.
“its defiantly the most fun hood in StL.”
Nope. You haven’t gone in a LOOOOOOOOONG time.
CWE is where it’s at. Simply because they CAN build hundreds of new apartments which is what GenZ wants. And that’s where the new restaurants are because all the Millennials and GenZers are there. They have really been pouring the money into it.
Poor Soulard is stuck being a historic district. They have converted a few buildings into apartments but it’s mostly everything on the outskirts. Otherwise, the action is in the CWE or Clayton. I also thought the restaurants on Grand Boulevard were far better than anything in Soulard. Soulard is like the old part of Wrigley with a few dumpy bars with burgers. Like I said, one high rise built in CWE and another just proposed next to it. Both are game changers for the city and are developing a nice skyline across from Forest Park.
I’ve actually been to St Louis on vacation, remember? I’ve been all over the city. Sorry you have not. But I really urge those who go to go for 4 to 5 days. You can go without a car as ubers are accessible and cheap but having a car is easier to get to some of the attractions because Forest Park is so big it’s hard to get around, especially in the heat. Buses aren’t great. Light rail is okay but I haven’t been on it since the pandemic started so unclear if it’s having the same issues as Chicago’s subway.
Again, I am done having a conversation with someone who hasn’t been to St Louis in years and has never been to most of the city.
“The buyers looking at Soulard has always been a very small pool of the entire StL market. But please continue, your opinions of a tourist that thinks they’re an expert are fascinating.”
Again, completely wrong. If it’s a small subset, it’s because most buyers were priced out and have moved to lovely Benton Park next door years ago. But now, thanks to this incredibly hot housing market, even Benton Park has become the land of $400,000 to $500,000 homes (expensive for St Louis) and those buyers have moved over to Fox Park. Love that area but it, too, is now pricey at over $300,000 and up. If anything is even on the market at all.
There’s a housing boom going on in all of those neighborhoods.
I’ve been inside the houses in these neighborhoods JohnnyU. Have you?
No, of course not. You don’t even know what I’m talking about.
“The new women’s soccer stadium”
Went looking for this, can’t find anything about it. Unless you were talking about the MLS stadium.
But I can’t find anything about STL being in line for a NWSL expansion team.
Also, the $500m is total investment, including office building and practice fields, which ARE all next to each other.
But it’s more than a little bit of a stretch to call something catty-corner from Union Station “Midtown”. Schlafly Brewing will love it tho.
But it’s more than a little bit of a stretch to call something catty-corner from Union Station “Midtown”.
Your post will likely be deleted, like she deleted mine noting that the development she mentioned isn’t in Midtown.
No shame in her game
“Schlafly Brewing will love it tho.”
Ichlafly’s beer is pretty bad. I’m sure Sabrina will rush in and tell me I dont know anything about beer and Schlafly has the best beer and food on the planet…
Would be nice if it resulted in an upgrade to the Union Station hotel. They built that at such an unfortunate time.
And maybe the ‘mall’ can be revitalized for some purpose. “Festival Marketplace” type places saved a lot of buildings in the 80s (some worth saving, others not), but just were never that good an idea in most places.
“Schlafly Brewing will love it tho.”
St Louis has a TON of breweries. Lol. It is part of the renaissance of the city. Lots of entrepreneurs have been opening especially in midtown and downtown west. Have been for a decade.
I’m sorry, the soccer stadium is on the border of Downtown West and Midtown. Midtown has the City Foundry and new apartments but they’ve been converting the warehouse buildings in Downtown West for a decade or more now too like the $130 million conversion that was just announced just 2 blocks from the soccer stadium. The soccer stadium will be a big driver for more development. It already is. (Sorry Sonies. You’re wrong.)
Again, I’m done talking about it with people who are clueless.
St Louis has an amazing food scene with many James Beard nominees. Great ethnic food for a city its size. They are getting a lot of Afghan refugees so I’m sure there will be a lot of really great Afghanistan restaurants, like there are Bosnian from when they were settled in St Louis.
But I’m talking to people who are clueless.
“Would be nice if it resulted in an upgrade to the Union Station hotel. They built that at such an unfortunate time.”
Huh?
You’re talking about St Louis, right?
The Curio has been in Union Station for many years. Pre-pandemic. They did a gorgeous renovation of a historic building. They recently built a huge aquarium, added a Ferris wheel, several new restaurants right as the pandemic hit. But it will hopefully bounce back as the tourists do.
I really wish they would build a new train station that fit the glory and beauty of the city. I’m not asking for the old Union Station type building but anything would be better than what they got which is worse than a bus station.
Lots to be done in St Louis with development. Opportunities for those looking. There’s going to be a new home remodeling show about St Louis on HGTV later this spring. People should check it out to get a flavor of the real estate.
“Went looking for this, can’t find anything about it. Unless you were talking about the MLS stadium.”
It’s Centene Stadium. Under construction anon(tfo). $500 million investment. That’s huge for St Louis. For any city.
It’s in Downtown West. Sorry, I thought it was across the dividing line that heads into Midtown.
Will be a big driver for that part of the city. Already is.
“The Curio has been in Union Station for many years”
Yes, it has.
Have you been in the hotel room corridors and rooms?
Not just the lobby (which is, indeed, quite nice)?
If you haven’t been in the rooms, you don’t know what I’m talking about.
“It’s Centene Stadium.”
Oh, so not a “women’s soccer stadium”.
Guess that’s an easy enough mistake, but I assumed you knew what you were referring to with such specificity.
“St Louis has a TON of breweries. Lol. It is part of the renaissance of the city. Lots of entrepreneurs have been opening especially in midtown and downtown west. Have been for a decade.”
StL has maybe 20 craft breweries. Is that a ton? Or is this another case of “Its just a number”?
So now DTW & Midtown have been redeveloped for a decade?
“I’m sorry, the soccer stadium is on the border of Downtown West and Midtown. Midtown has the City Foundry and new apartments but they’ve been converting the warehouse buildings in Downtown West for a decade or more now too like the $130 million conversion that was just announced just 2 blocks from the soccer stadium. The soccer stadium will be a big driver for more development. It already is. (Sorry Sonies. You’re wrong.)”
Why lie?
The apartment development is almost smack in the middle of DTW
But I forget, you’re an expert on StL
Maybe tell us who has the best senior discount or where the best blue plate specials are in the city. Possibly you can do that without screwing up
“Oh, so not a “women’s soccer stadium”.
Guess that’s an easy enough mistake, but I assumed you knew what you were referring to with such specificity.”
Due to Sabrina deeming it so, the city has decided to make it a womens only soccer stadium. The men will play at SLU or WashU
So the StL expert has written, so it shall be done
“StL has maybe 20 craft breweries.”
Ton or not, how many of them have a brewpub basically across the street from any part of the soccer stadium project?
Pretty sure the answer is one.
And, of course, any ‘live’ use of that area beats the hell out of surface parking and half mile long ramps to 64 that had been there for decades.
“Ton or not, how many of them have a brewpub basically across the street from any part of the soccer stadium project?”
Are you talking Schlafly’s? The one thats been there for 20+ years?
At least theres and Imo’s thats closer, someone can get their provell fix
Re: breweries. Don’t get me wrong – I enjoy good beer, and I’m glad we have a great place in our neighborhood (beer-wise they’ve probably forgotten about more awards that they’ve won than most places will ever be nominated for, and has decent food). But aren’t we about 20 years past where brewery numbers are a measure of an area’s hype/renewal?
“I feel bad for you sonies that your life is so narrow. I really recommend going to New Orleans in 2022.”
I think if I lived in Reno, I would have to have grown bored with long-weekend trips to Vancouver or San Diego and at least a couple dozen spots in between, before I said, “that’s it, this whole coast and the mountains and desert suck, I need some gumbo!” That said, I’ve never been to New Orleans, and would like to visit it (though not necessarily in 2022).
“Are you talking Schlafly’s? The one thats been there for 20+ years?”
Yes, I’m still talking about it, bc we’re still talking about the stadium and area.
“aren’t we about 20 years past where brewery numbers are a measure of an area’s hype/renewal?”
Apparently the kids still use it as a yardstick. Or so I hear.
“Apparently the kids still use it as a yardstick. Or so I hear.”
StL is about 20 years behind the curve
“But aren’t we about 20 years past where brewery numbers are a measure of an area’s hype/renewal?”
Yes. Especially in St Louis which has an extensive brewery scene.
BUT- when you hear news that Guiness is opening in your neighborhood, I think you can assume that it IS a measure of the area’s hype.
“StL has maybe 20 craft breweries. Is that a ton? Or is this another case of “Its just a number”?”
In a city of that size? Hell yeah.
St Louis is small. Tiny. How many does San Antonio have? Same German heritage and history of beer. But I’m thinking St Louis probably wins and it’s a fraction of the size.
“ In a city of that size? Hell yeah.
St Louis is small. Tiny. How many does San Antonio have? Same German heritage and history of beer. But I’m thinking St Louis probably wins and it’s a fraction of the size.”
You’d be wrong as usual
“ Yes. Especially in St Louis which has an extensive brewery scene.
BUT- when you hear news that Guiness is opening in your neighborhood, I think you can assume that it IS a measure of the area’s hype.”
Except it doesn’t
Guiness? Lol. Ok boomer
“BUT- when you hear news that Guiness is opening in your neighborhood, I think you can assume that it IS a measure of the area’s hype.”
What??? I doubt that’s even a thing in Ireland (maybe for tourists?). Does it come with the great Irish food too? (Spare me the donnybrook – my 3/17s were spent at the S. Buffalo Irish center and let me tell you, nobody is lining up for that.)
At my neighborhood joint, “Stout Month” is February. We typically cease our weekly dinners there for that month, because there’s a line that extends well outside of the building, every day, starting at about 3 pm. They produce a few special stouts, and host several others from breweries in the region and nationally that are contenders for the “best” stouts going. Many if not most of the fanatics who go may have gotten their start on Guiness, but I doubt they continue to buy it. Again, this is 2022, not the 90s.
Are you SURE JohnnyU?
If only you actually lived in Chicago, you might actually know what is going on here.
Lol.
This is huge for that part of Fulton Market. In the old Pennsylvania Railroad Terminal building. Developer may build a 400 unit apartment building next door.
But nah- Guinness coming in doesn’t mean anything.
https://chicago.eater.com/2021/9/21/22685972/guinness-taproom-chicago-restaurant-fulton-market
The rumors have swirled since spring, but Guinness — the makers of the Irish super stout — have officially announced they’re opening a taproom in Chicago’s Fulton Market neighborhood. No, the brewery won’t make that famous thick and dark stout in Chicago (Guinness will continue to import that from Ireland). But the 15,000 square-foot venue will contain a full-service restaurant with room for 300 — including outdoor seating — inside the long-vacated Pennsylvania Railroad Depot, north of Randolph Restaurant Row and west of Halsted.
The Fulton Market space will become Guinness’s second taproom in America. Owned by Diageo, a multinational company headquartered in London, Guinness opened a Baltimore facility in 2018, where it makes exclusive beers. Expect the same at the venue the brewery is calling, for now, the Guinness Chicago Taproom. There’s a modest 10-barrel system that will produce beers only available at the taproom. Ownership isn’t sure if they’ll bottle or can beers onsite to take home, but to-go beers will available in some fashion.
Also, while we’re speaking about beverages, the old Zed in River North is being replaced by a new winery called Chicago Winery which will actually make wines. Will have a restaurant, be a wedding venue and also do tours of the winery. It’s a big building and has been vacant the last 2 years.
This is what Michigan Avenue needs more of but you need a lot of brand firepower to afford those rents. But this is the kind of “experience” that would work well on Michigan Avenue. But this location is on Clark, away from the bustle of the Mag Mile.
“ At my neighborhood joint, “Stout Month” is February. We typically cease our weekly dinners there for that month, because there’s a line that extends well outside of the building, every day, starting at about 3 pm. They produce a few special stouts, and host several others from breweries in the region and nationally that are contenders for the “best” stouts going. Many if not most of the fanatics who go may have gotten their start on Guiness, but I doubt they continue to buy it. Again, this is 2022, not the 90s.”
Yep.
BA Russian Imperials are where it’s at.
The olds are going to stick to the guiness
“ If only you actually lived in Chicago, you might actually know what is going on here.
Lol.”
I should have qualified it to it’s no big deal to anyone under 60
Wait what? I thought we were talking about StL? Now you’re bringing up FM for some unknown reason. Switching from boxed wine to Guinness hasn’t helped your cognitive skills.
“ But nah- Guinness coming in doesn’t mean anything to anyone under the age of 60.
FIFY
Actual footage of Sabrina at the Guinness taproom – https://media.giphy.com/media/1Qdp4trljSkY8/giphy.gif
“St Louis is small. Tiny. How many does San Antonio have”
STL MSA = 2,820,253
SA MSA = 2,558,143
STL Breweries (per: stlbeer DOT org/breweries/ and taking out multiple locations) = 69, 20 with city addresses
SA Breweries (per: sabeerweek DOT org/brewery-map) = 34, 21 with city addresses
“STL Breweries (per: stlbeer DOT org/breweries/ and taking out multiple locations) = 69, 20 with city addresses
SA Breweries (per: sabeerweek DOT org/brewery-map) = 34, 21 with city addresses”
I guess Sabrina’s technically correct San Antonio is a fraction of StL. 21/20 to be precise
And before Sabrina goes all Karen, I don’t think Places like Rolla & Murfeesboro, Il are in the MSA
“when you hear news that Guiness is opening in your neighborhood, I think you can assume that it IS a measure of the area’s hype.”
“The Fulton Market space will become Guinness’s second taproom in America.”
Soooo, everyone knows where the first one in America is, right?
Definitely the hippest of hip locations. Hype City!
“San Antonio is a fraction of StL”
Oh, you’re falling into the trap…
STL pop = 292,047 (yes, well below the 1870 pop)
SA pop = 1,579,504
So SA should have 5x more!
Of course:
STL land area = 62 sqmi
SA land area = 461 sqmi
STL COUNTY (which excludes STL) land area = 508
“don’t think Places like Rolla & Murfeesboro, Il are in the MSA”
I mean, if Rolla counts for STL, then Austin should count for SA, right?
“So SA should have 5x more!”
No because StL is super awesome. No one has more or better quality.
Sabrina said so, so it has to be true
“I mean, if Rolla counts for STL, then Austin should count for SA, right?”
Why not? I’m kinda shocked Sabrina didnt include a Tripadvisor report for the awesomeness that is Rolla, Mo
“St Louis has an amazing food scene with many James Beard nominees.”
Yeah they really cleaned up this year.
Since Milwaukee has 3 finalist this year for Best Chef (StL = Zero), what rating would you give them?
“Yeah they really cleaned up this year.”
The winners haven’t been announced for this year yet. Just the nominees are out. James Beard Awards are returning to Chicago again this spring.
“The winners haven’t been announced for this year yet. Just the nominees are out.”
Correct, and here’s the list of nominees for the region including Missouri:
Dane Baldwin, The Diplomat, Milwaukee
Karen Bell, Bavette La Boucherie, Milwaukee
Jorge Guzmán, Petite León, Minneapolis
Gregory León, Amilinda, Milwaukee
Sean Sherman, Owamni, Minneapolis
Yia Vang, Union Hmong Kitchen, Minneapolis