Get the Original Mies Van Der Rohe Kitchen and Baths: 860 N. Lake Shore Drive in the Gold Coast
This 3-bedroom in the Mies Van Der Rohe high rise at 860 N. Lake Shore Drive in the Gold Coast has been on the market since March 2011.
(Is this picture of 910 N LSD or 860 N LSD? I can’t tell.)
This building is the co-op building (the other one is the condo building.)
The unit has a southeast corner exposure with lake and treetop views.
The listing says the kitchen is the original St. Charles kitchen and the baths appear to be the original tile work as well.
The unit is carpeted.
There is no central air- only wall units.
There is no in-unit washer/dryer.
In this building you can purchase parking for an additional $60,000 (in the other building I believe it is rental parking.)
The unit has been reduced $20,000 since March.
What is a Mies fan willing to pay for an original condition unit?
Andrea Tucker at Koenig & Strey Real Living has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #3M: 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1600 square feet
- I couldn’t find a prior purchase price (since it’s a co-op)
- Originally listed in March 2011 for $420,000
- Reduced
- Currently listed for $399,000 (parking is $60,000)
- Assessments of $1768 a month (includes heat, a/c, electric, doorman, cable)
- Taxes of $2879
- No central air- wall units only
- No in-unit washer/dryer
- Bedroom #1: 17×11
- Bedroom #2: 12×9
- Bedroom #3: 14×11
Sabrina: your photo looks like 900 N. LSD. 860 and 880 have undergone a ton of work, which is reflected in the monthly assessment. Taxes are low due to historic designation (not sure how long this lasts). This coop did a nice job with finances by decreasing the taxes and using the savings to fund the renovations with higher assessments. 900 and 910 are well run buildings with good reserves.
When I looked for my first in-town in 2001, I was very interested in this building – however, the things that totally turned me off were:
1. frigid breezes off of the lake in the winter makes it brutal for 6-8 months/year
2. no in-unit washer/dryer
3. ridiculously high assessments for no extra amenities.
There are much better choices out there.
Agreed with Clio. Looked at multiple units with my family here in the past. A few units are beautifully updated but the building and hallways have a rundown feel..assessments are insane.
Ditto on assessments. Also this is too low of floor for my taste.
The assessments are because it’s co-op right? Still, way too high for me. And I’m not sure the ‘historic’ kitchen and lake views are worth $100,000 more than unit 3J which has also has a lower assessment and a cheaper parking space, but appears to still have the original bathrooms.
I would love to get my hands on a set of financials for a co-op. Never understood why the assessments are so high unless you’re looking at a vintage building.
I am looking for a 3 bedroom without these crazy high assessments. What kind of people pay this kind of assessment? Who are you? Identify yourself!
“Never understood why the assessments are so high unless you’re looking at a vintage building.”
Gary- I couldn’t imagine the cost of having to replace all of those windows (which must be done at some point as the building was built in 1951.) Maybe they’ve already done it- I don’t know.
It’s also right on the lake. Won’t there simply be more building maintenance issues due to the driving winds coming off the lake all winter (and what that will do to a building?)
Thanks dd. I couldn’t remember which building that was a picture of- and they all look the same. But people get the general gist of what 860 N LSD looks like as well.
These are the kind of people who would live in this building –
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-14/high-income-no-tax-returns-almost-doubled-in-2008-irs-says.html
Probably seniors with no W-2 income, who live off municipal bonds.
My friend lives in this building. He paid cash 20 years ago, so the assessments don’t seem high to him even though I find them crazy. My friend owns his parking space, but they still have the nerve to charge a fee of over $100 a month to “maintain” it (the parking attendants are really creepy, especially the guy who tried to back me into a corner and hit on me).
I believe the assessments include tax even though they are listed separately on this listing. They also include electric, heat (radiant floor heat), and cable. The building was hit with a special assessment a couple years ago and my friend had to pay $40,000. I suppose the building has been fixed up now.
BB, I know a couple, retired faculty of Uchicago that live in a vintage building in Hyde Park and pay 2K assessment on their unit. The place is this gorgeous huge vintage 2-story apartment but man 2K is a lot. They were telling me they are thinking of down sizing and getting something with less crazy assessment.
Old buildings always have high monthly assessments. The upkeep on these buildings is not cheap.
Sorry would do a walk-up in Lincoln Park ANYDAY over these crazy hi-rise assessments. That too is coming from someone who love modern and Mies. I can NEVER own a hi-rise b/c I would never feel right paying the assessments.
this is the thing, 900-910 are pretty similar but are codos. you would think that the assessments plus taxes would be comparable. but they are not. 860-880 come out a good bit higher. i think there is some slippage in there with the whole co-op concept. like gary says it should be pretty easy to look at the books and see where the cash is going.
MM, I guess it always is a lot to live in the sky. I need to either become, or marry, a millionaire.
“I couldn’t imagine the cost of having to replace all of those windows (which must be done at some point as the building was built in 1951.) Maybe they’ve already done it- I don’t know.
It’s also right on the lake. Won’t there simply be more building maintenance issues due to the driving winds coming off the lake all winter (and what that will do to a building?)”
Well, it seems like on average co-ops have higher assessments than condos of the same type – even after taking the possible inclusion of taxes out. And the old brick/stone/concrete buildings seem to have higher assessments for obvious reasons regardless of condo/ co-op. But I don’t understand why a building like this would have such high assessments. I’m dying to get my hands on financials.
I’ve dealt with plenty of co-ops. All else being equal, the higher co-op fees are almost always due to an underlying mortgage on the building.
Here is the breakdown of the $1766/month for this unit from the listing agent:
ASSESSMENT: $880; BLDG MORTAGE: $299; MONTHLY REAL ESTATE TAXES: $278; ALL UTILITIES INCL ELECTRIC, CABLE, HEAT & A/C: $309
A rough calculation puts this unit’s value at about $70k less than an equivalent condo in order to reflect its share of the underlying mortgage.
$880 “assessment” doesn’t include utilities… that seems different too?
also are condos not as able to get underlying bldg mortgages? ie if this were a condo and had that big rehab project, it would have been financed with a one time special assessment?
Sabrina,
It has already been answered, but the photo is of 900 N. The 860 pair and the north building of the 900 pair all have the same floor plate size – a short rectangle; almost a square. This is a long rectangle and there is only one of them.
Also, you can tell the two complexes apart by looking at the windows. The window frames of the 900 pair are either anodized aluminum or natural steel. Not sure, but they match the exterior of the building. The 860 pair have natural aluminum window frames which contrast with the building exterior. Lastly, the 860 pair have windows that are easier to see into from outside. I am not sure if they are less reflective than the 900 pair or if the 900 pair are slightly tinted. But the difference is striking and very noticeable.
“$880 “assessment” doesn’t include utilities… that seems different too?”
Think of it as $1,189/month with utilities. Reporting the breakdown is helpful for comparison. It would be great if all listings included it.
“also are condos not as able to get underlying bldg mortgages?”
The co-op corportion owns the building, so they can mortgage it. A condo association owns nothing, so no mortgage is available. If they borrow, it will typically require an assignment to the lender of all rights pertaining to the special assessment created to pay for it.
If a co-op defaults on an underlying mortgage, the lender can seize the building and cancel all proprietary leases. Co-op unit owners become renters (or are evicted) and still owe their individual lenders what they borrowed. If a condo association loan defaults, the lender has the right to lien and foreclose the individual units.
A lot of little building things also add up too. For instance, in this building, a building worker literally goes to each apartment to collect the trash as they do not have chutes or a communal trash collection area.
As an owner in this complex let me try and clear up a few things:
1. Part of the desire to own here is to be part of preserving one of architecture’s significant landmarks. These were the first Mies van der Rohe glass and steel high rises and are known the world over. On any given day you can find students and architecture enthusiasts photographing the complex.
2. Assessments include property taxes and all utilities (including tv cable — not internet). Are they high? Yes, but the relative prices of the units are below what they really should be — especially for east-facing units with SPECTACULAR lake views (and front row seats for twice weekly fireworks).
3. The buildings just went through a $9 million restoration You can read about it here: http://www.dezeen.com/2010/03/02/860-880-lake-shore-drive-refurbishment-by-krueck-sexton/
4. The “special” assessment that was referred to above was an owner choosing to pay in full their portion of the mortgage that was taken to fund the restoration.
If you’ve never had the opportunity, please visit the buildings and stand in the plaza between the two structures. Take it in. If you don’t feel the genius of Mies while you’re standing there then you will never understand what the appeal is.
Yes, the unit featured needs updating. No, these buildings will never have the latest and greatest amenities. The hallways will always be narrow, there will never be garbage chutes (but no, the engineers do NOT go unit-to-unit. But there are people who want the latest and greatest and there are others who enjoy living in a landmark. The good news is that there is room for everyone.
We gutted our one bedroom in 880 and modernized it. Take a look at a few of the other available units in 880 that have been updated and see how well a 60 year old building can hold its own. Here’s one: http://www.chicagotopcondos.com/?q=07645204 I’d like to think that we did ours as well (with the upside of an east view.)
I don’t think I have ever seen a breakdown in this detail of an assessment. I didn’t even bother to check. Sometimes they’ll indicate whether or not the taxes are included. (BTW, I’ve seen listings in the same building with and without the taxes included – very confusing) Kudos to the listing agent in this case.
I’ve always wondered if a building mortgage is the culprit but when I’ve asked co-op owners if there is a mortgage on their building I will tell you that most don’t know one way or the other.
“For instance, in this building, a building worker literally goes to each apartment to collect the trash as they do not have chutes or a communal trash collection area.”
You call every time you have trash (e.g. a pizza box) or there are scheduled pickup times and you have to wait for (and better not miss) those? Sonies is not going to be happy.
how in the hell could they build such an architecturally significant building and forget something as simple as a trash chute!!!
wtf!
Not a fan of Mies Van Der Rohe but let me tell you admitting as much is a _great way_ to start a flame war on architecture forums like skyscraperpage and skyscrapercity!
I had people ready with pitchforks when I said I thought the NW Women’s Prentice Hospital was fugly as sin and I hope they do demolish it.
“I had people ready with pitchforks when I said I thought the NW Women’s Prentice Hospital was fugly as sin and I hope they do demolish it.”
Add me to the pitchfork crew.
I agree bob that building is ugly as shit… I do like this style like 860 n. LSD, 900 N. LSD, and the IBM building, CNA, etc…
Clio – Some units have W/D, but you’re right, most do not.
Jenny – Sorry, but these buildings have never had a special assessment. Your friend may have have elected to pre-pay the proportional share of the building mortgage, but that was voluntary.
Sonies – Who needs a trash chute when you have a valet closet right off the kitchen and your garbage can is emptied every night? Of course you pay for that in the assessment…
“Who needs a trash chute when you have a valet closet right off the kitchen and your garbage can is emptied every night?”
Speaking from experience, all great until the dogs want their walk when the valet is collecting all that lovely garbage in the freight elevator.
Speaking from experience, it’s a dog-free building.
“Not a fan of Mies Van Der Rohe but let me tell you admitting as much is a _great way_ to start a flame war on architecture forums like skyscraperpage and skyscrapercity!”
I’m glad that someone said it. The emperor has no clothes in my opinion. I think his buildings are boring – at least the ones I’m familiar with. Never understood the big deal.
“Speaking from experience, it’s a dog-free building.”
Problem solved.
I’m still laughing about the “original Mies kitchen and bath (kept for integrity)!” A ten year old kitchen in vintage is hideous, awful, horrible! but an original (read: older) Mies is something worth cherishing.
Try that with anything original in a non-Mies big boxscraper.
Hilarious. I’ll never get anyone — anyone! — who goes “It’s a Mies!” To me, they’re little more than gigando 4+1s with floor-to-ceiling windows. There’s nothing wrong with that; but there sure as heck ain’t anything special about it either.
“As an owner in this complex let me try and clear up a few things:”
Thanks for the inside info weekender. We appreciate hearing from someone who lives in the building.
This building had major structural damage to the garage. I don’t know about the original building mortgage, but they did charge a $40,000 fee for his 2/2 (same size as this one, higher floor). He said they were offering low cost loans to cover it, but chose to pay it all at once.
…come to think of it, what is the difference between a special assessment and taking out a mortgage on the building to pay for repairs? To me, it would be the same difference, although legally different. I don’t see how either is better/worse than the other.
“what is the difference between a special assessment and taking out a mortgage on the building to pay for repairs?”
Economically they are the same. However, in our consumption based society tons of people don’t have the cash to pay a lump sum special assessment.
Thanks Gary – I thought condo owners with special assessments were also given the financing option. I can’t imagine most people having $40,000 just laying around. Maybe they have to take second loans against on their condo (although, I suppose people aren’t guaranteed to receive those loans)?
I’m an owner at 860/880. The 2 buildings have the same sq footage per floor. 860 has four 3 bedroom units per floor while 880 has eight 1 bedroom units per floor. Many units have been combined. There are a least 12 half floor units.
The cost of the $9 million renovation project now completed was partially off set by a tax freeze granted by the Illinois Historic Preservation Agency available to owners of landmark properties. The freeze began in 2009 and is good for 8 years. The subsequent 3 years will see a gradual increase to the then curret assessment amount.
Window replacement will not happen anytime soon as the windows cannot be altered due to landmark status.
This is a full-service building. There are 2 sets of doormen 24/7, 3 office workers, maintenance men and engineers. There is always a maintenance man on duty 24/7. Packages are delivered to your unit. All plumbing and electrical issues are fixed at no charge. No—your garbage is not picked up at your door. You place it in trash bins located on your floor and it is subsequently picked up by maintenance staff. You are not charged every time a maintenance man enters your unit like you are in many condos.
Per our 2010 financials:
Payroll is 25% of total costs
Real Estate Tax is 17%
Utilities is 18%
Mortgage interest is 12%
The monthly fee for my one bedroom is $1000 and covers everything except phone and internet. I consider this a reasonable price to pay to live in a full service building with landmark status. Additionally I receive a refund for the homeowners tax exemrtion each year. It was worth jumping through a few extra hoops such as obtaining letters of recommendation, submitting a financial statement, and an interview with a board member in order to buy a unit. These procedures help to keep out the deadbeats and other irresponsible and obnoxious types.
You do not have to buy a garage space. You can park for a $250 monthly fee. One of the reasons that I live here is that you don’t need a car. You can walk to about everything. The 157 bus is at your door. Or walk to Mich Ave where you rarely have to wait for a bus. This neighboorhood is wonderful. It is like a quiet island in the heart of the city. This is easy living.
Thanks David! I certainly would rather do some work myself and save $1550 a month in assessments to not pay for 2 doormen, 3 office workers, maintenance men and engineers! I can do simple plumbing and electrical myself and I can carry my trash all the way down to the dumpster, but I also understand where others would find this useful. $1768/month is essentially my mortgage however for a larger 3 bed/3 bath with assessments of only $200 or so.
curious, what is the extent of things a maintenance man will do for you because if its to fix a runny toilet or change my light bulbs… i’d rather dump my own trash down my chute, open my own doors, pickup my own packages and change my own light bulbs for 4800 a year or 400 a month… but whatever, to each his own
“i’d rather dump my own trash down my chute, open my own doors, pickup my own packages and change my own light bulbs for 4800 a year or 400 a month… but whatever, to each his own”
This is an _excellent_ word of caution to those considering buying into a condo. If, say, the majority of other condo owners are older and on fixed incomes, they might be more willing to pay for such things. And you’re stuck along for the ride.
I know someone trapped in a highrise who is able enough to do basic maintenance, but they’re stuck paying for it anyway.
benjamon9; aren’t you paying real estate taxes? the monthly assessment at 860/880 includes real estate taxes as welll as all utilities. What does your $200 include? i did a study comparing monthly assessments between condo highrises and co-op highrises and operationally the monthly costs and assessments are equal. that includes taxes, utilities and operational costs.
David, yes our assessments don’t cover much, but if you add taxes and utilities I’m still no where near $1800/month. My guess as to the difference is that buildings like this are paying several people salaries and our small association has no employees. I just agree with Sonies on this, and that is part of why I wouldn’t be in a full service building. I wouldn’t want to pay for it.
Thanks David R for the detailed info.
“I know someone trapped in a highrise who is able enough to do basic maintenance, but they’re stuck paying for it anyway.”
Did this change after they moved in? Otherwise, hard to complain too much. Some people want full service and should live in them. Paying for service calls would seem like a better solution but people value not having to pay per item in ways that are not fully rational. E.g., vast majority of people that used to pay for unlimited local landline phone would have been better off paying on a metered basis, but (presumably) liked the unlimited aspect.
the women folk value the doormen more. sounds pornish but my point is they like the safety doormen provide.
“Did this change after they moved in? Otherwise, hard to complain too much. ”
Its my understanding that they didn’t. The person I know did not do a lot of due diligence before buying (at the peak, too).