Historic Gold Coast 2-Bedroom Reduces $2.65 Million Over 3 Years: 1500 N. Astor Street
This full floor 2-bedroom at 1500 N. Astor Street in the historic Patterson-McCormick Mansion has been on the market since September 2008.
In that time, it has been reduced to $2.85 million from $5.5 million.
Built in 1893, the unit has 4 wood burning fireplaces, all with their original detailed mantels, and 12-foot ceilings.
There is a wood paneled living room as well as an oak panel David Adler dining room with walnut herringbone floors.
The kitchen has granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances.
It has 2 terraces, including one that measures 22×11.
The unit has central air, washer/dryer in the unit and parking.
Nearly 3 years later, what will it take to sell this unit?
Marla Nyberg at Koenig & Strey Real Living has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #6: 2 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, 3700 square feet, parking
- Sold in March 2002 for $2.95 million
- Originally listed in September 2008 for $5.5 million
- Reduced several times
- Was listed in June 2011 for $3.55 million
- Reduced
- Currently listed for $2.85 million
- Assessments of $2227 a month
- Taxes of $20,474
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- 4 wood burning fireplaces
- Bedroom #1: 18×20
- Bedroom #2: 16×17
- Library: 20×12
What was the seller thinking when they listed a 2 bedroom for over $5 million, with these ridiculous assessments and taxes? Even the current price sounds way too high to me, but I haven’t looked at the unit yet. Maybe it’s spectacular.
Yea, this is spectacular.
The place looks great. I have no idea what it should cost but lol at 5.5mil to 2.8 reduction. I wonder what the seller is on.
This is the same building as the Billy Corgan (sp? Smashing Pumpkins) sale, right? We looked at this last fall. It really is spectacular. My dream home, but still tough to swallow for only a 2 bedroom.
3700 square feet? If that isn’t counting the terraces & is anywhere close to accurate, this is equivalent to more than two typical larger 3 BR units. I don’t understand where the space is however–adding the LR, DR, 2 BRs, library & kitchen gets it almost to 2000 (yes–these are all very spacious). But could hallways & 2.5 baths & closets total anywhere close to 1700 square feet??
The place is gorgeous though. Also, for many wealthy empty nesters, there may be an advantage to not having spare bedrooms (guests can stay at the Drake!), and have a huge apartment without several unused bedrooms.
Most of the rooms are amazing, and if you want more bedrooms I am sure with 3700 sq. ft. there must be a way to add an extra one.
Gorgeous and priced exactly right. This is a one-of-a-kind place I wish I could afford.
The parquet pattern is not herringbone, but “Parquet de Versailles”, because this pattern originated there in the 18th century. A floor like this will set you back much, much more than even a herringbone parquet.
Nice small, intimate complex and huge, beautiful rooms with exceptional details.
I dropped my monacle in my champagne glass when I saw that pathetic kitchen
“but still tough to swallow for only a 2 bedroom.”
a 3,700sqft 2 bedroom
Gorgeous. I have no idea if the current asking price is on the mark, but this place is almost perfect.
This is a beautiful home with gracious rooms/ a spectacular preservation IMO. Anyone who would want to carve up into more bedrooms should look elsewhere (many sinle family homes nearby for sale). I think the price is getting closer to what a buyer for this type of property would consider for Chicago in this market. And Laura is quite correct on the floors.
Laura when you say the price is right, is it because you are in love with it or you actually think this is the market value supported by comps?
Spectacular it is (I’ve looked at the photos). But that kitchen looks smaller than mine!
I agree with those who note that despite it being only 2 BR, there’s plenty of space. Maybe I got hung up on the number of bedrooms. Still think this is a lot to spend on a condo.
I don’t know Dan2. It is for a wealthy person and not everyone needs many rooms. Think of a rich couple whose kids have moved out. I think this is lovely.
Miumiu,
I think you’re right.
I think this place is perfect as is in terms of bedrooms. This is the type of place that is all about luxurious living and having two huge bedrooms is probably more important to this type of buyer than 4 small bedrooms.
This IS Billy Corgan’s unit.
Other than the lobby photo, all the furniture has been photoshopped into the photos. I wonder if the proportions are really correct.
It looks weird.
“Nearly 3 years later, what will it take to sell this unit?”
Try, try, try…
I am waiting for anon to comment on fridge/oven placmenet
Floorplan:
http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2011/07/22/check-out-the-floorplan-of-billy-corgans-gold-coast-condo.php
I believe Billy Corgan also owns a lakefront home in Highland Park.
LOL. I was thinking the same thing, how does a place so otherwise classy end up with that dumpy little kitchen?
“I dropped my monacle in my champagne glass when I saw that pathetic kitchen”
I guess when you’re a rockstar you call the caterer 🙂
Billy Corgan is too overcome with ennui to cook. He’s busy standing forlornly on the terrace, staring moodily into the black hole of nothingness that is his soul.
I don’t find the kitchen out of line. This is not a family home requiring a family kitchen where kids can have a quick breakfast before going to school.
“I am waiting for anon to comment on fridge/oven placmenet”
Aggressively stupid.
“I guess when you’re a rockstar you call the caterer”
Not enough space for the caterer to prep/cook in there.
The inside word is that despite all his rage, seller is still just a rat in the cage.
(Sorry couldn’t resist the easy dunk.)
I like the tiny kitchen, tucked away from the rest of the house.
I’m not sure how the listing reads, but isn’t it misleading to call the dining room a library? I mean, it could be used for either function, but at least admit that if you make it into a library, there is nowhere in this place to eat (unless you stand at the counter of that tiny kitchen).
Or maybe I’m reading the floor plan incorrectly.
“Not enough space for the caterer to prep/cook in there.”
fine I guess you eat at Gibson’s every night then
yeah jenny, we get it you don’t like to cook, you must be a REAL catch
muimui, I believe the market is well-supported by comparables… if you can find a comparable to this unique unit. That is rather difficult because other places in that price range in that neighborhood might have more rooms, but no more space, and nowhere near such great architecture or such beautiful details. Or they might have FEWER rooms but even more lavish details and unique features.
What I usually see in this range in the GC is a 3 or 4 bed 3 bath, but with much more standard features. Many of the highrise vintage units in this range are just slightly better versions of extremely similar units up the road in Lakeview that can be had for a fraction the cost. Given a choice between a 2 bed 2 bath 1600 sq ft simplex at 1242 N Lake Shore vs a comparable at 3800 N Lake Shore for about $200K less, I’d take 3800 because you have an apartment that is only slightly less beautiful for substantially less money, in a neighborhood only slightly less prime.
But this place is one of a kind and would be one of a kind anywhere.
Uniqueness means a lot, and so do really beautiful details and finishes. That parquet floor, as I’ve already mentioned, is really, really exceptional.. many steps above the typical pretty herringbone. The rooms are much larger ,and the materials many cuts above the ordinary 4 bed 3 bath “luxury” vintage condo for the same price. And many buyers will pay a substantial premium for such a place in such a really beautiful, exceptional small building.
Eight months ago I purchased a good number of unsold units in a couple of new construction, Miami high rises during close out sales from the developers. We are currently in the midst of combining two top floor units (discounted a whopping 60%) for a full floor penthouse.
If all goes according to the sale plan we agreed upon and I am able to unload it without delay, I would not at all hesitate to buy this unit with the proceeds from that sale.
I LOVE it and the excitement I am feeling right now is intense!!! It reminds me so much of many NYC townhouses and UES units with the craftsmanship and one of a kind vintage details…it would be so hard to have to pass on owning this unit.
I just have to have this place. NO doubt about it. I think I am going to talk to my grands to see if they want to come along to give me their insight about the period details. Their UES Triplex in a very well known building is so similar to the interior shots in the listing… it’s truly amazing!
Their combined knowledge of this period of architecture is unbelievable and they can def shine some light on each and every aspect of this building.
While I have sworn off historic older buildings, this is a very unique, rare and well maintained unit which (after all the RE mess is undercontrol) will only regain it’s original value. In the right hands, it will last forever.
I am shocked that: #1, this has slid under my radar (but I have not kept as close a watch on the Chicago RE market) and #2: no one has already bought this place for the sheer beauty and uniqueness….esp after that major price chop.
Luckily there are not that many investors left at this level who have the desire to do so. After the initial sale so much care, time and money will be needed to keep it in perfect state of repair. That is one thing that has always distracted me away from older homes…the maintenance and cost involved. It is usually double that of new construction units.
I have walked down these streets so many times and I was always somehow drawn to the building. I always wondered how the interiors were set up and if the original details were still in place. Now that I have seen the listing here and on Curbedchicago…I want it so bad!!!
I would not change a thing about it…well a fresh coat of period influenced paint, some outstanding rugs and all of the period antiques I have in storage would be all it would take to make me feel right at home. It would be back to it’s orginal splendor in a couple of months.
I just hope no one shows interest in it over the next month. The Miami penthouse combo is close to receiving the final inspection and I have a few couples to whom I have promised first chance at the sale of the outstanding combination.
I have always made it a point of avoiding being RE rich and cash poor and one wrong move like this would be a difficulty for me. Something I do not want in this present day RE mess.
This beauty just might change my mind…
God damn it, westie, why do you do this to me?!! You know my personality – now I am tempted to buy this just to spite you!!!
I think the unit will see for around 2 million – anyone who pays more for it in this market is an idiot.
“I think the unit will see for around 2 million – anyone who pays more for it in this market is an idiot.”
I say it sells for asking, esp after the price chops.
If it were a new(er) construction reproduction, then yes, maybe under $2 mil. But for an original unit in this condition an upper level buyer will buy it…and NOT be an idiot.
The thing is- there are plenty of other similar properties on the market in the immediate vicinity either priced close to this one or even less- including Nate Berkus’ place which was just reduced as well. That property also has parking- but not the outdoor space.
It doesn’t have the grandeur of 1500 n astor (in my opinion) but it DOES have 3 bedrooms and 4 baths.
Now listed at $2.15 million and STILL not selling.
http://www.coldwellbankeronline.com/ID/1956609
Seems to me that Gold Coast prices are dropping pretty rapidly- even at the upper price point. Very few sales of these gorgeous vintage properties. There are just too many of them and not enough buyers.
I think this place completely blows away that Nate Berkus place sabrina, but thats just my opinion
Sonies- I don’t disagree that 1500 N. Astor has the paneling and more of the vintage features.
But it is also a 2-bedroom. Many buyers looking in this price range will want more bedrooms and baths. At least with Nate Berkus’ place- you get that AND it’s cheaper.
My point was- very few of these are selling.
We’re having chaos in the world’s stock markets again. I’m predicting the upper bracket is going to go very, very soft again until at least next spring due to all the uncertainty. Whither the stock market, whither upper end real estate.
gotta agree with sonies on this one. berkus’ place is not close to the same league as this one — the number of br/ba doesn’t even enter into it. i would struggle to come up with something comparable, and would love for somebody to point one out.
While I confess I know little about the Smashing Pumpkin’s music, nor do I care to learn, I find it amusing that when given enough money, even a counter-cultural looking/sounding artist runs straight to the establishment to define his new wealth. Places like this are templates of an old monied class, and are poorly replicated in the countless McMansion failures that litter the city; no sheet metal fire boxes here. Where’s the movie theater Jada? This is what *taste* with wealth looks/looked like, even for a rock star.
haha, a friend of mine saw this and said “that is NOT the way a rocker’s supposed to live!”
rocker…. maybe arteest?
We’re having chaos in the world’s stock markets again. I’m predicting the upper bracket is going to go very, very soft again until at least next spring due to all the uncertainty. Whither the stock market, whither upper end real estate.
Sabrina, I totally agree. Most people who buy high end real estate do it because they WANT to (not because they NEED to). With the financial turmoil and uncertainty right now, NOBODY in their right mind is going to be buying high end real estate (unless it is an absolute steal or unless the buyer has a ridiculous amount of money – ie over 20 million)
I really like the bedroom. The whole place is very nice.
One day when I am really old and I smell like old people, maybe I’ll get me a place with all the heavy wood old people look.
I think of Ze when i read things like this nowadays:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/world/americas/13brazil.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=2&adxnnlx=1313262030-IajejS4sPrzFti3ORU0D3Q
I agree with Sonies and Roma. There is no comparison between the two and I don’t think number of bedrooms have to do with anything.
Astor street is like the Park Ave of Chicago. No idea on this one. Properties in the GC like this are bought by people with true wealth. Not some 400k income couple who thinks they’re big shots–I’m talking HNW people.
Bob is right about the HNW individuals buying this place. This is not the place someone with 500k income and 1million in assets could ever afford. This is more like a place for someone with 10 million plus (at least) in assets as well as a good income stream.
Well roma.. I guess, in fairness, every time Berlusconi goes ‘bunga bunga’ or you guys lose to Inter, I’ll have to think of you.
Thanks for the article.. a couple of sentences really surprised me.
Worse is how I feel for the poor schmuck in the wrong type of suit. His back is literally to this.
http://noticias.r7.com/rio-de-janeiro/noticias/banhistas-movimentam-a-praia-de-ipanema-neste-sabado-20110219.html
Is Roma Italian or his ancestors were?
I asked him once.. no answer… so we can just make him one.
Have to say.. 2 bedrooms might be a preference for someone without kids, so long as they thought they weren’t going to move soon. Would be for me.
“Bob is right about the HNW individuals buying this place. This is not the place someone with 500k income and 1million in assets could ever afford. This is more like a place for someone with 10 million plus (at least) in assets as well as a good income stream.”
In the US, HNWI is defined as having more than 1 million in investable assets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_net_worth_individual
ok – then only a VHNWI (V=very) could afford this place. What’s your point?
“Bob is right about the HNW individuals buying this place. This is not the place someone with 500k income and 1million in assets could ever afford. This is more like a place for someone with 10 million plus (at least) in assets as well as a good income stream.”
Sure. But there are probably 100 properties similar to this (at least.) How many HNW individuals ARE there that already don’t own something?
Apparently- since this has been on the market for 3 years- the answer is “not many.”
While we’ve seen a handful of $4 million plus properties sell this year- there are still a bunch more on the market that will sit and sit (especially with the stock market now doing what it’s doing.)
Sabrina,
At this price point, these owners have no reason to lower the price. Most units over 3-4 million (and several over 2 million) don’t have mortgages – the owners’ expenses are limited to upkeep, taxes, assessments. While these can add up to 50-75k/year, the owners figure that they can keep the property on the market for 4-5 years at a loss of 250-400k – which isn’t as painful as taking a 1 million+ loss by reducing their prices to what may sell in the current market.
Just pointing out the inaccuracy of this statement
““Bob is right about the HNW individuals buying this place. This is not the place someone with 500k income and 1million in assets could ever afford. This is more like a place for someone with 10 million plus (at least) in assets as well as a good income stream.”
I also wonder if this statement is accurate:
“Most units over 3-4 million (and several over 2 million) don’t have mortgages”
I wonder if there is some reputable source of record behind such a statement.
I’m not so sure there’s 100 properties like this one in Chicago. There is, however, a dearth of buyers well suited to this property (which is not to say that there’s few buyers with this money; it’s just that many would prefer new buildings, views, ammenities, etc.).
http://cribchatter.com/?p=11024#comment-172221
“Most units over 3-4 million (and several over 2 million) don’t have mortgages”
“I wonder if there is some reputable source of record behind such a statement.”
There isn’t. Clio just wants to believe what he wants to believe. Sure- there are some that won’t have a mortgage. But there ar eplenty that do. Is it “MOST” over $3-4 million don’t have them? You’d have to look at some of the units on the market and see.
Roma, I cannot decode your encrypted message. So are you of Italian ancestry or Italian?
” But there ar eplenty that do. Is it “MOST” over $3-4 million don’t have them? You’d have to look at some of the units on the market and see.”
ARE U KIDDING ME with this statement?!! The places that are on the market in this price range DO NOT represent the vast majority of multimillion dollar properties in existence. If this is how you get your data, then your whole concept of real estate is ridiculously skewed (translation: people who have expensive units on the market are not representative of the luxury market – most of the sellers in the market right now must be in a bad financial situation so they are NOT representative of the thousands of multimillionaires out there).
The very first $5 million listed house I looked at: 1435 N. State Parkway- has a multi-million dollar mortgage on it.
I just looked at a few others in the $4 million+ range and at least one had a lis pendens foreclosure against it.
1837 N. Winchester listed at $4.395 million- also has multi-million dollar mortgage.
1409 N. Dearborn listed at $4.395 million- also has a multi-million dollar mortgage.
336 W. Wisconsin listed at $3.95 million- also has a multi-million dollar mortgage.
I could go on. So far- just from a quick look- I haven’t found ONE on the market that doesn’t have a mortgage on it (in SFHs.) I’m sure there ARE some.
But is that “most”?
No.
Clio- your argument was that these owners can keep their houses on the market for YEARS because they have no mortgage so therefore their carrying costs were lower. So they were more willing to wait for their price- rather than lower the price and just sell it.
But from just doing a quick check- that doesn’t appear to be the case. They have mortgages like everyone else.
I never argued that ALL of the multi-million dollar properties have mortgages. But those that are on the market- certainly seem to.
Perhaps the truly “wealthy” (i.e. Groupon wealth) is more rare than most people believe.
Sabrina,
Don’t confuse your readers. The bottom line is that most multimillion dollar properties don’t have large mortgages – you are falsely implying that most have huge mortgages and then you take your “data” from only the houses on the market (just like you predominantly showcase properties which were bought in the boom and are now on sale). You are doing your readers a great disservice by only using the most “at-risk” properties and homeowners to prove your points.
Honestly, you HAVE to look at all properties out there, mortgages, and THEN make your point. The bottom line is that the vast majority of home owners out there are OK – many own their homes outright (whether they are multimillion dollar properties or not). You choose to create chaos to push your own personal views/opinions/agenda – that is NOT right.
@Sabrina
“I just looked at a few others in the $4 million+ range and at least one had a lis pendens foreclosure against it.”
Granted this article is from the beginning of the year…
“One in seven homeowners with loans over $1 million are seriously delinquent compared to one in 12 with mortgages below $1 million.
”
rest of story here
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/30/eveningnews/main7300082.shtml
The gist of the article is that the rich are rational and just as bankers are ruthless, so are they. The rich are walking away as “it [home] became an investment not worth holding onto”
again from the article
”
“People like myself, business people, are going it is silly to throw good money after bad,” says Thomas “The loss is not mine. The loss is the banks.””
Personally in this situation, I think this is the rational choice which tends to contradict some other postings
“The bottom line is that most multimillion dollar properties don’t have large mortgages”
Evidence?
To imply that someone who has a multimillion dollar mortgage (and selling) is in financial trouble is just plain wrong. I can only think of a few truly wealthy individuals I know who *don’t* have a mortgage, and these people make more money in a month than most upper-middle class professionals do in a year(s). I think it’s a non-HNW individual’s mindset to think that by owning your place outright, your troubles are over. The truly wealthy usually don’t play by those rules… they don’t have to.
It’s like the statement ‘white kitchens are ‘in’ again’. No, white (painted) kitchens by say Peacock and other high end millwork shops that you have never heard of, have been ‘in’ with the carriage trade for the last 10+ years. These people don’t wait until it shows up in a Jennifer Aniston movie before running out to Ikea with the masses.
HNWI’s with their white kitchens and big mortgages operate on a different level than the vast majority of people, because they can. Sure a few are in trouble, but I agree with clio… for the most part, they’ll be just fine.
most of the sellers in the market right now must be in a bad financial situation so they are NOT representative of the thousands of multimillionaires out there.
Well their balance sheets are still subjected to the price their neighbors house trades at.
Secondly, the homes Sabrina picks come with pricing history generally dating back to the 90’s. So what point about only seeing boom pricing has any relevancy, since it’s not the only price being shown?
Clio.. suggestion… don’t open your brokerage statement this month, if you don’t look, then you didn’t lose anything.
btw Clio.. what a crazy nice day today was, down here in imaginary land.
Jay,
What Clio is saying is that these VHNWI are not selling. They are too smart to sell at these prices. They are not participating in the market.
You are saying that even if they sell, they can afford the hit, so they don’t even care, sell, don’t sell and bleed a bit, no big deal, they will be OK.
I vehemently disagree with the first, and I completely agree with the second.
“Most units over 3-4 million (and several over 2 million) don’t have mortgages”
COMPLETE NON-SENSE.
@ gring
I have a friend that has museum quality artwork (bought by the parents in the 40’s after the war for a fraction of what they’re worth now I’m guessing). After a few drinks, by both of us, I said something like ‘what does it cost you to insure a Ernst… or three. The reply was ‘I don’t want the insurance company nor the government to know what I have… they aren’t insured… nobody would believe they’re real anyway’. Easy come, easy go. It’s a very different world for the *truly* wealthy.
Oh wow, Jay – from that one statement from one moron, you make generalized statements about the wealthy? Did it occur to you that your friend may be lying to you? Good grief, the basis on which conclusions are made on this site is pathetic!!!
Sure. But there are probably 100 properties similar to this (at least.)
SABRINA, do you actually know what you’re talking about? I’m really curious at what capacity you are involved with the real estate industry. I don’t believe you when you say that this website is a hobby for you. Primo, if this is a hobby, why such secrecy? Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym? Secondo, the time and effort you spend on real estate, clearly is substantial. SO, why don’t you start by being honest first? And the first rule of honesty is transparency my dear.
This site has the potential to be something. Your picks are usually good. You have a point of view about all these things which creates a good debate and community environment. However, all this anonomity is making it irrelevant. It’s really too bad.
There is nothing wrong with being a stakeholder so long as you are open and upfront about it and don’t hide behind some ridiculuous statement that you just “love” real estate.
“The reply was ‘I don’t want the insurance company nor the government to know what I have… they aren’t insured…
I am laughing and applauding. Bravo!!!!
Besides, what could be funnier than hearing someone else say “hey, I have a Miro poster, too”
Back to this property:
1- Bedroom count: IRRELEVANT! Look at the damn sq.ft. This bedroom count approach to real estate is a big part of what made real estate building so blend and boring today. Pick up the last issue of dwell, there is a beautiful story about a couple who build a home in L.A. with the intention of living in it FOREVER! i.e. without the concern/trap of “false perception” of building a “markeatable” home when the time comes to sell it.
2- What will it take to sell it? For the seller to come back to EARTH. This price is high even for a none-distressed market. The target market for the home is super narrow. And, not necessarily because it’s a 2BR, there are many other elements, starting with the price. I honestly don’t see a justification for the price here. I walk by this building almost on a daily basis, overall as beautiful as these landmark streets are, light exposure is not the forte here. Especially, the block this home is located at, I find it depressing and while there are some unique details in the home’s interior that are cool, overall I find it pretty ugly actually.
What is so “depressing” about this block?!!! It actually is the best of both worlds – right in the middle of everything, but a block that is not busy/bustling with car/pedestrian traffic – this is the IDEAL location. Remember, you don’t want a building where you walk out the front door and are swept up by the mob of people walking down the street and you don’t want a building that is too far from everything that you have to really walk far or take a cab.
Oh wow, Jay – from that one statement from one moron, you make generalized statements about the wealthy?
Clio, and you are the “porte parole” for the wealthy?
What is so “depressing” about this block?!!!
It’s purely a personal take. I’m slightly chlaustrophobic, and especially this corner is really dark. Most of the townhomes on bellevue, elm, cedar are also beautiful and charming, they just don’t get a lot of natural light.
“Clio, and you are the “porte parole” for the wealthy?”
probably more than anyone who follows this site.
And another problem with these landmark streets is this: Whoever made the decision decades ago to build/approve those ugly condo buildings on that stretch of Lake Shore Drive from Oak to North and up to Clark, has caused a tremendous damage to the value of these true landmark properties. If these streets were kept really original, yes, this home would of sold for the prices we are talking about. Not anymore. the exclusivity has been broken done long time ago.
And the irony is, all these people who now live in these ugly buildings have blocked a boutique hotel initiative on oak street which would of gotten rid of the eyesore that the Esquire theater is, and would of probably been something really cool architecturally speaking.
And you have a stupid giant parking lot, I believe, on Goethe and LSD (or +/- 1-2 blocks within there)
“probably more than anyone who follows this site.”
Hahaha. You are too obvious.
And you’d be surprised how many multi-million $$ mortgages there are out there. Actually, let me make that more accurate for you: you’d be surprised how many 80% multi-million ELV’s out there. That’s a huge misperception to think what you think. You’re clearly talking out of your a** Clio.
Take 2 buyers for instance who have $600K cash. The buyer/owner who is actually doing ok/been doing ok since the crisis exploded are simply people who stayed within their means, and purchased their homes for the right reasons. Unfortunately, there are too many retards out there who are suffering from status anxiety disorder and used their $500K-$600K cash to buy a multi-million dollar property. Those people, alng with “bottom chasing” wannabe real estate investors are the most miserable bunch in the real estate world today.
uhhh I am one of those “retards” who used my cash to buy multimillion dollar properties and am doing OK. Maybe I should have invested more in Enron, lucent, etoys, AIG instead of buying real estate…. I’ll think more about that on my way to the bank.
“Eight months ago I purchased a good number of unsold units in a couple of new construction, Miami high rises during close out sales from the developers”
These type of moves would only make sense if you bought a large portion of the units in a given building. Do people realize that buildings with high investor and occupancy ratios, are running into huge lending issues because they don’t have Fannie May approvals? It’s time bottom chasers realize that everything has a price and “cheap” usually ends up being really expensive. There is no free lunch. It will come back and bite you from the a** if you don’t know what you’re doing or getting into…
I meant low occupancy ratios…
I’m sure you did Clio. I’m sure you did. Anything is possible in this little fantasy virtual world. That’s why it’s so awesome. You can roleplay any character you want. How fun is that?! I must say though Clio, you’re a pretty lousy actor. That’s the only problem here. You give yourself away a little too easily.
And you just contradicted yourself here: You started your argument by saying that most of the multi-million dollar real estate out there had no or little mortgage and then went on to say that you bought bunch of them with $500K-$600K cash. I mean Clio, you called yourself a retard, I didn’t…I’m just saying…
spinoza – i never said I had 500-600k cash – that was YOUR post. All I said was that I used my cash to buy real estate. Most of my properties are paid off.
Clio, in my orginal post reated to this, I made a distinction between a buyer who buys the property outright cash with his/her $600K, and the buyer who, with the same amount of cash, buys a multi-million dollar property. You are the one who put yourself in the latter category.
“In the US, HNWI is defined as having more than 1 million in investable assets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_net_worth_individual”
Just because you read it on Wikipedia doesn’t make it true. That is the threshold to be a “registered investor” but goto any i-bank’s PCS division with $1MM and see what they tell you–you might even be sent away by the secretary.
bob, get your stories straight, Clio walked in with 500 beanie babies demanding they were still worth 5k a piece. And that only stupid people were now selling them for 1 dollar.
MIUx2,
The name is just a reference to the character from Mamet’s Glengarry Glenn Ross:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIqxNbhZA1E
“Maybe I should have invested more in Enron, lucent, etoys, AIG”
It’s an intellectually lazy “argument” to use these companies as a reason NOT to buy stocks or that all stocks are bad.
Seriously. You can do better than that.
What if your portfolio looked like this in 1999?
Enron: 5%
Lucent: 5%
etoys: 5%
AIG: 5%
Pets.com: 5%
Apple: 5%
ebay: 5%
Exxon: 5%
McDonalds: 5%
Pfizer: 5%
Amazon: 5%
Nordstrom: 5%
Starbucks: 5%
Whole Foods: 5%
Caterpillar: 5%
JP Morgan: 5%
GE: 5%
Microsoft: 5%
Chesapeake Energy: 5%
TJ Maxx: 5%
You would have done just fine. If ALL you bought were the first five- and you didn’t diversify- then that’s your own fault.
If all you bought in 2005 was condos in American Invsco buildings and didn’t diversify- again…that’s your own fault.
Don’t put all your eggs into one basket.
“Most of the townhomes on bellevue, elm, cedar are also beautiful and charming, they just don’t get a lot of natural light.”
This has been argued about for decades now. That they “ruined” the gold coast by allowing all of the high rises which, basically, blocked natural light to the surrounding SFH and rowhouses so even on the brightest summer day they get very little natural light.
“I’m really curious at what capacity you are involved with the real estate industry. I don’t believe you when you say that this website is a hobby for you. Primo, if this is a hobby, why such secrecy? Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym? Secondo, the time and effort you spend on real estate, clearly is substantial. SO, why don’t you start by being honest first? And the first rule of honesty is transparency my dear.”
Thanks for the lecture. I guess I just don’t want to change my ways after running the most popular real estate website in the city of Chicago for about 4 years now.
And no. Hate to disappoint you. I have nothing to do with the real estate industry whatsoever.
I know that part REALLY gets you though.
“HNWI’s with their white kitchens and big mortgages operate on a different level than the vast majority of people, because they can. Sure a few are in trouble, but I agree with clio… for the most part, they’ll be just fine.”
Their wealth moves with the stock market. Ask any Manhattan broker. They’ll tell you the same.
We didn’t see any $5 million properties sell during the stock market bust. Now we’re seeing some movement (only after the stock market gained nearly 100% and they felt better about their portfolios.)
Yes- if they have $100 million in stocks and see a $30 million decline, it still affects them as buyers psychologically. Heck, Oprah Winfrey was on her show during the worst of the bust telling Suze Orman that she called her advisors and had them move her out of stocks because she thought she was going to lose it all. And she’s a billionaire.
So, if the stock market sell-off continues, I’m expecting the upper bracket to get very, very slow again.
“Honestly, you HAVE to look at all properties out there, mortgages, and THEN make your point. The bottom line is that the vast majority of home owners out there are OK – many own their homes outright (whether they are multimillion dollar properties or not). You choose to create chaos to push your own personal views/opinions/agenda – that is NOT right.”
Clio- that is NOT what YOU argued.
You argued that sellers in the $3 million and above bracket could keep their properties on the market for years and years because they had less carrying costs than a “normal” seller who also had to pay a mortgage during that time.
We’re NOT talking about all the multi-million dollar properties out there. In your own exampls- you were talking about those on the market.
So when I give you a bunch of examples of those on the market that definitely DO have mortgages- you throw a hissy fit.
Just sticking with the facts Clio. There truly aren’t that many really, really rich people out there.
“There truly aren’t that many really, really rich people out there.”
Not in the midwest. But look to NYC or the westside of LA, or parts of Florida.
Bob- I’m referring to those with $100 million or whatever in net worth. YOu know- those who can legitimately just walk in and buy a $5 million home in cash. How many of those in the country? 2000 or 3000?
It’s not as many as people think.
But I agree that Chicago doesn’t have the financial center of NY or the dot-coms of the Bay Area or the entertainment money of LA to have as many expensively priced (and selling) homes.
NY remains a mystery to me. You can go all the way out to the end of Long Island and most houses are still 600k+ even though its 2hrs to the city.
Are there many jobs on LI to afford those kinds of valuations for all the properties? I doubt it.
Probably why the congressman representing LI is lobbying to get the FHA loan limits extended for another couple of years. It’s a ponzi economy over there.
Bob- it’s no different in the Bay Area or other parts of California. Can all those people really make enough to pay $500k for houses in San Diego?
If HD is frustrated here- he wouldn’t be able to take it out there.
They are also lobblying to get the higher FHA loan limits extended in parts of California as well. Good luck with that. Congress does not seem inclined to do so at this moment in time.
‘Oh wow, Jay – from that one statement from one moron, you make generalized statements about the wealthy?’
I assure you clio they are quite real. But, that’s neither here nor there. My point was that *true* wealth can afford, not that they want to, to take a hit on real estate, jewelry, art, schools… whatever; many of them may still take out a mortgage for a $2 or $50M house regardless of the fact it could be paid for in cash.
‘Their wealth moves with the stock market. Ask any Manhattan broker. They’ll tell you the same.’ You’re correct to a certain degree Sabrina, but what’s *really* moving high end Manhattan real estate right now is foreign money (as it is in London and Paris). As stated before, my sister has lived on Park near the Armory for 20 years now, and there is real concern with the building’s long time residents that too many ‘outsiders’ are applying for board approval: what they *don’t* show you on Selling New York.
“You’re correct to a certain degree Sabrina, but what’s *really* moving high end Manhattan real estate right now is foreign money (as it is in London and Paris).”
I’m sure this is true Jay. I’ve read the articles about the influx of Chinese and Russian money. But we don’t have that problem here in Chicago.
@Bob
“Just because you read it on Wikipedia doesn’t make it true.”
I post a wikipedia link because most people will accept it and there is the moderation issue with posting multiple links.
but just for you
Investopedia explains High Net Worth Individual – HNWI
The most commonly quoted figure for membership in the high net worth “club” is $1 million in liquid financial assets.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hnwi.asp
@Bob
The U.S. is still home to the single largest HNW segment in the world, with its 3.1 million HNWIs accounting for 28.6% of the global HNWI population…
More than two-thirds of Merrill Lynch Global Wealth Management relationships are with clients who have a net worth of $1 million or more.
http://www.capgemini.com/news-and-events/news/merrill-lynch-global-wealth-management-and-capgemini-release-15th-annual-world-wealth-report/
I understand that there will be differences in how different banks will treat $1 million vs. $5 million vs. … in investable assets
“The bottom line is that most multimillion dollar properties don’t have large mortgages”
still waiting for evidence
“Are there many jobs on LI to afford those kinds of valuations for all the properties? I doubt it.”
It obviously has it’s own economy with the large amount of people that live there. Especially since most Manhattanites are more than happy to add to that population and try and attach Brooklyn and Queens as part of L.I. as well.
From here L.I. gets split into a few pieces. North Shore Nassau County=classier with character (and really, parts are beautiful), then you have the nouveau South Shore Nassau County which has beaches and mafia princesses mixed with Jap’s. Then you simply have Suffolk which is simply “you commute how long? from where? every day?” and contains the Hamptons which is not part of L.I. but part of N.Y., oddly but very pleasantly misplaced on L.I.. Queens thinks and acts as if it wishes it were good enough to be part of L.I., but L.I. wants no part of it either. Brooklyn and the Bronx are both firmly N.Y.C. and S.I. doesn’t even get discussed in the hope that this approach will cause it to be forgotten.
Most of the people you are referring to commute. For many, an hour and a half commute is seen as tolerable. Places like Princeton have many daily commuters up into NYC as well. Surprisingly, by some time continuum anomaly, it takes in percentage terms about the same amount of time to drive to the border of Nassau, as it does to take to go to Montauk, since the first few miles might take you 2 hours anyway.
Now you know the outer boroughs. Not a ponzi, more an extreme bleed out to raise the kids with something green.
“I understand that there will be differences in how different banks will treat $1 million vs. $5 million vs. … in investable assets”
Does one guy get guaranteed a better return cause he has more? Lucky f’er!
and what evidence. If Clio said it that should suffice …”let it be written, let it be done”!!
@ze
Muito muito verdadeiro
não ouvir não olhar…ignore os trolls
“I understand that there will be differences in how different banks will treat $1 million vs. $5 million vs. … in investable assets”
There will be differences between what banks will actually return your calls and run your money for you and the differences are significant between 1 & 5. You aren’t getting white glove PCS treatment from GS, CS, UBS, etc with $1MM. I was told point blank by an employee at one of these places that they wouldn’t know what to do with investors with $1MM. I did find that attitude a little off-putting as other retail brokers would kill for $1MM clients.
ML is the McDonalds/Wal-Mart of brokering. You might get some free Cubs tickets every now and then but you aren’t going to the world series. And you’re only getting IPO action if the thing is a dud and noone else wants it.
Citigroup/Primerica/ML/AG Edwards/Ed Jones all compete in the trenches. Many of the other big financial institutions don’t. $1MM investable assets is still the trenches.
@Bob
Yes, I agree with you regarding client handling. I remember when NT started redirecting clients with 1 mil to a call center instead of having a dedicated adviser.
are we good though on the definition of HNWI being 1 million or more?
Only because the definition adheres to that of an “Accredited Investor”, which set that amount at $1MM in 1933. It was filthy rich in 1933 nowadays notsomuch.
If Dodd-Frank raises the limit to $2.5MM for some hedge funds and indexes that to inflation then look for the definition of HNWI to change along with.
Thanks Bob
For future reference again, I tend not to cite multiple sources due to the moderation delay when multiple links are inserted.
Hope all is well.
@Bob
Regarding Dodd-Frank
and citing wiki (sorry)
As of 2009, Frank’s net worth is estimated by the Center for Responsive Politics at $1.88 to $4.74 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Frank
so he himself would still qualify at 2.5 mil.
BTW how did you come up with 2.5 mil vs 2 or 3 mil?
The NYC region is very expensive, which is why many adult kids live with their parents. That’s just my opinion, formed from media images of NYC “middle class” areas.
http://www.mofo.com/sec-proposes-new-anti-fraud-rule-and-changes-to-the-definition-of-accredited-investor-for-private-investment-vehicles-01-22-2007/
Ahh some confusion. Basically Accredited Investor limits are going up starting possibly in 2014 and equity in primary residence can no longer be counted towards HNW threshold.
“Accredited Natural Person” was proposed for the $2.5MM+ set. Proposed rule in 2007 not sure it ever got off the ground.
Ah.
From a working perspective, what I saw for HNWI was 1 mil + and not counting principle home equity.
But from a different definition of Accredited Investor *pause* yes – looks like there was a proposal to raise it.
I agree with the idea. Doubtful that it will happen though.
Forgot to add.
1 million just works as a number since we are base 10 math.
Kinda of like Austin Powers. 1 million dollars muah hahaha instead of 2.5 million dollars muah hahahah
Oh and since I am such an Old Town bigot, I would take this property over Billy’s
http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2011/07/20/seller-slashes-price-by-250k-on-house-of-light.php
This listing is 15k more in taxes
Sab:
“there are plenty of other similar properties on the market in the immediate vicinity either priced close to this one or even less- including Nate Berkus’ place which was just reduced as well.”
I can’t agree with you on the first comment. Features/Pedigree/history/bdrm/bath #s/, etc. THere are just not that many units that compare to this place. I spent a few hours browsing most upper level luxury units on the market and it was difficult finding anything in this shape with the features…with that huge a deduction.
Berkus’ funky units is similar only for the fact it has a name attached and it went through the price chopper. Nothing elae can be compared between the two units.
Sab:
“there are plenty of other similar properties on the market in the immediate vicinity either priced close to this one or even less- including Nate Berkus’ place which was just reduced as well.”
I can’t agree with you on the first comment. Features/Pedigree/history/bdrm/bath #s/, etc. THere are just not that many units that compare to this place. I spent a few hours browsing most upper level luxury units on the market and it was difficult finding anything in this shape with the features…with that huge a deduction.
Berkus’ funky units is similar only for the fact it has a name attached and it went through the price chopper. Nothing elae can be compared between the two units.
clio:
“NOBODY in their right mind is going to be buying high end real estate (unless it is an absolute steal or unless the buyer has a ridiculous amount of money…”
I am in my right mind and have purchased many props over the $1 mil mark since the housing bust. I have not had much difficulty selling them when we finished the projects. Those who have not sold I will continue to hold onto or rent if that is was is requested by my ‘advisors’. I am not hurting in any way now.
To me, this place is def a steal because of it’s location, the quality of the entire unit and the price reduction. While I do nnot mess with FC or SSs, I do go for price chopped deals…of which there are plenty in this bracket.
“I never argued that ALL of the multi-million dollar properties have mortgages. But those that are on the market- certainly seem to.”
I agree with this statement. Multi mill props WITH mortgages are those who are attempting to sell now. Those upper level HNW individuals who own places like this don’t have mortgages and they have been well advised to sit it out before putting that sign on the building. There is no real need to sell for the wealthy, so they don’t.
In speaking with agents who deal with this level of housing (mostly NYC agents) they are quick to tell a small number of their clients of the units that ARE on the market in a “special sales category”…meaning there usually are no listings available to the public. The news of their presence on the market is spread via word of mouth between brokers who work with the truly rich.
I know of several buildings and units in my ‘hood that are for sale and only the super well connected are made aware of their status.
This is very true of the NYC market and to a far lesser extent I have found out, the Chicago market. I have purchased most of my $2mil+ places in this fashion. Just one of the perks of having been in this biz for decades and having a solid connections with most ‘luxury only’ RE agencies here in the city.
“…‘I don’t want the insurance company nor the government to know what I have… they aren’t insured… nobody would believe they’re real anyway’. Easy come, easy go. It’s a very different world for the *truly* wealthy”
This is very true. I am not trying to impress anyone by saying that I have many, very wealthy people in both NYC and South Florida I count as friends and well regarded acquiantances and I too have heard this from them.
One uber wealthy and very well connected (world connections) couple I know well (we’ve done several projects for them and their children) have a 15,000 sq ft intercoastal mansion PACKED with millions and millions of dollars worth of untouchable, one of a kind Art Deco furnishings and art work.
These are signed/numbered works by Laliaue, Ruhlmann, Le Corbusier, Botero, etc.. Each of which could easily cost the equivalent average workers’ lifetime wages.
None of them are insured at all for the exact reason mentioned above….to them it is no one’s business what they own. When asked by people who do not know them well (they are very private people) about their priceless museum quality collection, they tell them they are all reproductions and leave it at that.
“SABRINA, do you actually know what you’re talking about? I’m really curious at what capacity you are involved with the real estate industry. I don’t believe you when you say that this website is a hobby for you. Primo, if this is a hobby, why such secrecy? Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym? Secondo, the time and effort you spend on real estate, clearly is substantial. SO, why don’t you start by being honest first? And the first rule of honesty is transparency my dear.”
This kind of attack/accusation has no bearing whatsoever on what is contained in her website. She has a solid grasp on what is happening in the Chicagoland RE scene and has proven it time and time again. Just because she chooses to remain somewhat anonymous should be of little to no concern to you.
“but what’s *really* moving high end Manhattan real estate right now is foreign money”
From someone who lives in NYC and has all my life…and being very actively involved in NYC RE, this is true in about 25 – 30% of the buyers acting in the market today. There was a good explosion in foreign buying before the RE crash, but it has subsided greatly.
The wealthy NYC movers and shakers are buying and selling in prestigious new construction complexes such as the Lucida, Sheffield, 100 11th and of course 15 CPW, to name only a few.
“Are there many jobs on LI to afford those kinds of valuations for all the properties? I doubt it.”
Come into the city and ride to subway during rush hours. You will see many (most) people who actually work in Manhattan live off the island in one of many locales. I am more that certain this applies to all areas of NYC. We travel to work and travel back home every day. But yes, even two hours out of NYC and housing prices are still well above $500k.
“Probably why the congressman representing LI is lobbying to get the FHA loan limits extended for another couple of years. It’s a ponzi economy over there.”
WHAT?
“Do people realize that buildings with high investor and occupancy ratios, are running into huge lending issues because they don’t have Fannie May approvals? It’s time bottom chasers realize that everything has a price and “cheap” usually ends up being really expensive. There is no free lunch. It will come back and bite you from the a** if you don’t know what you’re doing or getting into…”
From a Miami perspective only…most of the units we have purchased lately are being marketed almost exclusively to very wealthy S American or pockets of wealthy European countries. These people do not have to rely on fannie / freddie to purchase their homes. For the last 20 years this has been the case in the area and it only seems to be growing each year.
The only thing cheap for me was the 60% price chop..nothing cheap about the materials or labor I have to invest to make these units attractive to wealthy individuals.
Personally speaking, I have never relied on or looked for a free lunch when doing business of any kind. Nor will any of my business decisions come back to bite me in the ass.
What i do I could not advise anyone else to do because of the years spent in every type of enviroment I have lived through. I know what I am doing but it has taken a life time (and my families work) to be at this level. HARD WORK!!
“I’m referring to those with $100 million or whatever in net worth. YOu know- those who can legitimately just walk in and buy a $5 million home in cash. How many of those in the country? 2000 or 3000?
It’s not as many as people think.
There are literally millions of millionaires in the United States…. 8.9% of Americans are millionaires. That translates to roughly 2.6 million people.
Of course, being a millionaire doesn’t necessarily mean you have millions of dollars in cash lying around your mansion and stuffed in the glove box of your Ferrari. To determine someone’s overall wealth, all their holdings are looked at, including investments, cash, furniture, baseball cards, ridiculously expensive automobiles, and real estate. However, a person’s primary residence does not count toward the total.
The Affluent Market Research Program conducted a study to determine which counties in the United States host the most millionaires. According to their findings, Los Angeles County tops the list with roughly 262,800 millionaire households. Next is Cook County, Illinois, followed by Orange County, California (aka “The O.C.”).
While this article might be a few years old, it shows there are far more than 2 or 3000.
That 2 or 3000 would equal the number of legit billionaires now living in the US.
Ok Tired after a long day of replacing a staircase on a three level townhouse. Just had to respond to a few entries on this interesting thread.
Still LOVE this place and will be in town to check it out in person. I think I just might have to take it. It really draws me in for some odd reason.
westie,
How can you be obsessed with the subject property and NOT like this one?
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/999-N-Lake-Shore-Dr-60611/unit-9A/home/13058889
In my opinion, the place on LSD is very comparable – but has unparalleled views (north to oak street beach and lsd, east to the lake and west down dewitt- yes, there is a balcony off of the master that happens to be perfectly positioned so you can look all the way down to lake shore park). I told you that I was in negotiations to buy this place 2 years ago – but couldn’t because of my work requirements. You should really look into it (the 100% cash requirement has been relaxed and the owner was very motivated to look for creative options to help with financing)
clio.. That listing you posted is not real. Rich people are not selling, you told us they wouldn’t be so dumb. That is a rich persons apartment, it can not be for sale. I am so confused.
ze – I didn’t say that. I said that the only people selling high end real estate right now either:
A. Don’t have a lot of money and are in over their heads or
B. Have tons of money and would rather deal with the loss of money on their investment than have the psychological burden of keeping their place.
She falls into the latter of the two categories!
“WHAT?”
The bill is sponsored by one D congressman representing Nassau and one D congressman representing an area in Cali. I don’t think it has a chance at passing, though.
“people who have expensive units on the market are not representative of the luxury market – most of the sellers in the market right now must be in a bad financial situation so they are NOT representative of the thousands of multimillionaires out there)”
Your new assessment, I agree with. But this is a representation of the market.
and it is about 2/10ths of a percent of households in the US with incomes of over a mil. Say maybe use 4/10ths for guestimating chitown????
“and it is about 2/10ths of a percent of households in the US with incomes of over a mil. Say maybe use 4/10ths for guestimating chitown????”
High income and wealth are two entirely different things. There are many many multimillionaires out there whose income is less than a million dollars (through inheritance and well-positioned investments). Hell, I personally own a few million dollars in real estate and make several hundred k/year just from real estate – but not one cent gets reported as official income (because of depreciation, etc.). Even gains are offset by past losses. Don’t be fooled by these statistics.
Strictly speaking from an income perspective from the NYT and Buffett
“But for those making more than $1 million — there were 236,883 such households in 2009 — I would raise rates immediately on taxable income in excess of $1 million, including, of course, dividends and capital gains. And for those who make $10 million or more — there were 8,274 in 2009 — I would suggest an additional increase in rate…”
“High income and wealth are two entirely different things.”
My bet on the overlap over the 1 million threshold is a very very high number. So point you make is true, but probably meaningless as a counter to mine.
I checked six 4M+ sales in the last year, and only two had mortgages. Of those two, one wasn’t a purchase money mortgage, but was taken several months later, presumably for rehad purposes.
“These are signed/numbered works by Laliaue, Ruhlmann, Le Corbusier, Botero, etc”
Do you have any clue who Le Corbu is? What the hell is he doing in an art-deco furniture collection? The fact that someone has a gazillion dollar art/furniture collection does not make it a “good” collection. A good collector is one who should have a “point of view” and the collection should reflect that point of view.
How can you be obsessed with the subject property and NOT like this one?
excellent comp and a perfect illustration that Astor listing’s pricing is in wacko-land.
Again, a personal note, so take it as so: East Lake Shore Dr. represents the summum of wannabeism.
groove… Didn’t you say you had a collection of le corbus’? I am working on adding to my collection of 2011 baseball cards, big sothebys auction this weekend.
“The only thing cheap for me was the 60% price chop..nothing cheap about the materials or labor I have to invest to make these units attractive to wealthy individuals-”
Look, all that matters is that you know what you’re doing and what you’re getting into. That’s all I’m saying. What I resent are primary home buyers who are bottom chasers, and wannabe/one time RE investors who have no clue about what they are doing. Having said that THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD THAT GETS A 60% DEVALUATION WITHOUT SOME RAMIFICATION ON ITS QUALITY. TO STATE OTHERWISE IS AGAINST THE NAURAL ORDER OF THINGS. YOU CAN BUY A CASHMERE SWEATER AT GAP AND CLAIM THAT YOU’RE SELLING IT 60% LESS THAN A HAND MADE IN ITALY CASHMERE AND YOU’D BE RIGHT, IT WOULD STILL BE CASHMERE, IT JUST WON’T BE THE SAME QUALITY.
“Again, a personal note, so take it as so: East Lake Shore Dr. represents the summum of wannabeism.”
Huh? Most of these units are cash only coops. Almost everyone on this block has a net worth greater than 10 million. How does this make them “wannabes”?
and isn’t anything east of Lake Sure, technically in the water? So Spinoza, are you saying everyone east of lake sure drive wants to be on land? That must be it, because that would make more sense than accusing every individual on a given street of being an asshole.
Wannabeism has nothing to do with your net worth. Money doesn’t mean you have status or prestige. It gives you the impression of having them.
G. I have no clue about what you’re saying but every generalization-including this one is wrong.
“THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD THAT GETS A 60% DEVALUATION WITHOUT SOME RAMIFICATION ON ITS QUALITY”
Not true. Spinoza darling you should try outlet shopping. As for cashmere sweaters try Loro Piana’s outlet on say the day after Befana and you’d be surprised at the deals you get.
Outlets are a big scam that dupe people into buying either defective products or products specially made for the outlet shops and it also makes people buy more than what they need and make them spend more than if they shopped seasonal non-sale items.
And there is no fun in shopping in a chaos-bazaar like environment either. I think it hurts the prestige of a solid brand like Loro Piana as well.
Yes, outlet stores will put a ridiculously high ‘retail price’ numbers and then a ‘discount’ price, to make buyers think they are getting a “deal”. Just wait for sales at regular retail stores.
“Money doesn’t mean you have status or prestige. It gives you the impression of having them.”
One might say the same, more accurately, and to a much greater extent, about those who feel the need to project an air of superiority.
I’d put those 2 head to head and take a vote. Money doesn’t always make you an asshole. The later is pretty much a 100%er.
most of the outlets really are just as Spinoza stated. Some like miu said and you can add in ones closer like Woodbury Commons in NY, really do have some great finds for much much less.
touche my dear.
“touche my dear.”
pas de touché, mon ami.
Spinoza you really don’t know what you are talking about here. Brands like Loro Piano are not Ralph Lauren. They don’t produce specially made stuff for an outlet. They have few items available from a size or color combination so you might not find what you like but the prices are great. YSL, Etro, Ferragamo, … have amazing deals in their outlets. I bought the Muse bag for $1400 ish from Neiman Marcus in leather and bought an Astarakhan version of it from the outlet for 900 euros. I believe it retails over $3000 in stores here.
Tomm, outlets in Europe carry items at much better prices than most stores even at times of sale and unless you know the shop keeper, popular items sell very quickly.
Also I am pretty tall, almost 5′ 9” so many of designer items especially from display or shows work for me. In fact, I bought my wedding dress 70% of as it was a display item and had to only tighten its waist a bit so it was an amazing deal. If you know where to shop and have some time to waste on shopping, there are deals galore.
spending $3,000 on a purse that probably cost $100 to make still isn’t a “deal”
typical woman’s logic
I spent 900 euros : ) It is made of fair, just the fair would cost more than $100 and well it makes me so happy when I open my closet and see them. Think of you guys having a waitress with large breasts. You’ll tip her more even though you won’t get much out of it… so it is all fair ; )
sorry I meant to write, spending 1400 bucks on a “$3,000” purse isn’t a deal
If you only knew the kinds of margins that all retail places make, and the kind of ridiculous margins that luxury items and jewlery have you would probably be a bit sad
of course, but there is value in their creative procedure. Think how all the low end brands copy their work. I like to support luxury brands as at least they make beautiful things that makes life more enjoyable. I agree that it is not a wise use of money, but I work hard and I think it is fair for poor miu to splurge once in a while. Also honestly, I use my stuff for a long time. I have sweaters that I have had for over a decade.
Oh and I meant to say fur not fair for the bag…lol
Sonies.. you are an adult male.. you know you are not going to get anywhere with that argument. Now let her enjoy her bag that she ‘saved’ $1,600 on.
lol…love you Ze!
re: purses
I have a partner who we keep making fun of – she has over 30k in purses and all of the male partners just cannot get over spending this kind of money on something so ridiculous!! Well, she must have gotten really sick of it and just blasted all the guys on OUR stupid spending (ie cars, tools). Guess what, in the end, the 30k in handbags doesn’t come close to the amount that guys wasted on ridiculous crap.
“Do you have any clue who Le Corbu is? What the hell is he doing in an art-deco furniture collection? The fact that someone has a gazillion dollar art/furniture collection does not make it a “good” collection. A good collector is one who should have a “point of view” and the collection should reflect that point of view.”
I know what I am talking about regarding collecting furnishings and artwork as they are among my more serious hobbies.
What I should have said (didn’t think I would have to elaborate regarding the different design eras) is …”among their vast collection are several one of a kind art deco pieces (Ruhlmann, Chiparus, etc) along with more mid century modern pieces such as many Le Corbusier works”.
Further, any art (or furniture) collection holds it ‘true’ value (not speaking financial value) in the eye of the beholder. Just because one might not like certain pieces does not make that piece or the collection a ‘good’ one nore does it make their design POV any less valid.
The family I was speaking of, like myself, have a very eclectic point of view and they (I) mix eras freely as the mood dictates.
To me there is nothing more boring or dull as a collection dominated entirely by one era or designer.
clio,
I really have no interest whatsoever in ANY property located directly on LSD. I am not a ‘water lover’ in any way and for me the lakeview is not an attractive view. If I am in a high rise I expect to see other high rises, the sunrise and the sunset. Water just does not do it for me personally.
I think it is the quiet elegance and beauty of this unit that has me. The size of the rooms would allow furnishings to be displayed correctly instead of being crammed into one small area. I would keep the furnishings as close to period as possible and as I said above, I would use period colors for the walls and rugs as well.
Just have got to have this place!!!!
“THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD THAT GETS A 60% DEVALUATION WITHOUT SOME RAMIFICATION ON ITS QUALITY.”
Tell this to all the thousands of people who lost their homes due to mortgage fraud. There was nothing deficient with their properties it was just some greedy sellers/agents/brokers etc who ruined their dream homes.
There was not one thing wrong with the units I purchased in Miami other than the fact that they sat empty for over two years. The high quality construction and materials were not affected by the % that was lost due to no one being able to get financing or willing to take the risks associated with their purchases.
westloop – I am surprised that you are letting your emotions cloud your judgement. As a seasoned contractor/realestate developer you should know and understand that following your emotions could lead to financial disaster!!
Tell this to all the thousands of people who lost their homes due to mortgage fraud. There was nothing deficient with their properties it was just some greedy sellers/agents/brokers etc who ruined their dream homes.
I don’t have any respect for people who do not bother to read their contracts, etc. I don’t buy the excuse: “I’ve been duped”. It’s absolutely unacceptable. Now, there are people who lost their jobs and life savings due to the crisis, and therefore got in trouble with their mortgage, etc. i certainly symphatize with those people, but not with people who used their homes as ATM machines, or bought homes they couldn’t afford.
I’m sorry, you will not convince me, few cosmetic touches that makes the property beautiful but hides all kinds of problems behind is not going to convince me. Now, it is another thing, if you know what you’re getting into with your own risk, i.e. you buy a distressed property that you know it’s going to be a fixer upper, you evaluate it, and if the risk is acceptable, you move forward. But, to buy below construction cost and then expect to have everything the same quality is nothing but insanity.
“The family I was speaking of, like myself, have a very eclectic point of view and they (I) mix eras freely as the mood dictates.
To me there is nothing more boring or dull as a collection dominated entirely by one era or designer”
“Further, any art (or furniture) collection holds it ‘true’ value (not speaking financial value) in the eye of the beholder. Just because one might not like certain pieces does not make that piece or the collection a ‘good’ one nore does it make their design POV any less valid.”
Points well made, but I did not say that they were “good” or “bad” because it wasn’t to my taste. What I was saying, is this: The mere fact of having an expensive collection does not make it a “good” collection.
“I bought the Muse bag for $1400 ish from Neiman Marcus in leather and bought an Astarakhan version of it from the outlet for 900 euros. I believe it retails over $3000 in stores here.”
Congratulations.
“pas de touché, mon ami.”
Ah bon? Pourquoi pas alors?
All this purse talk is making my head spin.
I bought my ex a YSL ‘muse’ bag and clutch just before we broke up. I think it set me back 2500 or something like that. I still can’t believe i did that, looking back I think I may have been drugged or in some sort of a coma.
regardless, you can’t put a pricetag on happiness, and some women REALLY value handbags. so be it. I’m the same way for cars and watches.
as they say one way or another you’re paying for it..
“I bought my ex a YSL ‘muse’ bag and clutch just before we broke up. I think it set me back 2500 or something like that. I still can’t believe i did that, looking back I think I may have been drugged or in some sort of a coma.”
please someone ban him already…..
riz.. Don’t want to sound like the ol guy passin down advice. But just let it go… You are mentally powerless around them, accept and go willingly. Or divide cost by you know what and objectify her away.. Lol
Riz, she will always remember you with affection though. I have some nice gifts from my ex that I really love. Every time I see them I wish him all the best in life.
and Clio you are so right. You should see all the gadget my husband buys and he is supposedly the wise one : )
Westloop:
Does this place “speak to you” as well? When I saw this, I immediately thought of you:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/132-E-Delaware-Pl-60611/unit-5801/home/14120439
lol…Clio, where did you find this? Is this where Barbie and Ken live?
“westloop – I am surprised that you are letting your emotions cloud your judgement. As a seasoned contractor/realestate developer you should know and understand that following your emotions could lead to financial disaster!!”
Thanks for your concern clio, but from the vast experience gained in this industry for 30 years, in addition to all the time my family has spent in it, I have a very real understanding of an emotional purchase and one that is done with strickly an investment/money making purchase. There is a difference and I do not allow my self to be clouded by them overlapping.
While I might be somewhat ‘obsessed’ now by this amazing unit, (the same way I was obsessed by 110 Superior and One Museum Park) I know the risks I would be taking by purchasing it. While I could do so comfortably with no buyers remorse later, I know when to pull in my emotions to stay in my financial safety zone.
If I do decide to purchase it, enjoy the hell out of it and maybe run my business from it, I possess enough common sense and rely on my business accumen to keep me from over extending myself.
I know I would REALLY enjoy it and the work we put into it, but I will eventually will turn around and sell it after another more fab unit becomes available. Just how I operate when it comes to units I purchase for my own residences.
We have finished the Arts and Crafts bungalow in Denver recently and it is a real gem of a home. I furnished it with repo pieces from Stickley for a true period home and plan on living in it and allowing my friends / relatives /business acquiantances to enjoy it’s beauty and uniqueness for years to come.
That one too will be placed on the market or sold to someone who really appreciates and loves the period as much as I do once I get my fill of it.
I do admit to allowing my emotions guide me to an extent but I learned from an early age to add an equal amount of common sense (both real life and financial) to the equation to keep myself from overindulging on things I consider beautiful and one of a kind. I have never overspent on homes either for my self or for use as rehabs / resales. I am in this industry deeply because I love what I do….and those who are on my team have the same outlook.
I will never be run into the ground financially because I know what I am doing and fully understand all of the risks I take with each and every purpose, regardless of the price of the unit in question. I have adequate liquid assets (I did state I will use proceeds from the Miami Penthouse to purchase and furnish it) and enough free money to keep my lifestyle going for decades.
I am not in any sort of RE trouble and can do as I want without fear of being wiped out by one wrong decision. Now if I made 10 or 15 consecutive financial decisons that went wrong, then yes I might be in some trouble but never will I lose what I have spent my entire life building…NEVER.
“But, to buy below construction cost and then expect to have everything the same quality is nothing but insanity.”
Not true in the price chopped units or blocks of units I purchase. They were all complete with high quality luxury finishes and were released for sale. If anything was eliminated from this ‘dream condo’ building, it was all the promised amenities that really had nothing to do with the quality of the units themselves. That had already been done and because of the timing of the developer’s failures, they were not allowed to go through and strip the units of their valuable appliances, finishes, etc. Again, the only things that were lost were reallly unneeded amenities and maybe a bit of the prestige that came from living in such a luxury development.
I know what you are saying though and yes, it has happened to some buyers. They were promised a beautiful unit and buildng and after the collapse of the financials of the developer, the buildings and units were stripped of their ‘assets’ leaving cheapened shells in place.
That is not what I bought into.
“quality luxury finishes”
That’s an illusion, because It’s cosmetic and it says nothing about the quality of built. I care about the quality of built, that’s what matters and that’s what most buyers should care about but don’t and then they get upset.
“quality luxury finishes”
That’s an illusion, because It’s cosmetic and it says nothing about the quality of built. I care about the quality of built, that’s what matters and that’s what most buyers should care about but don’t and then they get upset.
“I know what I am doing and fully understand all of the risks I take…”
This is what this business is all about: management of risk in the long run. That’s what separates amateurs, one time wannabe developers/investors, from serious players who operate with a long term vision in mind.
Now, even some very reputable developers got into trouble during the crisis. I think it would be valuable, for you to share what your true experiences have been and what you have learned from the crisis, and how you have adjusted your business during, and lessons you may have learned that will make you stronger when the next crisis hits the block…
“I will never be run into the ground financially because I know what I am doing and fully understand all of the risks I take with each and every purpose, regardless of the price of the unit in question”
uhhh no – you won’t ever “be run into the ground financially” because you have rich parents/grandparents. Please don’t take all the credit for your success – you and I both know that your success is mostly due to your family – if you started out with nothing, we both know that you wouldn’t be anywhere in the same position that you are in now!!!
“uhhh no – you won’t ever “be run into the ground financially” because you have rich parents/grandparents. Please don’t take all the credit for your success – you and I both know that your success is mostly due to your family – if you started out with nothing, we both know that you wouldn’t be anywhere in the same position that you are in now!!!”
VERY dangerous to make such unwarranted assumptions!
I started out in this business with the experience and expertise gained from my family….to an extent. While 99% of my family is employed in some facet of RE, their experience is just that…THEIRS. While they did get me started by advising me of tools of the trade…a good solid base of knowledge, they did not give me any financial assistance to get my business off the ground.
I was very fortunate to have inherited a nice trust fund which I used as a financial base from my relatives, but it was only enough to get started with the most basic of tools and a few dilapidated buildings.
If you remember the story I have relayed here a couple of times, I started out by doing regentrification of some severely decaying inner city buildings with the hope of restoring entire neighborhoods…of which I am proud to say I accomplished on my own.
After years of running into roadblocks and redtape from preservationists (who generally do more harm than good) I branched out into buying abandonded houses/buildings and converting them into mid level housing for young families/professionals.
After doing these starter homes for a few years while honing my (our)skills, I graduated to doing major projects for some prominent upper level professionals in the city.
From NYC I expanded to Florida where we performed major renovations of art deco / Mizner inspired homes and other historic buildings.
After successfullyy renovating these buildings/units, we returned to NYC where our first MAJOR project was the warehouse where I live now. It was a condemed shell of a building when I bought it and which we gutted and built it into a group of 4 large, original loft style units, the largest of which I retain as my own personal residence.
I built my company with the same group of pros I have with me nearly 30 years later. At no time did I ever have to rely on my parents or grandparents financial successes. While they freely shared knowledge and their own personal experience, they in no way ‘bankrolled’ ANY portion of my company.
I refused to be just another trust fund baby with endless financial backing who could lose hundreds of thousands of dollars by making stupid mistakes and instead learned as I went along. As I said before many times, if I did not have the talented group of miracle workers I have now, I would not have been as succcessful as I ended up being. I owe a big part of my success to them, not my own family.
Every decision I have made from day one has been extremely well thought out and executed. True, I did use my family name to influence people to take a chance on me and give me a few jobs, but the true hard work we did on our own.
I have taken many risks and put all of my finances on the line more than once…luckily none of my projects backfired and it seemed the more projects I completed the more my business flourished…again with no financial backing from any member of my family. I cannot stress the last statement enough!! I did it on my own with my own crew, not my family or their money.
So yes clio, I can proudly state I can take ALL credit for my success by making sound and rational decisions and having what I consider the best bunch of restoration experts in the country.
While you might not have a similar story as I do, it is possible to start from the most basic place and end up succcessfully. It is possible but it takes a lot of risk taking and keeping your mind open to all ideas all the time.
clio, thanks for pointing out that guys waste more money on their optional indulgences than women do on theirs. I’m glad to see this kind of honesty in a man.
Now, mind you, my days of overspending on handbags and perfume are OVER. But even at my most extravagant, every handbag, pair of shoes, set of china and silver, book, record, decorative article, and piece of jewelry or clothing did not add up to even half what my boyfriend spent on his car.
Never mind his BOAT.
Never mind his bar bill. I lived really well in a beautiful Lakeview rental for what most guys I knew spent in bars on Division St on any one night out with the guys.
mui mui, it is not extravagant to spend a nice pile of money on one handbag that you carry always and use for years. You’re doing the right thing dropping $2000 or more on a fine handbag if it means you buy less and wear your stuff for many years.
I have a relative who does the opposite. She has over 60 handbags in her closet, though she’d never dream of spending more than $150 and usually much less. However, her collection adds up to several thousands of dollars spent on stuff that will usually go unused and end up donated because these items were impulse spending. Now THIS is real waste. No use to point out to her that she could have something truly choice for one third what she has shot for a closet full of clutter she doesn’t even really want.
Like you, I prefer a “luxury” bag or other article to something inferior that I’m going to set aside after a year’s use. I carry only one bag, because I hate changing purses, find it very disruptive- makes it easy to lose and misplace essential articles, and have a very small wardrobe of basic clothes that have to last. I try to get stuff from consignment houses and off E-bay whenever possible.
You’re not being a pig enjoying a luxury article for years and paying a lot of money for it. This is the environmentally correct way to consume- make sure what you buy is good, what you really want and need, and make it last for years, vs. buying a lot of inferior junk made of petroleum products or other cheap materials, and consigning it to a landfill in less than two years.
Living an environmentally conscious life does not mean living in poverty. In fact, it means buying what you really can use and really value, and making it count. It means editing the “waste” spending out of your life so you can have real luxury. For me, that means eschewing a money-guzzling auto and an oversized, fuel-guzzling dwelling so I can have real luxury, such as fine oriental rugs and a few pieces of truly fine clothing and furniture. I can’t afford much, so I have to make my expenditures count.
Thank you Laura. I could not agree more. I have a few friends who constantly buy junk and believe me they spend more than I do and never even look good.
Also people forget the value of design that artist put into their work. I keep my stuff for a long time and try to buy things that are classic and not just expensive fads.
“environmentally correct”
bwhahaha i love reading the new buzzwords those laden with white guilt are using. thanks for the laugh laura.
westie – I immediately thought of you when I came across this new listing near my house – totally your style:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Oak-Brook/704-Deer-Trail-Ln-60523/home/18083187
clio,
Sure my taste but first
#1) Take away ALL of the garish Liberace/Vegas ballroom furnishings…check out those hideous drapes and fabric all over!!
#2) Remove that blinding white wall paint and flooring and repaint the entire house with some deep, strong earth tones both inside and out.
#3) Add some exotic wood flooring and redo the kitchen to a more Contemporary – Italian style…
and then yes, only then would it be in my (high) style.
All of my personal residences are styled according to their enviroment:
1. Addison Mizner influence in Miami as my residence there is an overly detailed, correct to the letter replica of his more famous mansions.
2. Contemporary industrial loft with sharp, clean lines and Ultra Modern furnishings for my W Village converted warehouse loft.
3. My Denver residence is a highly renovated, period Arts and Crafts bungalow designed using period references from that cities beyond spectacular bungalows. It is beautifully designed with enormous rooms and furnished with original and top grade reproduction period furniture… most from the Stickley Collection. All interior and exterior lighting are all refurbished Mission pieces.
Now with the planned purchase of this amazing Astor St property (I am getting some very positive feedback from the two competing families over the combo Miami penthouse…bidding wars?) my plans are to go with all original Art Nouveau and Art Deco pieces carefully mixed with a few choice severe modern pieces.
The only thing that sort of bothers me in this Astor property is the small kitchen…nicely set up but still way too small for my needs. I have decided I will just have to make it work as I will not comprise the design or replace any portion of this beautiful home.
So, finally your assumptions about me are getting closer and closer to what I really do admire and feel comfortable with.
But come on now, seriously the $5 million dollar residence done up in this horrible Perla Lichi manner is just so…retarded.
Money does not buy you class!!!
clio,
Sure it is close to my taste but first lets:
#1) Take away ALL of the garish Liberace/Vegas ballroom furnishings…check out those hideous drapes and fabric all over!!
#2) Remove that blinding white wall paint and flooring and repaint the entire house with some deep, strong earth tones both inside and out.
#3) Add some exotic wood flooring and redo the kitchen to a more Contemporary – Italian style…
and then yes, only then would it be in my (high) style.
All of my personal residences are styled according to their enviroment:
1. Addison Mizner influence in Miami as my residence there is an overly detailed, correct to the letter replica of his more famous mansions.
2. Contemporary industrial loft with sharp, clean lines and Ultra Modern furnishings for my W Village converted warehouse loft.
3. The Denver residence is a highly renovated, period Arts and Crafts bungalow designed using period references from that cities beyond spectacular bungalows. It is beautifully designed with enormous rooms and furnished with original and top grade reproduction period furniture… most from the Stickley Collection. All interior and exterior lighting are all refurbished Mission pieces.
Now with the planned purchase of this amazing Astor St property (I am getting some very positive feedback from the two competing families over the combo Miami penthouse…bidding wars?) my plans are to go with all original Art Nouveau and Art Deco pieces carefully mixed with a few choice severe modern pieces.
The only thing that sort of bothers me in this Astor property is the small kitchen…nicely set up but still way too small for my needs. I have decided I will just have to make it work as I will not comprise the design or replace any portion of this beautiful home.
So, finally your assumptions about me are getting closer and closer to what I really do admire and feel comfortable with.
But come on now, seriously the $5 million dollar residence done up in this horrible Perla Lichi manner is just so…retarded.
Money does not buy you class!!!
when you pay 700 percent markup, over cost, for a bag, you are buying image and not quality. Same exact bag, materials, manufacturer, change the LV to LW, and you wouldn’t touch it. So then if he above is true, and it is, it’s all about image and sending a message.
When i waste money i don’t fool myself as to why. Sometimes ya just gotta.
“But come on now, seriously the $5 million dollar residence done up in this horrible Perla Lichi manner is just so…retarded.”
calling madeline….madeline, where are you?
“Money does not buy you class!!!”
I see someone is a fan of the real housewives of new york!!!