Live in the Heart of Roscoe Village: 2232 W. Roscoe
This 2-bedroom condo at 2232 W. Roscoe is right in the heart of the Roscoe Village neighborhood with its restaurants and shops.
It has an updated kitchen with maple cabinets, granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances.
The unit has hardwood floors throughout and outdoor space so you can grill in the summer.
It also has central air and in-unit washer/dryer. It doesn’t have parking, however.
The unit has been on and off the market nearly a year and is now listed for $20,100 under the 2006 purchase price.
Elizabeth Stark at Baird & Warner has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #3: 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, no square footage listed
- Sold in December 2004 for $283,000
- Sold in May 2006 for $345,000
- Originally listed in April 2009
- Reduced several times
- Currently listed at $324,900
- Assessments of $250 a month
- Taxes of $3953
- Bedroom #1: 15×11
- Bedroom #2: 13×10
I like $275,000 for this one. I’m sure the owners wouldn’t take that however, but that’s the level of correction that has occurred. What an FB if there ever was one.
This is going back to around $250k. 2/1 and no parking. Might as well rent.
1/1s and 2/1s without parking (laundrys, CA, etc) are simply a bad idea unless you are a perpetually single or an old lady with cats and plan to live there 15 years.
Pretty nice for an over-the-store apt but that’s still just what it is. People really don’t want to buy places like this at all. It will always be a rental-grade apt. And with no parking, no less. You can tell how bubbly things got back there by the number of over-the-store conversions. Idiots with such a conversion on Devon are still trying to peddle them for $160K even though scores of more desirable comparables in nice buildings are being offered for less.
It’s nice enough but there’s nothing here that justifies a price of more than $225K.
$225K for a decent vintage conversion of a 2/1 in RV (on Roscoe no less) is simply not realistic. This would easily sell for $275K to $290K if the seller were willing to reduce the list price to below $300K.
Yep, it’s an apartment. I’d love to own this as a rental unit though, but it’d probably be impossible to get it at rent-own parity.
“This is going back to around $250k. 2/1 and no parking. Might as well rent.”
“$225K for a decent vintage conversion of a 2/1 in RV (on Roscoe no less) is simply not realistic.”
Of course not, but Laura places a meaningful discount on anything away from the lake.
#2 at the same address is also listed. For $329k. Assessment is listed as $3/mo less and taxes as $194 more. #2 listing claims “Looks good for FHA spot approval”. They paid $334 in May-07.
I find this type of building incredibly depressing. I can’t believe anyone spent over $300,000 for this.
Doesn’t FHA spot approval no longer exist?
Oh Noez! Its the ghetto!!!!
Jenny on March 2nd, 2010 at 12:00 pm
I find this type of building incredibly depressing. I can’t believe anyone spent over $300,000 for this.
Looks like someone had a baby. Time to move to Naperville.
Every time I see a baby’s crib and a 2/1 2006 purchase I think: Why didn’t you just rent? The rent/buy parity was waaaaaaay out of whack in by the time 2006 rolled around; what in the world led them to believe it was a great idea to pay $345k for a 2/1 condo conversion? They could have rented a 2/1 probably within a 2 block radius, and then saved up a biggie downpayment, and they’d own a SFH today complete with a yard for junior.
“Looks like someone had a baby. Time to move to Naperville.”
Maybe they bought the house on Bell?
(Yes, I know, it wasn’t them. And they are most likely headed to Naperville or wherever.)
WTF, not the ghetto. RV is a great family and older single neighborhood!!
“They could have rented a 2/1 probably within a 2 block radius, and then saved up a biggie downpayment, and they’d own a SFH today complete with a yard for junior.”
Yes, they could have bought the SFH down the street for 630K and you guys would have then been ripping on them and saying they were “FB”. Or suggesting that instead of buying that SFH they should move to a suburb or far northwest of the city.
At least the new owner of the single family home doesn’t live in an apartment building.
2/1’s are for rental, especially this one. Give me a break. Whoever bought it for the 2006 price was a complete moron.
“Whoever bought it for the 2006 price was a complete moron.”
But the 2006 seller was a genius whose gross return was over 14%/annum.
There are plenty of ‘deals’ all around the city but the ‘deals’ have yet to hit Roscoe Village. Oh, don’t fret, they are coming and there’s nothing you will be able to do to stop it. The ‘deals’ are like the barbarians at the gate of rome just waiting to crash this party. The lower prices started in the exurbs, and then moved into the exclusive exurbs, and then into the suburbs, and then into the fancy suburbs, and like an advancing army, into the city limits, and into the north side, the westside, the southside, and it’s surrounding the ‘green zone’ just watching, waiting, for a weak link in the barrier around the ‘green zone’ prices.
Of particular note, prices the neighborhood where I grew up, about 25 miles NW of the city, still cook county, are better than prices. They’re cheaper today than they were when my parents sold in 1999. In fact, every property that’s sold in the last 6 months sold for less than childhood home which my parents disposed of in 1999. These lower prices are headed this way, there’s no avoiding, RV, LV, LP, they’re making a final stand against the barbarians of lower prices, but it’s futile to stop the advances of affordability.
“Yes, they could have bought the SFH down the street for 630K and you guys would have then been ripping on them and saying they were “FB”. Or suggesting that instead of buying that SFH they should move to a suburb or far northwest of the city.”
that is a depressing picture. i need to go watch joe zekas’s vid on deming (shot on a nice summer day) to recover.
I think this is fun to watch.
I know so many people who had all of their wealth in real estate, and they bragged and gloated about it, and now look at what’s happening. It’s similar to the tech boom and bust.
http://www.chicagosuburbs-homes.com/January3010_Foreclosures_northwest_suburbs_chicago.html
Foreclosure deals in the NW suburbs; look at these ‘deals’ and tell me how long before these ‘deals’ reach the ‘green zone’; I’m not talking the outer counties here, this is prime NW real estate located throughout the county. The best picture I can conjure up is like an army advancing, or swarming from multiple angles, upon the green zone, as it makes one final stand. There’s nothing different about the ‘green zone’ or the people who live there except their address says ‘Chicago’ rather than ‘Prospect Hts.’; city people aren’t necessarily wealthier, or have higher incomes or save better. The green zone prices will be under attack soon enough, and they’re fight hard, just like Andy Shaw says “I don’t have to sell”; but many causalities prices will eventually fall and sellers will capitulate.
It’s inevitable.
yeah I had a friend who was bragging about his 100% financed “million dollar realestate portfolio” with some extra 2-3 houses in florida he didn’t even bother to rent out (even though I told him to rent them out)
needless to say he went BK, and he got a nice big “don’t you remember I told you to be careful dude” from me.
he was saying that there was a huge line for the model development and people at the end of the line were asking people walking out how much they were paying and bidding them higher up to people that just walked out of the sales center!
Imagine that, be first in line, buy a condo and make a quick 20k!
It was then I knew something was terribly terribly wrong and I decided to stay out of the real estate game until prices got a little less out of whack
Also HD, you can’t compare the burbs to the city. They are all the same pretty much so why pay extra for a place in Schaumburg when you can live in MP or Palatine or anywhere similar (and they are ALL similar) for much less?
The city is much different as depending on what location there are several convienence factors and monetary factors you need to take into account. some of them mainly being able to get around without a car, shorter distance to work, recreation, etc. The burbs are all “substitute goods” so the prices you saw dropping first in the exurbs and now in the suburbs are not surprising.
“this is prime NW real estate”
To me, there is NO SUCH THING.
““Whoever bought it for the 2006 price was a complete moron.”
But the 2006 seller was a genius whose gross return was over 14%/annum.”
Absolutely! Or a combination of genius and luck, tough to differentiate. In any case he was a winner.
The 2006 purchaser was a loser. Its time to separate the wheat from the chaff yet our government doesn’t want the chaff to pay the price for their bad decision making. I thought capitalism was all about winners and losers and the ensuing rewards and consequences, respectively, of those decisions. Yet I suppose if enough losers jump off a bridge in tandem the government wants to step in and pretend everything is alright.
Roscoe Village is one of the ‘hip’ hoods where Lincoln Park trixies and mommies move after they feel old walking into LP boutiques next to younger trixies. Its ugly architecture and theres few redeeming qualities about it.
This building is an ugly POS. I wish FHA loans weren’t there to bail out people such as this.
Let it ride. No one should be bailed out. Let the market correct itself so this and many other northside buildings become rental again. Let the owners all default and lose what they had in it. Pure capitalism at its best.
“yeah I had a friend who was bragging about his 100% financed “million dollar realestate portfolio” with some extra 2-3 houses in florida he didn’t even bother to rent out (even though I told him to rent them out)
needless to say he went BK, and he got a nice big “don’t you remember I told you to be careful dude” from me.”
What are you talking about? He got a free million dollar chip from the Monte Carlo casino (ie: XYZ bank) for the roulette wheel. It obviously landed on the wrong color. But he’s not out any money for this–just a temporarily shot credit score.
With any very high-LTV financing, its heads you win tails the bank loses in situations like this. And you might as well lever up as much as possible at the highest possible LTV as if you’re right you get the extra returns, if you’re wrong there is no incremental hit to your credit score from having a $200k foreclosure or a $1MM foreclosure.
You friend was perfectly economically rational. He just speculated wrong is all. Blame the system for giving him the free million dollar chip.
What if you work at Motorola? and have a job making $100k a year or more like some of my friends?
Or what if you work at Aon in Glenview and make $100k a year plus? Why live in Lakeview and drive to Glenview to make $100k when you can live in Glenview and have a 10 minute drive to work?
Or what if you work as an attorney for Zurich in Schaumburg?
Or what if you are in management at Kemper Insurance in Kildeer and make $120k a year?
Or what if you work for Mesirow Finanacial in Oak Brook and pull down half a mil? are you really going commute from LP to Oak Brook everyday?
There is no difference between the people who live in the city or the suburbs, a lot of where you live happens to be where you work.
“Sonies on March 2nd, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Also HD, you can’t compare the burbs to the city. They are all the same pretty much so why pay extra for a place in Schaumburg when you can live in MP or Palatine or anywhere similar (and they are ALL similar) for much less?
“There is no difference between the people who live in the city or the suburbs, a lot of where you live happens to be where you work. ”
no shit sherlock, whats your point? There’s more jobs in the city than the burbs (density wise anyway) and more amenities in the city. Are you really saying there’s no difference between green zone hoods and the NW burbs? If so, you’re dumber than I thought.
Ahhh I just saw the crib! Did the happy couple foresee that they might be expanding their family in the future when they bought this? Did it ever enter their mind that the market might turn?
Did they ever foresee that they might have a problem with private school tuition if the great CPS system and assigned school was not up to their exacting standards?
My guess is one of the couple bought it (66% chance the woman, given their nesting instinct and from recent stats), got married. Then kid comes along and they want to hightail out to the burbs.
But noone explained to the person that bought it their nesting instinct might exceed their common sense. The RE machine was in full swing when they bought and everyone was telling them to buy now or be priced out forever. So they buy an apartment in a building that looks like an ugly municipal building and pay an egregious sum for it. But in their mind its okay because the previous owner also paid an egregious sum, but just 20% less.
So they ignore rental parity and just assume everything is great because math is hard and RE is the path to riches, and they don’t want to be seen as the renter among their social circle. Ballers own renters watch from the sidelines.
And here I am still watching 😀
“Are you really saying there’s no difference between green zone hoods and the NW burbs?”
No, he’s saying the NW burbs are a better value proposition for the things he likes.
“if you work for Mesirow Finanacial in Oak Brook and pull down half a mil”
You ain’t living in the NW burbs if you work in OB and make $500k.
I have one friend who happened to take a job making $65k a year working for a property casualty insurer. If you got a wife and kid and bills to pay would you turn down a $65k a year job with an insurance company in the suburbs or would you hold out for a higher paying insurance job in the city? or would you commute? I’m not defending the suburbs or making it out to be a greater place, but the fact of the matter is that there have been price declines in the suburbs, and in some case massive declines, and the trend seems be that prices declines have been working from the exurbs into the suburbs into the fringe areas of the city, into the regular city ‘hoods like the barbarians at the gates of Rome, price declines, geographically, seem to be positioning themselves outside the gates of the ‘green zone’. there is nothing inherently ‘better’ about the green zone that will cause it to keep it’s value. Even RV from from the two threads today have shown some declines, and those declines are about to accelerate, in the same manner they have from Antioch down to Addison, to Albany Park. Geographically the ‘green zone’ is surrounded by price declines. You tell me.
The one thing green zone hoods have going for them that the burbs never will is that the green zone hoods will always have a steady stream of transplants from all across the midwest.
People move from bumblef___ nebraska/ohio/iowa/etc to green zone hoods in the city not to any sort of Chicago burb.
If these people wanted a suburban experience they could just move to the nearest city’s burb (omaha/cleveland/davenport) and watch the same crap movies at the Lowe’s and eat the same appetizers at chili’s but save a crap ton of money and have a far better lifestyle (less traffic, less taxes, etc).
“There is no difference between the people who live in the city or the suburbs, a lot of where you live happens to be where you work. ”
Sure there is, it’s just all about what you value. If boring monotony, strip malls and chain restaurants is ok with you to get more space, better schools for the kiddies and maybe an easier commute, by all means. For me, none of those things are a priority. Even if I worked in Schaumburg (and I did, and commuted from LV for a long time), I’d never live out there.
So there’s no inherent difference, it’s just X priorities vs Y priorities.
“Even if I worked in Schaumburg (and I did, and commuted from LV for a long time), I’d never live out there.”
I lived out in Schaumburg for one summer for the commute to work. Never again. I even interviewed for jobs out in Schaumburg (more than 1) got offers for more $$$ but declined. Its great interview practice but the commute will wear you down.
I think some burbs are indeed better than others but Schaumburg is about as vanilla, bereft of culture and soulless as they come.
I’m saying that geographically the green zone is surrounded by price declines. If you think that tall buildings and higher densities will prevent price declines on par with the surrounding areas you are kidding yourself.
_____________________________
“Are you really saying there’s no difference between green zone hoods and the NW burbs?”
No, he’s saying the NW burbs are a better value proposition for the things he likes.”
“What if you work at Motorola?”
dont worry about that cause you wont be working there that long they keep cutting jobs.
“If you think that tall buildings and higher densities will prevent price declines on par with the surrounding areas you are kidding yourself.”
So, you’re predicting 70% price declines, like in some of the “surrounding areas”?
eg: http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2718-W-Haddon-Ave-60622/home/13288976 from $290k to $90,500 in 3 years, 13 days.
Or are you predicting $200k+ price declines for below-average SFHs (and slightly more for above-average shfs) in the “green zone”? b/c I could get behind that, or even slightly more.
““What if you work at Motorola?”
dont worry about that cause you wont be working there that long they keep cutting jobs.”
They can always leverage their industry knowledge to work at a Verizon kiosk at Woodfield mall.
How I will laugh when your green zone properties fall just as hard as the rest of the county. I’ll remember this thread.
I like the city more than the suburbs too, but, that doesn’t mean that 2/3rds of the population of the chicagoland MSA is ‘wrong’ because they live outside of the city limits.
You all tend to forget that 40 years ago the city emptied out and everyone moved to the suburbs. You forget that all the new homes in areas like RV, LV, WP, BT and to some LP were 100 year old crappy teardowns. Much of the housing stock became all crappy and decrepit because the city was a dangerous craphole for a number of years. It’s been a fairly recent phenomenon to return to the city but not everyone is sold on it. In fact, many many companies have headquarters in the suburbs, not the city, including Kraft, Motorola, Discover, Mesirow Financial, Shure, and the list goes on and on.
No one argues that the city is more lively and that the suburbs are bland. however, there are plenty of well paying jobs there and some people, in fact, millions of them value a shorter commute time than living in the ‘green zone’.
“Shure”
i thought it was in chicago still by wildwood hood? maybe thats not the HQ
Niles
Kraft is in glenview right? off willow?
We have two debunked motorola workers at my company.
anyone else have those transplants?
Northbrook
Oh I forgot Abbott is on the north shore. You’d actually be surprised how many people commute from the city to abbott every day, wasting gas, time, money and years of their life just sitting on traffic on 41. Nope, can’t buy a house in Libertyville, must destroy the environment and spend money/time/resources commuting nearly 75 miles round trip to far north suburbs. That amazes me.
“Mesirow Financial”
Dude, they’re the anchor tenant at 353 N Clark. Which, last I checked, has a 606 zip code.
“Shure”
It’s not *quite* across the street from the city, but a CTA bus stops directly out front. The shortest commute from a residence is from Chicago.
How many of those companies moved from the city to the ‘burbs in the last 20 years? Sara Lee did, but who else?
“Oh I forgot Abbott is on the north shore. You’d actually be surprised how many people commute from the city to abbott every day, wasting gas, time, money and years of their life just sitting on traffic on 41. Nope, can’t buy a house in Libertyville, must destroy the environment and spend money/time/resources commuting nearly 75 miles round trip to far north suburbs. That amazes me.”
I’m not saying I’d do this, but your inability to realize that people have priorities that aren’t 100% centered around their commute to work kind of amazes me. Yes, it’s a big thing, no, it’s not the end-all-be-all of which every decision for where you live should be based upon.
“You’d actually be surprised how many people commute from the city to abbott every day, wasting gas, time, money and years of their life just sitting on traffic on 41”
My ex started a job at abbott before i dropped her. They offered her a sweet sign-on package and $$$ to move closer, plus $$$ to rent close while finding a place to buy. The genius she was wanted turned it down and the $$$ and moved from the western burbs to around north ave and hasted area.
CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT COMMUTE?
so you can see why she got the axe? (beetching about traffic, always tired, complaining she cant find parking, then complaing about monthly parking so expensive)
“Nope, can’t buy a house in Libertyville, must destroy the environment and spend money/time/resources commuting nearly 75 miles round trip ”
Buying a house in Libertyville helps to destroy the environment, too.
I know people who do/have done the reverse Metra commute to Lake Forest, etc., so they aren’t all doing anything different from what you’d do if you lived in Barrington, HD.
I expect most of the Abbott BSDs live in Lake Forest, anyway. And have their in-town. But Lake Forest isn’t NW, last I checked.
This thread isn’t going anywhere. I realize this is a green zone centric blog and all but I’m just saying that there is nothing a priori or inherently special about the green zone that ensures or guarantees that it will be immune from the price declines that surround it geographically. When homes like the one on Bell st. sell for $630k which is a lot of money, but, less than the previous bubble price, to me this is like Custer’s last stand, there’s one last FB out there willing to overpay to live in the Green zone in the city.
/thread closed
“all but I’m just saying that there is nothing a priori or inherently special about the green zone that ensures or guarantees that it will be immune from the price declines that surround it geographically.”
And if/when that comes to pass, you’ll still whine about how neighborhood X is too expensive because you can buy a bigger house in Palatine for 25% less.
“I’m just saying that there is nothing a priori or inherently special about the green zone that ensures or guarantees that it will be immune from the price declines that surround it geographically.”
Again both Groove and I gave examples of the kind of demand that will still exist and this is enabled by high-LTV FHA loans on the low end. If you think there isn’t a ready supply of idiots like Groove’s ex who work in the burbs, probably grew up in the burbs, but want to live in the CITAYYYY you’re wrong.
I even have a friend who recently had a kid and he moved to a non-green zone hood on the SW side to be near his inlaws (to help with childrearing/etc). When I asked him about why he doesn’t move to the burbs he said matter of factly he was quite glad his in-laws lived in the city as he values that city address.
All this means HD is that the disparity that already exists between city and suburban housing will continue to widen. And for people like you who don’t a suburban address will be able to get much more for your money and somebody stuck on some meaningless status symbol they’ve contrived in their head or social circle.
“If you think there isn’t a ready supply of idiots like Groove’s ex who work in the burbs, probably grew up in the burbs, but want to live in the CITAYYYY you’re wrong”
example 2;
I had a friend who lived over buy state and chicago. He walked to work while his wife drove out west to Sugar Grove or owswego or something out there.
There are different points:
1. HD argues that the green zone places are still more bubbly than the ever popular NW suburbs. I don’t know how true this is but I do find this to be a useful claim and reasonable point to think about. As is the issue of whether the green zones are more prone to bubbles.
2. This gets conflated with the “why doesn’t everyone just move to Rolling Meadows” point. I don’t find this terribly useful. There will be a premium for parts of the city to those suburbs. How much of a premium is maybe a reasonable question (although I think the pricier suburbs are the ones that are the right benchmark), but tends to get lost in the shouting.
3. The desirability of the city versus suburbs over the longer/historic run is also very interesting to me. But they do not get answered by the “why don’t we all go be in house counsel for Motorola/etc.” arguments.
“I don’t find this terribly useful. ”
How droll.
“I think the pricier suburbs are the ones that are the right benchmark”
At least wrt SFHs east of the river, it certainly is.
One more problem is conflating/equating the “Green Zone” market (mainly condos, bought mainly by typical condo buyers, ie people w/o kids) with the “typical” suburb (ie NW burbs, L’ville, N’ville, rather than the W’s, Hinsdale, etc.) market (almost entirely SFHs, bought mainly by typical SFH buyers, ie families). They just aren’t going to act quite the same way, just as the market in Englewood isn’t going to act like Old Town, or Ford Heights act like Kenilworth.
SO anon(tfo) you’re saying that people without kids/condo owners have higher paying jobs than the suburbanite in the next cubicle/office over? Why else can city dwellers afford higher priced condos as compared to their suburbanite co-workers?
“Why else can city dwellers afford higher priced condos as compared to their suburbanite co-workers?”
Uh … lower expenses? … different priorities in spending their money?
If the you in the office next door (evil HD) placed a lower priority on saving (maybe b/c evil HD knows he won’t have kids–hell, we should just call evil HD “Sonies”) than real HD and had no student loans unlike real HD, evil HD could better “afford” to buy a $400k place to live than real HD.
Evil HD might even choose to spend that money on an over-improved apartment in a “prime” location that lets him walk to work in 15 minutes (or cab for $6) and impress all the sluts (male, female, or ovine) that he picks up at the bars nearby. And he can avoid having a car, which frees up a bunch of $$ to allocate to housing expenses/prophylactics/savings/OTB/whatever.
You totally left out the expense side of the ledger. Kind of like (almost) every politician.
“SO anon(tfo) you’re saying that people without kids/condo owners have higher paying jobs than the suburbanite in the next cubicle/office over? Why else can city dwellers afford higher priced condos as compared to their suburbanite co-workers?”
Because KIDS ARE EXPENSIVE DUMBASS!!!
“Because KIDS ARE EXPENSIVE DUMBASS!!!”
I’m calling you Evil HD from now on. Would you call it a goatee, or more of a van dyck?
I’m not evil 🙁
But if I was, I guess I would try to grow one of those neckbeard things
HD would wear a ‘bottom beard’ on his face
bahahaha
“I’m not evil”
South Park. The “evil” stan, kyle, eric and kenny all had beards.
Could have gone with the bizarro/DC comics reference, but “Evil HD” somehow fits better.
HD, Bob got it pretty nailed with:
“The one thing green zone hoods have going for them that the burbs never will is that the green zone hoods will always have a steady stream of transplants from all across the midwest.”
As long as Detroit, St. Louie, Indianapolis, etc. are hemorrhaging their college grads, Chicago will be in good shape. Besides the job base (still relatively good), we have the cultural appeal, the lakefront, etc.
I don’t think anyone will ever make money betting against Chicago real estate in the long run.
Where’s G when you need him. Let’s add Midwestern Transplants to the list of market saviors who will ensure that the green zone will hold up better than other areas of the county.
(never mind the fact that college graduate employment is dismal)
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/14/business/la-fi-jobs-graduates14-2009dec14
“#skeptic on March 3rd, 2010 at 10:43 am
HD, Bob got it pretty nailed with:
“The one thing green zone hoods have going for them that the burbs never will is that the green zone hoods will always have a steady stream of transplants from all across the midwest.”
As long as Detroit, St. Louie, Indianapolis, etc. are hemorrhaging their college grads, Chicago will be in good shape. Besides the job base (still relatively good), we have the cultural appeal, the lakefront, etc.
I don’t think anyone will ever make money betting against Chicago real estate in the long run.”
“the green zone will hold up better than other areas of the county”
The green zone *will* remain more expensive than the parts of the county you persist in comparing it to, as apples to orangutangs.
What metric are you going to use to “show” that whatever-Chicago-‘hood has declined as much as whatever-NW-burb? Or are you going to rely on the un-disprovable anecdote?
If you are saying that the CS condo index (which I expect overweights to “green zone”) will fall at least as much as the general Chicago CS index (overweighted to ‘burbs, bc its SFH only), then you’ll almost certainly end up correct. If you’re saying that random property X in prime LP will sell for as much off peak as random property Y in Palatine did/does, you will *also* almost certainly correct.
But neither of those things is what you seem to be arguing, and prove FAR too little.
it’s not apples to orangutangs, it’s apples to apples, it’s all housing all within reasonable commuting distance of the same job market. People live in the suburbs and commute to the city, and vice versa.
The only example you gave yesterday was that city residents choose to spend more on housing than their suburban counterparts to explain why it’s more expensive in the city to live than in the suburbs. Like bob said, a lot of the green zone is merely just a transitional point for people on their way out to the suburbs anyways.
the green zone isn’t going to be cheap just like for example a nice home in evanston won’t be cheap, but, the prices in the green zone are still bubbly.
“the green zone isn’t going to be cheap just like for example a nice home in evanston won’t be cheap, but, the prices in the green zone are still bubbly.”
You say that “prices” are “too high” and say “look at this POS in Palatine (or wherever), everything else is going to drop JUST AS MUCH”. Yeah, and I can find a whole bunch of POS’s in *other* burbs or in the city (in which I would *also* not live) that have dropped by 90+% w/o being gutted or otherwise destroyed; does that imply anything for a desireable property, in a desireable location? Yeah, I know it does, but it sure as hell doesn’t mean that there’s any reasonable likelihood of the desireable property dropping anything close to 90%.
There will continue to be a large pool of people in Chicago who will pay a premium to live somewhere that you don’t value at a premium–that’s good for you, as it means that places you find more than acceptable will have fewer bidders. And that, plus the on-going decrease in the number of people able to “afford” to pay the premium will lead to fewer bidders in those “premium” areas, which does lead to longer market times and lower selling prices than the alternative where there are too many idiots chasing “too few” (by their idiot perception only) properties.
anon(tfo) i feel like you are i are passing each other in the wind, and this particular academic debate is getting tiring
we can resume this some other time on another property
It’s not apples to apples because the markets have different supply and demand factors. You can argue how similar the two are to each other, but they are different. Different housing stock. Different priorities in terms of proximity of transportation and conveniences. Different people looking to buy. Different times in their lives. Different sources of incomes.
So yes, the green zone is bubbly most likely. But old money Lincoln Park laughs at your barbarians at the gates.
Are you saying that the north shore with it’s venerable old money culture is also immune to price declines?
Old money, let’s add that to the list:
************
12. midwestern transplants
13. old money
“But old money Lincoln Park laughs at your barbarians at the gates.”
“Are you saying that the north shore with it’s venerable old money culture is also immune to price declines?”
Do you read so selectively all of the time, or just here? Because b (basically) agreed with you that LP is bubbly.
You’ve staked out such an extreme position (that b/c there are cheap f/cs in Palatine and other “prime” (hahaha) NW burbs, there will be comparable %age declines in LP/GC/etc) that you can’t defend it w/o taking things out of context.
“Are you saying that the north shore with it’s venerable old money culture is also immune to price declines”
Clearly I didn’t say that. Clearly I typed something else.
And I don’t even think Lincoln Park Old Money is IMMUNE to price declines. I just think Lincoln Park is a different animal than even north shore ‘burbs. Thus, not apples to apples.
HD’s basic problem is a child of the suburbs he projects his perception/contention that childhood in the City is miserable.
it isn’t. City infrastructure still beats the blech car-centric exurbs IMO, I’d shoot myself in the head if I had to live in one of those no-sidewalk, spend 15 minutes in traffic just to get a loaf of bread, cookie-cutter exurbs.
“I’d shoot myself in the head if I had to live in one of those no-sidewalk, spend 15 minutes in traffic just to get a loaf of bread, cookie-cutter exurbs.”
But what about NW Cook County (which, really, is edge city, not exurbs)? Don’t you realize it’s just minutes away from rich people in Barrington Hills? And directly west of rich people in NT? How can it suck if rich people live (sort of) nearby? And the high schools are more diverse than Clemente, b/c they have fewer white kids than Clemente has “hispanics”, and you *know* that if you live in the city that Clemente is the best school that your kids could possibly go to, no matter where you live in the city, unless you’re connected (ie, you bribe someone) or you pay for them to go to Parker/Latin.
i know you’re being sarcastic but there’s a lot of truth to what you’re saying. yet, the city still (tenuously and precariously) commands a bubbly premium to those same suburbs of which you jest. time will tell.
“#anon (tfo) on March 3rd, 2010 at 12:44 pm
“I’d shoot myself in the head if I had to live in one of those no-sidewalk, spend 15 minutes in traffic just to get a loaf of bread, cookie-cutter exurbs.”
But what about NW Cook County (which, really, is edge city, not exurbs)? Don’t you realize it’s just minutes away from rich people in Barrington Hills? And directly west of rich people in NT? How can it suck if rich people live (sort of) nearby? And the high schools are more diverse than Clemente, b/c they have fewer white kids than Clemente has “hispanics”, and you *know* that if you live in the city that Clemente is the best school that your kids could possibly go to, no matter where you live in the city, unless you’re connected (ie, you bribe someone) or you pay for them to go to Parker/Latin.”
“there’s a lot of truth to what you’re saying”
And you prove skeptic accurate.
? what are you talking about?
i’m just saying that the argument that ‘it’s different here’ in the green zone doesn’t carry much weight, if that’s what people are trying to say, but these are going off on such tangets, i can’t even keep track any more.
“But what about NW Cook County”
its not the “green zone”
“it’s all housing all within reasonable commuting distance of the same job market.”
Groove already mentioned that younger people don’t always prioritize commute time. Remember kiddos living in the green zone are in mate finding stage of their life. And trust me: if you have any sort of intelligence at all you aren’t going to meet Mr. or Mrs. right at the Alumni Club bar in Schaumburg.
“(never mind the fact that college graduate employment is dismal)”
Recently college grads who are transplants are indeed a demand factor. As I’m willing to bet even though employment is dismal, that’s not the right fact. The right fact is how dismal is the employment situation is for recent college grads vs. wherever they came from. You seem to forget the rest of the rust belt is pretty pathetic these days and someone may move here to be a bartender or be a barista at starucks, too.
If jobs are down 50% but the number of transplants is up 150% that’s increased demand.
This is the prevailing “Wisdom” that society gets brainwashed with:
“I’d shoot myself in the head if I had to live in one of those no-sidewalk, spend 15 minutes in traffic just to get a loaf of bread, cookie-cutter exurbs.”
But Chicago has the same car-culture, visit Elston, North/Clybourn, Roosevelt Rd. to see it in action. Target, Costco, Dominicks, Jewel, etc. Most Chicagoans drive to shop!
However it’s my experience with friends that the experience of living in subdivisions is more conducive to creating relationships and friendships with neighbors: Super Bowl parties, BBQs, poker games, wives and children hang out, etc.
This contrasts greatly with urban living where diversity hinders this basic social process. According to Robert Putnam: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/
I know people in the burbs that have a great time with their lives and have far more new friends than their urban counterparts.
“However it’s my experience with friends that the experience of living in subdivisions is more conducive to creating relationships and friendships with neighbors: Super Bowl parties, BBQs, poker games, wives and children hang out, etc. ”
Sounds like my neighborhood. In the city.
anon tfo: I’ll trade places! People in my multi-unit building are so diverse, that nobody really has much in common and no real friendships seem to develop. My Filipino neighbor has nothing in common with the Indian doctor, who has nothing in common with the Polish immigrants, who have nothing in common with the young single guy, etc.
“anon tfo: I’ll trade places!”
Well, the biggest common denominator around me is kids. And there are always the people who keep to themselves, even in the most social subdivision.
But i’d put more of the disconnect (realtive to the past) down to fewer people at home all day (two-job HHs), lower church attendance, and general higher mobility, at least as much as bare ethnicity.
And yes, I realize that the research controlled for all of those things and still found a significant effect–but that doesn’t mean that the *other* issues didn’t, collectively, have a greater impact (I see no indication that any other issues were studied, just controlled for), just that ethnic diversity–alone–had a significant impact. Which, I think, should be self-evident to any Chicagoan aware of the history of the city going back much further than the 60s. It’s like so many of the food/diet studies–it took you 5 years and grants for $x million to “prove” that? I could have told you that too much Y was bad for you in 10 seconds if you gave me a sawbuck.
“However it’s my experience with friends that the experience of living in subdivisions is more conducive to creating relationships and friendships with neighbors: Super Bowl parties, BBQs, poker games, wives and children hang out, etc. ”
In my neighborhood all of this takes place at the local tavern among the regulars. One thing I love about this city is the local tavern culture is still alive (at least in certain ‘hoods). Whereas in the rest of the midwest and possibly country, with its driving culture, drinking has been demonized by MADD and tavern culture is frowned upon.
I’m never going to live somewhere where the nearest bar is over a mile away again. Having lived where you need to drive to the local taverns before its not the same–you can never get sloshed and you always need to have eyes in the back of your head for the commute home.
“Well, the biggest common denominator around me is kids.”
Same on our street. Before we had a kid we used to ignore everyone. Now we are good casual friends with half the block.
Better weather also helps. Kids play outside when it’s nice out and we run into everyone. A Friday night impromptu pizza or Chinese takeout neighborhood gathering is common in the summer, as well as more organized potlucks.
Really a nice group of families with a fairly random mix of backgrounds. I fear we will miss this when we move into the green zone proper.
“But Chicago has the same car-culture, visit Elston, North/Clybourn, Roosevelt Rd. to see it in action. Target, Costco, Dominicks, Jewel, etc. Most Chicagoans drive to shop!”
I don’t disagree that lots of Chicagoans drive to shop, but the fact is that plenty of them do not. They didn’t put a Dominick’s next to to the Fullerton/Sheffield stop because people want to drive there.
And a good amount of what you are describing is the impact of a lot of suburban mindsets moving here in the past 25 years, actually. Target, Elston, etc. make a lot of we urbanites cringe.
Chicago is dense, even in the not-at-Manhattan zones, people will always be walking and taking PT just for convenience, even though it’s also true that some people will drive for the same reason.
The point is, in Chicago you don’t *need* a car (and I-Go and Zip cars for those who want one infrequently).
It’s the location, and the infrastructure, end of story. We aren’t going to be losing any ground to the Clevelands any time soon.
“Really a nice group of families with a fairly random mix of backgrounds. I fear we will miss this when we move into the green zone proper.”
You *might* miss out on the randomness of background, but not necessarily, even if you move into the heart of OT. There’s obviously somewhat less randomness (at least educationally and employment-wise) as you move into the mid-6-figure income bracket. Just need to find a block that has some family-sized rentals still.
““However it’s my experience with friends that the experience of living in subdivisions is more conducive to creating relationships and friendships with neighbors: Super Bowl parties, BBQs, poker games, wives and children hang out, etc. ””
my wife’s family is in the burbs, in a cul-de-sac’d area.
In almost 20 years of going out there, not ONCE have I ever seen people actually walking around, socializing, etc.
“In almost 20 years of going out there, not ONCE have I ever seen people actually walking around, socializing, etc.”
You just haven’t been invited to the key parties…
“You just haven’t been invited to the key parties”
good one.
it is true when you have kids you socialize more with the people you live around. For us we already did that before kids, due to us trying to make our neighborhood better and i coaching.
Anon,
hits on i big point…Two income HH, less church/community involvement, and “Me” thinking has people at a disconnect.
Skimmed a couple of articles on the diversity/community involvement point. Pretty interesting. Not fully the same issue as the city/suburbs decision, but related, and interesting.
There’s a highly stylized, but useful, model of communities that says we should all live with other people who want the same things. That way, we can all agree on how much to spend on schools and street cleaning and such:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiebout_model
“There’s a highly stylized, but useful, model of communities that says we should all live with other people who want the same things. That way, we can all agree on how much to spend on schools and street cleaning and such”
I think K’worth comes very close to this. Also other very small, very wealthy communuities. You might even be able to pull of something similar w/in Chicago (eg) if the individual wards were properly drawn and had control over certain taxation/spending elements. But there’s the issue of business-owners’ and their say about the tax they would inevitably pay, even if they don’t live in the community.
“I don’t disagree that lots of Chicagoans drive to shop, but the fact is that plenty of them do not. They didn’t put a Dominick’s next to to the Fullerton/Sheffield stop because people want to drive there.”
Exactly. They put one there so they could overcharge DePaul students. Brilliant location for them.
“Exactly. They put one there so they could overcharge DePaul students. Brilliant location for them.”
I’ve shopped there plenty and never found it to be out of line with any other Dominick’s around. Which isn’t to say it’s cheap, but I could still pick up a cooked rotisserie chicken for $6 for dinner.
“Exactly. They put one there so they could overcharge DePaul students. Brilliant location for them.”
Dominick’s is no Aldi to be sure, but it’s a brilliant location due to the heavy pedestrian traffic (I don’t think many LPers are flinching at “high Dominick’s prices”).
I’m old enough to remember the A&P on the kitty corner – anyone else? There was gobs of parking there, and much of it went unused, especially when it turned into a Blockbuster. The irony wasn’t lost on many folks when years later they realized the grocery store was needed and they tore down those tennis courts to make room for the Dominick’s.
Groceries in the city are a frickin rip man… I was looking at this advertisement for some Shnucks or whatever (I don’t remember why) and my god the food was half the cost at least compared to places around here
Go buy food at some non-chain supermarkets. Tony’s or Marketplace on Oakton, and some of the “ethnic” markets. They’re definitely quite a bit cheaper. We do that but then we blow all the savings buying $5 pieces of fruit at Whole Foods or, god help me, Fox and Obel.
I miss demon dogs 🙁
“Groceries in the city are a frickin rip man”
Everyone sez this, but it does not compute with my experience–what does everyone buy that is so much more expensive in the city? Maybe we just buy wierd stuff.
I read this awhile ago, and I never forgot it, it was so eye-opening to me. After this, I generally stopped ripping on the suburbs like hipster usually do.
“To get the City of Chicago to agree to help, we’d need to raise matching funds and sign up volunteer laborers. This kind of Robert D. Putnam-endorsed civic activity proved strikingly difficult in Uptown, however, precisely because of its remarkable diversity.”
“In the end, the middle class, English-speaking, native-born Americans (mostly white, but with plenty of black-white couples) did the bulk of the work.
And, after that struggle, everybody seemed to give up on trying to bring Uptown together for civic betterment.”
http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/diversity.htm
“what does everyone buy that is so much more expensive in the city?”
any meat at jewel or dominicks way over priced and quailty is crap compared to burbs Meyer’s (sp) and super target. same crappy quality meat but cheaper price.
A box of couscous at Jewel on State & Grand = $2.25
16oz jar of Prego spaghetti sauce = $5.29
1 lb of boneless chicken breasts = $6!!!!
just some things off the top of my head that aren’t very “wierd”
“any meat at jewel or dominicks way over priced”
Not sure about dominicks but jewell often runs specials where the meats are deeply discounted or buy 1 get one free. Also ditto on Tony’s that place rocks.
“any meat at jewel or dominicks way over priced and quailty is crap”
Well, there is that. I think we’ve bought meat at Dom/Jewel twice, the second time only b/c the first time we didn’t quite believe how bad it was.
“A box of couscous at Jewel on State & Grand = $2.25
16oz jar of Prego spaghetti sauce = $5.29
1 lb of boneless chicken breasts = $6!!!!”
The couscous I would just skip at that price and bulk-bin it somewhere else. Don’t buy nat’l brand jarred sauce so that’s a mystery to me, but def seems way too high relative to fancy brands. See above re meat and Dom/Jewel.
thx.
“I miss demon dogs”
Amen, that place was the best
dominicks and jewel are expensive because their employees are unionized and they get paid a living wage.
the cashier’s at the counter at Tony’s or the ethnic market are probably being paid close to minimum wage.
“DZ on March 3rd, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Go buy food at some non-chain supermarkets. Tony’s or Marketplace on Oakton, and some of the “ethnic” markets. They’re definitely quite a bit cheaper. We do that but then we blow all the savings buying $5 pieces of fruit at Whole Foods or, god help me, Fox and Obel.
“
“Well, there is that. I think we’ve bought meat at Dom/Jewel twice, the second time only b/c the first time we didn’t quite believe how bad it was”
I still on occasion buy meat at jewel on sale in the summer cause even the worst meat and be spectacular on the grill (kabob’s are BOGO like bob said).
I drive 5 miles to a butcher for our meat and drive 2 miles to a polish deli for luncheon meat and cheese. not cause of the cost (cost is negated by gas wasted and time spent in traffic) its the quality do it for.
“I miss demon dogs”
Amen, that place was the best”
wasnt the owner the band manager for chicago or something?
“wasnt the owner the band manager for chicago”
Yep. http://www.newcitychicago.com/chicago/2296.html
“kabob’s are BOGO”
Well, yeah, for that sort of thing, the more expensive stuff is basically a waste. But steaks, burgers, chicken, nowayman.
“The couscous I would just skip at that price”
you can bet your ass i’m skipping on a lot of stuff at those prices!