Looking for a Family-Sized Condo in a Downtown High Rise: 415 E. North Water in Streeterville
We were chattering recently about the perceived lack of large “family” type condos in downtown high rises where you could raise a few kids and enjoy high rise amenities like pools and party rooms.
A lot of new condo development still seems to be marketed to 20-somethings without kids who don’t need a lot of space.
See the chatter here.
This 3-bedroom in 415 E. North Water in Streeterville has been on the market since May.
It is slightly outside of the price range we chattered about which was $1.5 million to $2 million, but it appears to meet all the “unicorn” criteria that were mentioned.
The northwest corner unit has as much space as many single family homes with 3498 square feet.
It has generous bedroom sizes, including a large master suite, as well as a family room and an actual 10×7 laundry room (urban mommy- check out picture #23).
The kitchen has luxury stainless steel appliances, granite counter tops and a tile backsplash.
The building has everything that was mentioned including:
- indoor pool
- exercise room
- party room
- sauna
- bike room
- doorman
The unit even has 2-car parking.
To top it off, the listing says it’s in the Ogden school district.
Is this the perfect city family home for those with kids?
Elizabeth Ballis at Coldwell Banker has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #2506: 3 bedrooms, 3 baths, 3498 square feet
- Sold in November 2006 for $1,612,500
- Originally listed in May 2013 for $2.25 million
- Reduced
- Currently listed at $2.199 million
- Assessments of $1621 a month (includes pool, doorman, gas, cable)
- Taxes of $20,067
- Central Air
- Washer/dryer in the unit
- 2-car parking included
- Bedroom #1: 22×20
- Bedroom #2: 21×13
- Bedroom #3: 14×14
- Family room: 16×17
- Laundry room: 10×7
Family sized, but not family priced!
How many other similar sized places? Is the NW corner of every floor a similar unit?
Another part of the UC was that it be a family *building* (indeed, it was asked that the building *only* have family-sized units).
That is some quick turnaround, Sabrina!
Goes for 1.7
“Another part of the UC was that it be a family *building* (indeed, it was asked that the building *only* have family-sized units).”
This would not exist in today’s market. You will only find a building of all large units (other than a boutique building like 50 E. Chestnut which is a couple dozen full floor units) in the older vintage buildings which were meant to be family homes in the sky.
Although, a building like The Palmolive, which is out of the price range given here, is mainly a bunch of big units. There are a handful of one bedrooms and some 2/2s- but they are larger 2/2s.
“How many other similar sized places? Is the NW corner of every floor a similar unit?”
This building has plenty of large units including the one-bedrooms which are like 1000 square feet. It wasn’t built to have a bunch of people living in 700 square foot units.
I don’t know if every NW corner is the same but there is another on the market right now with the identical layout so I would assume that’s the case. And I don’t believe this is even the largest floor plan in the building (but others could correct me on that.)
“Family sized, but not family priced!”
Sure it is. She said she was looking for a north side single family home substitute. The north side house would cost between $1.5 and $2 million. So why not buy a condo instead?
Well- here is it.
“How many other similar sized places? Is the NW corner of every floor a similar unit?”
“This building has plenty of large units including the one-bedrooms which are like 1000 square feet. It wasn’t built to have a bunch of people living in 700 square foot units.”
I don’t think urban child is going to find a lot of playmates in the one beds, large though they may be. The same tier unit above this one is same layout. Don’t know about the others. There are some ~2,200 sf 3bd units, so that would give urban child some economic diversity among playmates.
“Another part of the UC”
Also, and I don’t know if this was required or merely strongly preferred, but not clear the storage is on the same floor here. There also doesn’t seem to be the communal dog washing area favored in nyc family-oriented buildings.
Also, I think the asspsf is slightly increasing w sf in this building.
“the asspsf is slightly increasing w sf in this building”
Crap. Decreasing. I meant decreasing.
Very, Very nice although some tile choices I don’t exactly agree with, that’s not an uber expensive fix.
Damn if only I was one of those big city lawyers and could afford this before I had kids!
My guess is that it goes for 1.75mil since $628 a sqft seems really steep for the level of finishes even for the area, $500 is more like it
Actually I don’t even think a fancy big city lawyer hot shot could afford this.
I retract… and let me wish I invented some sort of tech business and got bought out before I had kids so I could afford a place like this!
For anybody who cares, the overhead sewers are going in this week. What a mess. What’s an even bigger mess is that I have a floating slab foundation. There’s a 1″ gap between the foundation and the slab that goes down about 4 inches – it’s to accomdate a shifting foundation, but they dont’ really pour floating foundations much these days. There are (what I think are called) 1×6″ sleepers in between the foundation and the slab. Two inches above the slab, four inches below. The upper two inches are what the builders attached the basement paneling to, along with furings in the concrete. the biggest problem is the sleepers have started to dry rot pretty bad since the 2 floods – but only in the portion in the gap between the foundation and the slab. And the foundation has shifted over the years making it impossible to remove the dry rotted sleepers without literally chipping away at teh concrete foundation. But the dry rot obviously smells now that the walls have all been ripped out. I’ve managed to remove about 75-80% of the dry rotted wood but 20% I just can’t get too, or it’s wedged so firm into the gap that it’s not coming out. I’m thinking of just caulking over the 20% and trapping teh dry rot in the gap – and over time it will just rot away and the caulk will hold the smell; and 50 years from now when the basement is gutted again the new owners can just pull it out no problem.
I think you all would be surprised by how many kids already live in high rises throughout the city. I worked in one of the high end buildings downtown and there were at least 10 large families who lived there. There were many more families who used them as second homes and an actual family, with 7 kids, who used their 2 bed as an in-town (gasp!). I know in-towners don’t count as truly “living there,” but there were lots of grandchildren, nieces and nephews, actual residents and in-towner kids around and they all were buddies.
“Actually I don’t even think a fancy big city lawyer hot shot could afford this.”
Sure they could. An equity partner who had some savings and was comfortable about his/her prospects could (reasonably) buy this, right?
You must not be getting the right kind of fancy big city lawyer hot shot clients.
sounds like you’re rocking the suburbs HD
sorry you bought a money pit in a flood zone 🙁
“This would not exist in today’s market.”
But part of the UM UC was “I just don’t want to be the only family in a building so having a building in which all units are large is preferable.”, so apparently this unicorn does not exist.
I dunno DZ, that most certainly depends on a lot of variables although I’m sure there’s at least 1 age 30-35 lawyer somewhere in town that can afford this comfortably without help from parents/trust funds, etc.
and look out HD, teh poorz are coming! teh poorz are coming!
http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/poverty-growing-suburbs/story?id=19947415
“Sure they could. An equity partner who had some savings and was comfortable about his/her prospects could (reasonably) buy this, right?”
Sonies did include a time element, so it depends if Sonies hypothetical kids would be at his age 30 or 35; at 30, not going to float this place on ‘hot shot lawyer’ pay alone (except, maybe, jackpot ambulance chasing), but at 35 it would certainly be *possible* at one of 10 or so firms.
“I dunno DZ, that most certainly depends on a lot of variables although I’m sure there’s at least 1 age 30-35 lawyer somewhere in town that can afford this comfortably without help from parents/trust funds, etc.”
I will defer to @fo or nonny (he really should be on these threads), but I’d have thought a full equity partner who had been partner for 3-5 years, so mid to late 30s, could afford this if s/he were comfortable about future prospects.
Thank you Sabrina! Pretty close though a little pricey. There are some big units in this building and many sold at much lower prices a year or two ago. I’d almost want the same flooprlan but less finished and would do the remaining myself as time and money allowed.
I really do wish that brokers would put a floorplan up because the layout is so key for families. For example, I love the entry but there appears to be no place for coats, shoes, backpack….but then again maybe there is a great closet off of it. Or a place for shoes, backpacks etc.. by a second back entrance. Who knows? No one should list a family sized million+ apartment without a floorplan.
We may go see this to see if it meets the criteria — stroller room (the laundry would hold a stroller but it would really be in the hall everyday since not a day goes by without laundry), storage, family room off main area (hide the toys) etc….
This whole SF vs condo living for families is very interesting. We have these friends with 2 kids who bought a place around $1Mil. in one of the nearby burbs with taxes around $30K. The main reason was they wanted a yard for the kids to play and they thought public schooling is much better in the burbs vs the city.
I think the debate might boil down to what size of family one is going for. To me, they should have at least 3 kids to justify the taxes and the whole yard argument makes no sense when one had access to fabulous green space in Chicago.
Is it possible that midwesters have more kids than NYC dwellers? I cannot see why a family of 3 or 4 cannot comfortably find a good condo living option. Also I think Urban mommy’s list is a bit on the fancy side. Most town homes and even SFs don’t have pools. In fact, it is much easier to get a pool in a condo. As for strollers and such. I used the den for it and once my baby hit 2, I gave the stroller away and got him a tricycle. I think the Americans are hoarders. As soon as I don’t absolutely need something I get rid of it. It keeps my house clean and manageable.
muimui — I agree that the number of kids greatly affects this decision and, on the whole, Midwesterners have more kids than NYC. I read an article once that NYC is the capital of only children and twins, in large part because people delay having children longer (lots of in vitro kids) because costs to a career and finances. People have children younger in the Midwest too…though its changing. I had kids in my late 30s and worried that I would be an “old mom” but most of the moms at my kids private school are my age. We have contemplated moving to the burbs closer to my husbands work (I’d still have to commute to the loop) and the taxes of the suburbs with good schools are about 35K so with two kids its a wash (2 kids private school, lower taxes is about the same as burbs with public school). We think long term home values will increase in the city more than suburbs so that also has to be considered. As for taxes, I think they are going up in the city and the suburbs we would consider (close to husbands work). The suburbs we would consider are north and have good schools but the infrastructure and school buildings are getting old which suggests to me that there will be an increase in taxes too. Taxes on condos are less per square foot than a SFH…also they are based on the value of the building as a whole not your specific unit. This helps when you have a large unit in a building with some smaller units….your taxes are pulled down a bit. Moreover, we don’t have time for house maintenance, yard etc… and Chicago has fabulous parks.
“also they are based on the value of the building as a whole not your specific unit.”
Cite, please. I do not believe that has any basis in law.
“Cite, please. I do not believe that has any basis in law.”
@fo, would you maybe hold off on the nitpicking and get around to fixing the hotmail?
“get around to fixing the hotmail”
?? I have current from others, so no know what you mean.
“?? I have current from others, so no know what you mean.”
Not trying to email you, but hotmail is down for me on multiple accounts.
http://downrightnow.com/hotmail
SOLD… to um. Although the asking is a bit over your budget, then again it’s just the asking, and it may lack a stroller area, it otherwise meets your criteria no? Taxes don’t seem out of line for 3500 sq ft of ‘new’ condo construction, and I’m guessing the assessments are well within reason for a full amenity building. All and all, most people actively looking to buy would have already come to the conclusion that this is a pretty typical yearly tab (not including the mortgage) for a downtown family sized apartment, like the kinds they buy in NY but at a 1/3 of the price. But, kudos to Sabrina for capturing this elusive unicorn and I can’t imagine where she found it, maybe through sorcery? It’s not like it was staring at anyone since it was listed back in May on the MLS clearing stating the **$40K** a year in combined taxes and assessments that will increase at some point…. oh damn…. and… we’re still looking for the unicorn.
“the **$40K** a year in combined taxes and assessments that will increase at some point”
Already have. 2012 taxes were up to $23,775. So, $43k+.
man even with 50% down you’re droppin 9k a month on PITA…
I can’t even fathom that right now lol
“also they are based on the value of the building as a whole not your specific unit. Cite, please. I do not believe that has any basis in law.”
Our condo assocation’s tax attorney told me this. We thought about appealing our taxes because we found several comps that would support a reduction and the association’s attorney thought doing a separate appeal would not work because the overall assessment is based on the building, not so much the individual unit. He explained that how well a unit was finished off rarely factored into a assessment. He said that level of finishings actually applied more in the SFH context (more differential between the new houses on Burling and the old frame houses than in condos in the same building with different levels of finishings). He said that being a high end condo in an average building often results in some tax savings. We had planned to use the association’s attorney to do a separate appeal so there was no incentive on his part to persuade us not to.
How about this one:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/550-N-Kingsbury-St-60654/unit-620/home/14101799
Assessments + taxes = $34k. Right across from EBC so that can be your “pool”. Includes parking. I have lived in this building before – very well run. You also get an enormous storage space. I’m actually surprised this hasn’t sold yet. I don’t know if any of the room are not fully enclosed – that could be a deal breaker with kids.
“He explained that how well a unit was finished off rarely factored into a assessment.”
True enough. The dumpy, 1977 original condo will get dragged up in AV if everyone else in the building renos and re-sells.
“He said that level of finishings actually applied more in the SFH context (more differential between the new houses on Burling and the old frame houses than in condos in the same building with different levels of finishings).”
The new houses and the smaller old houses are in separate assessment categories, so they wouldn’t be compared. Only if over 5000 sf does the age not matter. And condos are all in a single category, too, regardless of size or age. The 1.5 story, 1890s cottage has basically no effect on the AV of its neighbor, the 7500 sf double-lotted manse, and neither of them affect the 2-flat across the alley, but the 5200 sf and 15000 sf houses 4 blocks away may (assuming in the same assessor’s neighborhood)
“He said that being a high end condo in an average building often results in some tax savings.”
Sure, bc the single best comp for a condo is another condo in the same building. And the assessor can’t actually look inside every one, etc etc, so must rely on generalities. So if you bought the superlux, 6000 sf penthouse for $5m, but the rest of the building is $250k, 1000 sf , and $500k, 2000 sf units, you are pretty likely to end up with an AV based mostly on that $250 psf, and get taxed at perhaps 70% off your true market value.
“We had planned to use the association’s attorney to do a separate appeal so there was no incentive on his part to persuade us not to.”
He has to think that the EV of your appeal is sufficient to make it worth his time. You weren’t going to pay him hourly–just 1/3 of one year of your savings. If he thought there was only a 50% chance of getting a $500 savings, he’s probably going to try to talk you out of it.
Anon,
You seem to be the go-to for this. I was told that in a smaller condo unit (5 units) that in order to appeal, all owners would need to be on board. Do you know is this is true or was I misinformed?
To think I was complaining about the $13,000 in taxes I had to pay this year for my SFH on the NS. Seems cheap compared to some of the taxes and assessments I’ve seen in this chain of comments.
“You seem to be the go-to for this. I was told that in a smaller condo unit (5 units) that in order to appeal, all owners would need to be on board. Do you know is this is true or was I misinformed?”
I wouldn’t quite go that far. My understanding is that in a smaller association, you have low likelihood of success unless the association signs on. That *might* just be the storyline of the tax appeal lawyers, because doing the whole place isn’t much harder than doing one and 5x 1/3 is much better than 1x 1/3; but it also makes sense, as the first-look for comps is in the building, and if you’re the only one appealing, and uniform with the rest of the units, tougher row to hoe.
yoss, that unit has a picture of the feeder like right out the window 🙁
other than that, looks awesome
‘To think I was complaining about the $13,000 in taxes I had to pay this year for my SFH on the NS.’
That’s exactly what I think when I read what these assessments and taxes are for condos – I just can’t wrap my brain around their high costs. I pay a bit more than you for about 2200 sq ft of taxable living space, plus a nontaxable 1100 sq ft fully finished basement with 8′ ceilings (family area, bathroom, guest bedroom, laundry, storage and utility). It’s not like I’m getting some special deal, as that’s pretty typical for the other old homes in the area of similar size. Ironically, those without garages pay the same taxes as those that do have garages, even though having a garage adds *considerable* value to the house. On the other hand, I pay for and have to organize all the exterior expenses on the house which I’m guessing is $4K on average – sometimes more, sometimes less.
I love that yoss’ listing advertises views from every room when the bedroom views are of the Ontario feeder ramp. I’d rather have no windows than windows directly onto a freeway, especially In a bedroom!
“How about this one:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/550-N-Kingsbury-St-60654/unit-620/home/14101799”
This is a duplex. I thought they were trying to avoid stairs? (Grandparents can’t go up and down etc.) Also, it doesn’t have the “preferred” family layout because the master suite is on a separate floor from the other bedrooms. Also, no laundry room.
“We have contemplated moving to the burbs closer to my husbands work (I’d still have to commute to the loop) and the taxes of the suburbs with good schools are about 35K so with two kids its a wash (2 kids private school, lower taxes is about the same as burbs with public school).”
Really? So your city taxes are $15k to $20k and you’re only paying $15k a year for 2 kids in private school? Which ones? The Catholic schools?
“I really do wish that brokers would put a floorplan up because the layout is so key for families. For example, I love the entry but there appears to be no place for coats, shoes, backpack….but then again maybe there is a great closet off of it. Or a place for shoes, backpacks etc.. by a second back entrance. Who knows? No one should list a family sized million+ apartment without a floorplan.”
While I agree that a floorplan would be helpful, you’d go look at the property if you were really in the market to move, you’d simply call up your agent and go look at this the next day after work.
“But part of the UM UC was “I just don’t want to be the only family in a building so having a building in which all units are large is preferable.”, so apparently this unicorn does not exist.”
Sure it does. Live in 50 E. Chestnut. All the units are full floor 3000 square foot units (just no pool in that building.) Or there’s that boutique building on Erie in the middle of River North as well. It’s about 11 stories. Those are all full floor big units as well. We’ve chattered about those.
“Sure it does. Live in 50 E. Chestnut. All the units are full floor 3000 square foot units (just no pool in that building.) Or there’s that boutique building on Erie in the middle of River North as well. It’s about 11 stories. Those are all full floor big units as well.”
And those don’t have the ‘big building amenities’ that are also part of the UM UC. And are they selling for ~$500 psf?
“And those don’t have the ‘big building amenities’ that are also part of the UM UC. And are they selling for ~$500 psf?”
All that building is missing is a pool- which urban mommy said wasn’t that big of a deal.
All you guys do is whine. I’m no real estate agent and with a quick look at the listings in what is RECORD LOW INVENTORY in this city- I was able to find plenty of units that someone with several kids could move into and raise their kids quite easily WITHIN the designated price range (and if you went a little above it I think you’d find that EVERYTHING is negotiable.)
As they say even on those Selling NY and Selling LA shows- you never get everything you want in real estate – even for $10 million or $20 million. It just doesn’t exist. So you get 8 out of 10 things and are happy.
Plenty of choices of large 3+ bedroom units in high rises with full amenities in the GreenZone for $1.5 million to $2 million. Many with 2 car parking as well.
“As they say even on those Selling NY and Selling LA shows- you never get everything you want in real estate – even for $10 million or $20 million. It just doesn’t exist. So you get 8 out of 10 things and are happy.”
But nonny got all the things he wanted.
Comparing the taxes of a SFH vs taxes plus assessments of a condo is not fair.
We have both and I tell you that if you consider all the expenses of the SFH, no way you are better off. To name a few: cleaning gutters, gardening service, painting the window frames, changing the garage opener when it breaks, changing the roof of the house, piping expenses, heating system maintenance, dealing with aftermath of say flooding, fixing the runway to the garage when you have to, and the list goes on and on.
Also if you have a pool at your home, you pay way more for it than in a condo.
Let’s also not forget that assessment covers services too, having someone sign for your mail, hold the door open for you when you come with your hands full, letting you in when you lock yourself out, having round the clock maintenance staff, security of having a doorman, never paying for snow and garbage removal, etc…
” LA shows- you never get everything you want in real estate – even for $10 million or $20 million. It just doesn’t exist. So you get 8 out of 10 things and are happy.””
I was thinking of having my neighbor underneath me executed.. then I can buy their place and I’d be at 9.75 of 10
“Comparing the taxes of a SFH vs taxes plus assessments of a condo is not fair”
Home much much more expensive!!
Also there is the biggest advantage to having a condo. Tomorrow at 2 am I will be locking my door.. getting on a plane… and in 3-4 months I return with everything exactly as is. Try that with a house…
“Let’s also not forget that assessment covers services too, having someone sign for your mail, hold the door open for you when you come with your hands full, letting you in when you lock yourself out, having round the clock maintenance staff, security of having a doorman, never paying for snow and garbage removal, etc…”
But you are paying for that. I’m of the camp where I would rather have just basic building amenities and heat/gas included (especially in a loft) and pay for the extras (cable, internet, EBC) on my own.
Miumiu – Good points on SFH expenses vs. condo. I’ve lived in both and I think your post makes sense, though I don’t agree all the way. I have to add up what we spend on stuff like gardeners and snow shoveling, as well as damage caused by the elements (we had a flood this year in our basement but insurance paid for damages).
But the best thing about the $13,000 we pay in taxes is that it really gets us something we use – good public schools. At $6,500 a year (we have two kids), the value of the education is immense. I realize it doesn’t all go to schools, but that’s what I tell myself when I feel like complaining.
‘Comparing the taxes of a SFH vs taxes plus assessments of a condo is not fair.’
Sure it is, as that’s *real* money coming out of your pocket over the duration of ownership, and it does add up. You are absolutely correct in that owning a house means you also own the total responsibility/headache to maintain it, and therein lies the rub vs a full amenity condo building. My 3300 sq ft house (including the basement sq ft) is about the same size as the above, and I spend about $4K a year on things that assessments would typically cover (obviously not included are things like a new dishwasher, sanding the floors, fixing a faucet). There are many years I spend less, and them just when you think you’re ahead… a new $4K garage roof. Things like a new zoned furnace/AC unit at $12K, and a new house roof at $16K can really hurt (you should get 20 years out of both), but so can special assessments to fix a cracked condo pool. So over say 20 years of ownership without increases or adjustments for inflation, I will have spent $80K on ‘assessments’ (all of which can be deducted from my capital gains when I do sell, with monthly condo assessments, anon?), this unit will have spent $390K. I understand they are two *very* different types of buildings and lifestyles, but after 20 years of ownership one costs a LOT more than the other.
Great post. Jay, and I completely agree. Jay’s post also reminded me that with an SFH, the money you spend more directly benefits you and your family. With a condo association, the direct benefit to you isn’t always so obvious.
Yes, a cracked pool may ultimately affect the value of your condo, but if you never use the pool, you still have to help pay. And there’s no guarantee that when you want to sell your condo, a potential buyer will care about a pool, meaning they may not be willing to pay you any extra because the pool is in good shape. A new garage roof, on the other hand, is an attractive selling point for an SFH, as any buyer would see the obvious benefits of having a safe, dry place to park and store things.
“But nonny got all the things he wanted.”
And then some (a powder room wasn’t an Original Unicorn Criterion). But it’s not looking like we’ll be so lucky on our next place, at least not for a while (or a lotto win, or a move elsewhere). One would think that a third bedroom would tack on, say, $100-150k. Same goes for a family room. But I haven’t seen anything that’s roughly $200-300k more than what we paid for our current place (i.e., there’s nothing out there that meets all Curret Unicorn Criteria, plus a third bed or a third bed and family room, in the mid-to-high $600-700’s, respectively).
” I spend about $4K a year on things that assessments would typically cover”
I suddenly miss Clio, and someone that could empathize with spending more than that a year on just mulch.