Market Conditions: August Sales Fall 5.1% YOY as Inventory Remains Tight
The Illinois Association of Realtors is out with the August sales data.
Sales were down for the second year in a row.
The city of Chicago saw year-over-year home sales decrease 5.1 percent with 2,649 sales in August, compared to 2,791 a year ago. The median price of a home in the city of Chicago in August was $285,000 up 0.4 percent compared to August 2017 when it was $284,000.
August sales since 2007:
- August 2007: 2923 sales
- August 2008: 2078 sales
- August 2009: 1927 sales
- August 2010: 1486 sales
- August 2011: 1787 sales
- August 2012: 2209 sales
- August 2013: 2850 sales
- August 2014: 2414 sales
- August 2015: 2701 sales
- August 2016: 2844 sales
- August 2017: 2791 sales
- August 2018: 2649 sales
August median price since 2007:
- August 2007: $305,000
- August 2008: $297,500
- August 2009: $229,900
- August 2010: $200,000
- August 2011: $192,500
- August 2012: $200,000
- August 2013: $245,000
- August 2014: $269,500
- August 2015: $271,000
- August 2016: $271,000
- August 2017: $284,000
- August 2018: $285,000
“While average market time in August held steady, it will likely tick up in the coming months, as typically, the drop in temperature mirrors a slowdown in the pace of the market,” said Rebecca Thomson, 2018 president of the Chicago Association of REALTORS® and principal of Thomson Real Estate Group. “Buyers grappling with the inventory shortage have enjoyed prices holding steady and, coupled with interest rates, continue to see prime opportunities in the market.”
Statewide, average market time was 45 days, down from 48 days in August 2017.
The 30-year fixed average mortgage rate was 4.55% up from 3.88% a year ago.
“Home sales were tempered by a continuing inventory shrinkage in many of the state’s markets,” said Matt Difanis, ABR, CIPS, GRI, president of Illinois REALTORS® and broker-owner of RE/MAX Realty Associates in Champaign. “As we come out of the warm weather selling season, it’s clear that we are looking at a market that still provides ample opportunity for sellers who are benefitting from relentless increases in median prices.”
Are the slowing sales really due to low inventory?
Or is that now simply an excuse?
Illinois median prices rise at a slower pace in August; home sales decline [Illinois Association of Realtors, Press Release, September 20, 2018]
So the buzz is that it’s really slow – implying a fall off in demand. But I don’t see it in the data. I’d expect to see something – like increasing market times or increasing months of supply or decreasing sale/ list ratios or more listings cancelled. But I don’t. The one thing I did see is that I’m estimating an 11% fall off in contract activity in August, which could cause September to be down by a lot.
Maybe people are finally getting sick of the crazy prices and inflation?
Just my .02
That ’07 + cpi is $370k.
I know that the median is as much about mix as it is about values, but that’s still ~25% below peak in real dollar terms.
Case Shiller matches that, too–both House and Condo indexes, when adjusted for CPI, are about 25% off of the ’07 peaks.
I always wonder to what extent the south portion of the city and the burbs contributes to the drag on prices from the peak. Sure, the North Shore and some of those far flung places with large homes are flat too (cook barrington for the CSE, geneva/st. charles, etc). I see prices going up nearly everywhere north and west but south generally they’re still flat. You would think that flat and cheap prices would be a great buying opportunity but apparently not.
“You would think that flat and cheap prices would be a great buying opportunity”
No one wants to live in Harvey.
The south ‘burbs in Cook are absolutely crushed by the effective tax rates, and absolutely are a drag on the overall numbers, whenever they trade. The metro has a still disproportionate number of distressed sales (which is both bc of and a cause of the lack of price recovery).
“Case Shiller matches that, too–both House and Condo indexes, when adjusted for CPI, are about 25% off of the ’07 peaks.”
The Chicago area tax hikes are making Chicago area real estate more expensive without raising the cost of the real estate. If the tax rates where factored into the indexes, that 25% difference would probably be easily gone. I’m pretty sure that my taxes have gone up more than 25% since 2007.
“No one wants to live in Harvey.”
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True, and the entire South side of Chicago, with the possible exception of Hyde Park, carries a stigma (Hyde Park around U of C should be considered for GZ status, btw), which holds down prices.
As Gary has showed in his column and here, however, South side may be turning a corner. A bungalow in southie can easily be $100k less than its doppelganger on the NW side. The price differences are getting too big for buyers to ignore.
“A bungalow in southie can easily be $100k less than its doppelganger on the NW side.”
Try $200k.
While hardly scientific, doing a search for “bungalow” on redfin, north of the Ike v south, shows the *average* asking price is $350k v $155k.
That, of course, makes no accommodation for condition or anything, and certainly includes some number of functionally unlivable properties. But it’s a decent sample size–about 220 north and about 270 south.
btw, the highest non-Beverly southside list in the set is at $320k, which would be 75th lowest out of the 220 on the north. There are 11 on the north listed for over 2x that.
“‘A bungalow in southie can easily be $100k less than its doppelganger on the NW side.’
Try $200k.”
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I was trying to be conservative.
Thanks for the analysis.
“Sure, the North Shore and some of those far flung places with large homes are flat too (cook barrington for the CSE, geneva/st. charles, etc). ”
Not suggesting your wrong, but where are you seeing this? Specifically regarding Geneva/StC?
From Gary’s piece, most SFH activity by community area features in the top 10: Bridgeport (at 5) and Grand Boulevard (at 8). Woodlawn is at 12.
Average price for those is about $600K.
Hottest northside neighborhoods by the same measure are Irving Park, Logan Square, and North Center, with average prices of about $700K, $1.2m, and $1.55m, if I’m reading it right.
“True, and the entire South side of Chicago, with the possible exception of Hyde Park, carries a stigma (Hyde Park around U of C should be considered for GZ status, btw), which holds down prices.”
No way. Hyde Park got crushed in the housing bust. No level of “safety” there at all in prices.
“A bungalow in southie can easily be $100k less than its doppelganger on the NW side. The price differences are getting too big for buyers to ignore.”
Why do buyers want to stay in the city versus the suburbs?
They want restaurants, entertainment, a short commute, preferably on public transit and good schools.
The South Side has always suffered on many of these counts. Why hasn’t a restaurant scene ever developed in Hyde Park with all that money there? Some have tried several times but it still hasn’t taken off. Why not?
The reality is, the restaurants and walkability of such, is so much better in many suburbs including Oak Park, LaGrange, Park Ridge, Evanston, Naperville and even downtown Barrington (although that commute is long.)
I’ve said in the past, that there’s really not any difference between the restaurants in Lincoln Square or Southport’s main drag and those in Oak Park or Naperville. You have Noodles & Company, the Potbelly’s, Starbucks, one of the burger chains, a Thai or Chinese restaurant and probably a Chipotle.
This is what buyers want, apparently.
But at least in Southport, you can still walk over to Wrigley Field (a selling point mentioned many times on this site in the past.) Are you walking to Wrigley or Comiskey from your south side bungalow? Unlikely.
“Not suggesting your wrong, but where are you seeing this? Specifically regarding Geneva/StC?”
St. Charles has been awful for years. Too far from downtown and houses too big. Millennials don’t want either thing.
Just look at Dennis Rodkin’s examples of “sold for then and sold for now” where they are mostly selling for less than 10 or 20 years ago. Brutal.
The restaurant and social scene is pressing south. Have you been out on 18th Street in Pilsen on a nice night this summer? It’s packed with people, tourists, new bars, restaurants, shops, etc. etc. etc.
Bridgeport’s scene is also starting to change quickly, with all the development on Morgan. Chinatown is burgeoning with new stuff and activity.
It’s not comparable to some neighborhoods on the North Side, of course, but it is starting to change.
I wonder if even half of the readers and commenters here have ever traveled south of Roosevelt.
Why isn’t the same kind of scene and amenities developing around Comiskey or in various areas of the South Side? That’s something I don’t understand.
And yeah, Chinatown is happening and Bridgeport has more than it used to — I did this bike ride through Chicago that went through Bridgeport and was positively impressed — but it still has a long way to go. Bronzeville is the same. Changing the subject a bit, one issue with Bronzeville I find when I talk to people about looking there is that there’s a fear that they are not wanted there, that they would be perceived as bad gentrifiers or that it’s considered a neighborhood that is historically black and that white people should not buy in. That perception is an issue. Why it matters more in Bronzeville than, say, Logan Square or Humboldt Park or Pilsen, I don’t know, but it seems to.
For the record, I go to Hyde Park a lot and used to have a reason to go to Bronzeville a lot. I go to Chinatown and Comiskey occasionally and have been to lots of other neighborhoods on the south side occasionally, without having a reason to go more often. That there’s no particular reason people go to the south side is part of the issue, though.
“Why hasn’t a restaurant scene ever developed in Hyde Park with all that money there? Some have tried several times but it still hasn’t taken off. Why not?”
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Because the economic engine is U of C and students, not general professional class, living there. The amenities are student (and student budget) driven. Lake View and Lincoln Park and such have large numbers of students, but there are enough working professionals to sustain a restaurant scene within easy driving distance. Easy driving distance of Hyde Park puts you in ethnic hot spots — with thriving restaurant scenes — like Chinatown and Pilsen.
As for no neighborhood development around Comiskey — simple: With the exception of Wrigley and Fenway Park in Boston (if you’re driving in Boston, take a left at the Citgo sign), none of the ball parks were designed to fit into an existing community and complement it.
As for whites in Bronzeville vs. whites in Logan Square or Humboldt Park, I think Bronzeville always was a Black community, whereas LS and Humboldt Park were white and then flipped minority.
I thought Hyde Park around U of C (not other parts of Hyde Park, to be sure) did reasonably well during the recession. No?
53rd Street is much more happening than it used to be.
I’ve been reading some of the post-bust commentary here (since the first GZ reference was identified), and it’s fascinating. Both the extreme positive (LP will not go down!) and the extreme negative. There’s also skepticism about Bucktown being a good neighborhood (it’s considered way more hipster than I think it was in 2009).
One of the topics that gets discussed is Hyde Park’s boundaries being expanded to try to sell areas in surrounding neighborhoods, which did not work.
When I was looking for a SFH, I looked a bit in HP — I like the area and go there a lot, but transportation is bad, so it would have had to offer a lot more for the money for me to be interested. It did not.
“Why it matters more in Bronzeville than, say, Logan Square or Humboldt Park or Pilsen, I don’t know”
That’s a discussion that could go in a very bad direction.
My friends in Hyde Park go out to dinner at restaurants in the greater downtown area (from Prairie District to Gold Coast). They are not going to China Town or Pilsen. I don’t think they are unusual. I think a lot of other Hyde Park residents follow the same path, which is LSD.
“…I wonder if even half of the readers and commenters here have ever traveled south of Roosevelt….”
Juiceman’s ‘pioneering’ in McKinley Pk puts him in the quickest appreciating neighborhood over past few years imho.
Two Bridgeportfood recs: I highly recommend Franco’s @ NWC 31st & Princeton – it’s old-school but serves great food at popular prices w/white table cloth dining at same price point as places like Baccanalia on 24th & Oakley. I also love the reasonably priced great food at Kimski/Maria’s @ 960 W 31st, a Korean/Polish fusion joint attached to a dive bar/slashie – both have great atmosphere to boot.
“One of the topics that gets discussed is Hyde Park’s boundaries being expanded to try to sell areas in surrounding neighborhoods, which did not work.
When I was looking for a SFH, I looked a bit in HP — I like the area and go there a lot, but transportation is bad, so it would have had to offer a lot more for the money for me to be interested. It did not.”
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Boundaries. Can’t live with ’em, can’t live without ’em, eh? What is it with r.e. agents not respecting boundaries? Sounds congenital, whatever it is.
As for bad transportation in Hyde Park; what was so bad? You’ve got the Metra line to the East, LSD to the East, and green (?) line to the West on 55th (Garfield).
And the Dan Ryan
Hyde Park is a community area with precisely defined boundaries. They should not be in dispute.
My issue with Hyde Park is that I’ve always believed that the housing stock is just not well maintained. Could be that university professors just don’t know how to do that sort of thing.
Hyde Park’s dining scene never took off because UofC attendees are a bunch of autistic wierdos that never go outside their rooms unless mandatory
“Hyde Park is a community area with precisely defined boundaries. They should not be in dispute.”
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All 77 communities have precise boundaries if my understanding is correct, but Hyde Park as a neighborhood (to wit: swarms of U of C students, bands of roving professors, etc.) I know too little about its boundaries to say. I just think it’s funny that r. e. agents always seem to want to stretch boundaries simply to shill their wares.
As for sonies’ point about the dining scene, the only thing worse than autistic weirdos is autistic weirdos on a budget.
“I’ve said in the past, that there’s really not any difference between the restaurants in Lincoln Square or Southport’s main drag and those in Oak Park or Naperville. You have Noodles & Company, the Potbelly’s, Starbucks, one of the burger chains, a Thai or Chinese restaurant and probably a Chipotle.”
Sabrina, are you serious here? You say it a lot, but it seems like a weak canard and you know that these are not the type of “restaurants” that people are thinking of when they are saying they want to live in a certain area because of local dining and drinking. I really like Bistro Campagne, what is the equivalent in OP or Naperville? x20 for all the quality places these neighborhoods have that are not basic fast casual.
Are you honestly saying that restaurant scenes in an area aren’t distinguishable if they have the same fast casual chains? There’s a Shake Shack on Morgan by the El and one in Birmingham, Alabama. Does that mean that the West Loop and Birmingham have the same foodie scene?
Re boundaries, I said nothing about RE agents, just talking about old posts.
“As for bad transportation in Hyde Park; what was so bad? You’ve got the Metra line to the East, LSD to the East, and green (?) line to the West on 55th (Garfield).”
The Red and Green Lines have Garfield stops, but neither is actually in Hyde Park, and having done the Red Line it’s not great.
Metra is fine if you just want to get to downtown, but has the limits of any metra line. Same with the express bus. LSD takes forever (I was just at the Court Saturday, Rahm was there, btw), and requires a car. I personally would not live in HP without a car, which is different than most north side neighborhoods.
I’m sure there are fine restaurant options in many ‘burbs, but will agree that people who reference dining in LS aren’t talking about Potbelly’s and Chipotle. I recently moved from Southport (which has so so dining, although it’s better than it used to be) to LS, and a better local restaurant scene was a plus. Also being less in the middle of the Cubs scene was a plus for me.
” I really like Bistro Campagne, what is the equivalent in OP or Naperville?”
The stock response is that once you have kids, you never go to those sorts of places anymore.
Now, had you cited Goosefoot and Elizabeth, that point would be (somewhat) valid, but you cited the sort of place that I’ve taken my kids to since they were under a year old (and there is nowhere we went that we weren’t welcome back). I would argue that being able to go to a place like Goosefoot or Elizabeth in the neighborhood, rather then 30 miles away is a huuuge plus, even with kids, as it makes the (ugh) ‘date night’ more achievable and enjoyable.
” Does that mean that the West Loop and Birmingham [Alabama] have the same foodie scene?
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Make America Great Again ? 🙂
” I personally would not live in HP without a car, which is different than most north side neighborhoods.”
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A distinction without a difference. NOBODY WOULD LIVE ANYWHERE without a car if they are buying a house: AND guess what, boys and girls? — Cribchatter doesn’t cater to renters. Com’on, Stephanie, would YOU live in Lake View, Lincoln Park, Bucktown (Armitage), Wicker Park, Lincoln Square, Logan Square, [insert hot neighborhood here] without a car? If so, what few-blocks-square area of the acceptable neighborhood would you consider?
Like I said, South side carries a stigma. This is where we all get to see that stigma played out in action.
BTW — rent control law in Springfield — what say you all?
“Stephanie — Re boundaries, I said nothing about RE agents, just talking about old posts.
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And those old posts were posted by …… ? Help us out here, Stephanie.
Readers of the site? If you have a point, please make it.
My point is that for a pretty significant number of people, the utter walkability to diverse food and drink is a positive attribute of city living, and that you can minimize the amplitude of this effect but you can’t credibly deny its existence in full.
jjj:
if it wasn’t clear, I was agreeing with you, and anticipating a possible alternate argument, and agreeing with you in the face of that one, too.
“Com’on, Stephanie, would YOU live in Lake View, Lincoln Park, Bucktown (Armitage), Wicker Park, Lincoln Square, Logan Square, [insert hot neighborhood here] without a car?”
Why would you need a car if you don’t have kids? Uber is cheap. Divvy bikes are plentiful. Buses and subway are easy. If you really need a car, use Zipcar. I know plenty of people in the GreenZone who don’t have cars and don’t miss it. They don’t have children living at home, however.
“BTW — rent control law in Springfield — what say you all?”
Two words: San Francisco. Check out their real estate some time.
“I really like Bistro Campagne, what is the equivalent in OP or Naperville?”
You mean like this restaurant in downtown Naperville?
https://www.lechocolatdubouchard.com/french-bistro
Perhaps you’re missing the Francesca’s? The Lou Malnati’s? Both are in downtown Naperville.
Here are some of the restaurants found in Chicago that are also in downtown Naperville:
Aloha Poke
Bar Louie
Catch 35
Five Guys
Giordano’s
Hugo’s Frog Bar
La Sorella Di Francesca
Le Pain Quotidien
Molly’s Cupcakes
Nandos Peri-Peri
I kept Starbucks, Chipotle, Jimmy John’s, David’s Tea, and Potbelly off the list. But they’re there too. Just like Southport!
I never said that Naperville or Oak Park or LaGrange were Randolph Street in the West Loop. I said they are Southport, Lincoln Park, Old Town, or Lincoln Square. Blindfold a stranger and drop them off in any of those locations and downtown Naperville and it would not be any different.
And when you have a 10-year old, you’re not going out to dinner on the weekends to Topolobampo. You are going to Potbelly’s or Five Guys or a pizza place. Maybe you will have a kid who likes Thai, but they don’t care if it’s Naperville Thai or Southport Thai. (By the way, some of the best Asian restaurants in the Chicago area are in Westmont. Just fyi.)
Plenty of great “date night” restaurants in the suburbs anon(tfo). We have long passed the days when ALL of the best restaurants are in Chicago. I was always too exhausted from my kids activities all weekends to ever think about going somewhere fancy on “date night.” It’s hard when your kids are in sports. But maybe some of yours are too little. You’re not yet into the traveling soccer games in Indiana.
“There’s a Shake Shack on Morgan by the El and one in Birmingham, Alabama. Does that mean that the West Loop and Birmingham have the same foodie scene?”
For burgers? Yes, it does.
Birmingham’s food scene is fantastic. I don’t see why you’re using it as a comparison. A better one would be Peoria with the West Loop.
If you live in Southport and have kids, where are you eating? The same restaurants as in Naperville. Maybe because I’ve done it, it is just not even a discussion for me. Most kids don’t care about whatever ritzy restaurant. You go somewhere to get pancakes. And pizza. That’s it.
Please tell me where on Southport is a “must” go to restaurant that you actually drive to get to? There aren’t any.
I do think the restaurant selection is a bit better in Lincoln Square, actually. Ditto for Division Street in Wicker Park.
“Because the economic engine is U of C and students, not general professional class, living there. The amenities are student (and student budget) driven.”
Why is that any different than Evanston? Similar feel. Similar student bodies. Similar housing stock, actually. Plenty of restaurants there. Good ones.
“As for no neighborhood development around Comiskey — simple: With the exception of Wrigley and Fenway Park in Boston (if you’re driving in Boston, take a left at the Citgo sign), none of the ball parks were designed to fit into an existing community and complement it.”
Wrong. San Francisco and Camden Yards are both in neighborhoods so that’s a crap argument.
“I wonder if even half of the readers and commenters here have ever traveled south of Roosevelt.”
No, they have not.
Haven’t traveled west either (Jefferson Park? Why would anyone live there? Edgebrook? Where’s that? Galewood? Might as well live in Oak Park.)
“The restaurant and social scene is pressing south. Have you been out on 18th Street in Pilsen on a nice night this summer?”
Good. I hope this is true. So many great places in Pilsen.
Re: rent control
God help us if they pass that. What a tremendous way to destroy the housing stock, create a housing shortage, and lock people into never moving when it would otherwise not make economic sense for them to leave. However, it would end up being a great wage subsidy for low wage businesses.
Too many negatives in there. Should be “otherwise make economic sense for them to leave”
I’m still depressed Sabatino’s is closing soon. You won’t find that place in the burbs.
“Why is that any different than Evanston? Similar feel. Similar student bodies. Similar housing stock, actually. Plenty of restaurants there. Good ones.”
I will bet you that there are far more upper income folks in Evanston than there are in Hyde Park. Not to mention that it can easily draw from other North Shore communities.
I don’t believe HP carries a stigma. I think it’s a hassle to get to, and again I say that as someone who goes there often enough and finds it a pain because it takes so long (by car, wouldn’t be bad if no traffic, but there’s always traffic, there was traffic coming back from the Court Saturday evening even though it was around 11 pm).
As for whether I would live in those North side neighborhoods without a car, sure — I lived in LP and LV without a car for years. I have a car now, but that I don’t need to use it unless going to the burbs or HP is a nice thing for me.
“A distinction without a difference. NOBODY WOULD LIVE ANYWHERE without a car if they are buying a house: AND guess what, boys and girls? — Cribchatter doesn’t cater to renters.”
I don’t totally understand if maybe you’re being ironic, johnc?
I own a house in Queens, New York and a house in Portage Park in Chicago and I don’t have a car. Not buying a car has reduced my expenses so significantly I am able to afford 2 homes in my 2 favorite cities. Also, in Queens, I rent my garage out, so in addition to saving money on the car I have an extra income. The only year of my life I have ever rented housing was my very first year in New York.
On the original topic, Gary Lucido and Denise Mitchell just helped me close on another Chicago house. The higher interest rates and higher prices have not made a dent in the high demand out there. Denise was nice and aggressive for me, going out to look at houses on my behalf because they were going under contract before I could get to Chicago to see them. It is a competitive market. We submitted a couple of offers which were not even acknowledged by the listing agents. I bought a house sight-unseen. I could not have done this without Denise. I trust her judgment implicitly. The house was even cuter than I expected.
“I own a house in Queens, New York and a house in Portage Park in Chicago and I don’t have a car. ”
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Sounds like you’re the exception that proves the rule in Chicago. New York City is an entirely different animal, so it’s not really applicable. Lots of people there don’t have cars. In Chicago, young renters in places like Lincoln Park and Lake View get away with not having cars. Then it’s move out and get wheels time.
And congratulations on buying your new house. There is much to enjoy in Chicago.
“BTW — rent control law in Springfield — what say you all?”
God help this city and state if JB and his horrible ideas actually get elected with full backing from the idiot democratic legislators downstate. I hope the next mayor isn’t an idiot, but thats asking for a lot too I’m sure.
“And when you have a 10-year old, you’re not going out to dinner on the weekends to Topolobampo. You are going to Potbelly’s or Five Guys or a pizza place.”
Huh…I live in Bucktown and take my kids to Hot Chocolate, Publican Ankar, Bristol, etc all the time.
“Here are some of the restaurants found in Chicago that are also in downtown Naperville:”
The funny thing about these restaurants is that most people that live in the city don’t go there. Other than the occasional lunch at some of the fast food places you mentioned, I can remember the last time I’ve been to any of them.
“For burgers? Yes, it does.
Birmingham’s food scene is fantastic. I don’t see why you’re using it as a comparison. A better one would be Peoria with the West Loop.
If you live in Southport and have kids, where are you eating? The same restaurants as in Naperville. Maybe because I’ve done it, it is just not even a discussion for me. Most kids don’t care about whatever ritzy restaurant. You go somewhere to get pancakes. And pizza. That’s it.”
Ok, you have convinced me that you seriously believe the stuff you are saying. I am sure that you have made the decisions and inferences that work for you. But your experiences and viewpoints are obviously very different from mine. I honestly have never been to Birmingham as an adult but I love burgers so I will check out the Au Cheval and the Kuma’s if I am ever there. I can have Shake Shack anywhere – that’s fast food. It’s ok but not what I always want.
My kids will eat off the kids menu or a split adult dish simplified anywhere, so I guess I am lucky. I don’t generally go places “for the kids” – they are along for the ride so that we can go places we like on a weeknight or on a whim because we feel like sushi or whatever and we can. In “Southport”, my personal favorite places are Crosby’s, Tango Sur (not good with kids), Coda di Volpe and Falhstrom’s (if you want to call that Southport).
Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a date night dinner. Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a play. Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a sporting event. Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a concert. Yet the reverse is true for each of those activities. Please stop with the BS that the suburbs offer a comparable cultural experience to the city. This is Chicago – one of the best cities for culture / food in the US. If this was Salt Lake or Sacramento you’d have a point. Just because you’re too tired to go out to a nice restaurant after carting the kids around on the weekend doesn’t mean others are. Those who want to plop down on the couch and watch their 75″ TV can just move to the burbs – and they do! It’s pretty simple – if cost wasn’t an issue most people would live in the city because its more appealing to most.
*The use of Nobody is illustrative and not absolute – in my 15 years here I’ve done each of those things once or twice in the burbs – usually to accommodate friends who moved there (and are now acquaintances since the logistics of going to burbs was too much)
“Huh…I live in Bucktown and take my kids to Hot Chocolate, Publican Ankar, Bristol, etc all the time.”
Those arent Topolobampo
In most of the nicer suburbs, you can find similar food options (Gastropub, etc…)
Thank you, johnc! I love Chicago and I am waiting for the day when I can live there full-time.
Right now when I’m in town I’m pretty far west out by Addison and Central in Portage Park but public transportation has been convenient because I’ve got the Addison bus and the Central bus practically at my door. The quickest way to the train is to take the Central bus to the Jefferson Park Blue Line stop. I use Uber or Lyft to fill in the gaps late at night.
I don’t enjoy sitting next to the occasional scratching crackhead or the leering old creeper with the permasmile on the bus, but for now delaying the gratification of having a car is a means to an end for me.
Chicago is much nicer than New York because you have multiple options. You can have a car and park it in your own garage without circling for hours looking for street parking or take public transportation or walk.
“the idiot democratic legislators downstate.”
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Actually the Democrat legislators are mostly from Chicago. Downstate is Republican.
Once you get South of I-80 and are in the land of one-branch-family-trees, it gets real Republican real fast.
You do have a point about idiot democrats, though. Mattie Hunter is the sponsor of the latest rent control bill, and she’s a Chicago Democrat.
The real aim of rent control in Chicago is to stop gentrification, thereby preventing have-nots from becoming haves.
Here’s the rent control bill: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=91&GA=100&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=3512&GAID=14&LegID=111613&SpecSess=&Session=
From the numbers I’ve seen, a family of four earning $101k a year would be a tier 2 renter. Assuming rent as 1/3 of monthly gross income, that means a rental unit of about $2,800 a month would be rent controlled.
Even New York City ends rent control at just over $2,700 a month.
“You’re not yet into the traveling soccer games in Indiana.”
kids aren’t super jocks and not interested in following the crowd. Have friends in other parts of the country with kids who are borderline age-group national team, and their entire lives revolve around that schedule (and their jobs of course)–thanks, no thanks.
I agree Oak Park or suburbs in general don’t have the same hip dining scene, but there are fine dining options. Granted, it isn’t the beautiful people crowd, but I am there for the food, not to see and be seen.
Wife and I go into city once or twice per week to eat with kids. When we have a date night or dinner with friends, we usually make a point to go to higher caliber city restaurants.
The thing is though that 90% of the time, we don’t need the hip restaurant scene. With kids, it simply isn’t a priority or even realistic. As such, it is far easier to be somewhere like Oak Park with the amenities we need as a family most of the time versus being a little closer to restaurants that we may only eat every now and then.
For us, it is about overall value / convenience. It seems far easier and convenient (schools, housing costs and space, parks, amenities, etc) to live in our burb. It only takes us like 15 minutes or so to get to city most weekends, so hitting the beach, museums, and other cultural attractions is also easy when we choose to do those things, but we don’t have any of the negatives of city living.
“Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a date night dinner”
They should, there’s some really good stuff out there. My wife an I probably 2x a year hear about some place and go check it out. The suburbs arent the cultural wasteland people here make them out to be. Yes I still prefer the city but I’m not so quick to dismiss a good spot be it Japanese food in a strip mall, a great bistro on a riverfront setting or old school supper club type place.
The fancy places downtown aren’t really my thing. I love Chicago mom and pop neighborhood restaurants.
If you like Turkish food, try Sultan Kebab on Cumberland in Norridge.
This place is very casual and family-friendly.
I like going here right after arriving at O’Hare.
They have parking too.
https://www.yelp.com/biz/sultan-kebab-and-bakery-norridge
“when you have a 10-year old, you’re not going out to dinner on the weekends to Topolobampo”
No, but we might go to Frontera. We’d certainly go to other restaurants as ‘nice’ as Topo.
“Le Pain Quotidien”
We’ve been. In three other cities. Never in Illinois. The only other place on your list we’ve been to in the past ~6 years is five guys. ~6 years ago we were at Hugo’s (in Naperville, natch) for a 40th birthday party.
I’m sure we’d go to all those places if we lived in Naperville, tho.
Just because you chose to make those decisions doesn’t make it right, or even normal, much less the only way that families live their lives. You *clearly* have very little idea what actual families living in the city actually do.
“we don’t have any of the negatives of city living”
C’mon, Russ, you have about half of them, plus high taxes, and not being allowed to park on the street (which is both neg and pos).
yeah come on, there is great food in nearly every city in the US now to pretend otherwise is just ignorant
There is a NYC forum I read occasionally. What is funny is that the people living in NYC, think of Chicago as not having any culture, dining, etc. Literally, it is the same conversation… NYC residents justifying living in a shoebox for the culture while claiming cities like Chicago have none of it.
“They should, there’s some really good stuff out there”
When I run out of new places in Chicago (which will be never since there are new openings every week) I will hit the burbs. What is the point in driving 30-45 minutes even if the place is awesome when I’m a 10-15 min uber away in the city?
“yeah come on, there is great food in nearly every city in the US now to pretend otherwise is just ignorant”
As far as I know, no one made that statement. Pretty much every mid sized city has a new american farm to table place these days. But they don’t have the same volume of amazing restaurants as Chicago. If you go out once a month / quarter or you’re too tired maybe that’s fine for you.
“There is a NYC forum I read occasionally. What is funny is that the people living in NYC, think of Chicago as not having any culture, dining, etc. Literally, it is the same conversation… NYC residents justifying living in a shoebox for the culture while claiming cities like Chicago have none of it.”
I know several ppl in NYC that flew to Chicago solely to go to the Aviary and Alinea. I also know people who flew to Chicago to see Hamilton since they could actually get tickets here vs Broadway. They weren’t stopping in Oak Park or Naperville on their way to the city.
So much of this is personal choice – if you are happy in Oak Park and it works to hit the city frequently that is awesome. The debate we are forced to have is what MOST people want. And I believe MOST ppl would rather live in the city vs the burbs all else being equal. And MOST people know that just because each of these places has some commonalities (5 guys, poke, etc) that doesn’t remotely mean they are equivalent. Guess what – nyc has 5 guys and poke too. Does that mean Southport corridor is equiv to NYC???
“Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a date night dinner. Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a play. Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a sporting event. Nobody goes from the city to the suburbs for a concert.”
Ravinia? Gillson Beach? Not trying to offer support for Sabrina’s argument re: city vs burb, but there are at least a few compelling reasons to travel from the city to a burb. Heck if we’re in Chicago for as long as a week (which happens at least a couple of times a year), we’ll go up to Blind Faith (even though the Chicago Diner is great and is on the way to Evanston).
“And when you have a 10-year old, you’re not going out to dinner on the weekends to Topolobampo. You are going to Potbelly’s or Five Guys or a pizza place.”
Sometimes pizza sure (though the city options are nicer), sometimes not. Places we’ve gone w our 10 y.o.: cellar door, entente, kitsune, naoki, boefhaus, parachute, lula, vie (burbs!). Not that there’s nothing in the burbs but def more in the city.
“Maybe you will have a kid who likes Thai, but they don’t care if it’s Naperville Thai or Southport Thai.”
I’m not going to nicer places bc my kid wants to go there, it’s bc we want to and it works w the kid. Though we do have a group res for kyoten and he’s angling for a seat.
“(By the way, some of the best Asian restaurants in the Chicago area are in Westmont. Just fyi.)”
Yeah, there’s some but a lot more in the city. People I know out there still come into chinatown, people I know in the city don’t go out to westmont (maybe for Katy’s back in teh day but not as good any more and more options in the city now).
“Does that mean Southport corridor is equiv to NYC???”
Nonononono. It’s like you aren’t paying attention.
It means that NAPERVILLE is the equivalent of NYC, if you have kids. Because, if you live in NYC and have kids, you’re always just going to 5 guys and Poke anyway, bc the little shits won’t eat anywhere else.
“5 guys”
I think the only time I’ve been there is we were walking to teh zoo, kid was hungry (yes kid==>5 guys) and we got some fries. we got the large, which was large.
Is that 5 guys in elp? It’s sad but I’ve forgotten the boundaries now. Wouldn’t the defn of elp need to exclude any 5 guys? Oh, we went to n pond with the kid once too. Didn’t really like it that much.
“Is that 5 guys in elp?”
Lamentably, yes.
Who are you fancy urban pioneers going out to eat with children? Between the crying the diapers the fussing the fighting and the dislike of all things that aren’t chicken nuggets, I go out to eat with the family maybe one a quarter, in a good year.
“And I believe MOST ppl would rather live in the city vs the burbs all else being equal.”
This is true for me, but I don’t think it’s generally true. Lots of people don’t like cities or want a great big yard or like cities on occasion but find them difficult to live in.
“And I believe MOST ppl would rather live in the city vs the burbs all else being equal.”
The mere utterance of the syllables Chi-ca-go will put more than a few suburbanites into a fit of rage. Chicago may as well be a foreign country for the 3,000,000 or so people in DuPage, Lake and McHenry Counties.
“3,000,000 or so people in DuPage, Lake and McHenry Counties”
Only overstating it by 50+%. Under 1.95m in those 3 counties.
sorry typing from an android with a cracked screen. Fat fingers meant 2 not 3. But your math is correct too.
Shouldn’t you be able to afford a new phone, hd? Business expense, too, right?
” I also know people who flew to Chicago to see Hamilton since they could actually get tickets here vs Broadway. They weren’t stopping in Oak Park or Naperville on their way to the city.”
———————-
True, and they weren’t coming to Chicago to see Lin-Manuel Miranda play Hamilton. They were willing to accept a second rate experience (note that I didn’t say a second-rate performance).
Anyone who thinks that Chicago’s “Hamilton” was the equivalent of New York’s Miranda-played Hamilton is the type of person who would pass off ersatz Bucktown (South of Armitage) as the real thing.
I love Chicago. It is a great city, great people (better than New york’s). It has great cultural resources. The Lyric Opera (love it) is mentioned in the same breath artistically as the San Fransisco and New York Met. I submit that Chicago’s sub-Broadway theater scene is in many ways more vibrant than New York’s.
But one does not come from New York to Chicago for MOST cultural experiences unless one want to go slumming.
“Is that 5 guys in elp? It’s sad but I’ve forgotten the boundaries now. Wouldn’t the defn of elp need to exclude any 5 guys? Oh, we went to n pond with the kid once too. Didn’t really like it that much.”
There are 5 Guys all over Chicago now. Ask Millennials in Lakeview. Do they go there? Um…yeah.
“yeah come on, there is great food in nearly every city in the US now to pretend otherwise is just ignorant”
Even in Reno, sonies. 😉
“We’ve been. In three other cities. Never in Illinois. The only other place on your list we’ve been to in the past ~6 years is five guys. ~6 years ago we were at Hugo’s (in Naperville, natch) for a 40th birthday party.”
You’re too “good” for Hugo anon(tfo)? It’s only one of the most popular restaurants in the city. But if you don’t bundle the kids in the car and drive to the Gold Coast, then I guess you wouldn’t be going there.
“You *clearly* have very little idea what actual families living in the city actually do.”
Lol. This is the best thing I’ve been called in a long time. Different strokes for different folks. No time to take my kids to Frontera Grill when they’re outside all day. My kids are athletic.
By the way, go to any of these restaurants you keep raving about. How many kids under 15 you ever see there? None. You know why? They’re all in Southport at Crosby’s Kitchen. But that’s okay. It’s no different than going to one of the similar restaurants in Oak Park or Evanston on Saturday night either. In fact, you can hear the El nearby in both. No.Difference.At.All.
Wait a minute- there IS a difference. You might not be mugged walking home in Oak Park or Evanston.
“kids aren’t super jocks and not interested in following the crowd.”
If they’re not athletic, they’re not. Plenty of kids are not. As I said, different strokes for different folks. Got someone in ballet or dance? What about playing an instrument? Still takes up almost as much time.
So glad my kids are older now.
“Thank you, johnc! I love Chicago and I am waiting for the day when I can live there full-time.”
We’re waiting for you Milkster!
“Please stop with the BS that the suburbs offer a comparable cultural experience to the city.”
I never said it was comparable culturally. But not much difference between one of the sports bars in Naperville and the ones near Wrigley Field. Sorry. There’s just not. Same sticky floor and bad food with 30 televisions all tuned to the Cubs.
“I can have Shake Shack anywhere – that’s fast food. It’s ok but not what I always want.”
You can have Shake Shack anywhere? That’s a new one on me. Just 3 of them in the entire Chicago area (a fourth on the way near that “authentic” part of the city called Wrigleyville.)
By the way, you DO realize that Birmingham has it’s own Au Cheval, right? Yes…restaurants with great food exist in Birmingham Alabama.
Gasp!
“In Chicago, young renters in places like Lincoln Park and Lake View get away with not having cars. Then it’s move out and get wheels time.”
Where do they move to and “get wheels”?
“On the original topic, Gary Lucido and Denise Mitchell just helped me close on another Chicago house.”
Excellent news Milkster. What price point are we talking about that is so hot?
“I’m still depressed Sabatino’s is closing soon. You won’t find that place in the burbs.”
Really Homedelete? I think just the opposite. The old school Italian style family restaurants, like the old school Chinese restaurants, have been around since the 1960s all over the suburbs. The city SUCKED. Many moved to the suburbs from the city and opened there. PLENTY of old school restaurants like Sabatino’s in the suburbs.
But they’re dying off now. Tastes have changed. People want fresher. They want a renovated restaurant. They want healthy. And the kids (grandkids) of the original owners don’t want to go into that business. So they just shut it down so they can finally retire.
Lots of free time now that you’re not running for re-election? I voted for you twice. I’d do it again too.
“God help us if they pass that. What a tremendous way to destroy the housing stock, create a housing shortage, and lock people into never moving when it would otherwise not make economic sense for them to leave.”
Yep. Like I said, just go look for an apartment in San Francisco sometime. The buildings are awful. Kitchens from 1950 (and I’m not kidding- even the appliances.)
Rent control doesn’t work.
“Anyone who thinks that Chicago’s “Hamilton” was the equivalent of New York’s Miranda-played Hamilton is the type of person who would pass off ersatz Bucktown (South of Armitage) as the real thing.”
But he’s not playing him in NY either. Hasn’t been for over a year or two, right? So if you had the choice of seeing Hamilton in NYC or Chicago last summer, why not come to Chicago where it’s cheaper?
Or you could go to London too. No Miranda playing him there either.
“Where do they move to and “get wheels”?”
—————-
West of Crawford.
Never been worried about getting mugged walking home from Crosby Kitchen (which is always filled with kids, good call).
Rent control strikes me as such a self-evidently stupid and destructive policy that it could actually get me to vote for Rauner and I’m a Democrat. I’ve had a bad feeling about it since the advisory vote on it.
On the other hand, Southport (and North Center) is like a suburb in the city in some ways, but it’s walking distance to good public transportation, you don’t need a car (my old place was on the other side of the Jewel from the L and walking distance to two WH and the TJs), and easy access to lots of other city neighborhoods. I used to run home from work, and you were in a great area basically the whole way home.
Oak Park to me is like a city neighborhood, almost (older burbs have downtowns, even Glencoe has a cute downtown although it’s small and everything closes early), but transportation is much more of a pain. A friend who goes out with us a lot lives there, and doesn’t have a car, and it takes her far more time to go anywhere, since she has to go by way of downtown. We do a lot of local theater, as well as more downtown-oriented things like CSO. On the other hand, her commute is as good or better than mine (either from Southport or LS, where I always get a seat and live closer to the L, so not much difference), and I do think OP is a nice place to live.
Other friends of mine are in Naperville and sure downtown is fine, but they live where you have to drive to downtown in an area that’s not that walkable. And they promoted how great the commute is, and it’s fine on weekdays, but a huge pain on weekends. I did the half marathon in Naperville one year (boring) and I recall they were promoting the marathon for people who didn’t get into Chicago and everyone was joking “but then you’d have to run a marathon in Naperville.”
‘Burbs are fine, though. I grew up in a mid-sized city in the middle of nowhere and thought people from the burbs were lucky.
WH=WF, beats me what that was about. And yes I go to all of the above.
” there IS a difference. You might not be mugged walking home in Oak Park or Evanston.”
What is the aggregate number of muggings of cc’ers in Chicago?
You have set up a strawman where mugging in Chicago is a certainty, and merely unlikely in the near burbs. Nice one.
“Just 3 [shake shacks] in the entire Chicago area”
Even teh Hof knows that there have been four for over a year. Even one in the burbs! (Have been to three of them, once each, including the one in the burbs after a track meet (not mine)).
Is anyone else watching the Starz documentary on OPRF High?
There are 5 Guys all over Chicago now. Ask Millennials in Lakeview. Do they go there? Um…yeah.
The 5 guys in Lakeview closed 2 years ago, so.. no.
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20160914/lakeview/five-guys-says-goodbye-lakeview-closed-saturday/
“But he’s not playing him in NY either.”
——————
he did do so in New York, now, didn’t he?. Did he ever do so in Chicago? Your silence will be deafening.
BTW — Bucktown ends at Armitage.
PLENTY of old school restaurants like Sabatino’s in the suburbs. ____________
Come now.
Sabatino’s has great Italian food, a real home-style atmosphere, AND had a cross-dressing (in his spare time) piano player. You didn’t have that in the suburbs, and nowhere else in Chicago that I heard of (I lived in the neighborhood in the ’90s).
Bet you had several such places in NYC, though, and its ‘burbs.
“Is anyone else watching the Starz documentary on OPRF High?”
Yes.
“BTW — Bucktown ends at Armitage.”
I dunno where this johnc character came from but his armitage boundary thing is almost endearing now. I don’t see how that can really be right though, since it’s west bucktown is indisputably south of armitage. How can west bucktown be south of armitage and regular btown be north.
apparently burbs dining is hot now:
https://thetakeout.com/a-food-snob-moves-to-the-suburbs-1829316972
“Sabatinos”
Is there anywhere else I can get a baked alaska?
Has anyone tried the supper clubs – e.g. Tortoise. I keep hearing it advertised on NPR and I’m really curious. Must be a Midwest thing because I never heard about it anywhere else.
I’ve had 2 great experiences at Tortoise supper club
Bernie’s supper club on the other hand, sucks ass
“Excellent news Milkster. What price point are we talking about that is so hot?”
Thank you for the encouragement, Sabrina.
I was looking in the 300K and under category.
Specifically for brick raised ranches on the Northwest Side.
I prefer residential neighborhoods which are walkable to grocery shopping, public transportation, parks, bars and restaurants.
But I don’t need the bars and restaurants to be trendy or expensive.
Good schools are a plus. I don’t have kids, but I prefer investing in a neighborhood where people care about these things.
I’ll do an extensive renovation, but it has to be a nice-looking house and lot with potential for serious curb-appeal. I won’t put lipstick on a pig.
I know it’s apples to oranges, but I CAN’T GET OVER the fact that you can buy a house and actually own the land it’s built on in the city of Chicago for under 300K in a nice neighborhood.
300K will barely buy you an ancient studio in a co-op in Queens with sky-high monthly maintenance fees plus special assessments for deferred maintenance over decades. You don’t even technically “own” the physical property in a co-op.
Chicago is a BARGAIN for a world class city.
C’mon Sabrina, super bad look for you with all the cityshaming and acting like everyone who has a different opinion from you is stupid. And now kids who go out to eat aren’t “athletic” like yours are? Please. My kids are 7 foot tall and rippled with lean muscle that they use to do amazing athletic feats 10 hours a day! They have more time now to relax now that they both got superspecialearly admission to Princeton. Fine to try to validate your own perspective but be honest that not everyone is just like you and try not to get so nasty with it.
I’m not saying that Chicago is Manhattan, but you shouldn’t carry on with this nonsense about what you consider “authentic” and trying to justify living in the Burbs as the only decision for any reasonable person to make.
And everyone I know who has seen both agrees that Cervantes is better by far (and I agree) in the role. Really nice guy too – have seen him a few times around the city (the neighborhood part, not the tourist part) and he is super friendly and gracious.
johnc:
“he did do so in New York, now, didn’t he?. Did he ever do so in Chicago? Your silence will be deafening.”
He last performed in the NYC production over 2 years ago. So for the last 2+ years it was an equivalent experience for 1/2 (or 1/3) the cost.
“But one does not come from New York to Chicago for MOST cultural experiences unless one want to go slumming.”
Please read the comment chain if you are going to follow up. I was saying some people come to Chicago for cultural experiences (even from cultural mecca NYC) but they aren’t stopping by the burbs on their way (ie burbs are lacking in similar cultural experiences). Nowhere do I say NYers come to Chicago for most cultural experiences nor do I suggest Chicago has the same quantity of cultural experiences as NYC.
And if you think Alinea is slumming it you’re crazy. It’s constantly trading best restaurant in the US honors with French Laundry / Per Se and 11 Mad Park. And I personally know someone from NYC that had season tickets to NEXT and flew in 3 times a year just to eat there.
“A bungalow in southie can easily be $100k less than its doppelganger on the NW side.”
“Try $200k.”
I’m not really seeing this to be true, but which neighborhoods do you mean specifically?
I’ve been following the area off the Orange Line around Midway Airport since 2010. I viewed quite a few homes with Denise Mitchell.
In 2010 – 2011 a bunch of the raised ranches were listed around 120K and closed around $110K. A lot of these weren’t even short sales. The owners had either passed away or wanted to move out of the neighborhood.
I hesitated to buy because although I found it very convenient to Midway, shopping and downtown and although I had a personal connection to the area, I wasn’t really sure which way things were going to go and the mass exodus of old timers was troubling. Also, speaking quite frankly, most of the new residents did not speak English and that was not appealing to me because I want to be able to communicate with and relate to my neighbors.
Today those same homes are listed in the 239 – 299K range, so really not any different from the Northwest Side.
Same with Bronzeville. You’ve got homes for 600K. No different from Lakeview or North Center.
I don’t like Hyde Park and have never followed it, so I don’t have any anecdotal evidence there.
“Today those same homes are listed in the 239 – 299K range, so really not any different from the Northwest Side.”
————————
That range isn’t selling. I follow the area, too. They sell when the price breaks to $200k or so. Some of the recent rehabs closed at $250k plus a skosh, but the majority go for $200k or so.
” dunno where this johnc character came from but his armitage boundary thing is almost endearing now. I don’t see how that can really be right though, since it’s west bucktown is indisputably south of armitage. How can west bucktown be south of armitage and regular btown be north.”
————————
Early on, in a different thread, I posted about a r. e. agent saying in the early 1990s that a house was in “West Bucktown.” Sorry, but that is Humboldt Park, as Sabrina noted (gave her a chuckle if I remember the posting).
There is no “West Bucktown.” “West Bucktown” is an abomination before the Lord.
” I personally know someone from NYC that had season tickets to NEXT and flew in 3 times a year just to eat there.”
I bet they are really liberal and anti-global warming too
that is the bougiest fucking thing I have ever heard and what a waste of money and resources
“BTW — Bucktown ends at Armitage.”
I was at the gym (Equinox) talking to a trainer and trying to describe where Myopic Books is and said “I can never remember what is UV vs. WP vs. Bucktown” and he said, with no prompting, isn’t North the border between WP and BT?
I said “yes, absolutely!” I did not explain why this pleased me so.
I’d love to see a study completed on how much people who live in the city actually utilize all the amenities. How many times do they go to the parks, museums, certain caliber restaurants, etc. The study would have to categorize amenities… fast casual chains vs say Alinea type places vs cool hipster mid price place.
Almost all our friends who still live in city do so more so for the commute to work and to feel like they are in the middle of things. However, the reality is that they rarely seem to actually participate in many of the cultural amenities. The reality is that they go to Starbucks and the same fast casual joints found all over the place more than anything.
While we don’t go as much now, wife & I used to go to NYC like five times a year to hang out when we were DINKS. However, we could never live there. Our friends who justify living there talk the whole center of the universe trope / amenities, etc yet they hardly ever did anything cultural. We know because we seem to know more about what was popping in NYC than they did because they hardly left their little neighborhood bubble starbucks and other chain restaurants.
“I’ve been following the area off the Orange Line around Midway Airport”
Southie isn’t just the far SW and HP. That’s like 10% of the southside.
And no, the areas around the far cheaper ones wouldn’t satisfy your requirements, Milkster. That’s, of course, a big reason they are less.
“And now kids who go out to eat aren’t “athletic” like yours are?”
If you spent countless years driving every weekend for your kids’ travel teams (and all the practices etc), you’d have to rationalize it too. Unless they get an athletic scholarship to HYP, in which case totally worth it.
“By the way, you DO realize that Birmingham has it’s own Au Cheval, right?”
probably this place: http://www.fonfonbham.com/
but also consistently on best of list is Jack Brown’s Beer & Burger Joint.
But of most relevant note is that the current top burger in B’ham, according to Yelp (so, not *actually*) is at the Shake Shack.
So, yeah, it does seem you can go to Shake Shack “everywhere”.
“an athletic scholarship to HYP”
Is this actually a thing?? Better ramp up the squash lessons!!
“Is this actually a thing??”
Okay, you got me. So that can’t be teh payoff. It’s back to making fun of people who have time to dine out w their kids in the city.
“shake shack”
Their fries are those terrible crinkly frozen kind right? I went once and didn’t like.
” was at the gym (Equinox) talking to a trainer and trying to describe where Myopic Books is and said “I can never remember what is UV vs. WP vs. Bucktown” and he said, with no prompting, isn’t North the border between WP and BT?
I said “yes, absolutely!” I did not explain why this pleased me so.”
—————————
Now there’s an authority — the trainer at the gym. Why pay 5% to a real estate agent when you can get a gym personal trainer to select real estate for you.
Is the trainer young? Was this trainer even alive in the 1990s?
Is it still the 90s? Are you posting comments from your Palm Pilot??
We all refuse to acknowledge this newly formed Eritrea thing, because borders are immutable, right?
“those terrible crinkly frozen kind”
They tried switching. It was described as a “debacle”:
https://www.fastcompany.com/3047019/shake-shacks-french-fry-debacle-and-how-it-recovered-from-its-biggest-mistake
“that is the bougiest fucking thing I have ever heard”
Says the man with an aston martin.
“Is it still the 90s? Are you posting comments from your Palm Pilot??
We all refuse to acknowledge this newly formed Eritrea thing, because borders are immutable, right?”
—————————
Eritrea was formed as a result of a multi-decade physical war, which says something about what it takes to change borders.
I like Gary’s Chicagonow column, so if he decides to wage war on Pacific Sotheby’s International Realty, let me know. I might volunteer for the commando unit to seize and secure the Wicker Park Historical District.
Oh, drat! I looked at the map! The Wicker Park Historical District is North of North Avenue!
Bucktown ends at Armitage.
oh god here it comes *eyeroll*
Oh, have we moved on to the ’90s now? I thought the ’80s were supposed to be when borders were set in stone.
JohnnyU on September 25th, 2018 at 10:00 am
“Huh…I live in Bucktown and take my kids to Hot Chocolate, Publican Ankar, Bristol, etc all the time.”
Those arent Topolobampo
In most of the nicer suburbs, you can find similar food options (Gastropub, etc…)
No you can’t. Most suburbs have nothing like the those places. How Michelin acknowledged restaurants are in the suburbs?
I think it’s down to 0.
“I’d love to see a study completed on how much people who live in the city actually utilize all the amenities. How many times do they go to the parks, museums, certain caliber restaurants, etc. The study would have to categorize amenities… fast casual chains vs say Alinea type places vs cool hipster mid price place.”
Basically we do one of those things every weekend.
We never go to fast casual chains in the City.
And whoever above said the suburbs have comparable restaurants to the City is either clueless or has no taste buds.
“oh god here it comes”
Let he without the bougie car and the bougie speakers cast the first bougie stone.
But make sure it’s not granite, because granite is sooooooo 2007.
It just amuses me that you find that the bougie step too far.
“Oh, have we moved on to the ’90s now? I thought the ’80s were supposed to be when borders were set in stone.”
——————–
Not according to the r. e. agents flogging their wares. I think bucktown’s borders were set in the 1880s. So, yeah, the ’80s.
Bucktown is not part of Chicago. Chicago’s city borders were set in stone in 1835 but real estate agents kept trying to extend the borders. Borders don’t change over time.
“Chicago’s city borders were set in stone in 1835 but real estate agents kept trying to extend the borders. Borders don’t change over time.”
————————-
You forget the fact that Chicago declared war on the surrounding towns and annexed them. The last major annexation was in the 1950s when King Richard I bribed the rules of Rosemont with a 48 inch water pipe and free/reduced rate water for scumpty-ump years to cede land to Chicago in order to allow Chicago to annex O’Hare Airport. There was a minor land grab a few years ago where Chicago bulldozed dozens of homes before the court appeals over the land grab were done — that was the war part.
The land around O’Hare is now known as Bucktown Annex XXXIII — just ask any real estate agent.
It’s perfect, two of the conversational threads are now one. Because borders don’t change Lake View remains outside Chicago and is officially a suburb.
And as a Lake View Township resident, I must be a celery farmer.
More seriously, because I’m just geeky enough to care, when I was looking at houses (and when I bought one) I would research the history. One place I looked at turned out to have a tragic story — the wife and child there in 1900 both died in the Iroquois Theater fire three years later.
With respect to the house I now own, I researched the developer (he was a real estate developer and banker at Lincoln Trust and Savings on Lincoln just south of Irving), and some of the ads for the sales of the lots, and then the even person who originally sold the land on which this particular development was built. In 1860, husband and wife were in Lakeview, Cook, and he was, of course, a farmer.
“And as a Lake View Township resident, I must be a celery farmer.”
—————
As a farmer, you must be a foodie. Which suburbs do you go to for dinners out?
Obviously the suburb of Lake View.
Precisely.
“It just amuses me that you find that the bougie step too far.”
I think ponies just likes the attention. Plus the car is much higher class (def not bougie) than next (bougie).
Thank you. I think that guy needs a call from the FTC.
“Oh, drat! I looked at the map! The Wicker Park Historical District is North of North Avenue!”
So Wicker Park stops at Wabansia then. Actually, there is no reason for a historical district to define a neighborhood. What else are you going to call a district that extends into Bucktown but is mostly in Wicker Park?
“And whoever above said the suburbs have comparable restaurants to the City is either clueless or has no taste buds.”
I don’t think anyone said the restaurants were “comparable.” All that is argued is that many of the same restaurants that are in some of the neighborhoods like Southport, Gold Coast, Lincoln Park, Lincoln Square, to name a few, are also found in the downtowns of several suburbs.
It’s really not that different going to the Francesca’s in Lakeview or the one in Naperville. Ditto for the Rosebud or the Sullivan’s.
There’s no fine dining in Southport. If you’re eating near your home there every week, it’s not any different than eating near your home in downtown Naperville.
“We never go to fast casual chains in the City.”
Too bad. Epic and Small Cheval are quite good.
“No you can’t. Most suburbs have nothing like the those places. How Michelin acknowledged restaurants are in the suburbs?”
There used to be Michelin restaurants in the burbs. Gasp! Just not right now.
But the city is losing that shine too. Down to just 22 from 25 last year. Articles even asking if “fine dining” is losing steam in Chicago. All of you go every weekend to a fine dining establishment. You tell me.
“Unless they get an athletic scholarship to HYP, in which case totally worth it.”
No one gets an athletic scholarship. That’s not the goal. If your kid is really gifted they may get a partial (like 25% or 50% of a scholarship). But that’s rare (despite the scholarships given out to football and basketball players – which is a different thing.)
Ivy League doesn’t give out athletic scholarships but it has sports teams. And they all need players. Just like the school orchestra needs violinists. It’s not just grades which gets you into UCLA, Stanford or Harvard, it’s your other special abilities. Not everyone can pole vault or play competitive tennis.
The grades and test scores needed to get in go waaaay down if you’re a fencer and the women’s fencing team needs players.
And this is true of nearly every school. Even Division 3 which doesn’t give out scholarships either. The schools have teams and coaches. They’re not paying for coaching staff for nothing. Your child doesn’t even need to be an all-star but if they have their eye on a certain school, they can use athletic abilities to get that admission ticket.
In my opinion, that’s really what the sports is all about. There are too many kids with near perfect test scores and top high school grades. But, again, not many left handed baseball pitchers or women’s gymnasts.
“The reality is that they go to Starbucks and the same fast casual joints found all over the place more than anything.”
Yep. The Starbucks in Southport and Roscoe Village are, gasp, packed with people on the weekends.
Go figure?
“And now kids who go out to eat aren’t “athletic” like yours are?”
I never said that kids who go out to eat aren’t athletic. But they’re not playing organized sports. Because if they are, they’re out at the parks until it gets dark out (unless they’re really small, like 5 years old, and then it’s just the mornings.) But otherwise, once they’re in high school, it’s all day on the weekends and usually until late in the day. No time to eat out at some fine dining establishment. We were lucky to eat anything. I used to pack sandwiches. Gasp!
Different strokes for different folks. Every child is different.
“Chicago is a BARGAIN for a world class city.”
Yes, it is. Thanks for the reminder Milkster.
Look at what you can get right downtown. Heck, you can get a 1,000 square foot one bedroom with views and washer/dryer in the unit (in-unit w/d is rare in most NYC apartments) for under $500,000. Try finding that in an equivalent neighborhood in NYC, LA, SF or DC.
You won’t find it.
People don’t realize how lucky they are to live here. Lower prices really lower the stress level.
“The 5 guys in Lakeview closed 2 years ago, so.. no.”
I guess you’re right Madeline. Lol. Maybe Millennials didn’t go there. Ha! But apparently they must go to the other ones. I think there are several that are in Lincoln Park. Although Five Guys is not my favorite so if those closed down, I wouldn’t be sad.
“Even teh Hof knows that there have been four for over a year.”
Um…where?
River North was the first. Michigan Avenue the second. Then they opened in Northbrook Court. Am I missing the fourth one????
It’s been on a spree of opening 100 restaurants so that they can steal customers from the ones they already opened and call it “growth.”
Soon to open in that “authentic” Chicago neighborhood formerly known as Wrigleyville, across from the Starbucks and next to the national movie theater chain which sells seats for $25 each. Oh- and you can go down the street to the Harley store after you’re done eating.
So much “culture.” Have never seen any of that out there in those suburbs.
“You have set up a strawman where mugging in Chicago is a certainty, and merely unlikely in the near burbs.”
Sadly, I’ve been walking about this fair city for over 10 years now to run this blog. There are now certain neighborhoods I will not go, which wasn’t true 10 years ago. Or even five years ago.
And now, even in the finest neighborhoods in the middle of the day, I take nothing. No credit cards. No phone. Only $20 in case I have an emergency, and my camera. I leave my keys in my pocket so they can just take the bag and leave.
That’s how bad the muggings are in the middle of the day in the GreenZone.
Sadly.
This is why Rahm was in real trouble in the mayoral race (among other things.)
“River North was the first. Michigan Avenue the second. Then they opened in Northbrook Court. Am I missing the fourth one????”
I remember now. Ah, that one in the West Loop. I’m sure Oakbrook Mall is soon to come too though. Lol.
“I never said that kids who go out to eat aren’t athletic. But they’re not playing organized sports. Because if they are, they’re out at the parks until it gets dark out (unless they’re really small, like 5 years old, and then it’s just the mornings.)”
We eat out Mon – Thurs (or on rare occasion, order in) BECAUSE of sports. Kids have soccer Mon and Wed and climbing Tues and Wed until 6, and it’s easier for them to just meet me at a restaurant than for us to go home and start cooking dinner at 6:15 (I’ll typically get to the restaurant around 6 and order for everyone so it comes out when they arrive). It’s not very economical, but it’s convenient. We make dinner at home when there’s no sports activities.
“There used to be Michelin restaurants in the burbs. Gasp! Just not right now.”
From their Web site it looks like they only cover major cities.
Vie in Western Springs had a star
“So Wicker Park stops at Wabansia then. Actually, there is no reason for a historical district to define a neighborhood. What else are you going to call a district that extends into Bucktown but is mostly in Wicker Park?”
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What makes you think it extends into Bucktown? You assume, without basis, that neighborhoods must extend to the next neighborhood. They don’t. There can be gaps between, like the one South of Armitage between Bucktown and Wicker Park.
Given r. e. agent self interest in the matter, and the admitted habit of r. e. agents misrepresenting and stretching boundaries to hustle their goods, methinks thou dost protest too much.
“Lincoln Trust and Savings on Lincoln just south of Irving”
Second floor of the bank is a residence now. Can find an old listing with pix, tho.
Please explain how the boundaries of a neighborhood matter to a real estate agent, keeping in mind that we represent buyers just as often as we represent sellers and that any good buyer’s agent is going to be aware of how values change from one side of a street to the other, regardless of what neighborhood the listing says it’s in.
Frankly, the only people who seem to care what the neighborhood is called is sellers, who desperately want to believe that tweaking two words in the listing description is going to net them an extra $20K. If only it were that simple.
“Then they opened in Northbrook Court.”
If there is one in Northbrook, that would make 5.
“sellers, who desperately want to believe that tweaking two words in the listing description”
Bucktown is in the attendance area for Skinner North and Payton College Prep, right??
I don’t see any particular pattern these days suggesting that Wicker Park in general is less favored than Bucktown in general. Depends on the specific property, the specific location.
School district would, of course, matter (so the boundary between those would be important). Which is one reason actual location is more important than neighborhood name (and some parts of Lakeview are more desirable than others, at least to some buyers).
Anyway, I never cared what Bucktown’s borders were prior to reading this blog.
In reading back some of the old (2009s) posts, I note that there is no debate about WP vs. Bucktown borders (even though Sabrina seems to have also used North back then), and that both neighborhoods are thought to be likely to disproportionately lose value vs some other areas and to be more hipsterish than GZ (which I don’t think was actually true by then, I think they were GZ).
“Please explain how the boundaries of a neighborhood matter to a real estate agent, keeping in mind that we represent buyers just as often as we represent sellers and that any good buyer’s agent is going to be aware of how values change from one side of a street to the other, regardless of what neighborhood the listing says it’s in.
Frankly, the only people who seem to care what the neighborhood is called is sellers, who desperately want to believe that tweaking two words in the listing description is going to net them an extra $20K. If only it were that simple.”
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Rubbish. You get a buyer who says “I want a hot neighborhood ‘cuz it’ll be easier to sell down the line. I hear Bucktown’s hot. Show me Bucktown.” Buyer’s agent finds a house in Wicker Park (great neighborhood, but not Bucktown). Tells buyer “the house is in Bucktown.” Buyer doesn’t know any better. Buyer buys. R. E. agent pockets commission and moves on to next customer.
And the personal trainer at the gym validates the purchase.
“There’s no fine dining in Southport. If you’re eating near your home there every week, it’s not any different than eating near your home in downtown Naperville.”
You’re right – you have to walk a whopping ONE BLOCK west of Southport in Lake View to get to Entente which is one of ONLY 136 restaurants in the US to earn a Michelin star. Oh – there are also 4 Bib Grourmand restaurants (recognized for excellent food at a reasonable price) in Lake View. Try walking to a Michelin recognized place from Naperville.
Of course there are chain restaurants that are in both LV and Naperville – that is the definition of chain restaurants – they are everywhere. Its the non-overlapping places you should be focusing on.
“Rubbish. You get a buyer who says …. R. E. agent pockets commission and moves on to next customer.”
You are correct. There are many idiot realtors out there. So you believe that 1) There is consistency between the stories these idiot realtors tell to their clients. 2) Everyone eventually believes this consistent story and it becomes the new normal because everyone believes the stories that idiot realtors tell – except a few enlightened folks that believe borders are immutable.
Oh…and most importantly…3) There are lots of buyers out there that care about the name of a neighborhood more than it’s actual character or the school attendance boundaries. Actually, I’m not sure I’ve met any of those.
The top 3 fine dining restaurants in Naperville according to Tripadvisor are Hugos, Catch 35 and Sullivans! LOL. All chains. The top 3 in Chicago are Joes (chain), Alinea (3 michelin stars) and Boka (1 michelin star).
The only way I can rationalize Sabrina’s arguing this is she is saying most of the time people will go to the same restaurants regardless of if they are in the suburbs or the city so being in the city doesn’t mean anything most of the time. This may be true of her situation but not mine or my friends.
“You are correct. There are many idiot realtors out there. So you believe that 1) There is consistency between the stories these idiot realtors tell to their clients. 2) Everyone eventually believes this consistent story and it becomes the new normal because everyone believes the stories that idiot realtors tell – except a few enlightened folks that believe borders are immutable.”
——————-
Yup, and one of the consistencies in the idiot realtors’ stories is that Bucktown goes South of Armitage.
Borders change with war or annexation — which given how Chicago annexes land, is the same thing. When was the Great Bucktown War? I never heard anyone singing “Bucktown uber alles” when I lived there.
———————–
“Oh…and most importantly…3) There are lots of buyers out there that care about the name of a neighborhood more than it’s actual character or the school attendance boundaries. Actually, I’m not sure I’ve met any of those.”
————————
I’ve met a lot, and I’m not in the real estate business. People hear about a neighborhood and maybe they don’t like it once they take a look around, but lots of buyers will endure a lot of things to make sure they are in “the right ‘hood.”
As we’ve seen even in this thread, a lot of people will endure a lot of negatives to make sure that they live in the city and not in the ‘burbs, or vice versa. Why should wanting to live in a hot neighborhood (or hating one) be any different?
“… eating near your home in downtown Naperville.”
Naperville has a huge land area. There are few people eating near their homes, certainly not walkable, if they are eating in downtown Naperville.
“And the personal trainer at the gym validates the purchase.”
Personal trainer (who insists he’s Gen X, btw, although I keep telling him he’s a millennial) doesn’t think Bucktown or WP is all that hot right now. Logan Square and Avondale are hotter (not more expensive, although parts of LS are getting there).
“Naperville has a huge land area. There are few people eating near their homes, certainly not walkable, if they are eating in downtown Naperville.”
That’s really what seems different to me, apart from the restaurant choice. Southport is a walkable neighborhood in a way that Naperville is not.
Oak Park is more like Southport in some ways, so it’s not a hard burb vs. city distinction.
It’s also really easy to walk from Southport to other parts of LV or LP or Lincoln Square or NC if you want to — there are various neighborhoods running into each other. Or take the train or Clark bus to Andersonville, etc.
Oak Park is great and I can totally understand wanting to live there (I looked there) but it’s less convenient to get to parts of the city other than downtown (or off the green line from downtown) than from many other city neighborhoods. Similar issue with HP, except that I think HP has fewer amenities than OP also.
I don’t think there’s a thing wrong with living in the ‘burbs and it’s not like you can never come and do fun things in the city, but the experience is different in some ways that for many people will be important.
I wouldn’t use Michelin as the benchmark for a great dining scene, they are notoriously biased towards classic European, french and colonial menus, it’s still awesome to have them reviewing Chicago but they are definitely not the end all be all and frankly they’ve been diminishing their brand lately globally imho. We used to be all about getting to the all the starred restaurants we could then one day wee realized most of them a boring as f*ck. But different stokes right – there’s plenty of cute little places along the Fox River, maybe not Michelin starred, but solid and charming for outdoor dining during warm months.
“there’s plenty of cute little places along the Fox River”
Doesn’t matter. If you have kids (and if you don’t, why are you paying N’ville taxes??), you’ll never go to any of them, anyway.
May as well live in Joliet–they have all the same chains there, too.
“Personal trainer (who insists he’s Gen X, btw, although I keep telling him he’s a millennial) doesn’t think Bucktown or WP is all that hot right now. Logan Square and Avondale are hotter (not more expensive, although parts of LS are getting there).”
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So generations are fluid, too?! Where does it all end!
My problem with the “fluid borders” concept is philosophical. In another thread someone mentioned that the eastern part of Logan Square was hot, green zone, what-have-you, and the western part was still dicey. Okay, but if a border is fluid, what is to prevent a real estate agent from trying to improve his sales pitch of the qualities of Logan Square to a customer by pulling back/lopping off/receding “Logan Square” from the “dicey” western part and simply saying “that’s not Logan Square.” The problem with “fluid” — as I pointed out in that thread — is that it can ebb as well as flow.
That’s why border change is glacial at best, certainly not fluid, and there’s no way in Hell self-interested players can claim a change that doubles the size of a neighborhood in under 10 years and expect to receive no opposition.
Well, if an idiot buyer is working with an idiot realtor anything can happen. Like I said…we don’t have those conversations. It’s all about school boundaries and if someone wants to know about crime I refer them to my crime maps. My guess is that the reason that the Bucktown border moved south was that enough people felt it should be so that it became so and it made sense.
“My guess is that the reason that the Bucktown border moved south was that enough people felt it should be so that it became so and it made sense.”
———————
And my guess is that the “people” you refer to were/are r.e. agents and it made sense by increasing the price/speed (time is money) of houses being sold. Self-interested actors/hucksters/promoters don’t have a valid claim of authority to make that kind of change.
So the border remains unchanged, marketing and bootstrapping to the contrary.
“I wouldn’t use Michelin as the benchmark for a great dining scene”
People who care about dining do use it as a benchmark. It and the James Beard awards are the highest recognition a chef can get and will be their calling card until they die.
“frankly they’ve been diminishing their brand lately globally imho”
Sorry but if you don’t think Michelin stars mean anything then your “ho” isn’t relevant.
“notoriously biased towards classic European, french and colonial menus”
Not in the US – most places are fusion or new American food – esp in Chicago. There is 1 french place (Everest), 1 Italian (Spiaggia) and the rest are new american or ethnic.
If you think Michelin starred places are boring and you’d rather get cheaper eats on the Fox River that’s fine. But people who care about food know Michelin stars matter. It was a HUGE deal for Chicago that Michelin put out a Chicago guide. It meant chefs from other cities would come here to make a name for themselves (get a star or work in a starred kitchen). Then they’d open a place here if they were good enough to try and get a star themselves – meaning they were set for life basically.
Again, this idea that Bucktown sells, WP doesn’t is not supported. Also, most people are not going to rely on their RE agent to tell them what is in what neighborhood, unless they are moving from out of town and don’t have access to the internet (which seems unlikely).
“Okay, but if a border is fluid, what is to prevent a real estate agent from trying to improve his sales pitch of the qualities of Logan Square to a customer by pulling back/lopping off/receding “Logan Square” from the “dicey” western part and simply saying “that’s not Logan Square.”
What would be the harm of this, other than it being silly (I’m not even understanding what you think this RE agent would be accomplishing).
Logan Square, btw, is a community area, so has to be listed on the MLS according to whatever the official boundaries are (as does Lakeview, Lincoln Park). Bucktown isn’t a community area, so if it gets included it might be in a description, same with Southport (which is really a part of Lakeview).
Know what my listing said about area? Blaine School District.
“meaning they were set for life basically” Um no, a lot of them close up shop after getting one saying its not worth the effort for the reward – see West Town or Crofton, two examples where they threw in the towel. Michelin is great for Europe, it’s cute they cover some cities in America, but they are totally classic French method ( not the food per se but the methods, dining room, set up) You can basically get the same 2 star meal in NY, Chi, SF, same plates, same utensils, same foam, same interior design. Like I said different strokes, we got all into it for a few years and it got old and boring fast. By the third trip to L20, or Avenues ( better than Aliena, RIP) or Acadia, its just not fun anymore and the service is nothing like it used to be anywhere including NY. Our new mission is dining while avoiding big restaurant groups, Michelin Stars unless personally recommended by chef friends who also agree the scene is stale, or ethnic hole in the walls be they in the city or burbs. We have been following James Beard awards far more than Michelin now, I think they are way more relevant to American regional tastes.
marko – “set for life” means they can use it as a calling card for the rest of their lives. West town tavern didn’t have a star. Crofton closed and Suzy Crofton got a corporate job with a hotel group.
“Like I said different strokes”
Fine – you disagree w/ Michelin guide – but the rest of world sees it as the benchmark for fine dining. Don’t act otherwise.
“Our new mission is dining while avoiding big restaurant groups, Michelin Stars unless personally recommended by chef friends”
Good for you. I agree – not every good restaurant has a star – but every restaurant that has a star is good. If they are worth the $$ is another question.
“chef friends who also agree the scene is stale”
sure….
https://www.bonappetit.com/story/chicago-restaurant-city-of-the-year-2017
“2. A Suburban Food Court Is One of the Most Exciting Places to Eat” lol
Go ahead and keep dropping a G for dinner to be cool Yoss
“Again, this idea that Bucktown sells, WP doesn’t is not supported.”
——————-
I never said that Wicker Park doesn’t sell.
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“Okay, but if a border is fluid, what is to prevent a real estate agent from trying to improve his sales pitch of the qualities of Logan Square to a customer by pulling back/lopping off/receding “Logan Square” from the “dicey” western part and simply saying “that’s not Logan Square.”
What would be the harm of this, other than it being silly[?]
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It would be a misrepresentation of the facts. That’s the harm. Your remark reveals a rather cavalier attitude towards the fiduciary duty r. e. agents like to tout (leaving aside dual agency — don’t get me started on that).
““2. A Suburban Food Court Is One of the Most Exciting Places to Eat” lol
Go ahead and keep dropping a G for dinner to be cool Yoss”
marko – it was too easy to get you to walk into this one knowing you’d be doing zero research as evidenced by your prior posts.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/ct-food-hanbun-owners-opening-jeong-0913-story.html
I don’t drop 1k for dinner to be cool. Its usually 200 a couple unless its Alinea / Oriole caliber. I’m old – pretty hard to be “cool” when you’re middle aged w/ kids so I just do what I like to do which is have nice meals with friends and try new restaurants. I enjoy going out for 3 hr dinners with friends – probably as much as you enjoy those warm quiet dinners on the Fox River.
“It would be a misrepresentation of the facts. That’s the harm. Your remark reveals a rather cavalier attitude towards the fiduciary duty r. e. agents like to tout (leaving aside dual agency — don’t get me started on that).”
It just doesn’t ring true to me at all. Makes no sense.
I don’t think RE agents normally try to tell their clients to buy in particular neighborhoods. My experience has been more like “I am looking in these areas” or “I’d like to see something near here” and then they respond. Why would they hard sell me on LS? And why would I rely on a RE agent for the boundaries of LS? (Not to mention that LS is a community area, again.)
What you were originally complaining about was actually SABRINA describing a property as in WP, when the listing did not in one case, and in the other said it was WP/Bucktown area. The MLS requires community area to be stated, which it was, correctly. Oh, and then we pointed out that many other current sources supported what Sabrina had said about the area boundaries, including semi recent news pieces from DNA Chicago and the Trib and — what I am relying on — the local community organizations.
You insist that is somehow all based on these hypothetical but all-powerful RE agents who for some reason desperately want to redefine areas as in Bucktown even though WP is actually probably as hot these days and only silly people are even that obsessed with neighborhood names. Your belief that everyone wants desperately to be able to say they live in Bucktown makes no sense. I mean, I’m glad having that address was such a boon to your ego in the ’80s (which is what I am getting from this), but really most people likely don’t care whether an address is in one or the other, which is why I’m happy to go with what the community organizations say and what seems to be the common understanding these days.
And to get to the restaurant topic, you can easily walk from restaurants in both places if you live in one or the other. They haven’t built a wall between them yet!
“I don’t think RE agents normally try to tell their clients to buy in particular neighborhoods. My experience has been more like “I am looking in these areas” or “I’d like to see something near here” and then they respond. Why would they hard sell me on LS? And why would I rely on a RE agent for the boundaries of LS? (Not to mention that LS is a community area, again.) ”
——————————
Nobody (and certainly not I) said that RE agents “hard sell” customers to buy in certain neighborhoods. The fact that you mis-state what I stated, however, show I am hitting close to the bone. Customers say “show me Bucktown” and RE agent represents a property as being in Bucktown. No “hard sell,” but certainly a misrepresentation in violation of an RE agent’s fiduciary duty.
As for “reliance” on RE agent representation” WTF do you think “fiduciary duty” means?
Note, if you please, that RE agents are not shilling “community” areas — they shill hot “neighborhoods.”
And in reference to an earlier post — if Wicker Park sells (and it does) why would an RE agent push a Bucktown definition? — because Bucktown (at the time of the sale) was “hotter,” and therefore meant a faster/higher commission.
Gary being a STEM degree can tell you — which has more energy; steam or boiling water [He can tell you about phase transition]? Meaning, boys and girls, if Bucktown is steam, and Wicker Park is boiling water, the “so what” misrepresentation is going to Bucktown.
That’s a violation of fiduciary duty, and fiduciary duty has nothing to do with “stupid-enough-to-rely-on-me” reliance. In fact, that’s the whole point about “fiduciary” duty.
Nobody said RE agents are all powerful — I just said RE agents cannot bootstrap their shills into facts. If RE agents were all powerful, then the borders of Bucktown would extend South of Armitage.
Alas, for all the hopes and aspirations of RE Agents and their buyers, Bucktown ends at Armitage.
“And to get to the restaurant topic, you can easily walk from restaurants in both places if you live in one or the other. They haven’t built a wall between them yet!”
————-
I assume this is not directed at me. I don’t think I said anything about walking distances to restaurants.
I agree, however, living in the City means great restaurants (starred, Bearded, or not) are often in walking distance.
Milk — El Solazo (a great food experience) is in the Midway Airport area. Birrieria Zaragoza is nationally known. Neither will give you great visuals, but the food is to die for.
And (gag), a Chipolte opened recently near 55th and Pulaski. With scores of authentic Mexican restaurants in spitting distance of each other,why someone would reduce himself to Chipolte is beyond me.
“I wouldn’t use Michelin as the benchmark for a great dining scene, they are notoriously biased towards classic European, french and colonial menus,”
A private French company can award stars to whomever it wants. If it prefers “classic European, french and colonial menus”, then so be it. Who are you to complaint. Go start your own award system. They’re a private company and if they believe that “classic European, french and colonial menus” are the best cuisine, then its their prerogative.
“because Bucktown (at the time of the sale) was “hotter,” and therefore meant a faster/higher commission.”
But it’s not hotter today so by your reasoning the border of Bucktown should revert to Armitage. What you don’t want to admit to is that these neighborhood definitions are ill-defined to begin with and popular opinion matters in the end. If you conducted a survey today I believe most people would put the southern border at North Avenue or maybe as far north as the Bloomington trail.
“Customers say “show me Bucktown” and RE agent represents a property as being in Bucktown.”
This is 1985 thinking when only real estate agents had access to the MLS listings. Remember the 90s when they would fax you a list of all the “recently listed” properties with the listing?
It’s insane to think that went on.
Today, consumers are already conducting their own searches on the Redfin app (or whatever other site they like to use.) Buyers know what is coming on the market and what is listed in their desired neighborhoods.
Now, some new residents or transfers may not know the exact boundaries of certain neighborhoods but it’s doubtful someone is going to be faked out by their realtor and buy in Humboldt Park when they really wanted Bucktown.
“May as well live in Joliet–they have all the same chains there, too.”
Nope. They don’t.
“Personal trainer (who insists he’s Gen X, btw, although I keep telling him he’s a millennial)”
Oldest millennials are 37 now (from all the most common generation age ranges I’ve seen. But some 38 year olds also claim it.) The youngest are now 20. If you have a 19 year old child, they are Gen Z.
Is your personal trainer is in his late 30s? Then he’s Gen X.
“Customers say “show me Bucktown” and RE agent represents a property as being in Bucktown. No “hard sell,” but certainly a misrepresentation in violation of an RE agent’s fiduciary duty.”
I don’t think this is happening. I think it has no bearing on real life. In real life someone says “I’m interested in Bucktown, maybe WP, maybe these other neighborhoods, want this or that, want to spend this or that.” Agent shows a lot of places, says WP is actually even more popular than BT these days, or a better deal or what not if lacking inventory in BT. You go to open houses, look at places, pick one. The agent isn’t telling you what’s in what neighborhood, the listing (which your agent didn’t write) likely says some stuff which you read, if you ask about definitions of neighborhoods or how good they are the agent may or may not have good stuff to tell you based on his or her understanding.
There’s no fiduciary duty issue based on saying Bucktown goes to North. That’s a reasonable belief (it’s even true under community definitions), and it’s not the kind of thing FD claims are based on anyway. The official location is in the MLS and oh right there’s a map if you look at redfin. This is all so silly and not based on RL behavior.
“Note, if you please, that RE agents are not shilling “community” areas — they shill hot “neighborhoods.””
Why would they need to? They likely “shill” (to the extent you use a shill) properties more than neighborhoods.
“And in reference to an earlier post — if Wicker Park sells (and it does) why would an RE agent push a Bucktown definition? — because Bucktown (at the time of the sale) was “hotter,” and therefore meant a faster/higher commission.”
As Gary said, I don’t think it is now. I also don’t think that’s really how it worked even back then.
That a neighborhood is priced higher doesn’t mean agents will try to push you to that neighborhoods. They might show you a bigger/nicer place in the cheaper neighborhood (not pretending it is a totally different neighborhood, IME). I think puffery of various sorts happens, but IME most RE agents do want you to be happy (and use them again, especially if you sell).
And if you were right about Bucktown vs WP, and WP was inherently cheaper, that should be baked into the price, so why try to push a place in WP (pretending it was BT) when the Bucktown places would be more.
It’s the seller who wants to make the place seem better than it is, really, and this neighborhood thing is silly because unless you are talking about pre internet and people with little knowledge of Chicago, it doesn’t actually have an effect.
BUSINESSES likely changed the borders because they thought (way back in the day, not now) people wanted to hang out in BT and WP wasn’t yet as gentrified/popular.
And today people tend to think Bucktown ends at Bloomington or North, as WP and Bucktown (community organizations) both claim (both claim the area between the two).
Yeah, he’s a younger Gen X.
“The only way I can rationalize Sabrina’s arguing this is she is saying most of the time people will go to the same restaurants regardless of if they are in the suburbs or the city so being in the city doesn’t mean anything most of the time. This may be true of her situation but not mine or my friends.”
Um…no.
Again. This is the scenario. You’re 40. You have 3 kids. You and your spouse work. You live in Southport. Where do you go to eat dinner?
Crosby’s and whatever else is on Southport! Wow- imagine that.
No “fine” dining there. Are you bundling up your 12 year old, 8 year old and 6 year old to go to Alinea or Boka? No- because the 12 year old was at chess club camp all day Saturday and the 8 year old had 2 soccer games while the 6 year old had to go to a birthday party in Lincoln Park. So the husband takes the 12 year old and 8 year old and the wife takes the 6 year old, in your two separate cars. Most of the day.
By Saturday night, everyone is tired and hungry. You get pizza.
This SAME scenario would play out in Naperville too. Only there, you’re walking from your house in downtown Naperville over to the Lou Malnati’s or Giordano’s.
BOTH couples get in their cars to drive to “fine” dining. Sure- the city couple could Uber or cab and it’s closer. The Naperville couple goes the furthest so they don’t come into the city. The Oak Park couple, as Russ has recounted, stays in Oak Park but sometimes comes into the city either via subway/metra or the fairly quick drive (just 9 miles from downtown in Oak Park.)
Every day life gets in the way. No one is doing fine dining, or even their really good local dive joint, every night of the week. Kids have homework and things going on. Parents are working late or out of town for work every once in a while.
If you and your family, city or suburb, are going to all the trendy and dynamic restaurants several times a week- more power to you. Hooray!
But as one of Chicago’s restaurant owners said this week, “if you don’t go to your local restaurant, they will shut down” as he did even though the restaurant was highly regarded and in a “trendy” neighborhood.
“Oldest millennials are 37 now (from all the most common generation age ranges I’ve seen. But some 38 year olds also claim it.)”
Sabrina, some marketer may want to shill 38 year olds as millennials but that doesn’t make it so. These generations are not fluid. Millennials may not be older than 37.
“Tells buyer “the house is in Bucktown.” Buyer doesn’t know any better. Buyer buys. R. E. agent pockets commission and moves on to next customer.”
Again, this is 1985 thinking but this is 2018. Everyone is online and has tons of information available to them.
“If there is one in Northbrook, that would make 5.”
Sorry- Old Orchard. At the mall. That’s why I believe they’ll soon be in Oak Brook too. But I don’t know if they are.
And, no, they aren’t “everywhere.” They have decided to do an aggressive rollout of about 100 stores so that means all the secondary cities will get one. I don’t understand this strategy. They were popular because they were kind of rare so tourists went there. Once they’re in all the smaller cities, why do you need to go to one in Chicago or LA?
“Sabrina, some marketer may want to shill 38 year olds as millennials but that doesn’t make it so. These generations are not fluid. Millennials may not be older than 37.”
Lol!
“But it’s not hotter today so by your reasoning the border of Bucktown should revert to Armitage.”
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The damage was done when r. e. agents said that it was Bucktown back when Bucktown was hotter than Wicker Park.
And there’s no need to “revert” to Armitage because by my reasoning it never left Armitage.
As an RE agent you cannot represent an neighborhood for what it is not. At a minimum, you have to give your customers (I can’t call them clients when RE agents (Gary, bless him, excepted) try to create “dual agents” ) the opposing view.
As for 37 year old millennials — dunno.I stopped going to the gym in 1980 when I left the Marine Corps. Back then I had muscles in my s**t and could prove it.
“Sabina – Again, this is 1985 thinking but this is 2018. Everyone is online and has tons of information available to them.”
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Uh, no. If you, or anyone else in the “profession” want to whine that you are professionals BECAUSE you have a fiduciary relationship to your client, then you have a duty to inform your clients of ALL of the facts, independent of the client’s sources of information.
My God, have the standards of real estate industry fallenb.
Johnc,
Actually, Related Midwest (a real estate shill) is trying to change the definition of the community areas by carving out The 78. They must not know that cannot fly.
EW!! LOL. Talk about visuals.
“By Saturday night, everyone is tired and hungry. You get pizza.”
Saturday night my kids are home w the babysitter and my SO and our friends are out to dinner.
I believe most people on here are saying its the non-everyday / fine dining restaurants that make the difference. If you spend your Saturday night home with the kids eating pizza then you will have no difference in experience doing that in Naperville or Lake View. But if you go out with friends (like I do and pretty much everyone I know) then its much more difficult to do that in Naperville and your choices are limited. You are extrapolating your experience to everyone else and saying it makes no sense to pick LV over Naperville. That may be true for you but its not true for many. And if you do go out with the family every night you have more variety on Southport than Naperville within walking distance.
“If you and your family, city or suburb, are going to all the trendy and dynamic restaurants several times a week- more power to you. Hooray!”
I don’t believe anyone is saying they value city living because it allows them take their kids to fine dining restaurants multiple times a week. They are talking about going themselves.
Again – if your ideal Saturday night is a chill night at home watching a movie and ordering pizza then the suburbs are for you – there will be no difference in experience in the city. But if you want to try an awesome new restaurant with friends you will not have a comparable experience.
And that’s only dining. Want to see a play / concert / sporting event before dinner or during the week? Way more variety / convenience in the city vs burbs. But if you want to sit at home – nope – no difference.
“But it’s not hotter today so by your reasoning the border of Bucktown should revert to Armitage. ”
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Uh, no. The boundary never left Armitage so there’s no reversion. Borders aren’t fluid.
“Actually, Related Midwest (a real estate shill) is trying to change the definition of the community areas by carving out The 78. They must not know that cannot fly.”
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I agree.
We recently went to Elmhurst to meet some friends and they wanted to go to Victory Seafood, which was supposed to be fantastic. The place was mediocre at best with outrageous prices.
We basically could have eaten at Elizabeth for the same price which is light years better.
“We basically could have eaten at Elizabeth for the same price which is light years better.”
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Elizabeth (Lawrence and Western) is wonderful!
Apples and Oranges comparison though. Elizabeth is fruit and vegetables oriented, Victory is surf and turf.
The people who own Victory in Elmhurst just opened a place in River North at Ontario and Kingsbury.
There is a Shake Shack currently under construction at the Oakbook mall.
We had dinner tonight at A Toda Madre in Glen Ellyn. If it were in the city it would almost certainly be Bib Gourmand along with its sister restaurant Bien Trucha in Geneva.
Let’s get some market conditions from those actually in the trenches. How did your open houses/showings go today (in whatever neighborhood you were in)?
Maybe there something’s we can all agree on:
the rosemont TGIF potato skins are the best in a 100 mile radius
Just checked VERY preliminary September numbers and I’d say that Chicago sales (units) are going to be down 10 – 15% when the dust settles. I’ll post my update on the 8th or the 9th.
“Just checked VERY preliminary September numbers and I’d say that Chicago sales (units) are going to be down 10 – 15% when the dust settles. I’ll post my update on the 8th or the 9th.”
Yikes.
I knew it was slow, but didn’t think that much slower.
Redfin has seen a much higher number of price cuts this fall as well compared to a year ago. It’s like buyers suddenly balked.
People keep claiming this but there is absolutely no evidence that this is happening. The sale/list ratio is no different than it was last year.
“People keep claiming this but there is absolutely no evidence that this is happening. The sale/list ratio is no different than it was last year.”
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I assume that the sale/list ratio is on completed sales, so if houses haven’t sold, then the price cuts from the original listing price won’t show up in the ratio yet.
Also, if the list price is not the original price, but is the reduced price, then the sale/list ratio masks the price reductions. Is the ratio determined by original list price? Or by asking price at the time of sale.
That could explain why we have both lots of price cuts AND a stable sale/ask ratio.
Maybe sellers are overly optimistic in their initial asking price?
Yes, completed sales. And it’s available on last list price and original list price. I’m seeing no change in either. But I don’t think they can track back to previous cancelled listings. I did look at the number of cancelled listings not too long ago and it was no greater either.
It’s hard to believe that there could be price cuts that aren’t yet showing up in the ratio yet. Some of those properties have to be closing.
I’ve been talking to people about this, and there definitely is a widespread view that the market is turning or slow. But a lot of that is related to just volume not being high, which isn’t the same as places on the market not selling. For example, I was talking to a real estate lawyer today who said his volume is down, and attributed that to the market (but that wouldn’t mean places on the market weren’t selling fast, just that total sales are down). Same with what I’ve heard from the real estate agent side, frustration with total sales.
But I’m definitely getting the impression that people feel like the market is getting bad for sellers, and if everyone thinks it is, people will probably start acting accordingly.
I bought this spring and sold in the summer and during both periods, you’d see both places lingering on the market (because overpriced) and others getting snapped up immediately. But there definitely were places lingering.
I think inventory is down because prices, while up, are not up enough to allow people who are barely above water to sell their homes and move up the food chain.
So they sit tight, and current sales collapse. The prices a seller needs to move up can’t be justified, so buyers aren’t buying, and given the lack of income growth, they couldn’t buy if they wanted to.
The fraud that caused the housing bubble in the oughts really did a number on the markets.
But “buyers aren’t buying” isn’t true. Buyers are largely buying what’s available, and at good (high) prices, just flatter than in many other cities. And I’m not convinced that flat is bad (although I suspect part of it is taxes being so high, and that’s bad, if that’s holding down the market). You could argue that flat means people are sensing a bubble might be starting again and having been burned (or saw the results of before) are thinking twice — is that place REALLY worth that much, or should I maybe make a tradeoff? Or can I really afford it?
Prices are relatively flat and people cannot buy the next house on the ladder because property taxes have skyrocketed as a percentage of the monthly payment. Had property taxes increased at the national average, prices would be higher.
Not only increasing taxes, but increasing mortgage rates, are keeping prices flat. Something has to give because incomes are not keeping up. This makes the market more vulnerable to an eventual downturn as well. The rates might drop at some point but the taxes will be a perpetual anchor.
“But “buyers aren’t buying” isn’t true. Buyers are largely buying what’s available, and at good (high) prices, just flatter than in many other cities.”
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Then what’s your explanation for the price cuts showing on Redfin that was mentioned earlier?
It would be interesting to see if the price cuts are occurring in neighborhoods with the least home equity. Homeowners with the most home equity (https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/8/22/16167884/chicago-northwest-side-equity-mortgage-increase)can afford to price their houses right in the first place — they’ll have equity to move up or at least sideways after their sale. People with little equity would, it seems to me, want to roll the dice to try to afford their next house — they might get lucky and sell high. But let’s face it, the house doesn’t sell, and price cuts are needed. The dice roll to try to bootstrap equity didn’t pay off.
Given transaction costs, most people are basically underwater until prices have gone up about 20 percent or so from when they bought — ten percent to cover transaction costs in selling and ten percent to meet the new down payment needed for the next house (which has an increased price).
So if people have a higher equity cushion, they can afford to not have to try to be lucky in their sale. Has anybody seen an inverse correlation between neighborhood equity margins and price cuts?
” Then what’s your explanation for the price cuts showing on Redfin that was mentioned earlier?”
If I don’t see it in the data then it’s not happening. Redfin is probably talking about some thing they are seeing at the national level.
“Then what’s your explanation for the price cuts showing on Redfin that was mentioned earlier?”
Overly ambitious pricing and the market being unwilling to go up as much as some sellers think they should due to low inventory. That Chicago, unlike SF or even Seattle is not a geographically small city and has lots of cheap areas still, so buyers have leverage/options even when inventory is low (and great rental opportunities). That means people are super picky when asked to pay top of the market prices.
Like I said, the market was supposedly “sizzle” in the spring and early summer and I saw lots of support for that, places going immediately (even mine in later summer sold the first weekend it was on the market — yes, sure, I might have underpriced), but I also saw other places lingering, since they misjudged the price or that people would care that they were not updated. And I saw prices all over the place for similar seeming places.
“It would be interesting to see if the price cuts are occurring in neighborhoods with the least home equity.”
Dunno, but we’ve talked about price cuts in Southport which is a neighborhood I know well, and Southport is selling at over top of the bubble prices if they are at all updated and reasonable — places that aren’t selling are priced way over top of the bubble. My former neighbors had to paint their cabinets (they didn’t redo floors, which were pretty bad) and still sold above what they bought at at top of the bubble, although they didn’t get what they expected and so lowered price marginally (their place was largely not redone so very early 2000s and they redid the cabinets and lowered marginally and then sold quickly).
I found this post being reported by one industry publication as “sellers are dropping prices”. It says no such thing. And, in my opinion, it could just be that fewer people are underpricing their homes. I think it’s deplorable that 23% of homes sell above list price. https://www.redfin.com/blog/2018/09/the-share-of-homes-selling-above-list-price-just-dropped-below-2016-levels.html
“Dunno, but we’ve talked about price cuts in Southport which is a neighborhood I know well, and Southport is selling at over top of the bubble prices if they are at all updated and reasonable — places that aren’t selling are priced way over top of the bubble.”
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The fact that prices have recovered has little to do with how much equity you have. Remember, transaction costs in buying and selling real estate are huge. Prices not only have to “recover” or “exceed;” they have to exceed the original purchase price by a significant amount (circa ten percent) just to recover one’s original down payment after closing costs. Add to that the need for a greater down payment for the next house, and you have insufficient equity to move.
So people overprice, hoping they get lucky.
People have always overpriced. People very often assume their place is worth more than it actually is. I don’t see any evidence that that is happening more now than it was.
Again, the coverage of the market in the spring was that it was sizzling, many places were selling instantly (and sometimes above list), and there were articles about whether Chicago buyers should should be prepared to offer above list (my opinion: not in Chicago, no way). But even then I saw plenty of places that lingered until they dropped their prices, because they were being unrealistic.
One example I saw was a former 2-flat greystone in Lincoln Square that had been converted into a SFH. The place next door was listed for $1 m and sold in the $900s (during this same time period) and looked basically the same from outside. The owners of the other greystone priced in the mid $800s no doubt assuming that was reasonable given the place next door. It wasn’t — there were serious differences. After a month or so they dropped the price and then accepted an offer below that.
This might be the Redfin post that everyone is referencing: https://www.redfin.com/blog/2018/09/more-than-one-in-four-home-sellers-dropped-their-price-last-month.html
I find it odd that their metric has steadily risen. And it used to be so low???? One thing that everyone forgets also is that price drops are not just a function of the market but also where sellers start. If sellers get more optimistic and it’s not justified they are going to start out higher and then there will be more price drops.
At any rate…if there were more drops in Chicago than normal it would be showing up in the sale/ list ratio.
As I expected home sales tanked in September. But I still don’t think that qualifies as a weak market. Market times were still short and the sale/list ratio is the same as it was last year. http://www.chicagonow.com/getting-real/2018/10/chicago-real-estate-market-update-lowest-home-sales-in-6-years/
“As I expected home sales tanked in September. But I still don’t think that qualifies as a weak market.”
We have to see if a pattern develops. We’ve had weak months in the past and it didn’t lead to anything.
The thing that bothers me is that mortgage rates actually hadn’t spiked yet by the time these September buyers got around to closing. They would have had lower mortgage rates from a few months ago (most likely- as they would have locked them in.) So September doesn’t even reflect the 5% rates yet. That won’t hit until probably 2019 as most buyers right now have locks.
Then what happens to sales?
The market is filled with overpriced crap
anecdotally, there’s about a 50% premium to upgrade (some combo of sf/hood/finishes). It you like the hood your at, you’re probably better off reinvesting in the House.
Mortgage volume has gone off a cliff. Refinances are all but dead. Only refinances going on right now are divorces and cash outs. Lenders are laying off left and right. While we may not revert back to the days of mortgage lender implode blog, some are going to start failing soon. IIRC, 80% of Quicken loan’s volume was refinances…
The effect of higher rates on purchases will probably start showing up come January or so. Mortgage rates are typically locked 30 – 60 days prior to closing, so any data regarding closings really has a two month lag.
I suspect quite a few budgets will be blown for borrowers on the high end and people will be scaling back.
It is kind of feeling like 2008. The difference though is that the mortgage quality is far higher, so I’m not sure a market slow down would be as devastating as it was back then.
The difference between now and 2008 from an owner’s perspective is that things are still selling pretty quickly; I know my place did, and everything I’ve seen that was well-marketed and reasonably-priced has been. Obviously, that’s anecdotal, but I think Gary’s market time analysis backs that up.
I do think demand is soft in that buyers are picky for more expensive places (but that just makes sense to me given the prices, even if Chicago seems to be an exception there), and people seem to be willing to wait for something they like rather than bid up the places on the market or pick something they don’t like as much, but it doesn’t seem like 2008 for a seller.
I think part of the panic about the market getting bad is from people in the business, since for them low volume is bad, even if sales times are reasonable and prices aren’t dropping. I mentioned before that I’d specifically heard from an attorney who does a lot of residential RE closings that the market is really bad in that his volume is way off, but that is different from saying it’s bad for buyers. I have heard worries from a couple of RE agents I know too, but again I think they could be reacting to volume.
I’m not saying the market isn’t slowing, and clearly what happens with interest rates is a factor and I believe that in Chicago property taxes are a factor. But I’m not totally convinced things are getting all that bad for sellers. (I do think people maybe got excited about the past couple of years and assumed they could expect yearly significant jumps in prices again, and that I don’t see.)
With respect to why inventory is way down (lowest in 6 years), I’m curious for any thoughts on that. I’ll add, also, that I think people making sensible decisions to rent until they are really ready to buy or to stay in a place they already own longer term isn’t necessary a bad thing, it’s consistent with my idea that people should think of real estate as buying a place to live, not making an investment that will jump in value (and I think the bubble taught us that that’s risky and people more easily get nervous about whether prices are returning to that kind of era and back off).
“and I think the bubble taught us that that’s risky and people more easily get nervous about whether prices are returning to that kind of era and back off).”
You’ve got a whole generation of buyers that have only seen RE prices go up and haven’t experienced an economic recession or pull back. Why would they be any different?
Whole generation?
The bust was a major event. Prices have gone up since 2012, but even someone buying for the first time now (say, late 20s), should recall those events — crash + foreclosures + people being stuck and unable to sell — and second time buyers may even have been affected by them (or realize they got a place for lower cost because of them). People are much more aware that there could be a bubble or that prices can fall than they were in, say, 2005.
“With respect to why inventory is way down (lowest in 6 years), I’m curious for any thoughts on that.”
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Everything comes back to price. Real estate transactions are tremendously inefficient, led by the 5 percent or higher r.e. agent commissions (fyi, agent commissions in Scotland are one percent) and the transaction taxes. If the price hasn’t gone up enough to recoup one’s expenses in buying the property in the first instance, and selling it in the second, then the costs are going to come out of your equity.
So it’s not enough to “not be under water,” you have to be head and shoulders above water just to preserve your equity. Then you take your equity — good enough for 2012/13, let’s say — and compare it to today’s prices AND the transaction costs to buy at today’s prices (commissions and transfer taxes being a function of sales price), and realize you have nothing with which to buy a house.
So you sit. Presto — no inventory.
Millennials
I know that’s your view, johnc, but I don’t see why that would be a particular difference between this year and last.
“I know that’s your view, johnc, but I don’t see why that would be a particular difference between this year and last.”
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Volatility. When volumes go down, differences are exaggerated. Closings are an end result, and can get caught in the process traps. If you can’t afford the price increase and the costs of transaction due to limited equity, you can’t sell so you don’t buy.
Like I said before, that drives sellers to over price because they are hoping to get lucky and build equity with a buyer who overpays. You know — a buyer who pays Bucktown prices South of Armitage because some shill wanted to pump up the excitement on a house notwithstanding the bimbo’s (male or female) fiduciary duty to the buyer.
” If you can’t afford the price increase and the costs of transaction due to limited equity, you can’t sell so you don’t buy”
————
Let me head off some spluttering objections at the pass. Comparable properties are based on completed sales. Russ (another poster) has said that the only refis are divorces and cash outs. We can assume (don’t insult your intelligence)that some (in the low volume market) sales stem from divorces and other necessities (why did they have to refi?). Low volume leads to high volatility leads to misleading comparables.
Any questions? Especially about B-town going South of Armitage and how it fits into the whole shill game?
BTW I have to ask — Did anyone think the “gym trainer/property expert” was buff? Could that have affected one’s thinking?
“a buyer who pays Bucktown prices South of Armitage because some shill wanted to pump up the excitement on a house notwithstanding the bimbo’s (male or female) fiduciary duty to the buyer.”
I’ve got news for you. The most expensive homes are south of Armitage. And not because some shill told people to pay more.
“Closings are an end result, and can get caught in the process traps.”
What are you even saying? Lol. This is laughable.
We didn’t see the lowest sales in 6 years because of “process traps” whatever the hell that means.
“If you can’t afford the price increase and the costs of transaction due to limited equity, you can’t sell so you don’t buy.”
This has been true for the last 4 years as prices have climbed. What would suddenly change in September of this year?
“I’ve got news for you. The most expensive homes are south of Armitage. And not because some shill told people to pay more.”
That does not surprise me as median income is also currently higher south of Armitage, based on the stats I was looking at in the recent thread where that came up — about a River North property. This idea that WP is low rent BT (or, really, that the part of BT that is between Armitage and North is low rent BT) is clearly not true.
“So it’s not enough to “not be under water,” you have to be head and shoulders above water just to preserve your equity.”
Prices have been soaring for the last 5 years in the GreenZone. By your argument, inventory should be really high in the West Loop/Fulton Market where prices are up the most. Everyone should be listing there to cash in because they are clearly NOT underwater. Even if they just bought 6 months ago. It’s that hot.
But inventory isn’t sky high in the West Loop/Fulton Market either.
“that drives sellers to over price because they are hoping to get lucky and build equity with a buyer who overpays.”
If this is what was going on — lots of overpriced places vs the norm — we’d see longer times to transaction, and Gary’s stats indicate that that’s not happening, or at least hadn’t shown up through the stats we currently have.
There are places that are overpriced and on the market a long time, but I saw that early in the year too (when the market was perceived as hot), and I expect it’s almost always the case.
“You’ve got a whole generation of buyers that have only seen RE prices go up and haven’t experienced an economic recession or pull back.”
Oldest Millennials are 37 and soon to be 38. They certainly experienced the economic recession. Some of them probably owned the overpriced condos and lost them to foreclosure. Many probably lost their jobs they got out of college. I’m sure they remember.
It’s the 27 year old Millennials who didn’t live through it as an adult.
“Mortgage volume has gone off a cliff. Refinances are all but dead. Only refinances going on right now are divorces and cash outs. Lenders are laying off left and right. While we may not revert back to the days of mortgage lender implode blog, some are going to start failing soon. IIRC, 80% of Quicken loan’s volume was refinances…”
Thanks for the update Russ. A lot of the banks are getting rid of their mortgage units altogether.
“the 27 year old Millennials who didn’t live through it as an adult”
But even they were affected, as their parents couldn’t use a HELOC to pay for college. It’s the recent college grads (the young millennials) who would have very little real memory.
“his idea that WP is low rent BT (or, really, that the part of BT that is between Armitage and North is low rent BT) is clearly not true.”
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I never said that Wicker Park was low rent. I said that there have been times when Bucktown was the hotter neighborhood, and I have said that Bucktown ends at Armitage. Stop trying to set up a straw man argument.
As for low inventory, it’s all about prices. Offer a million dollars in Mayfair for a bungalow and you’ll have inventory galore. The fact of the matter is, however, that if your next down payment comes from your equity, and you have insufficient equity because of transaction costs, you can’t buy, so you don’t sell.
“I never said that Wicker Park was low rent.”
You said, disparagingly: “a buyer who pays Bucktown prices South of Armitage”
The intended implication was that it was a lower-cost area.
It’s not. The sub-area within the WP/BT area with the highest median income is between Armitage and North. No wonder the Bucktown Community Organization wants to claim all of it and WP wants to claim the southern half of it.
“You said, disparagingly: “a buyer who pays Bucktown prices South of Armitage””
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Which is in keeping that Bucktown has been hotter as a neighborhood than Wicker Park has been, so Bucktown prices would be higher, not that WP was low-rent.
Remember, r.e. agents get paid a percentage, so they have a motive to pump up prices by claiming boundaries of “hot” neighborhoods extend beyond reality (and I don’t mean r.e. agent virtual reality).
But as Gary pointed out, the most expensive homes are south of Armitage. The higher median income (by quite a bit) is south of Armitage.
So this idea that you need to use the term “Bucktown” to prop up a less desirable area does not make sense.
To the contrary, I suspect that businesses wanted that term long ago (and yes, the ’90s count as long ago) and thus the neighborhood shift. Now, it doesn’t matter what you call it, that area would be just as hot (hotter than north of Armitage), but Bucktown WANTS to claim it. That’s why Bucktown does claim the whole area, and probably also why Wicker Park claims it up to Bloomingdale still.
The notion that it’s RE agents pushing the label, that the general citizenry doesn’t see south of Armitage as BT, and, especially, that the result is fools paying overly high prices for south of Armitage is not born out by the numbers.
“but Bucktown WANTS to claim it.”
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And your authority for that statement is? — R.E. Agents need not apply.
In the 1980s and 1990s, B-town was “hotter” than Wicker Park, hence the r.e. agents pushed expanded boundaries. I was there when it was happening. Current home prices and incomes are irrelevant. You have to look at what conditions were like back when it was happening.
Sing and dance all you want. Bucktown ends at Armitage.
If a tree falls in the forest and only one person hears it did it really fall?
“If a tree falls in the forest and only one person hears it did it really fall?”
Is it even a tree?
Unless it was located north of Armitage, I would argue that it was not.
“Is it even a tree?
Unless it was located north of Armitage, I would argue that it was not.”
——————
Even shrubs make noise
“In the 1980s and 1990s, B-town was “hotter” than Wicker Park,”
Let’s be honest: Bucktown and Wicker Park both sucked in the 1980s and most of the 1990s. Gangs, gunshots, beautiful architecture that was neglected.
Bongo Room was the start of transforming it and that opened in 1993, underneath the El tracks on Damen (obviously in Wicker Park). In 1997 it moved over to Milwaukee.
Wicker Park has always seemed more artistic. It’s where they threw bricks through the windows of Starbucks when it first opened. Bucktown, not so much.
“Remember, r.e. agents get paid a percentage, so they have a motive to pump up prices by claiming boundaries of “hot” neighborhoods extend beyond reality”
This is just incorrect. A real estate agent gets paid by his client. If the client can pay $300,000, then that’s what they buy. It’s irrelevant if a real estate agent inflates prices in a neighborhood because the client is buying at the certain price point. Inflate the price point to $400,000, is the $300,000 buyer buying there? Of course not. An absurd argument.
The sellers have more incentive to claim they’re in a neighborhood they are not because of perceptions some buyers have that it may be more desirable. But the appraisal is still the appraisal.
This is why we see terms like “West Bucktown” when it’s clearly in “East Humboldt Park” or “Fulton Market” when it’s really just plain ole “West Loop” because a property will likely sell faster in a trendier or hotter neighborhood.
johnc, you act like real estate agents are these all powerful individuals who, by the magic of their job, can suddenly transform prices in a neighborhood. I’ve never seen any that talented in all my years covering Chicago real estate.
“The fact of the matter is, however, that if your next down payment comes from your equity, and you have insufficient equity because of transaction costs, you can’t buy, so you don’t sell.”
Insufficient equity in most of the GreenZone is simply not the problem if you’ve lived there 3+ years.
It’s actually very common to find cases where that is exactly the problem. This Lake View house essentially sold for the same price that it did in 2009: https://lucidrealty.com/homes-for-sale/Chicago-Lake-View/single-family-homes/1434-W-School-ST-60657/
“It’s actually very common to find cases where that is exactly the problem.”
I should have clarified that it’s mostly condos/townhouses that have seen solid appreciation. Single family homes? Not so much, especially the “luxury” ones since they overbuilt those. They are also now overbuilding some luxury 2/2s in those midrise buildings so I would expect a slowdown in price appreciation on those in the next few years too.
But I don’t think johnc is talking about the owner of a $1.5 million house not being able to list, and move, because he sells for $1.4 million 9 years later. That seller has plenty of equity, both from the original downpayment as well as what they have paid over the past 9 years. Equity is NOT prohibiting that person from selling and “moving up” as johnc portrays the problem.
That seller is NOT underwater. Let us hope.
Nah, not seeing many people unable to move because of lack of equity. At least not a local to local move. That may be the case if someone from Chicago was moving to, say, LA or NYC.
“Let’s be honest: Bucktown and Wicker Park both sucked in the 1980s and most of the 1990s. Gangs, gunshots, beautiful architecture that was neglected.’
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True, but if you go to the newspaper morgues and look at the real estate articles and listing, Bucktown was the hottest show in Chicago in the late 1980s and early 1990s.
“johnc, you act like real estate agents are these all powerful individuals who, by the magic of their job, can suddenly transform prices in a neighborhood. I’ve never seen any that talented in all my years covering Chicago real estate.”
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No, I don’t think of real estate agents as all powerful arbiters of what people buy. R.E. Agents are not, however, passive vessels of objective information, either. Whether it’s picking and choosing between alleged comparables to set a high asking price (buying the listing), or picking and choosing comparables to show your buyer that the price might be a stretch, but the neighborhood is “hot” and therefore the house is worth it, real estate agents control access to material information (the MLS listings) and manipulate that information (“I’ve done the analysis of the MLS listings, here’s your comparables, you won’t be overpaying if you offer $X.).
They also shade the truth (read — lie) about information (e.g., “Lincoln Park goes to Wellington, Bucktown goes South of Armitage” etc.). The comments about customers not relying on r.e. agents’ representations proves the point; It’s not enough that the customer has “other sources of information.” You breach your fiduciary duty by misrepresenting/stretching the truthe truth/lying in the first place. The customer has a right to rely on what you say and do. That’s what fiduciary duty is all about. It also means that you can’t engage in boot strapping.
last I checked, realtors(R) aren’t licensed fiduciaries
so I have no clue what the fuck you’re even talking about, as usual
“last I checked, realtors(R) aren’t licensed fiduciaries
so I have no clue what the fuck you’re even talking about, as usual”
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That’s on you. R.e. brokers have to be licensed. They are also held to be fiduciaries to their clients according to the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation.
Of course, if you want to contend that r.e. agents aren’t professionals . . .
“A real estate agent gets paid by his client. If the client can pay $300,000, then that’s what they buy.”
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Yup, and if the r.e. agent can pass off a $275k house as $300k, they that’s what he does.
New Theory: johnc’s ex is a realtor
Re: “They also shade the truth (read — lie) about information (e.g., “Lincoln Park goes to Wellington, Bucktown goes South of Armitage” etc.).”
The Wellington thing is from me, and I’m not aware of any RE agents specifically saying LP goes to Wellington. I said you’d see ads (these were typically for rentals) suggesting places were in LP that manifestly were not, and we’d laugh about it. If someone was interested in LP, you’d get shown places in southern Lakeview often, but that’s not the same thing as saying it was LP (people might say it’s pretty much the same or just as good, which is a matter of opinion — again, this is more on the rental side I’m thinking of, since I never tried to buy in LP, although I looked at a few places there).
When I sold my first place, it sold the first weekend, and I was surprised, and my broker said “there’s a shortage of 2/1s in LP in this price range” and I said it’s not LP, and he said “yes, but close enough if someone is looking in that general area.” But I don’t think he _represented_ it as being LP (it was 29XX N. ____).
When I looked before buying that place (way back in my 20s, when I was somewhat new to Chicago), I’d said I was mostly interested in LV and wanted to pay under $XXXK, and got shown places in Buena Park (which is Uptown) and Roscoe Village and Graceland (which is LV, but which I did not think of as such), as well as many places in LV and LP. I was NOT told that the places not in LV were in LV (I wasn’t even told the place in Graceland was LV). What I was told was that they were alternative areas that might give me more condo for my money.
I’ve never had a situation where a RE agent lied to me about a neighborhood.
And, since Bucktown is not a community area and has no officially set borders, and since the Bucktown Community Organization says Bucktown goes to North, it is impossible to claim that saying 1701 N. Damen is in Bucktown = a misstatement of fact.
______________
On other matters, Sabrina’s post above reminds me that in the mid-90s when I was brand new to Chicago, a friend from NYC came and visited me at my apt near Armitage and Clark, and had zero interest in going out around there, or anywhere I normally went. He said that based on what he’d heard in NY, Wicker Park was the cool place to go. So we did, although I no longer recall what specific places we went to.
JohnC, when representing sellers we’ve never encountered a buyer’s agent that tried to get a higher price.
” I’d said I was mostly interested in LV and wanted to pay under $XXXK, and got shown places in Buena Park (which is Uptown) and Roscoe Village and Graceland (which is LV, but which I did not think of as such), as well as many places in LV and LP. I was NOT told that the places not in LV were in LV”
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And if the r.e. agent says that it’s not in LV but an alternative, that’s fine. But you asked for LV, and I remember people saying in other posts that customers didn’t ask for neighborhoods. If you ask for LV and the agent shows you a place not in LV and doesn’t tell you it’s not in LV, though, that’s a misleading omission. Saying “I’ve got an alternative to LV to check out” is great.
As for Gary’s comment, I noticed it comes carefully worded. Gary, you set up a straw man argument. Did you ever, as a seller’s agent, encounter a buyer’s agent who tried to persuade the buyer to pay a higher price than the buyer wanted to pay, so that the buyer’s agent could make a sale?
You know that’s what I wrote of.
Oh, and BTW, never had any relationship at any time with a r. e. agent. I have my pride.
OT: my ass appeal got denied, I guess it’s on to board of review or whatev. Have you heard back yet, ponies?
That probably happens when the negotiation looks like it’s stalling. Before then there is no need for that. Once you get to the point where it’s stalling I can’t even imagine a realtor trying to close a $5000 gap with some lame argument like “Yeah, but it’s in Bucktown so it’s worth the extra $5000”.
“That probably happens when the negotiation looks like it’s stalling. Before then there is no need for that. Once you get to the point where it’s stalling I can’t even imagine a realtor trying to close a $5000 gap with some lame argument like “Yeah, but it’s in Bucktown so it’s worth the extra $5000″.”
———————–
We’ll take that as a “Yes.”
DZ, did you try it yourself or did you hire an attorney? For whatever reason it appears the attorneys have better results.
mine says “Appeal Work In Progress”
so no answer yet
“OT: my ass appeal got denied, I guess it’s on to board of review or whatev”
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Good luck. If mine’s denied I’ll bring up the fact that the assessors were improperly using Zillow to determine valuations and see if I can force the assessor to prove otherwise. twenty-five percent outlier rate is asinine. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/ct-met-cook-assessments-berrios-hand-checks-20180710-story.html
“The Wellington thing is from me, ….
I’ve never had a situation where a RE agent lied to me about a neighborhood.”
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You contradict yourself. The agent who told you Lincoln Park went to Wellington lied about the neighborhood. Full stop.
The fact that you didn’t fall for it doesn’t make it any less of a lie.
“If mine’s denied I’ll bring up the fact that the assessors were improperly using Zillow to determine valuations and see if I can force the assessor to prove otherwise.”
Maybe they think you’re in Bucktown where property values are sky high.
“see if I can force the assessor to prove otherwise”
haha. like that’s how the burden works.
You would have to go to court outside of the regular appeals process, and allege that the use of zillow, etc, was improper under the law. And then you’d lose on the Assessor’s motion to dismiss. Because there isn’t anything unlawful about using zillow. It’s not best practices, but the IL assessors’ handbook recognizes that ‘mass appraisal’ is inherently compromised.
“didn’t fall for it”
There’s no “it” to “fall”. Since is was south of Armitage.
Thar be dragunz!!
“haha. like that’s how the burden works.
You would have to go to court outside of the regular appeals process, and allege that the use of zillow, etc, was improper under the law. And then you’d lose on the Assessor’s motion to dismiss. Because there isn’t anything unlawful about using zillow.”
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You’re right, but if enough people make the assessor’s office look back enough, the assessor’s office might back down. Especially when Zillow specifically says it cannot be relied on. Couple that with the 25 percent “outlier” adjustment at Cook County, when the national average is 1 to 2 percent, and the assessor might fold.
Every once in a while a draw to an inside straight comes through. Don’t bet that way often, but now and again doesn’t hurt.
“There’s no “it” to “fall”. Since is was south of Armitage.”
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Last I checked, Wellington was North of Armitage.
I’d love to sue the assessor’s office for pain and suffering… LOL
“did you try it yourself or did you hire an attorney? For whatever reason it appears the attorneys have better results.”
Last time I started it myself, got denied, then got attorney and was fairly successful at board of review. (Is there a max of just two rounds? I don’t really remember.)
This time I started with the attorney and got teh same initial result. I’ve used a flat fee attorney. Really made out last time, but this time may not be nearly as good.
“I’d love to sue the assessor’s office for pain and suffering… LOL”
I will join any and all ass suits.
“And if the r.e. agent says that it’s not in LV but an alternative, that’s fine. But you asked for LV, and I remember people saying in other posts that customers didn’t ask for neighborhoods.”
Eh, I knew where LV was since I lived there. I wanted to live in the same general area I was and to see what was available. I was open to other areas (and actually ended up deciding to ditch ELV and go to the area around St Al’s). I didn’t want to spend more than $XXXK. I was much more focused on specific areas and the feel and what was around there and the walk to the L, etc., than the name of the neighborhood. I looked enough to see what the market was (including on my own — using the Reader and the Trib, olden days!).
I was never pressured to pay more than I said I wanted to, either, and my agent always took direction from me on what I was willing to pay (which has been the case subsequently too). In fact, I’ve never gotten any pressure from an agent I used to make a purchase at all. And I’ve always had the since that any agent I used wanted me to be happy because they wanted to be the person I chose to do a sale if I later sold (or if I was also selling).
“Is there a max of just two rounds?”
There is a third level of appeal also.
“Especially when Zillow specifically says it cannot be relied on.”
Why do they say that? So they can’t be held accountable, that is all.
And, in any case, the Ass office would say they used it as a reference, and did not “rely” on it. Which is a reasonable thing to do.
“You contradict yourself. The agent who told you Lincoln Park went to Wellington lied about the neighborhood. Full stop.
The fact that you didn’t fall for it doesn’t make it any less of a lie.”
But I did not say a RE agent told me that LP went to Wellington. Read my last post on it — that’s what I was talking about when I brought up Wellington.
“There is a third level of appeal also.”
There should be 9 levels as there are 9 Circles of Hell.
Potbelly’s and Noodles & Co?
If those are your only conception of what people eat in the suburbs, you’re misinformed. I live in Highland Park, and there’s a very good restaurant scene here. Ever been to Highwood?
I’m really tired of the theme here that just because people live in the suburbs they must be bland and have no taste.
“Liberal and anti-global warming” but fly in three times a year to see a show.
Typical. Reminds me of a comment on Facebook from an acquaintance of mine. He was decrying fossil fuel exploration as he flew on a plane back from France.
The far left and far right have no sense of irony.
Love the story about Wellington being LP. I grew up in that neighborhood. No way Wellington will ever be LP.