Market Conditions: Chicago New Construction Market Is Dead As A Door Nail
Tracy Cross & Associates is out with a report on new home sales in Chicago and the Chicagoland area in the third quarter.
While sales appear to be recovering in the suburbs, the city actually saw sales fall 42.5% from last year.
Without annualizing sales and adjusting for seasonality, developers sold 740 homes in the third quarter, up 8.2 percent from 684 sales a year earlier. Only 84 of those sales were in the city, where new-home sales dropped 42.5 percent from the same period last year.
Such an annual gain would be the first since 2005, but the recovery isn’t being felt everywhere. The housing bust all but stopped condominium development downtown, where many urbanites are choosing to rent instead of buy in a city with shiny new apartment towers and a still uncertain condo market.
“The former buyer now becomes the renter in the city,” said Mr. Cross, president of his Schaumburg-based consultancy.
Yet single-family sales have jumped 36 percent on a seasonally adjusted annualized basis over last year in the suburbs, where builders face less competition from the rental market. Sales of suburban condos and townhouses also rose 6 percent in the third quarter.
“People are tired of waiting around, whether buying a new home or downsizing, the buyers we’re serving are ready to move on with their lives,” said Brian Brunhofer, president of Deerfield-based Meritus Homes, which has sold five homes in northwest suburban Long Grove after opening a 20-home development there 90 days ago.
2012 is on track to see 3,221 new home sales, a 11.1% gain from 2011.
While that may sound great, developers sold 33,287 at the peak of the boom in 2005.
We’ve been chattering about the new construction rental high rises all year long.
Is this another sign of a change in how city dwellers view home ownership or would people be buying if there were new townhouses and single family homes actually for sale in the city?
Nearly every development I’ve seen in the city has been condos.
New home sales jump in burbs, sink in city [Crain’s Chicago Business, David Lee Matthews, October 30, 212]
Surely the financing has to be a part of the issue, with so many buildings in distress in terms of HOA delinquencies, that and the astronomical assessments. I also think many people are saving their cash for the (usually) inevitable move to the suburbs, because it’s not certain/likely that they’ll make anything back on a condo in 3-5 years like it used to be.
There is a ton of new SFH construction in my neighborhood – Ukranian Village and East Village. Noah Properties keeps knocking them out and selling them within 30 days. Big new development at Damen and Erie: http://www.chicagonow.com/getting-real/2012/10/ukranian-village-gonnella-baking-building-gives-way-for-new-homes/
And they’re not the only ones in that area. There are also the Smart Tech homes and a lot of others.
To me, this is all a big analysis fail without recognizing the differences in building activity. Builders, I expect, have focused their activity in the suburbs. Land is virtually free in a lot of the exurbs where they’re building, so you can churn out cookie cutter houses at $250k or under all day long. You aren’t seeing lots of SFHs built on spec in the city anymore. Lower sales numbers reflect both lower demand and lower supply. The data is interesting but some analysis and thinking is required – “new homes” are not widgets on a shelf.
There is a ton of new SFH construction in my neighborhood – Ukranian Village and East Village. Noah Properties keeps knocking them out and selling them within thirty days. Big new development at Damen and Erie: http://www.chicagonow.com/getting-real/2012/10/ukranian-village-gonnella-baking-building-gives-way-for-new-homes/
And they’re not the only ones in that area. There are also the Smart Tech homes and a lot of others.
Gary have you toured a Smart Tech home? I’ve always been curious about those.
“so you can churn out cookie cutter houses at $250k or under all day long.”
Are they really still building homes in the exurbs? That seems to be one of the hardest hit areas for foreclosures and short sales. I saw some new development near my house Kildeer/Deer Grove, but I wouldn’t call that exurbs. Lake county suburbs maybe, but not exurbs. I make it out to the exurbs every so often (collar county courthouses) and I haven’t seen much new building on my way to Will, McHenry or Kane County. A few years ago sure, but not so much mass development today. I see infill here and there in teh suburbs, Park Ridge especially, any lot around $200k on a side street is getting snapped up, even if its a 50′ lot, presumably for building. A few months ago somebody picked up a lot for $225,000 and wants to build a new home for under 8.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Park-Ridge/618-Cedar-St-60068/home/13649611
In my neighborhood, West Lakeview/North Center there is a ton of new SFH construction. I can think of 10 in the past six months within two blocks of me. All of them have been sold in under 30 days in the 1mm plus range.
Smart Tech Homes build quality is lacking
” a ton of new SFH construction. I can think of 10 in the past six months within two blocks of me. All of them have been sold in under 30 days in the 1mm plus range.”
“under 30 days” from completion, right?
My wife and I (two relatively young professionals) have basically decided to forego condos entirely and are focused on a townhome relatively close to the city. A lot of couples we know in similar situations who are committed to the city long-term have a similar outlook and are renting while saving for a big enough down payment to make toward such a move. None of the people I mentioned thinks it is practical to have such a goal and waste a significant portion of money on one of the luxury high rises they’re pushing in the loop or other areas.
You’ll be committed to city living long term until your kiddos outgrown the 2 bedroom townhome and you find out first hand how awful CPS is compared to suburban schools. I was committed to city living too but I’m no longer so naive.
This guy kevin sounds like an idiot. Clearly he should be saving to move out of the city, not to stay in the city. Older adults that live in the city are either retired and live in high rises, or they are beatniks with no responsibilities. Good luck, beatnik!
“you find out first hand how awful CPS is compared to suburban schools”
So, they’ll stay in the city until the ‘kiddos’ are in high school?
HD and ??-dude:
How are you two (assuming you are actually two) reading:
” a townhome relatively close to the city”
to mean a townhome within the city limits?
Most of the product on the market blows and buyers are more discerning. There are too many one and two bedrooms (many of which are too small to be practical even as a 2/2). Buyers are looking for larger 2 bedrooms with real living and dining room space. None of this 12 x 12 stuff calling it a great room when you can’t even fit a normal sized sofa and 6 person dining room table in the room. Combine that with uncertainty about being able to even get out of a place within five years, buying is not for short term buyers which is largerly who the existing condo inventory caters to.
As I’ve said, many of DINKs have just said screw it and are going to rent until they can swing a single family/townhome/larger condo in the city or are just going straight to the burbs when junior comes along. Pretty much every condo I’ve financed in the city this year has been a 3 bedroom or duplex. The smaller starter condo market is dead imho.
I’d bet a development with large 2/2s to 4/2s would do well. I don’t even think the units need to be decked out finish wise. Just solid construction with livable space at reasonable prices.
“How are you two (assuming you are actually two) reading:
” a townhome relatively close to the city”
to mean a townhome within the city limits?”
Because if it isn’t “Downtown” (aka Gold coast, Loop, River North, Lincoln Park, et al,) it might as well be the suburbs to some people.
yes, ‘the city’ is another euphemism for the green zone; and specifically, he said he’s ‘committed to city living’ and a townhouse in skokie, although ‘near the city’ is still the suburbs and most certainly not city living.
cps sucks in the VAST majority of areas, and private schools are an acceptable compromise for some, but most (not all, but most) private schools in chicago can’t compare to the quality of any north or northwestern suburb. This is an indisputable fact.
I too like the city, I spent half my life there, but the safety and education of my children are paramount to any abstract notion of city living and the ability to grab sushi at 2:00 am on halsted street etc.
“[We] have basically decided to forego condos entirely and are focused on a townhome relatively close to the city”
That’s sounds super awesome. Where?
“you find out first hand how awful CPS is compared to suburban schools. I was committed to city living too but I’m no longer so naive.”
Further to anon’s point, are you saying that most suburban elementary schools are that much better than the half-dozen or so CPS attendance-area-elems that are located in some of the more desirable hoods? I thought you had a toddler. I see the obvious value of the burbs for high school (and starting with elem school if one can’t live in a desirable hood), but do you not (or did you not) place any value on the benefits of the city to a younger kid?
That being said, there is new construction in some suburbs
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Kildeer/22349-N-Greenmeadow-Dr-60047/home/17594670
“and private schools are an acceptable compromise for some, but most (not all, but most) private schools in chicago can’t compare to the quality of any north or northwestern suburb”
Having recently toured one of the private schools, I would be very surprised if any suburban public school can compare.
On a semi-related note: folks in Chi need to stop complaining about prop taxes, and what such prop taxes might do to home prices. As of now, they’re a relative bargain, especially for families living in desirable hoods with elem age kids. Compare, say, taxes on the north shore to the nicer northside hoods.
Anonny, the problem is the vast majority of buyers aren’t willing to live in a small condo with a kid in elementary schoo, no matter how great certain schools may be. Buying a SF in Bell, Burley, or whatever the hot school district of the moment happens to be is out of reach for most mid 30s professionals. While there are a good number of high income young professionals, most don’t make enough unless they are a Biglaw, consulting, banking, sales exec type to swing the $750k+ for a decent single family in Greenzone areas with good elementary schools.
I reserve the right to complain about property taxes in Chicago. I don’t want to pay for Chicago Public Schools, which I did not use as a child and would never consider using if I had a child. It irks me that I have to pay for the children of people who have far more money than I have to go to school.
“the ability to grab sushi at 2:00 am on halsted street ”
You have exactly the same ability to do that now as you did in the 8(?) years you lived in OIP–you can drive there.
“the safety and education of my children are paramount”
Well, “paramount” up to an amount you and your wife are willing to spend. Still all a cost-benefit analysis.
“Having recently toured one of the private schools, I would be very surprised if any suburban public school can compare.”
To that one school perhaps. But the statement was about “most (not all, but most)” private schools. And private could reasonably, to my mind, include parochial schools.
“private could reasonably, to my mind, include parochial schools”
In Chicago, I think it is UNreasonable for “private” to be read to exclude “catholic”.
“In Chicago, I think it is UNreasonable for “private” to be read to exclude “catholic”.”
Or did nonny just want to talk about how nice his school is? Tell us more!
“I reserve the right to complain about property taxes in Chicago. I don’t want to pay for Chicago Public Schools, which I did not use as a child and would never consider using if I had a child. It irks me that I have to pay for the children of people who have far more money than I have to go to school.”
So you’re looking for that magical jennyland where schools are not funded by property taxes (or any other taxes that you might have to contribute to)? Or you just want to complain?
ding ding ding!
People with kids can pay for their education. They chose to have the kids…they should deal with paying for their education. I don’t understand why I should contribute to something I have no possibility of ever using.
“did nonny just want to talk about how nice his school is?”
Wait–I thought it was just a tour–did lil’nonny get in?!?!
“People with kids can pay for their education. They chose to have the kids”
Sounds awfully Victorian … I love it!
“I too like the city, I spent half my life there, but the safety and education of my children are paramount to any abstract notion of city living and the ability to grab sushi at 2:00 am on halsted street etc.”
When I lived in NY, I had a 24 hour Teriyaki Boy near my place. Let me just say from my experience if you are eating sushi at 2 in the morning, you aren’t really that concerned about the safety of your child because your odds of dying or becoming incapacitated (either of which would make your child less safe) are increased exponentially.
“Gary have you toured a Smart Tech home?”
I believe I have. Can’t remember the exact address but I remember being unimpressed. First, I have a bias against anything that has a trendy name. I couldn’t figure out what was so “smart” about it. Second, my impression was that the real feature was that they were building homes at a price point where there really isn’t much supply but they do that by making them smaller.
But all this discussion about neighborhoods and schools (which we have all the time) really raises the question about what direction CPS will go in. I see all these young families buying $800K homes in my neighborhood, which is not known for its schools so what is the plan? Private schools? I think at some point the schools turn the corner.
Abolishing the public school system would certainly be interesting. I wonder what would happen to the city if people no longer had to give up the dreams of their 20’s for their spawn’s education.
I had sushi from Teriyaki Boy in NYC many moons ago! It was up there in my top 3 worst cases of food poisoning. Lesson learned. I’ll never eat cheap sushi again after that experience.
“Wait–I thought it was just a tour–did lil’nonny get in?!?!”
No, no, just a tour. The first of several hoops.
“Wait–I thought it was just a tour–did lil’nonny get in?!?!”
My apologies, quite right, doesn’t sound like he’s in yet. Still, I’m sure it was a great tour, and fingers crossed…
“People are tired of waiting around, whether buying a new home or downsizing, the buyers we’re serving are ready to move on with their lives,” said Brian Brunhofer.
When a hofer talks people listen.
“the ability to grab sushi at 2:00 am on halsted street ”
How gay. Chicago is so far from the ocean it’s ridiculous. is there any fish used in fresh sushi that comes from the Great Lakes?
“People with kids can pay for their education. They chose to have the kids…they should deal with paying for their education.”
I thought jenny was against homeschoolers?
Helmet – in case you didn’t know, most commercially caught fish are frozen.
Especially that tasty tuna fish the japanese love – yup, flash frozen and flown to japan.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-3700644.html
‘… Ninety percent of them will go to Japan, which imports as much tuna as it can – any tuna, some half a million tons a year. Most of the tuna is blast frozen on board ships, which arrive in Japanese ports everyday.
They are stored in giant freezer rooms at a bone-chilling minus 75 degrees Fahrenheit. At any given time, there are over 60,000 tons of frozen tuna stockpiled in what some call Japan’s strategic reserve.
Freezing tuna at such low temperatures has transformed what was once a fresh delicacy into a commodity, with virtually no expiration date. ‘
By the way, your ‘how gay’ comment totally reminds of me of Joe Simpson, Jessica Simpson’s dad Denies it for years until the wive finds naked photos of him with a young male prostitute. yup.
” helmethofer (October 31, 2012, 12:47 pm)
“the ability to grab sushi at 2:00 am on halsted street ”
How gay. Chicago is so far from the ocean it’s ridiculous. is there any fish used in fresh sushi that comes from the Great Lakes?”
“People with kids can pay for their education. They chose to have the kids…they should deal with paying for their education. I don’t understand why I should contribute to something I have no possibility of ever using.”
If you and bob hook-up things may change 🙂
“By the way, your ‘how gay’ comment totally reminds of me of Joe Simpson, Jessica Simpson’s dad Denies it for years until the wive finds naked photos of him with a young male prostitute. yup.”
yup, fits old one-eyed helmet to a tee.
“Most of the tuna is blast frozen on board ships, which arrive in Japanese ports everyday.
They are stored in giant freezer rooms at a bone-chilling minus 75 degrees Fahrenheit. At any given time, there are over 60,000 tons of frozen tuna stockpiled in what some call Japan’s strategic reserve.”
Yes, most of this expensively proce$$ed fish goes to Japan where they pay $$$$ for it. Not to the idiots with mini-$ to spend out at 2 a.m. in the midwest at some sushi-crapbox. The stuff they eat is frozen, probably one-month old, and stretched as long as possible at the crapbox, until it sells.
“Yes, most of this expensively proce$$ed fish goes to Japan where they pay $$$$ for it. Not to the idiots with mini-$ to spend out at 2 a.m. in the midwest at some sushi-crapbox. The stuff they eat is frozen, probably one-month old, and stretched as long as possible at the crapbox, until it sells.”
You think there’s a lot of never frozen sushi being eaten in the US, at any price point?
Some fish is also aged for sushi. I’m sure teriyaki boy must have an aging room.
“your ‘how gay’ ….photos of him with a young male prostitute. yup.”
Don’t be so literal. ‘how gay’ is just an expression, basically the opposite of ‘how cool’. As in: Wow, how cool is that?! compared to: “Oh, man, that is so gay…”
“If you and bob hook-up things may change”
I think at least in principle Jenny is willing to pay for what she views as her fair share, while Bob just doesn’t want to pay for anything, whether it’s his responsibility or not, something Jenny should keep in mind. Jenny’s a libertarian while Bob’s a cheapskate. But maybe that will provide the frisson in the relationship.
Bob is gay and Jenny is barren, sounds like a winning combination
“Bob is gay and Jenny is barren, sounds like a winning combination”
Well, then maybe Bob and Helmet should hook-up
Real original…
bob is not gay. frustrated maybe, but that trait would be counter-indicative to gayness.
you think he’d be so angry if a quick walk to his neighborhood steam works was in his wheelhouse?
Jenny,
I have to disagree with you on public education, as it does benefit everyone. Just think about this: You and I are able to have this conversation because someone (who was most likely publicly educated) invented the Internet.
“People with kids can pay for their education. They chose to have the kids…they should deal with paying for their education. I don’t understand why I should contribute to something I have no possibility of ever using.”
“You and I are able to have this conversation because someone (who was most likely publicly educated) invented the Internet. ”
According to Wikipedia Al Gore attended the all-boys St. Albans School in Washington, D.C. from 1956 to 1965: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_gore#Early_life
“I have to disagree with you on public education, as it does benefit everyone. Just think about this: You and I are able to have this conversation because someone (who was most likely publicly educated) invented the Internet.”
People would still be “educated.” The parents would just have to contribute much more to the cost. As far as I’m concerned, the city shouldn’t charge childless people the portion of the property tax that goes to schools. People with kids can make up the difference then or deal with terrible schools.
Gary,
Al Gore didn’t invent the Internet, nor did he claim to. Bringing up that old canard is so 1996.
And I still disagree with you, Jenny. We all need to pay for an educated workforce, which benefits everyone, not just people with children.
Hopefullly people are still reading this thread. About education, did you see in the trib that the City/Walgreens is going to give $25 to CPS parents that get involved with their kid’s education? I’m glad we need to incentivise parents this way.
Thumbs down for CPS.
“People with kids can make up the difference then or deal with terrible schools.”
I totally agree and that’s how most of the world works in places without public education systems. Prior to that there was a system of apprenticeships for the trades. The church provided a lot of the educational system for the rest. This idea of a public education system with unionized workforces who bleed the population of landowners dry is getting really old and allows for the ascent of scumbags like Michael Madigan and other elected officials to keep all their power. I’d like to see CPS train more plumbers, welders, nurses, etc. Instead we get a high drop out rate and barely functional levels of literacy for teh billinos they spend.
“As far as I’m concerned, the city shouldn’t charge childless people the portion of the property tax that goes to schools.”
You pay for thousands of city services you will never use. Why target this one specifically?
As Fred said, I agree. I’ve never called the Fire Dept. Why should I pay for them to rescue people I don’t even know?
Taxes for education are part of the price we pay to live in a free society.
“An informed citizenry is the only true repository of the public will.” Thomas Jefferson
Public schools are the worst thing to ever happen to education in this country. Literacy rates were far higher when there were no public schools at all. All schools should be privatized, with tuition credits or vouchers for low-income folks.
“Hopefullly people are still reading this thread. About education, did you see in the trib that the City/Walgreens is going to give $25 to CPS parents that get involved with their kid’s education? I’m glad we need to incentivise parents this way.”
I saw that. I wonder what sorts of promises/threats were made by the government in order to induce Walgreens to take that action.
“invented the Internet”
Licklider (who came up with the concept) went to University City High School.
Ivan Sutherland and Bob Taylor, who ran with the concept, went to Scarsdale High School and some small town Texas HS, respectively.
Little harder to track down the HS’s of the other guys.
I’m not saying public education is in wonderful shape, and I’m not defending the teachers’ unions, bureaucracy or Illinois govt. I’m just saying that in concept, I support free public education for everyone.
“Literacy rates were far higher when there were no public schools at all.”
Hmm. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the above statement is categorically incorrect.
“Literacy rates were far higher when there were no public schools at all”
Um, what?!?!?!?!! Cite, please!!
Please note: The first “public” school in the US opened in 1820 (MA passed a law required public school for all in 1827). So, we need to see literacy rates (including women, slaves, etc–all adults living in the several states) for 1819 or earlier.
” I’m just saying that in concept, I support free public education for everyone”
That’s the thing. It’s not free. it has to be paid for and/or subsized somehow. Is there a better system than the one currently in place. Probably. Will it ever be discovered and implimented? Most likely not for a long time.
” Is there a better system than the one currently in place. Probably. ”
BLASPHEMY ! USA IS NO. 1! USA USA
Nattering nabob-ism is running rampant.
Kids learn very little in public schools, so our tax dollars don’t get us much. The whole idea that everyone should go to college is ridiculous. I don’t see why asking parents to pay their fair share for their child’s education, is asking too much.
Paying for public schools is different than paying for the police, fire department, parks, public hospitals, etc. There’s a chance anyone of us might use one of these things. I will never use a public school. The only impact they have on me is that I have to drive slowly near them.
“Al Gore didn’t invent the Internet, nor did he claim to. Bringing up that old canard is so 1996.”
Was just a joke, surely, and not a dreadful one at that. I do want to see evidence of whether algore ever attended a public school.
“You pay for thousands of city services you will never use. Why target this one specifically?”
I am fairly sure we will hear about them all, in due course. That said, cps has gotta be a major (the major?) portion of prop taxes, no? And one jenny is particularly sure she has no use for. I am a little curious where jenny thinks her (hypothetical and yes I know unlikely) kid would go. Are legacy prefs that significant at lab? If not lab, where else?
The problem with public education is that schools have become glorified day care centers. The unions prevent any kind of teacher accountability and innovation. The parents aren’t doing their jobs when school is not in session. Lawyers make it impossible to get rid of the bad students. Public schools essentially have to perform at the lowest common denominator.
The bad thing about public schools and lack of choice is they reflect the communities they serve hence why all the good schools are in relatiely wealthy areas. The lack of choice for those who can’t afford to move to better areas in a way traps them with inferior education options.
“Paying for public schools is different than paying for … public hospitals”
Why? I’m not ever–willingly–going to use a public hospital.
“Kids learn very little in public schools”
As far as painting with an over-broad brush, seems they learn about the same thing as they would at Lab.
“Kids learn very little in public schools, so our tax dollars don’t get us much.”
Your private education obviously didn’t teach you much if you believe that.
My kids both go to public schools (albeit not CPS) and they are learning a lot. I agree there is wasted time, but mostly I’m happy with the education they’re getting and most of the teachers are committed and caring.
Public education is like capitalism – it’s the worst system ever invented – except for all the other ones.
Okay geniuses, my thought experiment for you for today is:
Pretend you are building a new colony on mars or somewhere. You get to decide how the system of government, taxes, education, etc will work. What is your re-design?
“Public education is like capitalism – it’s the worst system ever invented – except for all the other ones.”
I disagree. I personally find manorialism to be the greatest economic/political system, that is, if you’re noble with a castle.
I’d go with a walled garden. I am the government. A member of my harem will educate my many offspring.
“Al Gore didn’t invent the Internet, nor did he claim to. Bringing up that old canard is so 1996.”
I was wondering if anyone was going to take my comment seriously. However, for the record the interview took place in 1999 so my comment could not have been “so 1996”. What he said was “During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet”. Now, I don’t really believe he believed he created the Internet but it was funny at the time and still is.
I find anon’s insights to be very interesting. Clearly public school education often works really well and often fails miserably. I understand that the difference is highly determined by the parents. What we have to do is stop expecting the government to solve all problems and stop imposing other agendas on the public school system so that they can focus on educating children. Surely everyone is entitled to a good education without regard to ability to pay but why does the government have to deliver it and why can’t people choose what school their kids go to?
Interestingly, Lab school teachers are unionized.
I also don’t think private schools are a panacea of high quality education. Parents are a far bigger influence than an elementary school. I think schools should help kids find their individual talents and think critically and creatively. You can’t really do that when there are 30+ kids in a class…or even 20 kids.
We can’t afford this type of education for all, so why not give up and lower the standards and let parents take the lead?
If I had kids, I would send them to a “Children’s School.” These are schools where kids take the lead on what they want to learn and if they want to learn.
“You can’t really do that when there are 30+ kids in a class…or even 20 kids.
We can’t afford this type of education for all, so why not give up and lower the standards and let parents take the lead?”
This is exactly what is currently happening. Those who can afford it don’t send their kids to the public babysitter, but pay for the smaller class sizes and individual attention of private schools.
“I have to disagree with you on public education, as it does benefit everyone. Just think about this: You and I are able to have this conversation because someone (who was most likely publicly educated) invented the Internet.”
Jenny,
I used to think the same thing, since I have no intention of having kids. But it’s actually in everyone’s interest for other people’s kids to be educated, since it would decrease their chances of their costing society (and me) at a later point in their life in the form of public dependency, crime, etc. It’s like owning a row house that is attached to another which catches on fire because the guy living their fell asleep smoking in bed. Even if we didn’t have a public fire department, it is in YOUR interest to help him put out the fire, although you can say, “Hey, I don’t smoke, and it’s his fault his house caught on fire, so why should I help him?” Because otherwise, your house is going to catch on fire as well! No, it’s not fair that you should have to aid someone who needs aid from others due to his irresponsible behavior, but what is the alternative? However, I would be open to the idea of people who have sufficient income paying MORE for taxes going to schooling if they have kids, and people who opt out of having kids getting to pay less. But in such a case, you would have even more of an exodus to the private schools, and public schools would become even more a repository of the “haveless”. Maybe there could be a fine line where this doesn’t happen. For instance, my health insurance is covered at work, but the people who have kids have to pay a good deal more for their co-pays than those of us don’t don’t, compared to, say, 20 years ago. I think this is only fair.
” jenny (October 31, 2012, 11:55 am)
People with kids can pay for their education. They chose to have the kids…they should deal with paying for their education. I don’t understand why I should contribute to something I have no possibility of ever using.”
Does anyone actually disagree with this statement? yes, in theory, everyone should pay for what they consume, and everyone should be wiser, more competent, and savvier than they are.
Unfortunately, Chicago is a real, not a theoretical, city, with real, not theoretical residents who bear real, not theoretical children, have real, not theoretical, incomes… and too often are really incompetent to boot.
I consider myself a Libertarian at heart, and reject the criticism that Libertarianism is defined by selfishness. At its best, I think it’s actually quite idealistic because it expects a high degree of personal responsibility from all people.
Unfortunately, the way the world “should” work is not how it does, and the extreme (all philosophy, no pragmatism) won’t end well.
As a non-parent, I don’t complain about paying for public schools for the same reason I don’t complain about paying for a police force: I’d rather live in a society where criminals have a counterweight and human beings learn to read and socialize. Ideally, no one would rob, rape, or kill, and no adult would produce a child without the means (mental or financial) to raise them to be a productive member of society. But they do, so what I “should” have to pay for is irrelevant.
Having said that, I am as irate as anyone that CPS seems to do a terrible job of this, and at significant cost. That’s not a theoretical beef; it’s a real one.
For anyone interested, NPR’s Planet Money recently produced a fun segment on why some billionaires are paying for preschool for kids whose families otherwise couldn’t afford it. The argument isn’t about rights, obligations, or political philosophy, but pragmatism, and it’s an interesting listen.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/10/19/163256866/episode-411-why-preschool-can-save-the-world
“We can’t afford this type of education for all, so why not give up and lower the standards and let parents take the lead?”
Although I suppose you could have compulsory schooling for children without providing taxpayer funded public education, there’s a good chance you would wreck a whole generation putting it to the test – no thanks.
Don’t feed the trolls!
“If I had kids, I would send them to a “Children’s School.” These are schools where kids take the lead on what they want to learn and if they want to learn”
Had I received this option in junior high I would have learned about bmx bikes, video games, basketball, nudie magazines and fireworks.
“Nattering nabob-ism is running rampant.”
and along with the “nattering nabobs of negativism,” don’t forget the “pusillanimous pussyfooters” and the “hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history.”
“Had I received this option in junior high I would have learned about bmx bikes, video games, basketball, nudie magazines and fireworks.”
Ha, so true.
-Libertarians have too much faith in humanity
-Democrats have no faith in humanity and believe the smart people of government can protect people
-Republicans have no faith in humanity and believe the government doesn’t employ any smart people
I see my friends with kids, who make far more than me, getting ready to send their kids to public school. It irritates me that I am contributing to their education when I make far less money. They could afford a private school, but are choosing public. Schools should charge sliding scale fees for those who send their kids to public school. The poorest of the poor can contribute only a small amount. However, the poorest of the poor, shouldn’t expect their kids to go to good schools. They should accept poorly performing schools with overcrowded classrooms, that are run at a minimal cost. The kids are going to grow up to be just like their parents the majority of the time and the ones who escape the life of poverty aren’t going to escape it because they went to a good school. They will escape it because they have the personality to do so….
I once researched who the 47% who aren’t paying federal income tax and found out that if I had kids, I wouldn’t have to pay a dime in federal income tax. However, since I don’t have kids, I have to pay….very irritating.
Jenny, how do you get up in the morning? That’s a really depressing world view you’ve got.
As the parent of kids in public schools, believe me, I can assert with some authority that there’s already a sliding scale – it’s called property taxes based on home value and PTA fundraising.
I am sick of reading the whinings of ‘all the (planning to remain barren) single ladies’ and others. The whole concept of being American to me is that regardless of what schmucks your parents might be, we give you a shot to become all you can be. There is no guarantee of success but we give you a shot. Unlike Europe and other places where who you are born to & where establishes a ceiling for your potential. We all benefit from the successes of those who do make something of their life. We all suffer the consequence when large segment of population does not see any possibility of making anything of their life. Quit yer bitchin’.
“I once researched who the 47% who aren’t paying federal income tax and found out that if I had kids, I wouldn’t have to pay a dime in federal income tax. However, since I don’t have kids, I have to pay….very irritating.”
So, get crackin. Plenty of kids out there to adopt.
“I once researched who the 47% who aren’t paying federal income tax and found out that if I had kids, I wouldn’t have to pay a dime in federal income tax. However, since I don’t have kids, I have to pay….very irritating.”
you think that the cost of kids would be less than whatever you pay in federal taxes now?
“you think that the cost of kids would be less than whatever you pay in federal taxes now?”
No, she’s just irritated that someone else gets something that she “pays for”.
I think Jenny should adopt a tortoise and get it a SSN so she can claim it as a dependant.
“So, get crackin. Plenty of kids out there to adopt.”
or start a bidding war between hd and D#2 for the opportunity to donate their genes
” Schools should charge sliding scale fees for those who send their kids to public school. The poorest of the poor can contribute only a small amount. ”
I think this part is a good suggestion. Why not have a publicly subsidized system + parental contributions on a sliding scale? Parents need to care more about their kids’ schools and people don’t value something that is free. Look at the way Providence St. Mel is run. All parents have to contribute SOMETHING. That school produces stellar results in a poor community. How do you figure they do that?
“I see my friends with kids, who make far more than me, getting ready to send their kids to public school. It irritates me that I am contributing to their education when I make far less money.”
I presume that your friends, the ones who make a lot more than you do and have kids, also live in larger, nicer homes and thus pay more in real estate taxes (after already paying more in federal and state taxes and, assuming they make over and you make under the cap, more in Social Sec., and likely already paying more in sales taxes due to their greater consumption, etc.)?
” Why not have a publicly subsidized system + parental contributions on a sliding scale?”
why stop there. Why not have a refund for childless children that pays out after retirement age and suppliments social security?
I think my wife would object rather strenuously to this idea.
“So, get crackin. Plenty of kids out there to adopt.”
or start a bidding war between hd and D#2 for the opportunity to donate their genes
I think my wife would object rather strenuously to this idea.
“or start a bidding war between hd and D#2 for the opportunity to donate their genes”
“I think Jenny should adopt a tortoise and get it a SSN so she can claim it as a dependant.”
She’d better do it soon so she can get in on the adoption tax credit, yet something else jenny pays for.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/10/29/should-the-adoption-tax-credit-be-renewed
“assuming they make over and you make under the cap”
If you’re going to attempt to be precise, don’t need to assume that they make over cap.
“Does anyone actually disagree with this statement? yes, in theory, everyone should pay for what they consume, and everyone should be wiser, more competent, and savvier than they are.”
This runs into a problem when it costs more to determine the user fees than the user fees could reasonably generate.
Let’s start with a basic govt product, sidewalks.
We’d have to charge people by what, footsteps? Adjusted for weight? What would it cost to actually measure this, much less bill and collect?
“We’d have to charge people by what, footsteps? Adjusted for weight? What would it cost to actually measure this, much less bill and collect?”
What about smokers who stand in one spot for awhile? Aren’t they using the sidewalk longer than other people? It really needs to be a function of surface area (bigger shoes use more sidewalk) and time multiplied by weight. A sensor in every shoe! Save money: hop on one leg to work!
And don’t forget to stop the meter while waiting for a walk signal. Not fair to get charged for stopping against your will!
Gary said: “….Parents need to care more about their kids’ schools and people don’t value something that is free. Look at the way Providence St. Mel is run. All parents have to contribute SOMETHING. That school produces stellar results in a poor community. How do you figure they do that?…”:
I am in awe of Providence St. Mel & its approach. But, like many parents, we moved from city to suburbs for the excellent high schools where, like everything in life, education isn’t free. My RE taxes rose from negligible to $1K/month which was a bargain when kids were in HS but we continue to pay long after our last graduation. But it is money well spent – the reputation of our schools is why there is strong demand for homes. And I don’t regret paying extra for an educational system that truly prepared our kids (and their peers) to become whatever they can become.
Yes, the right way to do things is so obvious until you actually have to do things. 🙂
“Why not have a refund for childless children [sic] that pays out after retirement age and suppliments social security?”
Um, that would have to be “replaces” for those childless people, since they did nothing to produce future payors of FICA taxes. Jenny will say this is okay, as she is already planning on getting nothing from SS, even tho the reality is that she will get ~85% of current scheduled benefits.
We can allow more immigration of highly skilled workers to make up for the lack of new kids being born. Then, we don’t have to pay for their education and they will pay into the system. It’s a win-win. I read recently that the number of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have become innovators in their fields is far larger than it would be by chance alone.
Where did you live in Chicago that you had “negligible property taxes”? I pay over $500 a month in Avondale, which is not generally referred to as the Wilmette of the NW side.
“My RE taxes rose from negligible to $1K/month which was a bargain when kids were in HS but we continue to pay long after our last graduation.”
“I read recently that the number of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have become innovators in their fields is far larger than it would be by chance alone”
Well, yes, but there seems to be a selection bias in that data set. Tell me, how did they control for that bias?
“Then, we don’t have to pay for their education and they will pay into the system. ”
And your plan is to what, export our unskilled homegrown children to developing countries as cheap labor? I’m sure Wall Street will find a way to commoditize that and we’ll all make a fortune.
Yes. There is definitely self selection bias, but what’s wrong with that? I like the idea of self selecting immigrants coming to the US.
“what’s wrong with that?”
Eliminates the validity of comparisons to “by chance alone”–for that to have any meaning, the immigrants would have to be chosen at random from around the world and dropped here. Bet that group wouldn’t be more likely to “become innovators” (wetf that means, too) than “by chance alone”.
Jenny,
Those parents you’re envious of who you say should send their kids to private schools probably can’t afford to.Have you checked private school tuition recently? The non-religious ones charge $15,000 a year and more. I’ve even seen some charging $30,000. With two kids, you’d have to be making at least $300 K to even consider it, and even then, combined tuition would be 1/3 of your take-home salary. Be realistic.
You know I think Jenny’s right why should I have to pay for things that I don’t use. I think we need to have more means testing. I think when a woman gets prego she and or family needs to provide an income and net worth statement to the government, if you fall below a minimum income level the fetus is aborted. And you know while we’re at it I dont like paying for people on welfare. I think after a 1 year period of being on the dole if you can’t get off then there should be death by hanging. And then there all those damn prisons that I never use. Get ride of them, commit a crime, death by firing squad. And the worst of the bunch are all the old people on social security. Retire at 65 you get 5 years of benefits max. If you can’t live off your savings after that the government ties a bolder to your mid section and dumps you in lake Michigan. Well I think I have only scratched the surface of this issue.
” I think we need to have more means testing.”
More means testing with regard to population sure. Less means testing with regard to eliminating safety nets and tax code rules that heavily use immoral means testing via income criterion for qualifying.
“But, like many parents, we moved from city to suburbs for the excellent high schools where,”
Where you the typical SWPL automaton who voted D party lines while living in the city in your “swinging” 20s and now votes R in the burbs?
I see my friends with kids, who make far more than me, getting ready to send their kids to public school.
According to this sentence, your friends’ kids are making far more than you. And they’re not even in school yet. How are pre-schoolers out-earning you?
“And your plan is to what, export our unskilled homegrown children to developing countries as cheap labor?”
Madison tried it. Yet none of them wanted to go back to their ancestral homeland, if you can imagine that. Yeah they know they have it pretty good in Englewood, Garfield Park (both East & West) vs. the alternative, and they know it. Just don’t let the white liberals find this fact out.
“Where you the typical SWPL automaton who voted D party lines while living in the city in your “swinging” 20s and now votes R in the burbs?”
Lemmings?
Bob you ignorant obnoxious dufus you. Who anyone votes for is none of your business (you remind me of that guy telling worker at EBC to get with the program and support Mitt). I’m proud to be a registered Dem & an independent thinker. I voted already for 4 more years (I feel your agony ya loser); for Dem congressional candidate (I would never empower your fellow fratboys Boehner and Cantor) & for Republican state & a mix on Lake county candidates. Go f your self since I don’t believe there is a woman sorry enough to participate with you.
I’d gladly vote for Republicans in Chicago and Cook County if they stood for good government.
“I’d gladly vote for Republicans in Chicago and Cook County if they stood for good government”
What Ward do you live in that you regularly get *any* Republican running for a Chicago (as opposed to Cook County) office?
“What Ward do you live in …”
Right, that’s what I’m saying. I’ve lived in several different wards, and at election time I often wonder why the GOP hasn’t found some squeaky clean young comer who can appeal to voters who are disgusted with the crook/drug addict/gangsta moll/slackjawed heir who holds the seat. Cut the usual culture war crap and small-government ass-hattery and find a handful of legit goo-goos. Funnel them some funds. See if you can take some seats on City Council, if for no other reason than to fuck with the Democratic machine.
I know, good gov is not in modern Repubs’ nature, but as a kind of meta-ratfucking scheme it could be fun for them.
Bob thinks Emanuel’s “girlfriend” would protect taxpayers’ interests better at ISFA than Ryan’s.
He don’t know Wahm vewy well, do he?