Market Conditions: Downtown Apartment Rents Near 2007 High
Crain’s recently reported on downtown Class A apartment rents, which were up again in the first quarter of 2011 and are nearing 2007 peak pricing.
“We’re going to see good rent increases for the next two years, and then, when the next wave of supply hits, it will taper back,” says Ron DeVries, vice-president of Appraisal Research Counselors, a Chicago-based consulting firm that tracks the downtown housing market.
Net effective rents at top-tier downtown apartment buildings rose to $2.29 a square foot in the first quarter, up 2.7% from the fourth quarter and 6.0% from a year earlier, according to Appraisal Research. Mr. DeVries predicts that net effective rents, which include concessions such as free rent, will rise 7% at Class A buildings this year.
The Class A occupancy rate, meanwhile, rose to 93.9% in the first quarter, up from 93.6% in both the fourth quarter and a year earlier. While the occupancy rate remains well below its pre-recession peak of 97.5% in 2006, effective rents are nearing their 2007 high of $2.35 a square foot.
Demand for downtown apartments is red hot because no one wants to buy condos.
“There’s still no pressure to act,” Mr. DeVries says. “When people feel prices are going up, they feel the need to buy something so they don’t miss out.”
Demand for apartments typically depends on the job market, which remains weak. But the unemployment rate for people in their mid- to late 20s — a key demographic for downtown landlords — is much lower than that for the population as a whole, one reason the market is so strong, Mr. DeVries says.
In one key indicator of demand, downtown Chicago now has 5,226 more renters than it did in first-quarter 2008, a 35% increase, according to Appraisal Research.
There are several new high rises that are already under construction, including the first new rental building in Old Town that I can even remember (maybe in like 30 years) and a few more proposed. Developers can’t build apartment buildings fast enough.
“It’s amazing that spigot turned on that fast,” Mr. Stern says. “So we do have some concern over the new construction.”
But Mr. DeVries doubts that downtown landlords will face a glut a couple years from now. Appraisal Research projects that developers will complete about 2,200 units in 2013.
“I think the (rent) increases will slow down,” he says, “but I don’t think we’ll be in an oversupply situation.”
Will there be a glut of apartments in a few years or will they simply be converted into condos, once the condo market bottoms and starts to recover?
Downtown apartment rents approach 2007 high [Crain’s Chicago Business, Alby Gallun, May 16, 2011]
Generation X and Y want new with amenities and if my family is indicative share the cost by living several to a unit to make it possible until they have better jobs (and they do seem to be working!) They like these buildings because they do not also need gym memberships, etc and are generally close to work (although they are not yet ready to give up their cars.) Baby Boomers changed/drove the market and so are they. Hard to imagine that we don’t have enough units available already but this particular population has specifics. We shall see about rent competition when this “mini building boom” closes. Banks seem to have money again too. All said: my rental in-town has gone up less than 5% in 6 years in the GC.
One month ago they also ran this story on how the cost of renting in Chicago is at a 10 year high relative to buying and for the first time in that period buying is cheaper: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20110416/ISSUE01/304169975
This article is yet another example of how nobody knows wtf is going on. Just like this site, you have people with polar opposite views using data to support their predictions. You have bulls and you have bears – but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle (for both rentals and home sales)
“This article is yet another example of how nobody knows wtf is going on”
“the truth is probably somewhere in the middle (for both rentals and home sales)”
Who are you and what did you do with our Clio?
“There’s still no pressure to act,” Mr. DeVries says. “When people feel prices are going up, they feel the need to buy something so they don’t miss out.”
this is bullish for home prices. buying is so out of favor right now. “you want to buy when everyone else is selling…”
““you want to buy when everyone else is selling…””
Unless of course everyone is selling because it’s going to zero like Pets.com.
Just curious who funds the appraisal research counselors. Anyone have any idea?
“One month ago they also ran this story on how the cost of renting in Chicago is at a 10 year high relative to buying and for the first time in that period buying is cheaper”
As a long time renter and someone who has teppidly watched housing prices for the last few years, it has been a wild swing, especially the last 6 months with prices tumbling and rents holding or creeping up. Buying certainly isn’t cheaper across the board, but another 6-12 months like the previous and it will be.
I think there’s really a dual market out there for rentals. All these stories about skyrocketing rent are really limited to the large managed buildings. I don’t see any evidence that individual owners with anywhere from one condo to a few 3 flats are raising rents.
“Unless of course everyone is selling because it’s going to zero like Pets.com.”
perfect analogy. pets.com never earned anything, unless you call a few hundred thousand dollars “earnings.” obviously an asset with a real and increasing revenue stream (rent) is worth “zero.”
I think you know the answer to that one, Dave M.
I rent in a Class A building in River North that is well known to this site.
When I moved here in mid-2006 my rent was $2.38/sf. I’ve since negotiated down the rent and moved to a larger condo in the building.
Today my rent is $2.01/sf.
So about a -3% per annum decline vs inflation of what? Lots of supply, lots of suburban dentists looking to rent their places. I’m feeling no pressure to buy.
Guess I just lucked out then… I’m renting a newer (3 year-old) 825 sq. ft. condo from an individual owner, downtown, payed $1650 last year, just renewed for another year at $1650. Includes gas/heat, water, cable, internet… I feel like it’s a pretty decent value.
“you want to buy when everyone else is selling…”
Agreed. But, very low sale activity and a very large shadow inventory indicate to me that all those who want to sell are, in fact, not currently selling. Patience.
“pets.com never earned anything”
I used to get, delivered to me by UPS, 40 lb bags of Eukanuba dog food for $6.
Oh how I miss them.
OK – be logical people. You can’t have a sustained market that is bad for sellers AND renters. One group is going to get screwed. In the past 3-5 years, it has been sellers – but for the next 5 years it is going to be the renters. They ARE going to be paying a premium (as they should) because they are taking less risk and putting down no significant money. Also, as all of you point out on here ALL THE FUCKING TIME – nobody has money for a down payment. That means they are all going to be renters which means rents will rise. It really doesn’t take a Harvard or Stanford education to realize this basic concept.
“OK – be logical people. You can’t have a sustained market that is bad for sellers AND renters.”
It’s not just the demand side that is a problem.
“The Class A occupancy rate, meanwhile, rose to 93.9% in the first quarter, up from 93.6% in both the fourth quarter and a year earlier. While the occupancy rate remains well below its pre-recession peak of 97.5% in 2006”
I bought in 2009 with 20% down and am paying well under the rental rate for my unit to the mortgage/taxes and assessment (around 10%+ difference). It feels good!
It’s plain and simple data manipulation. If there’s really this much supply, rents are not at 2006-2007 levels for class A. Maybe you have to factor in condo rentals to the supply equation too?
wait everyone who rents on this site have said their rents have either decreased and one said it went up $25 bucks.
i dont know who to believe now
“They ARE going to be paying a premium (as they should) because they are taking less risk”
Not true. They are taking a lot of risk. Not exactly equivalent risk, but similar to it.
“wait everyone who rents on this site have said their rents have either decreased and one said it went up $25 bucks.”
Yeah, I had the same thought but the data is the data. Let’s face it…the people on this site constitute some kind of biased sample. I’m not saying what kind of bias…
well thats good because i sure as hell won’t ever be able to sell my place, guess if rents go up 10% a year I might magically walk into owning an investment property
/eyeroll
“wait everyone who rents on this site have said their rents have either decreased and one said it went up $25 bucks.
i dont know who to believe now”
rents seem pretty stagnant to me, as mentioned above, some of the managed rental buildings seem to be increasing albeit slightly, while on the other hand, deals are still to be found from desperate condo owners. All that said with the cost to own continuing to drop pretty hard, I don’t see why renting won’t become in the more expensive option in some hoods before too long.
Area rents and incomes are the fundamentals that determine selling price. Looks like Streeterville prices are well-supported, which is why that area has not corrected as other areas in the city have.
Our rent hasn’t gone up either, and if you count the free month he gave us to re-sign last year you could say it went down. He was offering a monthly discount to re-sign this year too but we’re buying instead and will save 40% on what we pay him, even after taxes and HOA. Actually the highest rent we’ve ever paid was in 2007 and it was the smallest place with the least amenities.
another case where things are more complicated than the data suggests.
many landlords place a value – however intangible – on tenants they can trust, who don’t whine about light bulbs burning out, pay rent on time, etc. and they try to keep these folks, due to the hassle of finding new tenants.
so while they COULD be charging more rent, it isn’t always worth the extra hassle/risk of the unknown with a new tenant. poll your friends and you’ll likely find many stories of “they were going to raise the rent, I said I’d have to move if they did, and they agreed to keep it the same.”
I call BS on this one, as I have before. Several of the large downtown buildings are still offering One Month Free and other concessions. You do not offer concessions when there is high demand.
The rental market has improved somewhat, but by no means is it “red hot.” Crain’s is spinning a narrative.
“Unless of course everyone is selling because it’s going to zero like Pets.com.”–Thats what makes it ballsy to buy today. Prices are flat, but seem to have some downward pressure. It is impossible to gauge the extent of the leftward demand shift, and anyone who buys now has to be really comfortable with the fact that there maybe another 10-20% leg down over the next 5 years. I’d rather rent than over pay by 100K…
“Yeah, I had the same thought but the data is the data. Let’s face it…the people on this site constitute some kind of biased sample. I’m not saying what kind of bias…”
That’s pretty simple, anyone who is reading a site like this is likely to be a more informed person in general, so is a person who will likely be a smarter renter;
As opposed to the uninformed renters who will take the path of least resistance, will end up being taken advantage of by one of those ‘apartment locator’ scammers, ect. If someone is willing to pay higher-than-market price for a crappy apartment, there will be someone out there willing to rent them a crappy apartment for higher-than-market price.
I think that’s your sample bias right there.
“but the data is the data”
It sure is. Quotes from the article:
“Demand for apartments is soaring amid a tight residential mortgage market, which has forced many would-be buyers to rent instead.”
Wouldn’t that show up in the occupancy rate?
“The Class A occupancy rate, meanwhile, rose to 93.9% in the first quarter, up from 93.6% in both the fourth quarter and a year earlier. While the occupancy rate remains well below its pre-recession peak of 97.5% in 2006?
No, it doesn’t appear to be. Demand must be soaring by some other definition.
“In one key indicator of demand, downtown Chicago now has 5,226 more renters than it did in first-quarter 2008, a 35% increase, according to Appraisal Research.”
I see, the soaring demand is represented in the absorption of new apartment units.
“Demand has been so strong that downtown landlords have been able to hike rents even as developers have added 5,800 apartments to the market in the past three years.”
Wait a sec, how is demand soaring when 3-year absorption (5226/5800 = 90.1%) is lower than market vacancy (93.9%)? It appears that new supply is already dragging down occupancy levels.
“And that figure doesn’t include thousands of unsold condos that have been put up for rent, increasing the supply further.”
That is correct, there have been many new condo rentals in the past 3 years, and likely just as many in the previous 3. Of course, the article is not about these rental units.
“Though the last building boom is over — fewer than 1,000 apartments will hit the market this year — developers are getting busy again.”
Let’s see, we absorbed 1,742 new units (5,226/3) over the past 3 years, with 574 left to be absorbed. Fewer than 1,000 new to be added this year, so if absorption remains the same there will be minimal impact on the occupancy rate.
“At least 19 projects encompassing nearly 7,400 units are in the works, with three under way, according to Appraisal Research.”
Oh, my dear. Nothing to see here.
“But Mr. DeVries doubts that downtown landlords will face a glut a couple years from now. Appraisal Research projects that developers will complete about 2,200 units in 2013.”
I guess that’s settled, then.
“but the data is the data”
It sure is. Quotes from the article:
“Demand for apartments is soaring amid a tight residential mortgage market, which has forced many would-be buyers to rent instead.”
Wouldn’t that show up in the occupancy rate?
“The Class A occupancy rate, meanwhile, rose to 93.9% in the first quarter, up from 93.6% in both the fourth quarter and a year earlier. While the occupancy rate remains well below its pre-recession peak of 97.5% in 2006?
No, it doesn’t appear to be. Demand must be soaring by some other definition.
“In one key indicator of demand, downtown Chicago now has 5,226 more renters than it did in first-quarter 2008, a 35% increase, according to Appraisal Research.”
I see, the soaring demand is represented in the absorption of new apartment units.
“Demand has been so strong that downtown landlords have been able to hike rents even as developers have added 5,800 apartments to the market in the past three years.”
Wait a sec, how is demand soaring when 3-year absorption (5226/5800 = 90.1%) is lower than market vacancy (93.9%)? It appears that new supply is already dragging down occupancy levels.
“And that figure doesn’t include thousands of unsold condos that have been put up for rent, increasing the supply further.”
That is correct, there have been many new condo rentals in the past 3 years, and likely just as many in the previous 3. Of course, the article is not about these rental units.
“Though the last building boom is over — fewer than 1,000 apartments will hit the market this year — developers are getting busy again.”
Let’s see, we absorbed 1,742 new units (5,226/3) over the past 3 years, with 574 left to be absorbed. Fewer than 1,000 new to be added this year, so if absorption remains the same there will be minimal impact on the occupancy rate.
“At least 19 projects encompassing nearly 7,400 units are in the works, with three under way, according to Appraisal Research.”
Oh, my dear. Nothing to see here.
“But Mr. DeVries doubts that downtown landlords will face a glut a couple years from now. Appraisal Research projects that developers will complete about 2,200 units in 2013.”
I guess that’s settled, then.
Rents do not scale by square footage. In fact, most 1Brs are more expensive than 2Brs in terms of price per square foot.
“When I moved here in mid-2006 my rent was $2.38/sf. I’ve since negotiated down the rent and moved to a larger condo in the building.”
““At least 19 projects encompassing nearly 7,400 units are in the works, with three under way, according to Appraisal Research.”
Oh, my dear. Nothing to see here.”
Have to do something with the money win the government screws savers (real interest rates). So it makes sense that large pools of cash with no alternative start blindly building buildings.
G – I am not being mean – but do you have a job? and if not, why not use your time more productively? It seems you have many resources and a lot of time.
I thought the same when HD asked about PITI folks are paying. All my friends in Chicago are paying over 3K PITI (often even much more) and more than 2300$ for rent, yet on CC everyone is below 2K?!
“Yeah, I had the same thought but the data is the data. Let’s face it…the people on this site constitute some kind of biased sample. I’m not saying what kind of bias…”
yes, clio, you can have a housing market that is both good for buyers and renters. it’s called a shift in supply.
“Rents do not scale by square footage.”
Yet ARC discusses rental rates across unit sizes in price psf. Hmm.
“yet on CC everyone is below 2K”
Not everyone. Some pay about that just in T+I, while being mortgage free. I’m not in that latter camp.
“It seems you have many resources and a lot of time.”
clio, your conclusion is that I don’t have a job? Should I be surprised that someone who talks about themselves so much doesn’t listen very well? What I do on CC is child’s play. It is recreation for me. I enjoy pointing out the frauds here.
“my friends in Chicago” “yet on CC everyone (who responded) is below 2K?!”
moomoo, you think those groups don’t constitute “some kind of biased sample?”
“Not everyone. Some pay about that just in T+I, while being mortgage free. I’m not in that latter camp.”
Pity turns to tea. Very regal.
“Pity turns to tea”
?? Never heard it, can’t find it.
Well anon, they have to somehow factor in the size of the units for sake of comparison. What I was trying to say is that if one up sizes (in terms of BRs and sqf) it is natural for the price per sqf to go down while of course the total mount paid has soared. For instance, average 1BR in my building rents around $2/sf vs 2BR which is at $1.76/sf. River North Lurker’s data without putting it in the context is misleading.
Sure that is a fair point too, but the bias is that they all rent in GZ in pretty nice buildings, or own in nice areas as well. I just found it interesting that with exception of one person everyone was below 2K.
“moomoo, you think those groups don’t constitute “some kind of biased sample?””
PITI (as in what a) to TI as in afternoon.
“they have to somehow factor in the size of the units for sake of comparison”
ONe would think so, but I’m not certain that they do. Someone here *will* be able to confirm.
“PITI (as in what a) to TI as in afternoon.”
Jeez. Big whiff by me. thx.
I can’t believe anon missed that one. Very nice, Jason. I’ll be stealing it…
“they all rent in GZ in pretty nice buildings, or own in nice areas as well”
You base that on what? Most didn’t disclose where they live. May be a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption.
“I just found it interesting that with exception of one person everyone was below 2K.”
As G noted, those who posted. clio has *two* homes he pays more than that for (assuming even 25% LTV mortgages). I pay more than $2k. I am certain a number of other regular(-ish) posters do, too, but don’t want to name my speculation.
There is some underlying secret conversation going on that I am not understanding here……
I am talking about my friends. I have been to their homes you know : )
“they all rent in GZ in pretty nice buildings, or own in nice areas as well”
good friends of mine is looking for a place in the Old Town Traingle area and the lincoln park area just to the north of that. They have two kids and are not comfrtable buying at this point because of job reasons. They are looking for a 3 bedroom and are willing to spend up to $4000.
I thought that for that kind of money they could find a great place. According to him, the places in the area they have looked at are either small or not that nice and that selection (for the type of place they were looking for) was limited.
I am no expert, but this surprised me. My friend, though, is a smart guy and keeps himself pretty well informed on the real estate market in Chicago, so I have no reason to think that this is not correct (at least from his persective).
The article was about Downtown Class A apartments. I don’t sense that this very narrow sample can be generalized to trends in the Green Zone, LV, or the city as a whole. It’s nice to see any positive data which may signal a bottom forming, but I’d rather look at sales activity net of “stimulus influence” to sniff emerging trends.
and G if you call me “moo moo”, I will call you “G string.” I think that is fair : )
“I am talking about my friends. I have been to their homes you know : )”
Ah. Then, knowing that some of the CC under $2k/mo cohort do not live in the same buildings/neighborhoods, why are you surprised at the difference? There is a *TON* of very cheap housing in metro Chicago.
And I’m given to understand that a particular Uptown building with a lot of studios is *very* popular with the cc corwd.
ok miu… I’ll help balance things out a bit on CC and admit to a PITI over 2k, but in cruzieros.
“admit to a PITI over 2k, but in cruzieros.”
2 things: Is that less or more than brunch for four this week? Does that include the guards with automatic weapons, or not?
and until you calve I think G should be able to call you moo moo. As for calling him G string, please don’t! Very funny, but a very bad visual.
I’m going to guess that the selection bias here is because of ‘most’ Ccers being younger than the overall citywide demographics. ‘Most’ younger people don’t have as much money to waste on a 2k+ mortgage as a more established professional/blue collar worker, but also have more time to waste finding a good deal on a rental unit.
Well Ze, for all you know G might be a tall blonde bombshell : ) It is the web after all.
Sonies, I thought most folks here were in their late thirties or early forties. Isn’t that the age most American’s are married with kids?
“I thought the same when HD asked about PITI folks are paying. All my friends in Chicago are paying over 3K PITI (often even much more) and more than 2300$ for rent, yet on CC everyone is below 2K?! ”
yes and how many that are paying over 3k are leveraged up to their eyeballs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0HX4a5P8eE
My taxes are close to 2k / month. But that is a drop in the bucket for the school services received for 3-4 kids (which seems par for the course around here).
I am not a fan of private schools in the suburbs but here is your best alternative to public school. Same or higher in Chicago.
http://www.nscds.org/podium/default.aspx?t=124089
And it isn’t really tax deductible like RE taxes are, sort of depending on AMT etc.
miumiu – I highly doubt that is the median age here
PITI over 3k is nothing. Apparently you have to pay $7,300 to rent a newer SFH in a good but not great neighborhood where the condos are virtually worthless. That makes PITI of 3k+ seem downright cheap.
I don’t envy the suckers that pay this rent. Try to find a quality 4br+ SFH for less than 5k / mo in 60657. Very tough, near impossible right now.
“For instance, average 1BR in my building rents around $2/sf vs 2BR which is at $1.76/sf. River North Lurker’s data without putting it in the context is misleading.”
Nope. I was comparing 2BR to 2BR within the same building. Since 2006 I have switched to a better tier, larger 2BR and my total rent went down slightly. Adjusting for square feet, my rent has gone gone down a lot. I attribute this to the large increase in 1BR and 2BR supply in RN/GC.
anon, my first time here was during the 93 hyperinflation period. Craziest thing i ever saw. We would go for massive dinners for maybe US 15 and 3 nights later, if they didn’t change the menu, the same meal was US 10. Next day they would change the menu prices and back to 15. Always woke up broke cause i knew if i exchanged more than i would use, it was worthless a day later. Fun stuff.
The 2 armed guys downstairs are included.
“I’m going to guess that the selection bias here is because of ‘most’ Ccers being younger than the overall citywide demographics.”
Based on the lack of knowledge of family costs, reasons why families buy the houses they do, etc. — I’d agree.
At most you have a few young parents in their mid-30’s struggling with pulling the trigger on a TH or SFH.
interesting side note, and a bit anecdotal I guess but….
I work for a large fortune 100 company and my buddy from coporate real estate (based on west coast) was in town for a meeting of Corp real estate people from other big corps. I sat in on one of there lectures, and from what I can tell these are people who are mostly not from Chicago, organizing the renting of a large number of units (in our case 40) and picking places by location and paying from what I can tell market or above market rates. So compared to the rest of the city, and type of stock I am not suprised to find this segment doing relatively well
“i knew if i exchanged more than i would use, it was worthless a day later. Fun stuff. ”
And now it’s the opposite, right? Or did you just mails some cows to the IRS?
I would say postings here mostly by late 30’s early 40’s.. I go with moo moo 🙂
Interesting Lurker, my bad I misunderstood you.
In my building which is incidentally in SL, the rentals have not gone down and better tiers (say corner units or nicer views) rent higher. I got the data from my Realtor as we wanted to know how much rents are in our building in case we move to another place and rent ours.
“I would say postings here mostly by late 30’s early 40’s”
Postings, sure, posters, maybe not.
“Or did you just mails some cows to the IRS?”
The GE gingle is stuck in my head right now…
Did synch up estrus in all my cows the past 8 days and yesterday the vet came and did my first group Artificial Insemination.. was trippy cool, makin life from a straw.
Property Tax, I found out last week. R$63 a year… love rural laws!
jingle..
“Postings, sure, posters, maybe not.”
I think both… maybe the *very* infrequent posters are younger.
You, I picture as CC’s Gringo Pai Mei, so that ups the average. Miu gets to be O-Ren Ishii or Gogo Yubari… tough call on that one.
The people posting here have to be in their late 20s early 30s – there is no way anyone over 40 is that naiive to be posting what the majority of people post.
Maybe Sabrina can incorporate a poll function to allow anonymous voting. I’m thinking about the age thing being discussed there, as well as say “your rent/sq ft” or “mortgage/sq ft”.
So Clio you’re around 18 then?
@ ze, lol…if all else fails you can make a career as a comedian. To give you a hint O-Ren Ishii is a better match but still pretty off : )
Regarding the data…the fact is that, regardless of occupancy rates, the data shows that rents are near a peak. Now it could be that people are skewing towards renting smaller places, which have a higher cost/SF, but the point of the article is that rents have moved up.
The article attributes the increases to soaring demand, but the fact is that occupancy and absorption appear to disprove that.
“The article attributes the increases to soaring demand, but the fact is that occupancy and absorption appear to disprove that.”
They are equating a soaring number of renters (up 35% in 3 years) at (supposedly) stable effective rents with soaring demand. Not completely absurd, if not actually correct.
Based on personal experience, I would have to agree with the people who say that rents are only high in the River North corporate apartment rental complexes. Renting from a condo owner is SO much cheaper (and the unit is often nicer). It amazes me that many “luxury rentals” are charging upwards of $3000/mo for a 2/2 with “apartment grade” finishes (I’m specifically thinking about a certain building who’s name is something like “water”). I can rent a nicer place for about $800 less just by renting from a private owner.
I can only assume that these super-high rents are being paid by transplants from NYC, Tokyo or somewhere like that because you’d have to be out of your mind to pay these prices if you have any knowledge of local market conditions.
Pete – Actually these rents ($2.50/SF+) are being paid by single people and couples in their mid-late 20’s or early 30’s with household incomes of $80-140k who don’t see the value in buying a place that they will grow out of in 5 years or less due to family size changes. They are acustomed to granite and stainless steel, and while they may never cook, they at least want it to look like they do/can. The transaction costs, fear of tied up equity/not being able to sell and value of no maintenance/responsibility place people who have the means to ‘buy’ that $300-375k condo in high-end rentals today.
In 2002-2004 all of those people bought new construction condos and are now pretty stuck. They have a 2BR/2BA 1150 SF in a nice location, but with a crib and another baby on the way, they want to go to the suburbs or farther north in the city for more space. The generation after them isn’t buying from them, and instead is renting until they have to buy a house-house.
“my first time here was during the 93 hyperinflation period. Craziest thing i ever saw.”
When I was there in 89, they replaced the old cruzados with cruzado novos at 1,000 to 1. I think it was only a couple years after they replaced the old cruzeiro with the original cruzado at 1,000 to 1. They didn’t even print all new money yet, they just rubber-stamped old 10k notes with “10 cruzado novos.” Best advice I got before going down was to bring as many $1 bills as I could carry. I never needed to exchange any money with those in hand. $3 steak meals on Atlantic Ave, 30cent pints of beer, and 75cent cab rides from Ipanema to Copa were the norm. A night for 3 couples in a big club at that time with a lot of drinks was ~$30. An acquaintence from NYC owned a PH in Ipanema (full floor plus lounge room, aviary and deck on rooftop a block or so from Atl ave – exactly what I picture for you, btw) that was worth about $80k at the time. He let me stay when business took him back to NYC and my $30k millionaire status led to a long and memorable stay…
As for the G-string, nope, not even there. But I will admit to nothing at all while in Buzios. That ought to provide an even better visual.
Are there any good websites for locating condos for rent by owner in River North? My daughter is going to be looking for one soon.
“Are there any good websites for locating condos for rent by owner in River North? My daughter is going to be looking for one soon.”
Check over on YOchicago dot com they have a good resource for rentals by neighborhood.
dont know if they cover rentals by average joes renting their condos they can unload?
Considering JZ’s last paid appearance here when he stated “Most condo rentals are listed in the MLS and easily searched there at any reputable broker site,” I’m gonna guess he ain’t paid to promote average joes.
I’m 39, have the afore-mentioned $2050 PITI on a 15 year. We bought within our means, are happy with the home & hood.
We also have the kid in an excellent magnet school not far away at all, so our non-obsession with this “Green Zone” hoopla may explain our relative happiness.
The naivete line is pretty funny, considering the majority of people here called the housing bust long before the “experts” did, even as Rome was burning around them.
Go back to 2004 – 2006, when people hadn’t connected the dots and realized that the tech stock bubble economy had just been swapped out with a housing bubble economy. That’s the ultimate knife catching feat, to get out of being over-leveraged in the knife-production industry altogether.
“The people posting here have to be in their late 20s early 30s – there is no way anyone over 40 is that naiive to be posting what the majority of people post.”
“It amazes me that many “luxury rentals” are charging upwards of $3000/mo for a 2/2 with “apartment grade” finishes (I’m specifically thinking about a certain building who’s name is something like “water”). I can rent a nicer place for about $800 less just by renting from a private owner.”
Yeah, a lot of those so-called “luxury rentals” are a joke. With a lot of the them, the only aspect that could even remotely be considered ‘luxury’ is their location. I would argue that location alone does not constitute a luxury place; maybe others would disagree.
The term “luxury” is so overused these days, I pretty much just ignore it altogether.
“But I will admit to nothing at all while in Buzios.”
Because Buzios is boring? Zzzzzzzzzzz…
Btw, I cannot picture you in a club in Rio.
Milkster, once again, your comprehension fails you.
JPS: try Craigslist but imo it is best to select 10 target buildings and search by exact address to escape the apartment brokers misleading trap ads. I note Chicago Craigslist just added a new category apparently aimed at excluding apartment brokers but it will probably take owners a while to migrate to that category
“$3 steak meals on Atlantic Ave, 30cent pints of beer, and 75cent cab rides from Ipanema to Copa were the norm.”
This however does fit with your character.
Btw, did you tip on top of those generous sums?
MIlkster.. Buzios is neat and rocks on holidays and summers. Personally I like Angra much more. As for the $3 dollar steaks and laughing about treating a group for a $30 night out… ahhh good memories. Now it’s a wee bit more than that. Wonder if your friend still has the place? Worth a wee bit more now too. I would guess 80k to at least 5 mil in 22 years.. that one can break a calculator…not bad!
I’m in my 50’s, just attended or attending college graduations of my two youngest so I’m “southbound” in future as we no longer need or want current location or a SFH. My piti is about $2800 based on mid 90’s purchase pricing & somewhat conservative borrowing but hey I needed to borrow at times to pay my share of 40 semesters at very good schools.
They did? They’ve had this for a while in NY (where it’s broken down by fee vs. no-fee, owner vs broker, etc). Didn’t realize it was operating in Chicago, tho (and don’t see it on CL — am I missing it?)
By the way, you can pretty much filter out the brokers yourself since 99% don’t (want/need/know how to) disguise their listings by making them look like an owner’s posting.
“Chicago Craigslist just added a new category apparently aimed at excluding apartment brokers”
“The term “luxury” is so overused these days”
“these” days? It’s been overused for 15 years. I remember the “luxury loft condo” banners on buildings in towns on *Ireland’s* west coast in 2001. “Luxury” is meaningless.
Hi Gringo!
Thanks for the recommendation. I’ll look up Angra. The crowd at Buzios was old and un-hip and that town based it’s whole marketing campaign on Brigitte Bardot visiting it like 500 years ago which is why I guess it appealed to G.
Southbound, is it possible you’re thinking of the real estate *for sale* section of CL, which does separate by-owner and by-broker?
“to pay my share of 40 semesters at very good schools”
Trying to wrap my head around this. Do you have 5 kids who all went through 4 years of college? I can’t imagine that, as I’m sweating the financing for just one, whom I’m HOPING will get into UI, and then forego any thought of an MBA or MD.
Roma: On my Craigslist search I can choose searches between “all apartments” or more narrowly “all no fee apartments” which I took to be excluding apartment brokers. But I noticed very few of building I searched were in “all no fee apartments” which is why I surmised it will take time to be utilized by condo owners.
Ah, i see, thx. agreed, this will never take hold unless it’s a required field and all apts are organized as by “owner” or “broker”, as furniture is.
“By the way, you can pretty much filter out the brokers yourself since 99% don’t (want/need/know how to) disguise their listings by making them look like an owner’s posting.”
I don’t think the problem is in differentiating a legit owner listing from a ‘locator service’ garbage listing.
The problem is that the locator services are absolutely bombarding Craigslist with literally tens of thousands of worthless listings every hour, using ‘bots’ (it’s not possible that people are posting these). So searching for a legit post is very difficult.
This has apparently gotten a lot worse just in the past two years since that last time I was looking to rent a new place. There were a lot of garbage posts then too, but you could still find the legit ones.
“This however does fit with your character.”
How’s that, milkster? By paying the going rate?
“Btw, did you tip on top of those generous sums?”
One of the 3 prime rules I have always upheld, and today teach my kids, is “when in doubt, tip heavily.”
Funny thing was, the PH owner in Ipanema would get pissed off when he’d see me tip because he thought they would start expecting it. I didn’t really like him much from that point on. But, I liked his place just fine! One of life’s trade-offs. Kind of like how your “boyfriend” balances your penny-pinching vs a place to stay, no? I mean, why buy the cow if the milkster is free?
“which is why I guess it appealed to G.”
Did you notice when I said I was there, milkster? Considering I was taken there by club-going twenty-something cariocas and it was a party unlike even the NYC scene was offering at the time, perhaps it may have changed a bit?
it has gotten worse, it’s true. but, as i said, it’s much easier if you know a trick or two 😉
even if you don’t want to take the extra step of exporting, you can browse pretty quickly and efficiently simply using the find function on any internet browser
Michelle: Although I recommend against it as a strategy, having 5 kids helped us negotiate with colleges (who you should view when it matters more as car dealers rather than institutions of higher learning) particularly when 3 were in private colleges at same time. But it was a miserable grind aggravated by the collapse of commercial real estate development industry that I am very very happy to have behind me & us. 40 semesters x $25K is about $1 million at list prices altho one went a state school at much lower cost/ semester.
“who you should view when it matters more as car dealers rather than institutions of higher learning”
Thanks, SB, will keep that in mind. I love me a good haggle session. Hats off to your five kids on their sheepskins, and to you for getting them there.
As others have mentioned, some high-end managed rental buildings may be succeeding in pushing through small rent increases, but this is definitely the exception. Most rents across the city are flat. Rentals prices of condo units are definitely stagnant or even declining, even in top tier condo buildings.
I agree with pete that the young people paying above market rent rents are likely to be from out of town or not familiar with Chicago’s options. There just are not that many people, who actually know the market, who want to rent at $2.29/sf+. I am in the late 20s/early 30s group, have rented in several RN and other GZ locations, and would never consider paying that much for a place, even though my SO and I are well above the 80-140k HHI range. The only people from Chicago I know who pay that much or willing to accept ridiculous rent increases are not paying entirely out of their own pockets (parents subsidize), and there are not that many people who fit in this category by their late 20s.
One of the 3 prime rules I have always upheld, and today teach my kids, is “when in doubt, tip heavily.”
And tipping heavily for you was what, 6 cents on a 30 cent pint?
I see, he really is just taking the free milkster. Don’t worry though, he’ll grow tired of you just like all those before.
Buzios was still kind of sleepy in 2000. 15 dollars a night got you a room in a cottage right on the water. and I’m sure we paid the gringo rate.
It definitely wasn’t sleepy when the cariocas who took me there pulled into town. It seemed to be where they really cut loose.
“Milkster, once again, your comprehension fails you.”
G – is this your standard response to people who disagree with you? I actually know milkster and can vouch that she knows what she is doing and talking about!!
“15 dollars a night got you a room in a cottage right on the water. ”
This is where Americans don’t see just how bad they are getting pounded. Planning a trip right now and can’t believe what is going on with hotel prices internationally. Places that were always soooo cheap are now expensive.
Hahahaha! You are so cute when you get mad.
I’m not sure where you get your information from but my boyfriend is a great guy and very generous too 🙂
But I wonder what your wife’s doing while you think she’s sitting around with anticipation waiting for you to come home? While you’re patting yourself on the back thinking you have such a great life with her? Hmmmm?
“G – is this your standard response to people who disagree with you? I actually know milkster and can vouch that she knows what she is doing and talking about!!”
No, my standard response is to prove them to be factually incorrect, as you know very well. But, in this case, Milkster decided to open with attempted insults when no disagreement existed.
It’s funny, though, that you support her personal attacks. Funnier, still, that you believe your support means anything here.
“I’m not sure where you get your information from but my boyfriend is a great guy and very generous too ”
You forgot to add “temporary.”
“It definitely wasn’t sleepy when the cariocas who took me there pulled into town. It seemed to be where they really cut loose.”
And they liked you for your personality. Just keep telling yourself that 😉
“But I wonder what your wife’s doing while you think she’s sitting around with anticipation waiting for you to come home? While you’re patting yourself on the back thinking you have such a great life with her? Hmmmm?”
I guess that once the biological clock stops, a spinster has to believe that love is impossible. Either that, or spend their years looking at (but not buying) out-of-town real estate in order to fill some void. Or both.
Michelle: As is most often the case their mother had hugely more to do with their success than I. I fought for status quo every step of the way while their mom following a plan and amending it as she deemed prudent, moved them from local Catholic school to another school to gifted CPS school to suburban school to better HS district. She also found and made our kids apply for scholarships while I pooh poohed the notion (among many other notions) that a black sorority would give our daughter a scholarship – they did explaining her essay about her grandmothers hit universal notes that resonated. That daughter won more than 15 scholarships ranging from one time $500 – $1000 (Irish Fellowship and said sorority) to $5K/yr from foundation run by founder of 7-11. So it will be up to you imo – I was mainly in charge of making enough money to keep the good ship on course. Good luck and it all works out in my experience. Now back to focusing on Chicago real estate
“And they liked you for your personality. Just keep telling yourself that.”
Who cares when the milk is free?
Regarding luxury rentals, i have a friend relocating to Chicago and wants to live in RN in a luxury building. We walked through the newest buildings, env, flair, and parc huron. These places are really nice, most better appointed then some of the condos we walked through that were available for rent. It’s hard to justify paying $2100-$2500 for a 1 BR though, and I think that included any incentives they were offering. The demand is pretty strong at these buildings too. Many of the units available were scooped up within a week.
man you all have been so cryptic, catty and aloof lately
is it the full moon or something?
“Funnier, still, that you believe your support means anything here.”
Followed by absolutely hilarious that you i) actually care about your online blog reputation and ii) spend time trying to degrade the online blog reputation of others.
JMM, Like I said, I prefer to prove them factually incorrect, as you also know very well.
$2100-$2500 for a 1 bed is crazy – anywhere in Chicago. Nothing could possibly make it worth that much. I’d love to know what kinds of rubes are paying these prices considering how many extremely nicely furnished 1 bedroom condos can be rented for well under $2000/mo.
OMG, 5 kids? Your wife should be of some superior specie. I have not gone through the last stretch yet (no pun intended) and already cannot imagine doing this again. It take 10 month to bake it. I for one envy, any lucky women who found a man who does not want kids and applaud all the ones who did this thing more than once!
“having 5 kids helped us negotiate with colleges “
“I for one envy, any lucky women who found a man who does not want kids”
Some of those women don’t consider themselves lucky…
Believe me they are. I think it is a conspiracy the married couples and folks with children have started, telling the other side how wonderful it is while in reality they don’t want to be alone and looking for expanding their misery around : )
“I’d love to know what kinds of rubes are paying these prices”
They appear to be the same rubes that were required for developers to get condo project approvals. Now that they are pursuing apt development, they miraculously reappear. The result will be the same: a temporary bubble followed by years of supply issues.
“factually incorrect”
Yet you don’t “prove” anything. In fact, you have difficulty drawings any conclusions or providing any analsysis. You simply accuse people of lying because you cannot interpret their own analysis, which may or may not be useful but is still better than raw statistically insignificant data.
Have you get received a confession from the IAR? We’re still waiting on that one.
“Yet you don’t “prove” anything.”
Of course not, JMM. That is why you are intent on “degrading my blog reputation” and moving the goalposts every time you are called out.
Right G, I just happen to point out your factual inaccuracies so call it what you want.
Just like how your point on taxes was inaccurate and misleading because you suggested municipality effective rates you presented attach to the municipality itself when in fact they do not. Taxes are levied by all jurisdictions serving a location, which can include everthing from community colleges mosquito abatement areas. The fact of the matter is that the city of Chicago taxes as a municipal jurisdiction aren’t anywhere near the lowest as a percentage of MV. The fact of the matter is school districts are often the largest taxing bodies one must pay for. In many cases, the amount of tax you pay is heavily influenced by your school district and now which town you live in.
I know this is all new to you. But nice try though.
“degrading my blog reputation”
When you actually draw a conclusion supported by analysis I will evaluate whether I agree with it. Since you have yet to do so, there is very little to degrade other than your inane proclivity to assail the opinion of others, backed by little in the way of anything sound or analytical.
By the way, G, I am waiting on that IAR retraction / correction. Pls advise.
Miumiu: My wife found a man who did not want any kids while she wanted many. I now know she bested me in settlement negotiations. Just observing their deliveries terrorized me – I would have gladly stopped at 1 or 3. But I don’t complain about the results.
Actually my grandpa used to say if having kids were left to men, the human kind would be extinct by now. Women are a resilient bunch for sure : )
Hey all,
first, I wanted to say that I am a newcomer to the site, have been reading over the last week and found user comments to be insightful, but not informative.
Getting a trend for the 20 or so frequent posters, it seems half are pessimists, and half are optimists (ex. clio, although if i owned a lambo, id have a positive outlook on life as well).
I am a 26 year old student living in the north burbs, about to move downtown to finish school, and likely stay for the next 5-8 years minimum. Before I started researching, I was really in to buying a 2/2 in the RN, GC, Old town, or souther LP areas. But after reading on here and elsewhere, I now have my doubts. I am new to the Chicago market, but I thought that since the market is so bad, it would be a good time to buy. I have ~250-300,000 liquid to buy. What would people recommend? Rent? Buy?
What are risks of buying in a building that has high foreclosure, such as The Sterling (345n lasalle)? Is it better to stay away from shorts and foreclosure sales? Is it better to pay a higher price to get into a building that has a solid foundation?
I would appreciate hearing your comments, from people who have more experience…. although I am sure I will hear both sides.
If anyone has additional advice, I would love to get your contact info.
Thanks to anyone who does respond
I’m quite happy just hanging in Leblon Rio de Janerio
Old Town rental datapoint
2bd 1400 sq. ft. $2250 2010 data
3bd 2200 sq. ft. $3600 2011 data
SLoop rental datapoint
1 bd 800 sq. ft. $1500 2011 data
“chichow on May 18th, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Old Town rental datapoint
2bd 1400 sq. ft. $2250 2010 data
3bd 2200 sq. ft. $3600 2011 data”
LOL!!!
Property pics or it didn’t happen. That jump is a straight up joke.
Errr… by that jump, I meant THOSE RENTS. Mea culpa.
“albert k. on May 18th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
I am a 26 year old student living in the north burbs […] I have ~250-300,000 liquid to buy. What would people recommend? Rent? Buy?”
Ha. At this rate, consult your helicopter parents (and your trust manager) that will no doubt swoop in to annoyingly inundate any and every listing agent, broker, or private seller with a litany of questions. Not Crib Chatter. Good lord.
LMAO @ 250-300K liquid at 26 and soliciting the advice of CC.
Hi Albert, if you have so much cash it might make more sense for you to buy than rent and just throw away the money every month IMHO. But, if I were you, I would avoid buildings that have problems, high assessments (again throwing money out), and getting sucked into buying something too fancy so you end up paying tones for mortgage. There are tone of nice 2/2s in very well run prime buildings that go under 500K, even closer to 400K.
What is your must have criteria? parking? nice amenities (gym, pool,…), view, modern interior?
One last word of advice for whatever it is worth: do not rush. Look carefully at least for couple of month if not more before you decide.
from a guy that lives in RN don’t buy in the sterling… unless its dirt cheap (like 1br monthly nut for a 2br)
My advice: Whatever you do- don’t buy a 1-bedroom. You’re unlikely to live there “5-8 years”.
At least with a 2/2 if you get married it’s feasible to have another person living there for several years without going crazy.
You can now get a 2/2 in Lakeview and some other areas (south loop, west loop) for around $300k.
Roma, you keep telling us you know how to search craigslist for apartments without all the spam. How is that done? Thanks in advance!
Miumiu my mother popped 6 of us out. It did not make her superior in any way.
albert… U left out a huge piece of the puzzle. Is your savings accumulated over years or are you out there knockin em dead and doin this on income, and how stable do you feel that is.
“Just like how your point on taxes was inaccurate and misleading because you suggested municipality effective rates you presented attach to the municipality itself when in fact they do not. Taxes are levied by all jurisdictions serving a location, which can include everthing from community colleges mosquito abatement areas. ”
LOL. Another perfect example of jmm’s nonsense. What did he suppose I meant when I stated that the rates I posted were approximate due to varying taxing districts within municipalities? I thought it was pretty clear for someone with even a basic understanding of taxation. JMM obviously didn’t understand, as this declaration of basic knowledge, as if a revelation, proves.
“I guess that once the biological clock stops, a spinster has to believe that love is impossible. Either that, or spend their years looking at (but not buying) out-of-town real estate in order to fill some void. Or both.”
Hahahaha! Wrong on both claims. And I’m happy to have the CCers judge my looks and health anytime we have a get-together.
Also, I just closed on my second Chicago property. I took A-Fed’s advice and bought an REO, so thank you, A-Fed.
So, I’m your new neighbor, G. Get used to it! I love Chicago.
Here’s a story for you, G –
An acquaintance of mine went out with a woman recently. She told him she was married with kids. Not divorced. Not separated. Just cheatin’!! All it took for him to bed that tramp was a cheap drink. And he’s not even good looking and has limited charm. He said he had the feeling this wasn’t her first time steppin’ out on her husband.
So before you congratulate yourself too much for having such a nice family, maybe you should consider whether your wifey is smokin’ the cable guy’s pole while you’re at work.
Unless she’s ugly and no one wants her.
“I actually know milkster…”
It’s true. Clio and I are friends. We met through CC. He is a man of his word and he would give you the shirt off his back.
So, too bad Bob. You should have been nicer to him when he offered you owner financing.
“whether your wifey is smokin’ the cable guy’s pole while you’re at work.”
Ah mouth like that.. you passed the interview! Oh you have no idea how hard I try not to say things like that in just about every post. Real life fortunately… no such hesitation 🙂
Milkster – So where and what did you end up buying?
“He is a man of his word ”
Great, he’ll honor our bet then.
“What did he suppose I meant when I stated that the rates I posted were approximate due to varying taxing districts within municipalities”
It meant when you looked it up you saw that you had to pick a Kenilworth composite rate, so you noticed one rate has 36 and one has 38 and picked one. Your mistake was you took a composite rate for all services: library, schools, municipality, county, and passed it off as the tax rates for the individual cities / villages.
You are the one who doesn’t understand what you are posting, because that is not how it works.
The fact of the matter is that Oak Brook as a municipality has zero tax. Why don’t you revise and republish those rates? That is precisely what was at issue.
G, where is the IAR correction? Still waiting.
“Believe me they are. I think it is a conspiracy the married couples and folks with children have started, telling the other side how wonderful it is while in reality they don’t want to be alone and looking for expanding their misery around”
Funny if its a joke 🙂 but if not Moo-moo its is 1000x more awesomerererer with your own little ones. shoot my only trade off is a change in sleeping scheduled which is well worth it.
to sit and watch my son spin in circles and run from one end of the yard to the other end laughing and smiling the whole time shows us grown ups the meaning of true happiness with out worries or cares.
shoot last night we were out to dinner and to entertain the little guy i was tossing croutons in the air and catching them in my mouth. for the oddest reason he found it the funniest thing in the world and was laughing harder than i ever heard him.
who gives a f*** if it was ill-mannered or impolite, and who cares how loud my son was laughing we had all five tables next to us cracking up hear the little guy crack up.
no misery to spread, like i said all that changed was the sleeping schedule and the limited tv i watch now is replaced with elmo, thomas, and nemo. i would have spent money anyway so thats not a issue. and now i have advance knowledge of CPS works in which i wouldnt have other wise.
“It meant when you looked it up you saw that you had to pick a Kenilworth composite rate, so you noticed one rate has 36 and one has 38 and picked one. Your mistake was you took a composite rate for all services: library, schools, municipality, county, and passed it off as the tax rates for the individual cities / villages.”
The discussion was about tax bills. I clearly stated that the rates for municipalities were approx due to varying taxing units. Of course I used the composite rate, since that is what the tax bill represents and that is what was being discussed. Your bloviating changes none of this. Here it is for all to see:
http://cribchatter.com/?p=10517#comment-156769
“You are the one who doesn’t understand what you are posting, because that is not how it works.”
What I posted was about approx effective tax rates for tax bill comparisons because that was what was being discussed. Who cares how it works? Should I have discussed the budgeting process and levy, too? Perhaps an analysis of equalization factor changes and tax shifts due to property class assessment level manipulations? Once again, bloviating like you do adds nothing to the discussion.
“The fact of the matter is that Oak Brook as a municipality has zero tax.”
Common knowledge and nobody was challenging it, anyway, because it was irrelevant. It is funny that you bring this up when clio only raised it as a straw man after taking a factual pounding. Two peas in a pod.
“Why don’t you revise and republish those rates? That is precisely what was at issue.”
LOL. No, what was at issue was tax bill comparisons over municipal lines. I provided some general facts for that use, including that they were approx rates due to varying taxing units within municipalities. I believe it was helpful and informative, as did Groove (and others, I’m sure.) Anyone can click the link above and see for themselves. I wonder if anyone believes that your participation in this discussion were helpful, too?
Groove that was a great description of parenthood. I couldn’t agree more. Miumiu you’ll see. It’s hard to explain to others, but you’ll know soon enough.
Unless you’re like my witch of a mother but I already see that isn’t the case.
“Groove that was a great description of parenthood. I couldn’t agree more. Miumiu you’ll see. It’s hard to explain to others, but you’ll know soon enough.”
and there will be rough days too, dont get me wrong. some days i freak out and think my kids is going deaf but then i whisper the word cookie and little sticky hands will turn his head quicker than a squirrel on red bull (just watch over the hedge sorry).
i swear he has started to ignore me purposely now when i tell him not to do something or stop. but hey wife does that to me for years so i have had practice 🙂
“My advice: Whatever you do- don’t buy a 1-bedroom. You’re unlikely to live there “5-8 years”.
At least with a 2/2 if you get married it’s feasible to have another person living there for several years without going crazy.
You can now get a 2/2 in Lakeview and some other areas (south loop, west loop) for around $300k.”
Perhaps sounder advice for a cash buyer like Albert K, but I disagree with the premise that 1 bedrooms should be avoided at all costs and only 2/2s or above should be purchased, which cost significantly more and are larger than a single person needs (also a couple could easily live in a 1/1, so long as they didn’t import their outsized expectations of space from the suburbs).
1/1s may experience larger haircuts initially, but that just makes them better deals. Also not loading up on 300k of debt is a good thing: comparing a 2/2 for 315k vs. a 1/1 for 165k that $6k/year in interest saved.
The only problem I see with 1/1s, and it’s a pretty common problem: is ones with a designated, off street parking space are very rare in the greenzone outside of some downtown highrises.
lol at Groove and Jennifer, you guys are witty. I think there are many ways to be happy in life. Some love to be parents, others hate it and most are in between. I just don’t like it when married people get all condescending on singles or vise versa. There is more than one way to skin a cat. BTW, who came up with this saying? It is so psychotic. Why does anyone need to skin a cat, not like they are cows and you make shoes out of them or something!
“I just don’t like it when married people get all condescending on singles or vise versa.”
no condescension from me, i can careless if somebody has kids or not.
JUST DONT COMPARE HAVING A DOG TO KIDS….
…ITS NOT THE SAME JACKAZZ!!!!
“I just don’t like it when married people get all condescending on singles or vise versa.”
I think that’s just your friends …
“Why does anyone need to skin a cat”
To feed them to the rats and the rats to the cats, so you can get the cat skins for nothing.
fyi: http://www.snopes.com/critters/disposal/catrat.asp
dogs are great, they always love you every damn day, you only have to feed them once a day and they don’t talk back
and there’s that word bloviate again!
“JUST DONT COMPARE HAVING A DOG TO KIDS….
…ITS NOT THE SAME JACKAZZ!!!!”
I totally agree, Groove. Pets are so much more special and delicate. They also require so much more time and care. Having pets is like taking care of a toddler – and can be just as expensive!!!
pass
“dogs are great, they always love you every damn day, you only have to feed them once a day and they don’t talk back”
Depends. I know a guy who had a pit bull who never really took care of him, kept him caged up all day and rarely let him outside. Pit bull one day turned on his owner–not a breed you want attacking you as his 27 stitches showed.
I am not a dog person, but cats are just adorable. They walk like they own the world and they have class. More importantly they are clean and know where to do their business : )
Groove, you realize Clio is joking. He likes the attention : )
“Groove, you realize Clio is joking. He likes the attention : )”
thats why i decided to pass.
“thats why i decided to pass.”
that has become my policy too
well It sounds like your friend is a real dick, bob
my dogs are of that similar (not exact) breed type and yes they have a very strong grip. playing tug of war with them is a war that you will rarely win!
and cats are terrible, I wish them all the worst
“well It sounds like your friend is a real dick, bob”
He is NOT my friend–a former roommate of some friends of mine.
yep….. Can’t blame a dog for a sucky owner.
Love dogs, most wonderful species on the planet. Well the eating poop thing might take off a few points.
lol…oh Sonies what have you got against the most adorable and regal creatures ever? Haven’t you heard “everybody wants to be a cat”?
“and cats are terrible, I wish them all the worst”
I have a cat and a toddler. No way is my cat anywhere near as expensive to keep as my toddler!
But cat shoes sound interesting…