Market Conditions: February 2023 Sales Plunge 37.3% from 17-Year High Last Year
Sales continue to be anemic in 2023 as 30-year mortgage rates remain over 6%. Sales were the lowest in February since 2011, which was, gulp, during the housing bust.
From the Illinois Association of Realtors:
The city of Chicago saw a 37.3 percent year-over-year home sales decrease in February 2023 with 1,207 sales, down from 1,924 in February 2022.
The median price of a home in the city of Chicago in February 2023 was $312,500, down 2.3 percent compared to February 2022 when it was $320,000.
Here is the sales data for February going back to 1997 (courtesy of G):
- 1997: 881 sales
- 1998: 991
- 2000: 1383
- 2001: 1151
- 2002: 1677
- 2003: 1566
- 2004: 1814
- 2005: 2228
- 2006: 1855
- 2007: 1703
- 2008: 1454
- 2009: 870
- 2010: 1257
- 2011: 1092
- 2012: 1250
- 2013: 1411
- 2014: 1361
- 2015: 1497
- 2016: 1567
- 2017: 1529
- 2018: 1535
- 2019: 1449
- 2020: 1496
- 2021: 1658
- 2022: 1924
- 2023: 1207
Here is the Median Price Data also going back to 1997 (thanks G!):
- 1997: $117,000
- 1998: $132,000
- 1999: $143,750
- 2000: $161,500
- 2001: $180,200
- 2002: $212,000
- 2003: $215,000
- 2004: $229,900
- 2005: $268,900
- 2006: $267,500
- 2007: $270,000
- 2008: $290,000
- 2009: $218,125 (with 31% being REO/Short Sales)
- 2010: $176,000 (with 46% being REO/Short Sales)
- 2011: $150,250 (with 50% being REO/Short Sales)
- 2012: $140,300 (with 52% being REO/Short Sales)
- 2013: $158,000
- 2014 $175,000
- 2015: $212,000
- 2016: $236,000
- 2017: $246,000
- 2018: $272,000
- 2019: $272,500
- 2020: $290,000
- 2021: $320,000
- 2022: $320,000
- 2023: $312,500
“Based on the February data, interest rates continue to impact the volume of transactions in the market,” said Sarah Ware, president of the Chicago Association of REALTORS® and principal and designated managing broker for Ware Realty Group in Chicago. “Still, we’re seeing a lot of negotiations happening, and days on the market and median sales price are steady.”
Statewide inventory fell 11.4% year-over-year to 17,684 from 19,956 last year. For comparison purposes about just how low inventory is, in February 2021, statewide inventory was 26,791.
In Chicago, inventory also fell 18.3% to 5084 from 6225 last year. In February 2021, it was 8055.
Days on the market fell to 47 days from 49 last year.
“Prices and sales increased month-over-month in both Illinois and the Chicago PMSA,” said Dr. Daniel McMillen, head of the Stuart Handler Department of Real Estate (SHDRE) at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Business Administration.
“Although the number of year-over-year sales is lower than at this time last year, the housing market appears to have begun its rebound from the winter downturn somewhat early. Our forecast is that the number of sales and the median price will continue to rise through May in both Illinois and the Chicago PMSA, and we expect the monthly sales growth rate to be higher this year than in 2022 in both locations.”
The 30-year fixed rate mortgage averaged 6.26% in February down from 6.27% in January. But in February 2022, it was 3.76%.
The Chicago market remains in a deep freeze but prices aren’t doing much, either up or down.
Is this going to be the norm for as long as rates are over 6%?
Are we in a low inventory market for the foreseeable future?
Illinois median home prices stayed the same in February while sales decline [Illinois Association of Realtors, Press Release, by Bill Kozar, March 21, 2023]
“Are we in a low inventory market for the foreseeable future?”
Yeah, until rates come down a bit (not sure how much is required). Very hard to raise your mortgage rate by 300 – 400 basis points without a lot of motivation. But life does happen.
I think my mortgage rate went up by 250 basis points when I moved but I just didn’t care. I knew what I needed to do. I also bet that within 3 or 4 years I’d be able to refinance at a lower rate or I’d reallocate money.
Inventory is going to remain low. From what I’ve seen doing mortgages is that the casual buyer is gone. What I mean by that is borrowers who buy a new place “just because…” they don’t really have a life event like a relocation, divorce, or kids to deal with.
I’m seeing a lot of people just continuing to rent or remaining put in current housing situation if their lifestyle permits it. There is no urgency.
“I’m seeing a lot of people just continuing to rent or remaining put in current housing situation if their lifestyle permits it. There is no urgency.”
But what about mUH dEMoGrAPhICs?
No one is giving up a 3% mortgage without a major life changing event
I havent seen anything about how low volume is impacting the industry. I suspect its hard on everyone involved in sales/financing/inspections etc.
@Pricesensitive, it is a bloodbath.
Volume is way down. Mortgage banks are pulling out of wholesale channel and many mortgage companies are starting to shut down / merge. Tons of layoffs of operations staff – underwriters, processors, closers, etc. Realtors and loan officers are commissioned staff so they never really get laid off, but many are leaving the business if they don’t have sources of business or the financial ability to weather the slow down.
I just looked at a mortgage calculator and I would be paying $1,000 more a month at 7% interest compared to my rate. I have several friends who had planned to sell condos and buy houses this spring, but that’s not happening. They feel trapped.
I’m sad to hear about the layoffs, Russ. I am really worried about potential layoffs. My laid off friends so far have found jobs quickly, but I don’t think that will last.
“My laid off friends so far have found jobs quickly, but I don’t think that will last.”
Mine too. The younger employees as well. But employers are getting more conservative now than even just 3 months ago. The bank crisis has spooked them. They will “wait and see” right now.
We’ve been so blessed. It was the best job market in 2 decades. A lot of people, including GenZ, have no real experience with a job market where they didn’t get multiple offers and gobs of money thrown at them. The college graduates of the last 2 years were in big demand. All you had to be was breathing. As I’ve recounted here, some people got 50% salary increases when they switched jobs.
That will slow but the job market won’t likely be “bad.” It’s just that Alphabet won’t hire 10,000 people per quarter anymore. But other employers will be hiring.
It used to take up to 6 months to find a job if you were laid off. Many are getting new jobs within a month or two right now. That’s amazing. Very strong job market still. It will probably slow further by summer and into the fall though.
“I have several friends who had planned to sell condos and buy houses this spring, but that’s not happening. They feel trapped.”
If they were already home owners, at least they hopefully have a low mortgage rate. They can just keep living where they are until the rates come down, or, if they don’t come down, they’ll have to reconsider neighborhoods and towns where they were going to buy a house so it fits within the budget.
The housing market is still adjusting to the higher rates. But no one thinks they’re going to be around much longer than this year. So why not just wait it out?
“Tons of layoffs of operations staff – underwriters, processors, closers, etc. Realtors and loan officers are commissioned staff so they never really get laid off, but many are leaving the business if they don’t have sources of business or the financial ability to weather the slow down.”
Yes. This. It’s truly terrible in the real estate industry right now. On the mortgage side, even the big producers are getting laid off at the big brokers now. There are almost no refis either.
For real estate agents, only the top agents will survive. It’s very similar to the housing bust years. Same thing happened then.
“But what about mUH dEMoGrAPhICs?”
That’s first-time buyers, right? Millennials. They are on the sidelines. 6%+ rates have priced many of them out of buying right now.
Wouldn’t you be on the sidelines JohnnyU? Unless you HAD to buy, you’d just keep renting and wait for the rates to come down.
Also, there aren’t enough properties on the market at the lower price points. When something decent does come on, it gets snapped up pretty quickly. But if you wanted to buy a $2 million downtown condo, you’d have plenty to choose from.
“I’m seeing a lot of people just continuing to rent or remaining put in current housing situation if their lifestyle permits it. There is no urgency.”
Yep. If rates remain elevated for several years, could be entering an era where people actually remain in their homes for a decade or more. Gasp. Imagine that. It’s a return to the 1980s.
Also, what sticks out to me in the yearly data is just how weak February 2001 was. Were we in a recession by then? Or was it just a really bad winter?
The weather wasn’t bad in February 2001. Temperatures averaged 26.1 degrees in Chicago that month, colder than normal but not in the top-30 coldest Februarys. Snowfall that month was minimal, and the near-record snow from December 2000 had mostly melted.
However, the economy was in recession as the dot-com bubble burst. It was the second of four-straight years of stock market declines. I doubt many were in a buying mood (my wife and I were starting to look then because we had a one year old and were planning another kid and didn’t want to be in a 2-BR condo any more – we moved in 2002).
Our kid who celebrated his first birthday in February 2001 has graduated college and lives in a rental apartment downtown now.
Correction – the stock market fell 3 years in a row, not four (2000-2002).
Gaslight much?
“That’s first-time buyers, right? Millennials. They are on the sidelines. 6%+ rates have priced many of them out of buying right now.”
You were the one that stated that buyers would just move down. Now you’ve got a generation of buyers stuck in shitbox 2/2’s because BuY nOW rEAl EsTaTe OnlY gOeS uP
“Wouldn’t you be on the sidelines JohnnyU? Unless you HAD to buy, you’d just keep renting and wait for the rates to come down.”
You’re the one saying that rents are too damn high and it was smarter to buy.
“Also, there aren’t enough properties on the market at the lower price points. When something decent does come on, it gets snapped up pretty quickly. But if you wanted to buy a $2 million downtown condo, you’d have plenty to choose from.”
More BS.
There arent enough properties available at a price point, location and amenities many buyers think they deserve. They can just move to Austin (neighborhood), right?
You are completely disconnected from reality
Ready a piece in the NYT yesterday about the Chicago mayor’s race (the one about the neighborhoods/wards, etc.). Who do you like?
“You were the one that stated that buyers would just move down. Now you’ve got a generation of buyers stuck in shitbox 2/2’s because BuY nOW rEAl EsTaTe OnlY gOeS uP”
Yes, they will move down. But if you really wanted to buy in Lakeview or the West Loop and you are now priced out as there are only 4 properties on the market in your price point, then you will simply wait, right? They are renting in luxury apartments. It’s really not a hardship to wait.
Besides, their parents, like me, are telling them to wait because the mortgage waits will come back down again (unless they don’t.)
Inventory is so low, even for those Millennials who want to buy, there is nothing on the market to do so. Even in the suburbs. Look at the statewide inventory. It is just 11,000 homes. My god. Pre-pandemic, that was 60,000.
“More BS.
There arent enough properties available at a price point, location and amenities many buyers think they deserve. They can just move to Austin (neighborhood), right?”
Maybe you didn’t read this actual post JohnnyU. Go back and read the line about inventory in Chicago. It is at record lows.
There are just 123 homes for sale in Austin right now. Many young people are buying in Austin as it has great historic home stock that is affordable and it’s cheaper than Oak Park. 107 homes are under contract.
But you can also get new home construction there, like this $589,000 single family home:
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1522-N-Leamington-Ave-60651/home/13280736
Only someone who lives in another city and hasn’t lived in Chicago in decades would immediately say a neighborhood like “austin” as the “bad” neighborhood no one would ever want to move to. That’s an older person who is living back in the 1970s and 80s. But it’s been 40 to 50 years. Things have changed in Chicago in big ways.
“You are completely disconnected from reality”
No, but you are. And it’s okay. I wouldn’t know what was happening in a city far, far away either. Maybe it’s time to schedule a visit to Chicago JohnnyU? Because it’s clearly been a long time.
“However, the economy was in recession as the dot-com bubble burst. It was the second of four-straight years of stock market declines. I doubt many were in a buying mood (my wife and I were starting to look then because we had a one year old and were planning another kid and didn’t want to be in a 2-BR condo any more – we moved in 2002).”
Stock market only declined 3 years and it actually rallied big to start the year in 2001. But properties that closed in February were probably under contract by December. So I guess we’d have to look at the weather in Dec 2000. Did we have big snows? Stock market could have been nasty that month though which is why it bounced in Jan/Feb 2001.
Because in February 2002, with the stock market down again in 2001, sales bounced back bigly. By hundreds of sales. It was just Feb 2001 that was terrible.
It’s a mystery.
Here’s one of the new construction homes in Austin. But it’s on the border with Galewood and Oak Park.
Listed at $600k. Under contract. Buyers love “new” but you’re not getting a new construction SFH in Chicago under $500k any longer. Land prices just too high as well as construction costs.
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1456-N-Monitor-Ave-60651/home/13277910
“Listed at $600k. Under contract. Buyers love “new” but you’re not getting a new construction SFH in Chicago under $500k any longer. Land prices just too high as well as construction costs.”
How much does it cost to build a place like this? They paid $50,700 for the land. The house appears to be modular, but I can’t tell for sure.
I wonder why they didn’t flip the layout instead of having the side facing the street be windowless.
Austin is cool. They have goat yoga. Do not go at the end of the season when the kids are getting heavy. It hurts a bit.
“Ready a piece in the NYT yesterday about the Chicago mayor’s race (the one about the neighborhoods/wards, etc.). Who do you like?”
No one knows what is going to happen anonny. From what I understand, turnout is, so far, higher than the first round, which is good.
As far as real estate goes, neither one has much of a history in it so it’s unclear what direction the winner will take. But Lightfoot didn’t really have a history in it either and she is leaving with a lot of projects approved like the casino and the LaSalle Street corridor plan.
Whomever wins HAS to have a plan for Michigan Avenue but from what I have heard from both, neither does.
“How much does it cost to build a place like this? They paid $50,700 for the land. The house appears to be modular, but I can’t tell for sure.”
They got the land price subsidized with those new builds in Woodlawn and still had to list them at around $550,000 in order to make any profit.
Lumber was at record highs in the last 2 years (has come down in price) but copper, windows, garage doors all more expensive. Labor costs have gone up too.
After the housing bust, we had a bunch of similar square homes built for $400,000 to $450,000 in various west side neighborhoods. That was the lowest they went, though.
Now, Over 10 years later, they are listing them for between $500,000 and $600,000. Costs have gone up.
Many used to mock the price of the $400,000 new build homes on this blog but those buyers made out like bandits.
Here’s the 2011-2012 homes they were building all over the west side. I like the current design of those new homes in Austin better. I like the slanted roof design.
We chattered about this house at 1214 N. Rockwell. It was on the alley though so it took longer to sell. It was also on a smaller 24×102 lot than some of the others that had this same design.
https://cribchatter.com/west-town-new-construction-single-family-home-still-on-the-market-1214-n-rockwell/
Sold for the $369,000 ask and Redfin estimates it’s worth $725,000 today.
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1214-N-Rockwell-St-60622/home/13288819
“Yes, they will move down. But if you really wanted to buy in Lakeview or the West Loop and you are now priced out as there are only 4 properties on the market in your price point, then you will simply wait, right? They are renting in luxury apartments. It’s really not a hardship to wait.”
I was saying that someone looking at LP aint going to move to Bronzeville and you stated that they would. Jebus, are you drunk already?
“Besides, their parents, like me, are telling them to wait because the mortgage waits will come back down again (unless they don’t.)”
Too funny coming from you. Total clownshoes coming from Ms 2/2 crapshacks are a good investment
“Inventory is so low, even for those Millennials who want to buy, there is nothing on the market to do so. Even in the suburbs. Look at the statewide inventory. It is just 11,000 homes. My god. Pre-pandemic, that was 60,000.”
Yeah – no one is giving up a 3% rate and prices for existing properties havent hit an equilibrium point for the HMAM’ers. Ive stated this plenty of times and you’ve disagreed
Grow up
“$400,000 to $450,000 in various west side neighborhoods. That was the lowest they went”
+
“Sold for the $369,000”
=
Huh??
Those houses that made it into the comments on that post did all turn out to be *very* good values for the buyers, whether they paid $370k or $430k.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/mcdonalds-reportedly-temporarily-shuts-us-corporate-offices-ahead-layo-rcna77851
I can’t find the link but over the weekend I saw an article saying that have of Millennials are now homeowners.
Half obviously…
I don’t get why anyone would pay $600k to live in Austin. Five more blocks and you can buy a decent house in Oak Park and have none of the Austin crime and good schools.
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/936-N-Lombard-Ave_Oak-Park_IL_60302_M73897-70888
Yeah, I guess the house is “new” but who wants to be the shiny new $600k house on a street full of trap houses?
That house in Austin was discussed on local Oak Park facebook group as people couldn’t believe someone would pay $600k.
“That house in Austin was discussed on local Oak Park facebook group as people couldn’t believe someone would pay $600k.”
The taxes in Oak Park on that house are $16,000/year. I don’t think the taxes on the Chicago house will be anywhere near as high.
Jenny, yeah but you don’t have to pay for private school.
“The taxes in Oak Park on that house are $16,000/year. I don’t think the taxes on the Chicago house will be anywhere near as high.”
Right? Taxes in Oak Park are now outrageous. Everyone I know whose kids are done with the schools have moved. Yes, some young families are now moving in but if you’re middle class you can’t afford the taxes.
What are the schools like in Austin? Could be a scenario like what we saw in the housing bust that people who were in that neighborhood took it upon themselves to improve the local school so that’s how we got Nettlehorst, South Loop elementary and some of the others on the north side. Eventually, word spreads, and people want to move in because of the school.
Yep, McDonald’s is doing layoffs this week. It hasn’t done so in several years and has been hiring a bunch. Most companies are going to be doing so. Thoughts are with all of them. It sucks.
Hard to know the impact on the city, if any, because a lot of McDonald’s long-time employees still live in the western suburbs.
“Huh??”
I forgot about the Rockwell house. It was on the alley and had the smaller lot so they priced it under $400k. The rest were around $400k to $450k. All the chatterati were like, “who would pay that????” Lol. We chattered about a half a dozen of these- all with the same floor plan.
Those buyers had the last laugh because they are re-selling over $600k up to as much as $800k that I’ve seen over the years (depended on neighborhood and how much it has appreciated, obviously.)
“Jenny, yeah but you don’t have to pay for private school.”
Can we just admit that Oak Park is no longer “middle class” and hasn’t been for a long time (a decade or more) so the middle class is priced out now other than owning a condo and maybe a townhouse? If you want a SFH you go to Forest Park, but even that may be too pricey, or you go to Austin.
The upper middle class, college educated homebuyers in Oak Park are all like, “who would buy in Austin?” And they all assume you’d do private. Maybe the Austin parents are doing Catholic schools, which isn’t that expensive.
People on this blog used to say the same thing about Galewood, which also borders Oak Park. It doesn’t have Oak Park schools either but the bungalows are $500k+ now. Why buy there?
“I was saying that someone looking at LP aint going to move to Bronzeville and you stated that they would. Jebus, are you drunk already?”
That’s actually NOT what you said. And you have no idea where they might move in order to get the townhouse or SFH they want. Absolutely none.
How do I know that? Because in the 2002-2007 boom years PLENTY of GenXers who couldn’t afford Lakeview and Lincoln Park took a look at all the new construction in the South Loop and Printers Row and decided, “hey, I get more for my money there. The prices are lower and I can afford that.” And that’s where they bought.
Renting in the South Loop now and looking around to buy? Some probably already shop at the Mariano’s in Bronzeville so why not buy there? Also, there are still plenty of those living in Lakeview and LP who are also buying in the South Loop for the same reasons as before: you get more for your money. Are those Lakeview people moving to Bronzeville? I don’t know. Send a question to Dennis Rodkin at Crain’s and ask him to do a story on it.
Do I think someone who is living in Lakeview is going to say, “hey, let’s buy a house in Austin”? No unless they grew up there or near there in Oak Park, Forest Park, Berwyn etc.
Again, you’re really clueless JohnnyU about what is happening in the city in 2023 and what are popular neighborhoods. You haven’t lived in Chicago (ever?) or for decades and your “opinion” is formulated solely on your own past experiences which I’m assuming were the 1980s and maybe the 90s?
That city no longer exists.
“Yeah – no one is giving up a 3% rate and prices for existing properties havent hit an equilibrium point for the HMAM’ers. Ive stated this plenty of times and you’ve disagreed”
Huh? Millennials are mostly first-time buyers unless you’re talking about the 42 year olds. If it’s them, they have owned a decade, bought low and have plenty of equity. They aren’t “giving up” anything.
@Sabrina,
There is a world of difference between Austin and Forest Park. You could also move to Berwyn. They are much better values for $600k.
There are some ok pockets in Austin, but to keep it 100, it is sh!thole. You’d be taking a huge risk and there is literally nothing indicating Austin is going to be gentrifying anytime soon. Austin ain’t Pilsen. Might as well move to O’block or Englewood.
The mistake I think people make is thinking, oh it is just five blocks from Oak Park. That may be true, but when those gun shots go off at night, it is going to seem a lot farther. That house isn’t too far from where there was that wild shoot out caught on video that Kim Foxx didn’t file charges.
“There is a world of difference between Austin and Forest Park. You could also move to Berwyn. They are much better values for $600k.”
Yet, someone IS buying that house. Go figure Russ.
Doesn’t the possible new mayor live in that neighborhood?
Sabrina,
December 2000 was the second-snowiest December in Chicago history with around 40 inches in that month alone! I still remember what a beautiful winter wonderland it looked like in Lincoln Park that month. It was also among the coldest Decembers on record here. So your mystery is solved.
“December 2000 was the second-snowiest December in Chicago history with around 40 inches in that month alone! I still remember what a beautiful winter wonderland it looked like in Lincoln Park that month. It was also among the coldest Decembers on record here. So your mystery is solved.”
OMG. Thanks for checking on it Dan #2. That’s so wild that it WAS the weather that caused that huge plunge in the sales in February of the next year. No one wanted (or could) go out to look at properties with 40 inches of snow (that’s as much as we get in a year!). They all said “forget it.”
Lol.
And that was before you could look at listings online. You had to go out and actually see the property.
The magnet schools seem pretty good from what my friends’ kids have told me. I was surprised and skeptical that my friends took a chance on CPS, but as the kids have described it, the schools sound good.
Apparently, if you live in a poor neighborhood, you’re given a boost to get into the magnet schools. Friend’s daughter just got into a selective enrollment high school and said that North Side was only taking kids with perfect test scores if they were in the more wealthy areas, but she got into a different school instead and is happy. I imagine that Austin is probably in a low socioeconomic area and the kids there would get a boost into the best schools if they can get a reasonable score on the standardized test.
“No one wanted (or could) go out to look at properties with 40 inches of snow (that’s as much as we get in a year!). They all said “forget it.”
Now I remember. I had just moved back here and had a van that I wanted to sell. It was parked on the street and got buried in snow. I just left it there for a couple of months until the snow melted.
Yeah, beautiful winter wonderland.
“people who were in that neighborhood took it upon themselves to improve the local school so that’s how we got Nettlehorst”
Was Nettlehorst really so bad prior to the bust?
I grew up around the block from Nettlehorst in the 70’s and it had a bad rep at the time. Most of the kids there weren’t from the neighborhood, based on my recollections. They were bused in. My parents didn’t even consider it for my brother and me.
Hate to be negative about Austin because I want it to get better, but I think it led the city in murders last year.
According to my data they were the 14th worse community area in terms of murders per 100K population. That’s pretty bad.
Good point, Gary. I should have checked per capita, not overall.
I was busy overnight with the election so there won’t be a new post today.
The low inventory is making it really hard to run this site again. I’m sorry about the constant posts in high rises but that’s mostly what is on the market right now. Thankfully, there have been a few fun vintage units recently.
Maybe I’ll be able to find something in the AM to put up fast. Let’s see.
The low inventory is making it really hard to run this site again.
It is super-dead out there… This place came up in my feed over the weekend and I was going to suggest it for a chatter, but it was already under contract by Monday:
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/629-W-Buckingham-Pl-60657/unit-1G/home/13376011
I thought it was interesting because it’s a REALLY nice garden unit and I was wondering if it was over-improved and wouldn’t sell.
how about this one trying to trade hands in 2 years with a 25% return. Pricey even after a few cosmetic updates.
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2023-W-Crystal-St-60622/home/14108046
“I thought it was interesting because it’s a REALLY nice garden unit and I was wondering if it was over-improved and wouldn’t sell.”
Really nice unit Madeline. It has it all too: laundry and parking with a lot of space and good light, even though it’s a garden unit.
Things are selling fast.
“how about this one trying to trade hands in 2 years with a 25% return. Pricey even after a few cosmetic updates.”
Good catch Marco. If it stays on the market over the holiday weekend, I’ll keep it on my radar to cover it.
Prices probably did rise in WP during the pandemic but what have the higher mortgage rates done to this market above $1 million?
“what have the higher mortgage rates done to this market above $1 million?”
both of these Bucktown homes just went under contract in a few days.
this one had multiple offers…
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1643-N-Winchester-Ave-60622/home/13355218
also, 2323 W Medill
“both of these Bucktown homes just went under contract in a few days.
this one had multiple offers…
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1643-N-Winchester-Ave-60622/home/13355218
also, 2323 W Medill”
———————————————
1643 North Winchester isn’t Bucktown.
” isn’t Bucktown.”
getting old. most people who live here now consider Bucktown North of North. doesn’t matter what you think anymore.
“getting old. most people who live here now consider Bucktown North of North. doesn’t matter what you think anymore.”
——————————–
Irrelevant. Historical boundaries don’t change simply because you click your heels three times, or shills find them inconvenient. What’s getting old is people trying to do so.
“Historical boundaries don’t change simply because you click your heels three times, or shills find them inconvenient.”
Did you ever provide any historical documentation of this belief? I’m kinda old so my memory isn’t very good.
Go to the Tribune’s or Sun-Time’s morgue and pull the real estate sections for the 1980s – mid-90s (mid-90s is when Bucktown got hot enough for the shills and real estate agents to start trying to misrepresent boundaries). See where the Bucktown properties are located.
Also: https://rpwrhs.org/w/index.php?title=Bucktown
“Bucktown’s original boundaries were Fullerton Avenue, Damen Avenue (f/k/a Robey Street), Armitage Avenue and Western Avenue. ”
———————
Since shills and wanna-bes who couldn’t afford to buy in the area don’t get to dilute/change the definitions, any claim that Bucktown goes South of Armitage is a lie.
We’ve had this conversation before, Gary, many years ago. I’m sure Sabrina could dig up the original postings if she wanted to waste her time.
You are correct. We should probably be using the 1837 map of Chicago also. http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/53.html
I get so tired of johnc harping, endlessly, on the boundaries of Bucktown. Get into this century. Things change. And who cares if it’s real estate agents who have contributed to the naming of a neighborhood?
My grandmother grew up in Bucktown nearly a century ago. She would not recognize it today.
I’m busy this weekend with the holiday so there won’t be a post today or Monday. There’s more coming on the market now so hopefully we’ll have some interesting properties in the next few weeks.
Temperatures in the 80s next week should give an extra boost to the housing market. If you’ve got a property with a lot of outdoor space, now is the time to be listing.
“You are correct. We should probably be using the 1837 map of Chicago also. http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/53.html”
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I’m down with that, and if you can get the legislature and city council to agree to laws changing Bucktown’s boundaries, I would have to accept that too (grudgingly).
But I won’t accept r.e. agents and self-appointed shills trying to flog their wares making boundary decisions.
As the apocryphal story about Abraham Lincoln put it: “Lincoln once asked Secretary of War William H. Seward how many legs a sheep would have if you called his tail a leg. Seward sputtered, finally answered five. “Oh, no”, Lincoln replied. “Calling a sheep’s tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. He’d only have four.”
Calling Bucktown’s southern boundary to be North Avenue doesn’t make it North Avenue. It’s still Armitage.
“My grandmother grew up in Bucktown nearly a century ago. She would not recognize it today.”
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She would know it ended at Armitage, even if the buildings were different.
Isn’t Wicker Park now perceived as “better” than Bucktown? So wouldn’t “shills” be more incented to call the area between Armitage and North Wicker Park?
“Isn’t Wicker Park now perceived as “better” than Bucktown? So wouldn’t “shills” be more incented to call the area between Armitage and North Wicker Park?”
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Precisely my point. A boundary isn’t a boundary if it changes with the wind.
So unless Sabrina, Gary, and all the Bucktown uber alles boosters have some objective measure by which neighborhoods expand or shrink (woke up in the Gold Coast, went to bed that night in Lincoln Park), saying stuff like “the neighborhood changed” is simply crap.
JohnC,
I think you missed Madeline’s point. If someone were really trying to shill the area between Armitage and North Ave they would agree with you.
Also, go back and reread the article you linked to and note what ARE the boundaries vs. what WERE the boundaries.
“Also, go back and reread the article you linked to and note what ARE the boundaries vs. what WERE the boundaries.”
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I did read it, Gary, and you note that there is nothing in it about how or when the boundaries of Bucktown supposedly shifted. I lived in the real Bucktown (North of Armitage, South of Fullerton, between Western and Damen) in the 80s and early 90s. Everyone was firm: Bucktown ended at Armitage, desperate r.e. agents to the contrary. Even the real estate ads didn’t list South of Armitage as Bucktown until the shills took over and tried to cash in by exploiting the ignorant.
I remember one r.e. shill in the ’90s calling a place West of Western Avenue as being in “West Bucktown.” If you look at the old postings on this site, you’ll see that even Sabrina got a chuckle out of that one.
R.E. agents and wanna-bes do not get to change boundaries.
As for Madeline’s point, give it time. The move to “expand” Bucktown’s boundaries didn’t occur in one day. If the superior desirability of Wicker Park persists, however, look for the shills to say that Wicker Park goes up to Armitage.
The types of buildings or their value have nothing to do with it, regardless of how many times Sabrina says “the neighborhood changed.”
If boundaries are going to change, then there has to be some reasonably objective criteria. Otherwise you wake up in the Gold Coast and go to bed in Lincoln Park simply because some semi-literate twit with a double major in basket weaving and marketing is trying to increase his commission when shifting his wares. Life doesn’t work that way.
And you can look at the size of the neighborhoods, Gary. The half mile by half mile size of Bucktown is consistent with that of other neighborhoods. The r.e. sills and agents have tried to turn it into a monstrosity.
So take it from one who lived there: Bucktown ended, and ends, at Armitage. You’ll never find someone who lived within the confines of those 4 roads who’ll say different.
The burden of economic pain will not stay as concentrated in certain sectors as it is now (ie: RE). Commercial RE is obviously an entirely different story than residential going forward it may be a tale of two markets or residential may not go down as much or as fast.
The Fed will be forced to pause and likely reduce rates in the future which the bond markets are already pricing in. Still, even with this, and even if they paused QT, there is expected to be significant headwinds on the US economy going forward as rates will not go down fast and regional banks will be far less reluctant to lend given their balance sheet impairments.
One major international SiFi investment bank just had to have a Bear Stearns style rescue. I don’t see rates staying this high for too much longer.
Just posted my monthly update: https://lucidrealty.com/chicago-real-estate-market-update-home-sales-back-to-normal/
Sales were down 23.3% (IAR will say 24.9%) but sales are actually back to historic norms. Check out the graph. Condos and townhomes fell more than SFHs.
Inventory still very low so market times are reasonable.
“You’ll never find someone who lived within the confines of those 4 roads who’ll say different.”
So, with this, it is made clear that you’re just trolling, and always have been nothing more than a boring troll on the point.
Doesn’t make the point less true. I don’t care what other neighborhoods boundaries are, I stick with Bucktown. I won’t let R.E. agents try to expand other ‘hoods either, though, so Sabrina can leave Bronzeville alone.
“i MaY bE a TrOlLlL, bUt i Am StIlL rIgHt, GoDdAmMiT!”
“So, with this, it is made clear that you’re just trolling, and always have been nothing more than a boring troll on the point.”
Right?
“I lived there in 1975 and it has to stay just as it was when I lived there nearly 50 years ago.”
Lol.
“The Fed will be forced to pause and likely reduce rates in the future which the bond markets are already pricing in.”
Yawn. Tell us something we don’t know Bob. What’d you do? Read the WSJ today and decide to comment on this blog parroting what they keep saying?
Fed has two mandates: employment and inflation. You all think they’re going to be cutting if inflation remains over 4%? Middle class under WAY too much pressure. Even as it is, wages are now rising at a lower rate than inflation. Workers are losing pace against inflation every month the Fed doesn’t get it down.
“I lived in the real Bucktown (North of Armitage, South of Fullerton, between Western and Damen) in the 80s and early 90s.”
OMG. Can you even imagine legitimately wasting your time posting this nonsense on a real estate blog every time a property is mentioned in Bucktown simply because you lived in that neighborhood over 30 years ago?
“So unless Sabrina, Gary, and all the Bucktown uber alles boosters have some objective measure by which neighborhoods expand or shrink (woke up in the Gold Coast, went to bed that night in Lincoln Park), saying stuff like “the neighborhood changed” is simply crap.”
Gold Coast certainly HAS changed its boundaries.
This is where you get “near north side” because no one knows if old cabrini is in the Gold Coast anymore or if, perhaps, it’s part of River North.
Lol.
And don’t get me started on East Lake Shore Drive. It’s certainly Gold Coast, but maybe Streeterville.
“But I won’t accept r.e. agents and self-appointed shills trying to flog their wares making boundary decisions.”
What a waste of time. Thank goodness johnc doesn’t live in the city of Chicago, work in the real estate industry and has absolutely no say in what happens with neighborhood boundaries in Bucktown, nor any other neighborhood.
Lol.
He just won’t accept it! Grrr…get off my lawn!
“I won’t let R.E. agents try to expand other ‘hoods either, though, so Sabrina can leave Bronzeville alone.”
As if johnc has ANY concept of Bronzeville. Lol.
“Sales were down 23.3% (IAR will say 24.9%) but sales are actually back to historic norms. Check out the graph. Condos and townhomes fell more than SFHs.”
Thanks for the update Gary. I wonder what would be happening if we actually had inventory? Many homes selling extremely fast.
Agree that the frenzy of the last two years is over and more “normal” conditions have returned.
“As if johnc has ANY concept of Bronzeville. Lol.”
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You’re right, I don’t, which is why I leave the Bronzeville’s boundaries to the consensus of the residents of Bronzeville before the real estate agents and the shills did their work. I wouldn’t be so presumptuous.
Got a problem with that?
“the consensus of the residents of”
The current community orgnization uses North as the south boundary, and the river as the east:
https://www.bucktown.org/the-bco
But a troll who has been gone for 3 decades knows better.
“The current community orgnization uses North as the south boundary, and the river as the east:
https://www.bucktown.org/the-bco”
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If you look at who has been leading/active in the BCO for the past almost 30 years you’ll see it was taken over by RE agents and shills. Why? trying to give their grasping an aura of legitimacy.
Apology accepted.
And here’s from the BCO website (which just goes to show that yes, I do know better). Long story short — I’m not the one distorting things:
https://www.bucktown.org/history
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Where exactly is Bucktown?
Those familiar with local history will argue that the boundaries correspond to the original boundaries of Holstein. Time does have a way, however, of distorting usage, and others will contend that Bucktown encompasses a much larger area. . . . .
. . . Settling in and around Jefferson Township, some chose an area bounded by Fullerton, Damen, Armitage and Western, which later came to be known as Holstein.
“If you look at who has been leading/active in the BCO for the past almost 30 years you’ll see it was taken over by RE agents and shills. Why? trying to give their grasping an aura of legitimacy.”
You are hilarious johnc. If we were talking about “West Bucktown” which some realtors DO use in listings, then I could understand your argument. But the area you claim isn’t in Bucktown, but is in Wicker Park, is just as popular and gentrified as Bucktown, if not more. Wicker Park was always known as the artsy area though so I guess if realtors didn’t want to include something in Wicker Park because it wasn’t artsy then that would be their “agenda.” ???
But I don’t get it.
It’s just another sign that you are living in an era that is 30 years ago. Get into 2023. Things change. Both WP and Bucktown sucked 30 years ago. My grandmother left that area in the 1940s for North Center. And by 1975, was living in the suburbs.
“ou are hilarious johnc. If we were talking about “West Bucktown” which some realtors DO use in listings, then I could understand your argument. But the area you claim isn’t in Bucktown, but is in Wicker Park, is just as popular and gentrified as Bucktown, if not more. Wicker Park was always known as the artsy area though so I guess if realtors didn’t want to include something in Wicker Park because it wasn’t artsy then that would be their “agenda.” ???
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Actually, if you look at my old postings on the subject, I noted that there was a gap between Bucktown and Wicker Park — an area that wasn’t either neighborhood. If I remember correctly, residents of the real Bucktown (North of Armitage) considered no-man’s-land to be between Armitage and Wabansia. The precise northern boundary of Wicker Park didn’t matter — it wasn’t Bucktown.
Popularity and gentrification are irrelevant to what the boundaries are. Only some shill trying to cash in would try to change boundaries. The shill’s “agenda” was/is to make money. Bucktown was “hotter” than Wicker Park for a long time, so the shills and agents and wanna-bes (those would couldn’t afford living in the real McCoy) took it upon their self-interested selves to shift Bucktown’s boundaries.
As even the BCO has admitted: Those familiar with local history say Bucktown stops on the northern edge of Armitage. The ignorant (and the shills) distort and lie, and push Bucktown down to North Avenue.
Sing and dance all you want, Sabrina, but claiming Bucktown goes South of Armitage is, as Trump would say, “alternative facts.”
“i MaY bE a TrOlLlL, bUt i Am StIlL rIgHt, GoDdAmMiT!”
““i MaY bE a TrOlLlL, bUt i Am StIlL rIgHt, GoDdAmMiT!””
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Sez the alternative facts whiner.
It’s like Foghorn Leghorn “defending” the “pride” of Bucktown.
“As senior rooster ’round here, it’s my duty, and my pleasure, to instruct junior roosters in the ancient art of Bucktown Boundaries”
“It’s like Foghorn Leghorn “defending” the “pride” of Bucktown.”
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You must be the chicken hawk?!
By the way, there’s no “art” to it. Bucktown’s boundaries areFullerton, Damen, Armitage, and Western.