Market Conditions: Short Sales Are Everywhere…Even in Lake Forest
According to Crain’s, the two most expensive home sales in Lake Forest in 2010 were both short sales.
Even though these sales were in Lake Forest, and not Chicago, since we’ve discussed the North Shore several times lately I thought I’d put it out there for discussion especially as some posters on Crib Chatter seem to believe that the rich aren’t having the same financial problems as everyone else.
And I thought the rich only bought with cash!
Before the economy crashed, the massive homes on Westminster and Lake roads would’ve sold for upward of $7 million, observers say.
But prices in the suburb have fallen, leading more underwater homeowners to consider a short sale, says Pat Purcell, a sales agent in the Lake Forest East office of Koenig & Strey Real Living, who wasn’t involved in either property.
“People are getting tired of holding onto these homes,” he says.
Gerald and Gail Miller paid just under $3.4 million in October 1999 for the 13,000-square-foot mansion on Westminster Road, according to property records. It couldn’t be determined how much the couple owed on the home, but people familiar with the transaction confirmed it was a short sale.
The Millers listed the French Normandy-style mansion for $5.9 million in July, a year after J. P. Morgan Chase & Co. filed a foreclosure complaint against the couple to collect a loan originally issued in October 2005 for $4.6-million loan.
Less than a year later, the mansion, with seven bedrooms and six bathrooms, sold for $5.2 million, about 13% less than the loan amount.
Mr. Lederer, who is best known for selling the Web site Art.com to Getty Images Inc. in 1999 for $115 million, didn’t return a message.
Biggest 2010 deals in Lake Forest were short sales [Crain’s Chicago Business, Andrew Schroedter, February 15, 2011]
Can we assume Mr Lederer is not for want of capital but is strategically defaulting? But that’s okay because he’s rich. If this were a 2/2 in Rogers Park then its a moral issue.
If you look at a town like Oak Brook the market is so dead you can’t even get a read on data like this. Only 6 SFHs have sold above $1 MM in the last 6 months but 71 are on the market. 1 of those 6 was a short sale. BTW, properties listed above $1 MM is not an apples to apples comparison because many of those will close below $1 MM but you get the idea.
Burr Ridge SFHs (apples and apples): 83 SFHs on market above $1 MM. Last 6 months 13 listed above $1 MM sold. One of those was a short sale. But I don’t know that I would go so far as to say that properties are selling at half of what they were before.
Clearly you do not know the same cash only buyers that I know. These were not great deals to begin with. I am on the MLS everyday and there are not that amazing deals out there. Believe me the market has bottomed and you will see prices increase. As I drive around the city in my Lambo, I am witnesses this recovery first hand. All the data supports my conclusion (just don’t ask me where I got it).
“If you look at a town like Oak Brook the market is so dead you can’t even get a read on data like this”
the only data you need for Oak Brook is “King wanted.com”,
Oak brook and Downers Groove are just a horrible waste of resources.
is the developer of that castle public? id love to short that stock. i do actually like downers grove though, i think it is a nice burb.
That’s hysterical. I never saw that. Yeah, tons of homes there are just over the top. Very “personalized”. The other problem is that in Oak Brook you have a lot of older homes that were someone’s dream home 25 years ago and now they are so dated that everyone wants to tear them down.
I saw a home in Burr Ridge on Sunday that was something else. Can’t say any more.
“i do actually like downers grove though, i think it is a nice burb”
i retract DG
sorry i was calling downers grove as i typed that, funny how the brain works.
Gary,
nice summary of Oak brook, it on-pointe.
OK – here we go again. So many things wrong with this thread:
1. Gary – irresponsible and inaccurate statements on some random blog will hurt your credibility as a realtor/broker. Be very careful. You misinterpret the data regarding oak brook because you don’t live or work here. Houses in oak brook are not selling because sellers refuse to budge on price. Sellers are refusing to budge on price because they don’t really need to sell (ie they are loaded). Oak Brook residents tend to be older and most of them have their houses paid off (or have significant equity in their homes). They are NOT desperate to sell and will wait out the market.
2. A lot of Lake Forest is NEW money (Riz where are you). A know a shitload of people in their 30s and early 40s who over-extended themselves in the past 10 years to buy in Lake Forest (again, think someone like Riz). Now, they are in trouble and NEED to sell. That is why you will see more and more short sales in Lake Forest. Prices WILL be lowered there because these people NEED to sell.
Again -in THIS market, when you start seeing places sell it is not necessarily because the area is HOT – it is because the sellers are desperate and are cutting their prices. These concepts are not that hard to understand but for some reason even “seasoned professionals” can’t understand them.
PS Groove – don’t worry about oak brook – I can guarantee you that it wouldn’t be a good or even acceptable fit on either end.
clio, live by your own words brother!!!
you shouldnt even post about lake forest as you dont live or work there so you opinions are not valid
“You misinterpret the data regarding oak brook because you don’t live or work here.”
“A lot of Lake Forest is NEW money……That is why you will see more and more short sales in Lake Forest. Prices WILL be lowered there because these people NEED to sell. “
Gary, why did you bring up Oak Brook? I thought this thread was about Lake Forest. Did something bad happen to you in oak brook? Does your wife want to move here but you can’t afford it? Were you trying to get a job here, but they just laughed at you? – and why would you post such idiotic things about a town you know nothing about. It would be like me talking on a healthcare website about pediatric health. Very very irresponsible (I am targeting you because you are a known “professional” in the field and may have more credibility with readers as opposed to most CCers whose background we don’t know). Be careful with what you post. While your individual statements might be accurate, the tone and implications are inaccurate and would not be looked at by the board in a very very unfavorable light – I promise you that.
“Can we assume Mr Lederer is not for want of capital but is strategically defaulting?”
According to another Crain’s article from a few months ago, the IRS has a lien filed against him for back taxes dating back to 2000 for $12 million.
Groove, first of all, I am not “your brother”.
Second of all, I know lake forest very well since many (actually most) of my married friends live there (for some reason). On the other hand, from your many posts, I am positive that YOU are evtremely unlikely to know anybody or have any close contact with anyone who lives inOak Brook.
LOL!
Lake Forest isn’t NEW money. It’s the oldest of the old. That’s why they can’t sell. Houses are overpriced for the next generation and many of them, while lovely and vintage, need total gut rehabs for “modern” living.
Even in the upper bracket, buyers don’t want to buy a home they have to totally renovate (unless they get it for extremely cheap- and even then many balk.) That is why the renovator/flippers I feature here are so successful. Anyone could have bought the house for $90k and fixed it up themselves. But they don’t. But they WILL buy it from the renovator for $400k as long as it’s all new inside.
How many years of inventory are they saying is in Lake Forest now? (from one of the older articles)? Something like 3 or 4 years, right?
Eventually- people want to sell. They’re not getting any younger. They (or their estate- if it’s an estate sale) want to move on.
Here’s the 2009 Crain’s article on Mr. Lederer.
http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/article/20090805/CRED03/200035025/tax-liens-foreclosure-suit-hit-art-com-founder#axzz1DzskdBeW
“Groove, first of all, I am not “your brother”.”
-ouch, i thought we were homies?
“from your many posts, I am positive that YOU are evtremely unlikely to know anybody or have any close contact with anyone who lives inOak Brook.”
-Does oak brook terrace count?
“Second of all, I know lake forest very well since many (actually most) of my married friends live there ”
-ok if we go by those rules then i am heavily qualified to speak about hinsdale.
Gary, don’t listen to Clio. You are one of the most informative and helpful
people on this blog along with HD groove and bob.
As soon as sellers become realistic with their pricing, many of the sidelined buyers like myself will jump at a deal.
“I saw a home in Burr Ridge on Sunday that was something else. Can’t say any more.”
Was it that custom Taj Mahal house that has been for sale for awhile?
“Lake Forest isn’t NEW money. It’s the oldest of the old. That’s why they can’t sell. Houses are overpriced for the next generation and many of them, while lovely and vintage, need total gut rehabs for “modern” living”
Sabrina, take a look at the MLS listings in Lake forest before you post (I am not being disrespectful – but you have to be honest and post the truth). Most of the houses for sale are newer (built in the past 5-15 years) and are not the old mansions of yesteryear that most people equate lake forest with. Don’t take my word for it, look for yourself.
I was scrolling through MLS yesterday, and was stunned by the number of “executive” houses for sale in Wilmette, which once was the defacto default suburb-of-choice for upper-middle-income (and higher) households seeking great schools, solid and prestige community, and attractive housing stock (west Wilmette excluded). Wilmette was the #1 conservative “smart” choice for well-heeled homebuyers at that “executive” price-point. So much inventory now, still expensively priced but mostly in move-in condition, that it makes your head spin. There just aren’t enough $250,000+ annual income households to support the enormous inventory of $800,000+ homes in metro Chicago’s resale marketplace.
OK Gary, let me post some numbers that you conveniently overlooked regarding Lake Forest and Oak Brook.
The number of pending sales in Oak Brook over 1 million: 6 of 114 homes for sale (5.3%)
The number of pending sales in Lake Forest over 1 million: 16 of 282 homes for sale (5.7%).
So if you say the oak brook market is dead, you have to say the lake forest market is also dead.
Remember gary – you need to put the number of sales in context with the number of houses available. That denominator is VERY VERY important when doing any type of analysis.
“A lot of Lake Forest is NEW money (Riz where are you). A know a shitload of people in their 30s and early 40s who over-extended themselves in the past 10 years to buy in Lake Forest (again, think someone like Riz). Now, they are in trouble and NEED to sell. That is why you will see more and more short sales in Lake Forest. Prices WILL be lowered there because these people NEED to sell. ”
Clio – I’m so tired of your pro-oakbrook BS. why do you keep dragging me into your stupid arguments about oakbrook? I’m not new money and i’m not over extended. You know what screams ‘new money’? A lambo gallardo. you know who drives those? Soulja Boy and Lil bow wow – even Justin Bieber has one. You know what else screams ‘new money’ – oakbrook. Your arguments about lake forest being new money are idiotic and false. Any wealthy person in this city will laugh in your face if you say that to them. Any knowledgable realtor will do the same. So stop being the posterchild for your suburb and stop talking about me, I’m not trying to compete with a 50 year old that drives a 18 year old rapper-mobile, and When ( and i will ) I purchase a property, oakbrook is the last place i’ll go, and i’m not planning on over extending, or even having a mortgage. As I’ve mentioned, my family owns property in midwest club, and i am thoroughly unimpressed with your Zip code.
“Does your wife want to move here but you can’t afford it? Were you trying to get a job here, but they just laughed at you? – and why would you post such idiotic things about a town you know nothing about.”
Why are you such a craphead dude? He stated a fact about your suburb and you make personal attacks? unprofessional is an understatement.
Riz – lighten up – i only mentioned you for laughs (because of our ridiculous back-and-forth on a previous thread). I actually don’t care about where anybody lives and don’t care about the ob vs lf debate at all. I just don’t like mis-information being spewed as truth (not you – but others).
Clio, laughs are fine, but so many threads here degenerate into personal attacks , it gets old. I used to really like posting here but grow tired of the constant hating on one anther.
Wait a minute – I am the “craphead”? Did you take a look at what you just posted about me? OK – this is getting embarrassing…
Many homesellers of $600,000+ homes are nearly retired baby-boomers looking to unload their family-sized homes, to recapture some retirement cash and downsize. For many of these sellers, that acrued home equity is a big chunk of their net worth and potential “retirement” savings, per NYT articles regarding baby-boomers’ comparitive lack of adequate retirement planning. (Most baby-boomers, even white-collar workers, are apparently ill-prepared for long-term retirement years.) On the other hand, demographically speaking, there are far fewer qualified buyers to purchase those “executive” homes, which adds more pressure to a depressed housing market already facing “shadow inventory” of lender-owned and pending-foreclosure homes. I don’t see a “bright shiny” future for housing market.
And yes, I know that top 2% of housing market is probably healthy as can be.
You should be embaressed. Significant others and personal attacks don’t have a place here, in my opinion. That is being a craphead clio – he never said anything about you.
“Houses in oak brook are not selling because sellers refuse to budge on price. Sellers are refusing to budge on price because they don’t really need to sell (ie they are loaded). Oak Brook residents tend to be older and most of them have their houses paid off (or have significant equity in their homes). They are NOT desperate to sell and will wait out the market.”
Gotta live somewhere… If they wait out the market they will also be paying more for the next place they buy. So if they have their houses paid off or have significant equity then it is a wash and that would be a reason to sell and buy the place they want to live, not a reason to sit tight.
I’ve been looking at Wilmette too (Lake Forest is just too far of a commute). While there are some apparent deals in Wilmette (such as http://www.redfin.com/IL/Wilmette/845-Sheridan-Rd-60091/home/13772887 which went under contract about 11 days after its most recent listing), a lot of the places seem overpriced to me. On the flip side, the inventory in Wilmette apparently is not that high, http://activerain.com/blogsview/1947850/october-2010-market-statistics-winnetka-wilmette-kenilworth-glencoe-northfield.
Riz – again, I am only bringing this up to set the record straight – but there is a subtlety that you are missing. Sabrina’s original post for this thread did not mention Oak Brook AT ALL. Gary brought it up because of me – it absolutely was 100% directed at me (nobody else on this site ever talks about Oak Brook but me). So, kid, you have to be able to read between the lines. Not everything is as concrete as you think.
Clio,
“Groove, first of all, I am not “your brother”.”
-ouch, i thought we were homies?
“from your many posts, I am positive that YOU are evtremely unlikely to know anybody or have any close contact with anyone who lives inOak Brook.”
-Does oak brook terrace count?
“Second of all, I know lake forest very well since many (actually most) of my married friends live there ”
-ok if we go by those rules then i am heavily qualified to speak about hinsdale
“that would be a reason to sell and buy the place they want to live, not a reason to sit tight.”
And also they should want to do the transactions at a lower price rather than a higher price. Transaction costs to sell and then buy add up to about 8% or so, maybe more. So if they make their move today at $1MM instead of “waiting it out” and making their move at $1.25MM, they would save about $20,000 in transaction costs.
“Gary brought it up because of me – it absolutely was 100% directed at me”
You’re really jumping to conclusions here. Gary’s post only said that volume at the high end is too low to make conclusions. The data is more “noise” than “trend”. He chose Oak Brook but probably could have chosen anywhere. In fact, he came right back with Burr Ridge. So chill out, no one is attacking you.
DC – I agree with you… to some extent – but look at it from a different perspective.
For example, I have a close neighbor that is selling their house. They are in their 60s, their house is paid off and they have already bought and moved to a new place. The expenses related to their house for sale includes taxes (18k and landscapers 6k) for a total of 24k/year of upkeep. They originally listed for 4.5 million (3 years ago) and have come down to 2.89 million. To them, why would they reduce more? They would rather pay the 24k for the next 5 years (120k) rather than reduce their asking price the same amount (which likely would have no effect on buyer’s interest).
Another neighbor across the street is in a similar situation (except they still live in their house). The listed in 2005 for 5 million and have been sitting at 2.99 million for the past 3 years. Why would they lower their price when their expenses are so low and they can wait it out?
See – when you look at the actual numbers, waiting it out for many people with very expensive homes (that are paid off) makes a LOT of sense.
clio,
how can anyone respect your opinion when you drive the same car as *Justin Bieber!!!!!!!!
Your first example makes sense. In the case that someone has already bought their next home and is just waiting to sell their old one, then it makes sense to wait it out if they believe the market will recover. But at that point they are just a speculator/investor. If they believe homes are currently very undervalued and will recover substantially, they might as well buy up as many places as they can in the area and bet on price increases.
Your second example doesn’t make sense unless they buy their next home now and then wait it out to sell their current home (basically if they become like the first example).
But for anyone who is selling their home and buying their next home around the same time, it makes no sense to wait for the recovery if they have the means (aka the equity) to move now. I suspect 90% of sellers/buyers are in this position (selling and buying at the same time), although this percentage is probably lower at the high-end since more of these people own multiple properties.
“Your arguments about lake forest being new money are idiotic and false. ”
Riz, take a look at what is for sale in lake forest – the VAST majority of the houses for sale were built in the last 15 years -that is NOT new money.
Gary, you want to compare LF and OB? How about the price per sq ft of land. It is much higher in Oak Brook when compared to LF. See – when you look, you can make a point for just about anything.
“how can anyone respect your opinion when you drive the same car as *Justin Bieber!!!!!!!!?
I don’t care if people respect me on this site or not – I am just trying to be a crusader of the truth. Seriously, if something is the true, I won’t lie and try to deny it – but it is so hard to figure out what is true and what is false. It adds a layer of confusion that nobody needs or wants!!
“Sabrina, take a look at the MLS listings in Lake forest before you post (I am not being disrespectful – but you have to be honest and post the truth). Most of the houses for sale are newer (built in the past 5-15 years) and are not the old mansions of yesteryear that most people equate lake forest with. Don’t take my word for it, look for yourself.”
Out of almost 400 properties for sale only about 100 were built since 95. Good thing no one does take your word for it (or so I would hope).
“Out of almost 400 properties for sale only about 100 were built since 95. Good thing no one does take your word for it (or so I would hope).”
Thanks – i wasn’t sure where to look for that info. It didn’t make sense to me at all since I have a lot of family friends in lake forest and the north shore and most houses seemed older than 15 years of age. Also, we need to consider that people, *gasp*, may want to move into a newer home. We’ve changed our home in the past 10 years in our community.
Lake Forest is beautiful but too hoity toity. The collar counties are hot hot hot. My firm has clients who make lake forest type income yet live in the collar counties or far northwestern suburbs bordering the collar counties. Like we said above, who wants to buy out some boomer with an old outdated house with high taxes in an area that’s relatively inaccessible to the rest of the Chicagoland area?
Clio – why didn’t your neighbors have slashed the price a long time ago so they had cash to go long the stock market and ride the bull back up? They could be sitting on nearly that full initial asking price had they done that. I guess having a few million tied up in a depreciating asset for five years is sound financial planning for the Oak Brook “old money” types – oh well without dumb “old money” there wouldn’t be the opportunity for smart people to become those holding “new money.” Think of all the bull markets they’ll miss if they ride this RE bear out for another 5 years with no guarantee they’ll even get the $2.89mm they are currently asking.
Architect you are correct.
Somebody who likes the lake hd.
Can we assume Mr Lederer is not for want of capital but is strategically defaulting? But that’s okay because he’s rich. If this were a 2/2 in Rogers Park then its a moral issue.
Why did the bank agree to a short sell if he’s loaded. Illnois is a recourse state…they could get the balance. I have a problem with this. If they banks don’t go after the few who can actually pay then what is to stop everyone from strategically defaulting. I understand not proceeding against those with little assets, but come on….this can can pay up.
I have to admit, when I read this post and then article, the very first thing I thought of was that it validated clio’s position on the older threads!
Lies lies lies and misinformation.
Seriously, folks – I am working on the LF numbers right now – but I can assure you that there are only 282 homes for sale and a significant number are less than 15-20 years old. I am painstakingly going through each listing to prove my point.
Again, you can’t just put in numbers and assume that redfin or whatever crappy real estate web site is accurate – YOU HAVE TO DO THE NUMBERS YOURSELF!!!
Wait a minute – this is so funny – think about it: I write something and nobody believes it (regarding lake forest having a lot of new housing for sale). Bob2 says something else and everyone feels validated. NEITHER ONE OF US CITED ANY REFERENCES – you guys just pick and choose who to believe with no scientific reasoning behind your choice. See how psychological real estate really is?!!!!
clio, I think I speak for everyone here when I say
“you’re an out of touch dumbass who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, doesn’t know everything, and when someone calls you out on that, you go into temper tantrum mode like a toddler”
One of the challenges to lending in the upper bracket (multi-million dollar mortgages) is that very wealthy buyers often times view their mortgages as a business decision unlike Joe Average homeowner.
Very rich folks will let a property go into foreclosure or negotiate a short sale if the numbers don’t make sense even if they could personally take the hit financially. It isn’t like they have to worry about their FICO scores or their ability to buy a new home or get a credit card at Best Buy.
No place is immune, so is oak brook. I’ve followed oak brook for a while and we just bought there. The median p/sqft was about $175 in 1998, then roared up to $300+ in bubble years and now it came down to $200. Most of people paid their mortgage off? LOL. The lady sold our house still had $400K loan after 25 years.
“Again, you can’t just put in numbers and assume that redfin or whatever crappy real estate web site is accurate”
Redfin is a MLS interface for consumers. The numbers are the same, you have a better source than that? Note I said “properties”, that’s why it’s higher than your figure, but once you narrow it down to SFH the ratio of old to new is pretty similar.
MLS lists 263 not under contract SFHs for Lake Forest, out of those 67 were built after 1995. A few houses have no year listed, but not enough to skew the results significantly either way. Even if this isn’t entirely accurate, you said “most”, and that means at least half, and we’re very far from that.
Amusing that you are surprised that 15 years of properties are outnumbered by 100 years.
“Very rich folks will let a property go into foreclosure or negotiate a short sale if the numbers don’t make sense even if they could personally take the hit financially.”
I never understood this – how can you have money AND go into foreclosure? Don’t you have to declare bankruptcy or have bought the property through an LLC/trust?
“Gary – irresponsible and inaccurate statements on some random blog will hurt your credibility as a realtor/broker. Be very careful. You misinterpret the data regarding oak brook because you don’t live or work here.”
Uggghhhh!!!! Only have a few minutes to respond here.
There is nothing inaccurate in what I said. I’m just relating facts. I bring up Oakbrook and Burr Ridge because I am somewhat familiar with them and in a broader sense this thread is about the high end. More later in response to the personal attacks.
Sabrina, you must be thinking of Villa Taj http://blog.lucidrealty.com/2010/09/28/villa-taj-6501-county-line-burr-rdge/ No, actually it was something totally different that I will probably blog on soon but very politely since I actually toured it.
Bob 2 -isn’t there a warrant out for your arrest? See – anyone can post anything they want – it doesn’t mean it is true. I own a real estate company and in MY research, there are 168 houses over 1 million dollars in LF – of those 87 were built in the past 20 years. I admit I was wrong in saying “the vast majority” – but you can see that the number is over 50%.
I think the bigger point here is that data is so unreliable that you have to do your own research to figure out who is telling the truth and who is lying.
““you’re an out of touch dumbass who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, doesn’t know everything, and when someone calls you out on that, you go into temper tantrum mode like a toddler”
Sonies – you better watch out or I’ll have Riz get on your case about “personal attacks”
Dan, often times living in the NS is about insecurity. The address provides a sense of superficial sense of self-worth to the individual who stretches the budget to get the right NS address. I have very little interest living in a modest home among mansions as do most people but for some, the north shore address is part of the ideal. It is very beautiful up there but it’s not for everyone. Believe me when I tell you I know and know of plenty of people who with NS type money who choose to live elsewhere.
“Uggghhhh!!!!”
Exactly the feeling I had when I read your idiotic and inaccurate posts. Seriously, what an awful way to start out an otherwise beautiful day.
Any advice for a first time homebuyer with significant cash who wants to buy a short sale?
Again, I understand why wealth individuals will view their house as a business decision and let it go into foreclosure and/or attempt a short sale. My question is why would a bank agree to the short sell. Allow foreclosure and go after the balance of the loan. That is the point of a recourse state…he can pay. I understand why he wants out…I’m not debating the morality of it….But why on earth would the bank let him off?
“Dan, often times living in the NS is about insecurity”
Sorry, respectfully disagree. It’s more about safety and schooling than anything I feel, oh and parks, lots of parks. Compare where the best schools are (I dont know the exact data but I would imagine, HS wise) a good percentage of them are in the NS/NW burbs…
Also, consider the alternative – moving to the wealthy western burbs?
“Bob 2 -isn’t there a warrant out for your arrest? See – anyone can post anything they want – it doesn’t mean it is true. I own a real estate company and in MY research, there are 168 houses over 1 million dollars in LF – of those 87 were built in the past 20 years. I admit I was wrong in saying “the vast majority” – but you can see that the number is over 50%.”
You’re numbers are wrong, and that’s not even keeping in mind that you moved your goalpost from 5-15 years to 20 years and all houses to 1m+. Might wanna sharpen your trolling skills. Gets boring otherwise.
“Any advice for a first time homebuyer with significant cash who wants to buy a short sale?”
Avoid the hassle, find a REO (real estate owned, aka foreclosure)
In the NS you need to be east of GB road, otherwise you might as well be living in Northbrook or Glenview. There are plenty of N and NW burbs that have truly nice areas (think barrington, inverness); and lake county has plenty of wealthy areas (kildeer, long grove, etc), dupage county used to be one of the richest counties in the nation (before the wash DC metro area took over), and even teh south suburbs like orland have their richer areas. I feel like clio now – you would be truly amazed how many people out there have good money, great money and could easily live the NS lifestyle, but instead choose a more modest existence in nice but less….prestigious area.
“#A-Fed on February 16th, 2011 at 10:44 am
“Dan, often times living in the NS is about insecurity”
Sorry, respectfully disagree. It’s more about safety and schooling than anything I feel, oh and parks, lots of parks. Compare where the best schools are (I dont know the exact data but I would imagine, HS wise) a good percentage of them are in the NS/NW burbs…
Also, consider the alternative – moving to the wealthy western burbs?”
The North shore vs western suburbs debate is stupid. Most buyers are not that flexible that they could live wherever they want. Most need to live in certain areas for certain reasons (ie proximity to work, family, etc.). Within THOSE areas, they then have the choice of which specific suburb to live in.
In the western suburbs, there are not many choices for very nice homes (OB, Hinsdale, Burr ridge)
In the northern suburbs, there are many many choices (Kenilworth, Winnetka, Wilmette, LF, Northfield, Glencoe, East Highland Park, Mettawa, etc.).
So to compare OB to LF is silly. Compare OB to BR or Hinsdale. Compare LF to Kenilworth, winnetka, etc.
There is a big reason people prefer LAKE forest and the north SHORE.
Itcaffey, a lot of that is also BS – ask these people how many times they actually go on the lake or to the beach. Most people on the north SHORE or in LAKE forest don’t live on the lake, don’t have lake views, and don’t go on the lake/to the beach as much as they thought they would.
I dont have to ask them. I can just go to one of the private beaches on a nice day and see all the people.
Why would they allow you on their private beaches? Do you live in there? and if you don’t, how many others don’t live there but pretend to?
Soulja Boy off in this oh
Watch me crank it, watch me roll
Watch me crank dat, Soulja Boy
Then Superman dat oh!
Now I’ll have this going through my head the rest of the day, LOL.
I ride my bike along the lakeshore a lot in summer and I see them. Many many people. You should try that bike ride Clio. Takes the edge off a little.
“Exactly the feeling I had when I read your idiotic and inaccurate posts. Seriously, what an awful way to start out an otherwise beautiful day.”
seriously justin bieber, is all that need to be said.
My goodness, today is upside down day. I actually agree with a number of things clio has argued. This is a first. Clio is making sense and I’m sort of shocked that he and I are on the same page with a number of his comments.
I have the opposite view, not choosing the NS when you could afford it, based on thinking it’s “hoity, toity” or thinking it’s “snobbish” or whatever…..that’s insecurity.
“Dan, often times living in the NS is about insecurity”
That’s totally true. The problem with the lake as a shoreline, as compared with East Coast locales, is that Lake Michigan’s shoreline is horrifically linear. There are no curves, bays, inlets, islands, etc. If one was to compare areas like Marblehead, MA or CT or Long Island, one would see that waterfront is far more accessible there, and there’s ALOT more of it. Not to mention there’s something about salt water too that makes it more serious as a waterfront as compared to Lake Michigan, a big pond.
“Itcaffey, a lot of that is also BS – ask these people how many times they actually go on the lake or to the beach. Most people on the north SHORE or in LAKE forest don’t live on the lake, don’t have lake views, and don’t go on the lake/to the beach as much as they thought they would.”
Plenty of nice homes in Downers Grove, Wheaton, Naperville, Glen Ellyn off the top of my head. In fact, I think when most families are considering the western suburbs, they would NOT be thinking of Oak Brook or Burr Ridge, which have no real community feeling, no downtown, no library, no high school of their own. No family feeling, to me. But a great fortress for moneybags. Separate yourself from the more common folk who can’t appreciate your exquisite taste. Just had to respond when you slip in “your” western suburbs (where you have invested in real estate) and ignore the rest.
“In the western suburbs, there are not many choices for very nice homes (OB, Hinsdale, Burr ridge)”
Dan, maybe it’s a little insecurity, as in “I don’t feel that I could live up the NS lifestyle” but it’s also “jeez, I can’t stand any of the people living here with their NS lifestyle.” The NS isn’t just a physical locale, it’s a lifestyle, a way of thinking, a sense of entitlement, with a bit of old school nobility thinking. Not everyone of course, I don’t want to make broad generalizations, but even last week my buddy and I were talking about moving (because a family member of his was moving from Chicago to DuPage next month) and I said what about you? when are you going to move to the NS and he just laughed and said “you couldn’t pay me enough to live there!” Maybe we’re both insecure, or maybe we just know what we like and don’t like.
This old money/new money debate is so ridiculous for someone not from this place. So now a generation or two of having money makes you old money…haha
I guess in places where people actually have roots, it takes 300 years to make a name at minimum. Also I thought the great feature of this country is that it is land of dreams where any one can make it. Seriously grow up you guys a bit or go travel, see the world. It might put concept of time in perspective. (I know Bob is going to come after me now…hehe)
homedelete, it’s discouraging to hear you and your buddy think like that. After all, there are Asian immigrants, some barely 1 generation into the United States that have no mental problems moving to the NS. Even the Jews have no issues moving into the White Protestant (wasp) lifestyle, “way of thinking”, etc. And here you are, likely a 3rd generation or more White-American, possibly Protestant, who speaks perfect English, has a law degree and you can’t deal with the “way of thinking” — when these other outsiders/interlopers can?!! It’s your mental block, and it’s kinda sad to hear.
‘maybe it’s a little insecurity, as in “I don’t feel that I could live up the NS lifestyle” but it’s also “jeez, I can’t stand any of the people living here with their NS lifestyle.” The NS isn’t just a physical locale, it’s a lifestyle, a way of thinking, a sense of entitlement, with a bit of old school nobility thinking. “
sorry, juliana – you are totally correct. Naperville, Elmhurst, Downers, Wheaton, Hinsdale, glen Ellyn are very family friendly wonderful communities. For a family, these would be GREAT places to live. Oak Brook and Burr Ridge ARE very secluded and self-select for many very rich and some famous people that don’t want to be bothered.
See I Just associate northbrook and deerfield as part of the north shore – wrong or right. I think that insecurity is strongly associated with religious beliefs (compare hp to lf, hinsdale)
Riz:
Please don’t.
Horrifically linear? I guess. Horrifically flat too but I don’t see any mountains or oceans around here so I, like most people, will just continue to enjoy the lake on a summer day instead of wishing I were in marblehead.
@Dan Can you please show some class and respect the house rules. This is someone else’s blog who has repeatedly asked you to refrain from these types of discussions.
It’s not religious beliefs at all, it’s lifestyle. There’s a certain lifestyle expectation that goes along with living in the north shore. I don’t want my 16 year old crying to me because I won’t pay for her/him to join her friends in Breckenridge for spring break. My family vacations aren’t to hawaii. I may never make it to south america (and I’m OK with that). A good friend of mine who married into the NS wealth once told me that anyone who spent less than $10,000 on an engagement ring was ‘on a budget’. I have no problems with you moving there Dan, I don’t care what anyone else does. It’s not for me, and I”m not the only one who think this.
“#a-fed on February 16th, 2011 at 11:35 am
See I Just associate northbrook and deerfield as part of the north shore – wrong or right. I think that insecurity is strongly associated with religious beliefs (compare hp to lf, hinsdale)”
Please clarify for me what “old money” in Chicago is. Are we talking about the descendents of the Chicago meat packers like the Armour’s & Swift’s? Or, merchants like Potter Palmer and Marshall Field? Or late 19th century robber barons? Or do we actually have any real old money like descendents of any English, French, or Germany royalty? Some lords and ladies, or maybe even a knight or two? They would be hot on that castle in Oak Brook.
Chris, I think I love you : )
” Some lords and ladies, or maybe even a knight or two? They would be hot on that castle in Oak Brook.”
Not likely – they probably would have too much class to own such a ridiculous embarrassment of a house. I live a few houses away from “the castle” ( http://www.kingwanted.com ) and our whole neighborhood is so embarrassed by this structure (though it DOES serve as a good reference point when giving directions).
Old money in Chicago is three generations. If you’re in your 30’s and you’re living a NS lifestyle from money that was originally earned by your grandfather or earlier, you’re old money. Now this is different that old money on the east coast which goes back farther, and way different than old money in Europe which often dates to medieval nobility.
HD – I agree with you bout the lifestyle but still feel there is heavy emphasis on religious beliefs. Spending half my life in BG/LG with numerous friends and family from the surrounding suburbs (from AH to Schaumburg, to LF and Glencoe), there is an “expected” standard of living that comes from living in the north shore. Yet, it’s not a function of insecurity but rather an expectation – just as if you live in GC or ELP it is “expected” that you are wealthy-er.
If you can afford the house in the North Shore, you should be able to send your kid on the vacay.
Dan – “large pond”? Them’s fightin’ words! As a native of the upper Great Lakes having spent alot of time living practically on Lake Huron I take a little (good natured) offense at your statement. My personal preference would be a Great Lake over an Ocean.
Plus, the comparison is suspect – Can a contintenal edge at a global ocean be compared to the several massively large interior continental glacial gouges that collect a water from a very large and wet watershed? No.
A-Fed, you nailed it on the head, there is an expected standard of living, just expected. But keep in mind that the NS west of green bay road is a more reasonable place to live, yet some of the expected lifestyle is still there. I suppose there is a religious component to it all just as if I decided to live in Wheaton but that doesn’t bother me, it’s the expected standard of living that quite frankly I’m not interested in pursuing. Moreover, Im not interested in bailing out some NS boomer who has a small bank account today because he spent all the money of times past on vacations to hawaii for the fam, new cars and insurance for the two children, their college educations (and car insurance) and a new kitchen renovation every 10 or 12 years. THe legal profession is full of old attorneys who still work because they have to. They spent all their money during the good times living the expected lifestyle and now there isn’t as much left.
“Im not interested in bailing out some NS boomer who has a small bank account today because he spent all the money of times past on vacations to hawaii for the fam, new cars and insurance for the two children, their college educations (and car insurance) and a new kitchen renovation every 10 or 12 years”
Wow – HD – we ARE on the same page with regards to this topic. It is absolutely true – there is no way that all of these people can be saving money with the way they spend it. There is simply no way…. Just do the calculations. Even if you make 600-700k/year, that is NOT enough to afford a 2 million dollar house, 50-100k cars, private schools, nice vacations, and a nice social life AND save money. In order to do so, you really either have to have inherited quite a bit of money (2million plus) or make over 1-1.5 million/year. Again, just do the calculations…. I live this life – I know what I am talking about.
“In order to do so, you really either have to have inherited quite a bit of money (2million plus) or make over 1-1.5 million/year. Again, just do the calculations…. I live this life – I know what I am talking about.”
Yea, we heard you the first hundred times.
“Yea, we heard you the first hundred times.”
uhh, apparently not… otherwise there wouldn’t be so many idiotic accusations on this site…..
“A good friend of mine who married into the NS wealth once told me that anyone who spent less than $10,000 on an engagement ring was ‘on a budget’.”
You don’t even make $60k/year HD? No wonder you live in a studio in Uptown!
In addition to the lake accessability, NS suburbs like LF have a much stronger sense of place (history, ambiance, charm) than Oakbrook and other nice western suburbs.
Two months salary is total BS. I have nothing more to say about that.
“#anon (tfo) on February 16th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
“A good friend of mine who married into the NS wealth once told me that anyone who spent less than $10,000 on an engagement ring was ‘on a budget’.”
You don’t even make $60k/year HD? No wonder you live in a studio in Uptown!”
“You don’t even make $60k/year HD? No wonder you live in a studio in Uptown”
wait HD got a raise?
if you spend over 3k on an engagement ring you’re a moron and your wife is a gold digging whore
“if you spend over 3k on an engagement ring you’re a moron and your wife is a gold digging whore”
What if she’s the wealthier one? Seems to me a nice engagement ring could have a nice ROI if it prevents her from a pre-nup.
what are the chances of that?
wow sonies you brush with a wide stroke. how many of your friends spent more than $3,000 on a ring. Now you want your wife to hvae a nice ring, maybe not the nicest among her friends, but you don’t want your wife’s ring to the be smallest either.
“what are the chances of that?”
I happen to know a few fellow female alums from b-school pulling in coin these days who are still single. A good possibility their spouses will make less then them. I’m not into corp power women but a lot of guys don’t mind that. They are out there (although not at the places I frequent).
i bet you clio gave his wife a 20K engagement ring at trotter’s.
why not? Who cares, are they going to disband us as friends if my wife’s ring size is .25 carats smaller than theirs? or maybe I got a really good deal from “a guy” and its really worth 5,000 but I only paid 3k for it… how does that effect the personal peer relationships?
like I said… stupid and a complete and total waste of money in terms of a status symbol. The only thing a big ring does is make your wife a bigger target for muggings
oh and I tell all my friends that are thinking of popping the question
“don’t be an idiot. don’t spend over 5k on a ring, there really is no point.”
Wow what an intelligent comment! You know how much you spend on the ring is function of your income, taste and priorities. As Bob pointed out there are women who are high earners and definitely have potential of surpassing their husband’s income. Now I agree that it is shallow to borrow to buy a big bling bling and it is even more pathetic when people buy a large no name no quality stone to brag instead of getting quality. But that being said if someone say earns 700K a month and he is willing to get an expensive ring who are you to determine the cap. Moreover, there is a cultural component in the play too. My ring is perhaps too small for our income level in US, but when I go home it is considered too large.
“if you spend over 3k on an engagement ring you’re a moron and your wife is a gold digging whore”
“i bet you clio gave his wife a 20K engagement ring at trotter’s.”
My wife (at age 22) already had well over 100k in jewelry given to her by her parents. I couldn’t compete – she got a sapphire ring from sears that cost 300 or 400 dollars – and guess what – she gave all of her other jewelry to her sister. She treasured that ring for the entire time we were married and refused to wear any other ring.
” You know how much you spend on the ring is function of your income, taste and priorities”
thats great but in the grand scheme of the type of person you marry, it has zero relevance
That is very sweet. She sounds very classy. It is nice that mother of your kids to whom you will always be connected is a nice person.
“My wife (at age 22) already had well over 100k in jewelry given to her by her parents. I couldn’t compete – she got a sapphire ring from sears that cost 300 or 400 dollars – and guess what – she gave all of her other jewelry to her sister. She treasured that ring for the entire time we were married and refused to wear any other ring.”
just buy the synthetic rock and tell everyone it is real.
“what are the chances of that?”
Brother did it and his wife didn’t want nor does she have a diamond ring….. JACKPOT…. big money new york family +100 million networth easy…..
Thanks miumiu – she definitely is the most wonderful classiest woman I have ever met.
To be honest if I were marrying a very rich man and he bought me a 3K ring, I would be very offended. Of course if I wanted a very expensive ring from someone I loved and didn’t have money, then that made me shallow at best and other things at worst : )
“thats great but in the grand scheme of the type of person you marry, it has zero relevance”
To me it is sign of lack or moral fiber. If you don’t believe in something then stand up for it. It is so dishonest to be deceptive and lie to others.
“Brother did it and his wife didn’t want nor does she have a diamond ring….. JACKPOT…. big money new york family +100 million networth easy…..”
To me it is sign of lack or moral fiber. If you don’t believe in something then stand up for it. It is so dishonest to be deceptive and lie to others.
“Brother did it and his wife didn’t want nor does she have a diamond ring….. JACKPOT…. big money new york family +100 million networth easy…..”
Miumiu I wrote two different thoughts on one post. My brother didn’t buy a synthetic diamond….. all his wife wanted was a gold band……… and thats what she got…. my other comment was directed at the wealthier spouse comment…..
“To me it is sign of lack or moral fiber. If you don’t believe in something then stand up for it. It is so dishonest to be deceptive and lie to others.”
Well said – now THAT is what true class is all about.
those synthetic rings are the highest quality, and they cost the least. the emperor has no clothes but the masses still are buying the charade. impressive work by debeers.
@V Sorry my bad.
No miumiu, my bad…… wasn’t clear on my post.
“just buy the synthetic rock and tell everyone it is real”
i really wish i knew about those when i was shopping. we would have totally gotten one.
now i fell i skimped out on her ring (no big surprise with the groove) but we look at it this way she may not have the biggest ring when comparing but each year when her friends talk about how they went to flordia to go 4wheelin’ and jet skiing she is able to whip out the “trump” pictures of one of our two *mac-daddy vacations each year and our one USA vacation.
we rather have that each year the a shinny rock on her finger.
(given since the kid she is afraid of going overseas with him so the past two years havent been as *pimp)
“those synthetic rings are the highest quality, and they cost the least. the emperor has no clothes but the masses still are buying the charade. impressive work by debeers.”
True. I’d discuss it with her including that these mined diamonds are less perfect and result in people getting killed and with the money I saved on the (large) cultured rock I’d spend on a very precious metal. We haven’t found out how to make those yet!
I am surprised those who create the synthetic rocks haven’t found out how to add impurities to them or don’t seem to be interested in doing so. They could destroy the gem industry and make some big bucks for a lil while.
For what it counts, most of my friends have spent more than 10k on a ring. I’m planning on proposing after graduating residency and will probably spend 20-30k. I don’t see a ring as a waste of money as it’s not something that will depreciate, and is likely something your wife will treasure for the remainder of your marriage/life. If you are making 300k+ a year, I don’t see the harm in dropping 20k on a ring. if youre making 50-60k , then 5-7k is still reasonable in my opinion. i’ve always been told ‘1-2 months salary’ is a gentleman’s amount to spend. Naturally this varies as someone that makes 1mil a year is unlikely to spend ~200k on a ring.
this whole ring discussion is hilarious…
the one thing that irks me is the people who cannot afford any style of ring regardless of size and then finance it…
I am soo glad my wife doesn’t care for diamond rings, a platinum band from tiffanys is all she has.
On the otherhand my friend’s wife is the complete opposite…… he just inherited money and she is looking to upgrade her ring to one of those $200k models. Man what a waste.
“What if she’s the wealthier one? Seems to me a nice engagement ring could have a nice ROI if it prevents her from a pre-nup.”
As my attorney is so fond of saying, “Remember, you can marry more money in 5 minutes than you can earn in a lifetime!”
“I don’t see a ring as a waste of money as it’s not something that will depreciate,”
When synthetic diamonds gain widespread adoption it will indeed depreciation. It is doubtful your wife will mark-to-market in her brain the current value of it, though.
My gf and I went ring shopping recently, well she did as I was distracted by the shiny things like a fish. After the event, I asked her if brand name mattered (bulgari) to which she responded absolutely. I then countered asking her why she wanted a ring that many other women might already have? Why not go custom and pick a stone and design a setting? She liked that idea…so until that time comes,she can wear the ring pop I bought her, a red one.
I bought a $24k ring for my wife. I was planning on spending $15k or so but I happened to get a huge comission check right before I decided to propose. I paid cash for it and I don’t regret the purchase at all. So I guess that makes me an “idiot” and my wife a “gold digging whore” There are some things in life that have more value than the acutal dollars spent, this is one of them.
” I don’t see a ring as a waste of money as it’s not something that will depreciate”
HUH? WTF are you talking about? Have you ever tried to sell a ring/diamonds – you get 20-30% of what you paid for it. The only value is sentimental – which is, in my opinion, more important than its financial value.
I had a friend, his mom had died of cancer and bequeathed him her engagement ring. I guess his wife wasnt thrilled with it and a few years into their marriage she started itchin for an upgrade. Most of his friends were appalled but I think she got it after enough badgering. she was kind of a witch. she later got into cocaine, and banging the neighbor. they’re divorced now.
“I bought a $24k ring for my wife. I was planning on spending $15k or so but I happened to get a huge comission check right before I decided to propose. I paid cash for it and I don’t regret the purchase at all”
I like hearing this kind of thing because as long as there are people like this in the world, real estate values will be do just fine…….
But a Lamborghini is a sound purchase?
clio, do you see the humor that your comment comes under the “short sales are everywhere” headline.
“I bought a $24k ring for my wife. I was planning on spending $15k or so but I happened to get a huge comission check right before I decided to propose. I paid cash for it and I don’t regret the purchase at all. So I guess that makes me an “idiot””
No moreso than anyone else who buys a ring OR who buys a new car (like me). Bought a new car for 26k 3.5 years ago. These days would be lucky to get 14k for it. I know how I treat rental cars or cars that I know I won’t be driving long so the piece of mind knowing I am the only owner was worth it to me, even if the ROI didn’t make sense.
HOLY MOLY clio, again, you and I agree AGAIN. What the hell is going on here? I have a buddy currently trying to hock a $12,000 diamond ring from a failed and he’s having a difficult time finding takers for anything above pennies on the dollar.
Clio maybe I misjudged you, today you and I are right on the money.
“clio on February 16th, 2011 at 3:18 pm
” I don’t see a ring as a waste of money as it’s not something that will depreciate”
HUH? WTF are you talking about? Have you ever tried to sell a ring/diamonds – you get 20-30% of what you paid for it. The only value is sentimental – which is, in my opinion, more important than its financial value.”
So what you are saying Chris is that she would have thrown a 5k ring back in your face and declared “ITS OVER”?
I can understand being nice and all but there is no practical need to have something worth a new car on your wife’s dainty little(or big) finger
I dunno about you, but I would be scared that she would be targeted for getting mugged or god forbid if she lost it (yeah yeah insurance) but that isn’t the point.
Also, rings cost a hell of a lot more today than they did just two years ago… inflation? where?
I went with blue nile in order to maximize the quality of the stone for the price and spent like 7-8k where the retailers we were going to were pricing the same “Cs” and setting at 10-11k. I was 25, and was making like 70k at the time.
On an after tax perspective I guess I was at the 2 month range, but feel like the Blue Nile purchase helped me “afford” something I wasn’t willing to pay to a retailer or a brand. When it comes to something that is truly a commodity (and there is no engineering or functionality involved) brands are completely meaningless to me, and my wife.
I found it was one of those purchases that helps you figure out what you value as a consumer.
“There are some things in life that have more value than the acutal dollars spent, this is one of them.”
I dunno, you sure as hell can buy a lot of fun for 24k…
Big rings are no different than North Shore addresses. Really. It’s about status. Status means a lot and has always meant a lot. No sense in denying it. Status was the difference between a Roman citizen and a barbarian. Status is the difference between nobility who were above the yeomen who were the villeins. Status was the difference between the those who wore culottes and those who were sans-colottes in pre-revolutionary france. status today in our culture is the difference between the Glencoe address and the big engagement ring vs. the Des Plaines address and the Zales sub -1.0 carat rings.
“she later got into cocaine, and banging the neighbor.”
Nobody gets into hard drugs in their 30s+. My friends who use/abuse drugs typically have been doing them since youth its just the habit spirals out of control for some.
As Charlie Sheen recently said on a talk radio interview the other day: “I’d advise you not to do crack as it’s very hard to keep it under control socially, not many can do it”.
To which the interviewer stated: “Is that what you thought you could do, keep it under control and use it socially?”
Charlie responded: “Yeah well that kinda blew up in my face”.
If a person hasn’t done it by their late 20s they’re not going to do it. If they have skeletons in their closet its always possible for a relapse or them to come out, just depends on the person and their social circle.
*Can claim to be moral here but I can’t touch the stuff due to a health issue. For me it really is russian roulette.
“Status was the difference between a Roman citizen and a barbarian.”
Little more than that, HD.
And I didn’t mean to start a ring discussion, just razzing HD, bc I knew what he thought about it.
So what you are saying Chris is that she would have thrown a 5k ring back in your face and declared “ITS OVER”?
No, but if I would have spent $5k then bought a watch or a motorcycle I’m sure that would reflect negativiely to her on my level of maturity or priorities. I enjoy making her happy and wanted to give a gesture to show that.
that sucks for you bob… cocaine is a hell of a (fun) drug
what if you spent 5k, and then got a motorcycle with a sidecar for her?
“Gary brought it up because of me – it absolutely was 100% directed at me (nobody else on this site ever talks about Oak Brook but me). So, kid, you have to be able to read between the lines. ”
Clio, I swear it was not directed at you. Didn’t even remember you had an affection for Oak Brook. I’ve been working in Oak Brook lately. Here’s the irony. Between my last comment on this thread and this one I got a call from an Oak Brook realtor regarding a home we had looked at several months ago and my client was interested. But my preliminary conversation with the realtor made it clear at that time that we were too far apart. I had thrown some numbers around. Now this realtor was telling me that my numbers were looking far more attractive to the seller and we could get a deal done. But I suspect my client is seeing better options at this time. It’s anecdotal but still interesting.
Gary – no worries. Sorry I was a bit “out of control” with my posts. My post-workout endorphins are kicking in so I am feeling a lot more calm.
On a side note – have you seen an uptick in interest in the past few days? My broker and I were having a meeting this morning and his phone was ringing out of control. I know the spring market is around the corner, but this is different than the past few years.
“Now this realtor was telling me that my numbers were looking far more attractive to the seller and we could get a deal done”
Interesting – actually two of the BEST deals I have ever seen in oak brook both closed in the past week. These people practically STOLE these properties (both of which I am sure are going to be torn down since they went under contract and closed within a couple of weeks = cash buyer):
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Oak-Brook/411-Fox-Trail-Ln-60523/home/18082357
and
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Oak-Brook/Undisclosed-address-60523/home/14165911
Lots of local custom-jewelers get people who come in with a page ripped from a magazine showing a high-end brand name jeweler’s setting, and then ask for a knock-off or a replica of it, to avoid paying full luxury retail.
“Why not go custom and pick a stone and design a setting?”
Something is definitely afoot. Getting more inquiries. Seeing an uptick in Web site traffic. Could be interest rates. Between the new Fannie/ Freddie fees, the planned demise of Fannie and Freddie, the overall increase in rates, and the signs of inflation I think buyers are thinking they need to make their move now.
I think that the spring selling season is in the air. It’s been absent the last few years and it is a pleasant surprise to see it return. Lower selling prices will result in increased volume.
Will the demise of Freddie and Fannie mean higher interest rates down the road and downward pressure on prices? Obviously those two agencies supply the liquidity for the market so I would imagine that without them loans would be even more difficult to obtain.
“status today in our culture is the difference between the Glencoe address and the big engagement ring vs. the Des Plaines address and the Zales sub -1.0 carat rings.”
True, except a north shore address also allows for strolls to the lake and some of the best public K – 12 options in the entire country.
“True, except a north shore address also allows for strolls to the lake and some of the best public K – 12 options in the entire country.”
Nobody goes to the Lake!! Have you seen anyone at the lake in NT T’Ship in the past 6 weeks??? Thought so, and that proves the point!!!!
BTW, this is where brand name matters. Both my mom and I have Cartiers and they always keep thier value. Of course not if you sell it couple of years after you bought, but in long term they appreciate. There is also something sentimental about old family heirlooms. I love the old stuff I got from my husband’s grandma. No idea what the value is but I love them.
“Will the demise of Freddie and Fannie mean higher interest rates down the road and downward pressure on prices?”
Higher interest rates for sure. They basically subsidize mortgages and that will go away. Downward pressure on prices? You would think so but the historic data suggests not a very tight relationship between interest rates and prices. We’ve debated that here ad nauseam.
GAry…”I think buyers are thinking they need to make their move now.”
and I’m the stoner?
Gary
Check-out Ed Glaeser’s summary of his research into whether or not interest rates are correlated to house prices. His chart of real house prices to real 10-year yields is worth a look:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/did-low-interest-rates-cause-the-great-housing-convulsion/
(Hat tip to (I think) Dave M for this link.)
Thanks, Wojo. I’ve been meaning to post some research that I found a while ago along the same lines. Interest rates are a factor but not as much as you would think. But for me, I’m definitely willing to spend a lot more in a low interest rate environment than a high interest rate environment.
“BTW, this is where brand name matters. Both my mom and I have Cartiers and they always keep thier value. Of course not if you sell it couple of years after you bought, but in long term they appreciate. There is also something sentimental about old family heirlooms. I love the old stuff I got from my husband’s grandma. No idea what the value is but I love them.”
Definitely true in certain capacities..My dad collects patek’s and his have definitely appreciated in value. I love my panerai to death, but don’t think its old enough to have appreciated, though i don’t think its lost much value either.
I’m thinking things will finally shake out in 2014. The robosigning mess thing needs some time to shake out and the bank assets are still marked to fantasy so they will be in no rush to foreclose. Great time to be a cash buyer and not have to worry about rates then I think…may be able to pick stuff up real cheap.
”I think buyers are thinking they need to make their move now.”
Dan: “Not to mention there’s something about salt water too that makes it more serious as a waterfront as compared to Lake Michigan, a big pond.”
While the ocean has waves, seafood, and great surfing potential, it is still a stinky ass body of water. The richest houses in long island are still close enough to the spot where all of NYC’s sewage sludge is dumped (12 miles offshore of Long Island). Plus the tides always expose a stinky water edge.
Lake Michigan is FRESH water — the most valuable resource on the planet. Yeah the beaches are linear and boring, unlike the New England coast. But the sunrises are still spectacular. And swimming and kayaking is much more practical in the lake. Saltwater burns my eyes and nose, and it dries out my skin.
“Great time to be a cash buyer and not have to worry about rates then I think…may be able to pick stuff up real cheap.”
I’m with you Juliana. Anyone with cash will be king when the rates spike higher (and prices fall further.) If you have cash and therefore don’t care about a 10% mortgage- what will you have available to buy? A lot of great properties.
“Something is definitely afoot. Getting more inquiries. Seeing an uptick in Web site traffic”
Yeah, something definitely is going on – well into tonight my broker has been calling me saying that he can’t handle phone calls from buyers wanting to see places. One property that we thought would be “dead” for the next 5 years is my farm. I know it has been a joke on this site, but there have been 4 showings this week alone (with more scheduled for this weekend). What is going on?!! Even I wouldn’t expect this much interest all of a sudden.
“You would think so but the historic data suggests not a very tight relationship between interest rates and prices. We’ve debated that here ad nauseam.”
Right- you trade down. So instead of buying the $400,000 property you buy the $300,000 property because that’s what the monthly payment will now afford you.
But I think there are wildcards in this this time around.
1. There is a massive glut on the upper end due to overbuilding. Who will be around to afford all those properties if everyone is trading down?
2. Will some home buyers psychologically be able to buy the property without the granite and stainless steel appliances- which may now be out of their price range? I wonder…
“Something is definitely afoot. Getting more inquiries. Seeing an uptick in Web site traffic”
It’s called the spring buying/selling season. It’s not rocket science. And as someone else said- the weather has been so horrible that at the first break of “spring” people want to get out and see things. I saw quite a few people at open houses last Sunday for the first time in weeks. But it was 45 degrees and sunny out.
Mortgage applications nationwide fell 9.5% last week which is not a good sign for actual sales in the next few weeks.
“Will the demise of Freddie and Fannie mean higher interest rates down the road and downward pressure on prices? Obviously those two agencies supply the liquidity for the market so I would imagine that without them loans would be even more difficult to obtain.”
To me- it’s really all about the downpayment requirements. Sheila Bair at the FDIC wants 20% down. The White House wants 10% down. But they are also punting to Congress. The various real estate organizations like NAR are lobbying hard to keep the downpayments as low as possible. Even 10% down is out of reach for most homebuyers.
“It’s called the spring buying/selling season. It’s not rocket science.”
Yes – definitely because of the spring buying/selling season BUT we haven’t seen this type of interest since 2007. 2008 spring season started out ok but 2009 and 2010 were HORRIBLE. Who knows if this will translate into sales, but it is at least a step in the right direction….
“2008 spring season started out ok but 2009 and 2010 were HORRIBLE.”
Actually- you’re wrong. Last year we had the 2nd first time AND move-up buyer tax credit which fueled sales until the summer. So the government stimulus actually boosted home buying last spring.
If you look back in the Crib Chatter archives at the sales data from last spring- it was well over 2009 levels (which were, of course, very depressed.) April 2010, for instance, saw a 41% jump in sales in Chicago due to the tax credit.
sorry sabrina – I was just talking about this initial interest buyers were showing this spring compared to recent years – not the actual sales. We will have to wait until april-may to see how that plays out. I have to say that while I DO think that a significantly increased amount of properties will go under contract this spring, I am still a bit skeptical about the number of actual sales since it has become nearly impossible to get a mortgage!!
If Fannie & Freddie go the way of the dinosaurs rates will go up in the short term. Down payments will also increase. Underwriting will be more thorough in some ways but also a lot of the BS overly technical guidelines of Fannie/Freddie will be eliminated. Finally, most loans will only by ARMs or 15 year fixed loans.
If you want a sense of how the mortgages would look, just take a look at the jumbo market.
Over time, the guidelines would loosen up though as banks start to compete more fiercely for mortgages. Rates are also going to come down for the highest quality borrowers.
A large increase in down payment requirements and interest rates would depress prices further, and there’s no way economic growth would save the market, unless you are looking at a 7-10 year time horizon. Currently, a former professor of mine is doing a study on home prices and interest rates that takes inflation into account as well and will go through the end of 2010. I think this will still show only a modest correlation between pricing and interest rates, but it will be closer than before.
I saw interesting news on preliminary census results today. Chicago lost 200,000 people in the past 10 years, and ethnic shifts are quickly changing the city and suburbs.
What you really have to look at is employment, not just population – unless you want a city of retired people. Nevertheless, employment in the greater metro area dropped about 300K in the last 10 years but it’s a highly fluid number and is up 100K in the last year alone.
Hhgregg is hiring 900 new sales associates for the four new stores it plans to open. Will these jobs pay enough to save the market?
HD,
you dont think targets new stores employee’s will save the housing market and our unemployment problem?
I am also curious about white collar employment trends, and also stats on incomes of $150K and up. Unfortunately, those weren’t included in the 2010 census this time around.
I’ve always wondered, and still wonder, who is filling up the downtown apartments and office towers. The trends downtown since the days of the Arthur Andersen implosion, BP’s Amoco takeover, etc. haven’t been good. Then there was the Y2K/dotcom/Internet culture which thought/thinks downtown is not hip, plus all the virtual office workers who can now work from home.
I watched the downtown boom in complete bewilderment, and bearish observers have been vindicated, even Belgravia’s Lev admits as much. However, we do still have apartments downtown doing well and who ever thought large apartment towers out there at Alta at K station would lease up in that location? Give those guys credit for having some balls.
Re: Chicago (city) “I am also curious about white collar employment trends, and also stats…..”
“I’ve always wondered, and still wonder, who is filling up the downtown apartments and office towers”
Unemployment is a deceiving figure. The unemp rate among college educated people (the ones who buy downtown apartments) is actually very low (4-5%). I think there is just a greater divide between classes now. The have’s are doing ok, the have not’s are doing terribly. On average it makes it look like everyone doing poorly, but it is skewed on the low end.
Underemployed college graduates aren’t likely to save the housing market:
“Colleges and universities are turning out graduates faster than America’s labor markets are creating jobs that traditionally have been reserved for those with degrees. More than one-third of current working graduates are in jobs that do not require a degree, and the proportion appears to be rising rapidly. Many of them are better described as “underemployed” rather than “gainfully employed.” Indeed, 60 percent of the increased college graduate population between 1992 and 2008 ended up in these lower skill jobs, raising real questions about the desirability of pushing to increase the proportion of Americans attending and graduating from four year colleges and universities. This, along with other evidence on the negative relationship between government higher education spending and economic growth, suggests we may have significantly “over invested” public funds in colleges and universities.”
http://www.centerforcollegeaffordability.org/uploads/From_Wall_Street_to_Wal-Mart.pdf
“Unemployment is a deceiving figure. The unemp rate among college educated people (the ones who buy downtown apartments) is actually very low (4-5%).”
“Underemployed college graduates aren’t likely to save the housing market:”
There is a difference between just graduating from college, and having a college degree.
How do you graduate from college without a degree?
“There is a difference between just graduating from college, and having a college degree.”
“How do you graduate from college without a degree?”
I assume you are not stupid and are just trying to be funny. I clearly stated there was a difference between JUST graduating from college, and being a college graduate.
“There is a difference between just graduating from college, and having a college degree.”
Ok, then doesn’t that impact the relevance of your stat that “The unemp rate among college educated people (the ones who buy downtown apartments) is actually very low (4-5%)”? It does appear that you agree with juliana’s point that your stat includes a lot of underemployed. How will they be buying?
No Chuk, I would say you are rather unclear, and in fact didn’t clearly state what you claimed you did.
Do you mean there is a difference between “just” (as in scraping by) graduating college, and having a college degree?
Doesn’t graduating from college mean you get a degree in any case?
True story:
I graduated from college without a degree.
I owed the University something like $500 bucks or something and I took my sweet time paying them back, and they wouldn’t send my degree until I paid them back, and I waited nearly a year after I graduated to do so.
Is this what you mean?
“Is this what you mean?”
being dense or picking a fight?
There are a *lot* more “college grads” than there are “recent college grads”.
Was anybody disputing this? How is that relevant?
“There are a *lot* more “college grads” than there are “recent college grads”.”
My snarky comment was in reference to “There is a difference between just graduating from college, and having a college degree.”
I graduated but college but didn’t yet have my degree conferred because I owed $500 bucks.
“#juliana on February 17th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Was anybody disputing this? How is that relevant?
“There are a *lot* more “college grads” than there are “recent college grads”.”
“Do you mean there is a difference between “just” (as in scraping by) graduating college, and having a college degree?”
No. “Just” as in “recently”. Recent college grads (ie. people with no experience) have a lot harder time finding a job than people with experience (“people that have college degrees, but didn’t recently graduate from college”)
Okay, I admit I’m a little obtuse at times, but chuk’s comments seemed a bit more dense than your snarky remark. And him asking whether I was stupid or trying to be funny seemed more like picking a fight than your comment.
wow,
uninspiring properties featured today as the chatter has gotten to this point.
Is this another one of your assumptions or do you have something to back it up? I would think a lot of the laid off graduates, in their 50s, are stuck in the same situation as recent grads…
“Recent college grads (ie. people with no experience) have a lot harder time finding a job than people with experience (”people that have college degrees, but didn’t recently graduate from college”)”
Groove – it is not as bad as the Lake Forest vs Oak Brook discussion!!! UGGHHHH – that was awful!!
“Was anybody disputing this? How is that relevant?”
Yes. You were. Your example was talking about RECENT college grads. They are a small portion of the overall population of college grads. The unemployment rate among ALL college grads is low (4-5%). If that includes recent college grads which you state have a much higher unemployment rate, then it means that the rest of them is actually lower than 4-5% because the recent grads are bringing that number up.
“And him asking whether I was stupid or trying to be funny seemed more like picking a fight than your comment.”
Well, which was it?
Where does my example refer to recent grads? You are making assumptions again.
“Your example was talking about RECENT college grads.”
“Is this another one of your assumptions or do you have something to back it up?”
Another one? What was my other one? And yes I do:
http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110116/APC0101/101160523/Unemployment-rates-significantly-lower-for-college-graduates
“Where does my example refer to recent grads?”
Uhhhh:
“Colleges and universities are turning out graduates faster than America’s labor markets are creating jobs that traditionally have been reserved for those with degrees.”
Why should I play that game when you clearly can’t defend yourself without resorting to name calling?
“Well, which was it?”
“Why should I play that game when you clearly can’t defend yourself without resorting to name calling?”
When did I call you a name? I said I assume you were NOT stupid.
What does that say about recent grads underemployment?
“More than one-third of current working graduates are in jobs that do not require a degree, and the proportion appears to be rising rapidly.”
Nothing there about recent grads versus laid off grads. In any case, what difference would it make? I am assuming in any case that it the recent grads that you are looking to save the housing market, since they would be the ones buying the empty condos. Am I wrong?
“Colleges and universities are turning out graduates faster than America’s labor markets are creating jobs that traditionally have been reserved for those with degrees.”
Clio: OT but what’s your opinion when someone actually *WANTS* a tastefully rehabbed/light-filled 4 bd. ranch house in someplace like Oak Brook or Northfield or Lake Forest, on a decent size lot, but then it’s surrounded by all the new construction McMansions? In Oak Brook, are the ranch home owners considered “losers”? and their homes derisively dismissed at as future knockdowns? despite being as nice as any 4 bd. high-rise condo would be?
“And him asking whether I was stupid or trying to be funny seemed more like picking a fight than your comment.”
juliana:
You may be referring to chuk with that, but if not–I wasn’t talking to you, I was razzing HD, my good fake internet friend, which I thought was clear b/c I quoted HD, and not you.
Also, dense /= stupid. I am frequently dense, but only occasionally stupid, and have met many never-stupid people who are still dense from time to time.
“I am assuming in any case that it the recent grads that you are looking to save the housing market, since they would be the ones buying the empty condos. Am I wrong?”
Why would I think that? Recent college grads don’t have any money or jobs. But people who are college graduates, are employed, and have money are buying them.
Okay, are YOU being deliberately dense, to use anon’s term? The point is that the low unemployment rate among graduates that you quoted, be they recent or not, is not indicative of their ability to afford to buy condos, since there is growing underemployment in that group, regardless of its recent/non-recent(?) makeup. In fact, many of the underemployed who are not recent graduates have lost jobs due to downsizing and are un/underemployed are defaulting on mortgages, not looking to buy condos.
“Why would I think that? Recent college grads don’t have any money or jobs. But people who are college graduates, are employed, and have money are buying them.”
“The point is that the low unemployment rate among graduates that you quoted, be they recent or not, is not indicative of their ability to afford to buy condos, since there is growing underemployment in that group, regardless of its recent/non-recent(?) makeup.”
Overall, I disagree. Sure, if you take the low end (recent grads) and high end (old farts), they may be underemployed. But the majority of college grads are doing just fine.
“But people who are college graduates, are employed, and have money are buying them.”
That’s why I am optimistic about the ongoing march toward more affordable housing since those monied grads are still not buying at a rate that will sustain current pricing levels.
“That’s why I am optimistic about the ongoing march toward more affordable housing since those monied grads are still not buying at a rate that will sustain current pricing levels.”
How do you know? Sales are up y-o-y. At what point do you see the “turn”? You can’t predict volume. You can only measure it in hindsight. By the time you see sufficient sales volume to support prices, the prices will already be gone. If you find out that 2011 condo sales went up 100%, you’ll be able to say “yup, volume supports these prices”. But you won’t be able to buy at those prices any more.
chukdotcom – you can predict whatever the heck you want. Increasing volume does not necessarily mean increasing prices. In fact, in today’s market, increasing volume usually means decreasing prices, provided it was preceded by a period of decreased volume.
“Groove – it is not as bad as the Lake Forest vs Oak Brook discussion!!! UGGHHHH – that was awful!!”
hey i enjoyed that one compared to this one
“Increasing volume does not necessarily mean increasing prices.”
No, but it also does not necessarily mean decreasing prices. Which is what both you and G have said. So which is it? My point is, by the time your stats tell you the bottom is in, the bottom will be long gone.
So how will YOU personally know when the time to buy is. I’m not asking when the last foreclosure is. Or when unemployment goes back to 5%, etc. I’m asking when the bottom is housing will occur, and prices will stop going down, and start going up. How will you know that BEFORE it happens? What tools/stats, etc do you use?
“Sales are up y-o-y.”
Where? Here’s some data for January condo closings:
Near North
1997 98
1998 107
1999 122
2000 140
2001 136
2002 117
2003 153
2004 221
2005 217
2006 323
2007 280
2008 187
2009 88
2010 119
2011 99
Near South
1997 1
1998 5
1999 16
2000 10
2001 9
2002 36
2003 53
2004 50
2005 77
2006 45
2007 80
2008 34
2009 36
2010 42
2011 22
“Where? Here’s some data for January condo closings:”
2010 vs 2009.
G – you DO realize that sales in Jan 2011 are really reflective of what went under contract in Oct-Nov (and possibly Dec). Wait until May of 2011 and then spout your doomsday scenario – if you want to look like a complete idiot.
“In Oak Brook, are the ranch home owners considered “losers”? and their homes derisively dismissed at as future knockdowns? despite being as nice as any 4 bd. high-rise condo would be?”
No – not at all. The great thing about oak brook (as opposed to Hinsdale) is that there is absolutely no judgement here. Everyone feels like they can be as creative and unique with their homes – and everybody understands that. For example, on my street, my immediate next door neighbor has a 14000 sq ft house probably worth 4-5 million and my other immediate next door neighbor is paying 1500/month to rent a 2 bed/1 bath 900 sqare foot house (bought a few years ago by an investor for 800k – land value). All of us get along just fine without any problems or judgements. The same happens all around oak brook – which is why I chose to live here. The same is ABSOLUTELY not true in Hinsdale (where I also own a few houses). There, people are so catty and judgmental – you practically have to dress up in evening wear to go get your newspaper!!
thats not true at all clio, I know one of the neighbors of the guy who built the “kingwanted” house and he wants to kill him!
Seems very ironic that someone who routinely bullies others “..Be very very careful or I will report to state board of regulators that you posted you believe my neighborhood is nouveau riche, declasse and out of favor..” complaining when posters with superior upper class steet cred treat him with disdain.
In some sense, we are at the bottom. lax lending was a majority of the problem on the way up, and now that it has for the most part returned to normality, prices drops have occurred as a result.
Right now further drops will come not from tightening lending standards, but from supply issues. RIght now there is little supply that meets the new normality and volume is low as a result. As more appropriately priced properties trickle into the MlS it will further drive down prices.
“Wait until May of 2011 and then spout your doomsday scenario”
What doomsday scenario? The return of housing values to sustainable levels will be very good for a functioning economy. This is a reason for optimism. I don’t know what kind of sick and twisted mind roots for higher costs for one of life’s necessities, especially in these difficult times?
“if you want to look like a complete idiot.”
Here is some contract data for condo/TH units. Keep in mind that the comparison of current contracts to historical numbers will overcount current contracts that fall out and disappear from the historicals.
Near North
Jan Feb 1-15
2007 492 235
2008 218 122
2009 125 57
2010 159 88
2011 157 99
Lincoln Park
Jan Feb 1-15
2007 90 65
2008 63 55
2009 22 27
2010 56 40
2011 52 34
Lakeview
Jan Feb 1-15
2007 152 130
2008 121 96
2009 54 40
2010 77 67
2011 79 47
“thats not true at all clio, I know one of the neighbors of the guy who built the “kingwanted” house and he wants to kill him!”
noooo – he probably was joking. That house is literally a few houses down from me and although the neighbors joke about it quite a bit, it is all in good fun. It provides some stimulus for conversation..
Southbound,
Something is very weird here – the only comments you seem to post on this site are to either:
1. out me
2. insult me
3. out me and insult me
4. talk about your paranoid delusions about how miumiu, AndrewT and me are all the same person.
Come on – get over it already!
G –
your numbers may be a little “off”. For example, does your data reflect that my farm is under contract? I didn’t think so – see there is this thing called “lag” and, factor in the poor workers inputing all this data, there will be a delay in getting this information out.
The only thing “off” is your apparent inability to understand that 5″ is, in fact, not 8″ – no matter the “lag.”
“The only thing “off” is your apparent inability to understand that 5? is, in fact, not 8?”
Huh? Explain what you are talking about…
uhhhh he wasnt
Sonies – the only person complaining would be the person who lives directly in front of this monstrosity. I think everyone else finds it absolutely amusing.
If I was living in that house that is now in the front yard of the king’s castle, I wouldn’t just be making friendly jibes about the developer.
However, I’ll state that the castle is amazing; look at the build pics – that thing could sustain some serious shelling before you’d need to release the hounds or drop the boiling oil. Just too bad they chose to align it to look at a normal family’s house.
btw – sincere congrats that your farm is under contract clio.
Thanks wicker!!
C: RU JOKING – the world does not revolve around you!
You are wrong again:
1. The only one “outing” you here is you. Repeatedly. Not me.
2.& 3. No interest in spending time insulting you now or ever.
Admittedly I’m mildly amused at your reactions to real or imagined slights (by others) after reading your many condescending comments.
Yes, congratulations Clio for selling before the market gets worse. Is it another of those fancy financing deals like the last one?
I also own a farm and recently got a whole cow for letting my neighbor use some of my fields. A little hedge against food inflation. Awesome organic produce all summer. I’m looking forward to the asparagus beds producing in a couple months.
Wow that sounds great Juliana. Nothing beats fresh produce. Can you guys get milk from the cow?
“Can you guys get milk from the cow?”
Yes, if she has a baby.
juliana, that is great!! Good for you – that is a lot to manage but you seem like a person who can do it all. Congratulations should go to you for being able to keep and manage a working farm!!
anon.. I wish I was looking at bottoms on the beach but not so funny enough being a foreigner I got into an R/E mess down here with a couple of my rural purchases that needed to be authorized before title was turned over (Brazil kinda sees large purchases of it’s rural lands as homeland security issue) and am this week sorting through the fact title WAS transfered to me and I am now going to have to seek approval retroactively which until received I all but officially am in possesion of a title that is null and void.
As for the gang stuff, they just got completely wiped out, this place was dangerous, now tranquil as can be… you need to come down and check out the Ipanema real estate market.
lol, we’re not quite ready for livestock, though we may get some goats so the pastures don’t get overgrown. What we got is a whole lot of beef that takes up a lot of two freezers.
“Can you guys get milk from the cow?”
lol…Oh the poor cow…But, seriously enjoy it.
“What we got is a whole lot of beef that takes up a lot of two freezers.”
Its really only a working farm during the growing season for now. We do have a few chickens and guinea fowl, but we’re able to leave them there alone for awhile with automatic feeders and help from neighbors. We have lots of visitors who enjoy the fishing, bicycling, hunting, snowmobiling and cross country ski weekends. Its a very picturesque spot on sandy bench above a winding river. The view from farm house’s south facing sunroom is amazing.
It was rather jarring to go back and forth between Naperville and the farm at first, but we have become more flexible.
“juliana, that is great!! Good for you – that is a lot to manage but you seem like a person who can do it all. Congratulations should go to you for being able to keep and manage a working farm!!”
juliana, that is still very impressive. I haven’t even taken the time to go to my
farm in St. Charles since last october – now THAT is pure laziness!!
I would have no problem being the “poor man” in a rich man’s suburb. I’d gladly own a ranch home among mansions, and mow the lawn with black socks and dress shoes. F*ck ’em if the neighbors have a problem with me.
I totally agree with you danny and I respect your strength – the only problem is you may be putting your children at extreme risk of isolation and ridicule/taunts. My dad had the same attitude as you and I still remember kids picking on me and making fun of me because I was so “poor”. They used to tell me that my dad was a chauffeur and my mom was a cook to the richer people in our neighborhood (because we lived in a coach house – which obviously had been separated from the main property and expanded/renovated – but that didn’t matter).
I’m talking about something like this, and these are right off Green Bay Rd:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Lake-Forest/555-Cherokee-Rd-60045/home/17632098
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Lake-Forest/443-Greenwood-Ave-60045/home/17630886
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Lake-Forest/597-S-Green-Bay-Rd-60045/home/17632352
This would place a family in a situation to be ridiculed? What do you think?
How about this one: http://www.redfin.com/IL/Lake-Forest/743-Morningside-Dr-60045/home/17630725
There has to be some people with only 1-2 kids that would prefer this to the massive overhead of a McMansion, no?
Dan that’s a nice home, but, it’s way over priced and it’s in the ‘no man’s’ land for pricing. It’s not within conforming range nor is on the high end. The house with white carpet is not for children and it’s pretty clear that some boomers upgraded the place over the years. The taxes at nearly $10,000 are a bit high for a young family with children and the ugly brick fireplace gives the house a ‘grandma & grandpa’s’ house look. Moreover, the owners first listed the house pre-Lehman in 2008, asking what I”m sure was a blatantly absurd price and they’re been chasing the market down ever since. Now the property is stale and no one is interested and intermittent price reductions no longer even generation interest among potential buyers. My brief research of the neighborhood shows quite a few dated 1960’s frame homes (including a few split level tract home ranches!) all listed in the 600’s and 700’s. Again, no man’s land for pricing, nothing more than some boomers trying to cash out on their ‘prime’ real estate by selling it to the next generation at some crazy inflated price. It’s failing so miserably.
Dan – agree, nice home in what i believe is a solid middle class neighborhood in lf. disagree w/ hd re no-man’s land…a couple homes on the same street sold in the 7-800s last year.
I don’t think you can compare Lake Forest to Oakbrook. That is like comparing Lake in the Hills to Barrington.
Besides is there something in Oak Brook besides the mall? Is there a vibrant downtown area with good restaurants and bars? I’ve always just though of Oakbrook as the mall with the Hooters, Portillos etc that normally accomodate a mall.
“Besides is there something in Oak Brook besides the mall?”
1. Top rated schools (rated higher than LF)
2. No real estate taxes (county tax but no city tax)
3. Extreme privacy
4. Better access to all of chicagoland than virtually any other town (ie, I88, 294, 290, I55 all converge in this area)
These are all the things most buyers look for when choosing where they want to live. Any more questions?
Oak Brook is a different animal (spoken by someone who grew up near there and, actually, was just at the mall yesterday.)
It has big gated communities with large houses. But the kids all go to different suburban schools which makes it kind of strange. Some go to Downers Grove North. Some go to the Hinsdale schools.
If you like a downtown with shops/ambiance etc. – then it is not the area for you. You would choose Western Springs, Hinsdale, Clarendon Hills or LaGrange.
Most of the old classic towns on the train lines have similar ambiance (including those on the south side.) They were all built in the same era!
Good points Sabrina. I think I saw u in Nordstrom!
So Oakbrook is like a South Barrington – OK I get it.
The extreme privacy I don’t get. Its anchored by a mall
“The extreme privacy I don’t get. Its anchored by a mall”
uhhh – wtf are you talking about. The mall is a joke – only people outside of ob go to that mall. OB is actually the headquarters for many many many fortune 500 companies, regular companies, and many organizations – that is it’s claim to fame.
“1. Top rated schools (rated higher than LF)
2. No real estate taxes (county tax but no city tax)
3. Extreme privacy
4. Better access to all of chicagoland than virtually any other town (ie, I88, 294, 290, I55 all converge in this area)
These are all the things most buyers look for when choosing where they want to live. Any more questions?”
I won’t give you number 1 – the schools are fine, as good as any other suburb..not even as good as some naperville schools though. However, the ‘uber’ wealthy of oakbrook and lake forest would opt for private schools anyways.
2 and 3 i’ll give you. 4 i’ll give you too – but burr ridge has way better proximity to the city from 55, i think.
“uhhh – wtf are you talking about. The mall is a joke – only people outside of ob go to that mall. OB is actually the headquarters for many many many fortune 500 companies, regular companies, and many organizations – that is it’s claim to fame.”
The mall has sadly gone down hill in the past 10 years. I used to work at the abercrombie & fitch there when I was much younger and I rather liked it, especially in the summertime. I went there recently, and aside from Apple or Nordstrom, most of it is junk nowadays. There is a huge lacking of decent malls in chicago land though, not just oakbrook..something i’ve never been able to figure out. Old orchard sucks, woodfield mall sucks, oakrbook sucks, yorktown sucks…the only decent shopping is in the city in my opinion. Virtually no other moderate to large sized city has this problem.
“I won’t give you number 1 – the schools are fine, as good as any other suburb..not even as good as some naperville schools though. However, the ‘uber’ wealthy of oakbrook and lake forest would opt for private schools anyways.”
Look at the rankings of Brook Forest Elementar (the only elementary school), Butler Junior High (the only junior high in OB) and Hinsdale Central – then post….
Here is a link if you want to look at the rankings:
http://www.schooldigger.com/go/IL/schoolrank.aspx
@Riz, very interesting point. I have noticed the same thing. It seems the decent stores (I don’t mean anything high end) like Benetton which is a good cheap place to buy for teenagers have been disappearing and only really low quality ultra cheap stores popping up. I wonder if this is because of the fact middle class is getting poorer and poorer in this country or it is a consequence of the taste of people going to gutter. When I look at older houses in US (not talking about anything fancy here), they have real hard wood, nice quality wood work and all but the new stuff are just bigger with almost everything fake in them. I think the desire for more (quantity) has won over the desire for quality.
“the only decent shopping is in the city in my opinion.”
Yeah, because nothing screams class like shopping at filene’s basement on north michigan, checking out the new Target on state and then having dinner at the cheesecake factory at the hancock. My point is that the city really doesn’t have many different or unique stores when compared to the suburbs. This is just perception…. and it is a false one.
clio did you just limit dining choices downtown to The Cheesecake Factory? Downtown Chicago has some of the best and most varied eating choices in the world.
The shopping part I kinda agree with you on as it is pretty much dominated by the same chains everywhere in the U.S. Although if my wife heard you dis FIlenes it would not be good for you. Amazed me how she could spend 7 hours there in a day and walk out with 1 thing.
I’d say there are different and more unique stores. but I’d agree with you that most people shop at stuff that’s everywhere. like the gap.
I went to aldi today for the first time in a while. that place is a breeze compared to dominicks or jewel.
that’s impressive ze, more than 15min in filenes or marshalls and I want to die
“Virtually no other moderate to large sized city has this problem.”
Riz- helicopter into the Stanford Shopping Center sometime (in Palo Alto) and tell me that isn’t a smaller version of the Oak Brook Mall! Same stores even (and not even as nice of a mall- in my opinion.)
The stores are the same in every major city (and their suburbs.)
Although- if you live in a secondary city you’re really hurting for the Lululemons and things like that. If you live in Tulsa- you have to drive to Dallas for that.
Chicago has very nice boutiques- just like other cities- in Bucktown, Lincoln Park (though the recession really hammered Armitage), Southport and Andersonville (for furniture/home goods.) You just have to look around. There are people who make a living giving “shopping tours” to tourists of these neighborhoods.
Wow Clio, how can you compare the burb shopping options to all the stores on Michigan Ave.? BTW, Filenes has some good stuff for very nice prices once in while.
I once bought a pair of Bottega Veneta boots there that was even cheaper than outlet prices you get in Italy after Befana (the winter sale).
Ze, I already like your wife. If we ever have a CCer meet and greet, you should bring her.
BTW, ch you should always apply a discount factor of at least 5 and often 10 to any shopping insinuations a husband makes both in terms of the time the wife spends at a store and the amount she spends. As a repeated victim of such slander myself, I can assure you of the fact ; )
No seriously, she can walk in after lunch and have the store closed on her. Forever 21 is just as bad and is by far her favrite, she would go there daily. Truth is the damage was always minimal. Sadly I can almost do the same in a supermarket but I think the stoner part plays big on looking at all those items, stoned and choosing between more than 1 or 2 choices is a tremendous experience.
I miss the shopping in the states very much. Horrendous quality on everything, all in bad taste, and absurdly expensive down here.
“Yeah, because nothing screams class like shopping at filene’s basement on north michigan, checking out the new Target on state and then having dinner at the cheesecake factory at the hancock. My point is that the city really doesn’t have many different or unique stores when compared to the suburbs. This is just perception…. and it is a false one.”
Clio, this is my principle problem with your arguments. you are in the business of using extreme and uncommon examples to make your ‘point’. Just as there is more old money in oakbrook than lake forest, now michigan avenue is as commercialized as the junk shopping in oakbrook. Could you please point me to the nearest bloomingdales, Barneys, barney’s co-op, club Monaco, Marc Jacobs, Zegna, or likewise in oakbrook? I don’t think so. Or wait, do you have an Alinea, Sunda, Epic, Schwa, Trotter’s, Il Mulino, Drawing Room, Sixteen, or likewise in oakbrook? Didn’t think so. The Eating and shopping options in your ‘hood are very limited compared to the city – I’m not even mentioning the smaller boutiques in Bucktown or LP, just the big name stuff here. Aside from Neimann Marcus you don’t have much high-end anything left in oakbrook.
“Riz- helicopter into the Stanford Shopping Center sometime (in Palo Alto) and tell me that isn’t a smaller version of the Oak Brook Mall! Same stores even (and not even as nice of a mall- in my opinion.)’
I felt that Stanford was much nicer than oakbrook. Aside from the small strip of OB mall near Neimann’s and the Tiffany’s store, the mall is deteriorating big time..Especially compared to other high end malls around the country – take the Beverly Center for example, in LA. Or look outside of Cali to Texas, and the galleria malls. Even Detroit has the somerset collection ;
http://www.thesomersetcollection.com
I understand that Nordstroms, Macys, and the standard string stores plague a lot of the same malls, but the quality of the mall itself just lacks in chicago…the malls tend to be much nicer in other places ( especially in Cities that rival chicago)
Again, not a huge deal to me, i do all my shopping in the city, as you mentioned, at smaller boutiques and occasionally at the department stores…just on observation i made as far as malls go.
“Look at the rankings of Brook Forest Elementar (the only elementary school), Butler Junior High (the only junior high in OB) and Hinsdale Central – then post…”
Yes. I know – still my point stands. Hinsdale is a good school – but it isn’t even oakbrook’s high school, oakbrook doesnt HAVE a high school, it shares amongst the neighboring ones. If you’re lucky, that’s central, if you’re not , it could be York. As far as elementary school goes, most my family in the OB area sends their kids to the montessori so i’m pretty clueless on those.
Riz – wtf are you talking about (with regards to SO many subjects)?:
1. Stanford mall vs Oak Brook mall – you talk as if you know wtf you are saying – but I actually live in Oak Brook and actually went to Stanford – and you cannot compare the two. Stanford mall is TINY compared to Oak Brook and does NOT have the variety of stores that Oak Brook has.
2. Oak Brook schools – there is no “luck” in living in the Hinsdale Central school district. You know this ahead of time. Only a very small percentage of OB goes to York or Downers – the majority go to Hinsdale Central.
3. Oak Brook Schools – I posted a link to compare all of illinois grade, junior and high schools. Take a look at it before re-posting nonsense. Oak Brook and Hinsdale rank far ahead of any schools you were talking about.
Riz – I don’t have anything against you personally – but when you are wrong and PROVEN wrong – you have to admit it.
“As far as elementary school goes, most my family in the OB area sends their kids to the montessori so i’m pretty clueless on those.”
Well then shut the f up…. and furthermore, do you REALLY have true “family” in Oak Brook or is it more of the Indian version of “family” where everyone you know is an “aunt”or “uncle” – because if it is the latter – I highly doubt they discuss these issues in depth with you – so again, shut the f up – go talk about ohio or michigan or whatever desolate area you came from.
“1. Stanford mall vs Oak Brook mall – you talk as if you know wtf you are saying – but I actually live in Oak Brook and actually went to Stanford – and you cannot compare the two. Stanford mall is TINY compared to Oak Brook and does NOT have the variety of stores that Oak Brook has.
2. Oak Brook schools – there is no “luck” in living in the Hinsdale Central school district. You know this ahead of time. Only a very small percentage of OB goes to York or Downers – the majority go to Hinsdale Central.
3. Oak Brook Schools – I posted a link to compare all of illinois grade, junior and high schools. Take a look at it before re-posting nonsense. Oak Brook and Hinsdale rank far ahead of any schools you were talking about.
Riz – I don’t have anything against you personally – but when you are wrong and PROVEN wrong – you have to admit it.”
1. Really? Stanford Mall has louis vuitton , tiffany’s, and neimann’s – just like oabrook. ( minus LV ) Except it’s much nicer in my opinion, that’s all. It is smaller though. I didn’t think bigger = better
2/3 – yes, but oakbrook doesn’t have it’s own high school. as i stated in my original post, ‘good school’ is a relative term as many suburbs have good schools, and many in oakbrook send their children to private schools. Naperville has excellent schools as well, though they aren’t ranked as high as central, not arguing with you there.
And where is your response to anything else i’ve said in response to your idiotic posts regarding shopping in oakbrook vs. the city? If anyone on this website has given you a fair shake clio, it’s been Me. All you’ve done is proven you’re a jerk – so why don’t you shut the ‘f’ up with your fake lambo and condos. Yes, i said it. i don’t believe you. People who are so ‘high class’ dont have such gutter mouths and attitudes. And in case you’re wondering ; i’ll still take your POS gallardo to our f-430 any day, all day, every day. Tomorrow?
“Stanford mall is TINY compared to Oak Brook and does NOT have the variety of stores that Oak Brook has”
yeah, i think it has like 15-20 less stores..120 vs 140 probably is a guess..And oakbrook has Sears and Sears AutoCenter listed as 2 of it’s stores…so yeah.
“urthermore, do you REALLY have true “family” in Oak Brook or is it more of the Indian version of “family” where everyone you know is an “aunt”or “uncle” ”
Ps, just to spread some knowledge – the term ‘aunt’ or ‘uncle’ is used out of respect for all elders; not to signify one as a ‘family’ member. No indian person would claim a family friend as a family member just because they are referred to as ‘uncle’. Idiot.
Clio,
if your a sample of Oak Brook, then extrapolated, I dont know how anyone would want to live there.
It would then Oak Brook seems like a really shytie place to live and socialize.
I am truly glad i made the right chioces in life and didnt end up there.
Groove ,
he’s not. Most of the people that live there are nice enough and mind their own business. They aren’t loudmouthed or show-offs, typically quiet professional families with some extra $.
Riz you just haven’t been let in on the joke as to where the name Clio comes from http://www.renault.com.br/Master.aspx?column=2&idSecao=365&idCarro=1
What’s so great about the Beverly center? Or the Houston or Dallas gallerias? Better dining options, probably, but beyond that, what, exactly, sets them apart?
The mall business pretty well dictates that most of the tenants will be national retailers that are present in pretty much every mall of similar size and market segment. To get something “special” you have to look smaller, rather than to these regional/ super regional malls being discussed. Especially when the malls are owned/managed one of the big mall companies–OB is GGP, Stanford, the TX gallerias are Simon, Bev Ctr is Taubman– they all trade primarily in the same set of tenants, and they all end up pretty much the same unless they are very big or very small.
“What’s so great about the Beverly center? Or the Houston or Dallas gallerias? Better dining options, probably, but beyond that, what, exactly, sets them apart?”
i felt that those malls are all nicer, better maintained and updated, etc..
“Groove ,
he’s not. Most of the people that live there are nice enough and mind their own business. They aren’t loudmouthed or show-offs, typically quiet professional families with some extra $.”
I know that but you do have to agree the percentages of clio types are higher in the 20 mile radius than others.
and oakbrook mall has a way higher percentage of golddigger/trophy wife/15+age gap wife than any other area in chicago land.
“i felt that those malls are all nicer, better maintained and updated, etc.”
The malls are all owned by the same 2 or 3 companies. So that’s why they’re all the same (nationwide.) Oak Brook Mall was built when, in the 1960s? or 1970s? So that’s the only difference. It might be a little older than some of the others.
Stanford Shopping Mall isn’t “nicer”- it’s just a little smaller. That is it. Go to both in the summer time and you wouldn’t know any difference. Ditto for the Walnut Creek mall in the east bay (also an outdoor mall). Ditto for Tyson’s Corner in the DC suburbs (indoor mall though.)
‘Stanford Shopping Mall isn’t “nicer”- it’s just a little smaller. That is it. Go to both in the summer time and you wouldn’t know any difference. Ditto for the Walnut Creek mall in the east bay (also an outdoor mall). Ditto for Tyson’s Corner in the DC suburbs (indoor mall though.)’
I can see what you’re saying, I think a part of it also has to do with the fact that i’ve been shopping at the local malls since I was younger and they’ve been the same aesthetically for yaers. hence impressed with the shiny new malls in other cities.
“I know that but you do have to agree the percentages of clio types are higher in the 20 mile radius than others.
and oakbrook mall has a way higher percentage of golddigger/trophy wife/15+age gap wife than any other area in chicago land.”
Agreed. One of our neighbors in oakbrook was this salon – guy mario tricoci, and he and his son are both super – jerks..there are definitely more of them around in that neighborhood.
Mall, shmall. Malls are temples to conspicuous consumerism. If your entire community’s worth is tied to what stores are in your mall, that seems a very sad civic marker to use as a claim to fame or status, much less desirability as a place to live. In other words, if you’re all about SHOPPING and STUFF, then malls and what’s in them is important. I’m not, and it isn’t.
Sure, local business is important to any community, but c’mon…
“In other words, if you’re all about SHOPPING and STUFF, then malls and what’s in them is important. I’m not, and it isn’t. ”
But logansq,
the more you buy the more people you are putting to work, we need you to spend more to help out.
*now who’s economy we help is debatable 🙂
http://www.deadmalls.com/
This is where malls go to die.
Regional Malls aren’t important as they were in the 70’s and 80’s when they became the replacement for local downtowns. The trends are now to big-boxes, and many malls have been demalled, turned inside/out into big-boxes, etc. and there is a website devoted to dead malls: deadmalls.com
Arguing about malls is sort of meaningless. That said, Oakbrook and Old Orchard are still better than 95% of the malls operating in America. I think most NoCA malls aren’t as good, for two reasons: 1) people are less into shopping, California values grunge, casual looks and people have more outdoor diversions/activities there than shopping at a regional mall; 2) NoCA (despite the few Silicon Valley types that hit big) has population that is cash-poor and has less DISPOSABLE cash because of their housing costs and cost-of-living there. The mall on 101 is “rich” (not really) Marin County is lame compared Oak Brook’s.
Oak Brook is to Hinsdale and Hinsdale HS as Northfield is to Winnetka and New Trier, no big deal that Northfield doesn’t have its own high school either.
funny you posted that too HD, I hadn’t seen your post!
I’ve never aspired to live in Oak Brook. Actually if someone said they were from Oak Brook I would have no good or bad impression. Just Neutral. It doesn’t give off the same impression as a Hinsdale or North Shore. Maybe there are some pimped out cribs and alot of Lambo’s rolling around…I don’t know.
Lake Forest Yes, but Oak Brook sorry but No.
“It’s good that you want to stop name-calling.”
Sure. Where are your responses to my questions? As far as the first shut the ‘f’ up goes it was just a play on what clio said.
You shouldn’t be scared to post what you constantly allude to, as ugly as it may be, Dan.
I’m not scared. I’m telling you that since it’s obvious that there are people/groups that bug you, and that you don’t want to see or have to associate with at a restaurant — that there’s a helluva lot of folks thinking the same about having to be around you. You never contemplate that you can be as ugly and undesirable, if not moreso, than those you critique and dismiss, do you? It’s laughable.
“as ugly as it may be”
dan you are clearly a racist troll. i don’t know why anybody responds to your comments.
and fyi, in case you decide to make assumptions about me, i am white and have ancestors that fought in the revolutionary war.
Wife and i actually like to eat at the webber grill out buy the mall twice a year.
some call that place cheesy, but i still have not been disappointing by the service or quality of food there.
*BTW i got a look from a guy waiting for take out there, maybe it was because of my race?
emma: I could care less about your views, you’re entitled to whatever ideas you hold. That doesn’t make them any more/less flawed than anyone else’s. I complimented Oak Brook Butterfield Road restaurants and their clientele because I saw good-looking people (i.e. women) and had to defend this point-of-view from someone who didn’t tolerate it because it didn’t fit his particular/myopic point-of-view about how people/lemmings should rank eating establishments!!! Sorry if it bothers some people, not much I can do about that. Different strokes…. that’s why there are more restaurants in Chicago than just Sunda, Epic, etc.
What’s so great about the Beverly center? Or the Houston or Dallas gallerias
Much hotter girls walking thru…
troll.
I takes one to know one.
sorry ze, not you. dan has had lots of racist comments removed by sabrina, but still tries to set the bait every chance he gets.
Please stop now. I have removed all the personal attacks and discussion about who eats in the restaurants on Butterfield Road.
Let’s discuss real estate, shall we?
It’s not bait. There is an implicit assumption that Sunda, Epic and these places are SUPERIOR than suburban locales. I’m suggesting that lemmings make up their own minds instead of buying into the propaganda.
I’ve been to most of these River North places and find the crowd has little-to-nothing in common, the cliques don’t talk with each other, and there is a dearth of girls that I find attractive or someone that I’d consider for a mate or to bring into my family. I ate out at Grotto on Butterfield and liked the crowd. Call me racist, I could care less. The “crowd” is a factor alot of people choose when frequenting a place, esp. single people. There are tons of single people in Chicago, who can’t meet anyone despite trying for YEARS at these RN places. Gee, try someplace else?
All this talk about restaurants is making hungry.
making me hungry!
You have to be in the city to get a USDA Prime steak, because you know, the suburban restaurants ucan’t get that grade of beef and the minimum-wage cooks turning it over on the grill are soooo different. The Grey Goose vodka is better in River North than the suburbs too. Do they have Red Bull in the suburbs?
steak……yummy….
HD all I can do to help is say Gale St Inn or Twin Anchors?
I’m a big fan of nine. (n9ne). awesome steak. on that note, all ive eaten the past 2 days is hospital cafeteria food…and now i have gynecology clinic from 2-10. Just lost my appetite. good day all.
I’m glad the burbs finally started getting good quality restaurants along Butterfield. My parents wanted to try out “that new Mexican place” – Uncle Julio’s Hacienda.
Oh and don’t forget – it is Restaurant Week. Support your eateries!
Wicker: There are plenty of Pasadita-type taquerias all across the suburbs in the older mini-malls. My favorite Mexican place, is one where the chef isn’t Mexican and you won’t find any Mexicans eating inside: Topolobambo. LOL!!
Dan, but you leave out he closes it every year to travel to Mexico with his entire staff and it is some of the most authentic Mexican food in the entire U.S.
I can also say first hand probably the hardest cookbook I ever used.
Dan and Ze,
check out is “panera” type fast food place at macy’s at old orchard. You get his quality and flavor for 1/3 of the cost. When at Old orchard we always eat there.
(ok maybe not you ze but if your every back in the states check it out)
I get annoyed at the suburban steak houses when they have 3/4 of the parking lot coned off for valet and then make you pay $7 to valet.
WTF is that all about. If I want to valet I’ll go to the city.
“HD all I can do to help is say Gale St Inn or Twin Anchors?”
That answer is easy – Honky Tonk in Pilsen.
Honky tonk in pilsen is amazing.
I also don’t understand valet in the burbs…why would i pay for someone to park my car literally 20 feet from where i pull in?
Groove, what’s this panera place at old orchard? is it owned by bayless, or just a similar taste?
Riz
its called frontera grill (IIRC) and its a bayless extension. they have a few in macy’s around the US i was told. next time at old orchard check it out.
if you see a couple with a kid and the kid is devouring a tamale and saying “ummmmm” after each bite. thats us!
also Riz,
if in the Jefferson Park hood Gale st Inn is a must,
(Milkster went last time she was in chicago and likes it.)
Thanks groove, i’ll be out for work right by old orchard tomorrow, i’m going to make sure and scope it out!