Market Conditions: Will State Budget and CPS Chaos Impact the Green Zone Housing Market?
This is one of the hottest housing markets that Chicago has ever seen…in the Green Zone.
The entire city isn’t as hot as it was in 2005-2007, but in certain Green Zone neighborhoods, the price is well past peak with multiple offers, bidding wars, buying sight unseen and other nonsense association with super hot housing markets.
In many of the listings in certain neighborhoods you would see the mention of the school such as “it’s in the highly desirable Nettlehorst school district” or “it’s in Blaine” or “it’s an affordable option in Bell.”
But now, some of the teachers and principals are fleeing CPS and heading to the suburbs.
According to the Chicago Tribune, Lake View high school principal Scott Grens is going to Lincolnwood:
The School Board announced Thursday that Lake View High School principal Scott Grens would be the new principal of Rutledge Hall for the 2016-17 school year.
Rutledge Hall is an elementary school serving about 400 students in grades 3 through 5.
And nearby Lane Tech principal Kathryn Anderson, who had been principal for less than a year, is going to Deerfield. From DNA Info:
“It is with a heavy heart that I am writing to inform you that I have accepted a new position outside of the district, as the principal at Deerfield High School effective July 1, 2016,” Anderson said.
“While I look forward to the opportunities that await me, I will never forget my experiences at Lane that have shaped my educational outlook,” she said.
According to the job posting for the Deerfield postion, the principal’s job paid “in the range of $165,000 plus an excellent comprehensive benefits package.” According to CPS data, her salary at Lane Tech was $134,511 plus benefits as of March of 2016.
Lane Tech is one of the largest high schools in the state.
Over the past 15 years, home buyers in the Green Zone have been sold the idea that CPS was turning around and that families didn’t need to move to the suburbs for the schools anymore.
It’s not a surprise that home prices in both Bell and Blaine are now among the highest in the city as that’s where Blaine and Bell, highly touted neighborhood elementary schools, are located.
Is that narrative about to change?
Could it be the state budget problems, and not the Fed or a recession, that cools off the Green Zone housing market?
From what I’ve seen in UMC hoods, budget shortfalls will be picked up by those using the services (ie parents). Though likely not happily
Guessing that the Admin that can get out see the writing on the wall and dont want to deal with
1) Karen Lewis playing fuck-fuck games
2) Pissed off parents because of #1/strikes/additional fees/etc
3) Reduced budgets
Can confirm the market is very warm. My place is under contract to sell for well over the previous peak price. Practically everything in the area is going for record prices. Low interest rates and an almost record stock market mean it’s easy to stretch your budget or purchase with all cash. The only other option in my area is to pay a considerable amount to rent a place, and a good number of people I know consider that to be “throwing money down a drain” (their words, not mine). With regards to the school issue, boomers and dink’s could care less.
My opinion is that parental and community involvement drives school performance more than one principal or a few administrators. Yes, it helps, but nothing replaces parents and high performance expectations.
I can understand why they would consider a job outside of the district… under Karen Lewis’s leadership of the teacher’s union, I’m surprised more teachers aren’t bolting as well.
Lost a good friend i grew up with he just sold his chicago place and is on to deerfield. Loosing a good neighbor to the burbs once their place sells.
Both of them are leaving for the same reason. They are sick and tired of the uncertainty, many CPS schools are good and even good neighborhood schools outperform burb schools. but its the constant cuts/strikes/uncertainty and being used as political pawns and political media posturing that most are fed up with.
Even the Groove family, if it happens, once its official that our school gets cut 15% or more then next week both of our places will be on the market and will be listed at absolute steal prices.
My teacher friends say that they would never work for CPS, despite the salary being higher than their private school jobs.
I think parents are nuts to put their kids through the CPS system now. One of my coworkers just moved to the suburbs because his kid was bored/unchallenged at a magnet school. She is now struggling in the new school because the kids are so far ahead of her in math and science.
We are moving to Oak Park in a few weeks and there are few reasons that drove our move.
1. We can get a better layout for our money there.
2. CPS Uncertainty with local schools.
3. With the tax increase, our taxes in the city will be on par with OP.
4. Rents are great and we were able to get what we wanted for our unit.
And so we are out. I’m more bummed then my husband, who grew up in Chicago and attended CPS, even though I grew up in Oak Park. I think we could’ve made it work, and am terrified of our increased commute, but we get more in OP with our money. It just seems like a better deal. At least I’ll still be on the Green Line…
Jenny,
Of my anecdotal evidence it has shown the opposite, kids were bored with the basic math, reading as they were ahead of the burb schools kids. But where mind blown with all the arts and extra curricular since stuff at the burb school.
Anne,
As to your number 3, city wont be on par with OP taxes as OP has one if not top 3 percentage tax rates in the state. And dont be fooled as everyone in the state with be getting a nice tax increase, and cook county will feel it the worst.
Wish you luck on the move, don’t worry about the commute unless it was only 5 minutes before the move it will be a breeze.
hasn’t in the past, probably won’t in the future
I can’t imagine people all of a sudden enjoying commuting more, although the advancements in automated transportation and remote working could obviously affect things going forward, but the green zone neighborhoods are increasing in value and population still with all the warts.
The city has been much worse in the past and its still improving believe it or not, don’t buy all the bullshit the negative papers are spewing daily, eventually shit will get figured out. Or it wont
Jenny,
Of my anecdotal evidence it has shown the opposite, kids were bored with the basic math, reading as they were ahead of the burb schools kids. But were mind blown with all the arts and extra curricular science stuff at the burb school.
Anne,
As to your number 3, city won’t be on par with OP taxes as OP has one if not top 3 percentage tax rates in the state. And don’t be fooled as everyone in the state with be getting a nice tax increase, and cook county will feel it the worst.
Wish you luck on the move, don’t worry about the commute unless it was only 5 minutes before the move it will be a breeze.
My grandmother and grandfather left Chicago in 1963 because CPS schools were terrible and they didn’t want to pay for private schools. fast forward 50 years later and nothing has changed.
I’m sure the young professional class and empty nesters will continue to flock to the city for its vibrancy. However, I still think the inner burbs are well positioned. I still see a lot of people leaving the city for greener pastures when children come into the picture though.
Being in Oak Park with a kid now, there is no way I’d trade what I have for the city. I have a decent sized house, something like 8 or 9 play grounds within blocks of my house, good public schools k-12, tree lined streets for miles, multiple large parks, gymnastics center, public pool, ice skating rink, trailside museum, multiple transportation options, farmers markets, restaurants and other amenities, coffee shops, etc Even have a weed dispensary opening up downtown.
All of this stuff is literally in walking distance of my house. If I ever want to go to the lake or other city things, I can do so easily with none of the headache of actually living in the city.
Flame away…
I see more families moving into my neighborhood (University Village), despite the local school option being unusable. It’s a great place for kids. There are two playgrounds and multiple parks. Getting downtown takes about 10 minutes, but the neighborhood is generally quiet and kids can run amok.
Anne:
“With the tax increase, our taxes in the city will be on par with OP.”
Only because you bought a house with a much lower assessed value. Last year’s OP taxes were about 75% higher than Chicago’s.
If Chicago property taxes went up 75%, there wouldn’t be a budget problem at either the city or CPS.
“don’t worry about the commute”
Groove: Did you miss this part:
“still be on the Green Line…”
Green Line thru the westside is definitely hairy, except at peak commute times. If it’s after maybe 6:30, especially in the winter, I’d seriously suggest avoiding.
Oh, and the answer to the question posed in the post is “probably yes”. There’s been a notable slowdown in SFH sales around me. And folks (realtors, seller, prospective buyers) are blaming it on the school uncertainty.
I think that it is *partly* the school thing, but also largely that $1.75m is a lot of money for a house, and there are certainly rumblings in segments of the economy of a slowdown on the horizon.
“Flame away…”
Sorry Russ but you opened it :),
Well for one you live in what most would call a bubble or island (i call it a peninsula) as three sides of Oak Park/River Forest is adjacent to the worst areas in Illinois. Yes I included Berwyn as the third side.
Also The Peoples Repuplic of Oak Park has more socialist rules than an out of control lake shore drive Co-Op board. Maybe even the defunct country of Venezuela.
OP even controls renters and landlords. Doesnt everything rented have to go through one OP organization so they can force diversify the renter population?
The tree lined streets are more of the Peoples Rebulic of Oak Park rules, look up what is needed if you just want to trim a dang tree there.
Oh Gosh, dont try to park on the street overnight! I think you have to call the Queen for special one night blessing and only one night or they ask you to sacrifice you next born for the second night.
Then with the second highest property tax rate you should get all that stuff but still end up with a average High School with gang problems.
Full disclosure: We almost bought in River Forest a while back. And would still probably move to OP/RF if it wasn’t part of cook county. 🙂
“Groove: Did you miss this part:
Green Line thru the westside is definitely hairy, except at peak commute times. If it’s after maybe 6:30, especially in the winter, I’d seriously suggest avoiding.”
You can just metra on off hours or off hours just drive.
Still confused why CTA hasn’t bumped up police presence on that line knowing all the issue it has had the past 5 years?
The market is slowing down I think because prices are getting high and buyers are getting discouraged. The market has also a large number of marginally qualified buyers. I’m sure many realtors and brokers in middle class and marginal areas will attest to this. This is also correlating with the major uptick in the subprime auto loan market in the past few years….
I’m seeing people trying to buy new homes three years to the day after their previous foreclosure wrapped up and they are getting qualified with little money down. It honestly breaks my heart to see these goofs overpay for housing not once in their lives, but twice now.
I think one of the larger issues driving the marginal buyers is that rent is “too damn high”. Renting during the 2000-2008 boom and into the recession was a steal; I had a 2 bedroom on the NW side for less than $1,000 a month. When I moved in 2011/2012 my landlord painted the apartment, updated the kitchen with a new stove, and jacked up rent nearly 75%. I saw my former landlord a few months ago and he said he was renting the unit for double what I was paying when I left.
Some clients are telling me in the middle class burbs its cheaper to buy a SFH, even at today’s bubble prices, than it is to pay rent on a 2 bedroom apartment. There’s new ‘luxury’ apartments going up around …uh…my old house (before I moved to Kildeer)…that are asking $3,200 a month for a 2/2 on a busy street!
http://www.livetheparker.com/park-ridge-il-apartments/the-parker/
how this will all play out? Who knows at this point, but flocking to the ‘burbs isn’t the cheap panacea it used to be.
“My grandmother and grandfather left Chicago in 1963 because CPS schools were terrible and they didn’t want to pay for private schools”
bullshit, they left because black people moved into their neighborhood
Groove,
1) Commuting on the green line isn’t too bad. Yeah, it goes through some sketchy areas, but I haven’t had any issue in 10 years. yeah, don’t bury your head in your facebook app and not be aware of your surroundings but that goes for any part of the city imho. Honestly, I stopped riding the El because I can drive just as fast downtown so there is no real advantage to taking the El.
2) Being a minority, I like the diversity of Oak Park. I like that I can freely walk down streets without someone calling the cops on me for “looking out of place”. I think most of my neighbors are refuges from the city like Logan Square. Every 30 or 40 something guy seems to have a tattoo sleeve now.
3) Austin doesn’t bother me too much. Most of the hood rats don’t cross Austin Blvd. Yeah, you get the occasional petty theft, etc but the reality is that it is two different worlds. It is city living. If you want to be insulated, you have to move much further out.
4) I love the overnight parking rules. It keeps the streets clean and uncluttered. You always get that one person who wants to park his broke 1979 van on the street for weeks at a time until he can afford a new alternator.
5) The taxes are high, but I do feel I am getting my money’s worth. I can see and use the benefits. With that said, a small group of parents are trying to convince the village to spend somethign like $40 million on some new pool for the high school for the special snowflakes on the swim team. Even spend and tax libs here are finding that hard to swallow.
6) The high school is fine. It is only “average” compared to some of the other burbs because we have something called diversity of incomes and race which a lot of suburbs don’t have.
“With regards to the school issue, boomers and dink’s could care less.”
As one half of a DINK relationship, I would disagree with this assessment. While my wife and I aren’t concerned about kids and not planning any, the school where our home was located was definitely something we discussed as a factor when purchasing. If we sell, we would want to appeal to as many buyers as possible.
Russ,
to your bullet points;
1. Yes but most folk dont understand and didnt grow up learning the barometer we have keeping our head on a swivel. the ones who get their stuff ganked are the ones who grew up in naperville, lived in wrigleyville and are now in OP. they never had the need for or obtained the knowledge of who is what and when to be on a alert. That said i cant remember the last time i took the green line or any train for that matter. Parking is cheap, traffic is not bad when you know the secret routes, and not being around the unwashed masses is priceless.
2. Agreed its as close to Atalanta proper, in that regards, as you would get in the midwest. Also the tattoo sleeve is just the modern iteration of the barbwire bicep tattoo.
3. Austin isnt the one that would bother me, its maywood folks that i would be more worried about.
4. and the brainwashing has already taken over 🙂
5. I can’t see The Peoples Republic of OP dropping 40mil if its only for the HS unless everyone gets to use it. But seeing that Swimming is taking off in the midwest we only have a few good pools in the chicagoland area that can hold competitive meets. Lincolnshire, Naperville, Palitine (outdoors i think), New Trier, and Aurora.
6. Diversity of income in OP is not as great as you think, Aurora/Naperville is more income diverse, so is Des Plaines. Also Des plaines/Niles is more diverse on race/ethnicity/religion.
“Aurora/Naperville”
By that, you mean the Aurora part of “Naperville”? Bc the Napervillains really look down on that psrt of town.
I have inlaws that will not take the Metra from the Aurora station as its “very sketchy” so they drive extra far to the Route 59 station… nor will they pick us up from Aurora if we took the train out there
da fuq is wrong with people
@anon. I’ve never really been frightened of the trains, as I grew up off the Blue Line, so the Green doesn’t scare me. I may also learn how to take the Metra.
For the taxes, yes we were under-taxed, but, as Russ says, it seems like we don’t GET anything for them. I’ve called for years to get the potholes in the alleys filled. Eventually a neighbor did it himself. A few weeks for graffiti. I’d like to KNOW that I can call the city and get a response.
For the parking rules, my Grandpa used to tell me about growing up in OP and how he ‘hated’ the rule change when he was a teen because he couldn’t ‘smoke whatever and run away from the cops between the cars’. It also is just a way to distinguish between Chicago and Oak Park, like the street lights.
The pool thing is ridiculous. That said, they were a POS 15 years ago and needs to be fixed. Why it can’t be the cheapest option, though, I don’t get.
People can swim on their own time, using their own money. Schools shouldn’t need to provide swimming pools. Kids hate the mandatory swim classes anyway.
“grew up off the Blue Line, so the Green doesn’t scare me”
Based on friends in OP, Blue Line is better than Green Line in off hours.
“I’ve called for years to get the potholes in the alleys filled.”
You were nobody nobody sent. And why would they fill alley potholes, when they can’t get street potholes fixed? I’m just hoping for all the asphalt to crumble off my alley, so water will drain away from my garage better.
Anyway, your statement was that the taxes will be on par, and that’s just not true.
I was surprised by the police recently. A god damned truck driver left his stupid truck idling while moving someone in at 11pm. I called the police and they came by and made the mover turn his truck off.
“Bc the Napervillains really look down on that psrt of town”
“Aurora station as its “very sketchy” so they drive extra far to the Route 59 station”
And really who gives a flying F….. what anyone from naperville thinks or feels. they are from/in naperville enough said.
Anne,
Right idea to call, wrong placed called. City aint doing shyte unless its a emergency. Always bug the crap out of your Alderman, most are just 15 votes away from losing next term. Bug those useless bastardos until it gets done.
And like anon(ufo) said, they need to fix the dang potholes on the major streets first, then finally get to the side streets before they even think about ignoring the alleys.
And come on, we are out of the frost cycle for about 2 months now streets and sanitation needs to get their arses moving i swear we lost three kids and the crazy old cat lady to china in the whole we got on our street. You can look down the pot hole and still see her walker jammed down there. (only one tennis ball though)
So when we first moved to Oak Park, a big huge oak tree in front of our house had been cut down. All that was left was the big stump.
Wife calls the village and ask if village could replace the tree. Nice lady asks what kind of tree we want. Wife says something with flowers.
Two weeks later we get home and the tree stump has been removed and planted was a nice tree that blooms white flowers every spring.
It is little shit like that why I don’t necessarily mind the tax bill.
I’ve had good luck with reporting pot holes and what not. Just recently, the city came out and removed an ugly abandoned bike that I reported.
Sonies, you goof, white flight didn’t happen much on the northwest side. south or west side, sure. but not the northwest side.
We looked at Oak Park. The taxes are crazy high like rates at least 2x higher a similar house in Chicago. Home prices aren’t doing that well either out there. No thanks.
“We looked at Oak Park. The taxes are crazy high like rates at least 2x higher a similar house in Chicago. Home prices aren’t doing that well either out there. No thanks.”
Vlajos- where’d you end up?
It’s my understanding that ALL of the upscale inner suburbs have high taxes (Evanston, Park Ridge, Oak Park).
Yeah, I’ve been reporting for a while now on how Lake View’s SFH inventory is rising. Check out the first graph: http://lucidrealty.com/lakeview.php That’s getting pretty high. This could actually be the very early signs of an exodus of the highest income folks for precisely this reason.
park ridge taxes are actually lower than surrounding suburbs. the city is ran by cheapskates but it sure does keep taxes down.
I have a diverse learner so I have to go too. I’m thinking about Park Ridge but then why not just consider leaving this fricking state and going to Indiana. It’s hard to figure out where the good schools are though.
I’d much rather be in Park Ridge than practically anywhere in Indiana. However, I’d rather be almost anywhere in Wisconsin than living in most suburbs in the Chicago area and for that matter, anywhere else downstate (including western IL). The formula for figuring out good schools in the suburbs is easy – the wealthier towns have better schools. Not always, but generally so. You’ll be just fine anywhere there are professional households. Things start getting sketchy when you have an area with nice homes that feed into awful school districts (areas of Palatine for example) and then you have to be careful and do your research.
We are loosing another family in our hood. Talking to them at the park last night they are going to be listing soon and moving out to the Algonquin/Huntley area. The wife is a CPS teacher and had to stay in the City limits, she will be quitting and be a stay at home till the last kid gets HS age.
They stated the same reasons as everyone I talk to does, its the every year uncertainty.
When will the idiots in power realize that STABILITY is the key point?
Just do what needs to be done for stability for the next 10 years (or more) regardless of how bad it will be ONE TIME, and stop putting your finger in the leaks that pop up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Just do what needs to be done for stability for the next 10 years (or more) regardless of how bad it will be ONE TIME”
Um, what is needed (along with statewide K-12 funding reform) is a big increase (like 25% or more) in the CPS levy, either through the regular levy (which would require a referendum, or state law change), or thru the return of a pension levy and an increase in the building levy. Basically, another 15%+ increase to the property tax bill.
*That* isn’t one time pain, it’s pain every July. And attempting to reduce that pain (to maybe a 5% increase) is why we are where we are.
And the reason that that is not Rahm’s strategy is that Daley’s deal for control of CPS *really* screwed CPS and future Chicagoans, and he has needed to create this current crisis to try to claw back some of the billions (yes, billions) that CPS has been shortchanged compared to the rest of the state’s school districts. Rahm would rather have the “one time” pain of the current instability, rather than have all future Chicagoans paying for Daley’s bad deal and subsequent wussiness in not demanding the state live up to the ‘agreement’ on pension funds.
It’s interesting. I see more families moving in to my neighborhood. Another family with kids just moved into a townhouse a week ago. I assume they are using private schools. I would much rather stay in the city because of the commute, but I see the appeal of the North Shore. It would be nice to move somewhere without crime. It seems like the hoodlums are expanding their areas of operation to expensive neighborhoods.
CPS has more than enough money to solve its problems without any state help or property tax increase.
Decrease salaries by 25%, close more schools, increase class sizes, cut sports and gym class, get rid of the security guards and expel students who pose a problem, force parents to contribute to their kids’ education through required donations, stop providing school buses, get rid of the main CPS management and let each school run itself.
“CPS has more than enough money to solve its problems without any state help or property tax increase.”
No, it doesn’t. Unless the $$ is spent on relocating 50% of the kids’ families to Alabama.
“increase class sizes”
The large size of CPS classes is one of “its problems”, so that’s not a fix for “CPS’s problems”.
“cut gym class”
That’s a state mandate, so would require “state help”
“force parents to contribute to their kids’ education through required donations”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You realize that like 50% of CPS parents are on some sort of public assistance, so that’s effectively asking for “state help”. Most of the “good” schools have school fees now, so that’s already there, in most of the schools where most of the parents can do it.
“Basically, another 15%+ increase to the property tax bill. *That* isn’t one time pain, it’s pain every July”
True, but its Stability. The real question is 15% would stick or would the open hands want more 3 years later?
“And the reason that that is not Rahm’s strategy is that Daley’s deal for control of CPS *really* screwed CPS and future Chicagoans”
Dont knock the 2nd Daley’s use of the control of CPS, that is what helped its turn around in the late 90’s from the shell of a district before. That control helped get to a point where it was finally a viable option for parents. Yes that control cost us state funds (not federal).
Personally I’m in the camp of Chicago should be its own county.
Also many may knock Daley, which he has done bad bad stuff, but one thing he had was influence on state and down state lawmakers. Something Rahm is either too blind or arrogant to try to do.
“[Rahm] and he has needed to create this current crisis to try to claw back some of the billions (yes, billions) that CPS has been shortchanged compared to the rest of the state’s school districts”
No, Tiny Dancer wants and needs the current crisis to push his agenda of his backers and where his money comes from and get in more and more Charter Schools if not a whole Charter system. Along with his buddy Rauner, and the Pritzkers to profit even more off charter schools.
Again points to political posturing being used, but at the cost of the constant uncertainty for the common folk of Chicago.
Rauner is all over the news about the corrupt Illinois, and Rahm is not directly calling out Daley’s crookedness but atleast Daley’s crookedness wasnt in the shadows it was in your face and we all knew it. Things were goign good so we all looked the other way.
Now these two, Rahm and Rauner, are even more corrupt than their predecessors they are trying to blame for all of this.
And someone explain to me again how the UNO organization is still able to get our state and city dollars and continue operating?
And how did the corrupt Aramark contract happen again? and how in the heck can they can they say that they are going to renew it in 2017? or how in the heck can they say the schools are cleaner with them and its “cheaper”.
So its just same as the Old boss just sneakier than the previous.
“how in the heck can they say [aramark contract is] “cheaper”.”
No pensions. That’s how it’s cheaper.
It’s also how the charters are (barely) cheaper. No overhang of under-funded pensions.
Charter pitch is supposed to be better results for less money; reality is same(ish) results, same(ish) money, so I don’t see the point, other than as a quasi-school-choice thing.
If the charters were getting same results for 30% less $$, or 30% better results for same $$, there’d be less complaining.
anon, you say: “Daley’s deal for control of CPS *really* screwed CPS and future Chicagoans.”
But what did that deal consist of? I don’t remember any of its details.
The sad thing I think public radio or the reader did something and showed that Aramark wasn’t cheaper. Yes iirc they did have the under estimated building and sqft charges added to that comparison.
Look the Charter *concept* is a good one, where it fails is its a FOR-PROFIT organization working on tight margins. as with all for-profits something will always get squeezed to beat or maintain the operating income for the shareholders. add in chicago’s crooked ways plus the every crook gets a cut, then you see where it fails and will fail hard years out.
Agreed, if your talking a 30% cut in running costs and a 15% improvement then I will be fist in line lobbying for a full charter system.
They real question is how many quality families and UMC/middle class taxes dollars are we gonna loose to other states and burbs while this all shakes out? Will they come back years down if it turns around?
“But what did that deal consist of?”
He got control of CPS:
–the CPS pension levy was eliminated,
–State contributions to CTPF were a handshake rather than (in some way) required,
–the funding formula as it relates to CPS was set in stone (which permits everyone else to complain that it unfairly advantages Chicago)
–the funding became a block grant, with no requirements to spend SPED $$ on SPED (which permits everyone else to complain that it unfairly advantages Chicago)
–PTELL limits CPS’s ability to increase the levy
All of which severely limits CPS’s political position in asking for anything more from the state, notwithstanding the fact that 20% of IL’s students (who are, in the aggregate, among the poorest 1/4 of the state, and thus would be expected to get a *higher* % of state funding) get only 15% of state K-12 funding.
Daley chose his own power, his own re-election chances, and the avoidance of controversy over the future of Chicago. It was the sort of miserable, short-sighted choice that is so typical of that generation of our elected “leaders” (a generation that, of course, includes Madigan).
“the Charter *concept* is a good one, where it fails is its a FOR-PROFIT organization ”
They aren’t all for profit. Noble is a non-profit. CICS is a non-profit.
Sure, you’ll say, “XYZ profits from supplying X to them”, but that’s true of all of the vendors to regular CPS schools, too.
The more valid criticisms, imo, are that they pay the teachers much less, but still cost about the same per student to run, and they do that while offloading “more expensive” kids back to CPS (or to dropping out). So I don’t think the value proposition stands up very well.
UNO is a different story, tho. They give the rest a bad name.
“The more valid criticisms, imo, are that they pay the teachers much less, but still cost about the same per student to run, and they do that while offloading “more expensive” kids back to CPS (or to dropping out). So I don’t think the value proposition stands up very well”
Also many are operating in newly built buildings so overhead is low, but construction loans and building leases is where the bulk of the per pupil funding is going.
Take UNO, they operate under both and the building lease deals are what i think almost shut them down recently.
Also like you say charters ship off the trouble students back to the neighborhood schools, yet still perform the same(ish).
Which if we were to make assumptions about performance one would conclude its not HOW you teach its WHO you teach. of which still doesn’t cut costs
I like the concept of charter schools. I don’t know how good or bad they are in practice. The idea of allowing different schools to specialize in different areas and teach differently, sounds good. Kids and parents should be able to choose the school that best fits their needs.
“one would conclude its not HOW you teach its WHO you teach.”
The data from the state of Illinois is pretty clear on this. Test scores correlate strongly with 3 factors, all of which are about who you are teaching: % low income, mobility rate, attendance rate. Parents pride themselves on turning schools around but it’s not clear how much of the effect is simply the fact that higher income parents started sending their kids there.
We bought in the city Sabrina.
“Parents pride themselves on turning schools around but it’s not clear how much of the effect is simply the fact that higher income parents started sending their kids there”
Ding, Ding, Ding! You hit it on the half the head, I don’t think its truly income as the major factor, its Parent(guardian) involvement.
My view on the income having a correlation not a causation. Most higher income households have parents(guardians) who had to work to get/stay in that income bracket, those traits of work and study and advancement are not only taught at home but also learned by example.
What helps my crazy concept is when low income parents(guardians) push and do not except failure as an option that child ends up in a higher income class when they get older.
What doesnt help my crazy concept is when the parent guardian pushes to hard and the kid gets burned out early and ends up a druggie.
Schools simply are a reflection the communities in which they serve. Income has very little to do with school performance imho. The bigger factor is the cultural and social norms that result in high academic performance.
This is why you see often very poor immigrants still performing well in school. The social and cultural norms are what drive their performance, not necessarily their income. Usually, their income increases after one generation and the pattern continues.
I believe the reason there has been little progress improving schools is because we have gotten so politically correct as a society, that we refuse to discuss the actual root causes out of fear of offending someone or admitting that not all cultures and norms are equal.
what we need is jobs for low income families… sitting on your ass all day on benefits isn’t teaching your kids anything by example
BUILD THE WALL
DEPORT ILLEGALS
When I went to high school- Amundsen it was sort of like a mini United Nations. I entered in 1989 and graduated in 1993. In 1991 just out of nowhere we had like 20% of the students were from Eastern Europe. They even started a soccer (um I mean football) team. In terms of racial diversity we had it all.
The top students were all Asian and Eastern European recently arrived immigrants. There were a bunch of black top students but would you be surprised if I told you they were immigrants while their fourth or fifth generation black American generation counterparts just didn’t care about studying.
I will never forget in my homeroom class one day. The homeroom teacher Ms. Pyant told us that the next day we should bring a book to read because homeroom class was going to be half a day because of some type of teacher training. This tall black kid named Tim shrugged his shoulders and shook his head. Ms. Pyant asked in an exasperated tone: “what is the matter Tim?”. Tim replied “books are for white people” and the black, hispanic and white kids erupted in laughter. Books are for white people!
I also remember graduation day quite vividly. Out of my graduation class, probably 25% were completely functionally illiterate. They could not read at an 8th grade level let alone a 12th grade level. They could not speak adequately let alone any higher set of cognitive tasks. So sad.
“Parents pride themselves on turning schools around but it’s not clear how much of the effect is simply the fact that higher income parents started sending their kids there”
“Ding, Ding, Ding! You hit it on the half the head, I don’t think its truly income as the major factor, its Parent(guardian) involvement.”
Wasn’t trivial to coordinate the umc to agree to send their kids there (and, in effect, drive the other kids away).
It’s sad. New research suggests that by 18 months, there is a huge disparity in verbal skills between middle class/upper middle class kids and poor kids. My suspicion is that it’s because the poor parents on average talk to their kids less. I see it all of the time when I’m out. The middle class parents talk to their kids on their walks and have discussions or point things out to them. The poorer moms are usually seen dragging their kids by one arm, walking with a blank facial expression except to yell at their kids to shut up.
“This is why you see often very poor immigrants still performing well in school.”
Then, the 2nd and 3rd generation gets liberalized, they embrace the gangsta rap/NBA culture and turn their backs on hard work and religious values of the immigrants. Then comes the debt they take on to have an import SUV, they start having illegit kids, join gangs, and spend cash on too many tattoos.
Only immigrants from Europe, like the Polish, don’t follow this path. Immigrants do work hard, but their offspring become lazy obese tatt’ed up a-hole beasts in just the next generation. That’s Chicago today.
” New research suggests that by 18 months, there is a huge disparity in verbal skills between middle class/upper middle class kids and poor kids. ”
Google “word gap” and “goodnight moon gap”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/magazine/choosing-a-school-for-my-daughter-in-a-segregated-city.html?_r=0
“I like the concept of charter schools. I don’t know how good or bad they are in practice. The idea of allowing different schools to specialize in different areas and teach differently, sounds good. Kids and parents should be able to choose the school that best fits their needs.”
That’s not a charter, that’s a magnet.
“Only immigrants from Europe, like the Polish, don’t follow this path.”
Really? This is news.
The Poles started coming over a hundred years ago so it’s not even 2nd and 3rd generation at this point. More like 5th and 6th generation (granted- many more Poles continue to come in, of course. Thousands undocumented right here in Chicago!)
But that’s the beauty about immigration. It just keeps going on. Has been for hundreds of years.
“That’s not a charter, that’s a magnet.”
It could be a charter, too, but it is not necessary for it to be a charter, as you note.
That had been going on with magnets in CPS well before the first charter school came here.
re: Oak Park taxes, relative to Chicago:
Now up to 97% higher, from 80% higher last year. Assuming no SSA.
“The Poles started coming over a hundred years ago”
The Poles started coming over a hundred and fifty years ago. St. Stanislaus Kostka Church was founded in 1867.
Historical side note: Antoni Smagorzewski-Schermann is considered the first permanent Polish resident of Chicago. He arrived with his family June 1, 1851. Happy 165th anniversary, Antoni!
“Historical side note: Antoni Smagorzewski-Schermann is considered the first permanent Polish resident of Chicago.”
Really? Chicago was barely a city back that early. This whole area was French well before the Poles started coming (and obviously Indian before that.) The French were in Illinois/Missouri as early as the late 1700s.
“re: Oak Park taxes, relative to Chicago:
Now up to 97% higher, from 80% higher last year. Assuming no SSA”
yikes
“Chicago was barely a city [in 1851]”
In 1850, Chicago was the 24th largest American city with a population of 29,963.
Illinois population was 851,470 (so, 3.5%; now 21%)); US population was 23,191,876 (0.12%; now 0.84%). So, proportionately, about 1/6 the size of today.
Also in 1851: Northwestern U was founded. And that was 3 years after the founding of CBOT and the first railroad serving Chicago.
“In 1850, Chicago was the 24th largest American city with a population of 29,963.”
Thanks anon(tfo). As I said- it was barely a city in 1851. Incorporated only like 20 years earlier. Hardly anyone here. No one thinking that one day it would be the second largest city in the country.
St. Louis’ population in 1850 was 104,000 (just for comparison purposes.)
Chicago was a hole in the wall when that Polish guy came. More French here than anyone else (as I said earlier.)