Single Family Home Alternative in the Middle of Lincoln Park: 914 W. Wrightwood
We’ve chattered several times about these large 3-bedroom newer construction duplex down units, like this one at 914 W. Wrightwood in Lincoln Park, that sprang up on the north side in the last ten years.
They are not townhomes but give you the space of one and are priced less than single family homes in the same neighborhoods.
This duplex down unit has been on the market since May and has now been reduced by $125,000.
It is also listed for $65,100 under the 2007 purchase price.
The unit has cherry cabinets in the kitchen with granite countertops and stainless steel appliances. The bathrooms are marble and limestone.
It has a large 26×18 family room on the lower level along with two of the three bedrooms.
Is this a deal at this price for the space and the location?
Elizabeth Ballis at Coldwell Banker has the listing. See more pictures here.
Unit #1: 3 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, duplex down, 1 car parking
- Sold in September 2001 for $577,000
- Sold in July 2007 for $690,000
- Originally listed in May 2009 for $749,900
- Reduced several times
- Currently listed for $624,900
- Assessments of $190 a month
- Taxes of $7716
- Central Air
- Bedroom #1: 14×14 (main level)
- Bedroom #2: 12×10 (lower level)
- Bedroom #3: 12×10 (lower level)
- Living room: 14×11
- Kitchen: 14×8
- Dining room: 13×11
- Family room: 26×18
Its nice. Cookie cutter, but nice. Not sure about that price.
Nice place, nice location…too bad it’s a duplex down.
And isn’t it a bid strange to have a “fabulous private roof deck” for a ground (and below grade) duplex down? Is there an internal stairwell? The upstairs unit(s) can’t use the deck, or is the roof partitioned?
“isn’t it a bid strange to have a “fabulous private roof deck” for a ground (and below grade) duplex down?”
Note the pitched roof in the exterior photo. Then check aerial photos. See that “fabulous private roof deck” is on the roof of the garage. Cue complaint about decks overlooking the alley from one of the several people here who hate them. Then cue complaints about deceptive listing from (almost) everyone.
On cue:
Deceptive, bland, not worth the money…
Also on cue:
Duplex Downs = Water Issues = Mold
I’d agree that this is a nice place.
Just had a duplex up penthouse in my building (albeit Bucktown, haters) — 3 bed, 2 bath, huge rooftop deck (like actually the roof – 5th floor), tandem parking go for $580. Makes me think that $625 to live half your life in the basement and hang out on top of the garage is a bit high.
back on the market in less than 2 years!! no wonders there is a glut of inventory when living in a place for less than 24 months is the norm.
Never really been a big fan of the duplex downs but I have seen some nice ones (usually in a vintage building) where the lower level was only 2 feet below grade.
The biggest issue right now with these units is the price points are making them hard to finance for the typical buyer due to the constriction of underwriting guidelines. The typical buyer of these places usually are early 30s DINKs. At minimum you need a 20% down payment for any jumbo loan and the best deals are really 25%-30%. Most don’t have that kind of liquidity.
The other issue is that guidelines are also getting tight on condo financing with some jumbo lenders refusing to finance condos altogether – ESPECIALLY 3 unit buildings. Many of my clients are trying to find true townhomes vs the duplexes now because the financing is much easier as they are treated as a single family home, not a condo.
Never a question of if it floods, more a question of when…
Also, the place is now 8 years old. Given the HVAC systems put in many of these sorts of condos, it’s reasonably likely that there will shortly be a need to overhaul or replace the AC compressor and maybe the furnace. The HW heater is almost certainly at the end of its useful life (if it hasn’t been replaced). I’d be concerned about the maintenance record on the split-face side walls (visible on streetview from the east).
The refrigerator looks newer than the stove, but has a *giant* dent that would be almost exactly at eye-level for me and would bug me endlessly (until I dropped the $2k on a new one).
And the place seems pretty narrow b/c of the stairs to the upper units–but that’s an issue shared by almost all of these sorts of places.
Tom, you can go anywhere in the city and watch this happen. . . with this same building (there are what, a couple thousand of this exact same design in chicago).
I once lived on a block that had 6 (six!) of this same building on it, so I can say with certainty the cycle with these units goes like this:
1)Newlyweds buy “big duplex” and throw big party.
2)1-2 years later, a crib appears on the lower level (it’s the only living space in the unit, and it’s usually in plane view to the street, since it’s lower level)
3)1-2 years later, for sale sign appears. (Seems the place is no longer “big” when you realize you don’t have living space on the same level as your kitchen or master, and that you can’t be on the same level as your kids bedroom without living in the basement.)
4)Repeat.
I just checked, and one of the units on my old street identical to this one is for sale for $480. That’s right in the center of Wicker on a nice quiet street. . . so, yeah, my condolences to the owner here.
“Cue complaint about decks overlooking the alley from one of the several people here who hate them. Then cue complaints about deceptive listing from (almost) everyone.”
I remember being at a party at someone’s condo on Diversey and Lincoln avenue… their outdoor space was fabulous, however it faced north and basically overlooked the alley. We had fun that night watching the giant rats scurry about the alley. There had to be 10+ of them, it was crazy. So note to buyers of this place and other places with views of alleys, buy a feral cat.
With the number of rats around – why don’t we ask PAWS & Humane Society to start releasing any of the non-declawed cats they have? True ‘no-kill’ solution. It’ll be like Greece!
“start releasing any of the non-declawed cats they have”
Then release dogs to deal with the cats, and then gorrilla to deal with the dogs, then cobras to deal with the gorillas, mongeese to deal with the cobras, hawks to deal with the mongeese and, finally, rats to deal with the hawks (to eat their eggs). Or something like that.
Or, we could feed the cats to the rats and the rats to the cats and get the cat skins for nothing. (anyone?)
re: non-declawed cats
We would get lots of roadkill. Survival of the fittest!
Husker Du.
With umlauts over the “u”‘s.
Yeah, Mrs B!
“Then release dogs to deal with the cats, and then gorrilla to deal with the dogs, then cobras to deal with the gorillas, mongeese to deal with the cobras, hawks to deal with the mongeese and, finally, rats to deal with the hawks (to eat their eggs). Or something like that.”
That was from a simpsons episode wasn’t it?
“That was from a simpsons episode wasn’t it?”
Among other things, yeah. Always get the image of simian-Homer taking a bite out of a crocodile or something.
To be honest, there’s a good number of feral cats in my neighborhood, and I can’t remember the last time I saw a rat. Plenty of squirrels about, and even saw a rabbit last night, but the rats lay low.
I’d like a sweet, private garage roof deck to watch anon’s crocodiles walk down the alley.
foxes
This is the price point where sellers are hopeless. Not big/nice/unique enough for the wealthy buyer, yet too expensive for the segment this appeals to most.
Feral cats only live 2 or 3 years in the streets before they die of disease, sickness, roadkill or exposure. Winters in Chicago are tough on feral cats, unlike in Greece or Italy where winters are very mild. A thick coat of cat fur will gets the cat through 30’s and 40’s but its not entirely effective at keeping a cat warm when it’s in the 10’s outside and the ground is covered in a foot of snow.
Feral cats eat baby rats in the nest or running around or whatnot. They don’t have much luck catching full grown rats. They don’t have much luck with full grown rabbits either but they love catching baby ones in the next. Like the time my cat escaped and showed up in my kitchen with a maimed baby rabbit in her mouth. they also like baby birds too and sometimes smaller birds. They generally leave squirrels alone. Squirrels are feisty and angry little buggers with nasty claws and nasty teeth. Evolution has nearly exempted them from becoming prey in urban areas. The hawks and the raptors won’t even mess with the squirrels because those nasty teeth (used for opening nuts and such) rip off talons.
Thanks for more than I ever wanted to know about feral cats (or cats in general for that matter).
You know this place is pretty unsellable at this price when nobody has even commented on the fact that its about 10 doors down from the el. You know the seller is thinking, “what was I thinking when I paid almost $700K for this place a couple of years ago.” I get that the top unit is smaller, but that sold for almost $200K less ($508K) just a month before this one sold in 07…
I have recently noticed that newer versions of these duplex downs are deploying a much better layout. The main level (above grade) includes a layout very similar to the newer single family homes with a LR/DR combo in the front with a Kitchen/FR/.5 BA in the back. Then all 3-4 bedrooms and 2-3 BA are on the lower level. If I were looking to buy a duplex down, I can’t think of a single reason why I’d rather have my BRs and living space both split between two floors. That being said, it seems like these newer layouts are carrying a bit of a premium, probably due to being newer, but I speculate that some of has to do with much better use of space. The four most recent versions I saw were in the 3200 blocks of Racine (6 flat), Clifton (6 flat), and Seminary (3 flat) and 2100 block of Racine (3 flat). I think all sold north of $740K.
Sorry about the tangent, now back to the property:
Units like these are a dime a dozen all over the city.
Like Russ pointed out, the financing is weird.
Nor are the very livable for families with more than 2 people.
And they’re very price too.
I guess the allure its like having a ‘flat’ in London except that it’s a one unit of three in a 3-flat in Lincoln Park.
nevertheless, blah.
Wow… you guys know alot about pu^^ies…… (Sorry, that was such a softball.)
What is this? “Catchatter”?
“to watch anon’s crocodiles walk down the alley.”
I know there are alligators up and down every street featured on CC. They are hungry and they must be fed.
“what was I thinking when I paid almost $700K for this place a couple of years ago.”
They were thinking that it was only 20% more than what the seller paid less than six years prior and everyone knows that real estate goes up way more than that even in the worst of times and those were good times so it represented INSTANT EQUITY that could be tapped if necessary to meet the howmuchamonth prior to selling for guaranteed profit so they snapped it up before they were priced out forever. Besides, Suzanne researched it.
Duplex downs have another issue which is subtle and often not well understood. All of their waste water effluent needs to be pumped back above (or close to) grade to evacuate and enter the city sewer. This means if the sump dies or the power goes out, your toilet becomes unusable. Also they are prone to backflooding if the sump becomes clogged or otherwise is inefficient.
In a single family, this is a minor convenience. In a duplex down, especially when principal living areas are down there, it can be a nightmare. Below grade sucks for many reasons, this is one of them.
Duplex downs have another issue which is subtle and often not well understood. All of their waste water effluent needs to be pumped back above (or close to) grade to evacuate and enter the city sewer. This means if the sump dies or the power goes out, your toilet becomes unusable. Also they are prone to backflooding if the sump becomes clogged or otherwise is inefficient.
In a single family, this is a minor inconvenience. In a duplex down, especially when principal living areas are down there, it can be a nightmare. Below grade sucks for many reasons, this is one of them.
We recently bought a 5 year old duplex down in Andersonville for less than the original owners. It has the “newer” style living arrangement with all bedrooms and full baths down with all living up. LR/DR/Kit combo up front with powder room and Family room in back. The only reason we went with it was because all the bedrooms are on 1 level. As to the the pumpoing of waste, yes it is a fear of mine, but if installed properly (BIG if) with a backflow prevent value then there is less concern. Our sewer line collapsed this weekend and the sewer backed up and out the storm downspouts. Smells like sh*t outside, but no water issues inside (other than the powder room toilet spweing forth some sewer gas, which was the hint that there was something really wrong.)
Would have loved to have been more above ground, but for the space, cost, layout, finishes, location it fit the bill. And yes we will most likely be moving in 5 years to the burbs…just can’t get my head around the cost of private schools!
“To be honest, there’s a good number of feral cats in my neighborhood, and I can’t remember the last time I saw a rat. Plenty of squirrels about, and even saw a rabbit last night, but the rats lay low.”
Another interesting thing is that on top of Park Place tower in lakeview a family of about 5 peregrin falcons live there. They eat pigeons, and I don’t think there are any pigeons around there within at least a mile radius. I wish they’d put some in the damn loop. Its disgusting walking near the el tracks!
“And yes we will most likely be moving in 5 years to the burbs…just can’t get my head around the cost of private schools!”
Yet you got your head around the cost of a duplex down in 2009, all the while knowing you would sell in such a short time? Those private schools might at least provide a return on investment.
Tax step up in suburbs is equivalent to most private schools in city assuming 2 kids. I say most because your kids aren’t getting into Latin, so don’t worry about that.
“I wish they’d put some [peregrines] in the damn loop.”
They do. One First National (Chase whatever) has nests on the top and I think other buildings do, too. They aren’t going to go after pigeons under the el, tho, as they are typical raptors–they hunt by diving, and there isn’t enough space under the tracks.
I wish we’d start spreading the pigeon birth control, like they did along Hollywood Blvd in LA. I’d even kick in the first $100.
Since we’re on kats, my parents de-clawed cat seemed to have no trouble with bigs, and would snarf them down (especially if they flew into the picture window).
Somebody did a study, about ten years ago I think, in the UK and found that housecats which were let outside, but otherwise well-fed, kept the bird (in particular, and maybe small mammal) population down by like 45% or something surprising, even in rural areas.
We moved from Seattle, due to work transfer (we are from Chicago originally) and looked at renting, but could not find something that worked. Sold our house faster than expected (at a decent profit only holding for 4 years!!) and did not want to incur 2-3k/month storage fees of our stuff while searching around for a rental or find the perfect property. Also, with a rental I would always be wondering if the landlord would sell, bump rent, not manage the property, etc. With a young family, not a chance I want to take.
“Yet you got your head around the cost of a duplex down in 2009, all the while knowing you would sell in such a short time? Those private schools might at least provide a return on investment.”
The duplex down is substantially cheaper than the house in Seattle, so it was easier to accept and move forward with our lives.
“Tax step up in suburbs is equivalent to most private schools in city assuming 2 kids. I say most because your kids aren’t getting into Latin, so don’t worry about that.”
Taxes are higher in the burbs, yes its a fact. And unless I win the lotto and buy the kid(s) into Latin, then you are correct they are not going there…not going to argue that. We just did not have the time to research suburbs and shop for housing in the time frame given to us, so we made a temporary decision. We’ll see if we regret it…
The peregine’s in Edgewater are fearsome! They live up on top of the senior building at B’way and Ardmore. They catch pigeons and pick them to bits in the trees, really cool.
“And yes we will most likely be moving in 5 years to the burbs…just can’t get my head around the cost of private schools!”
Good. City kids are creepy.
Depends on where you go, JMM and GB. Move to New Trier Twp, Northfield Twp and Barrington Twp in Cook County and there is very little difference in RE tax. Not too big a difference in some of Niles Twp, too.
As far as the outer counties go, the times they are a changin. Take the following comparison of Chicago, Hinsdale and Lake Forest.
Chicago, $900,000 home, 10% assessment level, 2.9786 equalization factor, 4.816% tax rate = $12,910 taxes
Hinsdale, $900,000 home, 33.33% assessment level, 1.0 equalization factor, 3.8412% tax rate = $11,522 taxes
Lake Forest, $900,000 home, 33.33% assessment level, 1.0 equalization factor, 3.874% = $11,621 taxes
The homestead exemption is similar in each county but I left it out for simplicity. I will also note that the shift in Cook County from a 16% assessment level to 10% in 2009 will mostly correct the longstanding underassessment of residential props in Cook County, which was the source of most of the tax advantage in the past.
“Good. City kids are creepy.”
Nah, they’re Groovy.
Oh yeah, one other thing. My example above for Chicago is based on the 2008 tax rate and equal factor. One, or both, of these numbers (and definitely the product of the two) will rise once the effects of the assessment shift are known and the 2009 tax rate and equal factor are calculated and released next summer.
“I will also note that the shift in Cook County from a 16% assessment level to 10% in 2009 will mostly correct the longstanding underassessment of residential props in Cook County”
Huh? If the assessed value were actually tied to market values (as your example provides), the shift from 16% to 10% would make the assessed values–and therefore tax amounts–*lower* for residential properties. So, what am I missing?
G, on the flip side, I know a family with a $300k home (bought in ’08) in Woodridge who pays $5,500 a year in taxes, and I know a woman in Park Ridge who bought a $700k home in Park Ridge and she pays $13,000 a year in taxes, even with the exemption! So it varies from suburb to suburb.
sewage pumps for duplex downs: you will never get more backup than you attempt to send through the system at that point in time. It’s not like the entire sewer system will back up into your unit – it just cant happen. look up “ejector pumps” if you care to learn more. I own a duplex down and the fears of sewage backup or flooding (for more than the risk of any dwelling) are silly.
G,
The math doesn’t work as simple as that. District 36, 37 and 38 tax the hell out of you on the assessed valuation. Here is a $1M house with 40k in taxes (albeit under protest). Find me one of those in Lakeview.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Kenilworth/515-Kenilworth-Ave-60043/home/13781313
2k per month is pretty standard for a decent 1.0 – 1.5M house in those districts.
but I will admit, before I educated myself about duplex downs, I had similar thoughts as most people: “don’t they flood all the time?” and “don’t they fill with poop?”
Brad,
Sure it can happen. If the sewer line backs up, the effluent goes first to the sump in the basement, not to the 3rd floor unit.
Even if this doesn’t happen, you still cannot use grey or blackwater systems if the power does down or if the pump fails. Or if some idiot disconnects it trying to turn the ourdoor lights on…
Brad,
You are correct. The toilet that was bubbling sewer gas was the powder room toilet on the upper floor. It is the lowest drain in the building not protected by the backflow preventer.
My fear is just water infiltration during an extended power outage. When we were in Seattle there was a woman who died in her basement when it suddenly filled with storm water. I know its a bizzare situation and not likely to happen, but it’s still there in my thoughts.
Here’s the story about the drowning:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/296094_fleming15ww.html
JMM,
If you have a check value (backflow prevent) the effluent will try to go to the basement, but will not make it there. The lowest gravity feed drain will get hit first.
“a woman who died in her basement when it suddenly filled with storm water”
Not going to happen in Chicago, as there isn’t a hill for water to flood off of like that.
“So, what am I missing?”
The fact that when they used to say it was at 16%, it was actually underassessed at 10%. In effect, res was at 10% and comml/ind mostly at 36-38%. Now, res will really be at 10%, and comml will be at 25%. Toss in what “everyone knows” that residential has bottomed and comml is a disaster, and the stage is set for one monumental tax shift.
“So it varies from suburb to suburb.”
Of course it does. A $200,000 house in Homewood would pay $6,445. A $200,000 home in Maywood $6,905.
I thought I picked a couple of suburbs that would be at or near the top choice for many prioritizing schools/burbs.
JMM, The tax rate for that home is 5.504% compared to Chicago’s 4.816%. That home is massively overassessed and was an easy appeal victory. The 2008 assessment indicates a market value of almost $1.9M at 16%. Someone could have appealed it down and then had the 10% assmt rate applied for an even greater reduction. The tax bill after a $1M sale and appeal of this prop will be approx $16,400 without exemptions.
JMM, the math does work as easy as the formulas I presented. It is understanding the inputs that seems to throw people off.
>were in Seattle there was a woman who died in her basement when it suddenly filled with storm water
I guess anything *could* happen. Personally I think it would be a cooler story if she died from poop-water from the sewer.
Below grade living requires a reliance on electrical and mechanical devices, both of which will fail at some time. Advances have been made, but there is a reason that basements weren’t utilized in the past (or counted as square footage.)
Lending money on below-grade living spaces is new. Like anything else new (especially in the bubble – think hotel condos,) the mortgage industry could only guess at the risk levels. As these become known, especially in the much more normal lending environment going forward, I have a suspicion that below grade units will become difficult to finance.
anon (tfo) – the market values in Cook County used in assessments have generally increase a third.
I several houses I’m looking at have 2009 market values of $300,000 whereas 2008 was $200,000. I think Houlihan is using something like 2006 market values for the 2009 assessments. Hopefully, that all changes for 2010 or 2011 once the house deflation sale #s get to the County assessor.
“anon (tfo) – the market values in Cook County used in assessments have generally increase a third.”
Oh, I know. I was asking about how a shift from 16% to 10% would correct underassessment when the assessed values aren’t changing much, just the “market” values.
On that Kenilworth house: (1) Assessor’s site sez “no appeal filed” since 2003, (2) no homeowner’s exemption filed on the house, (3) the assessed value is consitent with other 5000+ sf homes on K’wrth Ave, (4) doubt the AV drops more than 10% in any appeal, since lack of uniformity is the only valid basis, (5) if G thinks he could prevail on the assessor/Bd of Appeals to reduce the AV by 2/3s he should be a tax appeal lawyer instead of whatever he does; I don’t think a 2/3s reduction on this property is realistic *at all*.
ME, What are they selling for? The market values haven’t really increased by a third in your example. What you are describing is the move to the 10% assessment rate and away from prior underassessments for residential.
Example: Was $200,000 assessed MV at 16% equals 32,000 assessment. Underassessment meant 32,000 AV really equated to $320,000 assessed MV. Assessor “drops” market value to $300,000 for 2009 at 10% and AV is now 30,000. Everything else being equal (and it isn’t due to changes in tax rate, equalization factor & comml tax shift) and the tax bill goes down slightly.
As for your hopes, if the assessor drops everyone by the same % then nobody’s tax bill goes down unless the levy does.
“if the assessor drops everyone by the same % then nobody’s tax bill goes down unless the levy does.”
And, most likely, everyone’s tax bill goes up, even if the budget stays the same (doubtful) because commercial and industrial values drop faster.
G, you evidently disagree, but I find your semi-interchangeable use of “assessment” for market value and assessed value to be confusing. Sure, the assessor, in theory, determines (ie, assesses) market value and then calculates the assessed value based on the designated %age, but appeals, etc. are all based off of the assessed value, so that’s the only genuinely relevant “assessment” in my view.
anon, did you miss that it is for sale for $1.095M and my assumption was that it sells for $1M?
As for the rest: (1) that helps with a big appeal request, (2) my example was without HO exemption, (3) who cares about other assessments if you have comparable sale info, (4) lack of uniformity is the only valid basis? You seem to have forgotten about comparable sales, (5) Why become one when I know plenty of very good ones who would love this appeal after a $1M sale.
anon, Before 2009, upon settling the assessed MV on residential in Cook County, PTAB allowed the further argument that the AV can be recalculated at 10% in order to reflect the results of sales ratio studies.
I really have no idea what else you are trying to say.
“but I find your semi-interchangeable use of “assessment” for market value and assessed value to be confusing”
I guess this is the confusion. I don’t believe I interchanged anything. Assessed Market Value (MV) is what the assessor says it is worth. Assessed Value (AV) is the assessed MV times the assessment rate.
“but appeals, etc. are all based off of the assessed value” No, appeals are most often based on market value appraisals which are converted to AV by application of the assessment rate.
“lack of uniformity is the only valid basis? You seem to have forgotten about comparable sales,”
Overstated that. Only sure winner.
That Kenilworth place is v. uniform with the other 5000+ SF’rs. If it go a 2/3s reduction, there are 8 other places on the block in the same property category that would then have an easy win. And then all the smaller places would, too.
I just don’t believe that PTAB would be blind to the ripple effect of that big a drop, and how would they draw the distinction?
ps: Appart from the 2/3 drop, we’re just talking semantics and I wasn’t reading in depth, so the fault may be mine.
Anon, if it sells for $1M with comps and the rest are similar, they should all have easy wins.
PTAB, and the Board for that matter, could give a hoot about any ripple effects. Their jobs are to decide based on the evidence in front of them. There is no big picture that they consider. No better evidence could make their job easier than a recent sale with appraisal including verified comps. The assessor certainly cannot rely upon uniformity in the face of a market value argument. They will have to fight it with comps.
I’m telling you, it would be a winner.
“Of course it does. A $200,000 house in Homewood would pay $6,445. A $200,000 home in Maywood $6,905. ”
huh? you’re telling me that Maywood residents are paying $575 a month in taxes on their $200k home? That doesn’t sound right at all.
“The assessor certainly cannot rely upon uniformity in the face of a market value argument”
Then it could be worth it for a HO association to keep a single property as a straw property to pass around b/t LTs as a wicked low comp. Keep re-selling a Barrington Hills manse for $250k, then slamdunk your appeals on the other 20 $5mm spreads–saving almost $2mm a year in taxes. Just have to time the sale for the re-assessment appeal period.
Or is there a law against that?
You’d still need an appraisal with good comps.
G,
So you are saying 100,000 AV x 5.504% x 2.9x is the likely value (where 100k is 10% of $1M comped out value)? I know this is just a poor little old lady who doesn’t know any better, but I am not sure the market truly believes the ability to successfully appeal, as I think lots of these places would trade. Any way to determine before the fact?
strange how the boring places sometimes have the most informative comment sections. falcons living in the city and tax talk…both more interesting than the property itself.
American Kestrels, the smallest raptor, live all over the NW side. You know it’s them because they fly all weird and sit atop the highest buildings and trees.
http://www.carolinaraptorcenter.org/am_kestrel.php
The forest preserves on the NW side have all sorts of interesting animals: deer, turtles, hawks, egrets, herons, woodpeckers, etc.
You’re right, this is more interesting than the property, these all brick three story doublewides are a dime a dozen in this city. I bet there are of these monstrosities than there are deer within the city limits.
“Many of my clients are trying to find true townhomes vs the duplexes now because the financing is much easier as they are treated as a single family home, not a condo.”
Largely because they understand assessments are minimal in many townhomes and SFHs or even non-existent. Whereas condos command assessments and liability. Additionally the price ranges overlap some between these two segments.
Only thing this property has going for it is location. And I can live here for far less than 625k!
“You’d still need an appraisal with good comps.”
Which gets back to my doubting that 515 Kenilworth will earn a 2/3s reduction in taxes–are there good comps for an appraisal showing that taxable-MV (which I think we can agree is only loosely related to actual-MV in Cook) is that low?
Especially b/c the Assessor has no record of appeal, no matter what the realtor typed into MLS. Of course, it should be a slamdunk to get a substantial reduction in the assessment, but I’d be surprised by more than about 1/3 off, unless the place is at risk of condemnation.
> Lending money on below-grade living spaces is new. Like anything else new (especially in the bubble – think hotel condos,) the mortgage industry could only guess at the risk levels. As these become known, especially in the much more normal lending environment going forward, I have a suspicion that below grade units will become difficult to finance.
Maybe. But every building in my hood has the same duplex-down setup, and they continue to sell, and I assume get financed, in this market. I purchased and financed my unit about 8-months ago and had zero problems.
Using that logic, I’d actually say with technology & backup systems improving that lending would be *less* risky on subgrade places as time goes on.
Brad, 8 months is an eternity in the mortgage world right now. The guidelines are constantly changing and there are deals that closed last month that can no longer be done.
The point I made about changes in technology is that it has enabled these spaces to exist at all. My guess is that lenders ignored the risk of flooding since they were unloading the mortgage’s onto someone else. If moisture problems arise, it will begin to appear in increased foreclosure numbers which the mortgage number crunchers will eventually identify and alter their lending practices.
The fact that these first appeared during the times of crappy bubble construction do not bode well for the outcome. If they do not have more problems than other units and do not result in more foreclosures – no problem. I just don’t see that as a realistic outcome.
“Which gets back to my doubting that 515 Kenilworth will earn a 2/3s reduction in taxes–are there good comps for an appraisal showing that taxable-MV (which I think we can agree is only loosely related to actual-MV in Cook) is that low?”
There should be no difference in the assessor’s market value (I think that’s what you are calling “taxable-MV”) and the value (“actual-MV”) determined by verified sales comps. When there is, that is the basis for an appeal. If the subject has a recent sale that is supported by verified sales comps, that is a winning appeal.
“There should be no difference in the assessor’s market value (I think that’s what you are calling “taxable-MV”) and the value (”actual-MV”) determined by verified sales comps.”
So, you’re saying that the taxable-MV is (going forward) going to be tied to actual sales prices?
And by “actual-MV” I mean the price at which a house sells (or would sell if sold). For 515 K’worth, I mean $1.049mm or less. If you need appraisals to “prove” the MV of a house that sells in an arms-length transaction, then it’s not a *true* MV.
“So, you’re saying that the taxable-MV is (going forward) going to be tied to actual sales prices?”
No. It will be tied to actual market values. The sale price alone is not proof of market value, it is only what 1 person paid. An appraisal would confirm that the sale price is market value.
“No. It will be tied to actual market values. The sale price alone is not proof of market value, it is only what 1 person paid. An appraisal would confirm that the sale price is market value.”
So the rising business plan for connected Chicagoans is PTAB-related appraisals? No need for that pesky (and expensive) law school!
Nothing new about that plan, it’s just that residential savings like the Kenilworth example are few and far between. A 20% reduction to a typical $5000 tax bill won’t even keep the lights on.
Keep in mind, too, that if the county doesn’t settle at the Assessor or Board then they risk losing to the taxpayer at PTAB. The assessment is certified after the Board closes and the tax rate and equalization factor are determined by that final number. Any later reductions at PTAB are monies lost from the levy that shortchange taxing district budgets. The county sets aside some funds to cover these PTAB losses, but it is not politically acceptible to risk having to reduce budgets later so they tend to settle at the Board if you have evidence.
Oh yeah, only a lawyer can represent clients at the Board and PTAB. You can represent yourself, but you know what they say about that…
And there are only a handful of politically connected lawyers who represent anyone at the PTAB….It’s not something you can just hire any lawyer to do….I sure as hell won’t even attempt to do that…
“Oh yeah, only a lawyer can represent clients at the Board and PTAB.”
Of course. I meant that some mook with the appropriate chinaman could start an appraisal biz that would then be one of the handful of appraisal outfits* that get consistent results from the Board.
*intentional
brad on December 3rd, 2009 at 3:46 pm
“sewage pumps for duplex downs: you will never get more backup than you attempt to send through the system at that point in time. It’s not like the entire sewer system will back up into your unit – it just cant happen. look up “ejector pumps” if you care to learn more. I own a duplex down and the fears of sewage backup or flooding (for more than the risk of any dwelling) are silly.”
I agree, if the building is properly constructed (many of the hundreds of units of this style are very well constructed) there is little to no chance of flooding, mold and all the other problems that are mentioned here about below grade units.
Power failure issues can be overcome with 1)water pressure back up systems that do not rely on any source of power 2)emergency back up generators that are prewired for operation.
Brad,
I live in a Ravenswood 3 bedroom duplex-down gut rehab in 2006 and have two kids and a live-in au pair (5 people). Two beds up, one bedroom down (with family room, laundry, bathroom on lower level) … drain tile, flood control valve system, battery back-up sump etc… 3 years, no issues in a hood where the viaducts fill up pretty good in the recent monsoons (although I watch this stuff and the exterior building like a hawk). I’m not unaware that an issue could happen, but we’ve done about as much as you can for safe below-grade living (including an insurance rider many people fail to get) and have lived comfortably. As for mold, I’ve had inspector friends inspect once-in-a-while while doing improvements to the lower level etc… and I don’t see this as an issue. The lower level is well vented and I keep additional fresh air coming in with a “vented” glass block.
We could move to a Wilmette ranch house, pay more than we pay now in total monthly living expenses to get the schools and enjoy the awesome commute (sarcasm) to the city today where we actually work and love living.
Our place is maybe 2000 sq/ft and is plenty of living space for a family of four. It’s a much better layout, larger bedrooms and better finishes than any $400-$500K single family I’ve seen in any decent neighborhood east of Kedzie in Chicago (and I look for houses for a living) and especially around Ravenswood. It’s impossible to get more specific here, but any family of four looking under $500K for a home AND get a decent school knows what I’m talking about.
We are sending our kids to private school here in the neighborhood. I got a great deal on our place and the Catholic private schools are cheaper than non-secular privates. So, the reality is, a duplex- down bought at a good price near work and amenities is a better lifestyle than breaking the bank around here on a house and stress out our family with longer needless commutes in the burbs and the cost of single family home maintenance etc, etc.. et, al.
Regardless of the current market value/price… the above property at 914 Wrightwood is plenty of space for a family of four. Especially if the bread winners enjoy the location more than a suburb. However, I would rather have a full floor upper level (this design keeps it open in the front to allow more light) and two bedrooms up, or all bedrooms down if the choices and affordability were there for me.
The nice thing about our conversion unit is we have a real eat-in kitchen that opens to a real dining room, that opens to a real living room on the main level. We paid almost half of the asking price of the Wrightwood listing at the end of 2006, but only have two baths (no double vanity master) and live in an entirely different, but not less desirable for me, location.
So, a good duplex-down is a great way for families to stay in the city if they so desire.
Open question:
Do you think more people have had damage attributed to roof leaks on units or seepage/back-ups with duplex downs? I see both, but see a lot of annoying, costly roof issues.