The $800,000 Brick Bungalow in Lincoln Square: 5057 N. Francisco
There are bungalows and then there are 4,000 square feet vintage bungalows such as this one at 5057 N. Francisco in Lincoln Square (is this even Lincoln Square? The public realty sites lists it as such.)
This octagonal bungalow was built in 1925 on an oversized Chicago lot of 54×125.
It has 3-car parking and central air.
The listing says the house has been rehabbed. The kitchen appears to sport stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops.
Located across from River Park, the listing says it has multiple cedar decks.
Two of the 5 bedrooms are on the second floor, 2 on the main floor and 1 on the lower level.
The house has a rec room with a wet bar.
The bungalow is also listed for $41,000 under the 2006 purchase price.
What’s the market for a $800,000 vintage bungalow?
Molly Marino at Baird & Warner has the listing. See the pictures here.
5057 N. Francisco: 5 bedrooms, 4.5 baths, 3 car garage, 4000 square feet
- Sold in November 1986
- Sold in November 2006 for $860,000
- Currently listed for $819,000
- Taxes of $3586
- Central Air
- Bedroom #1: 16×16 (second floor)
- Bedroom #2: 11×9 (second floor)
- Bedroom #3: 14×11 (main floor)
- Bedroom #4: 11×9 (main floor)
- Bedroom #5: 14×10 (lower level)
“in Lincoln Square school district”
There’s a CPS school called “Lincoln Square”?
“Close to CTA”
Close to the Bus, yeah, but I’m about the same distance to the Brown Line and don’t consider my house “close”–close enough to walk, sure.
The listing doesn’t include a picture of the outside of the house. I could understand a condo not showing that, but a SFH?
That’s not Lincoln Square, it’s Albany Park.
There is no “Lincoln Square” CPS school. I think this is probably in Hibbard’s boundaries.
Why no pic of the front exterior?
“What’s the market for a $800,000 vintage bungalow?”
LOL
California? Manhattan?
Ok the place is nice, but its still a butt ugly bungalow in a decent neighborhood right across the street from a HUGE hospital zone
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=5057+N+Francisco+Ave,+Chicago,+Cook,+Illinois+60625&sll=41.974748,-87.699166&sspn=0.000662,0.002771&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=5057+N+Francisco+Ave,+Chicago,+Cook,+Illinois+60625&ll=41.974017,-87.7011&spn=0,0.011083&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.974019,-87.701299&panoid=ctHUVgS_hWD-pxNEpz1Kjw&cbp=12,129,,0,-1.87
here’s the front…
Everything that makes a Chicago bungalow charming and attractive has been stripped. Blandsville USA. Pass.
“That’s not Lincoln Square, it’s Albany Park.”
AP is entirely west/south of the North Branch. You want to call it North Park, maybe, but on the official map, Lincoln Square goes north to Bryn Mawr.
No outside photos? Another ruined bungalow.
OK, it’s actually in Budlong’s boundaries. Better than Hibbard, but not sure it’s worthy of including on the listing. People with $800K to spend and children whom they’re planning to send to CPS will not be moving into Budlong’s boundaries at this point in time.
why do people pretend to care about schools when spending over 750k? Is it to allay their guilt about not moving to the suburbs? Seriously, at this price range, if you were that into where your kids went to school, you would buy a house in the New Trier, Hinsdale Central school districts. Obviously schools are important to everyone at any price point, but stop pretending that it is top priority in cases like this.
“Close to the Bus, yeah”
Well, it does say CTA, and beside, Bob and my toddler love the bus. I took the El and the bus with little DZ on a hot dog outing this weekend and he much preferred the bus.
Is there anything good about this neighborhood? It’s not Lincoln Sq, there’s no school.
“why do people pretend to care about schools when spending over 750k? Is it to allay their guilt about not moving to the suburbs? Seriously, at this price range, if you were that into where your kids went to school, you would buy a house in the New Trier, Hinsdale Central school districts. Obviously schools are important to everyone at any price point, but stop pretending that it is top priority in cases like this.”
Especially if you have multiple kids, 8 years of tuition, for example, is still significant compared with your housing costs. I’d think you’d have to be looking at houses in the $1.5MM range before school costs are effectively irrelevant (and some may still care about the public school).
“if you were that into where your kids went to school, you would buy a house in the New Trier, Hinsdale Central school districts”
Stick to things you know something about. Like which streets are scary.
Seriously, you actively detract from the schools discussions with your … unique … perspective.
“Is there anything good about this neighborhood? It’s not Lincoln Sq, there’s no school.”
The school “?” was a joke.
It’s a very short commute to Swedish Covenant, North Park U and Northside College Prep. It’s proximate to several orthodox synagogues to permit walking.
“The school “?” was a joke.”
Understood your joke, I wasn’t being clear. I just meant that it wasn’t in Lincoln Sq (as in the heart of Lincoln Sq) and there was no good neighborhood elem, as two separate statements.
I have to question the sqft of this place, 4000sf? In a bungalow? Really? Could this include the below ground level space?
U know what when i list my house it will be listed as 4500sf
“Seriously, you actively detract from the schools discussions with your … unique … perspective”
Sorry about that – I know that schools are a part of buying housing – I just get irritated when people who have 800k to spend on a house feign concern over school districts, etc. Honestly, if it was that big of a deal to you, then you would move to Kenilworth/Winnetka/O.B./Hinsdale. Period. If not, then you shouldn’t be that concerned about the schools. You can’t always have your cake and eat it too.
I really dislike the light oak trim. It reminds me of the tract homes I built right out of college (I was a field manager for one of the biggest home builder) and the “upgrade” to wood trim from the colonial (painted poplar) trim package.
This house is nothing special for 800k. Not listed as a short, but at this price the seller is bringing money to the table. Looks like a 750k 1st from 7/07 and a 135k second from 10/08.
If I could afford 800k+ on a house schools wouldn’t matter either, clout and bribes would take care of that
no need for exterior pictures when the realtor has an mba from univ of chicago.
“Honestly, if it was that big of a deal to you, then you would move to Kenilworth/Winnetka/O.B./Hinsdale. Period.”
It’s nowhere that simple and expose your ignorance of what people who *can* afford $800k choose to do.
Now, this particular location isn’t being chosen by anyone concerned with the local public elementary school, but there’s a ton of space b/t here and New Trier.
Also, remember that the difference in property tax does affect the amount of debt service affordable to a buyer.
“….expose your ignorance of what people who *can* afford $800k choose to do”
Maybe you are right – but the people I know who consider schooling their TOP priority and can afford 800k are NOT looking at SFH in Lincoln Square, etc. – they ARE making the move to the burbs w/ the good schools. That was my only point. As I said before – schools ARE important to EVERYONE, but don’t pretend that education is your #1 priority if you are considering a place in the city… it simply, unarguably positively is NOT. We don’t need to beat this dead horse any further….
groove, shoot for an even 5. maybe joe z will feature it on his site. did you ever do the video with him?
“Understood your joke, I wasn’t being clear. ”
On re-read, yeah. But you were the 2d who might have missed it, so I clarified.
Interestingly, there is a 4/3.5 Colonial on another oversized lot for sale five blocks north (5540) for $825k. Interesting comp situation.
Of course, if you’d jumped quickly, for a little less money, you could have lived across from North Shore Country Day in Winnetka (306 Forest, UC for $800k), but it’s only a 3/2.5.
“don’t pretend that education is your #1 priority if you are considering a place in the city… it simply, unarguably positively is NOT”
Didn’t you acknowledge/recognize the name schools are overrated?
Just because someone has a different concept of what is important in education doesn’t mean they aren’t placing it first. They might be wrong, but it doesn’t change their motivation–much like someone saying they put their health above all else and rely on [quack science X] to do so–they’re misguided, but not necessarily incorrect in their own prioritizing. You’re seriously blinkered, man.
I don’t get it. I hesitate to comment because it irritates me when people comment on neighborhoods they don’t know about. I’m not really familiar with this little pocket. But I am very familiar with Ravenswood Manor, and I’ve always thought that hood was more desirable than this hood. Maybe I’m wrong. But I think this place would struggle to pull $800k in Ravenswood Manor. Maybe with period details in tact, but not with this bland renovation.
So I was just checking out some suburban McMansions today and have come to the conclusions that most of you all are stupid, at least those trying to raise kids in the city.
You’d rather pay 2x for a comparable place in the greenzone so you can walk to your stupid restaurants and bars and deal with all of the accompanying issues of CPS vs. living a much more affordable lifestyle in, say, Huntley, where you can get a house for less than half of what it would cost in the city, crime is lower, demographics are more favorable, and the tax climate likely is, too (No welfare class to support like in Crook County).
“don’t pretend that education is your #1 priority if you are considering a place in the city… it simply, unarguably positively is NOT”
It may not be the #1 priority – but still be a top priority. And as its been mentioned before, elementary is different then high school. Many more people would consider CPS for the younger kids and maybe a move to the suburbs later – myself included.
“You’d rather pay 2x for a comparable place in the greenzone so you can walk to your stupid restaurants and bars and deal with all of the accompanying issues of CPS vs. living a much more affordable lifestyle in, say, Huntley….”
I have a 15 minute commute to work in the city, which gives me extra time to spend at home with kids. And we’re walking distance to family. And on your argument, why not move to Michigan where I could get a house for next to nothing and still have decent schools (in the right area). Everyone has different things that are important to them.
This is a nice area but nowhere near 800K nice.
What I find so odd is that the listing would highlight two major drawbacks, the school district and proximity to the el. Neither of those are positives with this location so why mention them at all?
“So I was just checking out some suburban McMansions today and have come to the conclusions that most of you all are stupid, at least those trying to raise kids in the city.”
Bob, I thought you concluded long ago that everybody who doesn’t see the world as you see it is stupid?
Also, please explain the phrase: “demographics are more favorable.” I’d really like to know what you meant by that.
Hey, this is in my hood! But if I had $800k, I definitely wouldn’t be living here. 🙁
Public transportation can sometimes be a pain, and that little pocket by Swedish Covenant is blah on the nightlife. Suits my purposes for now (thus the “poorgrad”), but gawd at $800k a whole bunch of more desirable neighborhoods would open up to me.
Seriously, is the listing price a mistake? The listing agent’s strange listing style doesn’t even seem like she’s been to the property…?
“living a much more affordable lifestyle in, say, Huntley,”
So that, what? I never see my kids awake during the week? Or are you suggesting that we all can get equivalent paying jobs–tomorrow–in Crystal Lake?
You can’t even take the train to Huntley–it’s 3.5-4 hours total of driving to the loop each day. It’d be 3+ hours r/t to Oak Brook. May as well move to Ohio and commute.
“have come to the conclusions that most of you all are stupid”
Yes, it’s stupid to want my children to have quick and easy access to parks, museums, culture, and DIVERSITY.
And yes, my commute is 20 minutes, so more time at home with the kiddos.
White flight worked out pretty well for everyone the first time around, right? (note sarcasm)
“May as well move to Ohio and commute.”
Okay substitute another ‘burb then: Plainfield. Its refreshing to see the prices of these sorta burbs have absolutely tanked since this whole correction started.
Whereas it appears many on here are waiting for Godot with regard to city valuations and still thinking they can stretch to live the dream and this is all possible and they can actually live a decent middle class lifestyle in Crook County.
I look forward to continuing to see the Crook County government trample on all of these unrealistic dreams.
I just hope your typical breeder-urban-refugees don’t bring their failed progressive paradigms with them like the BoWash Corridor folk do (and ruining) to NoVa and the Californians are doing to Arizona.
“Yes, it’s stupid to want my children to have quick and easy access to parks, museums, culture, and DIVERSITY. ”
If you have to put something in capital letters because you think it should have some sort of intrinsic value doesn’t actually lend intrinsic value to it. Sorry in your head you drank the Kool Aid that this is some sort of great thing.
I think what you will find is the majority of greenzone folks only pay lip service to these progressive talking points and that these hoods are, more or less, majority one race. And this lack of diversity, more or less, lends to these higher property valuations.
Don’t talk the D-word here unless you walk the walk. Whats the demographic breakdown of YOUR Chicago community area?
Looking at zillow its an $800k house surrounded by $300k homes. Why would you buy the most expensive house on the block by 3x the average?
Is zillow way off on the estimates of the other homes? I have found them to be more right then wrong in most cases.
“Plainfield”
Who wants to spend 3 hours a day (at minimum) in their car?
“Looking at zillow its an $800k house surrounded by $300k homes. Why would you buy the most expensive house on the block by 3x the average?”
It does have a double+ (54′) lot …
But there’s another colonial down the block on a 45′ lot, 4/1.5 for $589k. Which seems like about the right price for this place, unless there’s something they aren’t showing.
I don’t think you live in Plainfield and work in the city. rather, you work for a fortune 500 company off the I-88 corridor or in Oak Brook right off I-355.
Plainfield is really as soulless as it gets, but if I were OK with driving, and I could spend $250k for a turn-key SFH, and I had 3 kids and no extra money for to pay for private schools in the city…plainfield is the solution to all of those problems. Many of your neighbors are like minded younger couples with children too and they run around the ‘hood and play unsupervised and such.
Try driving around portgage park or albany park on a weekend night during the summer; it’s roving bands of sketchy looking teenagers walking everywhere and then lots hoopty cars with loud bass trolling the streets and up to no good.
“#AC on September 20th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
“Plainfield”
Who wants to spend 3 hours a day (at minimum) in their car?”
“Try driving around portgage park or albany park on a weekend night during the summer; it’s roving bands of sketchy looking teenagers walking everywhere and then lots hoopty cars with loud bass trolling the streets and up to no good. ”
Or Aurora. Plainfield (and other ‘burbs of the sort) has a dangerously high likelihood of turning into that in a decade.
“Whats the demographic breakdown of YOUR Chicago community area?”
I live in Uptown, so you can park your high horse too, pal. I grew up in a burb with the two token minority kids who got pummeled after school every day; I had to learn the “intrinsic value” of empathy for those who qualify as ‘other’. Maybe you should try taking a class on it yourself.
“I don’t think you live in Plainfield and work in the city. rather, you work for a fortune 500 company off the I-88 corridor or in Oak Brook right off I-355.”
I think for those working in the burbs, living there can make a lot of sense. But if you have a good job in the city, giving that up might not be an option especially in this market. And I still think its different when you are talking young kids vs teenagers. I’ll happily move to the burbs for high school, but it just doesn’t make sense at the moment or for the next 10 years.
Ignorance and arrogance.
Accusing others of drinking Kool Aid when you’ve gulped it so fast you it ran down your chin and stained your shirt red.
I’ve shown that many high schools in the suburbs are more diverse than schools in the city. Schurz is 90% hispanic whereas my high school in the suburbs was only 60% white. Your children will grow up with more diversity at prospect or fremd high school than in the city.
anon(tfo) I’ve never been to Aurora. But I hear it’s no good.
By favorable demographics Bob means higher incomed middle class sfh family dwellings with less riff raff. I’ve been to huntley, quite recently in fact, and the roving bands of skateboarding teenagers are far less intimidating than roving bands of teenage thug looking wannabes high school dropouts flashing gang signs at hoopty cars passing by at all hours of the night.
“Plainfield is really as soulless as it gets, but if I were OK with driving, and I could spend $250k for a turn-key SFH, and I had 3 kids and no extra money for to pay for private schools in the city…plainfield is the solution to all of those problems.”
Cue Groove. You could make do in Oriole Park or similar, at least up to high school. I don’t know if it would be “turn-key” but $250K will get you something pretty livable there.
“Plainfield is really as soulless as it gets, but if I were OK with driving, and I could spend $250k for a turn-key SFH, and I had 3 kids and no extra money for to pay for private schools in the city…plainfield is the solution to all of those problems. Many of your neighbors are like minded younger couples with children too and they run around the ‘hood and play unsupervised and such.”
100% true
RE: the schools
They tell you alot about the neighborhood too – like if there are active families and what the local area is looking for from life. Chances are if you look at the schools then family may be at least a glimmer in your mind and if a community can get together and improve a local school then prop values will rise and business will move into the area… Not to mention the idea that not all of us want to pay tuition or live in the burbs.
“Schurz is 90% hispanic whereas my high school in the suburbs was only 60% white. Your children will grow up with more diversity at prospect or fremd high school than in the city.”
1. Prospect is 86% white.
2. Fremd is 77% white.
3. Schurz is 81% chicano/latino.
So, even beyond the fact that no one who engages in these conversations is going to send their kids to Schurz, your numbers are wrong enough to invalidate your example.
“Not to mention the idea that not all of us want to pay tuition or live in the burbs.”
But that makes you a bad parent who cannot possibly make education your top priority. Bad Mommy/Daddy!! You’ve doomed your kids to not being like Clio.
On the one hand, Bob actually makes a point with respect to many white city dwellers paying mere “lip service” when it comes to “diversity.” If that were really of paramount importance, everyone would live in Hyde Park (with Oak Park and Evanston being the only non Chicago options). At least in terms of desirable places to live in the area.
On the other hand, I think you might be overstating the degree of lip service, Bob. Is Chicago highly segregated? Absolutely. But if overall racial integration were a priority, one would choose a different city altogether, e.g., Atlanta (which if far better racially integrated than Chi, NY, DC or LA). In any event, I’m constantly (pleasantly) surprised at the degree of diversity at our playground in east LP. Europeans, people from various Spanish-speaking countries, Israelis, African-Americans, Latinos, Asians, and just about everybody else under the sun. Do they all live in the immediate neighborhood? I don’t think so, but they nonetheless contribute to the diverse urban environment that I want for myself and my kid.
Bob, I’m curious, given the low regard in which you hold Chicago (its government, its liberal majority, and its minorities, gays/lesbians, etc.), why are you working to make a life here? From what I gather, you’re (admirably) saving, living responsibly and waiting for the right time to buy something in the city. The culture and aesthetics of urban living are either something you desire or they ar not (i.e., you’re willing to pay the taxes, deal with the corrupt political establishment, have a smaller home, etc.).
Personally, I could only fathom living in a handful of areas of Chicago: (i) LP, LV, GC, OT, BT, RV, OIP, RWood/Aville (and perhaps RN/SL for a short, childless stint); (ii) Oak Park; (iii) or the eastern sections of Evanston and up through the North Shore communities (and as I’m disinclined to live in the burbs, it’s option (i) for the foreseeable future). Otherwise, why not live near an ocean, the mountains, or in the equivalents of options (i) – (iii) above in one of the other half-dozen largest cities in the country?
Listing is a hoot! We’ll see this listing for next few years, or until it becomes a short sale or foreclosure. That “sold” price had to be rehabber’s refinancing, even at 2006 market-peak this house wasn’t in $800,000+ ballpark.
Not located in “real” Lincoln Square nor Budlong Woods, this area is a former Greek ethnic enclave. Call it “Swedish Covenantville”. Little to do in this immediate melting-pot ethnic neighborhood with little cachet.
UGH…WHY do I let Clio give me a stroke everytime he writes about the damn school issue? As a parent of an 8th grader who is going through the process of trying to get in to high school, may I remind you that Payton, Northside prep, and Whitney Young, are ALL rated higher than your precious New Trier, a school that I went to and hated. I live in a multi million dollar home, and will strongly defend our choice to raise an educated, thriving child who is exposed to the world in a meaningful way on a daily basis, in the city. How dare you pontificate from what ever fantasy world you are living in on what loving, caring parents who make the same choice as I, feel about education. Opinions outside one’s own thinking are always valuable, and G-d know’s that parenting offers the ability to choose wrong often…but to hear someone make endless blanket statements on such a serious, personal issue makes me crazy.
“C” , sorry about giving you a stroke – but we aren’t comparing Payton, Northside Prep and Whitney Young – we are talking about other schools. Again, I understand and agree that schooling is important to EVERY parent – my beef is w/ people on this site who contend that it is their #1 priority and then pontificate about whether CPS school A is better than CPS school B and make it seem as though they are buying the house for the school – NO- you are buying the house b/c you are too selfish to move to the suburbs (nothing wrong w/ that) – just don’t pretend to be so selfless
Oh.. and by the way, I actually went to school in the city (U of C. Lab School) so I am not some suburban moron who only thinks that suburban schools are great.
I fail to see how it is selfish to live in the city with kids. My wife works for the city and is therefore required to live here. Even if she didn’t work for the city, I would prefer to have a 1 hour round trip commute living in the city as opposed to a 2-3 hour commute living in the burbs. Spending more to live in the city is a sacrifice a lot of people make so that they can spend more time at home. As far as I’m concerned, if I’m going to live in the burbs, I might as well move to Indy or Columbus. Good schools, cheap houses, and a short commute. You only get one of those things living in the Chicago suburbs.
Asians and whites make up 10% of Schurz (7.9% and 2.1% as of 2007-2008).
Prospect may have been an bad example.
But how about Hoffman? 53% white;
Schaumburg – 60% white
Conant – 70% white
Elk Grove – 65%
Wheeling – 51%
So all I’m trying to say that these are all fully integrated schools in the suburbs. You might live in a diverse area of the city but your child’s school high school may not be as diverse.
“anon (tfo) on September 20th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
“Schurz is 90% hispanic whereas my high school in the suburbs was only 60% white. Your children will grow up with more diversity at prospect or fremd high school than in the city.”
1. Prospect is 86% white.
2. Fremd is 77% white.
3. Schurz is 81% chicano/latino.
So, even beyond the fact that no one who engages in these conversations is going to send their kids to Schurz, your numbers are wrong enough to invalidate your example.”
“Oh.. and by the way, I actually went to school in the city (U of C. Lab School) ”
Wow, **least** shocking thing I’ve read in a while. On the level of “the sun will come up tomorrow”.
Oh God!! OK – let’s get this straight: Schools ARE important for everyone. A city education provides much that suburban schools don’t (an education in life, etc.). My problem is w/ very hyper-concerned parents on this site obsessing over which public schools are the best. These people are considering 800k houses and pretending that schools are their number 1 priority – I want to say to them that obviously the quality of schools are not the number 1 priority (o/w they would move to the suburbs)- which is fine – just don’t pretend that they are. Whatever… let’s drop this idiotic back and forth!!
“So all I’m trying to say that these are all fully integrated schools in the suburbs. You might live in a diverse area of the city but your child’s school high school may not be as diverse. ”
When all one sees is which ethnic box is checked, sure.
ps: The top 5 CPS high schools (WY, WP, NS, Jones, Lane) are all under 40% for the largest census-box group.
C – what’s the process like for the magnets? Pretty intense? I’m still 15-16 years away from having to push but thinking of perhaps moving in the spring. The move (hah clio!) would be nearly 100% predicated by the overlap of local high school + neighborhood, and I’d prefer my light rail on this perfect cake slice as well.
Thus far it’s looking like I need to fall into Lincoln’s zone if I’m not going to bet 100% on the hypothetical future child getting into a magnet. Thus – is that as risky of a bet or should I pay up and hedge now w/ a Lincoln move?
Happy to move this conversation off the board as well.
“My problem is w/ very hyper-concerned parents on this site obsessing over which public schools are the best. ”
Proving–again–that reading comp isn’t your strength.
“my beef is w/ people on this site who contend that it is their #1 priority and then pontificate about whether CPS school A is better than CPS school B and make it seem as though they are buying the house for the school ”
I don’t think anyone has stated that it’s their #1 priority, though. At least not in this thread. And your first comment was:
“why do people pretend to care about schools when spending over 750k? ” You said nothing about #1 priority, you implied that people who choose to live in the city “pretend to care about schools”. Which is, frankly, horseshit.
“Thus far it’s looking like I need to fall into Lincoln’s zone if I’m not going to bet 100% on the hypothetical future child getting into a magnet. Thus – is that as risky of a bet or should I pay up and hedge now w/ a Lincoln move?”
If you really mean HS: (1) the LPHS attendance area is a lot bigger than Lincoln Elem attendance area (mayer, alcott, others too); (2) at least for now, it might well be *more* intense than college application process; (3) no matter what, don’t depend on an admit to a selective-enrollment HS; (4) BUT, there are a lot of reasonable alternates on the private side and probably will be even more by the time you need one.
Ok – read the posts between mine above and you can palpate the concern and worry over getting children into the best chicago schools. Why NOT just move to Winnetka/Kenilworth/O.B/Hinsdale if that IS the biggest concern? I just don’t get it.
There is nothing selfish about trying to raise children in the city. I don’t judge anyone who wants to move to the burbs to raise their children and I expect the same in return. All parents are trying to balance many things when making decisions about schools, work, etc and to assume that one decision makes a parent selfish is Ill informed and ignorant. Go judge someone else.
“read the posts between mine above and you can palpate the concern and worry over getting children into the best chicago schools.”
Nice mixed metaphor. You never discuss anything you aren’t terribly worried about? No wonder you’re so much fun.
“Why NOT just move to Winnetka/Kenilworth/O.B/Hinsdale if that IS the biggest concern?”
Because one doesn’t think that would be the best environment for one’s kids? Just one thought on the matter; there are *lots* of others that you are plainly to blinkered, narcissistic, ignorant or some combination thereof to even comprehend.
“I just don’t get it.”
This. Undoubtedly true. No one here will argue that point with you.
“I don’t judge anyone who wants to move to the burbs to raise their children and I expect the same in return.”
But how do you feel about a single man w/o kids who lives in the suburbs judging your values and your child rearing? Does someone like that manage to not get judged by you, too?
anon – go have another drink..
“go have another drink”
Taking me up on the “talk what you know”, eh?
anon- got to hand it to you – you are persistent and funny. you win.
Wicker,
I hate to give “anyone” more grist for the mill, but the selective High school situation is BEYOND nightmarish. Everything is done on a point system. 900 points are the highest goal. 7th grade grades,and 7th grade testing, are added together. Your child MUST get all A’s and test in to the top 10th percentile, or get 1 B and test in the top 5th percentile to be elligible. 10,000 kids for only a few hundred spaces. If you live in the Lincoln Park district and your child goes to private school (like mine), you can automatically be admitted to the double honors program and skip all the rigamoroll. Lincoln Park high school is still thought to be “urban” by the majority of parents at my daughter’s school. There is a BIG difference between a slective school, where everybody has tested in and wants to be there, and a neighborhood school. With the demographic of Lincoln changing, by the time you are ready to face this, it might not be an issue.
price seems way high….i agree,they did make the interior way too bland.
and nice threadjack bob…took all the attention away from clio for a change.
C-
Interesting perspective and I’m curious —
What do you mean when you say that if your child goes to a private school they are automatically admitted to the double honors program? At LPHS? You don’t even have to test into it?
“but the selective High school situation (in chicago) is BEYOND nightmarish”
Great endorsement for sending kids to Chicago schools, C.
perhaps it is the chicago school system that is “giving you a stroke” and not me…..
“Bob, I’m curious, given the low regard in which you hold Chicago (its government, its liberal majority, and its minorities, gays/lesbians, etc.), why are you working to make a life here? From what I gather, you’re (admirably) saving, living responsibly and waiting for the right time to buy something in the city. The culture and aesthetics of urban living are either something you desire or they ar not (i.e., you’re willing to pay the taxes, deal with the corrupt political establishment, have a smaller home, etc.).”
I enjoy certain amenities of the city. What gets me enraged is the ensconced political class that has attached a much higher cost of living in the city through no mechanisms other than government intervention. You hit the nail on the head: corruption, high taxes, political favoritism, “equal outcomes” (ie: senior exemptions on RE taxes).
Definitely not buying in the city until I have more visibility on the financial outlook for the city. I’d be willing to bet Mayor Daley is going to leave the city on financially unsound footing as he was never willing to stand up to the public sector unions. The property-owning class, (esp. the greenzone) is going to have a giant crosshair on their back to help cover these shortfalls. When is enough enough?
“Personally, I could only fathom living in a handful of areas of Chicago: (i) LP, LV, GC, OT, BT, RV, OIP, RWood/Aville (and perhaps RN/SL for a short, childless stint); (ii) Oak Park; (iii) or the eastern sections of Evanston and up through the North Shore communities (and as I’m disinclined to live in the burbs, it’s option (i) for the foreseeable future).”
You just described the greenzone to a tee.
“What do you mean when you say that if your child goes to a private school they are automatically admitted to the double honors program? At LPHS? You don’t even have to test into it?”
LPHS has four programs: Regular track, double honors, IB and fine arts. The “regular” track program is basically a remedial track for neighborhood kids who come in not working at grade level. The “double honors” track is for those who come in working a little higher than grade level, so it’s basically all neighborhood kids who earned pretty good grades in privates and public elementary schools and have pretty good test scores. It’s not hard to get into the DH program.
Clio said:
“As I said before – schools ARE important to EVERYONE, but don’t pretend that education is your #1 priority if you are considering a place in the city… it simply, unarguably positively is NOT.”
Actually, if you look at the Sun-Times ranking, if education was your #1 priority, then you’d start by living in the city in the Lincoln Elementary district. You’d try to get your kid(s) into one of the selective enrollment elementary schools like Decatur Classical, Keller Gifted, etc. If you weren’t able to do that, you’d send them to Lincoln Elementary (higher ranked than North Shore elementary schools, according to Sun Times). Once your kids hit 7th grade, you’d try to get them into Payton College Prep, Northside Prep, or (maybe) Whitney Young for high school. If that didn’t work, then you’d move to the New Trier area for high school.
So if you really cared about your kid’s education, you’d live in the city.
“So if you really cared about your kid’s education, you’d live in the city.”
Please don’t tell me you believe everything you read in the papers – especially the Chicago Sun Times!! You really have to look at the criteria used for rankings. Chicago magazine also has several rankings (one of their best sellers is the “Best doctors” issue) – what a joke. I know some of the doctors in this this magazine and, amongst the people in the know, they are no more than glorified hacks/quacks!! TRankings many times are no more than popularity contests/advertisements disguised as scientific studies. If payton prep/whitney young are better than new trier/hinsdale central, let’s look at their graduate placement in college. Let the colleges that accept these graduates be your guide/judge as to the worthiness of the schools.
Beware the burnout. Kids that get pushed so hard (as opposed to those that are self starters and push themselves) can end up having some rough years along the way. Of course, you can always get them some performance enhancers, er, adhd medication, to help push them along. Very tough being a parent these days.
“If education was your #1 priority, then you’d start by living in the city in the Lincoln Elementary district. You’d try to get your kid(s) into one of the selective enrollment elementary schools like Decatur Classical, Keller Gifted, etc. If you weren’t able to do that, you’d send them to Lincoln Elementary (higher ranked than North Shore elementary schools, according to Sun Times). Once your kids hit 7th grade, you’d try to get them into Payton College Prep, Northside Prep, or (maybe) Whitney Young for high school.”
You do NOT need to test in to the double honors program if you come from certain private schools. All others do. It is considered on par with whitney Young. Testing is rigorous and you must score at least in the 80th percentile to attend, so it is harder than you imagine to get in to double honors at LPHS. The “regular” program has many kids in it that did not make the cut, it is not remedial but has that reputation since it is a “Neighborhood” school.
Of COURSE the system is giving me a stroke, Clio…but you add to it with your assumption of what is important to my family without knowing why it is that we stay here, or who we are as people.
“C” – please don’t get upset. I truly believe that you are doing the best for your child/children (it is obvious from your posts). I went to high school in Hyde Park (south side of Chicago – a terribly dangerous and very scary area) and learned invaluable lessons in life that I would not have learned in the suburbs (e.g. how to get along w/ people, how to be tolerant and non-judgemental). I truly do admire your efforts for your children. I am sure you will continue doing the awesome job ensuring a well rounded education. They certainly are lucky to have such a caring parent (I am serious)!!
“I went to high school in Hyde Park (south side of Chicago – a terribly dangerous and very scary area) ”
Wow clio me wonders how long you would survive in a real, true, southside Chicago neighborhood. Did you ever venture south, west or north from Hyde Park? Surely not as I’m quite sure you heart couldn’t take the stress.
There’s a game to getting into certain elite colleges, Clio, you know that. It’s not really about the “quality” of the high school you go to.
But that being said- if you question whether Payton Prep kids can get into certain schools on par with New Trier or the other good suburban high school- the answer is: yes they can. Average ACT score at New Trier is about 27. Same at Payton. You think Harvard doesn’t want the Payton grads? Pulease.
But I’ve heard it’s actually harder to get your kid into Payton than it is to get into Harvard. Is that true? One of my friend’s kids didn’t get in and she went to Latin instead.
By the way- I’m just curious given that we’re again discussing schools- with all the people moving into certain elementary school districts (Blaine and Bell etc.) what happens when their kids reach high school age?
If the system really is as bad as C describes- are there even enough slots in the private schools to take all those kids who don’t get into one of the top CPS high schools?
“Beware the burnout. Kids that get pushed so hard (as opposed to those that are self starters and push themselves) can end up having some rough years along the way. Of course, you can always get them some performance enhancers, er, adhd medication, to help push them along. Very tough being a parent these days. ”
You are exactly right. Kids that are pushed too hard by their parents run the risk of burnout or turning on their parents when they hit years where there peers have more influence.
I knew a lot of people with straight A’s in HS who in undergrad basically loved being from out of the watchful and approving eye of their parents and treated it as those years to party their ass off.
I was always one to do my own thing and think if my parents had tried to push me I would’ve definitely pushed back on that. I guess I’ve been lucky in that I’ve never felt the need for their approval (at least from age ~15 on, when I started smoking weed haha).
My older sis on the other hand always aimed to please them–all kinds of extra-curricular activities, harder classes in HS, honors, As, etc. Now she lives much closer to them but is in what I consider a menial job vs. mine (remuneration wise as well).
“Wow clio me wonders how long you would survive in a real, true, southside Chicago neighborhood. ”
I don’t get it – Hyde Park IS in the real, true south side of Chicago. Even though my parents bought the kids a condo right on campus (immediately adjacent to the Lab School), I still had to walk around. Of course, most nights (esp. in college) I usually had some “liquid courage” in my favor… ahh those nights at “The Pub” at Ida Noyes – great times…..
I’d pay $800,000 for that house.
Scoring in 80th percentile or higher on standardized tests like the ISATs is not that hard to do. Kids do not have to “test in” to the DH program at LPHS. They look at the student’s grades, ISATs, and SE test results. There is no special test to get into the DH program. My child goes to Lincoln and most Lincoln grads get into the DH program.
Plenty of private school kids try for Payton, Northside or Whitney Young, but if they don’t get it, go to private high schools as a fallback. They go to Latin, Parker, Lab, British, St. Ignatius, St. Ben’s, De LaSalle, Gordon Tech, and others. While some high schools have limited spots (obviously the first three listed), many others have plenty of room for more kids and it’s just a matter of applying and paying tuition. As competition gets worse, more of these families will take another look at Jones and Lane Tech, and maybe the new Alcott and Ogden high schools, and that will help absorb some of the high schoolers as well.
“As competition gets worse, more of these families will take another look at Jones and Lane Tech, and maybe the new Alcott and Ogden high schools, and that will help absorb some of the high schoolers as well.”
….or, they will learn from the mistakes of their predecessors and move to the suburbs where schools (like New Trier and Hinsdale Central) have a long history of ridiculously great college placement (and, they are free)….. Seriously, why do city of chicago parents put up with all of this ridiculousness – when N.T./H.C. have just as good (actually, better) ameneties, programs, and placement than these private schools?!!!
“I don’t get it – Hyde Park IS in the real, true south side of Chicago.”
Hyde Park is a bubble of decency as compared with surrounding neighborhoods. Sure its no north side hood and I know several classmates of mine that were robbed, some at gunpoint. But its really much better than surrounding neighborhoods.
Try WWW (walking while white) around Woodlawn (further S than 63rd), Douglas/Oakland, or Washington Park then get back to us.
Two points: first, more sources than the Sun-Times (like US News) rank Walter Payton and Northside above New Trier. Since you judge them based on colleges, do you have a link showing that students do better in college admissions from New Trier than WP or Northside. (As an aside, Francis Parker does list its college admissions and, surprisingly, I was unimpressed).
Second, I admit I got a good laugh out of you calling Hyde Park the “true south side of Chicago.” Well done.
“do you have a link showing that students do better in college admissions from New Trier than WP or Northside. (As an aside, Francis Parker does list its college admissions and, surprisingly, I was unimpressed).”
I will try to find one – I have seen, at various times in the past 5 years the college placement at Hinsdale Central and New Trier, Lane Tech, Whitney Young as well as many private schools in the area. I was shocked at how great the placement was at Hinsdale Central/New Trier compared to Lane Tech/Whitney young. Latin School and The U. of C. Lab school (my alma mater) of course had good placement – but not as great as you would expect for 20-25k/year. Again, this is all talk until I can prove it – so I will try to find the info – it would once and for all put an end to these ridiculous discusssions!!
Clio my friend the advocate for telling people to shut up when they don’t “live the life” so don’t know or their opinion means Jack.
Doode this is a area where you need to step out and live by your own motto.
You continue quoting New Trier and hinsdale, which are good schools but you leave out Adai S, Naper north, glennbrook as other alternatives (which Asia is better than hinsdale).
And to that talking out of bum, you as a single man talking about peoples kids ejumakayshion is funny on many levels and again stick to you motto.
The best yet is your wonderful quote on how you went to school in the city on the scary south side.
Again doode, you went to lab school in Hyde park, really no “street cred card” for you.
You went to private school and then ivy, stick to yapping about that, leave the CPS stuff to us city parents and the few others hete that are products of CPS.
Now if your goal is comic relief or devils advocate, just give us a heads up disclaimer so the hands up disbelief anger will be avoided
I understand your point – but I happen to be a single man w/ two children (granted, they don’t live w/ me – ex is making sure I have as little to do w/ them as possible) – but these are issues that are still extremely important to me. My kids happen to go to school out of state, but my ex and I had incredibly long discussions regarding public/private/boarding schools here, in L.A. (where she lives) as well as out boarding schools out east.
“Or Aurora. Plainfield (and other ‘burbs of the sort) has a dangerously high likelihood of turning into that in a decade.”
Plainfield? easily in half a decade.
Aurora is pretty sad and scary in many many areas.
“The best yet is your wonderful quote on how you went to school in the city on the scary south side.
Again doode, you went to lab school in Hyde park, really no “street cred card” for you. ”
“Now if your goal is comic relief ”
I seriously thought it was! “Scary Hyde Park!” LMAO!
“I was shocked at how great the placement was at Hinsdale Central/New Trier compared to Lane Tech/Whitney young. Latin School and The U. of C. Lab school (my alma mater) of course had good placement – but not as great as you would expect for 20-25k/year. Again, this is all talk until I can prove it – so I will try to find the info – it would once and for all put an end to these ridiculous discusssions!!”
As we already discussed on another thread a few weeks ago- certain colleges will only take so many students from certain high schools. So New Trier or the Hinsdale high schools can only place so many students in the Ivy League. It’s not like Princeton is going to accept 25 students from New Trier- no matter how great they are. Same with the lab school or Latin.
I remember a Wall Street Journal article from a few years ago where this middle class family worked 2 jobs for years to send their son to one of the exclusive east coast boarding schools so he would get into a “good” college. He didn’t end up getting into the ivies because he ranked like 40th out of 100 students at that school- but got into other good colleges like John Hopkins and Carneige Mellon. His parents were completely disillusioned. But at that boarding school- it’s not like ALL of the 100 kids are going to the ivies. That’s the myth about the private or “good” high schools.
New Trier is 4 times larger than Walter Payton. I’m sure if you compare the actual colleges students have gone to- it’s not that much different (with a smattering of the ivies and the other top private schools mixed in with a whole bunch going to U of I and the other Big Ten schools like Northwestern and Michigan.)
“this middle class family worked 2 jobs for years to send their son to one of the exclusive east coast boarding schools so he would get into a “good” college. He didn’t end up getting into the ivies because he ranked like 40th out of 100 students at that school- but got into other good colleges like John Hopkins and Carneige Mellon.”
Interesting point Sabrina – my ex wife researched schools tirelessly before we sent our son to boarding school in N.H. – the placement at this boarding school is PHENOMENAL!!! Of the 250 or so graduating seniors, they consistently place 25% in top Ivy League schools, 50% in great schools (Cornell, Brown, Columbia, Hopkins, UofC) and 25% in OK schools (Northwestern, Georgetown, Michigan etc.). When I thought about it – I realized that just b/c you are rich doesn’t mean you are smart – therefore for a school to have such great placement even w/ the poorest students, it is a great school. The funny thing about the WSJ article is that it doesn’t mention the academic ability of the kid – maybe if the kid went to a public school, he wouldn’t have even gotten into any college. Everything is relative…..l
Clio, Northwestern is considered a great school. According to the latest U.S. News Rankings, it is pretty much tied with U of C and Johns Hopkins. Don’t start lumping NU in with Michigan and Georgetown (which are not half bad, either)!
First, while I may well (happily and hopefully) end up sending my kid to one of the selective public high schools, of course I would rather send her to Parker or Latin if I could afford it. College placement rates be damned.
Second, good grief, I hope my kid doesn’t want to go to Harvard. While I can see the value of, say, Brown (it’s smaller, offers self-designed majors, many of the students hang out with the artsy typles at RISD, etc.), with all of the striving to get into a place like Harvard, then all the competitive types there striving some more, it seems that the true value of a college education gets lost, or at least dilluted. If you’re kid has great high school grades and scores and you have a good amount of money, yet when you “value” a college you think in terms of its job opportunities, well then that’s just sad.
It’s interesting to read the school comments. School boundaries change, school administration changes, school programs change, and so does politics, especially in Chicago. There are no guarantees and realistically you can’t change your kids.
My sincere gratitude to those who answered about LPHS. Looks like I’ll be shopping in that hyper competitive district soon to put down the roots for 12+ years.
The reality is that enough people focus on school quality to make it a major factor in pricing. I’m single, my kids, are grown, but I’m going to look to some degree at school district as well. If it’s an area of large SFHs (i.e., a family market), prices are high, and the schools are crappy, I’m going to stay away because my assumption is that values will drop over time.
To dd’s point, some people do obsess over schools. I lived in Naperville and we had people move out of the subdivision over rumours that it would not be included in the boundaries of the new HS. Turns out they changed the boundaries and those people could have stayed put.
“Of the 250 or so graduating seniors, they consistently place 25% in top Ivy League schools, 50% in great schools (Cornell, Brown, Columbia, Hopkins, UofC) and 25% in OK schools”
I don’t believe these stats because 25% of 250 graduating would be 62 kids going to the “top” ivies (I’m assuming you mean Harvard, Yale, Princeton.) That would be over 20 kids from one school going to each of these schools. I’ve never heard of such a thing. Princeton’s entering class isn’t big enough to have that happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if they took 5-8 maybe from a handful of top high schools. But that would be it. They are far too diverse to do so. Heck, even taking 62 students to ALL of the ivy league is stretching it. The schools, outside of Penn and Cornell, simply aren’t big enough. Remember, Princeton is taking something like 25 students from an entire STATE, not just a high school.
Why the obsession with the ivy league?. It’s all a sham anyway. You get a much better education at the big public universities. And more CEOs are from those universities and small private colleges than the ivy league.
“…with all of the striving to get into a place like Harvard, then all the competitive types there striving some more, it seems that the true value of a college education gets lost, or at least dilluted. ”
It is interesting – to me, there are two purposes of a college education. First and foremost it is to stimulate the mind/motivate the sould and help the student find their path in life. Secondly, it is to help ensure/increase chances of getting a good job/graduate school, etc. To the first purpose, there are MANY MANY MANY colleges at all levels that are well suited. As for the second purpose, you want to send your kid to the most prestigious school. Being from Harvard and Stanford has opened SO many doors for me (professionally and socially) – doors that I wouldn’t even have had a chance to get my foor in otherwise. When i look at the pople at Harvard/Stanford – sure they are very smart – but so are a lot of people out there (including on this site!!). The advantage the alum from these prestigious schools may be unfair, but it is REAL. You HAVE to consider this when guiding kids.
“I don’t believe these stats because 25% of 250 graduating would be 62 kids going to the “top” ivies (I’m assuming you mean Harvard, Yale, Princeton.) ”
Phillips Exeter – check out the placement of the Exonians!!
Oh- okay- they are a feeder to Harvard. But it’s still not adding up to 62 students at the top three. Maybe 30 get into the top 3.
These are nationwide stats in this article below. So what is the acceptance rate at New Trier to Harvard? Like 5 or 6?
“Boston Latin had 21 students accepted to Harvard, in second place after Stuyvesant High in New York City. Cambridge Rindge and Latin had the fourth most students admitted to Harvard with 12 acceptances — placing CRLS between New England prep schools Phillips Academy in Andover, and Phillips Exeter Academy.”
“Oh- okay- they are a feeder to Harvard. But it’s still not adding up to 62 students at the top three. Maybe 30 get into the top 3.”
Sorry Sabrina – you are right. just looked again at my info – basically, they are saying that 25-35%/year go to an Ivy League School (which obviously includes Dartmouth, Brown, Penn, Columbia, and Cornell) but that is still a HUGE number.
Also, I am surprised that Boston Latin had 21 accepted to Harvard!! I don’t think N.T. or H.C ever have more than 1-3 people/year – if that!!
George Bush and John Kerry have degrees from Yale.
’nuff said.
Repost from another thread, in case it gets buried:
Chris (tfo) — been posting here a few years (just not often)
clio — your debate-club shtick is old and tired and I cringed when I read you were a fellow uchicago alum.
So clio is “from” Stanford and Harvard and went to uchicago — got your bases covered, dude! Now all you have to do is grow a pair and join the rest of us in the real world, the one in which a young, dual income couple will entertain the possibility of an iffy neighborhood if the tradeoff in price and amenities makes it worthwhile. That’s what they call a “budget constraint” at U of C.
“Also, I am surprised that Boston Latin had 21 accepted to Harvard!! I don’t think N.T. or H.C ever have more than 1-3 people/year – if that!!”
The NT/HC number has to be low. I think 1-3 would be right for a very good, but not absolute top tier, public high school, which I thought NT at least was from reputation.
“they are saying that 25-35%/year go to an Ivy League School (which obviously includes Dartmouth, Brown, Penn, Columbia, and Cornell) but that is still a HUGE number.”
It’s a big number (if that’s right) but you’ve got to account for legacies who would get in as long as they were respectable students (I don’t really know how many that is these days). Also, Andover/Exeter are really aiming for a bit of a current Y/H model these days, trying to ramp up the quality of their student base, beyond just being rich/exclusive. I’m guessing they’re like the Y/H of maybe the 1960s or 1970s at the moment in terms of mix of meritocracy and privilege.
Also, I was told Andover/Exeter’s college placements are fully public these days. Don’t have time to look/tabulate.
It’s no surprise that Boston Latin has such a high yield to Harvard. I used to teach at Boston Latin – the old saying was that there’s a tunnel connecting the two schools. But BLS opened it’s doors the year before Harvard and they’ve enjoyed a privileged relationship since. BLS regularly ranks mid-list in the US News and World Report’s top 100 high schools, so it ain’t the quality of the education getting them there (though I like to think I did a pretty good job!)
“It’s no surprise that Boston Latin has such a high yield to Harvard. I used to teach at Boston Latin – the old saying was that there’s a tunnel connecting the two schools. But BLS opened it’s doors the year before Harvard and they’ve enjoyed a privileged relationship since.”
Are admit rates from Boston Latin to H that much different from rates to Y, for students applying to both (I realize you can debate H and Y, but just curious about gross differences)?
“Also, I was told Andover/Exeter’s college placements are fully public these days. Don’t have time to look/tabulate.”
Exeter, here:
http://college.exeter.edu/published/newsletters/College%20Matriculation_2006-2008.html
42 matriculaters at Harvard over three (3) years–obviously somewhat more than that were admitted. 229 total for the 8 Ivies, again over 3 years. Out of 924 (per excel)–so right on 25% actually enroll, which probably means about 40% get into one or more Ivy.
clio: “I … learned invaluable lessons in life that I would not have learned in the suburbs (e.g. how to get along w/ people, how to be tolerant and non-judgemental).”
See? The high-falutin’ education doesn’t always work out so well, does it?
Andover matriculation list (7 year period):
http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Pages/SchoolProfileCollegeMatriculations.aspx
So, those who truely care about educting their children will live in the city and ship them off to Exeter or Boston Latin. Good, looks like we have cleared something up here.
NEW TRIER IS NOT YOUR TICKET TO RICHES!
Late to this thread, but want to point out one thing that everyone seems to be missing. If you want to get your kid into Harvard / Yale / Princeton / etc., the best thing you can do is go to one of those schools yourself. If New Trier beats out Whitney Young in sending more kids to these schools it’s likely because more of the New Trier parents went to these schools. This obviously more true when you start looking at Exeter, Andover, etc. I know this for a fact. I was the first in my family to go to college and I remember when I went to visit Brown. I had a very candid conversation with an admissions counselor where she laid all the data out for me. The message was loud and clear: what I had to do as a non-legacy to get in was very different than what a legacy had to do. This was a while ago, so maybe things have changed, but I doubt it.
::disclaimer:: Totally went to Wheaton North, didn’t do so well at the spelling… truely=truly…
“right on 25% actually enroll, which probably means about 40% get into one or more Ivy.”
You think there are that many turning down an Ivy? I realize people may not want to go to Cornell or something, but not sure they would have applied there in the first place. If you add the clearly on par with the good Ivy’s it’s not that much. I’m not sure about the next tier.
“what I had to do as a non-legacy to get in [to Brown] was very different than what a legacy had to do. This was a while ago, so maybe things have changed, but I doubt it.”
Brown has the reputation (justified?) of relying more on legacies than the other Ivies, because they have the smallest endowment (fact) and legacy admissions help fund raising (fact).
But your general point is undoubtedly correct–there are more kids at the Phillips schools, etc. who would get in to H/Y/P or wherever regardless of where they went to HS, b/c they’re 4th or 5th or whatever generation legacies.
“I was the first in my family to go to college and I remember when I went to visit Brown. I had a very candid conversation with an admissions counselor where she laid all the data out for me. The message was loud and clear: what I had to do as a non-legacy to get in was very different than what a legacy had to do. This was a while ago, so maybe things have changed, but I doubt it.”
I’d be surprised if it was that significant a factor these days. If your name is not on something, I don’t think your kids get that much of a leg up. Probably no more than being able to say they are the first in their family to do X.
“Brown has the reputation (justified?) of relying more on legacies than the other Ivies, because they have the smallest endowment (fact) and legacy admissions help fund raising (fact).
But your general point is undoubtedly correct–there are more kids at the Phillips schools, etc. who would get in to H/Y/P or wherever regardless of where they went to HS, b/c they’re 4th or 5th or whatever generation legacies.”
Didn’t know that about Brown. I think you’ve really got to be a major legacy for it to make a difference. True even 20 years ago I think. Certainly knew of kids who were very good (e.g. good enough to get into Amherst w/o legacy status), but not exceptional students, with families that were very active alumni (but not major donors or Nth generation), who did not get into H/Y.
“You think there are that many turning down an Ivy? I realize people may not want to go to Cornell or something, but not sure they would have applied there in the first place. If you add the clearly on par with the good Ivy’s it’s not that much. I’m not sure about the next tier.”
It’s been a changing target over the past couple years–with the evolution of early action/decision policies. I may well be out of date, and relating to my application process experience/knowledge of ~20 years ago.
But, yeah, I think that everyone of the Exeter kids who got into Stanford (20), MIT (20), Chicago (12), etc (and some the “taking a year off” (19)) applied to at least one Ivy and got admitted to at least one–need to have 137 kids to hit 40%, and I bet it was in the ballpark. Maybe more like 1/3, but still.
“right on 25% actually enroll, which probably means about 40% get into one or more Ivy.”
I know someone who turned down an Ivy, no scholarship for a full ride to UofI – economic factors will allways play some role. zero vs 150k (back then) is a big deal.
“I know someone who turned down an Ivy, no scholarship for a full ride to UofI – economic factors will allways play some role.”
This, too, even for those who send there kids to Phillips, is always an issue. Some see the investment in HS costs as a DP on college costs. Same is true with Chicago selective-enrollment HS–some send kids to private school in 5/6/7 to improve chance of getting free, top-notch HS. And, yes, I have actually had that conversation with more than one person (I think it’s BS strategy and, all else equal, CPS elem students should get a preference over private elem students–and I’d feel the same way if my kids were going private).
“I know someone who turned down an Ivy, no scholarship for a full ride to UofI – economic factors will allways play some role. zero vs 150k (back then) is a big deal”
Stupid decision (esp. if it was a good Ivy league school). 150k won’t seem like a lot when his IVY rival gets a 150k job or better graduate school while your friend gets a 75k job, doesn’t get a job at all, or gets into an inferior graduate school. The world is tough out there, you have to do everything possible to get yourself ahead and think of the future.
“I know someone who turned down an Ivy, no scholarship for a full ride to UofI – economic factors will allways play some role. zero vs 150k (back then) is a big deal.”
I don’t think it was necessarily a bad decision, but the family must have been quite well off not to get any financial aid.
“I cringed when I read you were a fellow uchicago alum”
sorry Chris, but your disapproval doesn’t really affect me in any way. Most of the people that went to U. of C. (esp. those from out of state and those who weren’t from the lab school) were pseudo-intellectual Ivy league rejects. Not very impressive at all…..
DZ: “I don’t think it was necessarily a bad decision, but the family must have been quite well off not to get any financial aid.”
Depends on the time–the threshold for “need” became a lot higher fairly recently at H/Y/P/S. And if you have multiple kids, it’s a tougher decision, b/c you have to justify allocating that much $$ to one kid.
clio: “sorry Chris, but your disapproval doesn’t really affect me in any way. Most of the people that went to U. of C. (esp. those from out of state and those who weren’t from the lab school) were pseudo-intellectual Ivy league rejects. Not very impressive at all…..”
If you really learned anything about ‘how to get along w/ people, how to be tolerant and non-judgemental’, I really cannot imagine what you were like as a kid. And this is coming from someone who isn’t very good at getting along with people, or being tolerant, or being non-judgmental.
So…basically what everyone’s saying here (or implying) is that we should give up the CPS school system for dead, no matter how much the current/future mayor, school board, LSC’s etc. try to improve things on the neighborhood level? Because once a sub-standard school, always a sub-standard school.
Like Lincoln Park High, which was the sub-standard Waller before the nabe became yuppified and the new residents became instrumental in making the school the much-improved LPHS.
And Nettlehorst grade school in Lakeview, where “nobody” in the immediate area sent their kids, until now, when they, in fact, do so.
And isn’t Von Steuben a good “fallback option” for Albany Park/North Center teenagers who can’t or won’t go to North Side?
I think that the things that most parents should never forget are:
1. Your child’s happiness and mental well being are paramount and the absolute most important thing in the world.
2. The school which your child attends seems extremely important now (and is, to some degree) but it is what your child does at that school which is most important. Just wanting to get into a good college and plotting/planning RARELY works. Most of my colleagues at Harvard and Stanford were naturally gifted or naturally driven to excel in whatever field they were studying. Most children who have parents that push them may achieve some success, but it rarely translates into a top notch existence – you need self motivation for that!!
“And isn’t Von Steuben a good “fallback option” for Albany Park/North Center teenagers who can’t or won’t go to North Side?”
Not yet, at least. Don’t know anyone in NC going there (altho I’m sure there are)–LVHS is more likely. Mainly, it’s Lane, NSCP/WY/WP/Jones/LPHS-IB, Private, about equally split from the HS kids I know.
As to: “basically what everyone’s saying here (or implying) is that we should give up the CPS school system for dead”: that’s only remotely true if you translate “clio” to mean “everyone”. I don’t see anyone else saying that (Bob does sometimes, but he’s stayed out of this one, and HD’s making a diff point).
“The school which your child attends seems extremely important now (and is, to some degree) but it is what your child does at that school which is most important. ”
1. Something sensible about education! Is one of your kids visting and using your computer? Or is it your gardener again?
2. Doesn’t this point give the lie to your harping on “if you really cared about education, you’d move to OB/Hins/NT”? Or are you just saying this to try to get people off your case a bit?
3. If you feel that way, why did Ivy-admissions-rates rate (apparently) highly in your decision matrix for where your kids go to school?
omg take this discussion somewhere else no one cares.
I recently saw in the Wall Street Journal that many employers actually favor big state schools over the Ivys:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704358904575477643369663352.html
“omg take this discussion somewhere else no one cares.”
I’m sooo sorry we’ve forced you to read this.
Will someone please undo the voodoo on Barbaroo?
All this talk about schools, but what about parenting?
Seems like it would be rather difficult to be involved in your child’s life if you spend most of your time working/commuting to make big bucks so you can live in some elite north shore burb or ship your kid off to boarding school.
Believe it or not people can go to Big 10 Universities, graduate and get jobs that don’t pay 6 figures and still live a happy life.
clio’s offhanded put down of nu made me laugh. the wildcat’s instantaneous response was even funnier. rrrawl
“I recently saw in the Wall Street Journal that many employers actually favor big state schools over the Ivys”
Depends on the employer. Most F500 rank and file are indeed state school grads, so it makes sense.
You have a better chance of getting hired the more similarities you have with your interviewer, and that cuts both ways. Just as you aren’t likely to land a job at GE from Princeton, you similarly aren’t going to land a job at Goldman from U of I.
Also I would caution parents to take anything clio says about education/schooling/outlook/etc with a grain of salt because what I can surmise from Clio is that while he claims to have went to “top” schools and made a bunch of coin, from all appearances his personal life is an abysmal failure.
Looks like you got caught up on a lot of things (school brands, account sizes) that didn’t matter in life, did you clio? Sure money is an objective way to keep score, but even I know I’d rather not be you when I’m your age!
“1. Your child’s happiness and mental well being are paramount and the absolute most important thing in the world. ”
Happiness not necessarily. Certainly for their collegiate experience. But concentrating on maximizing/optimizing the happiness function early in life for your children is not the way to go. Its setting them up for a big arse kickin’ when it comes to being 18 vs otherwise.
“Believe it or not people can go to Big 10 Universities, graduate and get jobs that don’t pay 6 figures and still live a happy life.”
thank you DR. Funkenstein,
i know my life is pretty darn great and i dont make 6 figures, go Illini!!!
“Believe it or not people can go to Big 10 Universities, graduate and get jobs that don’t pay 6 figures and still live a happy life.”
Believe it or not, plenty of people do go to Big 10 schools, graduate and get jobs that DO pay 6 figures. They also get into top grad schools and work at Goldman. The generalizations on here are ridiculous to say the least.
“Believe it or not people can go to Big 10 Universities, graduate and get jobs that don’t pay 6 figures and still live a happy life.”
Believe it or not, plenty of people do go to Big 10 schools, graduate and get jobs that DO pay 6 figures. They also get into top grad schools (like Harvard) and work at Goldman. The generalizations on here are ridiculous to say the least.
“The generalizations on here are ridiculous to say the least.”
Hence the entertainment value. And I can’t believe we passed socialized healthcare so all of these doting parents will be able to get anxiety-reducers and blood pressure medication paid for on the taxpayer dole. Disgusting.
So off topic, but if you believe the health care bill was about socialized medicine, why did insurance and big pharma come out the big winners? The middle class gets very little from it.
“And I can’t believe we passed socialized healthcare so all of these doting parents will be able to get anxiety-reducers and blood pressure medication paid for on the taxpayer dole. Disgusting.”
“Most of the people that went to U. of C. (esp. those from out of state and those who weren’t from the lab school) were pseudo-intellectual Ivy league rejects. Not very impressive at all…”
clio has cracked the code on how to get visibility in Crib Chatter comments: troll from dawn to dusk. The trail blazed by anon (tfo) evidently requires more knowledge and thoughtfulness than clio can offer.
There were an awful lot of disappointed Ivy League hopefuls in my freshman class, but I’m not sure any of them were aspiring intellectuals. (Whether an aspiring intellectual can be anything more than pseudo at 19 is an open question.) Most were not “out of state” but rather from a particular set of states on the Eastern seaboard. I didn’t know many labbies but to the extent that I did, I wondered why their personal ambition and academic connections (many being professors’ kids, and reciprocal agreements being what they are) didn’t take them a wee further afield than two blocks west.
“stupid decision” Actually no, 0 undergrad debt 0 med school debt – UofM and now a practicing physician making plenty. So Stupid Clio for assuming.
“Depends on the time–the threshold for “need” became a lot higher fairly recently at H/Y/P/S. And if you have multiple kids, it’s a tougher decision, b/c you have to justify allocating that much $$ to one kid.”
I know the contribution expected from middle or upper middle income families decreased a lot just a few years ago. But even before that change, I thought there was still a pretty high threshold before you would fail to qualify for ANY financial aid (which was the scenario stated). I would have guessed (just a moderately informed guess) the threshold was into the high $100K range, maybe more. I would describe that as quite well off (but not wealthy).
“But even before that change, I thought there was still a pretty high threshold before you would fail to qualify for ANY financial aid (which was the scenario stated). I would have guessed (just a moderately informed guess) the threshold was into the high $100K range, maybe more. I would describe that as quite well off (but not wealthy).”
Fair enough. But a lot of “aid” in the 90s was loans, rather than grants.
I heartily agree with the aid being loans – I just got out of being under mine.
“So off topic, but if you believe the health care bill was about socialized medicine”
Cuz now your little rugrats can remain on your policy until they’re 26, juliana. You know the college years plus a few more after them of discovering themselves, travelling europe, putting off being an adult, etc.
21 was the new 18 and now 26 is the new 21! Woohoo! Lets break out that Xbox juliana!
““stupid decision” Actually no, 0 undergrad debt 0 med school debt – UofM and now a practicing physician making plenty. So Stupid Clio for assuming.”
I only made the mistake of avoiding loans in undergrad. Silly me thought that grad school would have a positive IRR. It largely doesn’t (unless someone else is paying)! Was very eye opening what a racket higher education has become lately.
But don’t worry although you did the financially smart and savvy thing your peers who threw caution to the wind and opened up the debt pipes to attend whatever school they wanted will come out fine likely too. 0bama’s gonna come out with a plan to forgive student loan debt after X years..likely just in time for the 2012 election in order to secure those votes.
Although knowing them your peers that are doing well likely won’t benefit much: true to prior bailout form so far its only those who got in over their heads who will likely be bailed out.
Gee, Bob, here’s hoping the future finds you without insurance coverage and in need of medical care. Wonder how fast you’ll drain your savings? But as long as everybody else is suffering, its all good, right?
“Cuz now your little rugrats can remain on your policy until they’re 26, juliana. You know the college years plus a few more after them of discovering themselves, travelling europe, putting off being an adult, etc.”
“a lot of “aid” in the 90s was loans, rather than grants.”
I recognize we may be well into the range of diminishing returns to this discussion, but…
1. Not clear to me this is during the 1990s. And at some point in the early 2000s, there was a big shift from loan to grant aid at H/Y/P, earlier than the more recent changes regarding family contributions.
2. Even before that shift, I’m doubtful that a student qualifying for even a limited amount of financial aid would have a package that was entirely loan-based. I could be wrong on this.
“1. Not clear to me this is during the 1990s. And at some point in the early 2000s, there was a big shift from loan to grant aid at H/Y/P, earlier than the more recent changes regarding family contributions.
2. Even before that shift, I’m doubtful that a student qualifying for even a limited amount of financial aid would have a package that was entirely loan-based. I could be wrong on this.”
1. Sure, but I was sticking with what I *know* to be true. Unsure what happened in the last 10 years.
2. Depended upon the school. Certainly conceivable, based on what I know, but you may well be right, esp. for more recent times.
3. Give the additional info re: med school and current successful practice, the time period becomes hazier and the $150k saved may relate to a longer period (ug + med, perhaps).
“Give the additional info re: med school and current successful practice, the time period becomes hazier and the $150k saved may relate to a longer period (ug + med, perhaps).”
Yeah, I didn’t really understand the med school reference but was going to let it go. Not sure how the lack of med school debt (are people getting substantial scholarships for med school) related to the undergrad issue. Also, $150K for ug plus all of medical school would have to be a long time ago.
“are people getting substantial scholarships for med school”
Only ones I’ve heard of are related to md/phd programs. Certain there is more than that, but dunno.
O.K. CCers, I hate to derail the latest battle in the education wars, but I have a real estate deal related question:
If you were looking at a place that’s listed at $500k (on market for about a month), would an offer of $425 be considered offensive?
“If you were looking at a place that’s listed at $500k (on market for about a month), would an offer of $425 be considered offensive?”
I just noticed (maybe it’s been there for a long time) that Redfin has stats on percent of sale price off list (wasn’t clear to me whether it final or initial list) data. You can see it at least by neighborhood, not sure if you can see if for certain types of properties. I think the range was mid to high single digits off list. So based on that 15% doesn’t seem crazy. Of course, the stats are based on waht sells, and there may be many sellers that are insulted by “lowball” offers and never sell.
“If you were looking at a place that’s listed at $500k (on market for about a month), would an offer of $425 be considered offensive?”
Depends on the seller.
This is one situation where what they paid for it will *defintely* give you insight.
Of course, my opinion on the “insulting offer” is; if that’s what you are willing to pay, and they’re insulted, f’em–the worst that happens to you is you get a “no”. If you’re just trying to lowball, and would be quite happy paying (say) $460 for the place, b/c that’s what you think it’s worth, then you might be shooting yourself in the foot if they don’t counter.
“Gee, Bob, here’s hoping the future finds you without insurance coverage and in need of medical care. Wonder how fast you’ll drain your savings? ”
Savings visible to debt collectors or behind drywall savings?
“But as long as everybody else is suffering, its all good, right?”
As they say context is everything–you can have a crappy year overall but still be the best fisherman on the Aral sea. 😀
Since you seem to be such a fan of this legislation I hope your kids wind up living with you throughout your adulthood. Better make sure that basement is finished, juliana.
Anonny – In your scenario, can 425k be justified with comps or some other objective data? If so, it would be reasonable and should not be offensive (though many people don’t want to believe what their house’s market value really is and will get offended by reality). If you have good comps to back up your offer, include them with the offer. If you get turned down or get sent a pathetic counteroffer, that’s indication that the sellers aren’t willing to accept the facts, in which case it’s time to move on.
Does anyone know anything about Intercultural Montessori, in Oak Park or new campus in W Loop? I’m interested in their preschool immersion Mandarin program (this is a serious question, not just to set Bob off).
really beyond the pale here but it was the mid 90’s, Princeton all in would have totaled around 150 for u grad (all in). The aid package was some grants with the majority being expected family contribution (AKA PLUS/Stafford/Private loans – anyone remember those? and cash) versus staying in a cheaper environment without all the pricey incedentals. Whereas the Illinois option was full tuition, room board, books and stipend based on academic scholarship and veteran child grant – not an option in the ivies.
By paying zero for UG and earning an income, graduating with positive net worth and getting into an amazing program (WITHOUT AN IVY EDUCATION)no loans were necessary b/c of the cash the parents and student were able to put together for Med school.
That is why people turn down Ivy League admissions and that is also why you can graduate from an “OK” school and still become successful. So, let’s move on.
“That is why people turn down Ivy League admissions and that is also why you can graduate from an “OK” school and still become successful. ”
But then their parents can’t pompously brag about their progeny attending an “ivy league” at their cocktail parties. And I suspect thats behind whats REALLY driving a lot of this Ivy talk on here.
“Actually no, 0 undergrad debt 0 med school debt – UofM and now a practicing physician making plenty”
uhhhh – even U. of M. medical school is over 50k/year – just pointing out that your reasoning is flawed – your friend is not debt free b/c he went to a state school but rather b/c he/she is a physician.
Where did you get the impression I was in favor of the legislation? Far from it (ie, my pointing out that it is another corporate handout to favored industries). You need to quit making assumptions about everybody. And, yeah, the kids love the old homestead. If they can pay the property taxes, they can have it. I’ve got other options. And the basement is fabulous!
“Since you seem to be such a fan of this legislation I hope your kids wind up living with you throughout your adulthood. Better make sure that basement is finished, juliana.”
“it was the mid 90’s, Princeton all in would have totaled around 150 for u grad (all in)”
If it was mid 1990s, and taking grants into account, the delta is probably much closer to $100K than $150K. Again, I’m not saying it was necessarily the wrong decision. In fact, given the options and the career path, probably the right decision.
“By paying zero for UG and earning an income, graduating with positive net worth and getting into an amazing program (WITHOUT AN IVY EDUCATION)no loans were necessary b/c of the cash the parents and student were able to put together for Med school.”
This is double counting a bit, you’re counting the impact of the savings versus Princeton twice. Yes, going to U of I allowed savings for med school (setting aside the issue of how much med school cost versus Princeton) but then you’re not really saving on U of I if you are spending the money on med school instead. Sorry, I know I’m not explaining this well.
DZ,
Montessori?????? really you would go that route?
we already have a spot waiting in a preschool Montessori but after that on to real school.
“Montessori?????? really you would go that route?
we already have a spot waiting in a preschool Montessori but after that on to real school.”
Interested in the mandarin immersion component more than the montessori, and just exploring options at the moment. Probably only for preschool in any event.
I guess you’re a goldbug. Not that I can’t see the appeal of their arguments, but sometimes I think I’m missing something. Nice hedge, but armageddon still seems foggy.
“Savings visible to debt collectors or behind drywall savings?” (Bob)
Thanks, DZ and anon(tfo). Another question, in case Russ or JMM or anyone else in the know cares to weight in, would you do a 5 yr ARM right now (if you had to because you’re doing a 10% down jumbo)? Do we really expect rates on fixed 30’s to jump much in the next couple of years?
“Nice hedge, but armageddon still seems foggy.”
If it’s bad enough that the USD is worthless, lead will be much more useful than gold as a store of value.
totally
“If it’s bad enough that the USD is worthless, lead will be much more useful than gold as a store of value.”
“we already have a spot waiting in a preschool Montessori but after that on to real school.”
Which one, if you’re willing to say? How did you choose? In Oak Park? It is the land of montessori.
“Which one, if you’re willing to say? How did you choose? In Oak Park? It is the land of montessori.”
i rather not say its a hook up, but its a top ones if that helps.
you are correct Oak Park has like 7 or more, its crazy out there. but sauganash has like 2 within walking distance of each other (and its a hood not a town.)
J: “Gee, Bob, here’s hoping the future finds you without insurance coverage and in need of medical care. Wonder how fast you’ll drain your savings?”
B: “Savings visible to debt collectors or behind drywall savings?”
J:”I guess you’re a goldbug. Not that I can’t see the appeal of their arguments, but sometimes I think I’m missing something. Nice hedge, but armageddon still seems foggy.”
The drywall safe is also a nice hedge against armageddon if I am getting harassed by debt collectors or owe a settlement? Nice–I’ll keep that in mind. Also I’d suspect you’ve never been versed in shielding assets or also following a train of thought?
“Do we really expect rates on fixed 30’s to jump much in the next couple of years?”
It’s never east to know for sure but how I look at it is that rates may fall and you can refi, if they go up you’re stuck. They’re low now (please don’t misinterpret this for more than face value) and if you plan on staying in the house more than 5 years there is the chance you could get royally f***ed if rates did go up.
What is the upside you see in not locking in a rate?
“Do we really expect rates on fixed 30’s to jump much in the next couple of years?”
Next year–no. Next couple of years–unsure. A lot can happen between 12-24 months from now.
The financial press is abuzz today that the Fed is going to start another round of quantitative easing soon. With 30-year rates now as low as 3.875% (with points) look for them to go lower. I could see 30-years dipping as low as 3.375% (with points) or 3.875% (no points).
Unemployment can outlast your drywall safe contents. But how could a charmer like you ever face those consequences?
I know as much as most about shielding assets. No asset class is safe.
“Also I’d suspect you’ve never been versed in shielding assets or also following a train of thought?”
“What is the upside you see in not locking in a rate?” I’d love to, but doing so (on a jumbo) requires 20% down.
“I’d love to, but doing so (on a jumbo) requires 20% down.” gotcha and I know they’re not into piggys anymore…
…and on it goes.
“Also I would caution parents to take anything clio says about education/schooling/outlook/etc with a grain of salt because what I can surmise from Clio is that while he claims to have went to “top” schools and made a bunch of coin, from all appearances his personal life is an abysmal failure.”
Wait a minute, Bob – from what I can figure, you are in your late 20s (maybe 30 or 31) yet speak as though you have a lifetime of experience. While I admire your guts, you have a LONG way to go before it is appropriate to criticize those w/ more experience (in almost EVERY area) than you.
what do you think value is on this place people? thinking of putting a bid in around 280ish
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/811-W-Aldine-Ave-60657/unit-5NF/home/13380298
eddie, the units in this building usually go for 450-550 in the past few years. Is this a short sale? If so, you may be looking at 350-400k. Even if not, 350k is a steal for this unit. I would be willing to bet that you couldn’t possibly get this unit for less than 300k- but, either way, nice find. Maybe I’ll buy it (if you don’t get it, that is….
records show that this unit sold for 422 in 2004 – so I suspect it is a short sale – if you could get it for 280 you would be lucky (actually I think you would be lucky to get it for 350).
“Wait a minute, Bob – from what I can figure, you are in your late 20s (maybe 30 or 31) yet speak as though you have a lifetime of experience.”
That’s because my age is my lifetime of experience. Duh. Oh and you boomers irreparably fucked up our economy and America and I look forward to the day most of you eat cat food.
“Oh and you boomers irreparably @@@@ up our economy and America and I look forward to the day most of you eat cat food”
boomers have an inordinate amount of wealth in this country – they aren’t going to be eating cat food any time soon. You, on the other hand, will be working day and night paying for their social security, healthcare, and all other benefits. Just thinking of that makes me a little happier – thanks Bob!!
Many boomer have wealth. Many more are practically eating cat food today. Look up the stats for yurself. They are out there.
“boomers have an inordinate amount of wealth in this country”
Don’t confuse the small segment that actually managed their money wisely during their entire career with most. Most don’t have shit other than a lifetime of fond memories of overconsumption.
“You, on the other hand, will be working day and night paying for their social security, healthcare, and all other benefits.”
I ain’t payin’ for shit. You better find a different target because you guys ain’t gettin’ blood from this stone. You, being a proclaimed HNWI, should know a bit about this. Working day & night? Haha good one. Unless I get a side job moonlighting as a beer quality control specialist/taster, that is.
Listed August 31st, delisted November 7. Probably due to few if any showings.