The Wrigleyville New Construction Penthouse: 3545 N. Wilton
If you walk down the streets nearest to Wrigley Field, you will see that the housing boom brought massive amounts of new construction to the area.
This 2-bedroom penthouse unit at 3545 N. Wilton is among that group. It was constructed in 2005.
It has cherry hardwood floors, 42 inch kitchen cabinets, and upgraded kitchen appliances including Viking, Sub-Zero and Bosch.
The unit also has a private 1200 square foot deck and a heated garage. It is not on the “L” side of the street.
David Plotkin at Dream Town Realty has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #4S: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, no square footage listed
- Sold in October 2005 for $566,000
- Originally listed in March 2009 for $630,000
- Reduced
- Currently listed at $599,000
- Assessments of $158 a month
- Taxes of $7929
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Living room: 27×15
- Kitchen: 16×10
- Bedroom #1: 16×15
- Bedroom #2: 12×11
500sf 2/2 in Wrigleyville is tough. I will be suprised if it sells in 2009. I just sold a 2/2 on Oak St. in Gold Coast for substancially less than this. This is duplex money in Lakeview.
I call $450k tops.
To get a better view of this listing, here’s the direct link to its Picture Plan: http://www.smartfloorplan.com/il/v290593
Bye bye 5.3% ($30,000) down payment on your $566,000 condo.
I wish this were $450k, heck, less than $450k, but I think we’re still a long way from that. This owner probably can’t sell for much less than $530k given that he’s most likely underwater at this point. The owner will default and this will be a foreclosure before it can sell for $450k.
Just to clarify, this is not a 500sf condo. It’s more in the neighborhood of 1500sf, beautifully finished with an interior accessed, private, amazing roof deck with panoramic views. This isn’t your typical condo. Check out the photos from the link below at Max’s response.
These owners need to start off by getting rid of all that pink. I am a female and I love it but I’m not sure if that is the first impression you want to give a straight male buyer. Given the outdoor space and proximity to Wrigley, I think this place could go for 450ish, depending on how desperate the seller gets.
“This owner probably can’t sell for much less than $530k given that he’s most likely underwater at this point. The owner will default and this will be a foreclosure before it can sell for $450k.”
This is the situation with 80%-90% of all sellers in LV/LP. For some reason they always think their place is different (better) than all the other units and that is deserves to be priced at a premium to the rest of the market. Of course, 6 price drops later their unit hasn’t sold.
At that point the sellers need to decide if they should give up on the moving idea or send the keys to the bank. To the extent that the sellers remain employed, I think the majority of them (in LV/LP, other good areas) will decide to stay in the city once they realize they don’t need to move to the suburbs the second little Johnny is born. Believe it or not, there is still a pretty big stigma associated with foreclosures (especially in the LV/LP set). So flat to slowly declining prices is what we will see over the next 5 years.
Nothing about this place but the rooftop deck screams unique or “worth 500k+”
It looks like every other new construction cheesebox. That bathroom looks freakin awful with the pink paint and cheesy LOWES $5 marble tiles… Also are those “french balcony’s” in the living room? I HATE those! They look like crap and are stupid for a top floor unit.
And is living that close to wrigley really a bonus? I know I hated living on Irving Park road when the cubs were playing and that’s probably a good 3/4 of a mile from the stadium and there were douchebags and massive traffic everywhere. I mean I guess its a bonus if you enjoy insane congestion 80+ days a year.
“And is living that close to wrigley really a bonus?”
The location is for people like me. The condo I’m unsure of: I’d imagine its not for people who would like to do other activities other than party up and down Clark St and have to hose their lawn and building free of the urine left behind from drunken Cubs fans and other W’ville revelers.
Also this close to the stadium its gonna not only congested but LOUD. And those Clark st. bars don’t shut down after baseball season ends and you have Cubby Bear to provide entertainment for the late night crowd.
mj-
“This is the situation with 80%-90% of all sellers in LV/LP. For some reason they always think their place is different (better) than all the other units and that is deserves to be priced at a premium to the rest of the market. Of course, 6 price drops later their unit hasn’t sold.”
but why are the sellers agents listing the properties at these prices. Sure the owner is emotional and unrealistic, but the RE agent is the professional and should do a market analysis and suggest a reasonable price range. If the seller is not willing to accept that resonable price then the property should not be listed. Whats the point, to accur day on market just to be withdrawn.
I wonder how much urine and vomit collects in the front yard after game days… While the LV/Wrigleyville neighborhood is great, I’d prefer to live at least 6 blocks away from the stadium and clark st. bars.
“Whats the point, to accur day on market just to be withdrawn.”
Its likely free to list and as we’ve seen on here some properties do close very close to their asking prices (see the RV condo yesterday). So even if there is a 1% chance they will find the “greater fool” if its free to list why not get the free lotto tickets.
“but why are the sellers agents listing the properties at these prices.”
Many, many of them can’t go any lower w/o coming out of pocket at closing (an OOPs Closing–haha). Altho the $630 initial price was dumb and trying to get all of the DP back, even after accepting a bit less than list.
House for sale near me. Guy bought it last summer as a two-flat; gutted the place, built a brick extension off the back–looks really nice out and in (if it’s your thing–you hi-rise lovers would prob hate it). Initially listed it for $1.45 (or something)–he got an offer in March or so that he considered insulting, said he’d live in the place before he took that little (3d hand story–might be exaggeration). Since then, he’s pulled and re-listed the place at least 2 or 3 times and it’s now offered for $1.2, which is about what I suspect that “insulting” offer was for.
“but the RE agent is the professional and should do a market analysis and suggest a reasonable price range.”
Agree 100%. But the reality is agents have nothing to lose by listing a bunch of massively over prices units. All it takes is one sucker buyer and they get a nice commission. Also, think about what would happen if an agent started telling everyone “You’re in dreamland on your pricing expectations. I won’t list your property unless you list it for 15% less than your expectations.” The agent would never get any referrals and the seller would shop around until they find an agent willing to list their property.
On top of that, there are very few agents who know what the hell they are doing and there are even fewer agents who understand basic market concepts. I think there is huge shortage of competent residential brokers and that over time, the incompetent ones will be weeded out. But in the good times, all you had to do was show up at properties and unlock doors and you got a huge commission. Now you actually need to be a professional.
For $600K you get a very cookie-cutter place with a bowling alley layout (walk down the hall for bed, bath, bath, bed). This place is so low on actual living space – would take about 15 minutes to decorate it and fill it with furniture. I’d say snore, but it’s likely too noisy in this area to get any sleep. zzzz… zzzz… zzzz…
Some dumb couple will buy this place though – he’ll love the Cubs and Guinness and she’ll love bubblegum and her yorkie.
I agree with Lauren on the pink comment. That is the first thing that came to my mind.
I know the builder of this building and I can assure you that the materials used and the quality of construction is much higher than most projects that were completed in the last few years. That said, I’m not sure they can expect to get anything close to their ask price in this market… I say it goes for $475K.
Also, this particular block of Wilton is a one-way street going north, so there is no car traffic coming directly from Addison. This helps reduce the volume of traffice because the east/west street directly south of it is also one-way going west. It is sort of an island in this area, although that is a completely relative point given it is next door to Wrigley…
Oh, the “insulting” offer.
I have submitted 8 bids in LP, 4 of which were considered “insulting.” I’ve been called a “low-baller”, “unsophisticated first-time homebuyer”, etc. But the best part is that every place I have bid on has either been delisted or sold for less than my best and final offer.
On top of that I find it extremely comical that all these sellers bought their homes as an “investment”, but then go so emotional about offers that are less than their ask price. If it really were an “investment”, they’d cut their losses and move on.
“I have submitted 8 bids in LP, 4 of which were considered “insulting.” I’ve been called a “low-baller”, “unsophisticated first-time homebuyer”,”
I was doing the same in 2008 and this one clown of a realtor said he accepted my offer… except he tried to spin it as I made a listing price offer… I said no you stupid ass, read the flippin sheet, it says 200k! I think he started to cry inside because he told his clients and they got all excited only to be let down by their moronic realtor.
“I have submitted 8 bids in LP, 4 of which were considered “insulting.” I’ve been called a “low-baller”, “unsophisticated first-time homebuyer”, etc. But the best part is that every place I have bid on has either been delisted or sold for less than my best and final offer.”
I’d be kind of pissed, not laughing, when sellers are taking less than what I offer. Must not have wanted the places.
> If it really were an “investment”, they’d cut their losses and move on.
Yes, but this “investment” was never to loose money! USA Today said housing prices could never go down!!
“I’d be kind of pissed, not laughing, when sellers are taking less than what I offer.”
If I got turned down for being “insulting” and they later reduced to below what I offered, I’d re-submit with the same $$-markdown (not percentage) I had originally offered. Just to piss them off again.
I agree with Jason on this one. Both the quality of materials and the construction on their projects are higher than that of 80% of projects here in Chicago.
While I have not been in this particular unit, I have been in a number of identical buildings. The last unit I was in (also PH level with private rooftop) both during construction and after it was finished and staged, was very impressive. It was outfitted with all the upgrades that this one has, which is quite a list. There was not a thing that I would change…which coming from me is saying a lot!
If I remember correctly, the current asking price is spot on and basically indicates the seller will not be making a cent off the sale. I think for someone looking in this area it would be a fantastic place to invest in. Personally I would not hesitate to pick this one up for my own residence if I were just arriving in town.
So regulars…there is not a lot of negativity that can be thrown out on this unit. Well, other than the pink which can be swapped out in a day.
Why is everyone so hostile? This looks like a nice, large condo in a good location to me. Yes, the paint color is not neutral by any means, but anyone knows that can be changed fairly easily and quickly for $1,000. Paint color is going to be the reason to lower an asking price???
huh??????????
“If I remember correctly, the current asking price is spot on and basically indicates the seller will not be making a cent off the sale. I think for someone looking in this area it would be a fantastic place to invest in.”
“I’d be kind of pissed, not laughing, when sellers are taking less than what I offer. Must not have wanted the places.”
The problem is that we were the first ones to show them what the true value of their home was and they took it personally. In a couple cases, we did submit offers that were lower (not drastically) than our best and final from severa months earlier. But, the sellers were emotional and did irrational things such as sell at a lower price to someone else that didn’t “insult” them.
“But, the sellers were emotional and did irrational things such as sell at a lower price to someone else that didn’t “insult” them.”
I had a class on behavioral finance and it shed some insight into this. For some reason, likely because a large part of their NW is tied up in their home and people tend to intertwine their perception of themselves with their NW here, people get emotional when it comes to their property’s valuation. There’s going to be a lot of people in therapy during this RE bust cycle.
It would be better for the market, I think, if there were a way to anonymously bid on these properties, similar to the dark pools institutional investors use with securities. That way it completely removes the emotion from the deal.
Unfortunately such a mechanism does not exist yet, to my knowledge. Maybe you could incorporate under a name that obviously isn’t you and have an agent do all the paperwork? Dunno if thats legal though.
I don’t know kids, if I were to make an offer and have it refused with ‘insults included’ just once, I think I would have learned the low ball lesson and adjusted my strategy.
IMO, I think that only in very rare cases are extremely low ball offers accepted. Those rare cases meaning the asking price was set way too high by a greedy agent/broker seeking to make up his commission and who disregarded the sellers advice, the seller was very inexperienced… perhaps a first timer, or the property has been sitting for months with zero offers.
I know when I have been rejected because of a low ball and I knew it when I made that first offer, I would try to find out a bit more ’emotional’ info about the seller through both agents. Did the house belong to deceased parents or was it their first property and they performed more involved rehab work themselves…any other issues that cause an emotional bond to the place?
Trying to figure out where that thin line is that leads to bad feelings between the two parties when placing that first offer is the hardest part of negotiating.
I know on a number of places where I was taking the absolute lowest profit, if I had a buyer come on with an outrageously low ball offer, I would generally close negotations right then and have my agent tell them I was considering another offer even if I wasn’t. I just don’t play games when it comes to this part of the deal. If I suspect the buyer doesn’t have the funds or is just being a cheap ass, game over.
But then of course, I buy properties for a different reason than most so my experience probably means nothing to buyers who are looking for their own home. Places I have wanted as my own residence I usually have paid full asking price…guess it just depends on how much you want the house.
“I think I would have learned the low ball lesson and adjusted my strategy.”
No because your ‘adjustment to strategy’ probably involves making much higher bids, which is not a way to make money. You make money in real estate at the time of purchase, as others have said here before.
Best to lowball 10 properties and get one accepted than to overpay for one property and not potentially insult a seller.
“I were to make an offer and have it refused with ‘insults included’ just once, I think I would have learned the low ball lesson and adjusted my strategy.”
Oh, make no mistake, my “strategy” would all be about being a vindictive prick. Not with any hope of getting them to sell–which as MJ notes, is pretty much a pipe dream if they react with vitriole to a “low-ball” initial offer. I’d just want to remind them that they passed up more money previously. Jerky thing to do, sure, but they took the first swing.
“huh??????????”
Meaning this place was priced in ’05, presumably new, @ $566k now it is @599 down from 630. Follow?
Now it was around March-April of this year when I visited a few of the buildings/units that are identical to this one. The fully upgraded PH unit that I was interested in was priced higher than the ‘before reduction’ price of this unit. The location of the new building is not as well regarded as this location…so in my mind (lol right) it is a great price and the seller is not making any profit off the sale, after expenses.
Although not in the same hood as this, is this location not good enough to list at this still very reasonable for what you get price? As stated above, there is no reason to question either the materials used or the construction, so that would silence the accusations of inferior products/labor.
Still a ‘beyond fair price’ and the seller probably will not make a profit.
no bob, learn more info then bid accordingly…of course AFTER you have already insulted the seller, in which case you are not going to get the place anyway. then you walk away from it, hopefully lesson learned. i mean, why present yourself as a cheap ass when you know better than to do so? all the while renting instead of doing the ‘forced savings’ process of owning.
I am now ready for the wrath of CC posters to fall upon my head.
as much as i like your posts anon, is it really worth your time to play that game with the buyer who owns a place you really no longer want? Isn’t the fact they made a wrong decision the first time out enough for you? LOL great game playing I must admit…
wleo,
A strategy I might try would be to insult them first with an absurdly low offer, but then come back later with a significantly higher offer but still one well below ask.
That way it might serve to anchor them to the lower number, and seem like negotiating in ‘splitting the difference’.
Of course the second offer would only be after it has languished on the market for some time and this strategy only works if you are treating your home as a dispassioned investment.
just so you are out of that low ball strategy camp that is all i am asking for.
as i just said, low ball offers just might work if you due your homework and realize there have been no offers on a place that has been sitting empty for more than a few months. otherwise you risk being at the end of my game…over.
Don’t waste your time with absurdly low offers. There are a few better priced properties out there so bid on them instead. Or put your money under your mattress and try searching redfin again in the spring, when I guarantee prices will be even lower than they are now.
The problem is that anyone who bought at the peak with less than 5% down will think every offer is a “lowball” when it is in fact a fair offer. They key is to find someone that bought pre 2002 and put 20% down. They are a lot more receptive to “lowball” or market offers. Unfortunately, 90% of sellers bought at the peak with little or no money down.
To add to MJ’s comment, and as Bob has pointed out over 1000 times in the last month, most sellers today are either underwater, or close to it because they bought their place with little or no down payment. That said, what room do you think they possibly have to accept a “low-ball” offer?!
My advice is do your homework on the owner first if you can, then make and offer that is lower than what you can best estimate they still owe on the property, if they have only owned it for less than 4 years. You’ll have the best chance of buying the place. If you go in any lower, given these scenarios, you’ll look like an ass and won’t be taken seriously.
As long as these properties are not in foreclosure or have not been approved as a short-sale, then most sellers have very little room to negotiate and it is a waste of everyone’s time… IMHO.
whats a lowball offer? each person could come with a different definition, 10 percent off list, 40% off of ’05 prices. Take your pick, it isn’t low ball if the seller considers it, and they can’t consider it if you don’t offer it. 🙂 And if buyers offer low then sellers will realize they need to get serious if they want to move.
Jason R… do you realize what you are saying?
Bids should be determined on the sellers liability??? What if this drops another 20%?
I’ll agree he/she may not be able to move, but that’s their problem. And they will never get out then.
I interpreted him as saying basically what HD said: as in do your homework on the owner and don’t waste your time on these underwater situations as they likely can’t bring money to the table and its a giant waste of everyone’s time, which makes sense.
Although I disagree with him that you’d look like an ass for offering less than the owner owes. Just that chances are a deal won’t get done. And Jason R we’re not interested in owning the place at any cost this is on the topic of getting a deal on a place.
yeah but you have no idea the persons financing or why they might need to move. I do agree completely with your anchoring comment also. Who cares if they tell you to piss off. Half of it is all cookie cutter anyway. Lot’s of nice stuff to buy the following day.
As the bubble grew people were all about getting homes at any cost.
Is the mortgage 50% of your household income? Check!
Is the house one of the most expensive for sale in the neighborhood? Check!
Is your mortgage a jumbo interest only? Check!
Was there (allegedly) multiple bids? Check!
Is it in an up and coming but still gentrifying area? Check!
Is it priced as if it were in Lakeview? Check!
Did your mortgage company go out of business between April and November 2008? Check!
Do you plan on living there only 3-5 years? Check!
Will one or more of your mortgages reset/recast between 2009-2012? Check!
Did your lender refuse a tax/insurance escrow because with it your DTI ratio was too high? Check!
Were all your friends buying at any cost? Check!
Did you feel like a loser if you were a dirty smelly scumbag renter? Check!
Were you jealous of all your peers who owned? Check!
Are you underwater today? Check!
“I would generally close negotations right then and have my agent tell them I was considering another offer even if I wasn’t.”
“I just don’t play games when it comes to this part of the deal.”
Interesting juxtaposition of sentences there, don’t you think?
Ze, it takes about 3 seconds loading time to pull up a recorded mortgage document in the basement of the county building. More often than not the promissory note is also recorded as the last few pages of the mortgage, and even more so if it is some form of exotic financing (such as IO, ARM, NEG AM, etc). Any sophisticated buyer looking to lowball overpriced bubble sellers better spend an hour or two researching. Better yet, call up a buddy at a title company and ask her, she can access Chicago Title’s database in seconds for free.
Still not there with you HD.. I have done the I/O before, and under your premise I would have been unable to move when really I HAD to get out and would have been giggling while eating a loss to do so.
You can always raise your bid and it’s almost no energy to make one. What waste of time? You already saw the place… just drop off the 4 pager, sign it, send it.
IO for you Ze is not so bad. IO for other people who used it as an affordability product contributed to being underwater. Buyers cannot rely on appreciation alone to give them equity. They should be required to repay some principle no matter how meager those initial principal payments are.
classic post.
I read an article on Dr. HB recently that showed there are very few Alt-A loans in IL compared to the “sand states”. Yeah IL was 6th, but it looked insignificant compared CA, FL & NY.
http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/alt-a-loans-active-in-state.png
If Option ARMs are distributed anything like Alt-As and his data is right, IL might _not be at risk_ like the sand states. The implosion could continue to be regional to FL & CA as 70k Alt-As doesn’t seem a lot for a state of this size.
Not saying things look great just that there appears to be much less creative financing done here than on the left coast, which makes sense given those valuations.
“Interesting juxtaposition of sentences there, don’t you think?”
While rehabbing may be his specialty consistency has never been. 😛
Bob, alt-a is just a piece of the IL bomb. I think that overall debt levels and leverage will be the culprit leading to default. The prime areas in chicago still have another 20% to fall.
Maybe but the lack of a lot of exotic mortgages (other than low down payments) means that the declines here will take longer. I see employment (or lack thereof) as being the main driver instead of ARMs recasting.
Ze and Crew, what I was trying to put out there is that simply throwing out an insanely low offer to someone because that seems to be the norm these days, doesn’t make any sense…
From the sellers position (in this current market) most are prepared to recieve extremely low offers and thus shrug their shoulders and continue to hold out. They are not looking at it as useful information that the market won’t sustain their asking price. If more people made informed offers (not necessarily the price of what the seller owes, perhaps something a little less)eventually the seller will either find a way to make it happen if they are underwater or realize that it can’t happen sooner and pull the property off the market. If that happens then this current flood of properties (which are not 100% “I have to get out of my place now”) might start to dry up, not completely, but it would start to shift in the right direction.
Bob, I’m not saying the buyer should not offer less than what the owner owes, I’m saying that you look like an ass when you offer $50K lower than what the buyer owes. If they are so underwater that they need to sell, where are they going to get the $50K do make they deal happen. Perhaps the buyer should offer something a little more attainable, say $10K or $15K? Something that the seller can get to if they really are in a pinch and have to move.
Just my two cents…
I meant to say $50K less than what the seller owes… need more coffee.
The first offer is usually the best offer.
“I see employment (or lack thereof) as being the main driver instead of ARMs recasting.”
I’ve been saying variations of that forever. Glad to see you come around.
I disagree that employment is/will be the main driver. Employment is the catalyst. High debt to income ratios (housing, credit cards, student loans, car loans, etc) are the problem because it is not sustainable. Employment accelerates default; it’s one of the straws that breaks the camel’s back, so to speak.
Ze,
I AM NOT playing games…I put a stop to the game playing by closing the chance of them placing another ridiculous bid. I am saying exactly what Jason is saying, bid low and you look like an ass…and I have zero tolerance for asses. Makes me wonder why I still post here???
Surprising how this statement is not understood by the RE genuises that populate this site. There is not even the slighest chance of not understanding what I am saying and what I do when I receive a low ball offer. Nuts
“I would generally close negotations right then and have my agent tell them I was considering another offer even if I wasn’t.”
“I just don’t play games when it comes to this part of the deal.”
Interesting juxtaposition of sentences there, don’t you think?
“High debt to income ratios (housing, credit cards, student loans, car loans, etc) are the problem because it is not sustainable.”
True but our government is doing everything it can to keep the cards from falling down with the ZIRP policy. As the cost of debt approaches zero the amount one can borrow and reasonably service goes way up, approaching principal only over x years with a ZIRP policy. When rates finally start to rise the debt will be an issue.
Also HD other countries have much higher ratios of household debt as a % of disposable income. Denmark is at like 260% and Netherlands is much higher than the US too.
I think the problem with this house is location – too close to Wrigley. Anyone who wants/can afford a nice 1,500 sf condo at more than 500k won’t want the bother, traffic and noise of Cubs games 81 days a year.
I realize that Wilton is a one-way street going north, but a LOT of people walk to and from Wrigley and they don’t care about one-way streets. There will still be cars during the day games looking for parking, and there will be lots of trash left after each game. If someone can afford to pay close to half a million dollars, there are much better neighborhoods.
looks like this place was taken off the market in february 2010.