Think There’s No New Construction in Chicago? Think Again: 3125 N. Seminary in Lakeview
The nationwide decline in new home sales to record lows in July isn’t stopping some developers in Chicago from trying to sell new construction properties such as this new single family home at 3125 N. Seminary in Lakeview.
It just came on the market in July.
Built on a 25×125 lot, it appears that the old 2-flat formerly on the property was just sold in May 2010 in “as-is” condition.
The 5-bedroom house has 3 of the bedrooms on the second level and 2 in the basement.
The kitchen has all the bells and whistles of new luxury construction including Subzero, Wolf and Bosch appliances.
There is also a heated 2-car garage.
Is there still demand for “new” at this price level?
Patrick Devereaux at Coldwell Banker has the listing. See the pictures here (though the listing says the interior pics are of another property done by the same developer.)
3125 N. Seminary: 5 bedrooms, 3.5 baths, 2 car garage
- 2-flat listed “as-is” in October 2009 for $474,900
- Reduced
- Sold in May 2010 for $327,000
- New single family home listed in July 2010 for $1.295 million
- Currently still listed at $1.295 million
- Taxes are “new”
- Central Air
- Bedroom #1: 18×14
- Bedroom #2: 18×12
- Bedroom #3: 12×10
- Bedroom #4: 14×13 (lower level)
- Bedroom #5: 14×10 (lower level)
Nice house, bad school district.
Nice at about 800K tops. It is not high-end despite the “bells and whistles” statement. The finishes are too standard and basement bedrooms are dreary. Basically an expensive 3 bedroom not worth the asking price.
Love the outdoor fireplace. Very cool. Is that legal and or does that meet codes in Chicago?
$1.3MM? LOL. Looks like these builders came out of a cave where they spent the past four years.
Looks nice but can’t really tell what the finishes will actually be: “Interior photos of builder’s previous project.” Would love an outdoor fireplace.
How does a 2d bedroom nearly 2x the 3d bedroom work if you have 2 kids? I guess it’s just a “life is unfair” lesson, but who pays $1.3mm for help in making a statement to your kids that’s easy enough to get for free.
Re the school (Agassiz), I noticed the 3rd and 4th graders seemed to be doing better on ISAT testing in recent years. Also noticed that the socioeconomic composition had not shifted dramatically. Led me to looking at overall ISAT meet/exceed scores which seem to have gone way up for CPS as a whole in the last decade. I find it hard to believe it’s true improvement, even from teaching to the test etc. Have they been screwing with the test?
“Is [an outdoor fireplace] legal and or does that meet codes in Chicago?”
In general, use, legal. Can’t say as to their particular execution.
Firebox looks quite shallow in teh pic.
It’s a nice looking place for sure (I especially like the attention to all the trim/mouldings).
I’m not a greenie by any stretch of the imagination, but heated garages (unless it’s actively used and worked in) really strike me as incredibly wasteful. Keeping an entirely (likely marginally insulated) room heated just so you’re not cold between when you start your car and the 2 minutes it takes your heated seats (in this price bracket, a given) to get your tushie warm? Wasteful!
“but who pays $1.3mm for help in making a statement to your kids that’s easy enough to get for free.”
Remember anon its 2006 pricing and everyone is filthy rich so that smaller bedroom is actually the maid’s room.
If you really drill down into the details from yesterday’s new home sales numbers you find a stat that bodes very poorly for this house specifically and for housing overall.
Take a gander how many newly built homes priced above $750K sold in July?
None, zero, zip, goose egg.
To be clear, that’s in July in the ENTIRE United States of America. Particularly troubling is that buyers in this segment aren’t tax credit buyers, so the drop is being driven by something else. It’s also worth noting that new homes priced between 500-750K were right around 1,000 units for the second month running. That ain’t good.
Obviously this house isn’t your typical new construction home given its location, but I gotta agree with Bob. The developers just came out of a cave.
“How does a 2d bedroom nearly 2x the 3d bedroom work if you have 2 kids?”
Perhaps, but ok and probably preferred if you have 1 (I’d still give little DZ the small room) or 3.
“Take a gander how many newly built homes priced above $750K sold in July?
None, zero, zip, goose egg.
To be clear, that’s in July in the ENTIRE United States of America. ”
I’m not even sure what stats these are but that can’t possibly be correct, unless there’s a whole bunch of (unspecified) conditions applied to that statement.
Most heated garages are rarely heated to 70 degrees. It is mainly to get it above freezing and help the car to defrost. Something nice after a really cold drive. YOu can easily insulate a garage to high standards. The windows are typically small and the big doors have decent R values. The obvious strike is that you have to fully open a 160 sq. ft. window to let your car out. That burns any efficiency.
Firebox looks quite shallow in teh pic
I was thinking that and that the stack seems to be about railing level for the roof deck over the garage. Odd!
“Remember anon its 2006 pricing and everyone is filthy rich so that smaller bedroom is actually the maid’s room.”
So the two kids have to share a room? Or one of them sleeps in the basement while the maid/nanny gets a room upstairs? That’s even more ridiculous!
The master bathroom is basically as big as the 3d BR upstairs. It’s just a horrible layout for a family.
These builders can’t just give it away.
And the new homes stat is adjusted which means that the actual number of homes sold is quite low.
“I’m not even sure what stats these are but that can’t possibly be correct, unless there’s a whole bunch of (unspecified) conditions applied to that statement.”
Well, it’s the monthly new home sales report released by the Department of Commerce yesterday (Aug 25th) and widely used by the financial markets to gauge housing demand. The DoC records a sale when the contract is signed so it’s a relatively leading indicator and may well slightly overstate the number of closings. DoC considers a new “home” a new construction single family home, just like the one we’re looking at here.
“Well, it’s the monthly new home sales report released by the Department of Commerce yesterday (Aug 25th) and widely used by the financial markets to gauge housing demand. The DoC records a sale when the contract is signed so it’s a relatively leading indicator and may well slightly overstate the number of closings. DoC considers a new “home” a new construction single family home, just like the one we’re looking at here.”
Ok, I just went to look it up. Is it the report at the link below? I don’t see zero. I see less than 500. Am I missing something?
http://www.census.gov/const/newressales.pdf
They’ll be lucky to get mid 800s for this.
“Perhaps, but ok and probably preferred if you have 1 (I’d still give little DZ the small room) or 3.”
Sure, and especially if 2 are same sex twins. But what if the oldest and youngest are the same sex, and there’s 6+ years b/t them? That’s not a *genuine* problem, as it’s worked out reasonably well for tens of millenia, but not something I think of as coming with a $1.3mm price tag.
“I’m not even sure what stats these are but that can’t possibly be correct, unless there’s a whole bunch of (unspecified) conditions applied to that statement.”
Occam was a friend of mine. And when you *actually* read the chart attached to the press release, it shows that the number is under 500, but also 1% (meaning b/t .51% and 1.49%) of total sales. Total sales were 25,000 (meaning between 24,500 and 25,499)–thus somewhere b/t 125 and 380 $750k+ *new* homes were sold in July.
There’s another new place that I don’t think is on the MLS yet on the north side of Barry, just east of Lakewood. I think this is still Burley, while 1327 Barry (which isn’t new), is not.
Regarding Agassiz, I don’t understand why it isn’t better considering the neighborhood makeup and the other good or improving schools in this area.
DZ,
The new home sales report is in thousands of homes – zero indicates below 500, not actually 0.
The
“And the new homes stat is adjusted which means that the actual number of homes sold is quite low.”
Um, the July adjustment is *downward* as more homes sell in the summer than in the winter. New home sales were 25,000(+/-), which would be 300,000/yr, rather than the 276k seasonally adjusted.
Still a terrible low number.
DZ, you’re right “(Z)”in DoC speak means less that 500 and you were right to call me out.
Looking at the raw numbers on my Bloomberg it looks like I have to swallow my words. 63 new homes as defined by the DoC were sold for more than $750K in July. Still an issue for developers.
I’d love to know exactly what is cost to build the house, just like you want to know what a dealer’s cost of a new car is, as I suspect there’s a lot of room to negotiate…
“Looking at the raw numbers on my Bloomberg it looks like I have to swallow my words. 63 new homes as defined by the DoC were sold for more than $750K in July. ”
That’s inconsistent with the DoC report, which would then need to show a (Z) for the percentage, too. 63 is only ~.25%, which couldn’t be rounded up to the 1% shown. But that’d be most easily written up to bad editing by the DoC.
“I’d love to know exactly what is cost to build the house”
We’ve had a builder on here before who pegged a typical build cost–to the developer operating his own crew–at ~$125 psf. This place is ~3800 (gross) sf, which gives $475k as the rough number. With the land cost, they’d have about $800k into it, before carrying costs. Which, with the asking price, seems like the ballpark of return you’d ask for out of the gate, but on the high side–maybe the costs are a little higher and the build was more like $150 psf, or $570k.
“Looking at the raw numbers on my Bloomberg it looks like I have to swallow my words. 63 new homes as defined by the DoC were sold for more than $750K in July. Still an issue for developers.”
I definitely didn’t mean to sound confrontational. The stat just seemed implausible on its face. Although 63 is itself awfully low. Interesting that the actual number is available. I looked very quickly on the website and did not see the number in the spreadsheet or other data on that main page.
“Nice house, bad school district”
I am not sure if the school district is a top priority for people looking at houses in the city. Seriously, if education is the top priority then these people would send their kids to private schools or move to the suburbs.
Obama will try to bail out the builders or promise to do so in time for his 2012 re-election campaign to buy even more votes.
Funny, I was looking to buy the old 2-flat on this lot and do the same thing (tear down but build for myself). This builder moved fast….
When I checked out the old place (Feb) they already had a soft offer and I didn’t want to get into a bidding war. I figured ~$500k-$600k in construction costs and to me and my wife, ~$1MM was too much for this exact location and street. Granted, there still was snow on the ground but it did not have the feel we were looking for at that price.
“We’ve had a builder on here before who pegged a typical build cost–to the developer operating his own crew–at ~$125 psf.”
I don’t believe this is true – especially in the CTIY. A more realistic number is 175-250/sq foot.
“I don’t believe this is true – especially in the CTIY. A more realistic number is 175-250/sq foot.”
No, it’s not. Maybe that’s what people quote to you when you pull up in your Lambo, but that’s just cuz they see a whale.
In any case, I was talking about (1) the sort of nice, but not luxe finishes in this place, and (2) the actual cost to a developer running his own building crew (and expecting all of his profit on the sell, rather than on the GC mark-up), not the retail cost for someone employing a contractor, which is *obviously* higher and might well be ~$175 psf.
“In any case, I was talking about (1) the sort of nice, but not luxe finishes in this place, and (2) the actual cost to a developer running his own building crew (and expecting all of his profit on the sell, rather than on the GC mark-up), not the retail cost for someone employing a contractor, which is *obviously* higher and might well be ~$175 psf.
That is what I was talking about – you are right, the mark up and prices that are quoted to me (or another non-builder buyer) are actually 225-350/sq foot – but the builder’s cost IN THE CITY absolutely is much closer to 175+ than 125/sq ft.
“I am not sure if the school district is a top priority for people looking at houses in the city. Seriously, if education is the top priority then these people would send their kids to private schools or move to the suburbs.”
It might not be THE top priority, but to think that people looking at SFH in the city (a vast majority of which have kids, one would assume) aren’t paying attention to the school district is foolish. Hell, it seems like 90% of properties posted on this site will, at some point, divulge into talking about CPS.
“It might not be THE top priority, but to think that people looking at SFH in the city (a vast majority of which have kids, one would assume) aren’t paying attention to the school district is foolish.”
I agree – but anyone who has 750k+ to spend on a house almost certainly are sending their kids to private school – there is NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS. Those that have that much money to spend and send their kids to CPS do NOT have education as their top priority – period.
“It might not be THE top priority, but to think that people looking at SFH in the city (a vast majority of which have kids, one would assume) aren’t paying attention to the school district is foolish.”
IF indeed this property is a 1.3MM property (likely not) then I think CPS issues are minimized at this pricepoint. At 1.3MM you’re out of poseur wealth territory, for the most part. You would need a 130k downpayment during the bubble, or 260k these days and the income and assets to back up the mortgage.
Its no longer 600k territory where you have fundamentally middle class people stretching their budgets to keep up with the jones. Its definitely upper class.
800k territory somewhere in between..
“Hell, it seems like 90% of properties posted on this site will, at some point, divulge into talking about CPS.”
You are right – and 90% of the people “talking about CPS” on this site can’t afford the places posted on this site – so these are NOT the buyers of these properties.
“anyone who has 750k+ to spend on a house almost certainly are sending their kids to private school – there is NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS”
not true! I know of a number of people, myself included, who will buy or has bought a house in this price range and will send the kids to cps (magnet or good neighborhood school)
“I agree – but anyone who has 750k+ to spend on a house almost certainly are sending their kids to private school – there is NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS. Those that have that much money to spend and send their kids to CPS do NOT have education as their top priority – period.”
You continually assume that everyone is just made of money and, even at the higher end of incomes, no budgetary sacrifices will ever have to be made. A number of CPS schools are just as good (minus the prestige thing) as private schools and don’t cost the $25k/year or whatever it is to send a child to Latin or Parker.
Yes, $750k is a lot for a house, and anyone buying it (at least now that loans are harder to come by) is likely quite well off financially. No, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the buyer can (or will) foot a lot more money for private school.
I don’t know why I said $750k, sorry.
“prices that are quoted to me (or another non-builder buyer) are actually 225-350/sq foot”
If you’re trying to keep up with the Pritzkers. You are–simply put–wrong. This guy does not have $1mm+ into this property (building costs + land acquisition). Guaranteed.
“not true! I know of a number of people, myself included, who will buy or has bought a house in this price range and will send the kids to cps (magnet or good neighborhood school)”
I know dozens. And not “will send”, but rather “do send”.
“I don’t know why I said $750k, sorry.”
b/c that’s what clio used as the threshold and it’s the dominate number in this thread, even tho it’s under 60% of the price of this house.
$25k x 2 kids = enough money to service a $800k mortgage.
“not true! I know of a number of people, myself included, who will buy or has bought a house in this price range and will send the kids to cps (magnet or good neighborhood school”
That’s great! I am happy to hear that. However, you DO realize that there are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better choices for schools/school districts in this price range in the suburbs. My point was that education to these people is obviously NOT a top priority (which is fine – top schools may not always produce great results) but DO NOT tell me that school quality is a priorty for these folk.
“However, you DO realize that there are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better choices for schools/school districts in this price range in the suburbs”
sure, maybe in some, but then I’d have to live in the suburbs and pay suburban taxes. The taxes aren’t as bad as actually having to live there
“education to these people is obviously NOT a top priority (which is fine – top schools may not always produce great results) but DO NOT tell me that school quality is a priorty for these folk.”
You do recognize the fallacy in your argument that you identified here, don’t you?
“I am not sure if the school district is a top priority for people looking at houses in the city.”
Nope. Agassiz was my local school when I was a kid, was unquestionably MUCH worse than it is now, and didn’t faze my parents one bit to realize they’d have to go private.
Wife and I made the decision when we bought – so while it also possible the stupid got genetically passed to me on this issue, my wife’s buy-in would suggest otherwise.
We actually were talking about it last night, and here’s my take on the issue – yes, it would obviously be great to have a good neighborhood school to default to. But if you buy a house based on the school you are quite literally putting all of your eggs in one basket. What if your kid’s teacher isn’t a good fit? What if you just get sick of the CPS red tape? It’s a lot easier IMO to get your kid to a different school while staying put than v.v.
“I agree – but anyone who has 750k+ to spend on a house almost certainly are sending their kids to private school – there is NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS.”
As other’s have pointed out, you continue to be completely incorrect on this point.
Assume you just don’t have kids. In which case, sure, that $1m home in Mayer or Agassiz is a nice place.
Sending 2 to private school will almost certainly cost more than the mortgage on this place.
There is NO DOUBT most people would balk at paying an amount equal to their mortgage, in education. Even at this price point.
And that’s without even going into the correlation between “good” neighborhoods (in terms of demographics, safety) and “good” schools.
“We actually were talking about it last night, and here’s my take on the issue – yes, it would obviously be great to have a good neighborhood school to default to. But if you buy a house based on the school you are quite literally putting all of your eggs in one basket.”
Depends on how much (if any) of a premium you pay and sacrifice in terms of preferred neighborhood. If you’re not paying too much of a premium (which you may recoup) and you like the neighborhood anyway, then why not take the good school district.
But if you like a neighborhood without a good school, as we do, there’s certainly a tradeoff. My wife and I discuss this all the time. With just one kid, the cost of private school is a little less insane.
But, Skeptic, safe to say your folks didn’t pay the equvalent of $750k + at the time, right? They got a lower price, and that was part of why you went private.
Full disclosure: the SquareD’s moved to the bigger, less expensive home in the bad school disctrict, so we could send kids to private school, for exactly the reasons you mention. So I get that.
What I don’t get is paying big home prices AND private school. A la what we see in the Mayer or Agassiz districts.
The same house can’t cost the same amount, regardless of whether it’s in Burley or Agassiz. The value of a decent “public option” is too real, too large.
“The same house can’t cost the same amount, regardless of whether it’s in Burley or Agassiz”
But they did/do, at least in some pairs. Bucktown has been a good example, compared to some parts of LP, LV, NC.
Question, is it legal to build a 3 story 100% above grade house? or is that sort of thing frowned upon due to some sort of wierd zoning?
I mean I always wondered why people would voluntarily have a basement if it isn’t really needed. Why expose yourself to that additional risk of flood? I mean couldn’t you save a lot of money by not building below grade and say doing a few 10’+ deep cassons instead?
“on this site can’t afford the places posted on this site ”
There are properties of many valuations on this site, even going down to 250k. A much fairer statement would be 90% of the people on this site who talk about CPS can’t afford a SFH in a neighborhood with favorable demographics & private school.
“They got a lower price, and that was part of why you went private.”
They weren’t from Chicago originally, and I actually doubt they thought about it much. In the early 70s I’m not sure public schools even in nicer neighborhoods were necessarily much better than places like Agassiz.
“What I don’t get is paying big home prices AND private school. A la what we see in the Mayer or Agassiz districts.”
sure, but yet, people have been doing it for decades. the area around Agassiz was gentrifying by the mid-80s, and was pretty much fully gentrified by the early 90s. clearly the school didn’t make much of a difference to a lot of people, and keep in mind many of these folks were doing full gut rehabs on graystones and victorians.
I’m just saying that I think it’s a fair point that a “good” school (again, very relative/subjective when talking about CPS) isn’t necessarily even close to the top of people’s list, even when they know they want kids.
I think the kind of person/family who would buy this has so much money they simply don’t care about the added expense of the school – what remains to be seen is how many of these folks are still out there, and if this passes the threshold to appeal to them.
“But they did/do, at least in some pairs. Bucktown has been a good example, compared to some parts of LP, LV, NC.”
We’ve had a different variant of this discussion in the past, but you don’t think Bell/Blaine/Burley (I’m just throwing Burley in there just to have a 3rd name, I never look at houses there and don’t really know) have a premium over Bucktown? It is hard to comp with all the short lots and renovated cottages in Bucktown.
I think you’d have one hell of a hard time really trying to put a value on a school district – you’d have to (making “all else equal”) find a way to account for different public trans and a multitude of differing things that people value in a neighborhood. A farmer’s market might be a really big selling point to one person, and zero to another.
I think just the perception adds value though, for better and for worse. Like I said, just imagine family A spends an arm and a leg to get into a certain district, and then their kid just isn’t happy at the local school. Kids aren’t machines, and a lot of different factors come into play regarding how much they enjoy and get out of school.
“However, you DO realize that there are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better choices for schools/school districts in this price range in the suburbs.”
Sure there are, but you can’t just say that without all the other factors that play into city vs. suburbs. Heck, you can find a reasonable enough place in Naperville that will send your child to Highlands (#9 elementary school according to Sun Times), then Kennedy (#10 elementary school) and then Naperville North (#12 HS) for just about any income imagineable.
Sorry, Kennedy is #10 Jr High.
“I think just the perception adds value though, for better and for worse.”
I completely agree – no matter how true or important it is, it DOES add/subtract value!
That’s backwards thinking; it’s time to look forward. People also thought they wanted large SUV’s and huge houses in the far out suburbs. Now they realize that it’s a hell of a commute and a hell of a gas bill every month, and it’s not nearly as desirable.
It will soon be, if it isn’t already, in vogue to buy in a good school district or at least give careful consideration to it. Most people now know that when they buy today they’re buying for the long term. The move in 3-5 year thing didn’t work out well for a lot of people. I know a guy that just bought and he says he’ll be there 20 years. He’s only 32 now. Given that he smokes a pack and a half a day, he may die in the house in the next 20 years.
“I’m just saying that I think it’s a fair point that a “good” school (again, very relative/subjective when talking about CPS) isn’t necessarily even close to the top of people’s list, even when they know they want kids.
I think the kind of person/family who would buy this has so much money they simply don’t care about the added expense of the school – what remains to be seen is how many of these folks are still out there, and if this passes the threshold to appeal to them.”
“My point was that education to these people is obviously NOT a top priority (which is fine – top schools may not always produce great results) but DO NOT tell me that school quality is a priorty for these folk.”
I’d rather have a well rounded city kid who knows his/her way around an urban env than a suburban softie. Moved to the burbs when I was in HS will never subject my kid to that lifestyle.
“I’d rather have a well rounded city kid who knows his/her way around an urban env than a suburban softie.”
I agree – but the real world doesn’t take this into account when hiring…… they look at education/degrees/schools, etc.
There’s something to be said about raising a kid on the north shore and sending them to a north shore high school. FOr those kids the world always seemed like their oyster. They were traveling around the world, making contacts with wealthy families, going to the best colleges, they had that north shore “i’m the $hit” attitude that was desirable…..maybe I’m just projecting that upon them but Ferris could have only come from the North Shore if you know what I mean.
“#roscoevillager on August 26th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
“My point was that education to these people is obviously NOT a top priority (which is fine – top schools may not always produce great results) but DO NOT tell me that school quality is a priorty for these folk.”
I’d rather have a well rounded city kid who knows his/her way around an urban env than a suburban softie. Moved to the burbs when I was in HS will never subject my kid to that lifestyle.”
“But they did/do, at least in some pairs. Bucktown has been a good example, compared to some parts of LP, LV, NC.”
Doesn’t Drummond Montessori Magnet throw a bit of a wrench into that? Of course that’s also a matter of a school upgrading to match the gentrification of the neighborhood. . .
But I think the better analogy is ELP/LP Elem and Alcott v. WLP/Mayer.
Your use of “did/do” is more what I’m after, a la HD’s post. . . I don’t think people can ignore this as much as they did for a while. Kind of like for a few years there people didnt think they had to live in a place for 7 years to break even, but now are getting back to those fundamentals.
Oh, and, Sonies, it’s completely a matter of where you are and what your property is zoned (also often has to do with the other buildings on your street). We are actually looking at building “up” and for us it’s no problem. . . well, except for the massive $$$.
HD you seem to think of Americana as some sort of aristocracy and it wreaks of class envy. I will caution you: if you don’t shape up soon your kids will likely inherit your “other side of the tracks” paradigm and it will haunt them.
I, like most people, didn’t come from wealth either, but to claim these kids had some sort of privilege merely because their parents had money reminds me of the propaganda in sociology classes of “white privilege”.
Sure you aren’t confusing their “i’m the $hit” attitude you’re picking with with a general teenage/young adult attitude and not specifically because they’re from the NS?
If you believe America to be some sort of aristocracy, wealth based or otherwise, I’d recommend you move to the BoWash corridor where there are a lot more people that think like that. One of the reasons I consider that entire area to be a cesspool. Here in the midwest I don’t sense it, however.
“That’s backwards thinking; it’s time to look forward.”
On a societal level, sure. But all real estate, like politics, is local.
And there are loads of people with cash who aren’t going to have kids, whose kids have grown up, etc.
Keep in mind that this “huge” SFH would be a massive downsizing for many people in the burbs- so when you say loads of people don’t want that mcmansion in the sticks after a few years due to the remote aspect/expenses that come with that, maybe this is what they go for.
“I, like most people, didn’t come from wealth either, but to claim these kids had some sort of privilege merely because their parents had money reminds me of the propaganda in sociology classes of “white privilege”.”
…if you don’t think kids go to ivy league schools as much for the connections as the education I have a bridge to sell you.
I’m re-reading the Great Gatsby just for the heck of it, and it rings as true today as it always has.
“I, like most people, didn’t come from wealth either, but to claim these kids had some sort of privilege merely because their parents had money reminds me of the propaganda in sociology classes of “white privilege”
You are right, Bob. I discuss all of the problems of wealth and privilege in my thesis “Poor little rich kid”. Welath truly can be an EXTREMELY negative factor when growing up. It is a problem that hasn’t been discussed much in public, but needs more exposure.
“Welath truly can be an EXTREMELY negative factor when growing up.”
sure hasn’t stopped you from being any less douchey thats for sure
As a family who can afford a SFH home in the million dollar range and does already own one in the city, education is a priority for us. And, 100 percent agree with homedelete it is already ‘in vogue’ to buy in a good school district. I don’t know one family who is in the market right now in the city that does not have the school as their number one priority. So yes, there are PLENTY of people who send their kids to neighborhood schools and are more than satisfied. And I too would much rather have a well rounded city kid.
“And I too would much rather have a well rounded city kid.”
Let’s hear back when your kids apply to college – you may have a different opinion then.
“Let’s hear back when your kids apply to college – you may have a different opinion then.”
I was accepted at every school I applied to, including Washington University in St. Louis. Did you have a point?
It’s there Bob, it is, whether you want to admit it or not.
And to them Bob, we’re all from the other side of the tracks so it doesn’t really matter whether or not my children inherit an attitude or not.
It’s the same as JMM’s snobbish and arrogant attitude; which comes off so arrogant even though he’s basically wrong in 90% of his posts. just totally wrong and ignant and he doesn’t even know it yet he keeps shooting his mouth off.
Some neighborhoods are just filled with arrogant buffoons like that; and unfortunately, they control a lot of the money in this country and until you can find a way to wrestle the money from their cold dead hands it’s going to stay that way for a long while.
“Bob on August 26th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
HD you seem to think of Americana as some sort of aristocracy and it wreaks of class envy. I will caution you: if you don’t shape up soon your kids will likely inherit your “other side of the tracks” paradigm and it will haunt them.”
When (and if) my kids go off to college they’ll have the benefit of having experienced a very diverse environment.
The many college kids who grew up on our street and babysat for us frequently this summer all reported that they felt much more prepared for college life than many of their classmates. Two of them attributed this directly to city living and being more indepedent and exposed to much more of what is actually out there in the world.
“I don’t know one family who is in the market right now in the city that does not have the school as their number one priority”
Just out of curiosity, is it fair to say you and your friends aren’t from Chicago?
Not meant as a slam at all, btw – my hypothesis on all this is just that those of us from Chicago aren’t as intimidated by the prospect of sending our kids to schools outside the neighborhood as those folks who come from places with good schools who have never had to even think about this as an issue.
“There’s something to be said about raising a kid on the north shore and sending them to a north shore high school. FOr those kids the world always seemed like their oyster. They were traveling around the world, making contacts with wealthy families, going to the best colleges, they had that north shore “i’m the $hit” attitude that was desirable…..maybe I’m just projecting that upon them but Ferris could have only come from the North Shore if you know what I mean.”
I don’t know that going to say New Trier or whatever truly adds much incrementally to your college chances, all else equal. You probably have a better chance of getting into a good Ivy school if you went to a crappy school (all else equal) and used the material for your application essay.
“I was accepted at every school I applied to, including Washington University in St. Louis. Did you have a point?”
…you just proved it!!
it’s about half and half I’d say in terms of native Chicagoans.
I do see your hypothesis on the issue. Bottomline for us is that I think it’s made us much more involved in education, which is something I don’t see happening in those that move to the burbs. I have many friends who simply move to the northshore because their kids have to go to New Trier. They may not know anything about it other than its New Trier, but they ‘have to have it’.
A little bit of that is starting to creep into the Chicago attitude as well. With the big name schools grabbing the attention.
Are the student at the Ivy’s or Highly Selective colleges from great high schools or crappy high schools?
Of course they’re all from great high schools. Very few went to crappy high schools.
Going to a great high school doesn’t give you a better chance of getting in to a selective college – it’s practically a prereq. If all your friends, peers and classmates are going to good colleges, there is chance you will too.
If all your schoolmates are attending community colleges or for-profit private technical schools; guess where you’ll be going?
“I don’t know that going to say New Trier or whatever truly adds much incrementally to your college chances, all else equal. You probably have a better chance of getting into a good Ivy school if you went to a crappy school (all else equal) and used the material for your application essay.”
“You probably have a better chance of getting into a good Ivy school if you went to a crappy school (all else equal) and used the material for your application essay”
WRONG WRONG WRONG – it IS extremely important where you go to high school – college administrators know this. Why do you think the boarding schools out east have such HIGH acceptance rates into Ivy League schools? Do you really think the kids going there are that much smarter than anyone else?!!
“It’s the same as JMM’s snobbish and arrogant attitude; which comes off so arrogant even though he’s basically wrong in 90% of his posts.”
You actually have to believe he is who he says he is, which I actually rather doubt. Do you seriously believe that CC is filled with several scions of wealthy families who manage their families multiple businesses or investment funds? He doesn’t have the maturity and strikes me as an IB analyst.
“and unfortunately, they control a lot of the money in this country and until you can find a way to wrestle the money from their cold dead hands it’s going to stay that way for a long while. ”
The last and perhaps only opportunity in our lifetime for this to happen was in the fall of 2008, when the financial markets were on the brink. That was the last chance for capitalism to be at work and for a massive wealth transfer to occur from those who bet wrong to those both bet right and/or had assets on the sidelines waiting for it. Our government rushed in the eleventh hour to preserve the status quo and since bailouts have been codified into law.
Furious? You should be. Don’t vote for any politician who voted for that bailout nor for the financial services reform bill. I know I’ll certainly remember come NOvember.
You guys all talk about your kids going to Ivy league schools like its some sort of golden ticket. Let me tell you something–its a ticket to hell these days. I have a cousin who just graduated from an Ivy League school and (presumably) deep in debt. She can’t get a job so she’s continuing her education in the fall, just piling on more debt (I presume, my uncle isn’t a super high earner so, but these things aren’t typically talked about either).
People who think their kids going to an Ivy League school is the end all be all are the same sorts of people who think their kid is going to be the next President, Senator, physician or astronaut. Not gonna happen in the majority of cases and truth be told people have their own ideas about what they do with their lives as they enter adulthood.
GW Bush is all I have to say about Ivy League schools. The term we’re missing is LEGACY admission.
btw, St Ignatius has similar legacy admissions.
“…you just proved it!!”
umm…I grew up in the City. : )
I think a lot of people see a difference in sending their kids to CPS elementary and high school. I have no problem staying in the city through elementary – but would consider going private or moving to the burbs for high school
Somebody help me. I don’t get it.
The previous 2-flat was purchased in May 2010. SInce then, the structure has been demolished and a new SFH has been built in the 3 months? Or is this place still under construction (picture is just a rendering), and it was just released for pre-sale?
Put simply — Is this home currently standing?
danny, we are TRYING to have a conversation about education/wealth/schools. Why do you have to bring real estate into the discussion?!!
“Of course they’re all from great high schools. Very few went to crappy high schools.”
Wonder if anyone has any stats? I’m not particularly disagreeing with this claim (it doesn’t disprove my point), just curious.
First, I’m happy to have found something that HD and clio (and perhaps everyone else) can agree on.
Second, I’d bet that persevering through a bad school (including top test scores), and being able to package that in a clever/subtle way in your application, would be a huge plus at a good Ivy.
“would be a huge plus at a good Ivy.”
DZ curious why you think a good Ivy would be ideal for your kid’s situation? Or would it rather be more ideal for you to brag to the neighbors at cocktail parties?
I actually hear many of my colleagues who live in the north shore complain how their children can’t get into top universities b/c every classmate applies to the ivy buy can only accept so many from one high-school.
I agree with Clio on this, yeah – they know your HS rank and care about the rigor of programs. Of courss, when you look at the “Schools out east” remember that Exeter, Choate etc are grooming these kids from birth for the Ivys. I have friends who went to Harvard and everywhere else along the spectrum and if I said I wasnt a tinge jealous of friends who knew classmates that brought them Gstaad for vacation I’d be lying.
Having studied at U. of C., Harvard, and Stanford – I can tell you that there IS a difference in these “better institutions”- maybe not in the education itself, but in the relationships you build, the observations and insight you gain from other successful people, the motivation/curiosity that is encouraged/nurtured, “built in credibility” as well as the ridiculously significant advantages you gain when you apply for jobs/ graduate schools.
“curious why you think a good Ivy would be ideal for your kid’s situation? Or would it rather be more ideal for you to brag to the neighbors at cocktail parties?”
I have no idea what’s good for my kid at this point. I was just trying to keep HD from moving to the north shore.
“I have a cousin who just graduated from an Ivy League school and (presumably) deep in debt. She can’t get a job so she’s continuing her education in the fall, just piling on more debt (I presume, my uncle isn’t a super high earner so, but these things aren’t typically talked about either).”
I think many of the Ivy’s eliminated loans in financial aid packages (possibly depending on family income for certain schools). The family income threshold is pretty high to qualify for financial aid.
I have touched on this point many many many time before. so here are the cliff notes.
*this is based on an average kid
its not just the parents and schools its the kids and environment your kid hangs around. if your kid hangs around or is in a environment where going to college is expected then his goal will be to get in the best college (i.e New trier, top cps, glennbrook, ect). now the same kid is in an environment where just graduating HS is good and going to college is a goal/bonus goal (i.e. basic CPS, Palitine, Schiller Park). you can see the better option right away (yep senerio 2 = JuCo is that)
also lets put it another way,
I coming from a Top CPS High school and a Bottom CPS HS, am planning ahead
Option A: kids a genius and will test into a god CPS school
Option B: turn around local school, will and have been trying to do this while counting on option A
Option C: already have a saving for private, which if not used will roll into college savings
Option D: burbs here i come, i am ok if my soul is gone, the little one(s) its worth it
Option E: lotto ticket
also for all you going to the CPS route;
class size at 35 with cuts will be 40 and if your still ok with that when the kids gets to HS age its a crap shoot from there.
“class size at 35 with cuts will be 40 and if your still ok with that when the kids gets to HS age its a crap shoot from there.”
Sounds like you’re buying into the hysteria the teacher’s unions are having the press generate.
Do you _really_ think there is a significant incremental disadvantage to a class size of 40 vs 35? Its certainly not the same as going from 5 to 10. Don’t buy into their hype: the teachers union, like all other state unions, needs to be broken. Call their bluff this November with your vote.
Bob,
anon will point out Oriole park, 40 per class, disproves my theroy. But i still 100% believe class size is a Huge factor in CPS. (in other non urban schools class size is a small factor.)
Bob as the class size grows quality diminishes and kids, sorry for the phrase, the average kid “slips through the cracks”
Arne Duncan went to Latin (or is it Lab) then went to harvard, had a brief stay as muck of CPS and now he is our education leader.
I went to CPS then CPS HS then JuCo then State school, and i am typing about education on a Real Estate blog from my work desk.
One of things I always railed about was the almost complete absence of any students from non-magnet high schools at my college. There were a good number of kids from Whitney Young and Kenwood, and a couple from Lane Tech (NSCP did not yet exist), but that’s it – no ‘regular’ or “neighborhood” schools were represented at all.
Though the school evaluated its outreach/diversity efforts in part by % low income and % public school graduate, they did not, e.g. (at the time) distinguish between students from regular CPS high schools and those from elite ones.
So students from non-elite public schools got the shaft (I’ve heard this was the same for NYC, where there are more elite public schools).
I don’t think it was the result of explicit discrimination against the non-elite schools per se, but rather insufficient knowledge on the part of the committees and the lack of explicit focus on attracting and retaining those students.
In any case, remember this was for HIGH SCHOOLS, not elementary schools.
“I went to CPS then CPS HS then JuCo then State school, and i am typing about education on a Real Estate blog from my work desk”
….don’t feel bad, Groove – I studied at U. of C., Harvard and then Stanford and I, too, am “typing about education on a Real Estate blog from my work desk”!!!!
“class size at 35 with cuts will be 40 and if your still ok with that when the kids gets to HS age its a crap shoot from there.”
HS class size has actually been cut to 28 with federal dollars, and ES class sizes are maintained (though relatively quietly, since the class size thing was at least in part a bargaining chip in the teacher union negotiations).
“It’s the same as JMM’s snobbish and arrogant attitude; which comes off so arrogant even though he’s basically wrong in 90% of his posts. just totally wrong and ignant and he doesn’t even know it yet he keeps shooting his mouth off.”
Wrong in 90% of my posts purely because I have a different view of wealth in America (as well as fundamental economic principles)?
HD, you are the broken record hack who keeps posting the same negative rants, over and over. At least provide some insight (which you used to do with your chancery-styled / CCRD ninja analysis but somehow stopped doing, perhaps for fear you are giving free advice away who knows), or modulate your posts to the property at hand. Instead, we hear “buy now or be priced out forever” in at least every other post. What is the value of that? Do you realize that is boring to read and not supported by fact?
I’d like to think I provide some perspective about the MO of a family that is actually considering and can afford a home in the upper bracket. It is a counter point to HD’s blatant (might I say blind) disbelief that everyone must be leveraged 200% or a fraud to afford a nice home nowadays.
“Sounds like you’re buying into the hysteria the teacher’s unions are having the press generate. ”
There’s plenty to complain about re: the teachers’ union, but you’ve got this backward. It was the city (CPS) who pushed this (and teacher layoffs) to the media as part of its efforts to renegotiate the CTU contract.
“HS class size has actually been cut to 28 with federal dollars”
class size for CPS HS isnt the reason it sux azz 🙂 my view is by that age some class can be taught lecture hall style.
its the Elem and Preschool that should have the small class sizes.
but that just my random internet ideas and beliefs that probably dont hold in the real world.
Hubberman will save the day 🙂
“Somebody help me. I don’t get it.
The previous 2-flat was purchased in May 2010. SInce then, the structure has been demolished and a new SFH has been built in the 3 months? Or is this place still under construction (picture is just a rendering), and it was just released for pre-sale?
Put simply — Is this home currently standing?”
Pretty sure it is there. The first picture on the listing is of the actual house, and it matches the picture on this post which I think is Sabrina’s. Listing says the interior are of another house (seems like there’s a porch through the window, which isn’t present on this house). Says delivery Aug 15.
Is 3 months an implausible timetable?
JMM – I know you feel you have to defend your honor/position (believe me, I KNOW how you feel) – but, coming from someone who gets a LOT of criticism on this site, just let them say whatever they want to say. Your opinions are just as valid and leave it at that. Every good discussion needs ALL perspectives (otherwise we would just be agreeing w/each other – how much fun could that be?).
“….don’t feel bad, Groove – I studied at U. of C., Harvard and then Stanford and I, too, am “typing about education on a Real Estate blog from my work desk”!!!!”
yep you missed where i was going on that one.
Lot value differential between Agaziz and Burley is about $80k. Seems about right and should traingulate to the parochial rate for 2 kids at least through 5 grade discounted back to year 1.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1529-W-Wolfram-St-60657/home/13364386
Now this could help CPS tremendously:
http://www.progressillinois.com/posts/content/2010/08/23/daleys-tif-empire-gets-targeted-springfield
clio, for what it’s worth, I 100% believe everything you say, even if it’s in poor taste. Google is a wonderful thing.
As a CPS teacher who works at a HS that had the highest improved PSAE score, I am interested in your talk about moving to areas with a good school. However, Hawthorne is in the area for these parents which is a selective enrollment school.
As a member of the union, our teachers got screwed. People were laid off due to the class size going up to 35 teachers. Now, it is down to 28. The schools now have room to rehire teachers. However, teachers have been stressed since the spring about losing jobs. We didn’t know what was going on. You would think they would want to keep the staff members and continue to develop us as educators with our increased scores.
Parents, you need to be upset with the board of education concerning what is happening to the teachers who are working for your students. I should not have to worry and stress about keeping my job, which was the constant discussion between teachers.
Rather I should be focusing on discussion of improvements to the curriculum for the students in the school.
Also JMM you obviously don’t know about the Belmont El stop which is right around the corner from this place. Lets just say its provides optimal “huntin’ grounds” for people who take the el in after hours.
And given how strange the Belmont stop is with all of the dregs milling about, the ne’er do wells don’t necessarily stand out from the regular space cadets & trannies.
Proximity to Belmont el peoples: at least +200k valuation. NOT.
What are you possibly talking about? I posted on the differential of school districts.
Don’t draw me into your sick sexual predator-obsessed world.
Ok, I am following the Groove diet here. Will wait until Bob’s depravity subsidies.
“This from the guy who vividly describes imagined sexual assualts in properties discussed on this blog. Give me a break.”
He’s Climbing in Your Windows, He’s snatchin your people up, y’all need to Hide your kids, Hide your wife and hide your husband Cuz they’re errbody out here So you can run and tell that, Run and tell that Run and tell that, homeboy Home, home, homeboy. We got your t-shirt You done left fingerprints and all, You are so dumb, You are really dumb–for real
The future owner would best not be fooled by daylight appearances. This part of Seminary is definitely a high crime area.
Unless you never plan on leaving your house without your car between the hours of 10:30pm-6:30am, the closer you get to the Belmont El stop around here the easier target you are for those that utilize it to urban hunt. There’s little the cops can do before the fact as there are strange looking people all over this stop at all hours in warmer months. They just wait until after the fact when the bad guys are halfway home on the red line.
Clio,
I agree with your school assessment. Middle Class parents who don’t want to play the lottery (Magnet) and therefore put education as a priority will choose the suburbs every time. There is a reason you see lots of babies and toddlers in the city neighborhoods, but not as many school age children.
Those middle class parents who stick in the city also have lots of good reasons, but top notch education is not number 1 on the list.
“I don’t know that going to say New Trier or whatever truly adds much incrementally to your college chances, all else equal. You probably have a better chance of getting into a good Ivy school if you went to a crappy school (all else equal) and used the material for your application essay.”
You are correct. Anyone who tells you differently hasn’t had direct involvement with the admissions process at a “top” school. (and being admitted to multiple top schools doesn’t count)
Yes, New Trier will get 8 (or 12 or whatever) admits to H/Y/P *every* year, while CPS non-magnet HS X might get one every eight years, but that’s still a better yield based on applications, as 80+ NT seniors apply to all three every year and HS X probably doesn’t have one app per year.
“Yes, New Trier will get 8 (or 12 or whatever) admits to H/Y/P *every* year, while CPS non-magnet HS X might get one every eight years, but that’s still a better yield based on applications, as 80+ NT seniors apply to all three every year and HS X probably doesn’t have one app per year.”
yep,
but thats talking elite admittance, and we all know Average applications/admittance out of HS X is way lower than Average “expected” applications/Admittance from NT.
so run tell dat!
New Trier is a good school, but my impression is most go to big 10 schools (when they are free on bond to do so).
There is certainly an upper cadre of kids that is not dissimilar from the private boarding schools (if there were set on a stand alone basis).
My alma hs was a bay area school that was similar to New Trier. Probably send 15 kids to Stanford, but a good half of those were kids of profs, etc. Most went to the UC system, USC, pac 10 or smaller west coast colleges.
Re: North Shore College Opportunities
If you want your kids to go to Colorado, then by all means send them to NT or Loyola. SO few North Shore kids go to Ivies. Most of the top kids end up at state schools, good state schools, but state schools. Anyone that tells you differently is lying and doesn’t actually know anything about the North Shore.
That’s the reason I always get a chuckle out of JMM taking about the social misfits from U of C while bragging about his own supposedly elite education. News flash, JMM, all Ivy League kids are nerds. JMM either went to CU, or he’s who he says he is and would get pantsed on site by Bob or HD.
Or sight, works either way.
“My alma hs was a bay area school that was similar to New Trier.”
Paly, huh? Back when prop 13 was only starting to ruin California public education.
Less than half the size of NT, no?
Again, JMM proves that doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Even the really good Bay Area private schools only send one kid to S per year. Stanford only has 6,000 undergrads. How could they take 15 kids from a single school.
Too funny.
“Yes, New Trier will get 8 (or 12 or whatever) admits to H/Y/P *every* year, while CPS non-magnet HS X might get one every eight years, but that’s still a better yield based on applications, as 80+ NT seniors apply to all three every year and HS X probably doesn’t have one app per year”
OK – this is misinterpretation of data – you CANNOT go by PERCENTAGE of people applying vs. getting in (for any particular school) because this is a severely skewed number. You should look at the NUMBER of people getting in vs the total number of people attending that particular high school/school system from which they are applying. Also, as politically incorrect as this may be, you have to also account for affirmative action and athletic admissions. Once you do this, you can see that your child will have a “snowballs” chance in hell of getting into an IVY league school!!!
“yep,
but thats talking elite admittance, and we all know Average applications/admittance out of HS X is way lower than Average “expected” applications/Admittance from NT.
so run tell dat!”
no doubt groovey. You want your kid to go to HYP, you’re better off having them graduate from a bad school, and even better off having them graduate from a bad school in the Dakotas/Wyoming/W.Virginia–they love getting kids from 48/49/50 states in every frosh class. But if your kid isn’t going to be a 4.0+/1500+, extra-curricular resume builder kinda kid, and you want them to get into a University of [state] school, NT (or N’ville or H’dale) is a much, much better thing.
“Once you do this, you can see that your child will have a “snowballs” chance in hell of getting into an IVY league school”
you left off the end of that sentence:
…wherever they go to HS, unless you’re a multi-generational legacy.
Yes, the Phillips Academies (etc) get a disproportionate number of admits to HYP, but they also have a disproportionate number of grads whose great-grandfathers, grandfathers and fathers/mothers went to Phillips and HYP, too. And no matter what anyone sez about legacy admits, that’s not going to change in our lifetimes. Find a first generation Phillips/HYP kid, you’ll find someone who would have gotten into HYP having gone to public HS, too.
Or Gunn. Both sent around 10 kids to Stanford my year. This was 1990ish.
“Even the really good Bay Area private schools only send one kid to S per year. Stanford only has 6,000 undergrads. How could they take 15 kids from a single school.”
It is perhaps the best public school in a state of 30M+ people, is right next door to the university and has a large portion of faculty members as parents of children there. Go figure.
Also:
“ou CANNOT go by PERCENTAGE of people applying vs. getting in”
Of *course* you can–we’re talking about–fundamentally–a lottery amongst the NT/Stuyvesant/boarding school set, where there really is a max number any given college will accept from school X in a given year, but your kid might be (max + 1) behind legacy kids and the three scary brilliant kids.
“How could [Stanford] take 15 kids from a single school.”
you’d be surprised…
“It is perhaps the best public school in a state of 30M+ people, is right next door to the university and has a large portion of faculty members as parents of children there. Go figure.”
And the yield is basically 100%–you admit them, they enroll. Admissions committees *love* reliable yield.
I also don’t think Andover and Exeter, for example, send as many kids to HYP as people think. And as anon notes, a chunk of that is legacy.
Stanford has well established sports programs in all types of areas. 2 chaps from my hs went to play water polo there.
“Stanford has well established sports programs in all types of areas. 2 chaps from my hs went to play water polo there.”
? non sequitor?
Oh and Stanford probably counts school where the kids are generally thought of as cool, smart and athletic. Basically everything that University of Chicago undergrad misfits aren’t (except smart, but only in a savant way).
I mean, Fred Savage and Erkel went there. What more need be said.
Non compos mentis, maybe.
Point was sports scholarships pick up a number of Stanford kids from local bay area HS. As I recall, 2 kids went for polo, 1 girl for volley, stuff like that. Probably 5 were brainiacs the balance were legacy plus athletes.
Which by the way, someone here should use redfin and google Atherton CA real estate. Or Palo Alto, Los Altos (Hills). Then HD can rant about why Google stock is overvalued or something. The price differential is staggering.
“Point was sports scholarships pick up a number of Stanford kids from local bay area HS.”
That makes sense. Didn’t put 1 and 1 together.
“someone here should use redfin and google Atherton CA real estate. Or Palo Alto, Los Altos (Hills).”
Or we can just as clio, who apparently lived in Atherton.
Looking, there’s a damn lot of inventory right now–57 (which include more than a couple not actually in Atherton). If I had that kind of $$ and wanted a mid-Pen location, I’d rather be west of 280, but that’s just me. This one is okay by me: http://www.redfin.com/CA/Woodside/Hidden-Valley-Ln-94062/home/1222322
Yeah that is all great stuff about Ivy Leauge schools but how many NT kids end up at the University of Southern Palatine aka the other Har….as in Har….per C.C. ?
West of 280 doesn’t foster neighborhoods and the land isn’t flat. LAH and Woodside are cool but you have to not want any sense of neighborhood / sidewalk living. Might as well be up on skyline at that point which is total seclusion / woodsy. Atherton is well liked because the lots are 1 acre + and the land is generally flat which is rarer there.
“Atherton is well liked because the lots are 1 acre + and the land is generally flat which is rarer there.”
Oh, I understand. But as I say, had I the $$ to afford (rather than merely to buy) a $5mm+ house, I’d rather be in the hills. Try to sneak into Larry’s zen garden while he’s on his yacht.
I must say all of you parents talking about your kids going to HYP has provided me as much, if not more bemusement than Joe Zekas pitching overpriced condos back in the day!
I guess most have a disassociation from reality depending on the subject. Westloopelo’s kids have about as good of a shot as yours 😀
“Or we can just as clio, who apparently lived in Atherton”
I DID live in Atherton and hated it so much I came RUNNING back to Chicago!! Seriously, just for entertainment, everyone should look up real estate in Atherton – it will BLOW your mind. My house was a 50s 4br/2ba, 2000 sq ft (barely) ranch w/o air conditioning or a basement. It had wood siding w/a pebble stone flat roof and cost over 3million. It IS RIDICULOUS… and talk about BORING. The suburbs here are 100000000000X more exciting!!
Oh, and Stanford SUCKED compared to Harvard (in almost every way – except the weather). Absolutely no question or competition in my eyes. Very disappointing to make that cross country move, but that’s life.
“My house was a … ranch w/o … a basement.”
Basement are rather a liability in the bay area. Having one generally poses some issues.
“and HS X probably doesn’t have one app per year”
I can tell you for at least one of H/Y/P, this is not the case. I think it’s a fair assumption that for the other 2, it isn’t either.
“I DID live in Atherton and hated it so much I came RUNNING back to Chicago!! Seriously, just for entertainment, everyone should look up real estate in Atherton – it will BLOW your mind. My house was a 50s 4br/2ba, 2000 sq ft (barely) ranch w/o air conditioning or a basement. It had wood siding w/a pebble stone flat roof and cost over 3million. It IS RIDICULOUS… and talk about BORING. The suburbs here are 100000000000X more exciting!!”
Annoying.
Please leave.
Hey, anybody want to buy my house in this district? jk, but my kids are in college now and the suburbs kind of suck. Great house, but preppy neighbors. No place for an aging hippie. But if you’re into premium beer…
I imagine my circa 1986 4-bedroom 3.5-bath house, bought for $350,000 in 1993, is probably worth $500,000 now. My husband would say its worth more, but he is still caught up in bubble thinking.
“Heck, you can find a reasonable enough place in Naperville that will send your child to Highlands (#9 elementary school according to Sun Times), then Kennedy (#10 elementary school) and then Naperville North (#12 HS) for just about any income imagineable.”
“Annoying.
Please leave.”
Jon, please read and re-read the posts on this and other threads and then tell me honestly if you think my post was any more annoying or inappropriate than others. You can disagree w/my opinions, but please try to be an adult and validate your position. You cannot be insulting w/o reason. This is the 2nd time you have attacked me – you need to stop it. Seriously, if you don’t like what I have to say, don’t read my posts. Simple as that.
“OK – this is misinterpretation of data – you CANNOT go by PERCENTAGE of people applying vs. getting in (for any particular school) because this is a severely skewed number. You should look at the NUMBER of people getting in vs the total number of people attending that particular high school/school system from which they are applying. Also, as politically incorrect as this may be, you have to also account for affirmative action and athletic admissions. Once you do this, you can see that your child will have a “snowballs” chance in hell of getting into an IVY league school!!!”
What’s with the obsession with the ivy league? They are overrated. Massive grade inflation in the ivy league. Same education for much less cost at the solid state schools. Better faculty and more opportunities at the state schools too (to find yourself). There are double Harvard grads (undergrad and Harvard Law School) making $25 an hour doing contract lawyering in Manhattan right now. A lot of good it did them.
Also- think about the odds. When I was graduating high school, Princeton had something like 23 students entering its Freshman class from Illinois. That’s the whole state! (Princeton is one of the smallest ivies however.) You can assume, with all the excellent high schools, that 10 or 12 of them weren’t from NT. Maybe 2 or 3- if that.
If you really want your child to go to one of the ivys or the other competitive private schools- you need to live in a state, as someone said, like Wyoming, that doesn’t get many applicants. Or an area of the state where they normally don’t see any applicants. One of my friends grew up on a farm in Iowa and got into all of the private schools she applied to. She didn’t have super high test scores- but after seeing all the applications from the dime-a-dozen rich north shore kids, who would you rather admit?
You are right, Sabrina – way too much emphasis is placed on attending Ivy/prestigious institutions. There are so many extremely smart, intelligent people who went to other schools (and those who didn’t go to school at all!). I think the “problem” is that businesses/hospitals/government WILL look at a Harvard/Ivy league grad much more favorably than someone from State U./etc. – this is not to say that they are right, just playing the odds as they feel they are getting a “known” quantity. They do NOT put enough attention on the qualities that really matter in any job environment(one’s ability to get along w/ others, sense of teamwork, COMMON SENSE, willingness to help, etc.). Unfortunately, you cannot really judge these qualities in a 1-day interview!!
College is so ridiculously expensive nowadays, that I would encourage high school kids to consider state schools and community colleges. Entering into your 20s debt free is vastly more important (in my opinion) than having a diploma from an ivy.
State schools are capable of providing a great education in most professional degrees (engineering, business, medicine, etc.). The real added value of any ivy degree is limited to a few specialized areas (investment banking, government/foreign service, big law, academics).
“College is so ridiculously expensive nowadays, that I would encourage high school kids to consider state schools and community colleges. Entering into your 20s debt free is vastly more important (in my opinion) than having a diploma from an ivy.”
If we’re talking about HYP (and some others), they have pretty generous financial aid and (I believe) expect no loans as part of the package. For working class families it’s free. Even Exeter and Andover have policies that try to emulate that (I’m not fully sure how close they get).
“The smartest poster on this website is Bob, then homedelete. Period”
Dan, do I at least get 3rd place? …..please….. pretty please…. I promise to write only things with which you agree….
Hey Bob and Dan – go get a room!!
Clio go drive your red lambo and race JMM in his white Bugatti Veyron. LMAO!
so…bob and homedelete are the smartest on here? thanks for starting my day off with a good laugh.
I suggest two books re: college selection:
Loren Pope’s “Colleges That Change Lives”, regarding higher-quality college education experience available at small well-regarded liberal arts colleges that outperform traditional Ivy League undergraduate programs and certainly the big state schools. Note that most college educators try to send their kids to these schools, such as Earlham in Indiana.
Murray Spender’s “Beer and Circus; How Big Time College Sports in Crippling Undergraduate Education”, regarding relative poor caliber of grad student-dominated undergraduate education at the big state schools. Parents thinking of sending their kids to a Big Ten school should read this “buyer beware” book, so at least they’re forewarned.
Every New Trier parent with whom we’ve spoken relates same advice: “NT great for overachiever motivated daughter, but disaster for middling “lost in pack” son.” If your kid isn’t star caliber, then huge NT is an anonymous unhappy experience in a pressure-cooker atmosphere. Most grads are packed off to the state schools.
““NT great for overachiever motivated daughter, but disaster for middling “lost in pack” son.””
Describes me and my sis perfectly. Me being the underachiever in HS and her the overachiever. Now I make at least twice as much as her and she’s the one on happy pills.
In terms of success translating into adulthood it’s all about peaking at the right time. If you pressure your kids they will rebel against you and/or burnout and not turn into the astronaut/senator/heart transplant surgeon you thought they were. Its okay though they probably weren’t anyway.
“You can assume, with all the excellent high schools, that 10 or 12 of them weren’t from NT”
If i am sending my kid to NT its not because i want him to go IVY its because i want him just to go to college and around like minded teen’s who think going to a state school is a given and everything else is a plus.
I in CPS would hear people bragging that they got into UICU or U of Wisc. that was because most were not going to college some JuCo. my favorite was the kids happy to get into Northeastern IL U.
seriously NEIU is not a goal its a emergency back up to the back up to the original back up plan.
“seriously NEIU is not a goal its a emergency back up to the back up to the original back up plan”
Every school has its positives and negatives – each student should find a school that fits their needs best – a place they will be nurtured and succeed. That is the most important thing. The Ivys/prestigious institutions are NOT for everyone. During my time at U. of C., Harvard, and Stanford, I have seen some VERY VERY miserable people who, if they had been in another environment may have fluorished/succeeded, but didn’t because the school really didn’t fit their needs. They did poorly and some of them even dropped out. They are in a much worse situation now than they would have been had they opted to go to a school more suited to their personality/goals, etc.
“Note that most college educators try to send their kids to these schools”
Ridiculous over-generalization. Also, keep in mind that *most* private schools have a variation on free tuition reciprocity for faculty kids–I knew a number of kids who had a parent on the faculty at other schools, and they got 90% (generally) reduction in their tuition.
“I in CPS would hear people bragging that they got into UICU or U of Wisc. that was because most were not going to college some JuCo. my favorite was the kids happy to get into Northeastern IL U.”
I did not go to CPS, rather in a district with a long-standing rep for solid education–I sat thru a small group presentation from the counselor on “what to do if you don’t get a 17 ACT or graduate in the top half of your class to get the auto-admit to the 2d-tier state college”–anyone who went to college more than one state away was really stretching. Maybe 1/3 of my class started at a 4-year school, and I’m sure the grad rate from that group was less than 75%–and the state school were not on the level of Madison and Champ-bana.
Wowwow guys, discussion of snobby beer, the bay area and prestigious colleges. The only topic you’ve missed to make you all the ultimate dbs is golf at exclusive country clubs. Congrats guys, you’ve outdone yourselves.
“Wowwow guys, discussion of snobby beer, the bay area and prestigious colleges. The only topic you’ve missed to make you all the ultimate dbs is golf at exclusive country clubs. Congrats guys, you’ve outdone yourselves.”
You skipped/missed (like I did, b/c it was deleted) the discussion about how you and Bob are the two smartest guys here. That must fit into the ultimate-DB* calculation somewhere, too.
*sorry, ALT.
I’m gonna give Groove props on actually finding a good, realistic reason to send your kids to a good HS.
Parents harp on class size & stats but such things are really secondary to the biggest issue: peer influence. As your kids enter middle and HS as you know their peers tend to have more influence than their folks. If they’re around like minded peers they’re much more likely to be successful. If they’re around peers who are generally unmotivated or don’t care about college that could/would have a huge adverse affect on their life plans.
“golf at exclusive country clubs”
Speaking of which, what’s the ballpark membership and annual dues or whatever at one of these around here? I’m not of that world, and have zero desire to be, but I am, as ever, curious.
“Parents harp on class size & stats but such things are really secondary to the biggest issue: peer influence. As your kids enter middle and HS as you know their peers tend to have more influence than their folks. If they’re around like minded peers they’re much more likely to be successful. If they’re around peers who are generally unmotivated or don’t care about college that could/would have a huge adverse affect on their life plans.”
And I agree with Bob and Groove on this point, too.
That said, kids who want trouble will find it wherever they go to school, and being at NT wouldn’t stop that; it just stops the “typical” kid from having rampant opportunity to be trouble (ie, *probably* would have stopped Groove, except maybe the fights in B’town).
“The only topic you’ve missed to make you all the ultimate dbs is golf at exclusive country clubs. Congrats guys, you’ve outdone yourselves”
actually, they are building the Chicago Highlands Golf Club down the street from me. It is odd because Butler, OB Golf Club, and Meadowlark and Highland Club are all witin a mile of each other. Membership to the “Chicago Highlands” is just under 200k and you still have to be invited to join. Obviously, there is still a lot of money out there!!! – there, homedelete, we have achieved total DB status!!!
60-70K initiation at Ridgemoor and Park Ridge CC. Dues run arond a grand a month including average food and golf.
“The only topic you’ve missed to make you all the ultimate dbs is golf at exclusive country clubs”
what you dont lunch at bryn mawr?
“That said, kids who want trouble will find it wherever they go to school, and being at NT wouldn’t stop that; it just stops the “typical” kid from having rampant opportunity to be trouble (ie, *probably* would have stopped Groove, except maybe the fights in B’town).”
Ding ding ding, Anon 99% true brother. I still would have gotten into trouble as it was/is my nature but the level of trouble would have been different at NT (and probably worse at glenbrook north)
Groove – I agree. You absolutely nailed it on the peer group comment. I now realize that my parents quietly and carefully helped steer me away from a few friends I had in 7th and 8th grade that have gone on to some really sad lives. Had I stayed in that group in HS I wonder how it would have changed the trajectory of my life. the rest of my friends from that era all have turned out to have good families and decent lives.
My college roommate has 4 kids who are a senior, junior, and freshman and the other one who will be at NT in another year. From watching them I think that the whole north shore experience is a pressure cooker. Everyone up there seem to be overly worried about what car they drive, the brand of clothes, and where they are going on vacation. Sad….
“Everyone up there seem to be overly worried about what car they drive, the brand of clothes, and where they are going on vacation. Sad”
Jp3 would have loved to have THOSE worries when i was in high school (grass is alwasy greener)
the peer group idea is not 100% true as i turned out somewhat ok but my helping factor was my parents ad the fact i was always the leader and instigator of the group if i was a follower personality i would be in a big mess of a life.
“would have loved to have THOSE worries when i was in high school (grass is alwasy greener)”
But the question is can you find a place where people care about their kids, have a comfortable life, but don’t go crazy on the status things? I’m not quite sure, frankly.
“60-70K initiation at Ridgemoor and Park Ridge CC. Dues run arond a grand a month including average food and golf.”
Are these on the less expensive end? Also, don’t know if this a stupid question, but do you get initiation fees back when you leave?
“Jp3 would have loved to have THOSE worries when i was in high school (grass is alwasy greener)”
No, those worries suck, if you’re the “poor” kid. Yes, it’s relative (see the SoPoor comment from a while back), but if you’re the kid living in the 1br rental with a single parent working double shifts to pay the rent just so you can go to NT, that’s its own sort of big problem for a “typical” kid.
“But the question is can you find a place where people care about their kids, have a comfortable life, but don’t go crazy on the status things? I’m not quite sure, frankly.”
In the near vicinity of a major metro? I’m not sure, either. But there are definitely places like that.
“But the question is can you find a place where people care about their kids, have a comfortable life, but don’t go crazy on the status things? I’m not quite sure, frankly.”
Yeah its called Ohio and be sure to send us postcards.
Speaking of being the poor kid in rich suburbs…
I wonder where are the best areas in the suburbs to pull off a “slums of beverly hills” type situation. You know, where you can live in a cheap house in a top school district.
Maybe someplace like Highwood (Highland Park H.S.). I know there are small ranch home neighborhoods in Wilmette and Northfield (New Trier H.S.). Likewise, I’m sure that you could get into the Naperville or Glenbard school districts living in some unincorporated areas on the fringe.
Anyone have any similar ideas?
lower case Danny,
my wife had a play date friend from Gymboree who rented a 2br apartment in Glencoe for like $1,100 a month.
and skip highwood cause go up central and you can get a ranch IN hiland park for dirt cheap now. (taxes still will be high)
“I wonder where are the best areas in the suburbs to pull off a “slums of beverly hills” type situation. You know, where you can live in a cheap house in a top school district.”
For the truly working class, send your kids to Andover/Exeter and then H/Y/P for free. Your kids do, however, have to be off-the-charts. If they’re not on that path, maybe your kids will have a better time where they are less out of place than NT etc.
District 214hersey, buffalo grove, prospect. If your kid does well he they’ll be on par with an nt kid. Kids from my hs had perfect acts and went to harvard yale. Iirc and its been a while but 50 out of 400 in my class went to u of I and another 50 or so went to other big 10 schools. Cheaper housing out there too.
“I wonder where are the best areas in the suburbs to pull off a “slums of beverly hills” type situation. You know, where you can live in a cheap house in a top school district.”
$1495/month for a 2 br/2 ba in Winnetka. http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/apa/1918047233.html
Yeah, it’s an apartment, but if you’re actually close to being poor, you don’t rent a *house* in new trier.
Except most rich kids from NT are wankers and though they are well educated, have no internal drive and/or management skills; often think they are better than the norm and show it.
“Except most rich kids from NT are wankers and though they are well educated, have no internal drive and/or management skills; often think they are better than the norm and show it.”
A-fed but that trait comes from the parents not the school.
I would be very careful before moving into the “worst” house in the best school district. If you think people who post here are mean, you should see these kids. You don’t want your kid to have an inferiority complex or jealousy issues. That being said, if your kids are well-adjusted and mature, it may be a good decision. In most cases, however, it will be torture for the kid.
^^ Make some original points, chief.
“I wonder where are the best areas in the suburbs to pull off a “slums of beverly hills” type situation. You know, where you can live in a cheap house in a top school district.”
I think you can do this just about anywhere you please. Even in the swankiest of towns (generalizing, not 100% of every suburb or anything) there’s always at least a few apartment complexes around. Like I detailed in a post above about specific Naperville schools (what I know), you can find a place in Dist 203 for basically whatever you can afford.
Groove – Agreed, but most likely the parents went to NT if the kids are, that is how the North Shore works.
I’m guessing clio is one of those people who loves to hear themselves talk at parties or while in training sessions, or just in general.
I hate those people
Most family clubs in Chicago that are exclusive seem to be around 60-75k ish to join plus the monthly dues. PRCC is a great place and is probably the best value in that set.
At the exclusive end its up to 125k (think Indian Hill). For the “buy my way in” crowd it can get more than that especially for second clubs that golfers / old men crave (Butler, BobO, etc).
It’s all a waste of money. I’d rather have a boat. Or a nice house.
“I would be very careful before moving into the “worst” house in the best school district. ”
Groove is buying a house on the north shore and will change all that.
“Groove is buying a house on the north shore and will change all that.”
Its funny the green zone ‘hoods were too “yuppie” and not diverse enough for the Groove and his eastern European tattooed wifey.
But now when it comes to the kiddos its all about fleeing to the yuppiest area imaginable in the midwestern United States.
Wow parenthood has sure changed the Groovester..can’t tell if its for the better or worse!
I wonder what all those people who wanted to live in a “hip” and “edgy” neighborhood like Logan Square, or Uptown do if they own a condo and have a similar about-face as Groovester regarding desirability to live. Methinks they’re a six letter word that ends in -ed.
You should repent Groovester and be apologetic that you ever looked down on yuppies in the first place.
Cant speak for all clubs but at PRCC and Ridgemoor there is no equity stake. Once you sign the check you are stuck. That is the tough part. If it were an equity stake I might have actually pulled the trigger already as a bonus to get my wife to move to P.R. sooner.
“but most likely the parents went to NT if the kids are, that is how the North Shore works”
ha so true a guy at work grad from NT after he got married he moved to wilmette then after the second kid over to Glencoe and his wife is third or second gen north shore brat.
“Groove is buying a house on the north shore and will change all that.”
and yes JMM i am still tracking the lower end of Keni for a decent fixer upper. but looks like we will most likely wait till HS age to officially revisit that idea.
“Its funny the green zone ‘hoods were too “yuppie” and not diverse enough for the Groove and his eastern European tattooed wifey”
bob you will see once a kid comes how every view you have will change.
“But now when it comes to the kiddos its all about fleeing to the yuppiest area imaginable in the midwestern United States.”
you missed my above plans i already have in place, see; http://cribchatter.com/?p=8938#comment-88187
Option A: kids a genius and will test into a good CPS school
Option B: turn around local school, will and have been trying to do this while counting on option A
Option C: already have a saving for private, which if not used will roll into college savings
Option D: burbs here i come, i am ok if my soul is gone, the little one(s) its worth it
Option E: lotto ticket
#”Its funny the green zone ‘hoods were too “yuppie” and not diverse enough for the Groove and his eastern European tattooed wifey.
But now when it comes to the kiddos its all about fleeing to the yuppiest area imaginable in the midwestern United States.”
I see plenty of former cutting-edgers who are raising their kids in the city, just fine. One of them lives in Logan Square, but the kid is going to BURLEY! Another set put their kids in the local parochial, St. John Berchman, which seems to do pretty well. And, for what it’s worth, Goethe has a pretty involved parent group, even though their playground is still kind of hinky after school hours. It’s not all bad… Not great, but if you’re a concerned parent, you can figure out a way to get your kid into something good without going broke. How come no one ever talks about the Catholic grammar schools as any option, by the way? Way cheaper than a Parker or a Latin, no?
I’m laughing and imagining that Grooves kids would probably hate the burbs and would be those kids who escape to the city each weekend for fun and mischief, if he ever moves out there…
so you see bob, my LAST option is apologizing to pasty yuppiville.
i will admit, if it will satisfy you, that my plan of saving $$$ living in the hood didnt pan out fully. (moving to the hood worked out till a point that point was last summer)
Good Lord!! When did cribchatter.com turn into collegeconfidential.com?
“I see plenty of former cutting-edgers who are raising their kids in the city, just fine. One of them lives in Logan Square, but the kid is going to BURLEY! Another set put their kids in the local parochial, St. John Berchman, which seems to do pretty well. And, for what it’s worth, Goethe has a pretty involved parent group, even though their playground is still kind of hinky after school hours. It’s not all bad… Not great, but if you’re a concerned parent, you can figure out a way to get your kid into something good without going broke.”
I didn’t appreciate this until I started looking into it, but there are a number of ways to deal with elementary school. I don’t know if they were ever particularly cutting edge but everyone I know in Logan has managed to find a reasonable elementary option. (Possibly the ones that didn’t moved away.) FWIW, while I have heard some marginally ok things about Goethe, I don’t know anyone who sends their kids there who has the means, financial or otherwise, to avoid it.
“bob you will see once a kid comes how every view you have will change.”
A kid is about one of the last things I need. *ding* and yes that is the bell for most of you CC regulars to let out your collective sighs of relief.
“A kid is about one of the last things I need. *ding* and yes that is the bell for most of you CC regulars to let out your collective sighs of relief.”
g.o.
logansquarean: Since we are so far beyond OT already, were you ever inside the 2639 N Fairfield (“urban cottage”) place? If so what did you think of the work they did? They are doing another place in the neighborhood.
“How come no one ever talks about the Catholic grammar schools as any option, by the way?”
I went to catholic school as a kid and would never subject any child to that. And I converted to judiasm when I got married, which made catholic school even less of a possibilty for my kids.
I don’t have kids (or wife) yet, but I know well enough that any ideas I currently have about child rearing have no basis in reality. I’m sure that once the kid comes, schools and safety are the primary consideration. I just hope that the place where I finally build a nest is not soul-suckingly lame.
“I went to catholic school as a kid and would never subject any child to that. And I converted to judiasm when I got married, which made catholic school even less of a possibilty for my kids.”
Wait a sec. I thought that Sex and the City taught us that you can’t convert for marriage.
Anyway, my siblings and I went to marginal public schools while all of my cousins went to catholic school (as did my father and his siblings). It wasn’t worth it. I don’t have a single cousin that has a better job than me, or more influential friends for that matter.
I have to say it’s really irritating when the thread’s topic has become about schools, in particular a discussion of elite school/Ivies, etc. then I linked to an Ivy website, written by a Princeton prof about the very topic, and it got censored. Why?
Editor’s Note: Why was it censored? Because the book you linked to had nothing to do with the alleged quote cited after it (which was by Pat Buchanan, actually.)
“yep you missed where i was going on that one.”
This should be the title of this thread. Or just the post of the week. Cheers, Groove.
P.S. Hey, DZ– curious about this next rehab from the 2639 Fairfield folks. Could give a tip on that? 😉 Purely curiosity. Thanks!
sorry about adding to the schools digression. But…
I went to CPS only for grammar school, then mom sent me to Catholic girls HS, and I chose a Catholic Women’s college. But, I think if nothing else the Catholic grammar school kids that I knew seemed to have all gotten a good education. I’m not sure how much religious indoctrination is done nowadays, compared to decades ago. By HS, at least in the 70’s, “Theology” classes at my progressive HS were minimal and fuzzy religion, not hardcore or evangelical in nature. > Heck if I know what’s going on in parochial schools nowadays, but the kids still look neat and well-behaved, at least, and we’d hope there’s a bit of values-based teaching, which you cannot get a CPS but must get at home or not at all. I think home environment can emphasize or DEemphasize the religious teachings while reinforcing the positive values espoused. I’m not in any way religious, but I appreciate the foundation I got from my semi-religious upbringing. Does that make sense? feel like I’m rambling, but it’s hard to explain.
2639 N. Fairfield? No idea, never was in there. But I REALLY liked what they did from what I saw on the web. I, too, would like to know where else they’re working in the hood.
Editor’s Note: Why was it censored? Because the book you linked to had nothing to do with the alleged quote cited after it (which was by Pat Buchanan, actually.)
not true, the statistics don’t lie, they are fact, the conclusions are the same. You haven’t read the book.
Let the link stand, and let people read it: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9072.html
No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal pulls back the curtain on the selective college experience and takes a rigorous and comprehensive look at how race and social class impact each stage–from application and admission, to enrollment and student life on campus. Arguing that elite higher education contributes to both social mobility and inequality, the authors investigate such areas as:
“admission advantages for minorities, academic achievement gaps tied to race and class, unequal burdens in paying for tuition, and satisfaction with college experiences.”
Its funny those who said the Ivy tuition would be paid for in grants if my relative’s parents couldn’t afford it. She wasn’t a minority nor from low income parents and that policy only applies to Harvard and Yale, as far as I read.
All I know is she likely came out with significant debt, while “disadvantaged minority” students (PC speak for non-Asian) likely came out debt free.
We live in a very racist society where such things can happen with the government’s stamp of approval. I put down other on any form requesting race put in front of me, or black. If race is indeed a social construct I can be whatever race I want.
“not true, the statistics don’t lie, they are fact, the conclusions are the same. You haven’t read the book.”
Neither have you. The quote you gave was from Pat Buchanan in 1998. No serious scholar would use the term “ethnic catholic”.
Stop it.
Yes- let’s also talk about how legacy applicants or those whose parents are rich get into the “elite” schools such as Duke at a disproportionate number it’s a joke.
If you work hard, no matter what your race, class, sex or religion, you can get into the best schools in the nation. Look at our President and First Lady. Neither one grew up privileged but they worked hard to get their educations, just like anyone else in this country can. Study hard. That’s what it takes.
Oh- and the President graduated from law school with significant law school loans. So clearly he didn’t exactly get a free ride. That’s pretty much how it is for everyone these days. Everyone is graduating with some kind of debt, unless their parents can afford to pay outright.
Michelle Antoinette?
“Its funny those who said the Ivy tuition would be paid for in grants if my relative’s parents couldn’t afford it. She wasn’t a minority nor from low income parents and that policy only applies to Harvard and Yale, as far as I read.
All I know is she likely came out with significant debt, while “disadvantaged minority” students (PC speak for non-Asian) likely came out debt free.”
Was she at H/Y/P? I believe those do expect loans as part of the financial aid package for those that receive financial aid. I’m not sure about the policy at the other Ivys. I think some of them have similar policies, but may depend on financial situation (I believe H/Y/P do not depend on financial situation other than that you have to qualify for financial aid, if that make any sense).
I’d be extremely surprised if H/Y/P did not follow their stated policy (and were not called out on it by students/parents). I expect that students may nevertheless take out loans to cover contributions they are expected to make from work-study, summer work, and/or their parents. I think race can be a significant factor in admissions. I don’t think it’s a major factor in financial packages. It’s supposed to be just need based. I’m not quite so naive as to believe it’s wholly pristine but I highly doubt there are systematic race-based differences as is being suggested.
“Oh- and the President graduated from law school with significant law school loans. So clearly he didn’t exactly get a free ride. That’s pretty much how it is for everyone these days. Everyone is graduating with some kind of debt, unless their parents can afford to pay outright.”
As I’ve said, I don’t think this is true for H/Y/P and certain others for college. Law school IS different. It’s not easy to get into H/Y/P but it really is a good deal for working class families.
Re the 2639 Fairfield developers: I’ve heard they are working on the two flat rehab on the west side of 2500 block of Fairfield. (It’s around the middle of the block, between two pretty nice SFHs.)
OK OK … enough about the idiotic discussion about schooling, Ivy league colleges, etc. …. all you have to realize is that me, CLIO who went to U. of C., Harvard, and Stanford is sitting on my computer on Sunday night at midnight posting on “cribchatter”. That will tell you how much faith to put in to an Ivy/prestigious school education!!! One does not need to look farther than my pathetic life to realize that money and schooling are only a ridiculously small part of one’s existence!!……
the same builder did the exact same house on the 1700’s block of West School. Exact same price. I live close by and this house got sold so fast. built by April, sold by May/June.
I guess Some pp still have the cash.. but I do not understand such a pricing for a wood house structure. Some masonry houses are the same price range in the neighborhood.?
Regarding school and Big 10 and State Schools etc.
It is IMHO that many large state schools are geared toward Graduate Students and research (helloooooooo….grant money).
So if I HAD to have a name school, I don’t really care if I went to Iowa, Alabama, University of California…for the MBA or JD can be from NWU/UC/Stanford/H/Y/P
and if money is an issue going one rung down.
Go to Juco for 2 years. Get the basics reqs out of the way. Then go to UIC/UIUC/BigTen and finish and then put that 4 year diploma on your resume.
and seriously. In 10-15 years…is anyone really going to put as much value on where you graduated from vs. what job skills you have? and what you bring to the table?
““yep you missed where i was going on that one.”
This should be the title of this thread. Or just the post of the week. Cheers, Groove.”
SquareD,
I do what i can buddy 🙂