What Does An “Improving” Market Really Mean For Condo Sellers? 240 E. Illinois In Streeterville
This 2-bedroom in the Fairbanks at Cityfront Plaza at 240 E. Illinois in Streeterville recently came on the market.
At 1293 square feet, it is a north facing split 2/2 with a den.
The kitchen has dark cabinets, granite counter tops and stainless steel applianaces.
The listing says it has a marble bath.
The unit has floor to ceiling windows and 9’4″ ceilings.
It has the other amenities common in boom time construction including central air, washer/dryer in the unit and parking is $50,000 extra.
If you add on the price of the parking, this unit is listed at $675,000, or just $24,500 under the 2008 price of $699,500.
Yet a 2/2 unit two floors above, Unit #2508, sold in October for about 22% under its 2008 price (which was $696,500). It sold for just $545,000.
While an improving housing market may mean condo units ARE selling again, what does that mean for a seller who bought new construction in 2005-2009 era?
Is the media hype about the market being “back” giving false hope to many sellers?
Lynn Mendel at Dream Town has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #2308: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1293 square feet, den
- Sold in January 2008 for $699,500
- Originally listed in November 2012 for $625,000 (plus $50,000 for parking)
- Currently still listed for $625,000 (plus $50k for parking)
- Assessments of $773 a month (includes doorman, cable, pool, a/c, gas)
- Taxes of $9457
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 13×12
- Bedroom #2: 14×12
- Office/den: 11×10
Yes. I say it’s giving false hope. There are just too many condos and not enough buyers. There were a lot of buyers at one point but that pace is not going to continue.
“Is the media hype about the market being “back” giving false hope to many sellers?”
Perhaps for some sellers. As for this unit, who knows.
Other than being two floors higher, do we know how 2508 compared to this unit? I imagine they are laid out the same, but maybe this unit’s in better shape or has had some post-08 upgrades. Besides the actual units, were there any differences in the staging of the units, the quality of the listing pics, the quality of the listing broker? Or, you know, the minor detail of who the sellers are, i.e., why was each selling and who are they?
In any event, let’s assume that the units are identical, were identically marketed, and the sellers of 2508 and this unit have identical financial circumstances and housing goals/needs. 2508 sold for $545k. This unit is listed at $675k. Applying the (well, my) rule of thumb that a nice and not entirely generic property should close at roughly 10% below peak pricing, that would set these at a price of $630k. Factoring in the fact that these are smallish 2/2’s (is there a more maligned and generic property type in the GZ?), a further discount below $630k would make sense. Maybe this seller plans to go as low as 2508, or maybe down to somewhere in between ($585k?). Either way, it’s really not that sensational of a topic, certainly not on the order of media-induced delusion.
nice baby pool. $450K sounds about right.
people have no clue what’s coming. this will take decades. not years.
wake me when the market sets interest rates. wake me when the full faith and credit of the US Government has been shown to be the house of fraud and corruption that it is.
we haven’t even seen ugly yet. we’re still in la-la land.
I hate this building its so hideous, why didn’t they just tear down that frickin parking garage instead of building a highrise on top of it and even converting some parking garage space into units
not like its some historic facade that needs to be kept, its a hideous parking garage…
“While an improving housing market may mean condo units ARE selling again, what does that mean for a seller who bought new construction in 2005-2009 era? ”
It means if you bought during that time, you probably have a long way to go to break even.
“nice baby pool”
It does the job as most residents will use it to cool off while tanning not to train in an effort to beat Phelps, Lochte, or Prince Harry in a race.
Back != 2005-2009 levels for all areas. Some sellers need to get real (in over developed areas w/ lots of inventory – not going get anywhere close to peak prices) and some buyers need to get real (in capacity constrained areas w/ low inventory – not going to get the “deals” some people did in 2009-2010).
“It does the job as most residents will use it to cool off while tanning not to train in an effort to beat Phelps, Lochte, or Prince Harry in a race.”
You are probably right but it still is a pathetic excuse of a pool. With exceptions of few building say Heritage or legacy, most high rises have useless pools for babies to piss in if they are indoor or for whales to sun tan/ drink beer if they are out doors. And the best part is that Jennys and Dan Hofers of the world think they are culturally superior to everyone else.
“culturally superior to everyone else”
culture superiority = thinness?
How’s the walking time to Mag Mile these days, Miu?
That is not what I said : ) To me a pool is for swimming not for drinking and eating. Although, it is definitely a sign of lack of food culture when people in 21st century still don’t understand the basics of nutrition. Oh these days with a Toddler who wants to run around in circles I am going fast no where
“To me a pool is for swimming not for drinking and eating.”
Are you talking about a pool in which people are actually in the water consuming drinks and food? Or are they doing so poolside? Outside, the latter can be nice. Heck, not that I’d like to do it all the time, but the former can be fun too. Been to the Grand Wailea (although I really can’t remember if it was just drinks or food as well in the water)?
“Oh these days with a Toddler who wants to run around in circles I am going fast no where”
Have you improved on the time it takes to walk from Roosevelt Road to Water Tower Place?
Nothing really wrong with this place (though I’m not a fan of the location), but it just doesn’t seem worth so much money. I can’t imagine someone wanting to pay nearly $700K for such a unit.
“With exceptions of few building say Heritage or legacy, most high rises have useless pools for babies to piss in if they are indoor or for whales to sun tan/ drink beer if they are out doors.”
How did my name get dragged into it? Since it did, I’ll give you my opinion….these tiny pools get disgusting because too many people’s sunblock washes off into the water, making it cloudy and gross. They don’t drain and refill the water enough.
Chicago’s “food culture” is nuts. The cognitive dissonance among the Obama-voting foodies is incredible. They want to eat and blog about specialty cheeses, wines, and eat fish/meat/veg sourced from all over the globe, flown here on airplanes that burn tons of jet fuel, they even want to drink fresh water flown in from another continent! Meanwhile 50 million American people are using SNAP and WIC and LINK cards, and every Leftwinger wants to go to a Gold Coast fundraiser for a food bank or homeless shelter, and consume more of the expensive food and drink. Oh, the narcisscism….I see this first hand when I party with my good buddies the Landan twins and the Josh-and-Rachel crowd.
People in this country don’t need “more” food… is anyone, I mean ANYONE starving to death unwillingly here besides kids who’s parents ate all their food?
I don’t think I’m superior to anyone else. I’m constantly getting criticized for my diet…even by the lunch ladies in my company’s cafeteria. I always have to smile and joke along with them, but it’s annoying. I don’t openly criticize other people for what they eat. I like fairly basic foods and could eat the same food every day for the rest of my life and be perfectly happy. I wish I liked eating mush or gruel since that would be inexpensive and I could use my food money for something more interesting.
“I’m constantly getting criticized for my diet…even by the lunch ladies in my company’s cafeteria.”
What are you eating? They’re criticizing you for fruit?
People in this country don’t need “more” food… is anyone, I mean ANYONE starving to death unwillingly here besides kids who’s parents ate all their food?
sonies: I know the whole story now. My GC on a renovation job of mine hired a white-guy to rip out some kitchen cabinets for a Rogers Park condo (I changed some of this info to protect identity, story is same). I get to talking with this nice guy about 50 years old, he speaks perfect English, has a fine IQ etc. Divorced of course, grown daughters who won’t talk to him, etc. don’t know those details as to why. He tells me he’s homeless and owns only a pick-up truck. He lives at one of the Journeys’ shelters, (not going to say which one): http://www.journeystheroadhome.org/landing/services/shelter-sites/ He sleeps there every single night and uses the food bank. He works for a living doing these menial jobs for cash pay. He does work.
So, I ask him what’s the deal? He says there is no chance that anyone in Chicagoland “goes to bed hungry” like the Leftists and Obama propagandists will say. There are so many food banks around, that one would have to be semi-retarded not to figure out where one is. Anyone can walk up to these food banks and get free food. That’s why they exist. He said working Mexicans with families will use these food banks with no problem, with no shame whatsoever. He also said that most of them drive new cars, and the money they make working goes towards housing and the car. A new, nice car is a sign of being in America to them. Again, they have no problem or shame augmenting their lives with free food from the food banks despite having jobs and new cars. Nobody asks questions when Mexicans walk into a food bank, everyone, because they’ve been brainwashed by the amnesty-enthusiasts and media/clergy/activists, just assumes they’re all destitute, starving, oppressed etc. It’s not true. They shouldn’t be buying new cars and also taking the food from food banks.
Secondly, I asked him who lives at the Journeys-shelters and sleeps there every night. He said it’s most bums, screw-ups, and addicts. He said that many of these people have either fairly, or via cheating, been placed on disability and they receive monthly stipends from the government. He said next that many of them, the addict type homeless, then take that disability check and go on a party binge with it. I ask increduously (and I like a good party too, so I’m interested in the details)…what do they do?? He says they go to a Motel 6 and binge on whatever substances they like (alcohol, cigs, all kinds of drugs…you get the picture), and they party for a few days, and then more or less the stipend is blown and they are back on the streets and sleeping overnight at Journeys, until the next month and it repeats. I’d like to hear if anyone who works at shelters/food banks can call any of this BS, because this is exactly what the guy told me.
Jenny,
I’m still trying to figure out your disinterest in food. I think you need to be exposed to some of the better food that’s out there so you can gain an appreciation. I’m guessing you didn’t get introduced to interesting food when you were a child, and also guess that neither of your parents was interested in food or cooking. It’s sad to think what you’re missing.
I do not work at a shelter, but I do live in Uptown, so I feel somewhat qualified to comment on your post, Helmet. 🙂
The govt check-funded drug purchase is not uncommon. Unfortunately, a fair number of the gangs that deal in my hood find substantial business on disability check day. Note that disability can be physical or mental, and it is not uncommon to see mentally ill people scoring drugs or being co-opted into the drug sale process.
Beyond the shelters, I am also surrounded by a number of mental institutions. Some of these (notably the massive Somerset House on Sheridan) have recently been shut down due to gross mismanagement, and the resulting decline in open air drug deals has been immediate and striking.
Anyway, I’m not sure I’d use the word “partying” to describe what’s going on in the Motel 6’s or in my alley.. One man’s party is another man’s attempt to escape demons I can’t fathom. Are some of these people gaming the system? Sure.
I still can’t get too bent out of shape about it. I haven’t walked a mile in their shoes and anyway, in my mind, there are worse injustices being funded with my tax dollars… namely at the top of the income ladder, rather than at the bottom.
I am much more tweaked by those people living in our local shelters and/or collecting govt checks who commit violent crimes. I’d rather pay for them to stay in jail longer… at least there they can’t hurt me or my neighbors.
Great post, Kball.
Well either way its a bunch of bullshit, you see ridiculous inflation at the grocery store for one reason… a shitload more people on god damn food stamps (up over 46 million people now!) so the stores can get away with raising prices so much because the money spigot is flowing freely… a hundred billion dollars a year and all the poor people are fat as hell, so fat in fact they have a ton more medical problems than us poor working stiffs who have to shell out 400 bucks a month for food, so not only do our insurance rates go up, our food costs go up too, not to mention my taxes going up to pay for this bullshit as well. Thanks you lazy assholes!
“[sonies rant]”
I thought it was all the fault of the chinamen. No?
Some of the “ridiculous inflation at the grocery store” can surely be linked to this past year’s late spring freeze and summer drought, no? I know the apple crop was pretty well devastated and as a result apples are about 30% more than they were last year. Also, since every last bit of processed food contains HFCS, the bleak corn crop means that processed food is more expensive.
Corn is another government manipulated commodity, don’t even get me started
I eat lots and lots of fruit and pasta. My previous boss used to always tell me I needed to eat protein and shake her head when she saw me eating. I only buy cookies from my office’s cafeteria and the cafeteria ladies call me “cookie monster.” If there’s a party at work and I don’t put cream cheese on a bagel, people ask questions and talk about how they could never eat a bagel without cream cheese.
According to my mom, I never enjoyed eating. The doctor told her I would eat when I was hungry and not to worry, so my family never pressured me to try new things.
A dear friend of mine is confined to a wheelchair. It never ceases to amaze me how many bums ask him for money when we’re out, and not just spare change. One healthy-looking bum had the nerve to ask for $20. When we ignored him, he started yelling at my friend saying, “I know you get a check!” My friend has also had various things stolen from him because these bums just assume that he’s a “freeloader” so it’s OK to steal from him.
Jenny – have you ever done the supertaster test?
“Well either way its a bunch of bullshit, you see ridiculous inflation at the grocery store for one reason… a shitload more people on god damn food stamps (up over 46 million people now!) so the stores can get away with raising prices so much because the money spigot is flowing freely… a hundred billion dollars a year and all the poor people are fat as hell, so fat in fact they have a ton more medical problems than us poor working stiffs who have to shell out 400 bucks a month for food, so not only do our insurance rates go up, our food costs go up too, not to mention my taxes going up to pay for this bullshit as well. Thanks you lazy assholes”
Appears Bob is rubbing off Sonies.
eerr rubbing off on Sonies
“People in this country don’t need “more” food… is anyone, I mean ANYONE starving to death unwillingly here besides kids who’s parents ate all their food?”
Wow. You really don’t get out much do you Sonies. LEAVE YOUR RICH NEIGHBORHOOD!
If you’re on SNAP (aka food stamps) you can’t feed your family for 30 days on that. The kids will be hungry (and the parents too.) That’s why there are 31 million kids that get free or subsidized breakfasts and lunches at school. Without school lunches, a LOT more kids would go hungry.
I have a friend with one child who is solidly middle class (two college degrees) but who would run out of money by the end of the month and would take her 3-year old to McDonald’s the last two days of the month for the dollar menu. I often sent her gift cards so she could buy food.
That’s regular America. Most people aren’t eating out at River North restaurants and clubs on a regular basis.
“Secondly, I asked him who lives at the Journeys-shelters and sleeps there every night. He said it’s most bums, screw-ups, and addicts. He said that many of these people have either fairly, or via cheating, been placed on disability and they receive monthly stipends from the government. He said next that many of them, the addict type homeless, then take that disability check and go on a party binge with it. I ask increduously (and I like a good party too, so I’m interested in the details)…what do they do?? He says they go to a Motel 6 and binge on whatever substances they like (alcohol, cigs, all kinds of drugs…you get the picture), and they party for a few days, and then more or less the stipend is blown and they are back on the streets and sleeping overnight at Journeys, until the next month and it repeats. I’d like to hear if anyone who works at shelters/food banks can call any of this BS, because this is exactly what the guy told me.”
I second Kball’s comments. Who would WANT to live like this? Does this sound fun to you Dan? Then go for it. This isn’t why I was put on this planet.
How sad for them. Getting the disability check and being addicted to drugs. What a PARTY. What a LIFE.
I know someone on disability for life in his thirties. He will never work a full time job again. Sounds like fun- right? But his life is, frankly, really sad. He’s bored. There’s nothing to do. Everyone else is at work. And the disability check is a pittance. It’s not like you’re living the high life on $1600 a month.
Again- who would WANT that life?
No one.
I don’t understand your envy for this life Dan.
As a side note, not all people with disabilities live on benefits. I know two legally blind guys who both have doctorates and earn a very comfortable living. Not all forms of disability leave one dependent on government support and not all disabled people have a sad life. In fact, I find both of the guys mentioned above much more interesting than most people I meet.
“Not all forms of disability leave one dependent on government support and not all disabled people have a sad life.”
I didn’t say they did. But Dan is talking about those who collect the disability check- not those who have disabilities and overcome them. Those who live on SSI don’t work. Who would want that life? Not me.
I challenge all of the people who say that those living on the government dole have it “easy” or are lounging around in their apartments in their silk pajamas to really walk in their shoes. They’re shopping with SNAP at the Dollar store.
“Who would WANT to live like this?”
Not any of us. My point was to tell the story about the shelter guy who says nobody goes “hungry” in Chicagoland because there are so many food banks around. Food is available. Sonies is right, our welfare types are obese slobs in many cases.
I was intrigued about his stories about the disability checks getting blown on those Motel 6 binge parties….I love a good party too! It’s like they have a Spring Break every month! trash a hotel room, get ripped & stoned, have some laughs…oh, but think of the hangover after their pittance is blown in a couple of days.
Meth has an awful hangover.
New York Times did an article recently regarding social security payments for parents of “disabled children”, noting that there’s a common scam (article reporting done in Appalachia) of “refusing to allow children to learn to read” so that kids can be labelled as mentally retarded and the parents can receive disability support checks. I’ve heard of this scam before, but the article delved into detail. These parents are actually denying their children an education, and literacy, so that they can collect an enhanced child-support check until kid is 18. Unbelievable.
“That’s regular America. Most people aren’t eating out at River North restaurants and clubs on a regular basis.”
no shit sherlock! most people (like nodody is) starving to death either, Like I said… who in this country is going hungry besides children who’s neglecting parents aren’t budgeting their fricking food funds properly? Have you seen people in poor neighborhoods? The obesity rate is ASTOUNDING, and sorry to say if you’re obese, you have no right to say you don’t have enough money to eat, because YOU DO, in fact you have way too much money to eat!
I have no issue with kids getting food from other sources, as their parents are oxygen theives, its the fat pieces of trash that complain about not having any food and deserve government handouts to pay for junk food, and it is a complete waste of tax dollars!
There are too many incentives built into the system to encourage people NOT to try to do better.
Mess up your life, drop out of school, become a baby mama by choice then it’s the cash for life plan for you: free housing, free university for your children (plus stipends), free healthcare, free food and income tax credits.
On the other hand, if you are working poor like I have been in the past, trying to scrape by on a low-wage job without benefits as a single person paying your own way, there is no help out there for you.
I have a friend who grew up in the projects in Chelsea and even he says there is rife abuse.
His mom who still lives there buys a brand new set of furniture EVERY YEAR and tosses the old one.
“I challenge all of the people who say that those living on the government dole have it “easy” or are lounging around in their apartments in their silk pajamas to really walk in their shoes. They’re shopping with SNAP at the Dollar store.”
Sabrina – I saw some of these walking the streets of Pullman in their PJs!
They weren’t silk though.
They were fleece.
I’ve observed that these types typically love wearing their PJs outside!
“Have you seen people in poor neighborhoods? The obesity rate is ASTOUNDING, and sorry to say if you’re obese, you have no right to say you don’t have enough money to eat, because YOU DO, in fact you have way too much money to eat!”
There’s no grocery stores in many poor urban neighborhoods so they buy doritos and donuts. Sad to say. Walgreens is trying to change this by offering fresh fruit in many of their stores. But there is simply too much processed food in many urban neighborhoods.
Sonies- have you ever been to the rural areas and seen the poor there? The only reason people aren’t starving in America (although something like 1 in 6 kids goes to bed hungry) is because of government programs.
Architect: a lot changed in the disability system once mental disabilities were recognized. A lot of adults with “depression” suddenly could qualify. That’s why we’re at record levels of people on disability.
Also, FWIW, I shop at the dollar store.
I got a lot of stuff for my in-town at The Dollar Tree.
Working for peanuts teaches you to respect money and stretch it out.
Even if I had a million dollars in the bank I would still shop there.
“I thought it was all the fault of the chinamen. No?”
“Appears Bob is rubbing off Sonies.”
I’m guessing the chinamen and the high-on-the-hog-eating poor folks have put sonies on teh wrong sides of some trades. Hence the angry bob and danhofer impersonations. But hang on, is sonies even allowed to make trades or is he more of a personal shopper advisor type? Does he even have an mba like bob (ze says it’s not much but it’s all bob has)? Or maybe he doesn’t need it, just needs to pass one of those exam thingys. And where did danhofer go to school again? Please clarify.
“Mess up your life, drop out of school, become a baby mama by choice then it’s the cash for life plan for you: free housing, free university for your children (plus stipends), free healthcare, free food and income tax credits.”
It certainly doesn’t help that various religions and/or family value organizations impede sex education, birth control and abortion availability.
“New York Times did an article recently regarding social security payments for parents of “disabled children”, noting that there’s a common scam (article reporting done in Appalachia)…”
I love the NY Times, it’s so anti-white racist and Leftist. Leave it to these people with no journalistic ethics to paint scamming as a white problem. Just like all the TV commercials that show white criminals and black guys at the head of the conference table as the boss. Gee….let’s discuss disability scamming in the USA, but let’s dig and find, use, and exploit a white example. Who was the author of that piece? Probably some typical Leftist deceitful hack. That paper has really gone downhill as a paper of record, who can trust it and its employees?
“It certainly doesn’t help that various religions and/or family value organizations impede sex education, birth control and abortion availability.”
How stupid is that comment? Blaming illegitimate births, STDs, AIDS, deadbeat dads, welfare moms, etc. on religion which tries to help people from falling into these traps? Icarus your ilk has had the run of the system for 40-plus years now, pushing religion to the sidelines, and guess what? Your pathertic ideas are failures. Poverty, illegitimate births, single moms, welfare, food stamps, deadbeat dads, drop out rates, gangs, etc are all at historic highs, and you want to blame religious people who actually care about others? What a joke. Abortion and contraception seem to making the stats worse, not better, you couldn’t even refute that one.
the statement above by “hlmethofer” at 9:27am has got to be one of the most ignorant ever posted at CC
“There’s no grocery stores in many poor urban neighborhoods so they buy doritos and donuts.”
Maybe Spike Lee or Tatrantino could make a movie and prominently show an actor like Jamie Foxx, Denzel and some other negroes in the South buying some vegetables, cutting them up, and making a healthy vegetable soup for less than $5, maybe they could even show a black hero buying some bread and meat and feeding his children. No, we get Django instead.
“Abortion and contraception seem to making the stats worse, not better, you couldn’t even refute that one.”
I’m fairly confident that if your mother had utilized either, the world — and the stats — would be much better.
“There’s no grocery stores in many poor urban neighborhoods so they buy doritos and donuts.”
It’s capitalism. There are lots of drugs, liquor stores and corner marts and fast food. Nobody wants to buy fresh veges and cook up a soup for less than $5 so there are no grocery stores that sell it.
Look helmet’s main fault here has been his antisemitism; the anti-diversity and anti-immigrant standpoints are mainstream in many parts of the country and represent most of the electorate that voted romney, which the last time I checked was more than 50,000,000 people.
Jack: His comment at 9:27 was not ignorant. You may not agree with his opinions and that’s your choice, but it’s not ignorant. It’s poignant, and the only response you have is to call it ignorant.
No, HD, it IS ignorant. Many of the ‘stats’ he lists are NOT at ‘historic highs’. Furthermore, there is no evidence that family planning leads to higher “poverty, illegitimate births, single moms..;.” etc…. rather it leads to exactly the opposite outcome.
This is indeed the definition of ignorance.
Not sure what your obsession with me is DZ but you can speculate all you want, I find it somewhat amusing…
“(something like 1 in 6 kids goes to bed hungry)”
How did they come up with that number? What growing child isn’t hungry? My nieces and nephews eat constantly and are always talking about how hungry they are
No Jack, they are at historic highs:
Poverty – Look at food stamp usage, medicaid usage – are at all time highs. Google it.
Illegitimate births – Look at unwed birthrates. Also at all time highs. Google it.
Drop out rates: These are actually at lows right now. So helmet was wrong.
Then he continues on to blame the lack of religion and liberals for this. That’s an opinion as to the cause of the problem. Simply saying “you’re ignorant” is a child like response.
I can’t believe I’m defending helmet, but I sometimes life ends up that way.
HD, maybe you need to re-read my post…
“the anti-diversity and anti-immigrant standpoints are mainstream in many parts of the country and represent most of the electorate that voted romney, which the last time I checked was more than 50,000,000 people.”
The (Y2)Know-Nothing party would have 30mm+ members??!?!?!!
Oh, and also:
“his antisemitism [is] mainstream in many parts of the country and [may even] represent most of the electorate that voted romney”
is also true. So, you’re saying that one part of his spittle is okay, because (perhaps) 30mm voters agree with him, but another part is reprehensible bc “only” (perhaps) 20mm voters agree with him?
No Jack, you read what Helmet wrote. he said ” Icarus your ilk has had the run of the system for 40-plus years now…” He’s blaming liberals. Liberals who, among other things, are “pushing religion to the sidelines,” because Icarus blamed religion for the lack of family planning.
Which is interesting is that while religion has less influence than ever before, and church attendance is declining precipitously, Icarus blames religion for restricting family planning (As if they ever mattered to anyone these days anyway).
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/139575-7-startling-facts-an-up-close-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html
So jack, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension and rhetoric.
so much awesome:. jenny’s nickname is cookie monster. miu miu is back in posting form, if not walking, quickly. milkster likes dollar tree too, and I now am aware of the landan twins. plus i can take the supertaster test.
all this entertainment without groove or gringo. my mind is blown.
I’m just saying anon (tfo) , the fact that you find them reprehensible shows one set of values that is polar opposite to what millions upon millions of others of your fellow americans believe. Your views are in no way morally superior or ‘better’ than those who are anti-immigration and anti-diversity.
Helly-D,
I read The Times purely for entertainment and fluff and nice photos, not for fact.
I realized a few years ago that their Travel pieces were written by some schmo at a desk in NY with access to Google.
And their Real Estate pieces are always favorable to large developers who provide massive ad revenues.
HD, sigh, the point is that family planning was being blamed for his list of ills… ignorance.
” Icarus blames religion for restricting family planning ”
I did qualify my statement by saying “various” as in, not all. And I said it “doesn’t help the problem I never said it was the root cause nor the biggest contributor to the problem.
Welcome to PoliticoSocialChatter. The only site on the internet that aims to spark important political and social pissing contests using real estate listings as the catalyst.
“Not sure what your obsession with me is”
Not really w you specifically (don’t get me wrong, you are a solid CC character) so much as your occupation, which, as I’ve noted before, I sincerely don’t understand. But if you can’t explain, maybe will have to ask laura lou instead. I think she’s also a financial advisor–I’m scared to ask what she thinks about the high on the hog poor folks given her food budget.
Let me just say there are a lot of bad ones out there that add no value and are nothing more than annuity or Mutual Fund or “planning” salespersons, but there are also many good ones that do good things for folks at low costs, our group, we work hard to add value to people’s lives. Thats about all I’m gonna say about my job, because frankly, people that talk about their jobs all the time are douchebags.
“So jack, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension and rhetoric.”
jack is very unintelligent.
I’m not overly religious by any means, but you’d have to be a moron not to see the collective wisdom contained in it for ordering a society. Morally/wisdom-wise it’s marched forward through the centuries just like science has done also. Yet, the secular fundamentalists want to turn our morality back to the level of stone age, and we’re seeing the depraved results and statistics.
“Many of the ‘stats’ he lists are NOT at ‘historic highs’.”
Care to point out which ones? Before the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the illegitimacy rate for blacks was more than half of that it is today (70%). The Civil Rights Act just allowed blacks to return to their natural state, and no longer try or remain assimilated to American or Western Civ norms. The 70% illegitimacy rate is shocking proof of it. Abortion rates have to be at least twice as high, if not higher than 1960. Even with the advancements in science, STD rates are higher than 1960. I’ve not against contraception, but nobody can prove that it’s reduced abortion levels. It hasn’t.
“Look helmet’s main fault here has been his antisemitism; the anti-diversity and anti-immigrant standpoints are mainstream”
What? why do you care to single them out for special treatment? Let’s just stick with the truth, whether it’s white trash, frat boys, NW side archie bunkers, cops and fireman. Anyone doing things that are deleterious, let’s just have some fun and point it out. For you to suggest the the diversity or immigrant demographic groups are OK to discuss, but that Jews are somehow exempt from basic analysis is pretty lame stuff. I see more anti-religion and anti-Christianity around these days than “anti-semitism” anyway. Ever read the hate on the Huff Post whenever there’s an article about religion? It’s like they throw some slanted article up there as bait, and then it’s open season on the comments with ferocious hate spewed on that website. I think anti-Christianity is openlyencouraged on that site, even baited by the blog authors’ posts, but anti-semitism is not allowed, so it’s easy to see who is hated more in America. HD: you’re still evolving, but not quite enlightened yet.
meant to say: “less than half of what it is today”
“the fact that you find them reprehensible ”
HD, *you* noted that the anti-semitism is a problem.
And, anyway, tehHof should, if consistent, bash you for the view that that are not any views which are, in fact, both morally superior AND ‘better’. He certainly has made clear that he thinks his anti-semitism, anti-(certain)-immigrant, anti-diversity worldview is *provably* superior, morally and generally. It’s the whole meat of his rants.
hof: ” HD: you’re still evolving, but not quite enlightened yet”
Dude, he’s stated *in this thread* that he is a moral relativist. He’s more “liberal” than most of the “liberals” you pillory here. I don’t go in for that moral relativism shite, either–I agree with you that some things are objectively superior, I just disagree about what, why, when, how and how much.
I don’t want to insert myself in the middle of this, but there is good evidence that low cost or free contraception does reduce teen birthrates and the abortion rate. This seems like such a no brainer that I’m always shocked when people resist making contraception widely available.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/04/free-birth-control-teen-birth-abortion/1613691/
OK, I volunteer to pay for free contraception for Southbound’s daughter in college, so she can go ahead and have a really good time and the guys won’t have to worry about thing. It’ll all work out, contraception is perfectly safe and it encourages great behavior!
“I have a friend with one child who is solidly middle class (two college degrees) but who would run out of money by the end of the month and would take her 3-year old to McDonald’s the last two days of the month for the dollar menu. I often sent her gift cards so she could buy food.”
you think she’s “solidly middle class” yet can’t feed her kid the whole month?
she’s leading a lifestyle she can’t afford. that’s what she’s doing. instead of sending her money you should tell her to adjust her lifestyle. you’d be doing her more good. maybe cut the cable or cell phone, or live in a cheaper place, shop for cheaper clothes, et al before she decides she has to go to McDonald’s to feed her family.
what a sad joke.
“I challenge all of the people who say that those living on the government dole have it “easy” or are lounging around in their apartments in their silk pajamas to really walk in their shoes. They’re shopping with SNAP at the Dollar store.”
i’m not saying anyone has it easy. i’m saying giving people handouts, simply because they’re poor, distorts incentives. it subverts the laws of nature. it rewards sloth and discourages responsibility. most tragically, over time it destroys families and builds up government. this is where we are today.
it creates a whole class of people who, in times of trouble, cry to the government. because they have no family. they have no extended community of true friends. help me! help!
i challenge you to wake the hell up. we live in a world that has already consumed its future. the economic system we’re force fed has borrowed beyond its means. it has not only brought forward consumption…but population growth!
these people simply would not exist with sound money. people are so damn blind to the cause. Decades upon decades of the war on poverty in this country and seemingly educated (propagandized) people actually think we need to fight harder. spend more! more programs!
but it is the system that creates this poverty! you can’t fight poverty within the very system that creates it.
the unfortunate truth is this system is doomed to failure. but it will be anything but easy. it will be dragged out for decades more on the backs of those who would rather not provide for those who can’t be provided for, and who wouldn’t exist without the government teet they were raised on.
so i don’t need to walk in their shoes. i’m just a couple generations removed from people who already have. but now i’m supposed to apologize for that. what’s been passed down to me isn’t fair. the work of generations before me takes a back seat to the misfortune of the poor, likely fatherless soul, who needs a SNAP card to eat.
no thanks.
I completely agree w/ old_hickory. I wish I could like that more than once.
amen old hickory….. well said.
And FYI, eating at McDonalds is MUCH more expensive than preparing your own food, perhaps thats why she’s “short” on funds every month?
So are you suggesting the government just immediately discontinue all social welfare programs and let a mass die-off occur?
How do you suggest ending these programs? The government just decided that “starting in Feb 2013, no more gov’t checks will be mailed” would not exactly end well.
Fred – “So are you suggesting the government just immediately discontinue all social welfare programs and let a mass die-off occur?” No. That is typical hysteria inducing drivel spouted by partisan hacks who can’t see there is something wrong (or won’t admit it because it would be bad for their careers). Its similar to the “death panels” right wing extremists said would tell old people when they were going to die (when it was really just end of life counseling). There is graft in the social safety net and the more comfortable we make it to not be looking for work and trying to provide for yourself the more people will chose that option. There is a balance between providing nothing and providing everything – right now we are much close to the providing everything side of things. Oh – and just to make things clear – I also think tax rates should go up (Bush cuts expire) for everyone so I’m not just talking my own book here.
“So are you suggesting the government just immediately discontinue all social welfare programs and let a mass die-off occur?”
Why not just make them work for their benifits. Right now many evaluate do I work at a McDonalds or to do I collect welfare and do side jobs for cash.
“let a mass die-off occur”
That’d be a ‘first up against the wall’ die-off? Or some other kind?
The government should pay poor people NOT to have kids. Instead, they get rewarded for having them. I can’t afford kids, so guess what, I don’t have them. Remaining childless is extremely easy. I experimented with some tax calculators and found out that if I had a child, I wouldn’t have to pay federal tax. Since I don’t have a child, I have to pay the normal rate. I don’t get credits and subsidies. It’s ridiculous. Why are these people rewarded? Why shouldn’t they pay their fair share? Their kids suck resources from society and yet the parents are rewarded. If we eventually need more people in this country, we can carefully select highly skilled immigrants who won’t be a drain on society.
“So are you suggesting the government just immediately discontinue all social welfare programs and let a mass die-off occur?
How do you suggest ending these programs? The government just decided that “starting in Feb 2013, no more gov’t checks will be mailed” would not exactly end well.”
i’m not suggesting any solution. because there is no solution at this point. like being halfway over a waterfall and trying to figure out how to crawl back up. we’re going to hit the bottom. only question is when.
the quote from Cocktail sums it up best:
“everything ends badly, otherwise it wouldn’t end. ”
we’re long past the tipping point where the problem can be fixed.
this is all just history repeating.
LBJ’s Great Society was great for two things, government expansion and government dependency
“Why not just make them work for their benifits”
Distrots the labor market. Need to have “jobs” that are not currently done by anyone. Like hand-weeding the parks, collecting wind-born trash, spear-hunting asian carp in the river, etc.
“That is typical hysteria inducing drivel spouted by partisan hacks who can’t see there is something wrong (or won’t admit it because it would be bad for their careers)”
I just don’t understand how if there are people that are truly dependent on the government checks, that if you take them away they don’t end up destitute and on the street. This would be the exact same outcome as someone who is living paycheck-to-paycheck losing their job. No money = no rent or food = living on the street. Please explain to me how losing your income doesn’t end poorly because I seriously don’t understand.
“i’m not suggesting any solution. because there is no solution at this point.”
So I guess there is nothing further to discuss on the topic… So how do you like the Bears this Sunday?
The only thing more pathetic in this thread than all the economics, sociology, anthropology and public policy blathering by folks with little to no advanced educations or professional experience in those fields is all the complaining by straight, white, non-disabled, natural born American citizen men (lots of presumptions there, I know, but no one has expressed otherwise) about poor folks – particularly illegal immigrants and racial minorities – taking and remaining dependent upon “handouts” like food stamps, etc. Actually, if you were born a straight, white, non-disabled (and have remained so) male in this country, and you find yourself dwelling on all the folks who depend on welfare, pathetic is being generous.
“Like hand-weeding the parks, collecting wind-born trash, spear-hunting asian carp in the river, etc.”
Works for me. Once someone has to work for what they are given, then they realize “do I work for this really crappy wage” or to I find something better. I would be good with paying for them to receive an education as well.
I go with my husband to do volunteer work in third world countries, once you see how the poor really live you realize there isn’t real proverty in this country. I don’t see people here with bloated stomachs and dying in the street of malnutrtion. Over there you see people working 12 hours a day, and they can barely feed there family. A treat is buying a couple bottles of coke and sharing them with their family. Maybe once a week tops. Go to a construction site in China as see worker living in storage containers, or the UAE where construction workers live in barrack housing are bused to the construction site, given a crappy bagged lunch to eat. They have to save the bag to shit in because they are no toilet facilitities. You see the site litter with the used bags and a couple workers will collect them at the end of the day.
The poor work they don’t sit around collecting a check.
You know the saying “Give a man a fish and he won’t starve for a day. Teach a man how to fish and he won’t starve for his entire life.” We better start teaching people how to fish again.
anonny – I think my tax dollars going to support these ridiculous benefits gives me a right to an opinion.
“So are you suggesting the government just immediately discontinue all social welfare programs and let a mass die-off occur?”
That’s not going to happen.
And for the retort of ‘death panels’? Bring them on! I’ll be the first to pull the plug on each and every boomer who is wheeled into the hospital for the upteenth time, bleeding medicare dry for all its glory.
“complaining by straight, white, non-disabled, natural born American citizen men (lots of presumptions there, I know, but no one has expressed otherwise) about poor folks”
Annoy, I take offense to your comment as I am not white, was not born in this country and am not male.
“spear-hunting asian carp in the river”
Yummy..
“You know the saying “Give a man a fish and he won’t starve for a day. Teach a man how to fish and he won’t starve for his entire life.” We better start teaching people how to fish again.”
I prefer– Build a man a fire and he’s warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he’s warm for the rest of his life.
Specific requirements vary from state to state, but federal law requires that welfare recipients find work within 2 years of beginning benefits and limits total lifetime benefits to five years. The myth of the welfare queen just will not die, however. With respect to SSDI, I agree there is some abuse in the system and it definitely could use reform, much like Medicare. But my own personal preference is to tolerate a few bad apples rather than shut out the deserving who have paid into this sytem for years. No system is perfect.
“The only thing more pathetic in this thread than all the economics, sociology, anthropology and public policy blathering by folks with little to no advanced educations or professional experience in those fields is all the complaining by straight, white, non-disabled, natural born American citizen men (lots of presumptions there, I know, but no one has expressed otherwise) about poor folks – particularly illegal immigrants and racial minorities – taking and remaining dependent upon “handouts” like food stamps, etc. Actually, if you were born a straight, white, non-disabled (and have remained so) male in this country, and you find yourself dwelling on all the folks who depend on welfare, pathetic is being generous.”
here comes the race card, distortion, and calling the other side “pathetic”. i’d call that the trifecta.
about the type of rebuttal i’d expect.
i’m not against the poor. i’m against the irresponsible. and a system that rewards it.
one of my great grandfathers mined coal. another delivered heating oil. my dad’s dad worked his way up to a management level for a major retail chain only to be laid off and have his pension removed right before retirement. my dad worked his way through college. first in his family.
yet you quickly pit me against the poor. i come from the poor. proud, working poor who didn’t blame someone else for being poor. who didn’t expect a damn handout for their “misfortune”. who didn’t know they were poor.
and then you somehow equate being white, straight, non-disabled, and a natural born American citizen as having anything to do with this. you even go a step farther by implying you’re dealing with a racist. or someone who just has a problem with immigrants and minorities.
whether consciously or not, you use such a labeling tactic as a way to divide those who agree with me. people who aren’t white men. who aren’t straight. who are disabled. who aren’t natural born American citizens.
but they’re out there. and they know bullshit when they see it. some days i like to waste my time just pointing it out.
I have no problems helping those in need the problem is that we have a large underclass/subclass of citizens and illegal immigrants, like the Irish in England during the 1700-1800’s, who live off the dole, barely work, and are intoxicated and on meth or crack all day. This subset of people is growing larger by the day. The middle class isbeing squeezed, and you’ve either moved up, like me, or down, like most others. The upper classes is growing too, and so are the lower classes, at the expense of the middle class. Along with joining the lower class comes bad societal traits, unwed mothers, child support court, high consumer debt loads, gangs, absent parents, etc. The upper classes move to places like whitetopia to avoid teh poor lower classes. It’s industrial age Britannia all over again.
hey mh – ur info is WRONG. It’s cash benefits – that’s straight up cash – that can’t go on for more than two years. But the rest of the freebies goes for many many years. Food stamps, subsidized housing, obama phones, medicaid. I pay for my own housing, food, cell phone and health insurance and the total value is in the 10’s of thousands a year. Sure you can have 2 kids and be a single mom. I ain’t sayin’ it’s easy, but health care, phones, food and housing is taken care of. Maybe they should have thought about that before gettin’ knocked up by some dude who can’t/won’t hold a job or take care of his family. 50% of all kids today born out of wedlock, and lookin’ stright at the government to take care of them from cradle to grave.
Some people on this thread have mentioned “cash for life” or something similar. That’s not correct and I am merely pointing that out. I can’t speak to Obama phones. With respect to SNAP, Illinois does request evidence that you are actively seeking employment if you are not working. Given the current economic conditions I’m not sure how rigorously that’s enforced.
“my dad’s dad worked his way up to a management level for a major retail chain only to be laid off and have his pension removed right before retirement. my dad worked his way through college. first in his family. yet you quickly pit me against the poor. i come from the poor. proud, working poor who didn’t blame someone else for being poor. who didn’t expect a damn handout for their ‘misfortune’.”
Your grandfather was in management and your dad was college educated…yet you “come from the poor. proud, working poor”? Gee whiz. My grandfather worked at a steel plant and so did my non-college educated dad. I guess I must come from the “super poor. the proud, working super poor.”
“Given the current economic conditions I’m not sure how rigorously that’s enforced.”
I konw people on SNAP and all you have to do is go in and tell then how much you make. You don’t need to show them anythying. It’s like voter registration, they just let anyone sign up, with no proof or verificaiton. if you make too much money they’ll deny you benefits, but you don’t have to prove how much you make. It’s more like they have to turn you down b/c everyone qualifies, as opposed to qualfiying before receiving benefits.
anonny,
do you always hold accomplishments against people or did i just catch you on a bad day?
no promotions in your family?
Then those offices are not complying with the application requirements. You have to provide paperwork substantiating your expenses and income during your intake interview.
http://www.illinoislegalaid.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.dsp_content&contentID=5003&print=yes#cq5
“those offices are not complying with the application requirements.”
afaik, there’s no verification of free/reduced lunch, tho. And the extent of the cash economy makes it easier to qualify for snap–family of 4 can have an annual ‘reportable’ gross income of almost $30k (a small amount in metro Chi, but not so much in many parts of downstate) and qualify.
There will always be a certain amount of fraud in any social welfare system. The question is whether you are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. I’m all for stricter auditing / enforcement, but I don’t think it’s worth doing away with the entire system because homdelete “knows people” abusing it.
Any suggestion for this guy to get out of his poverty cycle? He’s doing everything “right”, yet keeps getting nowhere.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-12/mcdonald-s-8-25-man-and-8-75-million-ceo-shows-pay-gap.html
mh, its not just the fraud in the system, its the multi-generational use of the system. Why are there 1,2, and 3 generations utilitizing these programs. My fear we are becoming a society of dependants.
“Any suggestion for this guy to get out of his poverty cycle? He’s doing everything “right”, yet keeps getting nowhere.”
Education
mh, I never said “throw it away” but the system is HUGE right now. Half of all children in America are on food stamps at some point in their lives. We make more food in this country with industrial ag than any other country on the face of the earth that has ever existed, yet, 1/6 people in the country have government food aid. It’s absurd, it’s like the days of the Romans, with bread and circuses. The Romans were all granted a wheat allotment, but they became too lazy to even bake their own bread, and demanded the government bake their bread for them. Yes the practical difficulties of a wood burning stove in an urban area, I know, I know, but it’s a symbol of a larger problem. That problem being the government giving away the treasury to secure votes. It’s a sad state of affairs.
I’m not so naive as to say “everyone should go out and work for their food” and expect it to happen, but the problem has morphed into this monstrosity where parents are no longer expected to feed their own children, but instead rely on the federal government to give grants to local school districts to feed the children breakfast, lunch, and often dinner.
IL is the largest pumpkin producing state in the country, WI is one of the largest diary states in the country, we have large indust. ag farms all over the state, including NW IL which grows all sorts of corn, soybeans and other plants; and yet with all this food abundance, it’s become a matter of the state to give free away food to a sixth or more of the population. It’s the government buying votes. Here’s free food, vote (D)
“Any suggestion for this guy to get out of his poverty cycle? He’s doing everything “right”, yet keeps getting nowhere.”
Here I’ve got another one, get a truck drivers license and move to Williston North Dakota, you will then have a opportunity to make over a 100k a year.
You wanna know how hard it is to get food stamps? Its as difficult as hitting a submit button on the internet once every 2 weeks
“We make more food in this country with industrial ag than any other country on the face of the earth that has ever existed, yet, 1/6 people in the country have government food aid.”
I don’t understand your point. How is producing an abundance of food related to receiving government aid? Are you trying to argue that excess pumpkins and cheese should be given directly to the hungry instead of food stamps?
“do you always hold accomplishments against people or did i just catch you on a bad day?”
Not at all. I admire peoples’ accomplishments. I just don’t dwell on other peoples’ failures (be they self-inflicted, parent inflicted, a ramification of slavery or legal discrimination, the result of mental illness, the PTSD of veterans, etc.), especially in light of the fact that their receipt of wellfare benefits is a drop in the budgetary bucket (except for health care coverage).
“no promotions in your family?”
The only promotions that matter are mine. My (well meaning) parents didn’t pursue educations or promotions until I hit the road at 18. And I didn’t receive a dime of welfare type benefits for the ensuing decade + of doing this and that and what not. Like your dad, I worked my way through college, then financed (heavily) a graduate education. Today, it’s not the “lazy welfare takers” who bug me; it’s more the folks (most of whom have relied on public school systems, many of whom work government jobs, many of whom view Soc Sec as their primary retirement fund, most of whom are counting the days until Medicare eligibility, and most whom pay a fraction of the income taxes I pay) who think it’s the lazy welfare takers’ fault that we’re in the mess we’re in.
These able bodied young men, can go work on oil rigs or delivering cargo in a war torn country. There is plenty of money in those fields to be made by people who have little in the way of qualifications. These men would rather go to prison than actually work. It’s disgusting.
Then, there are people who actually need the help. My friend was severely injured while he was an active Naval officer. He gets a pension that allows him to live a middle class lifestyle. I don’t know what he would have done if he didn’t qualify for military benefits. He would have been left in dire poverty. This country should take care of those who are severely physically disabled. If my friend hadn’t been injured, I’m sure he would have been living an upper middle class lifestyle, paying taxes, etc. I want there to be a safety net for such people. The lazy people who have kids they can’t afford disgust me and the money given to them could help those who actually need it.
“Are you trying to argue that excess pumpkins and cheese should be given directly to the hungry instead of food stamps?”
well prices *should* be cheaper if there is so much excess supply, but thank the fed’s enabling of big banks to gamble with deposit money on commodity futures, and the farm subsidies for jacking up prices to unaffordable levels for the working poor
“Are you trying to argue that excess pumpkins and cheese should be given directly to the hungry instead of food stamps?”
Return to the days of government cheese!! And powdered milk!! And add pumpkin and pumpkin seeds!!!
Can we get government peanut butter, too?
What about government insects? Roaches are nutritious.
well, anonny, i’d imagine then we’d probably could have a civil discussion over an Obama beer summit. you seem more level headed to me now. i don’t mean to place all the blame at the feet of the welfare/food stamp recipient, etc., but that just happens to be the area of focus.
it’s about more than that. much more. tweaks within the system won’t cure what ails us. be like chopping off the arm of a mutant starfish that just regenerates that arm elsewhere.
you have to kill the host. fiat money controlled by private interests.
duty calls. must run.
Hilarious Jenny. I like your humor.
“Actually, if you were born a straight, white, non-disabled (and have remained so) male in this country, and you find yourself dwelling on all the folks who depend on welfare, pathetic is being generous.”
This is the kind of stupid mentality that’s led to the rot and our indefensible status quo, letting termites continue to eat away at the foundation. Actually, white non-disabled males that HAVE NOT focused on the slow marxism, is precisely why we’re in the mess we’re in.
see Mish’s blog: Please consider Julia’s mother: Why a single mom is better off with a $29,000 job and welfare than taking a $69,000 job.
“see Mish’s blog”
something Mish quotes:
“cumulative spending on means-tested federal welfare programs, if converted into cash, would equal $167.65 per day per household living below the poverty level”
Not hardly all the $$ spent on “means-tested federal welfare programs” goes to HHs below the property level. I’d be somewhat surprised if even 50% does.
I think in this holiday season we all need to thank the Baby Jeebus for the many, many things we are resentful for.
DeanHofer/notDan/Seigheilhelmutheadhofer posted at 9:27: “…Poverty, illegitimate births, single moms, welfare, food stamps, deadbeat dads, drop out rates, gangs, etc are all at historic highs, and you want to blame religious people who actually care about others? What a joke….”
The real joke and irony is that this ignorant cretin who spews hatred about everyone he considers inferior to himself (which appears to exceed 99% of humanity) considers himself one of those ‘people who actually cares about others’. It is a joke and ironic that this pos claims to be pro-life but selects the names of alleged women killer team as his screen name. And it is a joke and ironic that the lessons the members of religious order(s) attempted to teach him years ago never sunk in or influenced the way his pea sized brain functions.
I volunteer at a food pantry once a week. The majority of people coming through that door are elderly or mentally ill. People who cannot hold a job and cannot pay for food. There are a lot of Mexicans (and a whole lot of other nationalities) that come through as well but I believe the majority of the group is made of mentally ill (including ex-addicts) and the elderly.
Soylent Green is people!!!
Hey, everybody, Mish has a brand new post up:
Please consider Julia’s mother: Why a single mom is better off with a plow, a yoke of oxen and 40 acres of thawing tundra than taking a job in private equity.
“Actually, white non-disabled males that HAVE NOT focused on the slow marxism, is precisely why we’re in the mess we’re in.”
If we’re a marxist society- why do nearly 50 million people have no health insurance?
“Here I’ve got another one, get a truck drivers license and move to Williston North Dakota, you will then have a opportunity to make over a 100k a year.”
You don’t need to move to Williston to get a truck driving job. You can get that in any major city. They are desperate. There is a shortage. The pay ranges from $40k to about $100k. The trucking companies, though, say they can’t find enough people. You have to pass the 8 week (or is it 12?) driving course and that also costs money (which many of the trucking companies are willing to subsidize.) But people aren’t willing to put in the time and effort.
Or go work for ComEd. They’re always looking for good workers to climb up telephone poles. But no one wants to do that either. That’s hard work too.
“Why are there 1,2, and 3 generations utilitizing these programs. My fear we are becoming a society of dependants.”
It’s funny that you all think this is a recent problem. The academics at the big universities have been studying this cycle of poverty since Lyndon Johnson’s war on poverty in the 1960s. They have 4 or 5 decades of data now spanning several generations in the same family. It’s really fascinating stuff.
They started studying the poor in the 1960s and tracing who remained poor and why. Did anyone ever move up and out of it to the middle class?
Sadly- the answer is- very few. They’ve now studied three generations of the same families and most of those that were poor in the 1960s were poor in the 1990s and 2000s (and their children were too.) The studies they started under LBJ tracked families in both urban, suburban and rural areas in multiple states across the country.
Multi-generational use is NOT a new phenomena.
“Food stamps, subsidized housing, obama phones, medicaid.”
I wish people would stop calling them “obama phones” when they are “Reagan phones.” The program was started under Ronald Reagan. The poor got free telephone service (subsidized by other telephone users by a tax tacked onto each of their bills) because it was considered a health risk for someone not to be able to call 911 in case of an emergency. Now that fewer people have landlines, it has morphed into phone service through cellphones. It’s kind of like the program where the gas company can’t turn off your heat in the winter just because you can’t pay the bill.
Plenty of people move up from poverty. My dad’s parents moved out of poverty. My grandpa worked his way to nearly the top of the company he worked for, after starting at the bottom. I think having an in-tact family is the key to overcoming poverty. Of course, 60+ years ago, there was a lot more mobility. A person could start at the bottom of the company and move up if the person was talented.
I don’t care what you want to call these free cell phones but it’s a huge problem. When it was a landline people would only get one phone. Because its a cell and the people giving them out don’t check how many you have, there is such abuse of the system. There was a lady on the news with 30 phones in her purse. Can someone explain to me why we need to give out phones anyway? While we are at why not give out iPads, iMacs and cars, you know people need them.
You don’t need to move to Williston to get a truck driving job. You can get that in any major city. They are desperate. There is a shortage. The pay ranges from $40k to about $100k. The trucking companies, though, say they can’t find enough people. You have to pass the 8 week (or is it 12?) driving course and that also costs money (which many of the trucking companies are willing to subsidize.) But people aren’t willing to put in the time and effort.
Or go work for ComEd. They’re always looking for good workers to climb up telephone poles. But no one wants to do that either. That’s hard work too.
This is the problem we face in this country, so many lazy people.
“Plenty of people move up from poverty. My dad’s parents moved out of poverty. My grandpa worked his way to nearly the top of the company he worked for, after starting at the bottom.”
Nope. This is a myth. Biggest American myth there is. The study they’ve done since the 1960s tracks thousands of people and now their children and grandchildren. They actually send people door to door every other year to get the updated data. The number of people who move out of poverty is a very small number. Jenny, maybe your parents were in that group but it’s only a few percentage. And those that move up all the way from being poor to having the next generation being, say, upper middle class (making six figure incomes) is even rarer. It’s less than 1%.
If you are born in a housing project, the odds that you will ever get out are slim. Same for you children and your grandchildren. That’s what the actual data shows.
It’s not just lazy people its also felony convictions that prevent much of our underclass from obtaining meaningful employment. I know somebody who wanted to be a truck driver but a felony drug conviction with no jail time over 12 years ago prevented him from being hired.
“Nope. This is a myth. Biggest American myth there is. The study they’ve done since the 1960s tracks thousands of people and now their children and grandchildren. They actually send people door to door every other year to get the updated data. The number of people who move out of poverty is a very small number. Jenny, maybe your parents were in that group but it’s only a few percentage. And those that move up all the way from being poor to having the next generation being, say, upper middle class (making six figure incomes) is even rarer. It’s less than 1%.”
This is the problem with the system and how it rewards bad behavior. People that are born in poverty here can’t get out, but the the poor immigrant who comes he can.
“I know somebody who wanted to be a truck driver but a felony drug conviction with no jail time over 12 years ago prevented him from being hired.”
Did you consider helping him to obtain an expungement?
For the most part, poor people do things that make them poor and wealthy people do things that make them wealthy. Very few people who focus on education, avoid having out of wedlock children, and run ins with the law remain in poverty for more than one generation. Our government has mastered rewarding bad behavior and ultimately trapping the very people they are supposedly helping.
“My previous boss used to always tell me I needed to eat protein and shake her head when she saw me eating”
Last time I told a female employee that, I got fired… oh well…
…and Helmut.. happy Chanukkah!!
“This is the problem with the system and how it rewards bad behavior. People that are born in poverty here can’t get out, but the the poor immigrant who comes he can.”
Correlation does not = causation; it’s unclear to me whether “the sytem” is the underlying cause of the vicious circle, or whether this has always been the case and those in poverty just used to suffer a great deal more.
If I could try anything, I’d want to invest a lot more in public education and come up with some sort of universal day care program to help single mothers hold down jobs.
“Sadly- the answer is- very few. They’ve now studied three generations of the same families and most of those that were poor in the 1960s were poor in the 1990s and 2000s (and their children were too.) The studies they started under LBJ tracked families in both urban, suburban and rural areas in multiple states across the country.”
DUH!!!! Thats because LBJ’s “Great Society/War on the Poor” is an ENOURMOUS FUCKING FAILURE!
Giving people money to not work provides very little motivation to actually do hard jobs and create a work ethic! Talk about a bad example being set by the parents! Its no wonder that people born in projects can’t get out of poverty, yet hard working immigrants get out of poverty in one generation (see indian families that all live in one house and crank out a doctor or two in one generation) are these guys freeloaders? hell no, they work a ton of shitty jobs, like work at conveience stores, fast food, wherever they can get work and pool their resources to set up the next generation for success.
Why did so many of the poor who immigrated here over the last 200 years make their way out of poverty? Also poverty and “low paying jobs” are a joke here compared to the rest of the world
I quote “We live in a nation where “poor” people have TV sets and microwave ovens, where construction workers cheerfully spend $4 on a nonfat latte, where maids drive very nice cars, where plumbers take their families on vacation to the Caribbean. Recently I asked an acquaintance in Bombay why he has been trying so hard to relocate to America. He replied, “I really want to move to a country where the poor people are fat.””
Travel the world sometime and look at real poor people… Basically if you’re “poor” here in america, you have more wealth than 97% of the people on the earth. Yeah, they have it so rough, lets give them MORE tax dollars… that will solve everything!
“And those that move up all the way from being poor to having the next generation being, say, upper middle class (making six figure incomes) is even rarer. It’s less than 1%.”
Does being put in an orphanage (back when they existed) for a while bc mom couldn’t house or feed the kids count?
“where plumbers take their families on vacation to the Caribbean”
Plumbers are a skilled trade who do well almost everywhere with near-universal indoor plumbing except, apparently, Poland (the UK+Ireland stories of ‘polish plumbers’ right after the euro labor market liberlaization). That’s a bad example.
“happy Chanukkah!!”
isn’t that Chappy Chanukkah?
How are you, my friend?
Thats true, any country that has lots of indoor plumbing and running water isn’t that bad, but It wasn’t my example, it was from some blog
There’s a difference between growing up poor and growing up in poverty. It sounds like many of us have parents or grandparents who grew up poor by most definitions, but were able either to get an education or work their way up from the bottom of a company to get out of it. That is not the same as growing up in public housing, eating government subsidized food, attending crappy local public schools (in poverty). Someone who grew up where money was tight (clothes shared among siblings, no vacations, modest homemade meals, etc) has a far greater chance of getting out than the person who grew up in true poverty.
“”not the same as growing up in public housing, eating government subsidized food, attending crappy local public schools”
You really didn’t know anyone who got government cheese and powdered milk?
I know a lot of you commenting here must be devastated the socialist/marxist/commie Obama was relected… and you must be in fear that the demographics appear to be working against you… no fear! all you have to do is to relocate to one of those countries that is such a shining example of capitalism/ayn-randism/libertarianism, which would be…. uhhhh,… hmmmm… maybe, uh,…. no, uhhh… future independent state of Texas? hmm, OK, doesn’t exist YET… what about that shining example in history, which would be….uhh, hmmm, ….
Jack it isn’t just about welfare reform, we have a spending problem in this country. You wanted a list well here it is. The US ranks below Italy in fiscal responsibility.
Sovereign Fiscal Responsibility Index
Overall Rank Country Fiscal Space (% of GDP) Fiscal Path (# of years) Fiscal Governance (pts of 100)
1 Australia 168.2 40 65.9
2 New Zealand 163.6 38 68.5
3 Estonia 138.1 40 61.7
4 Sweden 153.7 40 59.0
5 China 184.9 40 49.4
6 Luxembourg 178.0 22 61.8
7 Chile 193.3 40 45.9
8 Denmark 153.1 34 54.7
9 United Kingdom 90.8 27 66.4
10 Brazil 102.3 39 56.9
11 Canada 106.0 39 51.5
12 India 97.3 40 56.3
13 Poland 94.9 31 58.0
14 Netherlands 92.7 12 72.3
15 Norway 171.6 22 47.9
16 Slovak Republic 107.7 33 50.9
17 Korea 124.9 40 27.5
18 Mexico 112.1 30 50.7
19 Israel 113.0 40 40.5
20 Slovenia 105.2 21 54.3
21 Austria 76.4 12 67.8
22 Finland 99.2 13 57.9
23 France 58.7 15 62.8
24 Spain 81.5 12 60.7
25 Germany 75.7 18 57.4
26 Belgium 42.3 8 61.2
27 Italy 17.8 7 59.2
28 United States 62.4 16 46.0
29 Hungary 53.2 12 46.1
30 Ireland 38.1 6 48.4
31 Japan* 49.0 5 47.2
32 Iceland** 17.1 20 20.2
33 Portugal 27.8 5 45.1
34 Greece 0.0 0 45.0
“If you are born in a housing project, the odds that you will ever get out are slim. Same for you children and your grandchildren. That’s what the actual data shows.”
My dad was born into a housing project. My grandparents got married right after the war and they were very young. Rents were too expensive since there was a housing shortage, so the government built “projects” for the returning veterans and their families. My grandma told me that to get in the parents had to be married.
They stayed at the housing project for about 4 years and moved on… The 1% number is hard to fathom. I can cite many examples of this.
It’s sad to say this, but I wonder if it has to do with race… my grandparents were white. I think that gave them a lot of advantages over others at the time. Perhaps the mindset of minorities has remained such that they don’t think they can pull themselves out of poverty (since this was the case in the past), whereas most whites are raised to believe they can do anything they want as long as they try hard.
hey oilc, again, missing my point… how about a list of countries ranked by taxes as a % of GDP
Jack, not sure what your point is? So if a country has a low tax as a percentage of GDP but has insurmountable debt to GDP ratio they are better off? I can pull out list list you asked for but it will be pretty much meaningless.
Ok Jack, I decided to pull up taxes and a percentage of GDP, see below
Kuwait 1.5
Equatorial Guinea 1.7
Libya 2.7
Chad 4.2
Iran 6.1
Nigeria 6.1
Yemen 7.1
Guinea 8.2
Central African Republic 7.7
Madagascar 10.7
Laos 10.8
Ethiopia 11.6
Guatemala 11.9
Hong Kong 13.0
China 17.0
United States 26.9
Now whats your point again?
Oilc, your Sovereign Fiscal Responsibility Index is suspect.
Note source of index: “The Comeback America Initiative, a deficit watchdog group funded by billionaire Pete Peterson, released an index, done with master’s students from Stanford University, that ranks the fiscal sustainability of countries around the world.”
I don’t necessarily question the data they analyzed, but rather the fact that it has been baked into a little morality play about “responsibility.” This is the special talent of hack economists. The rankings tell us nothing of the actual fiscal policies or crises that led to the deficits that put any given country on the list. Compare the cases of Iceland and Ireland. Remember how they responded to the banking crisis? One acted responsibly and the other did not. I’ll leave it to you to figure out which was which.
This thread has been a maundering exercise in moral preening, which is of utterly zero value in macroeconomic policy decisions. I would expect better from a bunch of Germans.
“Compare the cases of Iceland and Ireland. Remember how they responded to the banking crisis? One acted responsibly and the other did not. I’ll leave it to you to figure out which was which”
Number 30 and 32 on the index and why would we even want to discuss those countries?
“Number 30 and 32 on the index and why would we even want to discuss those countries?”
Good question. Why does every peckerwood deficit scold in Congress compare the USA’s plight to No. 34? Why even produce horseshit lists in the first place?
Good question. Why does every peckerwood deficit scold in Congress compare the USA’s plight to No. 34?
Agreed. I was going to start another diatribe but I will leave it at that. Its time for the weekend.
Nonchatterer, I forgot one thing……. loved the baby jebus line!
oilc, if that list doesn’t tell you something, and who you also left off, you really need to reexamine all of your ideology…
which one do you want to move to?
Jack,
My family owns property in HK, so that might be one of them.
well, please move to china…
“Jack,
My family owns property in HK, so that might be one of them.”
oh great, another America hating miumiu-clone… ever notice that white people never move to non-white countries en masse and/or permanently? But the vice-versa is always and everywhere true, turning everything into crap? Even the Jews who finally have their promised land after 2,000 years, all that whining and wailing, they still don’t want to leave and actually live there!
“Did you consider helping him to obtain an expungement?”
Yes, but you can’t expunge felonies which is part of the problem…
“invest in public education”
investing in public education means one thing: paying higher salaries to tenured and unionized teachers. That’s it. That’s a majority of what it means. So when people say “spend more money for schools” they are actually saying “pay unionized and tenured teachers higher salaries”. how does that improve public education?
” ever notice that white people never move to non-white countries en masse and/or permanently?”
Uh – this is a relatively recent phenomenon….think Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Gauls, ‘the great migration’ barbarian invasion, vikings, the founding of the united states, canada, south america….
nevermind my previous statement..
“perhaps the mindset of minorities has remained such that they don’t think they can pull themselves out of poverty (since this was the case in the past), whereas most whites are raised to believe they can do anything they want as long as they try hard.”
It’s the mindset of those minorities who never made an effort to integrate into greater America/suburbia. Blacks in the suburbs want the same things whites do. But many blacks that have remained on the south side basically believe in milking the system, or are the churchgoing type that do not believe this but turn a blind eye/tolerate their neighbors who do.
I like to google names of some news events. Recently there was a shooting at a gangsters funeral and they had a quote from the mom of one of the victims. After googling her she was in the news a few years ago after one of her other _six sons_ was involved in some crime (as victim or perp can’t remember) at a project. Six sons, no mention of number of fathers. At least six lives she brought into this world that she cannot economically support but depends on govt assistance for. And what happens, they fall into the crime trap and cause countless other incalculable damage to society beyond just the payments.
Are there exceptions? Absolutely. But they’re just that–exceptions. This cycle won’t change until the cradle to grave poverty safety nets are removed or modified. You don’t get free housing for being poor in most parts of the country, but in Chicago you do. And to think the murder count isn’t related to this (with a 20-year lag) is very foolish.
“Recently there was a shooting at a gangsters funeral and they had a quote from the mom of one of the victims. After googling her she was in the news a few years ago after one of her other _six sons_ was involved in some crime (as victim or perp can’t remember) at a project. Six sons, no mention of number of fathers. At least six lives she brought into this world that she cannot economically support but depends on govt assistance for. And what happens, they fall into the crime trap and cause countless other incalculable damage to society beyond just the payments.”
St. Columbanus on 71st Street. There was a gangbanger funeral and two people were shot coming out of the church at the funeral by other gangbangers. It’s massive church that was built by white immigrants that had little education and little money, but they still managed to built magnificent churches, hospitals, convents, orphanages, schools and charities without relying on taxation, wealth transfers, welfare, etc. Today that place is coupled with Sacred Heart of Winnetka as its sister church and relies on free food from the whites, and there’s a huge food bank on the property in the middle. The whole scene is exactly as Bob describes: “This cycle won’t change until the cradle to grave poverty safety nets are removed or modified.” Nothing I ever say is false.
Holy moly…..Bob and I are always right. Watch the video from the leftist msm “cbs evening news”.
http://sacredheartwinnetka.com/?page_id=442
We’ve already established that food banks are everywhere, there’s tons of them, easy to find, easy to get free food…. this is amazing. Why would the cycle change???
“each person gets 70 lbs. of food”…
we’ve got WIC, SNAP, Link…plus food banks like this. All the while the Winnetka people are brainwashed into thinking they are “helping” and easing their own consciences. It’s a tough call, whether this is necessary or complete BS. watch the video… why work? housing costs are minimal, you get a free Obamaphone, free food, food stamps….and little money they have goes toward booze, a dish/cable tv and I’ll bet none of them are missing the flat-screen TV.
“Brooks, who is pastor of New Beginnings Church of Chicago in the Woodlawn neighborhood and is considering a run for former U.S. Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr.’s vacant congressional seat, said about 500 people attended the funeral, including about 50 children. The church was so crowded that people were standing in the back.”
Can’t find the original article with the ma’s quote and google regarding a quote from her regarding another THUG SON a few years ago, but, almost as good:
600-1,200 people turned out for this Gangster Disciple gang members funeral. People on the north side have absolutely freakin’ idea what the south side is all about. As opposed to the POS thug Sherman was, they laud their gang-bangers down there as modern day folk heros.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/11/chicago-serenity-two-gangbangers-shot-at-funeral-one-dead/
“Brooks said he usually accompanies families out of the church after funerals, but had left by a side door for a radio interview.”
And Corey Brooks is presiding over these funerals & running for JJR’s congressional seat.
(600-1,200 is mentioned as attendance range as other articles indicate that “mourner” headcount).
Also what are these POS thugs doing being buried in Catholic churches? Are they regular attendees of the congregation? I have a feeling they have more pressing priorities on Sunday mornings.
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-12/mcdonald-s-8-25-man-and-8-75-million-ceo-shows-pay-gap.html
Thanks Chichow. Can’t wait to hear how lazy Johnson is or how he’s abusing the system by living at the Wilson Men’s Hotel or visiting a food pantry. Btw, to anyone inclined to complain about Johnson’s cheap rent, I encourage you to visit the WMH first.
Great argument Kball, two wrongs make a right. Maybe 10,000 Wealthy CEO’s get to milk the system which therefore makes it OK for tens of millions of poor people to do the same.
Johnson isn’t the problem (nor is his CEO). I personally know some people that abuse food pantries. White boy alkies who _don’t want to work_. There are absolutely no checks & balances on the system is the problem–for those that _don’t want to work_ it is far easier to get by in Chicago than smaller midwest cities.
Homedelete, I’m referring to the demonization of people who aren’t able to pull themselves up to Cribchatter expectations. The guy in the article’s not making $100k driving a truck or working his way up to the top of the company – see prior posts suggesting the options available to him – nor does he appear to be the hard-partying, lazy, schemer a quarter of the above posts are railing against.
“why work? housing costs are minimal, you get a free Obamaphone, free food, food stamps….and little money they have goes toward booze, a dish/cable tv and I’ll bet none of them are missing the flat-screen TV.”
Because your life is crappy even with the freebies???
Like I said- I doubt many here would want to lead the life that the poor are leading. They’re not buying the latest iPhone or have an iPad, you know? They’re not traveling. They’re not hanging out at the hottest restaurants. They’re stretching SNAP and going to food banks. Wow- where do I sign up?
“Nothing I ever say is false.”
Dan, you’re so delusional.
You know more whites are on SNAP than any other group? Just saying…
We have an output gap of almost $1 trillion, and all you morons can do is bitch about lazy poor people? But, please, regale us with more soup kitchen anecdotes; they’re withering, and make quite a case.
“oh great, another America hating miumiu-clone… ever notice that white people never move to non-white countries en masse and/or permanently? But the vice-versa is always and everywhere true, turning everything into crap? Even the Jews who finally have their promised land after 2,000 years, all that whining and wailing, they still don’t want to leave and actually live there!”
Hemet, you do realize that every white person in America either immigrated or is a decedent of an immigrate. And you do realize that the native population is not white.
Don’t you all realize how silly it is to argue about all this stuff when you should be spending your time by some beach somewhere, drinking a beer, and smiling at girls in lil bikinis?