Will This Renovated 2-Bedroom Duplex Down Re-Sell for the 2005 Price? 1034 W. Armitage in Lincoln Park
I’ve been watching this 2-bedroom duplex down at 1034 W. Armitage in Lincoln Park for months.
I was originally going to post on it last summer when it was bank owned but the realtor never put any interior pictures up with the listing.
And try as hard as I could to find a past listing, which would at least give us some sort of idea what it looked like inside, I couldn’t find anything in the public domain.
So I didn’t post anything on it.
The unit was bank owned and originally listed by the bank at $325,000 in July 2011.
At 1800 square feet, it was a duplex down with central air, washer/dryer and parking just down the street from the Brown line El.
Yet no one jumped on it even after several price reductions. All I could surmise was that there was a reason the agent put NO interior pictures up in the listing.
How bad was it?
It ended up selling for $250,000 in November 2011.
Lo and behold it has come back on the market just over 2 months later as a newly renovated unit.
It now has a new kitchen with the requisite dark cabinets, granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances.
The listing says there are new hardwood floors on the lower level, the loft and stairs. It also says there is an all new guest bath.
The two bedrooms are on the main level with the living area and kitchen on the lower level.
The unit also has cathedral ceilings.
It has come back on the market listed at $409,900 which is essentially what the property sold for in 2005.
Will the renovator get it?
Lance Kirschner at @Properties has the listing. See the pictures here.
You can also see it in person at the Open House on Sunday February 19: 12-2 PM.
Unit #A: 2 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, 1800 square feet, duplex down
- Sold in September 1995 for $342,500
- Sold in August 2001 for $366,000
- Sold in January 2005 for $410,500
- Lis pendens foreclosure filed in January 2010
- Bank owned in February 2011
- Originally listed in July 2011 for $325,000
- Reduced several times
- Sold in November 2011 for $250,000
- Just re-listed for $409,900 (outdoor parking space included)
- Assessments of $436 a month
- Taxes of $8398
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 17×12 (main level)
- Bedroom #2: 12×12 (main level)
- Loft: 9×10
- Living room/Kitchen: on the lower level
Does it come with an Audi TT now too?
I’m not sure I understand the floorplan. Looks cheesy/flipper new which is fine…
Still not a fan of living large in a basement even if you get to sleep upstairs. With the windows, even in the two story section of the living room it is clearly a basement.
nice place.
Living large…in the basement. Over $100,000 price, I’d want all my habitable rooms to be at-grade or higher. Note that the basement window sill height is too high for legal bedroom habitation, so I guess original developer put the living/dining/kitchen down there.
Clio must have bought this place; he drives an Audi Sports car.
Nice enough place.
Given the low interest rates, does it make sense to buy something at this price point (maybe not this particular unit) if your monthly payment is comfortable for you even though it means you aren’t paying down principal as quickly and paying more interest?
Do FHA loans match market interest rates?
“Given the low interest rates, does it make sense to buy something at this price point (maybe not this particular unit) if your monthly payment is comfortable for you even though it means you aren’t paying down principal as quickly and paying more interest?”
If the price risk does not concern you. The answer is yes to your first question. The 2nd one you should speak to Russ about.
“Clio must have bought this place; he drives an Audi Sports car.”
uhhh – lamborghini gallardo spyder – rosso vik.
“Given the low interest rates, does it make sense to buy something at this price point (maybe not this particular unit) if your monthly payment is comfortable for you even though it means you aren’t paying down principal as quickly and paying more interest?”
“If the price risk does not concern you. The answer is yes to your first question.”
Even if the price risk does not concern you (which is a big big if), I still think you should still be comfortable with a regular mortgage even if that’s not what you take out (but why wouldn’t you take out a 30 yr fixed right now?). Agree on talking to Russ.
Never seen a basement with cathedral ceilings before. How creative.
Original developer here.
In 1979 I gutted this 50-unit building into 8 single-floor and 28 duplex units. Sold 12 before the crash and rented 24 until the market came back in the mid-80s. You can see a walk down memory lane and a look around the building in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwODwqMAGXE
The 1034-A unit has a two-story living room fronting Armitage and Kenmore, with a nice-sized loft area overlooking the living room. The unit had great sex appeal to buyers, not so much to the people who lived in it.
The units were all electric – a mistake.
“Given the low interest rates” “why wouldn’t you take out a 30 yr fixed right now?”
DZ, agree – those 2 juxtapose mighty purty.
Credit Suisse is reporting today that home buying traffic in January (nationwide) was similar to the level when everyone was looking to buy under the tax credit in the spring of 2010.
Yet- this time there is NO government incentive.
Is the mild winter nationwide bringing out homebuyers who otherwise would be huddled indoors? Or is psychology starting to turn more bullish?
We’ll see how many of the lookie-loos actually result in contracts and then actual sales.
“Given the low interest rates” “why wouldn’t you take out a 30 yr fixed right now?”
To avoid putting a big downpayment. Over time the interest would overtake I suppose.
Ironic sidenote: wife and her friend bought similar condos in the same building. Wife put down 20%, friend did no money. Flash forward to today, friend’s mortgage is Fannie/Freddie backed and qualifies for all sorts of refi programs. Wife’s does not.
I’ll tell you why it took so long to sell the first time! It was impossible to show! I am a Realtor and tried to show this unit several times when it was listed as bank-owned. It was such a joke, every time I scheduled a showing they would give me a lock box code that either was in correct or one time the lock box wasn’t there. Each time I tried to show it and realized I couldn’t access the lock box, I’d call and leave a message or talk to someone who said they would get back to me. I never was able to get in to show it. I would love to know what the banks think about the agents who treat their REO listings this way. Surely it would have sold for more had it been properly exposed to the market.
Wow on the assessments, double wow on the taxes. I actually think that this layout is somewhat ok, but maybe it feels basementy in person. Why are the assessments so high?
Great location, but it’s really hard to see this going for much over $340k or so, given the carrying costs.
I should say “surely it would have sold more quickly and/or for more” had it been properly exposed to the market. I never got in it to see it so I really don’t know how well it was priced.
“To avoid putting a big downpayment. Over time the interest would overtake I suppose.”
What type of mortgage would you be taking out (I’m fairly ignorant about the options)? I tend to think you should not buy now, especially if you’re buying a new place and keeping your existing place(s), which is my impression. And I’m not such a bear that I think no one should buy now.
That reminds me of an REO I went to look at and the door handle was smashed off so nobody could get in. I think these bank REO realtards get kickbacks from small time developers like this guy to pay way below market value for some of these homes in good locations, thats the only explanation I can think of why someone who gets paid by the sale, wouldnt’ want to show a place if you are interested in it at the current market price.
“What type of mortgage would you be taking out”
I’m vetting brokers at the moment.
” I tend to think you should not buy now, especially if you’re buying a new place and keeping your existing place(s),”
Why do you say that?
that is one cheap/ugly remodel. I don’t believe we are in an environment that is conducive to flippers.
“Ironic sidenote: wife and her friend bought similar condos in the same building. Wife put down 20%, friend did no money. Flash forward to today, friend’s mortgage is Fannie/Freddie backed and qualifies for all sorts of refi programs. Wife’s does not.”
..and yet no one listens to me… 🙂
This is wayyy under priced. Seller needs to lift the offer to at least 500k quick!!!
“..and yet no one listens to me… ”
Don’t believe this site existed when I bought. didn’t know my wife when she bought. And Sonies won’t return the Deloran so I can go back and fix any of this. 😀
Icarus, FHA rates are typically lower than conventional (Fannie/Freddie). However, FHA mortgage insurance premiumson FHA are a bit higher than conventional mortgage insurance so the end payment will in all likelihood be very similar even though the rate is lower.
Unless there is a something that isn’t quite right with the file, there really is no reason to go FHA over conventional right now imho unless you really can’t put more down than 3.5% OR have a credit score ding because FHA doesn’t penalize you nearly as much as conventional mortgages.
The one area where FHA is absolutely the best is if you are looking to buy a multi-unit property like a 2, 3, or 4 flat and live in one of the units.
“Why do you say that?”
Sounds like you’re stretching to afford this. You don’t really know what you want in a home yet–you just got married, don’t have kids yet, etc. You certainly don’t *need* a different place now. Taking another property on now further increases your exposure to potential price declines (I guess there’s Ze’s walk away option, but I’d rather not have to take that). Save some money, see where things are in a couple years.
On the other hand, it would be good blog material.
“..and yet no one listens to me…”
The right answer is neither of them should have bought.
“but I’d rather not have to take that”
No one does.. .That does not change it’s value. It is part and parcel of what gives it its value. It actually allows you to be long and in peace. That’s not the only value either. Mis-allocation of diversifying resources is a big issue as well. Paying principal down may be the single biggest common misconception that I can think of. One that is to the banks best interest to continue to foster.
Gringo, so you subscribe to the carry the biggest mortgage you can afford position?
“No one does.. .That does not change it’s value.”
Sure, but there are ways to avoid putting yourself in that position. I’d rather not have a plan where something like that has a significant chance of being valuable. But I’m way more conservative than you.
Russ, correct me if i’m wrong but there only options are 20% down conventional or 3.5% FHA right? or are there of loan programs available to some brokers for buyers with awesome credit and decent income?
No, I’m pretty sure you can still do 10% with PMI.
Icarus, no. Conventional only requires 5% down. FHA just requires 3.5% down.
20% is only required for true jumbo financing (although there are a few 10% down options available).
“Gringo, so you subscribe to the carry the biggest mortgage you can afford position?”
That depends on how you define afford. I’m a pretty damn conservative guy so a debt/equity of over .33 would bother me terribly (speaking for myself only, as I see the obvious issue) . So if you mean “afford” as implying stretched and maxed out on your credit card. Absolutely not!!
What I am saying is this… everytime you pay down principal you are pushing down the strike and volume that the bank wrote you your mortgage at. Thus lowering the amount and value of those options. Both actions have a positive benefit in $ for the bank. It is a mathematical fact. In return you are paying a bit less. The question becomes whether that pmt less is greater than the loss you took by giving up those puts. but even if you went 30yr to 30 yr for about -.6% and ate 3 years for a touch over 1.8%. How much is the market down the past 3 yrs? That put was worth alot (still is). What you do with it is up to you. But it was/is valuable.
Secondly, but I believe sufficient on its own. I would rather be with 0 home equity, 500 loan, 500 in a globally diversified LIQUID portfolio of stocks and bonds than long 500k equity in a home. I would gladly eat up to .6% a year even if those puts didn’t exist. No brainer!
So please say … “well that’s obvious, but there is a point in the middle”.. show it to me!
So I am also saying that a 3.5% down and 20% down loan should not be priced anywhere near one another. If they are. You take the 3.5%
“That depends on how you define afford. I’m a pretty damn conservative guy so a debt/equity of over .33 would bother me terribly (speaking for myself only, as I see the obvious issue)”
Debt/Equity of the RE?
and Russ the guy that is 0,500,500 can in a blink go 500,0. The 500,0 guy has work and expense to reverse positions in order to go 0,500,500. He always seems to me to be the guy handcuffed in this story.
“Debt/Equity of the RE?”
No, overall – individually. I would never take on debt that I couldn’t pay down immediately. Personal reasons.
Ze — Google Analytics says i have reader in Rio…is that you? Is Milkster my one New York visitor?
Not a fan of anything below grade, but this is as good as it gets below grade (except maybe for the Armitage foot traffic. It does has hvac, w/d, fireplace, 2.5 baths, and parking. It only lacks a patio/balcony. That being said, its a pretty boring renovation, and i think the $8400 re taxes hurts it. Worth maybe $340/$350k, but in this location may find a buyer at a higher price.
“Ze — Google Analytics says i have reader in Rio…is that you?”
shh…. let’s just say I use a VPN.. (Clio thinks I am in Cleveland… best keep it that way.. this way he remains wrong about everything)
I wanted to see what DZ was causin all the fuss about. Although now Dan 2 is scrathing his head wondering if some asshole really does spend his life stoned and kitesurfing 🙂
Gringo, I tend to agree with you. There was a study done a couple of years ago by U of Michigan business school I believe saying that most borrowers are better off funding their IRAs/401ks or other investments than prepaying their mortgages. Overall liquidity is what keeps folks safe. Home equity is not liquid – especially if you need it in an emergency such as being laid off… The down payments are to protect the bank, not the borrower.
btw.. Now that I was just officially outed. I will do a photo essay of a Ze day in Rio for your website. 400 shots of perfect asses in lil bikinis. It will probably cause some google porn links to start appearing, which you know Bob will click on a few hundred times himself.
“Note that the basement window sill height is too high for legal bedroom habitation”
In Chicago? Or under best practices? Don’t see the 44″ max in the Chicago building code.
There’s a cost to liquidity and that costs is the interest you pay on your debt. It’s best to strike a balance between the two. It’s just dumb to pay $300,000 in interest over 30 years on a $300,000 home.
Got it Ze, thanks. I would agree with you then, but that is not possible for the vast majority of people.
“It’s just dumb to pay $300,000 in interest over 30 years on a $300,000 home.”
And I think that if someone gave you a million and you can’t figure out how to make 35k from it you are just one pathetic low expectation mother fucker.
“It only lacks a patio/balcony.”
There is the lack of gas heat, too.
HD, it is not just the cost of the interest. It is the opportunity cost of that money. When you pay off your mortgage you are basically just paying yourself the effective interest rate on the mortgage. Instead of paying off the mortgage, you could potentially get much higher returns on that money in other investments and still retain liquidity. Yes, there is a balance and it depends on each borrowers situation.
However, I would bet most younger borrowers are better off investing instead of getting rid of the mortgage from a purely financial perspective. Although this is an extreme example, who would be better off… putting 20% down 10 years ago or 5% down 10 years ago? The 5% down guy took the 15% he otherwise would have put down and invested in say Apple stock? Or heck even the broader stock market.
“uhhh – lamborghini gallardo spyder – rosso vik.”
wait is this like the UofC—UIC thing.
dont be ashamed an audi TT is a nice car, and UIC is a good commuter school.
plus didnt you say dont believe what is said on the internet? so then its not UoC or UIC its really Phoenix University Online?
wow a Joe Zekas developed property, thats worth at least 50k of 1979 dollars right?
does the situation change for the 65 year old sr. citizen? in terms of paying down the mortgage vs liquidity coming out from forced withdrawals?
““It only lacks a patio/balcony.”
There is the lack of gas heat, too”
below grade space is pretty even temp and just needs a bit of cooling or heating either way to make it comfortable.
Joey Z points out the electric he did to it was a mistake, i dont think it will hurt the owner of this place much.
Doesn’t matter if it’s an Audi or something else.
Anyone wanna buy a Clambo?
“clio (December 23, 2011, 6:11 pm)
““Chicago Doctor found dead in Lamborginihi, in apparent auto-erotic self-asphyxiation accident””
What’s a “Lamborginihi”? Oh – and because of the damn economy I am going to be selling my Lamborghini this spring!!!! FML”
“below grade space is pretty even temp and just needs a bit of cooling or heating either way to make it comfortable.”
More than a “bit” of heating, if it’s your primary living space, and doesn’t have a radiant floor.
“, if it’s your primary living space, and doesn’t have a radiant floor.”
i guess the key word is Primary, but even then wouldnt things like stove and fridge indirectly help with the heating. also the the furnishing will retain heat longer and indirectly help?
>Joe Zekas
Joe, you mean that people have been living in Duplex Downs since the 70’s and it’s not been a catastrophe for the owners? I thought all duplex downs flood from both sewer and rain water?
“It only lacks a patio/balcony.”
It only lacks that on CribChatter. In the real world there’s a small, not very attractive, patio space directly outside the unit and there’s a nice semi-private space a few steps away:
http://wibiti.com/images/hpmain/841/282841.jpg
i looked at this place 2yrs ago when it was a short sale. asking price was 399 and went under contract at 350. something happened and it fell through. the master bathroom was nice (just needed a door) as was the kitchen. i dont think they did much except knock out 1 wall downstairs and redo the second bathroom. i really liked this place, but the taxes and assesments were way to high. they didnt even include heat, ac, doorman etc. great location and butcher and the burger across the street
“even then wouldnt things like stove and fridge indirectly help with the heating. also the the furnishing will retain heat longer and indirectly help?”
Sure. Help it be 56 instead of 53. I’m assuming that the foundation walls were not uber-insulated either at conversion (JZ can help there) or afterward–the ground gets *cold* in Chicago in January.
brad,
This was a total gut. I lived half a block away at the time, on Seminary, and was very sensitive to water issues in the basements. We spent a great deal of planning and money to ensure that there’d be no water problems.
As to the question of radiant floors, the heating vents are in the floor at the basement level, with the ductwork buried beneath the concrete.
Electricity costs are a very real issue with this unit and its mirror at the west end of the building. Whoever buys it should have a ceiling fan in the 2-story area and use it to redistribute the heat. Ditto for cooling in the summer. The slight cost of running the fan will save tenfold or more in heating / cooling costs and add to perceived comfort.
“The units were all electric – a mistake”
I’ll say-and a big one. A townhouse I bought in the 90’s was originally built in the 70’s. Developers used all electric because it was cheaper. On a “cold” month(this was in SoCal) my heating bill shot up 300-400% over normal. Granted it was an older-non efficient furnace but I doubt they’ve changed that much. No matter how$$ gas gets, I sincerely doubt electric would be the same cost or less.
Snowee,
When I say electric heat was a mistake, that’s with the benefit of hindsight, much additional knowledge, and a changed utility environment.
We (the contractor and myself) were snowed by ComEd, which came to us with a variety of studies and subsidies. We went with electric heat pumps, not standard furnaces, based on a lot of documentation of their purported efficiency in heating / cooling. At the time ComEd had attractive rates (anyone remember their nuclear plants?) and a special, lower KWH rate for all-electric homes. ComEd also heavily subsidized the installation of new transformers which were required in any event for the project as part of going all-electric, and helped out with marketing costs. All in all, it appeared to be a great deal for us and for our buyers.
The unit in issue had, if I recall correctly, electric bills over $700 a winter / summer month in the early 80s, but part of that was due to clueless tenants who wouldn’t listen to anything.
“Sure. Help it be 56 instead of 53. I’m assuming that the foundation walls were not uber-insulated either at conversion (JZ can help there) or afterward–the ground gets *cold* in Chicago in January.”
Never slept or had primary living space in a basement, but as a kid parents make the playrooms down there i remember on the most hot an humid days playing in basements with no a/c or fans, same goes for cold days.
now my basement does have a guest bedroom, a full bath and laundry the rest is storage/workroom. The summers its nicer down there than upstairs, i cant say for the winters as i leave sections of the pipes for radiant uninsulated to heat the basement.
““The units were all electric – a mistake””
Joey Z, you weren’t involved the the planning for the Legacy (60 e monroe) too where you?
Sidenote to Groove: took a look at this one on the way home yesterday…i understand what you meant about why its not selling.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2318-N-Oak-Park-Ave-60707/home/13431757
“Sidenote to Groove: took a look at this one on the way home yesterday…i understand what you meant about why its not selling.”
did you walk though it or around it? the redfin link has some OLD pics
I basically parked up the street and walked past it and then back again. I could probably get over the closeness to the next building’s lot lines but the amount of traffic on Oak Park ave made this a deal breaker.
“I could probably get over the closeness to the next building’s lot lines but the amount of traffic on Oak Park ave made this a deal breaker”
have your agent take you inside, thats all that needs to be said.
the house is set back off the street quite a good bit, some strategically planted deciduous(sp) and evergreens can make up for the traffic view /noise. Lot lines on the side are not bad? its a ~50+ wide
It’ll sell at around this price unless the market is even worse than I think it is. Not too impressed with that kitchen. It’s large but most of it is the basement. And the assessments and utilities are going to be higher than one would like.
On second thought I don’t see how it can compete with http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2222-N-Racine-Ave-60614/unit-14/home/13353864.
Nor can it compete favorably with http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2525-N-Sheffield-Ave-60614/unit-1B/home/18928672 or http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1660-N-Hudson-Ave-60614/unit-2J/home/13346176 IMO.
uffy,
The Racine unit definitely has some positives, but …
It’s 5 blocks further from the L.
Does it have parking?
It has a spiral stair. One of my partnerships once owned 14 units at Surrey Court Lofts, on Fullerton. The spiral stairs were a major turnoff for most female renters / buyers, and an absolute deal-killer for many of them. Perhaps that’s changed since the early 80s.
The subject unit is probably larger. If my memory is accurate the listing agent for this unit has actually understated its square footage. It’s been a while, so I could be wrong, and I tossed the plans on a recent office move, but I recall the architect-measured square footage being over 2,000.
I used to live in this building, in a duplex-down unit… just not on the corner. I rented here for 2 years, and never had any problems with water. Even though the main living area is downstairs, the place gets tons of light due to the open space above. The only draw back is that the height of the ceilings in the kitchen makes it feel sort of cramped for those who are over 6 feet. If this unit was available when I was looking to buy, I would have payed $375K for it, and I still think that is a good price.
I visited this unit a few times when it was REO and did some research as I thought it had potential based on its size and location. I didn’t mind that it was a basement unit. Unlike another poster here, I actually was able to get inside the unit. It was not in great shape. My biggest concerns at the time: significant water damage, particularly around the entryway; and years of neglect by prior owner (which may have meant water->mold); also a seeming lack of condo reserves plus high taxes and assessments (at least to me). I was surprised someone paid $250K for it then as I thought it worth much less. Perhaps I misjudged. Curious to see what it ultimately sells for now.
JP$
The Chicago Building Code now requires that at least 50% of the area of a habitable room have a ceiling height of 7 feet or greater. My imperfect recall is that it required a lower percentage when we did this development.
In order to meet the ceiling height requirement in the kitchens without excavating further – which would have quickly reached the water table in the area and involved other issues – we wrapped the floor joists in drywall.
If the kitchen ceiling had been drywalled to the height of the bottom of the floor joists, as appears to be the case in the makeover of the subject unit, the space wouldn’t have met Code.
Do you recall whether the kitchen ceiling in your unit was the way we built it, i.e. with the floor joists wrapped in drywall rather than a flush ceiling?
Joe,
The ceiling height was flush.
“Will this rehabbed 2-bedroom duplex down sell for the 2005 price?”
The answer is YES!
It just closed for $409,900.