Would You Pay $9.5 Million for a 9-Bedroom Mansion On Lincoln Park? 2466 N. Lakeview
The Theurrer-Wrigley House at 2466 N. Lakeview in Lincoln Park just came on the market.
Located directly on Lincoln Park on the corner of Lakeview and Arlington, the mansion was built in 1894 for brewery baron Joseph Theurer in the Italian Renaissance style.
According to Wikipedia, he sold it to the Wrigley family in 1911 but they largely abandoned the property in the 1930s. Apparently, during the Great Depression, according to Wikipedia, many mansions became subject to burglaries and kidnapings, such as that of the Lindbergh baby.
It was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1980.
The house last sold in 2004 for $9 million.
It has much of the features of a mansion built in 1894 including original cherry and mahoghany wood paneling and staircases. It has crown molding and 5 fireplaces.
The main house has 9-bedrooms in 15,000 square feet. 5 of the bedrooms are on the second floor, three are on the third and one is in the lower level.
There is also a coach house on the 85×120 property with 5-car parking.
There is only one picture of the kitchen which shows cherry looking cabinets and stone counter tops (marble?) and just one picture of a vintage bathroom with a white clawfoot tub. It also appears there may be no central air (just window units.)
The house is in foreclosure proceedings with a lis pendens foreclosure filed in May 2011. That usually means anywhere from 18 months to 2 years before the bank takes possession.
Is there any market for this house?
The upper bracket has been more active in 2011 with several houses selling for over $4 million.
Mary Bennett at Koenig & Strey Real Living has the listing. See the virtual tour and numerous pictures here.
2466 N. Lakeview: 9 bedrooms, 7.5 baths, 15,000 square feet in the main house, coach house, 5 car parking
- Sold in April 2004 for $9 million
- Lis pendens foreclosure filed in May 2011
- Currently listed for $9.5 million
- Taxes of $118,395
- No central air? Looks like window units only
- 2 apartments in coach house for staff
- Bedroom #1: 20×17 (second floor)
- Bedroom #2: 18×12 (second floor)
- Bedroom #3: 14×12 (second floor)
- Bedroom #4: 20×13 (second floor)
- Bedroom #5: 15×12 (second floor)
- Bedroom #6: 18×13 (third floor)
- Bedroom #7: 19×16 (third floor)
- Bedroom #8: 11×10 (third floor)
- Bedroom #9: 15×12 (lower level)
I’m not certain he’s the actual homeowner, because I’m not a professional reader of CCRD and it’s possible that he’s could be acting on behalf of a client, but the grantee of the LPF is a classic backscratcher/backscratchee and lawyer about town. There are many interesting stories about him, and some of them may even be true.
11×10 is awfully small for an 8th bedroom. Dealbreaker.
sorry for the off topic but anyone have thoughts on the following listing:
4532 N GREENVIEW CHICAGO, IL 60640
MLS#: 07902009
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/4532-N-Greenview-Ave-60640/home/12556177
apparently it was owned by Rahm Emanuel in the 90’s…
I think a developer should buy this for 4 million and convert into 3, 5000 sq foot condos and leave the coach house intact – he could sell the 3 condos for 1.75 million and the coach house for 2 million – easy 1-2 million profit.
People like this should not be able to file for forclosure without seizure of assets. Lawyers like this guy are a detriment to society, only caring about themself
For the annual property taxes alone ($118k), I could live like a 1st class bum, staying in nice European hotels, supping on fine cuisine, with plenty left over for intoxicants and entertainment.
If Jamie Dimon could only get $5M or so for his really beautiful Gold Coast mansion that was in perfect condition and showed like a palace, and was NOT a “distress” sale in any way, I don’t see how a place that is in a slightly less desirable location, is a foreclosure sale, and is in fair condition at best with outdated mechanical elements, could sell for anywhere near the same price.
I also agree with the poster, Clio, who suggested converting the property to three. $1.75M luxury condos. That will take a lot of really expensive work and the place will probably need all mechanical elements replaced, plus the work and planning necessary to convert it to three separate homes.
So even $4M would be far too much money, and $9M is laughable.
$2.8M at the most.
As much as I dislike the suburbs, I have to admit that I would rather live in a north shore house with lake frontage than this.
“$2.8M at the most.
The land alone is worth more. Its hard to tell but the lot or lots are large.
You mean the land WAS worth more, about 5 years ago. I don’t think you’d find an eager buyer for it now.
Laura Louzader on November 7th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
If Jamie Dimon could only get $5M or so for his really beautiful Gold Coast mansion that was in perfect condition and showed like a palace, and was NOT a “distress” sale in any way, I don’t see how a place that is in a slightly less desirable location, is a foreclosure sale, and is in fair condition at best with outdated mechanical elements, could sell for anywhere near the same price.
I also agree with the poster, Clio, who suggested converting the property to three. $1.75M luxury condos. That will take a lot of really expensive work and the place will probably need all mechanical elements replaced, plus the work and planning necessary to convert it to three separate homes.
So even $4M would be far too much money, and $9M is laughable.
$2.8M at the most.
$2.8M – You are insane
“$2.8M at the most.”
I think that’s a bit low. Even without doing the full redevelopment contemplated by Clio, someone could separate the Coach house and sell that building alone for $1-1.5 MM depending on condition (w/ a long term leaseback of a garage space!) The main building by itself should sell for $2 – 3 MM.
It only takes one person who wants a unique trophy property, a business usage, a museum or institutional use, condo/hotel conversion.
The modern home next door, which also originally went on the market in 2004 at $9 million, sold last years for about half that… for another comp, there’s the Dewes mantion on Wrightwood on the market for $9.9 million: http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/503-W-Wrightwood-Ave-60614/home/13366503
This home has to be worth way more than the $2.8-3 million that some are throwing around here… it’s twice the size of most of the McMansions in on the market in LP in the $3 million range (before factoring in the coach house), and while it may need some work, it also had period detail and provenance that you could never get in new construction.
On the “convert to condos” front, the Meeker Mansion (3030 N Lakeshore) gives some idea of what might happen. I think the property was in a bit more of a distressed state (e.g. needed more interior work) when originally listed for 4.5, but it got split up in to 4 modern condos and sold separately. This was a while ago, and the 4th one is still for sale (also the developer moved in to another, so really only 2 of the 4 have sold). I think the penthouse there sold for north of 2m, so 2.8 for this whole deal seems pretty low, even considering work that might be required.
http://chicago.curbed.com/tags/meeker-mansion
I think this would make a good home for a historic society or something, or would need to be broken up into multiple units. Too darn big!
Business usage/museum/condos – yes
Single-family home – no. It just doesn’t work for that.
What ever happened to anon(tfo)? it’s been a while since he posted.
This should be marketed to institutions – historical societies, associations, private schools/preschools, high end private school for kids with speical needs, etc…
This would make a good school for the X-Men.
What I learned on Crib Chatter today:
The condo market is dead, therefore, if you have a chance to convert a mansion into condos, you should go for it.
Also, debt = bad
Yikes that mansion on Wrightwood is horrendous looking. I’m more of a modern architechture type so definately doesn’t appeal to me. The one in LP on Lakeview will go for $5.750M.
“This would make a good school for the X-Men.”
LOL! What a perfect description.
Convert to condos? You people are nuts. Mansions are still basically flying off the rack in LP. This is one of the nicest properties in the entire city. I think this one is ultimately worth more than Dimon’s mansion even given the location, but I agree that it needs more work.
In its current state I think it will sell somewhere between 5-6 million.
Given how much a condo conversion would cost, I see no possible way the numbers work out on that.
Also this house does have central air. I hate to give a plug for Joe but this is a pretty interesting tour:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwyLqRJ3jpU
I’m using Dimon’s huge, beautiful, amenity-stuffed, perfect Gold Coast mansion that sold last year for about $5M, if memory serves.
$2.8M seems cheap until you consider that huge expense of converting the place and totally rehabbing it with new mechanicals, as well as reconfiguring much of the space for multifamily.
We’re in a much more demanding and competitive market than we were a few years back, with much tighter financing and far fewer people qualifying to buy. If, like Clio suggests, you price each of three condos at $1.75M, the project would gross $5.25M. If you spend $3.5M on this place and then about $800K each, or $2.4M for the three together, on all the conversion and reconstruction expenses, you will spend $5.9 million, for a LOSS of $400K.
Does anyone think you could get more than $1.75M for each condo?
Will anybody buy this place just to lose money, especially in this risky climate?
I suggested $2.8M as a maximum price point that you could pay and hope to make any money at all, and that will be a tight squeeze.
I will bet my life’s savings right now that this will not result in a condo conversion. This isn’t 1990.
Yes, if you want to do condos you pretty much need to get the place for under 3 million. Which is why it’ll sell north of 5 to some lover of vintage architecture with deep pockets.
Don’t think it will sell so high to an individual home owner, given what comparables in better condition and better locations are selling for.
Maybe $3.5M to an individual home owner with very deep pockets.
Laura, with posts like this, you just put yourself in a box with clio and jenny.
it’ll sell for 4 million in 2 years when the bank owns it
Does anyone think you could get more than $1.75M for each condo?
Laura: What about the Coach House? That’s probably worth well over $1 MM in current condition, $2 MM if rehabbed well. So that changes your calculation quite a bit.
I can’t imagine it going for something like a preschool or other non-profit, unless the non-profit is a wealthy foundation.
Pre-schools and kindergartens and the like need CHEAP spaces, like the house at 1225 W Pratt, which was a Montessori School until it relocated around the corner to the first floor of a worn old 6-flat in the 6700 block of N Sheridan. THAT’S the kind of property a school wants.
jjj, obviously my guess strikes you as being a fantasy. I don’t think so. Look at what beautiful comparables have sold for in the past year…. IF they even sold. It is not easy to move houses in this bracket.
OHHHHHH it has a coach house?
That changes things.
OK then, $4.5 million. The coachhouse would make a 4th, more expensive condo.
Laura, you are flat out wrong. Several gold coast mansions have sold for over 5 million this year even though they were under 10,000 sqft. Several mansions have sold in Lincoln Park over 5 Million as well. None of them were as elaborate or architecturally significant as this property. There will be some discount because it does need work, but it will absolutely go to a wealthy owner occupier. It’s hilarious to hear you ramble on with your irrelevant analysis.
That house just looks creepy to me.
Andy: “Laura, you are flat out wrong. Several gold coast mansions have sold for over 5 million this year even though they were under 10,000 sqft. Several mansions have sold in Lincoln Park over 5 Million as well. None of them were as elaborate or architecturally significant as this property. There will be some discount because it does need work, but it will absolutely go to a wealthy owner occupier. It’s hilarious to hear you ramble on with your irrelevant analysis.”
What’s hilarious is that you post with such certainty and are so willing to mf another poster who is actually trying to find comps and set a fair price. Hilarious? I’d give that to posters like you and Clio who think the buck starts and stops with their opinions on any given subject. Hubris.
Not that I’m disagreeing with you, really. The historical significance of the place and it’s size make things interesting. But you disagree with Laura? Great! Show us the comps. Tell us what makes this place, as opposed to many other huge properties with history, so special as to demand 9mil. If it’s so damn obvious, show us!
Christ, the internet is annoying. You’re wrong! No you’re wrong! No, you’re an idiot! No, you’re so wrong it’s hilarious! Oh, how cute…you think you’re right. So sad. So much bluster and attitude. Drop it and show us some GD facts.
The world is filled with clios…
People here ignore some posters, like clio and jenny, because they never provide arguments to back up their positions and their viewpoints and opinions are often demonstrably absurd.
If someone has an established record of not being a clueless idiot, then people will try to provide counterarguments with comps and information, as opposed to just baseless speculation. Laura’s argument that this property is worth less than $3 million is based on breaking it up into condos, and it absurd on its face. That kind of argument doesn’t deserve the time for someone to put together a reasoned analysis and argument.
I haven’t been on the site for a while. What happened to the search function? Has there been any chatter about the blue monstrosity that was erected at the new residence on the southwest corner of Armitage and Burling?
Mansion sales.
Gold Coast:
1358 N Dearborn. 6000 sqft @ 4.5 mil
http://cribchatter.com/?p=10760
1425 N State Pkwy. 7000 sqft @ 5.78 mil
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1425-N-State-Pkwy-60610/home/14125836
1432 N State Pkwy 9600 sqft @ 5.9 mil
http://cribchatter.com/?p=10190
Lincoln Park
1866 N Howe 11,000 sqft @ 8.5 mil
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1866-N-Howe-St-60614/home/13347733
Diane Burns house 5750 sqft @ 4.5 mil
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-05-27/classified/ct-mre-0529-elite-street-20110527_1_mansion-marc-watts-diann-burns
These are all of the top of my head. I’m too lazy to keep going. Also the morningstar guy is building a megamansion a few blocks from here on land bought from the Lincoln park 2520 deal:
http://neighborhoods.redeyechicago.com/lincoln-park/around-the-web/2011/09/22/morningstar-founder-plans-chicago-mansion/
Are you happy now? Or am i still an idiot you self-righteous prick?
I’ve always loved this house.
Also, just to be clear, I do actually agree with Sonies that the bank will probably foreclose before this one sells, unless they are directing this sale – which is possible.
@TftinChi i just fulfilled your ridiculous demands with a post with tons of links but it appears to be awaiting moderation. I guess this happens when you post w/ links?
More than 1 link = moderation.
“Has there been any chatter about the blue monstrosity that was erected at the new residence on the southwest corner of Armitage and Burling?”
Pretty shocking this is legal, if it really is! Maybe some grease was added?
“What ever happened to anon(tfo)? it’s been a while since he posted.”
I know. I miss him.
The Wrigley Mansion is very livable as a family home, much more so than the Dewes House which I also shot video at. I spent an hour-and-a-half at the Wrigley and didn’t see the entire home. Skipped a tour of the coach house due to my schedule.
The owner was a partner at Jenner & Block during the years I spent there. I’ll also be shooting video soon at another mansion that he recently sold.
@HD
google-fu is doing just fine.
“I haven’t been on the site for a while. What happened to the search function?”
It is temporarily missing. Annoying, isn’t it?
The site is being redesigned so some things are being shuffled around. The new site should be up some time this week though- and it will have much more functionality. Yipee!
“Laura’s argument that this property is worth less than $3 million is based on breaking it up into condos, and it absurd on its face. That kind of argument doesn’t deserve the time for someone to put together a reasoned analysis and argument.”
Why is it absurd? It’s absurd to break it up into condos or the price is absurd?
Seems to me this property would be perfect for condos- especially as it lacks any kind of yard.
“Why is it absurd? It’s absurd to break it up into condos or the price is absurd?”
It’s absurd because I am the one who brought it up and nobody likes me….
Speaking of overpriced, can someone tell me why they need $4mil to build a 1 acre dog park? I’d love to see the breakdown of these expenses:
http://chicagojournal.com/Blogs/Near-Loop-Wire/10-05-2011/South_Loop%27s_16th_and_Wabash_Park_moving_forward
Three things.
First, I fully co-sign Andy’s post from 4:34 p.m. today. Saying that the subject property goes for what Laura has proposed is, indeed, demonstrably, absurd. (Laura: You often provide very worthwhile commentary re: LV, RW, RP, etc. properties, which I appreciate. Saying that this place goes for $3 mil or under, when McMansions 150 feet from the Target in west “Lincoln Park” go for that price…come on.)
Second, Sabrina: see Icarus’ comment re: “what we’ve learned today.” Turn this place into condos, AFTER YOU YOURSELF HAVE DECLARED THE CONDO MARKET “DEAD”?!
Third, sorry…but the third is for you as well Sabrina. A yard? What!!!!!!!!!!? The buyers of this place aren’t looking for a “yard.” They have the park across the street, their school parks at Latin or Parker, and their yards at their lake homes/mountain homes/beach homes.
There is, granted, a very small population of prospective buyers of this place. But it will no doubt sell and, barring some sheer craziness on the part of the bank, I’d say $6 on the low end, $7.25 million on the high end. Me, I’d rather spend $4 or $5 million on a place in one of the three superb buildings on this street, and devote the rest to fees.
“Second, Sabrina: see Icarus’ comment re: “what we’ve learned today.” Turn this place into condos, AFTER YOU YOURSELF HAVE DECLARED THE CONDO MARKET “DEAD”?!”
Yes, it is dead for 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom and some 3 bedroom cookie cutter condos that you can’t raise a family in.
But a 5,000 square foot full floor vintage condo with parking right on the park? It’s not as dead.
The smaller condo market is as dead as a doornail. Look around. That unit on Belden should have sold months ago. It sits and sits and sits. I can’t tell you how many properties I see like this in GZ locations. Prime. With most of the unicorn criteria, frankly. Sure- some of them have no character- but that didn’t stop them for selling rather quickly just 2 or 3 years ago- even at the height of the Great Recession.
The psychology is changing. Bank owned units that used to sell within hours (even before listing- mainly to other real estate agents or their friends) are no longer selling to other real estate agents or their friends. They are coming on the market. Why? Because the list of deals is endless. It will go on for years. So 3 years ago someone thought a 2/2 in in East Lincoln Park was a “deal” at $450,000. Only here we are in nearly 2012 and they are finding, whoops, not so much. They became, as G would say, knife catchers.
People are only now starting to realize that prices aren’t going to come back for a looooong time. So the game is simply not so fun anymore.
We are seeing concrete evidence of this and so are possible buyers. We have seen condos bought just 1 or 2 years ago that come back on the market and not only are the sellers not even breaking even, in just 12 to 18 months, but they are losing $10,000, $20,000 or sometimes more BEFORE transaction costs. Yeah- that’s pretty brutal. And that message is being telegraphed to their friends and their friends friends.
All the psychology hasn’t changed. Condos are still selling (just at a slower pace than before.) But from what I’ve seen, this is just a brutal fall.
“Third, sorry…but the third is for you as well Sabrina. A yard? What!!!!!!!!!!? The buyers of this place aren’t looking for a “yard.” They have the park across the street, their school parks at Latin or Parker, and their yards at their lake homes/mountain homes/beach homes.”
That’s exactly my point anonny. They don’t need any kind of yard because of the location. So it’s perfect for a couple of full floor condos.
But getting back to this house- we have learned in the last year or two that buyers want move-in ready. This house is not. How many times have we seen houses that need a lot of work sell (at ANY price?) Not often. Not unless the price is really right. At this price range- good luck. Someone mentioned Jamie Dimon’s house in the Gold Coast. That was completely move-inable and renovated. Yet look what that ultimately sold for.
Also- this house is going to get a lot of competition from the brand new condos, with views, just a few doors down at 2520.
Sabrina, in this price bracket nothing is move in ready because everyone wants to install their own taste. If you’ve been by the Dimon mansion recently you will see that it’s actually undergoing a pretty heavy renovation right now. Same goes for the mansion that Randy Fifield bought.
also did you watch the video? The house is every bit as move in ready as the Dimon mansion was anyway.
The drive court between the home and the coach house, and on the north side of the home, is far larger than the typical single-family yard in the city. It has stone pavers which might not make it a “yard” to some, but there’s a decent amount of outdoor space.
Anyone who can seriously entertain the notion of this property as a condo has zero understanding of it.
“The house is every bit as move in ready as the Dimon mansion was anyway.”
Ha! ha! ha!
I love people who are smoking something in the evening.
Did you SEE the Dimon house? He spent millions restoring it. Did you see the kitchen in the video of the Theurer house? It’s nowhere near what you would need to have in a $9 million home.
It needs millions in renovation. Just like the Dimon house- which is what he did to it. The closest house to this is the one that finally sold on North State Parkway by a vintage lover who is currently restoring it.
How long will the bank sit on this one, is the question. Will someone take a bite at $4 or $5 million? Will they split it into condos? They could make a pretty penny splitting it.
“Sabrina, in this price bracket nothing is move in ready because everyone wants to install their own taste.”
I disagree 100%. People don’t have time to renovate- in ANY price point. They want move-in ready. If they were “renovating it to their own taste” then many million dollar condos would sell without their kitchens and baths- but they don’t. The mansion on North State that is currently under renovation took years to sell (and many price reductions) and the owner bought it with the explicit intention of renovating it. There aren’t many buyers like that around (unless they’re developers.)
All you have to do is look at all the Gold Coast mansions that are unrenovated that sit and sit and sit. Why is that? Oh yeah- even rich people don’t want to be bothered.
‘Anyone who can seriously entertain the notion of this property as a condo has zero understanding of it.”
You know us Crib Chatterers.
We’re all a bunch of happy-go-lucky morons who know nothing about Chicago real estate.
Sabrina,
I have the severe handicap of having been in many of these properties, and knowing the people who own them and how they live in them.
You have the cool, clear vision that can only come from a drive-by.
I stand chastened by your sarcasm.
The property market is so picked over that any property with a price that could even conceivably justify renovation was ‘snapped’ up long ago. I’m starting to see homes that have been listed for years finally start to go under contract. The leftovers in the ‘bargain’ bin are starting to be snapped up simply because there isn’t much else out there and even fewer new properties are replacing those that sell/go under K.
Joe’s the parking valet who is an expert in luxury vehicles because he parks nice cars for a living.
Sabrina: “All you have to do is look at all the Gold Coast mansions that are unrenovated that sit and sit and sit. Why is that? Oh yeah- even rich people don’t want to be bothered.”
Cool so I guess that explains why the Pritzkers, the Fifields, and the Andresens (of Citadel), are all currently involved in VERY VERY substantial renovations of large historic mansions.
And like I said whoever bought the Dimon mansion is not even living in it yet. I walked by it no less than 3 weeks ago. It’s in the middle of a very serious renovation. But you know…Rich people have to move in tomorrow.
The fact of the matter is that historic mansions are a rare commodity. Even rarer in Lincoln Park than they are in the Gold Coast. Given that the ultra wealthy seem to almost prefer Lincoln Park today, especially if younger, I’m confident this home will find a buyer. Especially considering that this house, unlike the Dewes mansion, is actually tasteful.
The idea that this mansion will become low enough in price to justify converting it to condos is just ridiculous. The one anecdote you people have is the meeker mansion. I’m not impressed, especially when considered next to the relatively large sum of historic renovations that have been embarked upon. Having said that, it’s overpriced @ 9 million.
“The fact of the matter is that historic mansions are a rare commodity. Even rarer in Lincoln Park than they are in the Gold Coast.”
No they’re not. Read this site for more than a few days Andy. We’ve chattered about dozens of them over the years. Some are on the market for years and years. So you cite 3 people who are renovating. Big whip. There are hundreds of million dollar homes on the market. They’re all NOT renovating. Most people hate it (even rich people.) They want move-in ready. Haven’t you learned anything from this market? It’s quite obvious. Heck, the flippers/renovators know all about what I’m saying. All you have to do is put in a new kitchen, some new lighting, fix up the backyard and viola, you’ll have a sale (and make money too.) People are suckers for something that looks all shiny and new (yes- even the rich.)
Maybe whomever bought the Dimon house, I can’t be bothered to look it up right now, simply likes to waste millions of dollars when 47 million people in this country are on food stamps. I do not know. Because Mr. Dimon spent millions renovating it to its former glory. What else do you have to do to it? Paint the walls and that’s about it. How sad. Donate the money to a good cause instead. Seriously.
“The idea that this mansion will become low enough in price to justify converting it to condos is just ridiculous.”
It’s in foreclosure.
By Bank of America. (I shouldn’t even have to go further than those three words: Bank…of… America.)
They don’t give a crap what happens to it as long as they can unload it for something (see their foreclosure sales on, oh, dozens of other mansions and high rise buildings around the city.)
So who knows what it will sell for once the bank actually takes possession? That new construction mansion on Geneva in LP sold for peanuts once the bank decided to dump it. They don’t want to be landlords. Heck, maybe we should see what happens to that mansion on Dearborn Parkway that is also soon to be bank owned (if it isn’t yet.) That has busted front windows and who knows what else. Been on the market for years. Can you imagine the maintenance the bank has to do on these homes? Wow. They’ll just want to dump it. Perhaps a developer can get it for really cheap just because BAC doesn’t want to deal.
If you’re seriously going to suggest that a mansion such as this isn’t a rare commodity, then you’re just being obtuse.
I’m the one who’s actually brought lots of evidence to the discussion, but I guess I’ll just take your advice and “read the site for a few years” which, Oh btw, I have.
Thanks for all the insight though, I’ll wait for the condo conversion now.
“The leftovers in the ‘bargain’ bin are starting to be snapped up simply because there isn’t much else out there and even fewer new properties are replacing those that sell/go under K.”
I agree with this sentiment HD. I can’t believe some of the things that are under contract right now. If there was any inventory whatsoever, they wouldn’t be selling. But they are because apparently there are enough buyers out there willing to pick over the scraps.
I really hope it improves by the spring. Because the housing market is getting really boring right about now.
“If you’re seriously going to suggest that a mansion such as this isn’t a rare commodity, then you’re just being obtuse.”
What does “rare” mean? 20? 30? I don’t know. Because there are PLENTY of historic mansions on the market all over the city right now. There is nothing special about this one except it’s price (which is way above what the market is for it anyway.) List it at $5 million and we’re not even chattering about it. But because it’s the fall/winter and the market is slow- we have to have something to discuss here, right? So why not some big historic mansion that needs renovation. I love the woodwork, personally, but someone is going to have to go in and do some serious historic preservation here.
Why can’t it be condos? Maybe we should ask the seller of the condo in the Playboy Mansion. Whoops. I guess that’s an exception. What about the seller of the condo in the McCormick Mansion? Whoops. Another exception. No. None of these “mansions” have EVER been converted to condos before. It just never happens. Not in Chicago.
My mistake.
You all are attacking Laura and Clio and whomever else for even suggesting this be turned into condos.
No one has answered my question: why not?
Seems the perfect solution to me.
Patterson McCormick mansion converted to condos: 1978.
Playboy mansion converted to condos: 1993.
These were both decidedly before the urban renaissance.
Rare means this is easily among the top 5 mansions remaining in the city of Chicago in terms of its architectural significance and grandeur.
I regret the hostile tone this conversation has taken, but I do believe you are very mistaken.
“Rare means this is easily among the top 5 mansions remaining in the city of Chicago in terms of its architectural significance and grandeur.”
Really? I just don’t see the “grandeur” but to each his own. This is purely a subjective determination on your (or my) part. I think the property in the Oakdale historic district is cooler than this one- but that’s just me. There are also some very cool south side mansions currently on the market that I think have more of their vintage flavour than this one. All of them have architectural significance and grandeur.
This is why I normally leave these houses to Curbed. I don’t see the point in them really (even though I like historic properties usually.) But when BAC takes it over- then we’ll see. Or maybe one of the Groupon guys needs a project. And good for them. I’d rather have someone living in it than have it sitting there empty for years like the Dawes house (and other mansions around the city.)
^ The real question is whether this is a lender directed short sale or if the current owner is trying to pull a sale out this market before they get foreclosed on. The answer to this question means multimillions in the sale price I would guess. However I maintain that either way, it will remain single family.
“…simply likes to waste millions of dollars when 47 million people in this country are on food stamps.”
Most 1%’ers are democrats and most live in solidly blue locales/states. While people starve, Obama raises $40K per dinner plate from these types, routinely (likes of Dimon, Pritzkers, Corzine, Buffett, Gates, Hollywood elite (i.e. SKG), etc.). I wonder what OccupyWS thinks of these people and their ostentation and influence peddling? They don’t fit the OWS image of pinning “blaming republicans” for America’s income disparity and piggish greed, most 1%ers are liberals, and big hypocrites.
“The real question is whether this is a lender directed short sale or if the current owner is trying to pull a sale out this market before they get foreclosed on.”
What buyer would buy this BEFORE it gets foreclosed on? You only have to wait about 12 to 18 months (depending on how aggressive BAC is going to be.) They filed the lis pendens in May. The clock began ticking then. By next fall, the bank will own it and any buyer will get it for much, much cheaper.
You all are acting like $9 million sales are common. They are extremely rare in the city of Chicago. We have seen a few sales over $5 million this year. That is also rare for the last several years. Our market cannot sustain home prices at that level (unless we have a few more Groupons- then maybe.) Wrigley still hasn’t managed to sell his unfinished condo space on Goethe for how long now? He split it into two units to try and find more buyers- but no luck. I don’t know what happened to Vince Vaughn’s Palmolive unit. Maybe he sold it to someone in a private sale. But it was supposed to come on the market and never did.
There are 17 properties currently listed for over $5 million in all of Chicago. That’s a drop in the bucket. A blip on the radar screen. Chicago’s real estate market is so much more interesting right now than those 17 properties.
“They could make a pretty penny splitting it.”
I’m shocked that you think that this is the case, and I also think that splitting a property like this into condos to possibly (and I would say almost certainly not be able to) turn a meager profit by massacring a historical and architectural gem would be among the worst crimes against real estate one could commit without having some sort of engineering accident that kills people.
I am not sure what a condo conversion into multiple units would cost in a property like this, but I would imagine that it would be extraordinarily expensive. This property was built in the 19th century and is brick and stone and the finest interior details. Any construction project would involve all kinds of unknown surprises and major issues. A full condo conversion would require new MEP throughout and would require destruction and/or relocation of gorgeous paneling, built-ins, staircases, fireplaces, etc. It would cost millions. And it would be idiotic. And no one will do it.
“You know us Crib Chatterers. We’re all a bunch of happy-go-lucky morons who know nothing about Chicago real estate.”
This is probably the general view of the real estate community and most real estate professionals. I don’t agree with them, but I think that there is a related problem. Your views and comments have become increasingly doctrinaire during the year or so I’ve been following your site. You seem to have a few truisms you’re intent on proving through these postings, and seem to try to cheerlead discussion towards these concepts. When analysis is necessary, you return to these truisms. I don’t know what your background or experience in real estate is and don’t know if you’ve developed these truisms in any empirical or direct way, but it seems to me that you’re clearly picking and choosing anecdotal evidence to try to prove that your view is right.
This citizen-philosopher’s view of real estate is shared by a few other frequent contributors to this great site, with each of you having a different (flawed) worldview. Dr. Feelgood thinks that everything is always great for everyone, just be rich and buy a lot of real estate, cars, lovers and self-esteem (if available). The Princess sure hates everything and everyone and every listing, and doesn’t understand why everyone can’t just leave her alone except when they’re catering to her every whim. Chicken Little is constantly dodging imaginary falling skies and would like to point out that he doesn’t understand how valuation works and is angry that the world isn’t .
Each of you has mixed your thinly tested rules of thumb with untested fundamental beliefs about how things are and think that your mindset is generalizable or useful to others. I fundamentally disagree with this approach. You’re completely misunderstanding the nature of real estate as an asset class. Real estate is extremely illiquid and fulfills goals and needs in addition to financial benefits, in addition to having unique tax treatment. A visitor to this site trying to rely on the advice of the four of you would have zero actionable information, they would just have flawed worldviews that, even if they’re right for a small portion of the population, are ignorant of all the factors that should determine the way in which people make real estate decisions.
JJJ,
As someone who’s actually done millions of dollars of rehab – 30 years ago when that number meant more – and who has been in this home, I can only marvel at how big a fool Sabrina is willing to make him / herself appear in this thread.
No one who is serious would opine on condoing any home like this without having been in it. Or speculate on the likely course of any foreclosure involving an owner like this one as an outsider to the process. S/he’s in a universe with which s/he has no acquaintance.
homedelete,
Funny line – but it’s a lie, and you know it.
To Patrick, re the house on Greenview formerly owned by Rahm:
Rahm surely does have dull taste.
Wow, jjj, you really must be an economist with that amount of blathering.
Joe,
you have done millions in real estate rehab and are very knowledgable about real estate in general. I have done a few million dollars in rehab and own several homes – but the typical “reader” on this site would rather listen to the opinion of a low-mid level worker in an office who rides his/her bike to work and rents than listen to us….. “moron” and “idiot” don’t go far enough in describing these people…..
I think it stays a single family home, but sells for $6.5M or so. No way does it go close to the $10M it is now. Spliting it into condos isn’t happening either.
In the immediate area, how are sales going at 2520? The project looks like it is progressing and should be open by March or so is my guess.
Are you calling me a liar?
The original Playboy Mansion was a 70-room classicizing French brick and limestone residence in Chicago at 1340 North State Parkway, featuring an indoor pool and a bowling alley. About 17 years ago, a developer converted it into condominiums.
Joe Zekas on Hef’s former Playboy Mansion in 1994: “No one who is serious would opine on condoing any home like this without having been in it.”
Sabrina and clio: “Why is it absurd? It’s absurd to break it up into condos or the price is absurd?”
JP$: “I think this would make a good home for a historic society or something.”
Former Playboy Mansion (before condo conversion) was owned by the School of the Art Institute of Chicago.
Sabrina: “Why can’t it be condos? Maybe we should ask the seller of the condo in the Playboy Mansion. Whoops.”
Oh, look! A Condo listing at $6.7 million in former mansion, the WSJ “House of the Day”: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204831304576594800691430900.html
How about a zoning variance so that some history-appreciating entrepreneur could turn it into a high-end bed-and-breakfast? Or maybe a fancy “boutique” hotel?
investors picking through the scrap bin:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/4329-N-Kostner-Ave-60641/home/13481854
on and off the market for 2 years and then miraculously reappears on the MLS under contract at the same price it was at when it was taken off the market. WTF?
I think the best historical mansions in the city are in Hyde Park, especially along Woodlawn between 47th and 59th.(And I felt that way even BEFORE the Prez came to town, okay?)
How are THOSE places been doing lately?
HD – wtf don’t you understand?!! People are NOT as stupid and scared as you – there ARE plenty of people buying and waiting to buy. To sit back and arrogantly think that you are special bc you saved a little money and you are in a better situation than almost all other buyers is ridiculous and completely idiotic. There are many people out there with the money and guts to buy –
“on and off the market for 2 years and then miraculously reappears on the MLS under contract at the same price it was at when it was taken off the market. WTF?”
Supply and demand. Which one are you having problems understanding? Demand is low. Supply is lower.
Good post, JJJ
People that speak in absolutes (like the media) are just noise and shouldn’t be paid much attention, you will receive much more useful information from people that spend time critically thinking about both sides of an issue rather than unilaterally (like a religion).
“Demand is low. Supply is lower.”
Supply constraints are due to shadow inventory manipulations. Therefore, knifecatching continues abated.
err, “unabated”
G – you idiot – shadow inventory is called “shadow” for a reason- these sellers really don’t need to sell nor are they going to sell for a loss. They are a lot more stable than you think….. also, they are sitting in the catbird’s seat because they have the product that the renters want…… Really, it isn’t that hard to understand.
“Really, it isn’t that hard to understand.”
Yet, you’ve been wrong about everything to date.
Really G? Aren’t you getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, old man? Let’s compare money we have made in real estate investing….
“Supply constraints are due to shadow inventory manipulations.”
Sure. There are many factors that affect supply. That is certainly one of them. The $2 trillion question is, is there ANY way that the gov can stabilize prices (artificially or not), in a way that allows these properties to come on the market in something other than a fire sale death spiral. Seems unlikely, but you just never know.
” Aren’t you getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over, old man?”
Well, in G’s defense, repeating it over and over again has been the correct thing so far. However, that is probably the easier part. What remains to be seen is if he (or anyone) will know when to stop repeating it. Many bears are just a broken clock and happen to be right now. Perhaps G is smarter than that. Time will tell.
“Seems unlikely, but you just never know.”
Agreed, but I’ll go with my gut on this one. The govt won’t succeed, but every day they lure in another knifecatcher or get someone to keep feeding their alligator is another dollar for the banks. On second thought, that probably is success to them.
“Let’s compare money we have made in real estate investing….”
What money have you made? We’ve only seen losses. Nothing surprising, of course, based on your comments here.
I have no doubt the government and fed will eventually (someday far in the future) succeed, and some dipshit politician will take far too much credit for a natural market cycle/force, that definitely would have been far more efficient and corrected much more efficiently if the government had just stayed out of it in the first place…
“What money have you made? We’ve only seen losses. Nothing surprising, of course, based on your comments here.”
He made his money back in the 90’s like all those genius pro day trader folks that are totally making boku cash today
Define succeed. If you mean 3-4% measured inflation not sure the fed can act with that precision.
There will be RE death spirals but they will be in areas housing costs arent anchored to sustainablr incomes: california, NY, Boston, DC.
The ‘fire sale death spiral’ is really just market forces discovering the equilibrium.
“that definitely would have been far more efficient and corrected much more efficiently if the government had just stayed out of it in the first place…”
Correct. Cycles exist for a reason. There is usually an “up” and “down” component of them. The gov seems hell bent on only having the “up” part of the cycle, or at worst, trying to make the “down” part flat. Leave well enough alone. Stop adjusting rates. Set fed rate at 4% and just leave it. Let nature take its course.
The fed seems to be doing a pretty good job right now bob (annual inflation right under 4%)
http://bpp.mit.edu/usa/
the second shit starts to get out of hand they just raise rates a point or two and crash the commodity markets, and voila! things become cheaper, killing any inflationary fears. The thing we need to worry about is the Euro crashing too hard and there being a flight to US dollars, which would create a deflationary environment here, which is a main reason the fed hasn’t raised rates yet.
The good news is that the Euro people seem to be doing a decent job dragging this thing out as long as humanly possible and not having a huge flight from euros, more of a slow bleed while they print money out of thin air via leveraged bailout funds and the like.
“The ‘fire sale death spiral’ is really just market forces discovering the equilibrium.”
Sorta. It is a reaction to the bubble. If the bubble didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be in the “fire sale death spiral” now. And without intervention (or even with), that death spiral is likely to go BELOW equilibrium on sheer momentum alone.
Let’s say the “real” value of an item is $100
Rampant speculation drives the price up to $500
The resultant bust drives the price down to $50.
Had that speculation not occurred to such a degree, the price may have only gone up to say $120. The resulting correction would have probably only been to $80 then, instead of a “fire sale death spiral” to $50.
According to Louise Yamada, there are only 2 things that have eclipsed their 2007 bubble highs/prices: 1) Commodities (i.e. CCI – Continuous commodity index) & 2) Precious metals. Those are the only 2 sectors in secular bull markets. Stocks, RE are in secular bear markets, and they should be avoided until they bottom which isn’t yet. Even if RE holds flat (in nominal terms) due to inflation, in real terms it will be losing ground.
It’s really that simple. First stocks to bottom will likely be tech (P/Es still compressing), but they do end their current 11+ year bear cycle, there will be good upside.
well US GDP just eclipsed its 2008 high as well…
Yeah, before revisions. JPM says inventory decline to result in 1.6% instead of 2.3% estimate.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/inventories-to-result-in-big-hit-to-q3-gdp-2011-11-09?link=MW_latest_news
“well US GDP just eclipsed its 2008 high as well…”
They just published a story about this home today in CRED:
http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/article/20111110/CRED03/111109717/former-mcpier-chairman-ted-tetzlaff-faces-foreclosure