Vintage Lakeview 2/2 With Parking Now Listed at $300,000: 3126 N. Clifton

Aug 15 • Lakeview, Reductions • 485 Views • 323 Comments

We last chattered about this top floor 2-bedroom at 3126 N. Clifton in Lakeview in March 2011.

3126-n-clifton-approved.jpg

See our prior chatter here.

It has since been reduced another $25,000 and is now priced at $94,000 under the 2006 purchase price at $300,000 (if you include the parking.)

Back in March, some of you thought at $325,000, it was fairly priced and were surprised it hadn’t sold yet.

But others of you also thought it would sell sub-$300k at anywhere from $275k to $289k.

The top floor unit has some of its vintage features intact, including maple floors and wood work.

It has a separate dining room open to the living room with a balcony.

The kitchen has stainless steel appliances and newer cabinets.

The unit has the amenities that many buyers look for including central air, in-unit washer/dryer and deeded garage parking.

Is the going rate for Lakeview 2/2s now around $300,000?

Robin Miner at @Properties still has the listing. See the pictures and the floorplan here.

Unit #3: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, no square footage listed

  • Sold in April 2004 for $350,000
  • Sold in May 2006 for $394,000
  • Originally listed in September 2009 for $389,000
  • Reduced
  • Was listed in September 2010 for $329,000
  • Reduced
  • Was listed in March 2011 at $299,000 (parking is $25,000 extra)
  • Reduced
  • Currently listed at $275,000 (parking is $25,000 extra)
  • Assessments of $253 a month
  • Taxes of $5119
  • Central Air
  • Washer/Dryer in the unit
  • Bedroom #1: 14×10
  • Bedroom #2: 11×10

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323 Responses to Vintage Lakeview 2/2 With Parking Now Listed at $300,000: 3126 N. Clifton

  1. BettyBoop says:

    Extreme boredom looking at these photos. And just make it $289K and include the parking. Why fool around with the option. In the land of permit parking, most people want parking–even if for guests and resale value of the place.

  2. Chris M says:

    Being the top floor doesn’t qualify something as the “penthouse”.

  3. Bob says:

    Its a nice enough area during the day. But too close to the Belmont stop space cadets at night. Better to be west of Racine.

  4. JP$ says:

    Appropriate price. Will sell near ask.

  5. Bob says:

    I tend to agree with Jp$. This property will be worth watching because if it doesn’t move quickly near ask it is the canary in the coal mine for 2/2s in the greenzone.

  6. tomm says:

    I agree that it’s not ‘exciting’. Kinda looks like an elderly renter’s apartment from the 70′s, except for the SS appliances. I don’t see a young adult even calling to look at it. Need to stage the place better, I think.

  7. Bob says:

    HD at 200k I would jump on it & make serious coin renting to alkies who live at big shitty tap. I’d turn it into a graniteel flophouse. uh oh with falling RE valuations the GZ might be in trouble. but call me and my ilk a greenliner plz in keeping with CC vernacular.

  8. JMM says:

    Class A apartments downtown at 2.43 / sq ft net lease. Renters sure are suckers right now.

  9. Vlajos says:

    “Class A apartments downtown at 2.43 / sq ft net lease. Renters sure are suckers right now.”

    I tend to agree. Occupancy is almost 96%.

  10. homedelete says:

    vintage will always be priced less than new; although someday vintage may sell for more than cinder block.

    Regardless, demand for owner-occupied ownership of these ‘apartments’ is waning. Most kids today right out of college are too poor to buy them, and, those slightly older and ready to get married have learned the lesson of the ‘crib in the second bedroom’; leaving the next eligible group of purchasers the empty nesters, which we have consistently shown are not interested in trading down into a 2/2 condo from their SFH in the suburbs. Elderly is out of the question. There are just way too many 2/2′s to meet the demographics who want to buy these. Rental market is hot obviously, but own? Even older homes in need of major cosmetic repairs in various areas of the northwest, north and near south sides are selling well because buyers are skipping the starter condo phase entirely. Sure there are outliers who may purchase 2/2′s these days – single women with lots of cats; homosexual couples; infertile DINKS, perpetual bachelors, recent divorcees; but combined that’s a small minority of the population. A majority of buyers are families, or will soon form a family, etc.

  11. JMM says:

    I call BS on HD’s last statement. Housing is viewed as more transient nowadays, which is a big part of the problem in the first place. People are just paying up for longer term options. Very few picture themselves in their early 50s with a senior in high school in one of the 3 bedroom starter homes in the crappy part of north center.

  12. JMM says:

    I’ve got to say, I’d take 2.43 per sq ft on any property in our system right now. That is sucker money.

  13. homedelete says:

    You’re BS. Even you live in a house that you once said you would probably die in. Many others do that too. And they are paying up for longer term options. And at the end of the day, there are very few crappy 3 bedroom starter homes left in the crappy part of north center.

    “JMM on August 15th, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    I call BS on HD’s last statement. Housing is viewed as more transient nowadays, which is a big part of the problem in the first place. People are just paying up for longer term options. Very few picture themselves in their early 50s with a senior in high school in one of the 3 bedroom starter homes in the crappy part of north center.”

  14. BettyBoop says:

    Yes agree HD’s statement was off base because he named almost every demographic as an “outlier”: “single women; homosexual couples; DINKS, perpetual bachelors, divorcees; but combined that’s a small minority of the population.”

    It’s almost the whole population!

  15. JMM says:

    “You’re BS”

    Fine but I will take BS over your myopia and stupidity. Sure, I live in a house where I can send my children to a high school which pays for my property taxes 4x over considering what dopes pay in the city if their children aren’t savants. So yes, I can stay here forever — where else would I go. I can also stay here because I don’t have rapes, armed robberies and countless property crimes in my neighborhood which is exactly what you have even in the best of the city neighborhoods.

    There are plenty of crappy homes all over acceptable north side neighborhoods for sale. But trust me, very few buying them are expecting to stay there for more than 10 years. Same thing as a condo, just a different stage in life. Why do you think there are so many nice homes on the market in the first place? People locking in solid RE gains? Yeah right…

  16. homedelete says:

    “countless property crimes in my neighborhood which is exactly what you have even in the best of the city neighborhoods. ”

    AGain, complete and utter bull fucking shit. edison park, all of 60646, other areas of the NW side, are quiet districts with property crime as nothing more than teenagers breaking into garages once in a while.

    “Why do you think there are so many nice homes on the market in the first place? People locking in solid RE gains? Yeah right…”

    A lot of it is affordability.

  17. JMM says:

    HD forgets that the vast majority of north side housing stock was built for lower middle class blue collar labors. Jobs that do not exist today at factories that have been gone for a generation or more. Their layouts are compromised and their construction is highly questionable. Cheap frame houses don’t last. They are ok for a few years while kids are small, but aren’t workable for many (I’d say most). Even older homes on the north shore built around the same time have lots of issues, and these were built for very wealthy people and took, on average, 2x more time to complete.

    Yet no one can afford newer, so they compromise. For now.

  18. JMM says:

    “AGain, complete and utter bull fucking shit. edison park, all of 60646, other areas of the NW side, are quiet districts with property crime as nothing more than teenagers breaking into garages once in a while”

    Which shows how dumb you are. Edison Park is no more a part of Chicago than Evanston is part of the north shore. Edison Park is nothing short of Park Ridge for municipal and city employees.

    And since you are addicted to this forum, maybe you should realize that the preponderant subject of discussion here is neighborhoods on the El or close to the El. Half the people who read this blog don’t know where Edison Park is, let alone have been there. Hell, half of the post here seem to be about Lakeview, which by the way has played recent host to several rapes, a mob mauling and several armed robberies in the last month alone.

  19. anonny says:

    “Half the people who read this blog don’t know where Edison Park is, let alone have been there.”

    I think we know which half I’m in.

    While some aspects of HD’s comment above (re: the outlook for 2/2 condos) might be a bit on the strident and unnuanced side (i.e., JMM is correct that, even today, many buyers don’t plan to live in a place for very long), I’d say he’s mostly right. The subject property is Exhibit A for the rule that (at least for now), outside of the most expensive hoods, one should only buy a SFH.

  20. JMM says:

    “one should only buy a SFH”

    And lose more money? How about: avoid Chicago real estate period. Nice that Emanuel has pledged not to raise city taxes to fund his DB obligations, but I am guessing that goes in vain. Chicago fundamentally lacks high school options of any reasonable sort, which basically puts a 10 year time horizon max on even the most optimistic “living the city dream” families. That you have people paying 25k to send their children to foreign themed school is evidence enough of the dearth of good schooling options.

  21. Endora says:

    I have been on vacation: is the real home delete back?

  22. danny (lower case D) says:

    JMM… how is Evanston not part of the northshore? It is north. And it is on the shore.

  23. anonny says:

    “And lose more money? How about: avoid Chicago real estate period.”

    Sure, if one doesn’t want to live here. But if one does, are you suggesting that residents rent until death? I’m not saying that such an approach might not be a good one, it’s just that it’s the only one that would be consistent with the approach you’re advocating. Or were you implying that the prudent choice is to purchase in a Chicago area suburb?

    Personally, I don’t see much (i.e., a material) cost difference between (1) living in a 3 bedroom (condo, TH or rowhouse) in ELP or a 3 bedroom condo in the northeast GC, while putting as many as two kids through Parker/Latin/Lab/British and (2) living in a 4 bedroom house east of Green Bay road within the NT district. I’d concede that option (1) may cost more (assuming about $600k is spent on K – 12 tuition), but the taxes will be a bit less than option (2), plus there’s the fact that, for those who work in the Loop, at least one hour per day in commute time is saved under option (1).

  24. JMM says:

    “It is north. And it is on the shore.”

    Just like Waukegan right?

  25. Bob says:

    “And they are paying up for longer term options. ”

    No, they’re mostly not. You’re just projecting.

    Watch the valuation carnage spread to closer to the brown line stops in NC. I have to point that out because thats the only part of it you seem to recognize. Because you are, in fact, an asshat.

  26. Bob says:

    “JMM… how is Evanston not part of the northshore? It is north. And it is on the shore.”

    Demographics/crime. Basically a lot of the demographic that causes a lot of crime in Evanston.

  27. Bob says:

    “And lose more money? How about: avoid Chicago real estate period. ”

    I’m going to avoid it unless it’s distressed. I’m seeing some distressed properties lately that are cheaper than renting.

  28. JMM says:

    Anonny, you pull your head out of your ass and look at what a 4 bedroom house costs, even east of Green Bay. I will even give you a 5 br.

    Compare this:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Winnetka/335-Fairview-Ave-60093/home/13785210

    With this:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1907-N-Cleveland-Ave-60614/unit-A/home/12567060

    The LP townhouse’s taxes will get marked to the same level as Winnetka in the next cycle, trust me on that. So taxes will be similar (levy rates are close and not enough to move the dial). Purchase price is less yet you get another bedroom, a garage, a yard, a school grade, middle and high school within walking distance, a park within walking distance, the lake within walking distance where beaches are closed only due to effluent and not acts of mob violence.

    So on all dimensions the Winnetka home is superior before you pay for the elite private school your child cannot even get into. And forget about sports if you live in the city.

    All so you can walk to a restaurant or save 20 minutes commuting in the morning? Most people who have the kind of money to purchase a circa $1M place at a younger age generally are dictating their own schedules in a few years anyway. So does commute really matter? Only for middle management chumps, right?

  29. JMM says:

    “Watch the valuation carnage spread to closer to the brown line stops in NC.”

    In fact the comment was silent on valuation. Comment merely suggested buyers trading higher to provide longer runway. Hence, paying up.

    Sorry but you’ve got the wrong guy for vituperatives today. Chicago RE can go to zero as long as those rents stay high. 2.50 sq ft here we come!

  30. Bob says:

    Beautiful homes for homedelete that are more in his price range so he can fulfill his fantasy of a SFH in north center. First lets do some condos.

    Address,Layout,Ask Price, MLS, SWPL Excuse why its unlivable
    3129 N Western, 2/1, 93k, 07866424, Oh no it’s on Western!
    1801 Larchmont, 1/1, 139k,07824286, BANK OWNED & too small!
    2933 N Clybourn, 149k, 07772850, Oh no its on Clybourn!
    2956 N Oakley, 2-flat, 169k, 07578084, Look at this pics on this one lol.
    2425 W Fletcher, 2/1 house, 189k, 07675491, too small, ugly color, short sale, WEST of WESTERN(!)–HD has champagne taste but a miller highlife budget remember?
    3619 N Cambell, 3/2, 200k, 07853600, short sale, west of western(!) (doesn’t count as north center to SWPLs like homedelete).
    2867 N Clybourn, fully rented 2-flat (2) 2/1s, 220k, 07839034, Oh no it’s on Clybourn!
    2429 W Fletcher, 3/1 house, 230k, 07811064, kinda small, west of western
    3513 N Western, all brick 2-flat, 250k, 07872278, on western! it scares me! my kid is too dumb he’ll get hit by a car!
    2422 W Wellington, 3/1 house-1800sf, 259k, 07632978, the tree in front scares me!

    Looks like there is plenty of housing and a lot of it distressed, pissant. GTFOOH HD.

  31. Bob says:

    “Chicago RE can go to zero as long as those rents stay high”

    Might just shake out that way. Chicago RE valuations had baked into it a transient factor as you said. Too many people had baked into their assumptions that they’ll resell their overpriced property to someone else then hightail it out to the burbs when the kids need a quality education. Now that can’t do that but they’re still hightailing it out to the burbs, resulting in mass distress. The ponzi scheme is over.

  32. EB says:

    With the stock market crumbling again and talk about increasing down payments there finally may be capitulation in real estate. It’s kind of exciting and even enjoyable for me as a renter.

    Cash purchases have been helping hold up the real estate market. If these people take a huge hit in their stock holdings like many are projecting the wealthy are not going to be spending their cash on more real estate at present prices. (Of course the fact that many are warning of impending stock market doom may mean it will never happen.) With increased down payments removing the rest of the competition, first time buyers with a 20% down payment can finally enjoy the thrill of owning a home at a reasonable price.

    If distressed prices fall another 20% I think that will factor in the future increases in local and state real estate taxes that as of yet have not been priced in. That could occur next spring. I’d love to spend $150 on a newer 2/2 in the South Loop. A renter can dream anyway.

  33. Bob says:

    “I’d love to spend $150 on a newer 2/2 in the South Loop. A renter can dream anyway.”

    You already can in the near north side (a 2/1.5 anyway). Short sale though.

  34. DZ says:

    “Beautiful homes for homedelete that are more in his price range so he can fulfill his fantasy of a SFH in north center.”

    For realz for HD. It’s in Bell, plenty of room, extra wide lot. Ok, it’s west of western but so are plenty of ~$1MM homes in Bell. And ok, not perfect condition or commute, but take the money you were planning on putting toward catholic school and do some reno or pay for parking in loop. Walking distance, or so anon says, to lincoln sq and roscoe village.

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2446-W-Byron-St-60618/home/13452688

  35. gringozecarioca says:

    “Chicago RE can go to zero as long as those rents stay high”

    Can’t work that way forever.

    “there finally may be capitulation in real estate”

    Feels like it. I enjoy watching it from the owners side as well. Very entertaining.

  36. homedelete says:

    2446 w bryon: That’ll be gone pretty quickly. Orinally listed fsbo but now with a realtor it finally has a change of selling, and probably quickly too. only in a decent school dist will a $400k bungalow sell.

  37. Nat says:

    DZ – That place will be going under contract shortly, right?

  38. clio says:

    Nothing is ever as bad or good as it seems. Places like the subject property WILL be bought by an investor. Who cares if young people aren’t buying anymore – if they still want to live in the area (and, judging by this website, they do – nobody wants to move to the suburbs) what are they going to do? RENT – it is only logical that they will pay a premium for rentals (because that is only what will be available).

    A similar thing happened when my house in Atherton burned down. I needed to rent a place – however, because rental demand was SO high (because nobody could afford to buy in the area) rents were astronomical. I ended up renting a 1 bedroom for 3900/month – ….in…..REDWOOD CITY!!!!! The same thing is going to happen in Chicago. You will have all these people in their 20s and 30s not wanting to buy but wanting to live in the city – and they WILL cough up the cash.

  39. kc08 says:

    This place is competing with newer 2/2 with newer finishes and ensuite baths. This place needs work. Most people are not going to like the Menard’s kitchen. The overall bad decorating stifles imaginations of people who don’t have one. This place is NOT indicative of 2/2s in the GZ

  40. Sabrina says:

    “You will have all these people in their 20s and 30s not wanting to buy but wanting to live in the city – and they WILL cough up the cash.”

    Really? Starting salaries are, what, $30,000 a year? So maybe two people each earning $60,000 a year will rent this. What is the rent you’re charging then?

  41. Sabrina says:

    “while putting as many as two kids through Parker/Latin/Lab/British”

    I love how everyone assumes their child will just magically get into the best private schools – even if they DO have the money to send them there. What if your child is autistic or otherwise has some kind of learning disability?

    I know a teacher in one of the nicer suburbs who has taught grade school for 25 years. By the third grade they start to get the kids who “didn’t work out” at the local Catholic school (for behavior problems, mostly.) These are upper middle class kids.

    The private schools don’t have to take your child and they don’t have to keep your child. And many times they won’t- if it’s just not working correctly (i.e. if they have to do ANYTHING out of the ordinary to educate that child.) Why keep a child that is “difficult”, right?

    So if all your children are perfect in every way to get into the trifecta of great Chicago private schools- then good for you. But the vast majority of parents would be better off in the suburbs. It’s really not that horrible living in Winnetka or Glencoe or, yes, even Naperville or LaGrange. There are perfectly good restaurants in all those cities. And in Glencoe, they have that amazing beach that is accessible to all Glencoe residents.

  42. Sabrina says:

    “Nice that Emanuel has pledged not to raise city taxes to fund his DB obligations, but I am guessing that goes in vain. Chicago fundamentally lacks high school options of any reasonable sort, which basically puts a 10 year time horizon max on even the most optimistic “living the city dream” families.’

    That’s just to balance the budget for THIS year. Chicago’s pension obligations are underfunded by over $14 billion. The state legislature already passed the law that the cities must get their house in order starting in 2014- which means, according to the last calculations I saw, that they expect city of Chicago property taxes to basically double. Why do you think Daley ran off into his retirement? Who wants to deal with THAT?

  43. Sabrina says:

    “Hell, half of the post here seem to be about Lakeview, which by the way has played recent host to several rapes, a mob mauling and several armed robberies in the last month alone.”

    Where have the several rapes been?

    I did a google news search and there haven’t been any reported. Nothing reported for many months.

    Let’s not get hysterical.

  44. Sabrina says:

    “Edison Park is nothing short of Park Ridge for municipal and city employees.”

    Who’s buying the $400k, $500k and $600k houses in this neighborhood then? Same with Oriole Park and Old Norwood Park. Same with Edgebrook and Sauganash.

    That’s a LOT of highly paid municipal and city employees apparently.

  45. clio says:

    ” It’s really not that horrible living in Winnetka or Glencoe or, yes, even Naperville or LaGrange”

    This statement is what is wrong with the younger generation. You are so arrogant to suggest that these places are “2nd choice” places – believe me, the vast majority of people in the chicagoland area would be absolutely lucky to live in such places. Soon when these younger people (like HD) really start looking for houses, they soon realize how spoiled they really are and understand that they can’t afford shit. Only then will they understand that living in those suburbs is NOT a 2nd choice – but a dream. However, as a renter without kids you don’t get it yet.

  46. clio says:

    Ridiculous for anyone to stay in chicago when you have school aged kids. This is an unbelievable deal in hinsdale. When you have houses like this in EXTREMELY good school districts (which are free), how can chicago compare?

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Hinsdale/5706-Astony-Ct-60521/home/18020404

  47. Bob says:

    “Places like the subject property WILL be bought by an investor.”

    Yes but at _what price_? Amateur investors who buy just to amass a real estate mini-trump empire during the boom, are getting fleeced. Going forward investors are going to want two things from properties:

    1) immediate positive cash-flow.
    2) enough of a deal to provide some downside protection if prices keep falling.

    ” It’s really not that horrible living in Winnetka or Glencoe or, yes, even Naperville or LaGrange”

    Lets not get top-tier north shore suburbs like Wilmette, Winnetka or Glencoe confused with plain jane ones like Naperville, Schaumburg or Wheaton.

    People from the latter burbs and I know many, are local yokels–getting drunk at On The Border on a Sunday is their idea of fun. You could take them and put them in any other smaller midwest town and they’d be fine.

  48. Bob says:

    Clio that house is still 700 large. 700 grand is a lot of money to the vast majority of people. Even people on this site are aiming lower on the property ladder than 700k. 700k buys you a lot in any good school district in Chicagoland.

  49. clio says:

    ” Even people on this site are aiming lower on the property ladder than 700k.”

    uhhh – no they are not – if they truly realized they can only afford a 300-400k house they would accept the fact that they absolutely need to move to the suburbs – but people here either CAN afford 700k+ or they are living in fool’s paradise.

  50. Bob says:

    “or they are living in fool’s paradise.”

    Depends on their kid situation, really and whether they could hack it in the city with kids. I suspect the majority can’t as they aren’t from the city (myself included).

    Those that grew up in the city likely know how to work the system. Those whose are transplants or whose parents fled the city and raised them in leafy spacious suburbs in newer housing with modern amenities I don’t see hacking it.

    Even if people on here want to act like they’re sophisticated urbanites even us adults are a product of our environment and we’d expect a similar quality of upbringing for our children that we ourselves were afforded. One exception will be those that have to hack it will–ie: municipal workers.

    I look out over the economy, Illinois government and Chicago government in particular and I don’t see a burgeoning middle class aside from the servants of the machine. It’s just not tenable for middle class families to want to live here that don’t have to.

    Don’t get me wrong the city happily welcomes the single professionals to live here and takes their tax dollars. But don’t expect a level of government service commensurate with what you pay in.

  51. Sabrina says:

    Clio- that IS an interesting price for that much house in Hinsdale. It last sold for $975,000 according to redfin.

    $700,000 barely gets you a house in Blaine anymore. Or it can get you a 3-bedroom duplex down (also in Blaine.) Those seem to be selling fairly easily.

    So once you start having the “best” suburban school districts pricing at $400k to $700k for some pretty large houses- it definitely IS competition for most of the city neighborhoods (in my opinion.)

    From some parts of Hinsdale, you would have a faster commute via Metra then you would for a vast majority of the brown line riders (if public transportation floats your boat.)

  52. Sabrina says:

    “plain jane ones like Naperville, Schaumburg or Wheaton.”

    Before Juliana shows up- I did not say “schaumburg or wheaton.”

    Naperville is one of the oldest “suburbs” in the Chicagoland area and is NOT schaumburg, streamwood, plainfield etc. Please visit these places before you comment. Actually, Wheaton is also quite old and has wonderful downtown historic mansions near the train line. Neither one is plain jane or vanilla if you live near the train lines (similarly- west highland park is as “vanilla” as parts of Naperville.)

  53. Valbie says:

    I guess I’m the single / divorced lady with cats. And I know what I’m looking at, and I know what I’m scared of. And although I have buying power, I’m probably sitting this out.

  54. Sabrina says:

    Valbie- so you’ve decided to simply rent even though you could buy?

    Is that because you think prices have further to fall?

  55. Bob says:

    It could be that the taxman is going to see property owners with a big financial crosshare on their backs in our one party machine.

  56. clio says:

    “It could be that the taxman is going to see property owners with a big financial crosshare on their backs in our one party machine.”

    That cost will be shared by all (owners AND renters) – or do you still believe that owners will just swallow the increased taxes?

  57. Bob says:

    “That cost will be shared by all (owners AND renters) – or do you still believe that owners will just swallow the increased taxes?”

    The extent to how the burden will be split will depend on who has more leverage. Renters are far more mobile than owners these days.

  58. Sabrina says:

    Bob- it doesn’t matter that it’s a “one party machine.” Totally republican cities and municipalities will face the same doubling of taxes to pay for their underfunded pension plans as well (and some towns, according to the Tribune’s recent reports, are in even more dire straits than the city of Chicago as a percentage of the people who live there.)

    Taxes are going to go up for everyone. But the renters are in a better position to at least be able to move- and move they will.

  59. gringozecarioca says:

    “That cost will be shared by all (owners AND renters) – or do you still believe that owners will just swallow the increased taxes?”

    It’s a possibility that the owners eat it all as a price loss in order to keep the rent/expense parity equal. So it is ‘definitely’ possible.

  60. Valbie says:

    My 2/2 has been on the market for a year. Brick! Upgrades. haha It’s reasonably priced, so they tell me, for west town. Doesn’t matter. I agree, the 2/2 market sucks rocks. Everyone is scared now.
    The market for this place is people who need a place to live (which I did when I bought it) or looking for that steal. Mine is going to have to appeal to those dink no kids, lesbian couples, divorcees with cats (cheers), or whatever the other ones were. It’s a nice place and blocks from blue line, but that really doesn’t matter now unless someone falls in love.
    I can buy “up” but I’m wary. The current hysteria towards renting isn’t what I want, but what I have to live with. I’m in dealings for a TH but I’d really rather rent it than buy at this time.It would not be a long term investment and I never want to feel as trapped as I do now.

  61. tomm says:

    “(and, judging by this website, they do – nobody wants to move to the suburbs) what are they going to do? RENT -”

    Sure, but rents are going up, and how long can current 20-somethings live like frat kids, getting wasted every weekend and crawling home or falling into cabs? So many think that they are ‘entitled’ to live in ‘Green Zone’ and nowhere else and rents go up and up

    Meanwhile many other people are opting to move, out of state. Thus, IL loses one member of House Of Rep. in Congress. All the elite ‘GZ’ bragging can’t change that.

    Some balance has to be brought back to Chicago cost of living, period.

  62. Madeline says:

    Never cross a hare, Bob.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

    Regarding the subject property: Kind of meh. Not enough vintage elements to feel really vintage; but not new enough to feel new.

    The exterior is lovely, though. The building looks very well maintained. (It even has what appears to be the original cornice.)

  63. Bob says:

    “Totally republican cities and municipalities will face the same doubling of taxes to pay for their underfunded pension plans as well”

    It depends. Where you have tea party politicians like Scott Walker in Wisconsin they’re willing to stand up to bloated expenses and try to address them. Its not easy but at least there is hope in areas like that.

  64. Bob says:

    “It’s a nice place and blocks from blue line”

    How long can the fantasy that proximity to the el be maintained and huge premiums along with? How many problems are with the blue line with regard to cleanliness or delays? How old are those cabs on the blue line? Oh yeah 42 years old.
    I’d say thats a bit older than the vast majority of the target market who places a premium on living near there. Its a joke.

  65. endora says:

    Sabrina/ Clio–

    I don’t entirely disagree with you, but . . .your analysis forgets one important point, a point I’ll admit I keep raising on this site:

    A lot of working, professional women want to live in the city, and raise their kids there, so that they are not spending 3 hours a day commuting to a suburb like Naperville (1.5 hours door-to-door each way. Trust me, I know.)

    I’ll put myself up as a case in point: we live with 3 kids in a 2 bedroom townhome and pay a small fortune for their education each year (no way I’d let them be educated by CPS, but that is a different thread!).

    We choose to live this way so that 1) I can see my kids each day (and not just spend ‘quality’ time with them and 2) keep my job, which I enjoy. I know many women who have made similar choices.

    I think Naperville etc are fine choices for people who have one spouse who works and the other who stays home (or at least works in a nearby burb). It is not realistic for two parents who work and who want to enjoy any sort of quality of life. For me, quality of life is measured more by the amount of stress in my life (commuting) and the time that I get to spend with my kids than it is by the size of my house.

  66. miumiu says:

    “For me, quality of life is measured more by the amount of stress in my life (commuting) and the time that I get to spend with my kids than it is by the size of my house.”

    exactly!

  67. Vlajos says:

    “It depends. Where you have tea party politicians like Scott Walker in Wisconsin they’re willing to stand up to bloated expenses and try to address them. Its not easy but at least there is hope in areas like that.”

    Yeah right. He may be recalled and will almost certainly lose a reelection campaign if he makes it through the recall.

  68. Vlajos says:

    Endora, I agree with most of what you wrote, except the CPS school thing. There are plenty of good neighborhood schools, you can save that small fortune quite easily.

  69. clio says:

    endora,

    I completely understand what you are saying, but you may be missing several opportunities. For example, let’s say that you make 100k in the city and your partner makes 100k in the city (combined income of 200k) – obviously a great income that can allow you to live in a townhouse and send your kids to private schools. Now, think about the alternatives. Maybe you and your partner could look into getting a job in the suburbs – sure you may take a pay cut – but 125-150k in the suburbs might be able to buy you a BETTER lifestyle than you have in the city. Too many people don’t think “out of the box” and miss several opportunities.

  70. homedelete says:

    I was just in wisconsin, and outside of Madison and Milwaukee, the state loves him. I was with an employee from wi public radio and even they have admitted, on air too, that the removal of collective bargaining has been helpful for balancing budgets all across the state. Collective bargaining is gone, and other than some hard core unionists in madison and milwaukee, walker is a savior.

  71. clio says:

    Anyone who moves out of state because of a temporary decline in the economy or moves into a state because of the current administration is completely immature in their thinking. People NEED to think long term. Things are NOT going to be good all the time. You have to have staying power to be successful. Too many people are risk averse – without some risk, you are never going to succeed

  72. Vlajos says:

    I am in WI all the time. My wife is from there and her family still lives there. Walker is hated.

  73. Bob says:

    vlajos put down the new York times. the majority of the state loves him and the Republican legislature survived a recall election last week despite the unions from out of state chipping in 32 million dollars on attack ads. you obviously don’t understand a silent majority & you probably watch bill Maher.

  74. juliana says:

    I have commuted from Naperville several times this summer, and, sorry to disagree, but it never takes me more than an hour door-to-door. 15 minutes from my house to the station, 35 minutes on the train. Now, if you live on the south side its a longer drive and if you take a non-express train its a longer train ride, but not everybody in Naperville has your problem. Trust me.

    “A lot of working, professional women want to live in the city, and raise their kids there, so that they are not spending 3 hours a day commuting to a suburb like Naperville (1.5 hours door-to-door each way. Trust me, I know.)”

  75. Bob says:

    walker is hated by the parasites who disproportionately benefit from suckling the taxpayer teet. that I will give you. he is doing exactly what he ran on & somehow he got elected.

  76. Bob says:

    cook county one party government is why garbage men working for the city earn more than lawyers who also work for the city. yes things can get more insane here & property owners will be considered as a potential cookie jar.

  77. homedelete says:

    My family and my inlaws love him and they all live in wisconsin. A handful of ‘recall walker’ signs in Madison does not reflect the attitude of the entire state.

  78. Vlajos says:

    My in laws don’t live in Madison. They live near Green Bay. He won’t make it more than 4 yrs in office.

  79. Vlajos says:

    Bob, if the majority of WI voters love him why do recent polls show Walker losing in a rematch against Barrett? Wake up asshat

  80. Groove77 says:

    “Now, if you live on the south side its a longer drive and if you take a non-express train its a longer train ride, but not everybody in Naperville has your problem. Trust me”

    sure i can move there now and bypass the four year wait list for a parking spot at the metra station.

    and 15 minutes from the house to the station. 35 from station to station. then 15 minutes from station to a seat at your desk.

    even if you worked at union station my math has you at 50 minutes which is an hour really.

    my commute from ass on breakfast table chair to my ass on desk chair is less than your train ride…I WIN :)

  81. clio says:

    “my commute from ass on breakfast table chair to my ass on desk chair is less than your train ride…I WIN”

    and you live in a crappy house and your kids go to crappy schools – you lose!!!

  82. Bob says:

    sorry vlajos majority of polls have a liberal bias. excluding Rasmussen. but the election is not today. if the ecpnomy still sucks on election day he probably won’t get re-elected but it will have little to do with how he stood up to the unions. and in the long run the taxpayers of WI are better off for having his administration.

  83. Vlajos says:

    And why live in Naperville, when you can live in Chicago?

  84. DZ says:

    “I have commuted from Naperville several times this summer, and, sorry to disagree, but it never takes me more than an hour door-to-door. 15 minutes from my house to the station, 35 minutes on the train.”

    Is that a true door-to-door from the time you left to when you arrived, including wait time at station? And walk time from the station to the office can be long for some people depending on where you live. You’re also on a schedule, so that you can only leave on the half hour or whatever the frequency of express trains to Naperville, and more problematically if you’re traveling off peak.

    The few times I’ve taken metra to la grange or thereabouts, I’ve also been annoyed at spottiness of wireless broadband coverage.

  85. endora says:

    Juliana,
    You *must* be only talking about express trains which only run, what, during peak rush hour times and then only what, 4 times a day? If you don’t make the express train it is 50+ minutes, right? (More, I think). Not everyone’s work schedule is so predictable as to allow always making the express. And Groove is right about parking at the station and then the commute from Union to the office.

    Taking the train a few times during the summer is not the same as taking it every day, day in, day out.

  86. Dan #2 says:

    Sabrina,

    Thanks for your comment on Wheaton not being Plainfield. Every time my area (the North Shore) gets mentioned, someone is on here saying they wouldn’t live in the land of strip malls and chain restaurants. They equate Highland Park with Schaumburg.

    First of all, there are strip malls and chain restaurants in the city, even in the “Green zone.” Second, the North Shore in no way resembles Schaumburg, and if you haven’t spent time in a place, don’t criticize it.

  87. Vlajos says:

    “if the ecpnomy still sucks on election day he probably won’t get re-elected”

    I can agree with this, but that’s about it. You sound like an idiot when you say polls are biased. Some are, most aren’t. Rasmussen is very biased… up until the week before an election when his numbers magically converge with all other polls.

  88. endora says:

    Juliana,

    I just checked the schedule. If you don’t make an express train, it is one hour and 15 minutes ON THE TRAIN from Naperville to Union. This does not include getting to the station or from the station to the office.

  89. Bob says:

    vlajos if the polls now aren’t biased how did the Republican majority survive the recall? also you are a fool to make such a statement on Rasmussen when he leaves up his historical polling data up on his site. something other pollsters don’t dare do. but keep living in denial believing your opinion represents the majority if you want. shows what a fool you are.

  90. Vlajos says:

    Bob, what polls showed the republican majority survive the recall? The only polls I saw, done by PPP, showed the dems winning two and likely losing 4.

    Rasmussen plays a game with his polls and is very biased.

  91. Groove77 says:

    “and you live in a crappy house and your kids go to crappy schools – you lose!!!”

    you are correct again, i have no retort as your wisdom continues to prove true time and time again.

  92. Groove77 says:

    “And Groove is right about parking at the station and then the commute from Union to the office. ”

    this is usually the case (me being right), i think the libertyville station also has a rough wait list like The Naperville.

    then again endora makes a huge point. DONT MISS THE EXPRESS!!! i can say it doenst matter what time i leave its still the same time ass to ass.

  93. Valbie says:

    I appreciate being less than 15 minutes from my kid. When I lived downtown and worked in the burbs it was an awful feeling to get that call if she got sick at school.

  94. anonny says:

    endora’s point about both parents working is a huge factor for many families. Sure, there are some opportunties for professional work in the burbs, but not as much as within the city. Heck, I’m not even the primary caregiver, yet I greatly value being able to hop in a cab during the workday and either get home or to my kid’s school or doctor within about 12 minutes, should the need arise (which it has).

    I’m not ruling out a move to Evanston or even Wilmette. But beyond that, and especially once people start “seeking opportunities” in the burbs (essentially, making their burb the center of their professional, social, recreational and cultural lives), there are simply other regions of this country that must then become a part of the decision making process.

  95. Vlajos says:

    “I’m not ruling out a move to Evanston or even Wilmette. But beyond that, and especially once people start “seeking opportunities” in the burbs (essentially, making their burb the center of their professional, social, recreational and cultural lives), there are simply other regions of this country that must then become a part of the decision making process.”

    Well put

  96. Sonies says:

    yes we have all had the discussion here about the commute from naperville

    and also a discussion about how much wheaton sucks (I grew up there, sorta)

    and how much more house you can get in the burbs

    and how Chicago is doomed to high taxes and whatever

    and the one party machine will doom us all down the line

    blah blah blah blah

  97. Luigi says:

    These buildings should’ve stayed as rentals. They’re older and have always been good post-college rentals. The location is close to Vic Theater for the alternative rocker crowd and close to The Alley and the el, etc. Too bad Muskie’s is closed, that was for the late night drunks.

    “…and especially once people start “seeking opportunities” in the burbs (essentially, making their burb the center of their professional, social, recreational and cultural lives), there are simply other regions of this country that must then become a part of the decision making process.”

    Interesting point, when I moved to Chicago from the Pacfic Northwest, it was Chicago proper or nothing. I recall thinking that living in a lame suburb, then commuting to and working in an office building in the O’Hare submarket would be the definition of midwest hell. Many just fall into that trap anyway.

  98. Sonies says:

    yeah if i’m going to live in the stupid burbs, it better be somewhere with nice weather, but then again you have to deal with people who live in nice weather climates, I dont know which is worse

  99. Bob says:

    great if I wind up in wilmette I gotta worry about anonny being my Ned Flanders. just great

  100. Vlajos says:

    “yeah if i’m going to live in the stupid burbs, it better be somewhere with nice weather, but then again you have to deal with people who live in nice weather climates, I dont know which is worse”

    Another good point.

  101. Dan #2 says:

    Luigi,

    I knew someone would say what I always here on this site about suburban living, and sure enough, you did.

    Yes – there are a lot of lame suburbs. And yes, an O’Hare-area office building would be a depressing place to work. But not all suburban living/working arrangements equate to that.

  102. anon (tfo) says:

    “they expect city of Chicago property taxes to basically double.”

    For the Nth time here, the “doubling” is of just the City’s piece of p-tax, which means a ~15% bump in the worst case scenario.

    And only one thing to say about Wisc–if Walker seriously had a philosophical point about public employee unions, he would have taken collective bargaining away from cops and firemen, too. But, since it was just about de-funding unions who contribute to Dems, he didn’t take CB away from the cops and the firemen. Totally ridiculous politics over policy situation.

  103. Luigi says:

    Cops and firemen are pro-GOP tea partyers now? Since when?

    Cops and firemen always get special treatment, that’s the way it is, like their low retirement age because the poor chaps have a “dangerous job”. nobody forced them to choose that job, they volunteered and know the risks.

  104. Bob says:

    I used to live in a smaller Midwest towns burb & chose to live near work. For the family oriented it was awesome. 10min commute & you can raise a family on one income. I think pink Floyd said it best about you progressives: you think you’re a laugh but you’re really a cry. Yea it did suck for the single though unless you enjoyed spending Friday nights watching HS football.

  105. homedelete says:

    Anon: just for shits and giggles, how far would $200k go towards fixing up this dump?

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/3942-N-Lowell-Ave-60641/home/13459089

    I’m always trying to learn the construction side to things, due to the nature of my profession, my hands are very soft and nimble and I’ve never done manual labor in my life, other than pushing carts for dominicks when I was 16 years old. So hence I know jack about labor or it’s costs.

  106. gringozecarioca says:

    the true cost of commuting is enormous. Driving even worse than train.

  107. anon (tfo) says:

    “Cops and firemen are pro-GOP”

    In Wisc, their unions (largely) are. And the point was that the “need” to eliminate CB was based on BS. You have a problem with public employee CB (note that I, in fact, do have a problem with it), then you have a problem with all of it, not just some.

  108. clio says:

    HD – the breakdown of the costs would be as follows:

    40-50k – demolition
    15-25k – architect plans
    400-1000k new house

    Honestly, why the f would you want to renovate that POS? It would cost in the hundreds of thousands (probably 300k plus to make it nice). More importantly, you will likely need that in cash (no mortgage buffer).

  109. anon (tfo) says:

    Hd:

    Do i get to assume that no $$ for structural/foundation work and that you’d leave the basement basically as-is? If so, you could make the rest of the place look very nice for $200k.

  110. homedelete says:

    Clio – hahhah! You’re probably right. I’m not looking to renovate that dump, not at all, I’m just trying to learn from others the construction side of things. I know plenty of things about real estate, but I’ve never had the opportunity to learn the construction side, most of what i’ve learned is from here.

  111. homedelete says:

    Some schools dropping union health plans are saving money
    By Rich Kremer
    Monday, August 15th, 2011

    (HUDSON) The Hudson School District will save more than $1 million per year by dropping its union-run health insurance program. Hudson is one of several school districts in Wisconsin making this change.

    For the past 25 years the Hudson district bought its health insurance from WEA Trust, a subsidiary of the state teachers union, Wisconsin Educators Association Counsel. Before Gov. Scott Walker’s changes to collective bargaining powers, insurance benefits in the Hudson District were not subject to competitive bids. But this week, the school board voted unanimously to drop WEA Trust as their insurance provider. Superintendent Mary Bowen-Eggebraaten says the district is faced with more than $2 million cuts from the state and dropping WEA insurance will ease the pain, “Without the budget repair bill we would not have been able to address it without making significant additional reductions in our budget.”

    But Bowen-Eggebraaten says they still had to cover an additional $1 million in their budget by reducing operational costs and cutting some staff. Barry Forbes of the Wisconsin Association of School Boards says the Hudson district’s decision is part of a larger trend, “We see school districts across the state of Wisconsin taking a hard look at their insurance.”

    Forbes says prior to the collective bargaining changes many districts’ hands were tied when it came to bargaining for insurance, “Unless the union was willing to participate in the competitive bidding process there was really no point in entering into a competitive bidding process.”

    Forbes says despite the savings associated with changing their insurance providers it’s still a difficult time for school boards, administrations and employees.

    http://wpr.org/news/newsheadlines.cfm

  112. Bob says:

    I agree anon. But at least he got the ball rolling & Wisconsin will still be a swing state so next time the dems take over they can go after the police & firefighters unions.

  113. homedelete says:

    I would assume there is foundational and structural issues; it looks like there is major water damage and the ceiling is collapsing in at least one room.

    “anon (tfo) on August 16th, 2011 at 10:22 am

    Hd:

    Do i get to assume that no $$ for structural/foundation work and that you’d leave the basement basically as-is? If so, you could make the rest of the place look very nice for $200k.”

  114. chukdotcom says:

    “40-50k – demolition”

    20-25k

    “400-1000k new house”

    200-300k

  115. Dan #2 says:

    Driving vs. the train for me – no question driving is easier and more economical, though it wouldn’t be for everyone.

    I live and work on the North Shore, and my home is about 10 miles from work. I drive a Prius. At 40 MPG, it means I use roughly 2.5 gallons a week for commuting. Multiply that by about 50 weeks a year that I work, and that’s 125 gallons a year. Even at $4 a gallon, you’re talking $500. I was paying about $1,200 a year to take the train downtown back when I worked there.

    Yes, you could say maintenance on the car (and buying it in the first place) means a car is far more costly. However, my car needs little maintenance. Definitely not enough to make up for the difference in what I’m saving in train fare.

    Fact is, I’d probably own a car even if I didn’t need it for the commute, so counting the initial purchase price against me wouldn’t be fair. I suppose some could live without a car, if they live in Lincoln Park, let’s say. But even when I lived there, I found a car was necessary.

    Then there’s the non-financial factors. No freezing on the platform in January waiting for late trains. No being stuffed on crowded, hot train cars with sweaty people coming back from the Taste. Freedom to leave home when I want and not be tied to a train schedule. Etc.

    I realize I’m in the perfect position re. work/home distance and location, and I have a hybrid, so this wouldn’t apply to everyone. I’d never advocate driving downtown from the suburbs every day. But for some people, driving to work does make more sense than train, and I doubt I’m alone.

  116. clio says:

    chukdotcom –

    you obviously have never done renovation/building work in chicago.

    demo will absolutely be at least 40k

    building prices for a house in chicago are absolutely over 150/sq ft – so even a 2500 sq ft house will be 375k AT THE MINIMUM

  117. Groove77 says:

    “Do i get to assume that no $$ for structural/foundation work and that you’d leave the basement basically as-is? ”

    like anon(ufo) says, 200k and not going overboard will have you a darn decent place to live and with C/A forced air heat if you prefer. and a nice back deck.

    your main costs will be updating electrical, new mechanicals, kitchen. no if your looking to change up floor plans then that will eat your costs.

    you wont really save $$$ by staying with the radiators, i prefer them, but if your running all new C/A ducts and new furnace/boiler anyway the cost diff is almost zero so thats up to preference.

    buy yourself a chain saw and callus those soft hands on that shrubbage mess.

  118. Groove77 says:

    “you obviously have never done renovation/building work in chicago.

    demo will absolutely be at least 40k”

    ummmmmm renovating and 40k complete demo are a bit of offstanding concepts i would think?

  119. clio says:

    I love it when folks who have never done construction start giving quotes about how much they THINK it would cost. Stop posting and actually call some of these contractors/builders/architects and you will soon see how cost-prohibitive it is.

  120. Milkster says:

    My RE broker’s business partner builds green homes. He can tear down an existing house for 15K.

  121. Groove77 says:

    “I live and work on the North Shore, and my home is about 10 miles from work. I drive a Prius”

    sorry because you admitted you drive that thing i am no longer allowed to read your posts or validate any of your future opinions.

  122. Bob says:

    I drive a fuel efficient car that gets 44mpg highway. I also get reimbursed 55.5cpm for fuel even though gas costs me around 9. cribchatterers fascination with trains likely reflects both their unawareness that most opportunities in chicagoland require a car and that they are mostly the lower white collar caste as evidenced that many don’t have cars and work near rail stops.

  123. clio says:

    Milkster, check with your friend again – in the city of chicago, that is absolutely impossible. There are many fees that have to be paid (which total over 5k themselves). In addition, depending on the house many overages are added. Beware of anyone that claims they can do something for a fixed price. That person either:
    1. doesn’t know what they are talking about
    2. is lying for whatever ulterior motive
    3. is a con artist who comes in at a low price and then slowly adds – this is the most likely scenario – I have been through this a million times. Even when contractors tell me “don’t worry – it definitely won’t be over x amount” and then of course, they come back and say, “well we didn’t count on this or that” or “that price didn’t include this or that”

  124. Groove77 says:

    “I love it when folks who have never done construction start giving quotes about how much they THINK it would cost. Stop posting and actually call some of these contractors/builders/architects and you will soon see how cost-prohibitive it is.”

    i love it when doctors have way to much time and should be furthering there knowledge to help there patients!!!

    and really doode i have never seen you get close to an actual estimate that a GC would give. and are usually 5x’s over what i would quote a homeowner.

  125. Sonies says:

    I get paid 200 a month tax free to not have a car, whats your point

  126. Luigi says:

    I’ve always liked the Belmont El stop neighborhood, due to its eclectic atmosphere. I ate at Mama Desta’ Ethiopian Restaurant once on Belmont near Clark. My college roomate used to rent on Kenmore and I visited this neighborhood alot.

  127. clio says:

    “and really doode i have never seen you get close to an actual estimate that a GC would give. and are usually 5x’s over what i would quote a homeowner.”

    see #3 above

  128. danny (lower case D) says:

    I drove my Dad’s Prius for a month, while they were overseas. It was a great drive in every way. I filled it up once the entire month.

  129. Bob says:

    Sonies my car costs me 3500/yr in total costs I get reimbursed 7800/yr for mileage. That’s over 350$/mo tax free for me & Co. is happy to pay it cuz they’re outside of crook county & probably save more on rent & taxes. This is the future of economic growth in chicagoland.

  130. Sonies says:

    thats funny, i rented a prius for an hour or two from zipcar once and I wanted to kill someone, HATED that car

    bad sightlines, annoying controls, the general slowness of the car, I just couldn’t stand it

    and gas is like the cheapest expense when owning a car so who cares

  131. Sonies says:

    yeah bob but how much paperwork is involved to get that money :)

  132. Vlajos says:

    Why is rent at an all time high in the City Bob?

  133. Vlajos says:

    Prius is the worst car I’ve ever driven. I box with huge blind spots.

  134. Bob says:

    my point is that crook county is doomed from a job creation standpoint unless you’re talking about 30k/yr Groupon sales reps.

  135. Vlajos says:

    Bob, you obviously have no clue. Wait and see what happens when the boomers move on. The suburbs are gonna struggle.

  136. Groove77 says:

    “see #3 above”

    saw it and still think your a wackjob, yes it will always be over when the work is done. and usually is 10 at most 15% than the original quote. but during the GC will walk you over to what “they say” wasnt expected and will tell you it will be around xxx then ad 10% to what he said. so at the end you already expected the extra plus the 10% overage.

    and GC’s will and do work under a fixed cost system, not many but they are out there. and its usually a new guy trying to build a customer base/name rec type of thing.

    some others on fixed quoted costs are the big generic companies, (i.e. feldco)

    so stop talking out your azz and talk about things you know or just shut up and get some work done.

  137. DZ says:

    “Sonies my car costs me 3500/yr in total costs I get reimbursed 7800/yr for mileage. That’s over 350$/mo tax free for me & Co. is happy to pay it cuz they’re outside of crook county & probably save more on rent & taxes. This is the future of economic growth in chicagoland.”

    So you drive to work on a regular basis (and get reimbursed for it)? I don’t think you get to talk about how much you love the bus if you’re not taking it to work every day.

  138. Bob says:

    behind quite a bit of paperwork. doesn’t help that the system can’t goto tenths of a cent :o

    and when you take car depr into account its a wash but my job requires at least having a car available & using it some gigs. fvck these hipsters who can’t comprehend that.

  139. Bob says:

    took the bus last gig dz. it was great until halsted bridge was out at goose island then notsomuch luckily moved on shortly thereafter

  140. clio says:

    Groove,

    how many properties have you renovated? How many properties do you own? Yeah, that’s what I thought – keep posting away and keep dreaming in your imaginary world. It is the only way you are going to get through this life.

  141. Sonies says:

    True bob, and actually its funny I plan on getting a car in about a year and its going to be a mother fuckin gas guzzler fun car because I’ll be driving it 1-5 miles at a time a few times a month so MPG’s are negligible for me

  142. Groove77 says:

    “Groove,

    how many properties have you renovated?”

    off the top of my head maybe 110 maybe a few less or more.

    “How many properties do you own?”

    well we all know i own at least one ;) and that one was renovated with my own two hands. more than you can say huh?

    “It is the only way you are going to get through this life”

    it seems of the two of us you are the one searching for some kind of happiness that is usually bought. of the two of us your the one searching for respect and compliments.

    from the looks at it your working way way way harder to get though this thing called life….. while i am not “getting through” i am actually enjoying it.

    the worst thing about my month is wife is about to make sit while pee’ing cuz apparently i cant aim.
    So what is the worst thing about your month???? yep thought so…

    … so sit down shut the f up and let the big boy’s discuss what we know about.

  143. clio says:

    “… so sit down shut the f up and let the big boy’s discuss what we know about.”

    which is basically nothing…… go sit on the toilet awhile – oh, and don’t forget to bring your purse

  144. JMM says:

    “And in Glencoe, they have that amazing beach that is accessible to all Glencoe residents.”

    As opposed to every other village that doesn’t? Last time I checked Winnetka had no fewer than 5 parks on the lake. They even have a dog beach. That works out to just over one park for every 2000 residents.

    Good to see you finally have learned something about Chicago real estate options Sabrina.

  145. JMM says:

    “Chicago’s pension obligations are underfunded by over $14 billion.”

    I haven’t checked but unless you understand pension accounting and actuarial math and investigate the reasonableness of the actuarial assumptions used, those numbers are more or less meaningless. True more underfunded is worse than less, but a record low discount rate doesn’t exactly help matters or properly account for the situation.

  146. JMM says:

    “Where have the several rapes been?”

    Close counts in horseshoes and sexual assaults, unless you think sexual predators are unwilling to walk a block to cross Diversey.

    http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/08/02/woman-sexually-assaulted-robbed-in-lincoln-park/

    So one just two weeks ago right by a popular park lots of stay at home mommies frequent with their kids. Ok so technically Lincoln Park (only if you are a realtor), but basically South Lakeview where half your posts seem to come from.

    There have been a few others that were not well publicized plus one on Barry a couple months ago.

  147. JMM says:

    “That’s a LOT of highly paid municipal and city employees apparently.”

    Are you being honest, sarcastic or have you bothered to actually look?

    http://data.cityofchicago.org/Government/Current-Employee-Names-Salaries-and-Position-Title/r3km-swf6

  148. Groove77 says:

    “which is basically nothing…… go sit on the toilet awhile – oh, and don’t forget to bring your purse”

    Clio,

    wait you tried to call me out but yet got put in your place. and all you could come back with is that.

    your a sad sad sad man.

  149. G says:

    Yep, groove, clio and jmm at their best. Why bother?

  150. JMM says:

    “I just checked the schedule. If you don’t make an express train, it is one hour and 15 minutes ON THE TRAIN from Naperville to Union. This does not include getting to the station or from the station to the office.”

    Endora, Juliana doesn’t know what she is talking about. She is an accountant who apparently was educated before the concept of depreciation came out.

    Staying close to kids as a working mother is perfectly appropriate and I at least see it quite a bit. One of my childhood friends is married to a woman with a big career, which is also an awesome career, and they live in the city to make it work despite the fact that he, like me, despises the city.

  151. JMM says:

    G, I don’t think he was commenting on anything I wrote, so go back to the Excel please.

  152. chukdotcom says:

    “I love it when folks who have never done construction start giving quotes about how much they THINK it would cost. Stop posting and actually call some of these contractors/builders/architects and you will soon see how cost-prohibitive it is.”

    Have you done any tear downs in Chicago?

  153. homedelete says:

    JMM why do you comment on a real estate board that features almost exclusively Chicago properties, when you admit above that you despise the city?

  154. Dan #2 says:

    Groove,

    Not sure why you hate hybrid cars, but my prediction is you’ll eventually be driving one. Either you make the choice now, or it eventually will get made for you. Because gas prices will not be going down anytime soon (unless we have another prolonged recession).

  155. Bob says:

    Uhh dan2 we’ve been in a prolonged recession and gas is at 4$ just imagine what’s in store when things turn around.

  156. JMM says:

    “JMM why do you comment on a real estate board that features almost exclusively Chicago properties, when you admit above that you despise the city?”

    Largely because of investment properties in the city. Because dopes like you rent them for good money.

  157. Dan #2 says:

    True, Bob.

  158. Groove77 says:

    Dan#2,

    i hate any car under fourbanger status. and some 5cyl crap too. If you going to own a car its a disservice to yourself to below a 6.

    its hard to get a 8 now but engineers now have the 6 doing some great things.

    gas prices wont affect me until it gets $10+ then i MAY move down to a 6.

    but like you said the choice may not be mine in the future, and yes i did stock up on the old school light bulbs so the choice will still be mine until i run out!

    “(unless we have another prolonged recession).”

    wait we got out of the recent one?

  159. Bob says:

    there seems to be at least one sex assault on briar or Barry each summer yet the gal transplants keep moving there from Iowa & the likes nonetheless because they don’t know the history & think they’re safe because its near boystown so they can walk home alone wasted from the bars on Broadway or Sheffield.

    the other day saw some girl fresh off the plane from russia taking pics of the Belmont stop from Barry at 2am with a $1k+ camera. ahh to be young & dumb again.

  160. chukdotcom says:

    “Uhh dan2 we’ve been in a prolonged recession and gas is at 4$ just imagine what’s in store when things turn around.”

    I’m not 100% sure it works that way. Part of the reason why certain assets attract investment $ (gold, oil), is that they are an alternative to other less attractive ones. If things get better and other assets (stocks, houses) get more attractive, dollar gets stronger, perhaps money will move OUT of other assets like oil and gold.

    So, I’m not sure if oil is high because of “rotation” or weak dollar, or a million other things.

  161. Riz says:

    You know. With all this car talk..I have to day, I would have that luxury car dealers would e negotiating more on vehicles. I just traded in and bought a new set of wheels and I really had to busy my hump / go to a trillion dealers, and even then didn’t get a ton off msrp. That’s what I get for buying a car in the summer though.

  162. Riz says:

    Say*, thought that*. sorry, iPhone typing = whack.

  163. homedelete says:

    Riz:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-11/new-bmws-a-dollar-more-than-used-show-closing-market-gap-cars.html

    I’m also in the market for a new or used car and I found this article which I found useful. There are not many deals out there.

  164. Bob says:

    Liberals are so stupid they think that because they are ideologically sympathetic to the demographics of criminals they won’t be victimized. instead it makes them the perfect victim. like the dude I know who got held up at gunpoint the other night because they were wasted at 3am and an suv driver asked them for directions to a strip club. guy approaches the vehicle then sees the gun. don’t approach pookies vehicle to “help him” find whores at 3am and keep your wallet.

  165. Riz says:

    HD,

    that is super interesting. It kind of makes sense- i BARELY lost any money on my M3. I was expecting to take a bath on it, given that it’s a fairly specific buyer that looks for that subset of car. I negotiated my new car price before even bringing up the possibility of trading in – I’m used to dealers just ripping me off on the trade in, but I actually got more money from this non-bmw dealer for my used car trade in than most people were offering me based off my autotrader ad, and this was after settling on a price on my new car. ( Given he didn’t knock much off the new car though. )

  166. Riz says:

    “ahh to be young & dumb again.”

    As they say Bob, youth is wasted on the young.

  167. Bob says:

    oh yeah & the guy I know robbed at gunpoint that was at Clark & Barry less than 2 weeks ago. like I said these parts are wild until you start going west of Racine.

  168. Riz says:

    “There are not many deals out there.”

    HD, Chicago sucks for buying cars…I had to get out to the Wisconsin/Ohio Market to get a reasonable deal. The dealers here are just out of their minds.

  169. Vlajos says:

    That’s weird my in laws in WI almost always have to buy cars in IL because the dealers in the Green Bay area are nuts.

  170. JMM says:

    “oh yeah & the guy I know robbed at gunpoint that was at Clark & Barry less than 2 weeks ago. like I said these parts are wild until you start going west of Racine.”

    Be careful. That is probably Sabrina’s hood you are talking about. Sabrina, do yourself a favor and email the captain at district 19. Usually they have a mailing list, or at least a few districts in the city do. Don’t rely on google searches to understand what is happening in your neighborhood, lol.

  171. Bob says:

    The area around the Belmont stop is a huge haven for criminals at night in the warmer months. That’s why I was so critical of that spec house posted on here in the 3100 block of seminary. the developer is trying to list & sell in the colder months to some dumb rich person who doesn’t know they’ll be a prisoner in their house if by themself between 1130-6am in warm months.

  172. Riz says:

    ” because the dealers in the Green Bay area are nuts. ”

    I don’t know, maybe it depends on the dealer. I purchased a car from Concours motors in the milwaukee area and they gave me a better deal than loeber, fletcher jones, or anybody else around here.

  173. homedelete says:

    My inlaws sometimes come to Chicago to buy cars because the selection up there is so limited and it’s mostly american cars.

    How much money did you save over msrp?

    PS don’t forget that if you register your vehicle in Chicago, cook county is going to a come a knockin for their vehicle transfer tax…..most non-cook county dealerships in IL will withhold the tax on behalf of cook county but WI won’t do that for you….

    “Riz on August 16th, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    “There are not many deals out there.”

    HD, Chicago sucks for buying cars…I had to get out to the Wisconsin/Ohio Market to get a reasonable deal. The dealers here are just out of their minds.”

  174. Dan #2 says:

    Groove,

    My other car is an 8 (no kidding). I save it for fun drives on the weekends. It gets about 15 MPG. I agree with you. Fun to have for now, but may not be for the long-term.

    Oil is a declining resource and a natural brake on any real economic growth. Notice how oil prices boom every time the economy starts to make a move up, but the economy can’t sustain strong growth with oil at $100 so eventually recession follows and oil retreats, with the same cycle then repeating. It’s a negative feedback loop that we won’t be able to get off of unless we find a good replacement for oil or massively change our lifestyles. Switching to hybrid/electric cars might help, but it certainly isn’t the ultimate solution.

    The steady rise in oil prices since 2000 (which corresponds roughly with China/India becoming huge oil consumers) is closely linked with the sputtering U.S./European economy over the last decade.

  175. Riz says:

    “How much money did you save over msrp?”

    Chicago dealers were dumb. Some told me ‘sticker’ , others were knocking a few thousand off. I got 9200 off sticker.

  176. Riz says:

    * Also, my mom just bought a car from a dealer in ohio, it was ‘MB of north olmstead’ or something like that, and got about 11k off the sticker, in chicago the best quote we got was ~ 4k off sticker.

  177. Luigi says:

    all the runaways from Green Bay and across the Midwest end up at the Dunkin’ Donuts at Clark & Belmont.

    Do not buy another sedan, the city and state will not be fixing roads and potholes like they used to. Besides with civil unrest and flashmobs liable to increase, a 4×4 will be useful for avoidance.

    There is an article on the Sun-Times website right now, where Rahm is showing panic and desperation over the budget. Chicago is bankrupt. read closely, you can sense we’re in deep: http://www.suntimes.com/7103152-417/emanuel-on-casino-i-cannot-allow-chicago-to-fall-to-second-place.html

  178. Vlajos says:

    “Chicago dealers were dumb. Some told me ’sticker’ , others were knocking a few thousand off. I got 9200 off sticker.”

    that’s how bad things are in Ohio.

  179. Groove77 says:

    “My other car is an 8 (no kidding). I save it for fun drives on the weekends. It gets about 15 MPG. I agree with you. Fun to have for now, but may not be for the long-term”

    if the gubment wants to put more tax or penalty on my 8 i am just fine with it. taking away my choice is what angers me.
    wifey has a fourbanger against my wishes, and she complains its too slow. (she had a mini before)

    dont look for the gubment to the earth, their interests are “elsewhere”. but science still hasnt given us anything more efficient and less harming than an internal combustion engine. lab coat guys should look less at alternatives and more at replication IMO.

    but if it was really about the earth we all would be on bikes like our CDOT head wants us to be.

  180. Groove77 says:

    “where Rahm is showing panic and desperation over the budget. Chicago is bankrupt. read closely, you can sense we’re in deep”

    rahm got his wish, he just got it at the worst time possible. I didnt vote for that baztard and dont agree with most of the stuff he is doing, but am glad he is shake things up.
    I would hate to leave this city i love so much, but if it get worse i am outtie 5000!

    but all major cities are in a similar FUBAR balancing act, its not just a crook county issue.

  181. JMM says:

    “The area around the Belmont stop is a huge haven for criminals at night in the warmer months.”

    Lol. Try 25 years ago — it was gang banger central. That part of Lakeview was the wild west bro.

  182. JMM says:

    “but all major cities are in a similar FUBAR balancing act, its not just a crook county issue.”

    Worse than most, however. According to some, far worse. Most of the issue is municipal pensions. Just need to gather the balls to freeze them like every other private company.

  183. Bob says:

    Wouldn’t mind having a volt. I could care less if its coal being burnt at the other end I’m not arrogant enough to believe we can significantly alter the atmosphere. More of a cost thing. Oh and government can only make things worse– one of the reasons we had an suv + truck boom and no station wagons anymore. That poor Dodge magnum RT with its gas guzzler tax lol

  184. Luigi says:

    “but am glad he is shake things up.”

    He’s desperate, the choice quotes for Chicagoans to read:

    1) “The bottom line, according to Emanuel, is that there is no other place to turn but to casino gambling.”

    2) “I’m committed to making sure that the resources that have not been coming from Washington, that have not been coming from Springfield [are replaced].”

    3) “I will not allow Chicago’s future to be held hostage by Washington’s inaction. And I will not allow Chicago’s future to be held hostage because the state obviously has other financial issues and their resources have been drying up over the years,” the mayor said.

  185. gringozecarioca says:

    dan 2… By ‘true’ costs I was referring to the difference between a 15 minute and 1hr and 15min commute. That’s like having another 4 months of work, each and every year. Add in all the near misses and accidents that you see drivin.
    15-20 minutes max, is a good goal.

  186. Sonies says:

    “I’m committed to making sure that the resources that have not been coming from Washington, that have not been coming from Springfield [are replaced].””

    sounds better than borrowing the future of our kids away or taxing us even MORE

    nobody is forcing you to go to the casino, but at least you now have a choice and odn’t have to go to hammond, joliet or aurora

    think of all the money from chicago that gets poured into those dumpy cities

  187. Dan #2 says:

    I’m not even thinking of global warming, though it’s likely that our carbon emissions contribute to it (and even many conservatives agree that temperatures have risen, just not on the cause).

    What I’m saying is that fossil fuels are a declining resource. U.S. oil production peaked in 1970 and is now about half of the 1970 level. Some of this is indeed due to regulations against drilling, but much of it is just natural. The same thing is happening now in Saudi Arabia, which is really scary.

    Natural gas and coal could end up being great substitutes, at least for the near term. But we need long-range solutions that aren’t based on limited resources. The problem is expense. Nuclear energy is likely the best solution, but fission energy brings many problems of its own and is very costly. I’d get behind any candidate for president who promised to do an Apollo-style program to deliver cost-effective fusion (not fission) energy. So far, it’s not something science has been able to master, but if we were, it would solve all energy problems forever, as well as most of the world’s water supply issues (because fusion energy could easily be used for desalination of ocean water).

    It would be best if we dedicated economic resources to figuring fusion out now, while we still can.

  188. ChiTownGal says:

    Luigi – true dat about the “Punkin’ Donuts” at Belmont/Clark. Back in the 80′s there were a couple of hard-core rock clubs nearby, and after closing time the clientele would repair to DD to neutralize the liquor with coffee and compare fashion notes re: leather and mohawks.

  189. Bob says:

    Plug in cars powered by coal & nuclear plants could work for 200yrs or so: enough time to develop & perfect a space tether/elevator for long lived radioisotopes produced from nuclear power to be shot at the sun. Then 100% nuclear full steam ahead right when coal runs out.

  190. gringozecarioca says:

    i say convert solar energy into grass and then smoking it. Then no one will do much and less energy will be used. Problem solved.

  191. Dan #2 says:

    Is that Dunkin Donuts still there at Belmont and Clark? I lived nearby in the 70s, 80s and 90s and remember well the weird people who used to congregate there. For a while, the Alley, a headshop, was right next door.

  192. Vlajos says:

    Is that Dunkin Donuts still there at Belmont and Clark?

    yes

  193. chukdotcom says:

    More bailouts:

    http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/16/news/economy/chicken_prices/index.htm?iid=HP_LN&hpt=hp_t2

    “For its part, the National Chicken Council welcomed the bail out.”

    I bet they did…

  194. boiztwn says:

    “oh yeah & the guy I know robbed at gunpoint that was at Clark & Barry less than 2 weeks ago. like I said these parts are wild until you start going west of Racine.”

    It’s all about South of Wellington in ELV for me. Far fewer problems, and the brown lines shut down.

    As far as this property: should have stayed rental.

  195. Bob says:

    “For its part, the National Chicken Council welcomed the bail out.”

    I guess maybe the sky isn’t falling afterall.

  196. homedelete says:

    Did Dan #2 seriously just argue in favor of cold fusion? The premise of Wall Street 2: Money Never Sleeps premise? Fusion delusion?

  197. homedelete says:

    Chicken is dirt cheap these days, I’ve wondered why its so cheap. even the amish and organic chicken is cheap.

    Trick: spend 5 minutes watching a youtube video on how to cut up a chicken and pay $1.29 a pound for range free amish chicken (At least where I shop) and you get two breasts, plus the rest of the chick (save the back for stock!), where as two breasts pre-cut will set you back $4.89 a pound or higher.

  198. Bob says:

    Vintage Lakeview 2/1.5 shortsale for 200k, 1,400 sf. Parking not included. Nettlehorst school district, yet not sure why it’s in the listing given the location. No crib in these photos either–surprise! Perhaps someone with a knack for interior design will buy it.

    MLS 07881692.

    Clio how is your boystown property(s) holding up?

    P-A-R-T-Y!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhP0tOm6yt0&feature=related

  199. Bob says:

    1533 W Wellington a 2-flat foreclosure listed for 330k on six days ago already under contract.

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/1533-W-Wellington-Ave-60657/home/13365284

    Some people ARE making money in this market: savvy investors.
    Most of the stuff featured on here are owners in la-la land with little chance of selling quickly. Some get lucky and get a dope to bail them out of their reckless and irresponsible financial decision made during the bubble but dopes are going to become harder and harder to find as financing dries up.

    When Lakeview two-flats right across from the “hot jewel” with six bedrooms and three baths and a two-car garage that is habitable go under contract quickly for 330k that should be a good leading indicator to most of the rest of you which way the market is headed.

    Just sayin’.

  200. boiztwn says:

    “Vintage Lakeview 2/1.5 shortsale for 200k, 1,400 sf.”

    Kind of off-topic question. I’ve always used .5 for the 1/2 bath designation, just like this. When did this strange .1 crap start becoming the trend for a half bath? And why?

    “2.1 baths.” Just looks silly to me.

  201. Bob says:

    I consider a .1 bath what I had in a dorm room once: a sink, maybe with a mirror. That’s it.

    And then when my roommate sophomore year who was on his way to flunking out asked me when I was in deep slumber whether he could urinate in the sink because he was too lazy to walk down the hall and I muttered yes I didn’t actually think he would do it or thought I was dreaming. I realized I had to get out of the dorms then (despite having one of the nicest ones because ours had _sinks_).

    College: sinks were a luxury amenity, air conditioners a luxury amenity (and no not even central!), off street parking $78/year or something like that because we had tons of space, broadband a luxury amenity. And nobody had all of these things. And yet somehow we all survived.

    People on this blog are so Fing soft in comparison. What happened to America? I think we used to walk through 3ft of snow to get to class, too, hahahaha.

  202. miumiu says:

    could not agree more boiztwn. Makes my blood boil and believe me I am pretty cold blooded : )

  203. miumiu says:

    “we used to walk through 3ft of snow to get to class”

    Where did you go to school? Antarctica?

  204. Bob says:

    Last part was a pun on a common American idiom, miumiu.

  205. boiztwn says:

    “College: sinks were a luxury amenity, air conditioners a luxury amenity (and no not even central!)”

    Ha! I love when I meet people who think that living with window units is comparable to crapping in a bucket and tossing it out of the nearest window. You can see it in their faces. I grew up with a window A/C — and just one in the main area no less, so my sister and I sweltered upstairs in our bedrooms — and the parents still have them to this day.

    Either way, I still want to understand this new .1 bath thing. Is it a hole in the ground you pee in? I’ll never get it.

  206. DZ says:

    “Kind of off-topic question. I’ve always used .5 for the 1/2 bath designation, just like this. When did this strange .1 crap start becoming the trend for a half bath? And why?”

    Provides more info. If you saw a listing with 1.5 baths, would you be surprised if it had three half baths and no place to bathe/shower?

    “And then when my roommate sophomore year who was on his way to flunking out asked me when I was in deep slumber whether he could urinate in the sink because he was too lazy to walk down the hall and I muttered yes I didn’t actually think he would do it or thought I was dreaming. I realized I had to get out of the dorms then (despite having one of the nicest ones because ours had _sinks_).”

    Really could have been worse.

  207. Bob says:

    These days institutions of higher learning are all too eager to provide posh housing with all the amenities: cable, broadband, central air, a nice in building gym, an espresso bar, wifi, lounges and are all too eager to charge students ridiculous rents for it that aren’t competitive at all with the private sector. They’ve made a cottage industry out of putting young people into financial indentured servitude.

    It’s complete crap you can stiff your landlord or other creditors in the private sector by declaring bankruptcy if things don’t work out but you can’t get rid of education related debt no matter what. There are investors just lining up to buy these student loan backed securities because they are _risk free_. So the students get a lower rate, right? No they just load up on more debt. Right when they’re 18 and least likely to have an earnings projection to cover it (many fail out, don’t graduate, go into fields that don’t pay well, etc).

  208. miumiu says:

    Thanks for the explanation Bob.
    Maybe a .1 bath, is a nicely ventilated space to let off some steam ; )

  209. boiztwn says:

    “Provides more info. If you saw a listing with 1.5 baths, would you be surprised if it had three half baths and no place to bathe/shower?”

    LOL! What? Absolutely I would. Has there ever been a place in this market where somehow 1.5 baths means THREE half baths? .1 baths makes a 1/2 bath sound like you’re peeing in a shower drain with no showerhead.

    Ah, well. Thanks for the explanation anyway, DZ! I still think it’s a stupid designation and should be dropped in the brokerage world.

    “These days institutions of higher learning are all too eager to provide posh housing with all the amenities: cable, broadband, central air, a nice in building gym, an espresso bar, wifi, lounges and are all too eager to charge students ridiculous rents for it that aren’t competitive at all with the private sector. They’ve made a cottage industry out of putting young people into financial indentured servitude.
    It’s complete crap you can stiff your landlord or other creditors in the private sector by declaring bankruptcy if things don’t work out but you can’t get rid of education related debt no matter what.”

    Don’t get me started on that. Ugh ugh ugh.

  210. DZ says:

    “LOL! What? Absolutely I would. Has there ever been a place in this market where somehow 1.5 baths means THREE half baths?”

    More realistically, is it useful to know that a place has 2 full and 2 half versus 3 full, etc.? That’s the extra info you get from this convention (I don’t know how 3/4 bath gets dealt with).

  211. boiztwn says:

    “More realistically, is it useful to know that a place has 2 full and 2 half versus 3 full, etc.? That’s the extra info you get from this convention (I don’t know how 3/4 bath gets dealt with).”

    Realistically, most places do not have that many baths — for example, here, we’re talking about a 2/2. There are many 2/1.5 or 3/2.5s out there. If anything, just split the difference and say 2 full, 2 partial. The majority of the market does not support the .1 designation.

  212. dd says:

    Nice unit on a great lot.

  213. Sabrina says:

    “When Lakeview two-flats right across from the “hot jewel” with six bedrooms and three baths and a two-car garage that is habitable go under contract quickly for 330k that should be a good leading indicator to most of the rest of you which way the market is headed.”

    Headed down???

    Bob: a year ago- that 2-flat on Wellington was a short sale listed at $529,000.

    **completely Approved By Bank (short Sale) And Ready To Close – No Wait – Approved! **

    Apparently- no one bit at it at that price and it went back to the bank.

    What this tells me is that once most of the old 2-flats come down in price to the mid-$300,000s they will sell. Everyone else is just dreaming unless it’s in perfect condition.

  214. DZ says:

    “Realistically, most places do not have that many baths”

    Well, there’s the one below. Sure, maybe not an issue for “most” places (maybe), but there are plenty of e.g. SFH with 4 baths where you can’t be certain whether it’s 3.2 or 4.0 unless they spell it out.

    http://cribchatter.com/?p=10004

  215. clio says:

    “Clio how is your boystown property(s) holding up?”

    Bob – it is doing great. Your example is a crappy 2 bedroom short sale – cant compare to most 2 bedrooms in the area.

  216. boiztwn says:

    “Well, there’s the one below. Sure, maybe not an issue for “most” places (maybe), but there are plenty of e.g. SFH with 4 baths where you can’t be certain whether it’s 3.2 or 4.0 unless they spell it out.
    http://cribchatter.com/?p=10004

    SFH’s ~rarely~ have more than 1 half bath. They’re the common baths. Half baths are wastes of space.

    This is a vintage listings. Those will — but at those price points, I doubt anyone would suddenly drop their monocle because “It said NINE baths! SEVEN baths with four HALF baths will NEVER DO!” Those in that market are far removed from the regular market, and the .1 designation simply cheapens the bulk of all real estate out there.

  217. DZ says:

    “SFH’s ~rarely~ have more than 1 half bath. They’re the common baths. Half baths are wastes of space.”

    Lot of SFHs in coonley (just to take an example) with two half baths.

  218. Bob says:

    “SFH’s ~rarely~ have more than 1 half bath. They’re the common baths. Half baths are wastes of space.”

    One of the houses I grew up in had 2 full and 2 half baths. Pretty sure it wasn’t listed as a 3/0 either. Can’t remember how they listed it exactly but they were able to identify it as having two half baths when it came to selling it and pretty sure they didn’t use the 2.2 nomenclature. It does make sense and is a more abbreviated and informative way to convey that info if it catches on, however.

    Half baths aren’t a waste of space: one powder room near the entry and one in the basement. Who the hell likes watching football on the bigscreen in the basement to have to trek upstairs to whiz? Definitely not me, pa or any other football watching beer drinking American. And then you have to talk to ma about whatever the hell she’s cooking or watching on the TV upstairs like Oprah or ice skating. Half baths and half fridges (ie dorm fridges) are life-savers in such situations.

  219. boiztwn says:

    I will despise the .1 designation, just as I despise squiggle bulbs. I now have two personal crusades. NO ONE CAN SWAY ME!

  220. westloopelo says:

    HD,
    Came onto the “shit property day here on CC” late after a hugely busy and frustrating day. After looking at the photos of the featured properties and the miserable offerings (WTF Sabrina?) did not feel like responding to anything!!
    Regarding your request as to how much $200k would get you with the house you linked:
    First, clio’s estimates are as far off as you can get!! I mean…WAY off. Disregard his response totally!!

    Start with a thorough inspection of the house playing particular attention to load bearing walls, foundation and plumbing/heating/AC and electrical lines and keep an eye out for rotting or termite damaged wood. Also look for any sign of mold which would wipe out your bankroll.
    Determine what needed to be replaced…by the looks of it, there seems to be some strength in the original bones and layout to work with. It would be 50/50 split as to whether you would need foundation work. Maybe just some minor stabilization work.

    Onto demo with a total gut tear out. The demo work would not be that costly if you rented a dumpster, got a few friends together on a weekend and tore out all the interior walls and appliances/bath and kitchen fixtures.
    Next up replace all plumbing, electrical and duct work for heating and AC.
    To save a ton of money on an architect, contact an architect student or intern who would work with you and draw up a workable floorplan at a greatly discounted price (25% of what a working architect would charge).
    I have a uber talented individual who has been with me almost from the beginning. He is responsible for doing all of our floorplans and renderings after our inspections…(a genius of a draftsman among many other talents, although he didn’t make it past 5th grade) and he can draw out some fantastic workable plans complete with support beams, stairs and other foundation work.
    He does every project from simple 2/2s up to mansion size projects and his plans are never wrong.
    Total savings for using the services of an intern or student: over 70% off what a practicing architect would charge for, IMO, a better and more thorough job without ego getting in the way.
    Start the project with a redo of all plumbing and electrical lines. Is it legal to go this route…no comment!
    Next, salvage what windows you can and replace those that are not worth rebuilding. Huge money saver if they are usable with some work.
    Using the new floorplan to determine how to maximize every sq inch of usable floor space by rearranging interior walls, replace all drywall…another part where your friends would come in handy if you can get a under the table drywaller to lead the project.
    Finish up with a total refinishing of the wood floors, replacing kitchen, entry ways and baths with laminates to save money and replace all floorboards.
    Finally, choose three paint shades from the same color family (dark, med and light used in a variety of ways for depth and a sense of continuity throughout the entire house. Nothing worse than using all white or using so many primary colors to seperate the rooms by interrupting the flow. Doing this elimiates having rooms that appear to be chopped up. I generally use earth shades of tans to browns and muted greens.
    Use a product that is both a primer and top coat (Behr puts out a great money saving product that is highly durable, reasonably priced and comes in some great neutral colors.
    Stain both floors and newly replaced floor boards and any window/door frames thoughout the whole place. Going med to dark on these items brings some much needed sophistication to any space.
    Total cost for following this money saving (does not equal cutting corners) home rebuild process: $200-250k.
    Of course you will be putting in a ton of work yourself but after a year or so of watching the dozens of home remodeling shows on design channels, you and your friends will be up for the work. Internet is so packed with all sorts of DIY information that even novice renovators can do.
    Have fun!!

    .

  221. clio says:

    westie,

    250k is not that “far off” from my estimate of “over 300k” (re:complete renovation). Also, you are making 2 HUGE assumptions that are likely not true:

    1. Assumption that HD can and will do a SIGNIFICANT amount of the renovation himself. You don’t realize this (because you don’t have a 8-5 job), but regular working people work A LOT and, when they get home, they do not want to work another 4 hours on a renovation project (same goes for their weekends). Remember westie, not everyone came from money and owns a company and has unstructured free time all day.

    2. Assumption that HD can live in this place while it is being renovated. The steps you painfully outlined will take several months to years to complete (at least 6 months). During that time, there are double carrying costs which have to be factored in to the total cost (ie the cost of rent for 6 months – which can easily be over 10000).

    3. Assumption that HD can get the same cost as you – we all know that contractors prices and regular people prices are completely different. Westie, you also have your own crew – so your cost is COMPLETELY different than a regular person’s cost.

    Furthermore, there are codes that Chicago has implemented for 2011 which are so ridiculous and costly that, unless you do something on the sly (which you can’t with such a big project), you are going to pay through the nose to pass inspection.

    Honestly, has any real person on here done a renovation? Call builders, contractors and get estimates – you will see what I am saying is completely true.

  222. homedelete says:

    Thank you westloop! Your post was very insightful. Im going to copy it and send it to my wife!

  223. clio says:

    HD – and then make an appt w/yourself for 16 months from now when YOU file for bankruptcy. Honestly, how can you be so goddamn stupid to believe this shit? Talk to anyone who has actually been a customer/homeowner (and not a contractor) and they will tell you the REAL costs. Again, you will always get people underbidding – and the overages will absolutely be over 10-20%. Don’t get yourself into trouble – and DON’T get the wife involved – because then you will also have to make an appt for a divorce attorney in 16 months!!!

  224. homedelete says:

    clio – i’m NOT going to do this, i just want to know. Sort of like when you go shopping for a product like a bike or a stereo, you always look at the most expensive product first and then work your way down to the price range you want. That’s what I’m thinking of with this house. This is one of the ultimate fixer-uppers and has high costs; then i’ll work backwards to get to a house that only needs need a new kitchen, windows and bathrooms.

  225. westloopelo says:

    clio:

    1. He asked for input and I gave him a basic run down for work done on free or vacation time. While I don’t have a ‘pick up the briefcase and go to my tedious 9 – 5 job’, I do work.
    My usual day (weekends included) are 6am – 9 or 10 pm….MOST DAYS. So yes, you could put me in the ‘working people work a lot’ category.
    What exactly do you think I do? Log onto CC and read/post/argue with others who do not share the same opinions? OOPPSSSS…Sorry no judgement!!
    Furthermore, as I stated in that other thread, I do not ‘come from money’. Sure family is wealthy but I made what I have and not a dime is from someone else. Why are you so stuck on this notion? Yes I do own my company(ies) and as a result, every second of my day is filled with work related thoughts and actions.

    2. Looking at the few pics available, it would be possible to live in and work on this place as MANY MANY people do every day. Is is a pain? At times yes, but where there is a will there is a way. Those who do this take a huge amount of pride in buildiing their own home and save a boatload of money in the process.
    It can and is being done all across the country… esp now with so many foreclosures and short sales.
    I can personally name over a dozen couples (a few singles as well) who are in the midst of doing their own labor, are living in their projects and are dedicated to the process. And yes, I am able to advise them on major parts of their projects. It’s my life and I love doing and seeing others do this work.
    As far as the time line involved, if you are not dedicated to the project, yes it will take a long time. But if you are motivated enough to start said project it becomes your life…through all the ups and downs it takes.

    Since this is a hypothetical project, I assumed it would be a live / work in project and I wrote the basic steps involved.
    Really, it is not that difficult!! But I am sure for someone like you,who doesn’t care to ruin his manicure it would seem like a death sentence.

    3. Regarding costs..again if there is a will, there is a way. An independent contractor works on extremely tight budgets…how do you think they do it? This is a hypo scenario so I assumed HD has friends/relatives who wouldn’t mind helping.
    Again I know many people who are doing this same thing right now. They have all their relatives and acquiantances helping them and when that project is finished they move, en masse, onto the next DIY project. Again something you would know nothing about…manicure, ego, willing to pay mere mortals for things you can do yourself, etc…
    Seriously, stay off CC for a month and perform some of your own maintenance work. You’d be surprised what you can accomplish and the money you can save.
    Even ‘us rich folks’ love saving money….right??

    Re: the new codes. I am well aware of them and yes, there are ways of avoiding the local government. Not that you heard it from me, but ppl do this all the time. With all the problems and red tape Chicago has going on now do you really think they have the manpower to supervise each and every home improvement project?? Come on now you live in the real world and from the sound of your posts, it is plain to see you don’t live your life to the letter. A greased palm of an inspector goes a long way!!
    Again I am not encouraging ppl to do this, just stating reality.

    I am a contractor and I was asked my opinion and I gave it…what more do you want? The whole idea was to avoid getting professionals involved to save money and actually be able to afford a major reno. It is possible with some work and dedication.
    You want to not dirty your hands in any way…go ahead and hire a construction team to do this work. Just be prepared to pay the same amount for the work as you do the asking price of the house.

  226. westloopelo says:

    “clio – i’m NOT going to do this..”
    See you got your panties all up in a wad thinking he was really going to do this on his own!! LOL @ the extent you go to prove someone wrong

    “This is one of the ultimate fixer-uppers and has high costs; then i’ll work backwards to get to a house that only needs need a new kitchen, windows and bathrooms.”

    HD, you know this, I know this and 99% of CC readers know this. This is the way most DIYers or new to RE buyers get to what they are comfortable with.
    Look at the extreme, look at the move in ready new construction and end up with something managable in the middle.

  227. Luigi says:

    “Regarding costs..again if there is a will, there is a way.”

    HD: for a renovation, I agree with clio that this project is too big/complex for a newbie self-contracting GC that has a full-time job. If you find something less complex, you can save money by hiring American-citizen, knowledgeable, trained, union workers to do a “side job”.

    I was drinking beers at Snickers and I met the head of construction/maintenance/operations for a hotel chain, who had moved here from out of state. A seasoned guy in his late 50′s. He was already doing rehab jobs in Roscoe Village using the subs from his multi-million dollar hotel job, these guys would do his stuff personally as “side-jobs”.

  228. gringozecarioca says:

    last project i did, i lived in while it was being done. Had a great time.
    Getting involved in diy, many years ago, was one of the best things i ever taught myself.
    Westie might bugger the shit out of me at times, but that was one of the best posts on CC. But my walls stay white!

  229. G says:

    “While 99% of my family is employed in some facet of RE, their experience is just that…THEIRS. While they did get me started by advising me of tools of the trade…a good solid base of knowledge, they did not give me any financial assistance to get my business off the ground.”

    “Furthermore, as I stated in that other thread, I do not ‘come from money’. Sure family is wealthy but I made what I have and not a dime is from someone else. Why are you so stuck on this notion?”

    “I was very fortunate to have inherited a nice trust fund which I used as a financial base from my relatives, but it was only enough to get started with the most basic of tools and a few dilapidated buildings.”

    LOL

  230. anon (tfo) says:

    “Westie might bugger the shit out of me at times”

    So you two *do* know each other!

  231. gringozecarioca says:

    ROFLMAO… What one finds out about oneself in just the funniest ways… and all of a sudden colors no longer frighten me and ‘oh what lovely window dressings!!!’

    sun be very strong, beatin on my head, out in the pasture…

  232. Bob says:

    Luigi howabout them Snickers bartenders. ohhhhhh yah.

  233. gringozecarioca says:

    besides… With westies resources, despite the pride i take in maintaining myself’, i’m sure i’m not close to young and pretty enough compared to what he must pull with his ‘want to see my le corbus’ pickup line. That’s gotta work like waving a hershey bar in front of a fat chick.

  234. homedelete says:

    IF I WERE to do this, and that’s not going to happen, I would hire a GC I can trust, and I have a BIL who is willing to help me out. The DIY would involve minimal manual labor on my part, but I would be involved choosing materials, finishes, and inspecting the GC’s inspections to make sure I wasn’t getting fleeced, etc. I could do it with a full time job, I don’t have to live in the unit while it’s getting rehabbed. I like the idea of putting in a new kitchen, bathroom, windows, more than I like gutting, new electrical, insulation, HVAC, etc. if the structural stuff is sufficient for the time being, I will try to avoid gutting, and gutting plaster is a pain in the ass too.

  235. anon (tfo) says:

    “I like the idea of putting in [mainly cosmetic stuff] more than I like … new electrical”

    Yeah, but you aren’t going to find a place that truly *needs* new bathrooms and windows (kitchen is a different story, prolly) and doesn’t NEED new electrical, and prolly (some) new plumbing.

  236. Luigi says:

    “choosing materials, finishes”

    Using that builder supply complex (Studio 41 etc.) at 2500 North Pulaski Road, Chicago, IL as an random example of a place to buy materials & finishes…..does anyone know how someone can get “contractor pricing” at these types of places and be confident that they didn’t “pay retail”? How does it work? anyone know? tks

  237. Bob says:

    I don’t understand the fixation with union workers and doing everything above board. I have a stoner buddy who isn’t a union carpenter who has helped me fix things up before. For very cheap. It seems everyone here on CC has grandiose plans of to the studs gut rehab or nothing. A lot of time “cosmetic” is just fine and you can do some functional improvements with “cosmetic”.

  238. Luigi says:

    Bob, the best is to get an English-speaking American citizen, with talent and union-type experience on high-level commercial jobs, to do the work “as a side job” where you are paying the individual directly in cash, not paying formal wages.

  239. Luigi says:

    PS Lots of these union guys do plumbing, elec, drywall & tenant improvement projects on commerical buildings and schlock-work is absolutely not tolerated. Therefore they have skill and being able to communicate clearly and directly in English with subs is CRITICAL, imho. I did a job with a Polish immigrant, and communication was a complete pain, and would never do that again.

  240. Bob says:

    Luigi that’s kinda my plan. Already know an elictrician & a plumber. Will likely know a carpenter/drywaller by the time I’m ready as well. I just hope the market is still slowish so I can get a good rate. right now it appears slow as they do some day drinkin’

  241. anon (tfo) says:

    “Lots of these union guys do plumbing, elec, drywall & tenant improvement projects on commerical buildings and schlock-work is absolutely not tolerated.”

    Except when it is, remains undetected for months or years, and then results in, say, a flooded office. Don’t ask how I know.

    On life-safety stuff, they’re much, much better tho.

  242. miumiu says:

    Luigi, we get it no mexicans. no need to repeat it 200 times! Are you Dan reincarnated with an Italian name now?

  243. miumiu says:

    and let’s not forget the terrible Poles especially the ones in right half plane : )

  244. homedelete says:

    you’re right anon, is difficult to find a place like you describe. so that makes every estate sale or older home a gut rehab. Yet some people look my ‘gut rehabs’ and say “wow i could make do with that and fix things over time.” whereas I’m eventually going ot do something in between, like renovate and update a fixer upper before I move in. it jst has to be the right price. some of these fixer uppers are asking $300,000 and after putting in $125,000 or more it all the sudden becomes one of the most expensive houses on the block.

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/5015-W-Balmoral-Ave-60630/home/13499327

    This house is one of those homes, I think we discussed it before. It has promise, replace the nasty vinyl siding, put an addition on the back of the huge 50×150 lot, update the things that need updating, but at $300k plus $150 reno (which is conservative) you have a $450,000 home, and that makes the amount you have into the home one of the most expensive in the neighborhood that’s sold since the market crashed in 2008, and that’s a scary propositoin. $200 or $225, OK now the numbers start to make sense, but higher than that and it just sits.

    Let’s face it, there is no easy answer.

  245. Luigi says:

    There are lots of Polish & Mexican_americans who are union members, citizens, that speak English well. Whoever said there weren’t? I am telling HD and anyone out there, do not do your first reno with someone who doesn’t speak English as their first language. Sure some of the GC’s workers might not speak English at all, that’s somewhat tolerable, not preferred, but people should be damn sure that the top guy speaks English and can listen to what you are saying in normal English. In my experience, I had to repeat things over, speak using limited vocab words like speaking to a 3rd grader (not that the GC was stupid, he wasn’t), and listening so intently through the thick accent gave me a headache, and it doesn’t sound like HD has time to waste on this kind of stuff.

  246. homedelete says:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/4252-N-Lowell-Ave-60641/home/13480727

    Like this person here, the seller had almost a $690,000 mortgage on this home after all the renovations and after years on the market it finally sold for $567,000.

    And get this: The buyer put down $57,000, or 10% of the purchase price, and got a $417 plus a 2nd mortgage; and with PITI I estimate the monthly payment is ~$3,300 a month or more. How insane is that? talk about leverage on that house. and this just sold a few weeks ago. no wonder it’s so slow out there, there can’t be too many buyers willing to commit $3,400 a month, at a 9 to 1 leverage ratio, to buy $567,000 homes. how can anyone compete with that insanity?

  247. homedelete says:

    Luigi -I will find an english speaking contractor.

  248. anon (tfo) says:

    “do not do your first reno with someone who doesn’t speak English as their first language”

    Concur, unless you speak the language *fluently* yourself.

  249. homedelete says:

    This is bad ass:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/3817-N-Keeler-Ave-60641/home/13458280

    50×160 lot. 7 bedroom, turret, victorian (my fav next to midcentury i know they are polar opposites), $399,000. No way you can renovate this for $200,000 at least not very nice. but that would be incredible. put a fence around the vacant lot next door, open and notoriously, and claim yourself some adverse possession.

  250. homedelete says:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/3815-N-Ridgeway-Ave-60618/home/13457585

    wow, a flurry of posts while I eat lunch at my desk…

    here’s a foursquare that’s been renovated

    I would like to do something like this, but then it makes the house so expensive that it has a hard time selling.

  251. Bob says:

    HD how exactly are you gonna finance your not so lol endeavor? FHA 203 quicky rehab loans cap at 30k and pretty sure the not so quick larger loans don’t go up to six figures. You gonna commit financial suicide by raiding the retirement accounts? How are you gonna afford the carrying costs on two places while you work on the reno?

    no offense but your plan doesn’t seem very well thought out.

  252. Luigi says:

    3815 N RIDGEWAY Ave
    CHICAGO, IL 60618

    Mar 24, 2004 Sold (Public Records) $515,000
    Jun 08, 1998 Sold (Public Records) $298,000

    I assume it’s the 2004 buyer that did the rehab? If so, with a job that expensively well done, selling at $625K or below has to be selling at a loss.

  253. Milkster says:

    “Let’s face it, there is no easy answer.”

    HD -

    I’ll break it to you gently. Your price point is WAY too high. You need to look at stuff under 250K. You can get something in your preferred neighborhoods in that range. Buy something which already has 3 BRs and 2 BAs. Do not buy anything which needs structural work. And do not buy anything which needs more than 50K in work.

  254. G says:

    “I would like to do something like this, but then it makes the house so expensive that it has a hard time selling.”

    Not if you look at some of the reno for what it is: an expense. Then you will have no difficulty selling at all at the market price.

  255. homedelete says:

    BOB:

    my plan is exceptionally well thought out. My wife and I have credit scores are over 800 each. We have a 20% down payment liquid – not including emergency savings, or retirement accounts. It’s not hard to save over $40,000 a year when your rent is $850.00.

    We’ve already been pre-approved for a private construction loan with a TBTF bank. You need 20% down of the final loan amount. For example, if you buy a $200,000 fixer upper (Which are usually REO’s and estate sales that go quick but they do exist!), you put $150,000 into it for a total of $350,000. 20% of $350,000 is $75,000; which is a $275,000 mortgage. it’s a 5% mortgage rate b/c it’s a construction loan for a PITI of roughly $1,800 to $2,000 a month. We may put down 33% instead of 20% to lower the monthly payment (cash flow is very important). The bank handles the escrow, and they have a list of approved contractors, or you can use your own but they have to agree to a background and references check. The broker told me he would write the preapproval letter for whatever amount I like upto $417,00 because that’s the conforming limit. after the house is completed, it is reappraised, for presumably more than the mortgage amount, and then it is sold off to fannie/freddie as a regular conforming mortgage, and the servicing rights are held by the TBTF.

    I don’t know why you would say my plan is not well thought out. Hell, if I could get that house in forest glen for $225,000 instead of $335k list the list price, I’d put a chunk of money into it and move in later this year. I do my homework.

  256. Bob says:

    HS could prolly stretch the budget and get that 625k place for 560k or so. You would need 143k down to get the best financing terms. You could save that in under 3 yrs. BTW as an side note fuck Fannie & Freddie. for shits n giggles I like to see how to borrow the most $ cheapest and lately as it turns out they’re even charging a quarter of a point extra for SFHs between 75-80% LTV. Now you need 139k down to borrow that 417k on most favorable terms. Keep clipping coupons HD. Cici’s pizza runs two-for-one buffets sometimes too and I think kids under 12 eat free! :D

  257. homedelete says:

    G: “Not if you look at some of the reno for what it is: an expense. Then you will have no difficulty selling at all at the market price.”

    Then the price of the home better be discounted to reflect those necessary expenses.

    Milkster: http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/4055-N-Kenneth-Ave-60641/home/13481787

    Purchased in the area I like for $133,000 (under K within days I might add!) and rehabbed, then on the market for $350,000 and again, under contract within days. The problem is competing with the rehabbers who scour the foreclosures and estate sales and snap them up. The trick is to overpay a little bit because that is the rehabber’s profit.

  258. homedelete says:

    Milkster:

    Even this ‘highway’ house sold for $95,000 (after being listed for $120,000 at first!) and is now rehabbed and under contract in the $300′s. $200,000 can go a long way to fixing up a place if you can get the home for the right price.

  259. DZ says:

    “Purchased in the area I like for $133,000 (under K within days I might add!) and rehabbed, then on the market for $350,000 and again, under contract within days. The problem is competing with the rehabbers who scour the foreclosures and estate sales and snap them up. The trick is to overpay a little bit because that is the rehabber’s profit.”

    Why don’t you buy something like that pre-rehab (or post-rehab for that matter)? Isn’t this a gut that seems to you to be a reasonable price? Why not buy it?

  260. Bob says:

    I am unfamiliar with construction loans sorry. But building a spec home is a huge undertaking & that 625k house you posted ain’t moving. its already six months old & stale on the MLS and Sumner selling season is about over. if you’re saving 40k/yr far safer strategy is be patient and buy a house just like that at 75% LTV. 40k/yr isn’t pleb savings. just live like a pleb for another 18 or 30 months (& hint buy in winter)

  261. Groove77 says:

    “Hell, if I could get that house in forest glen for $225,000″

    we all would like that. good luck to you my friend!

    one final thought, and this is personal opinion YMMV. doing remodeling while living there is not fun or comfortable. I was lucky to have the opportunity to do mine when we didnt have a kid and were young. i did a bathroom remodel when wifey was prego, and that was stressful enough.
    We both agreed that we will not do a major remodel job or buy a house that needs a major remodel job if we have to live there at the same time or until kids are in there teens.

    again YMMV, everyone’s tolerance is diff.

  262. homedelete says:

    Bob, it’s about low overhead, not about clipping coupons. Low rent, no car payments, and making food (tough to go out to eat often with an infant). Cut back on the expensive vacations, and keep other expenses low. I know people who make less than I do and they have fishing boats, storage expenses, a car not AND a motorcycle note, a $2,200 a month mortgage, and dining expenses that all end up on the credit card. I can life without all those things and as a result, I can save tens of thousands of dollars. it’s not that hard and I don’t feel like my life is constrained in anyway. Yes I have a vintage rental, and yes my car is a little older, and no i don’t like in the green zone but none of those thigns work out well for me.

  263. DZ says:

    “We may put down 33% instead of 20% to lower the monthly payment (cash flow is very important).”

    Would you keep the 13% in something grossly illiquid? Otherwise I don’t understand the cash flow point. You can always draw from that if needed.

    “40k/yr isn’t pleb savings. just live like a pleb for another 18 or 30 months (& hint buy in winter)”

    Or do that for 3 years, put a good chunk toward the house, and buy in time for school.

  264. DZ says:

    “tough to go out to eat often with an infant”

    No, *now* is the time to go out. Trying to eat out with a toddler may be quite difficult, depending on toddler.

  265. homedelete says:

    groove: That’s the great part about low overhead – I could afford to live in my current apartment WHILE the renovating is on going without straining my monthly cash flow budget. So it’s perfect.

    What is the right price for the forest glen house? $335 seems a bit much to me, especially given allthe work, but then again, people always seem to pay more than I think something is worth.

    DZ: The reason I didn’t do the $350k bungalow is becuase 1) I wasn’t looking at the time it was sold to teh rehabber (And it went under contract in 3 days); and 2) i’d rather do it myself than pay the rehabber a hefty profit and 3) the rehabbed property also went under contract in 3 days or something ridiculous like that. I don’t play the multiple bid game and fighting over one property. That’s so 2005.

  266. Bob says:

    I think HD can do it in 18 or 30 months vs 36+ because that’s enough time for Mr Dumbo to realize his pride n joy ain’t worth 625k or for the bank to take it from him and relist. also his kid won’t be in school by then and buyers always have more leverage/less competition in the cold months. the cold months keep the meek at home. when sellers see very few show up at their open houses reality has to start sinking in.

  267. homedelete says:

    DZ: the kiddo is more toddler than infant now. sits in a high chair, throws food on the floor, screams a lot. doesn’t like the word ‘No’ and starts crying. Fun. you have this to look forward to miumiu.

    miumiu- that house is WAY to close to the highway on-ramp.

  268. Bob says:

    was being facetious about the couponing comment thought it was obvious when I mentioned cicis. its a low quality pizza buffet for drovers. but its good for families too as kids love it. but this grouponing craze has allowed me to cut my living expenses down significantly. I bank around what you do but no job security here. its feast & famine. and now its feast :D

    my friends with steady jobs can’t seem to grasp why I don’t live it up more. I can’t seem to grasp how in between jobs they wind up practically starving.

  269. Groove77 says:

    “tough to go out to eat often with an infant”

    No, *now* is the time to go out. Trying to eat out with a toddler may be quite difficult, depending on toddler.”

    ding ding ding! GO OUT NOW once the hit 1.5 years thats when its hard.

    right now for you she will sleep most of the dinner.

  270. DZ says:

    “I don’t play the multiple bid game and fighting over one property. That’s so 2005.”

    In all seriousness, I very much understand this mindset. Still, if you think you understand what the price should be pretty well and if you really like the location, then I’d be willing to fight over the property. Not above what I think it’s worth to me, but I wouldn’t disregard it just because there are other bidders.

  271. gringozecarioca says:

    fyi.. I’ll agree with DZ… The 13percent is better liquid and in your hand.

  272. miumiu says:

    HD, mine fusses even now when we go out so basically I am either feeding him, rocking him or take him out in his stroller. I don’t know about you, but this is it for me. No more kids : )

  273. homedelete says:

    You’re look at this all wrong. A home isn’t an investment. It’s a place to live, and there is long term debt that is associated with that. Its better to pay off the house quickly. Prepaying a mortgage is not like prepaying rent to your landlord.

  274. homedelete says:

    Dz: given that this is the largest purchase of my life, I need breathing room. touring a property the same day it goes on the MLS with a dozen or more other buyers and putting in a bid the same day, along with a half a dozen other buyers, for the one reasonably priced move-in condition property in the freakin entire zip code sounds like a horrible nightmare buying experienc.e

  275. DZ says:

    “given that this is the largest purchase of my life, I need breathing room. touring a property the same day it goes on the MLS with a dozen or more other buyers and putting in a bid the same day, along with a half a dozen other buyers, for the one reasonably priced move-in condition property in the freakin entire zip code sounds like a horrible nightmare buying experienc.e”

    Look, I just spent 2 minutes comparison shopping for a bag of peanuts (7 Select Hot Peanuts for 49 cents btw), so I’m very sympathetic to your viewpoint. But you have already done a s**tload of shopping around. And if you’re looking for someplace to gut, it’s more the location and lot, and any structural issues you can address on inspection, than trying to figure out if the room layouts are exactly right or if you like hte backsplash they put in.

  276. tomm says:

    “friends who make less and buy…that all end up on the credit card….”

    And another example of living beyond means to ‘keep up appearances’. Hope they don’t go bankrupt. Also, some of these trend followers in 20s/30s/40s have to realize that they’re not immortal, and need to save for retirement and more.

  277. Groove77 says:

    “groove: That’s the great part about low overhead – I could afford to live in my current apartment WHILE the renovating is on going without straining my monthly cash flow budget. So it’s perfect”

    which is perfect with a infant/toddler, its a great plan to stay out until 90% done. for me my worry with little ones is the air quality while work is going on.

  278. gringozecarioca says:

    hd.. Borrowing money is simply a financial transaction. Don’t glamorize it into something it is not. You can always take the cash and move it into equity, in 2yrs, after you saved more. If there was ever someone that should hold cash beyond a comfort zone, it’s gotta be you.

  279. anonny says:

    Two points, both kid related.

    First, go out to eat as much as possible with an infant. It’s a breeze compared to toddlerdom (we took our infant to some of the fanciest joints in town; we won’t be going back for about 3 years). Plus, it might help in transitioning/acclimating the toddler to dinner out (not saying it will always be easy, but I would say that dining out and flying with a toddler gets better with practice – both in terms of the kid’s skills and the parents’).

    Second, regarding the condition or “finishes” of a home, particularly in the context of performing a rehab of a property, I’d be mindful of the impact that kids can have on a place. Of course, no one wants to let the kids run wild and destroy the place. But kids like to run around with stuff, ride scooters, push carts/toys around, paint, etc. The place we purchased last fall needs a kitchen rehab (it works just fine, but to bring it at least up to present day market standards for decent condos, it needs to be reconfigured, needs new countertops, new flooring, lighting, and an appliance upgrade). I’ve got serious kitchen envy, as even many of the crappy condos featured on here have nicer kitchens (well, they’re typically smaller, but they’re at least up to graniteel date). But for our 2.5 year old, the kitchen serves as a major play area (with a play table, play kitchen, painting eisel, etc.). Honestly, had we gone ahead and completed the $25k kitchen reno we hope to do (or had it been done by the seller), I’d be a bit stressed about wear and tear.

  280. homedelete says:

    gz: a financial transaction is depositing money into the bank, or making a credit card purchasing. Taking on a mortgage on a depreciating asset (or an asset not yet completed) is a risk, a big risk, and you end up being the party that owes the bank money. You shouldn’t trivialize debt like you do.

  281. homedelete says:

    http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/5215-N-La-Crosse-Ave-60630/home/13498207

    This is a deal if it actually closes at this short sale price. Location is not ideal, too close to cicero/foster, but properties further back in the neighborhood should be affected.

  282. Milkster says:

    “I would like to do something like this, but then it makes the house so expensive that it has a hard time selling.”

    Make the house safe, structurally sound and bring it up to code. Beware of overimproving cosmetically for the neighborhood and the market.

    Also, my agent set up an automatic MLS search for me with my favorite neighborhoods and my price ceilings, so every morning I get all the MLS updates via e-mail. I don’t have to pore over Redfin or anything doing my own searches. Your agent should be able to do the same for you. If not, e-mail me and I’ll put you in touch with mine.

    Break a leg, HD! And don’t feel pressured to buy if you don’t find something you love at a price you love. There will always be another property. You’ll know it when you see it.

  283. Milkster says:

    And, you might want to focus on REOs. Some good advice A-Fed gave me awhile ago.

  284. gringozecarioca says:

    hd..yep you are correct. Holding a balance sheet that has the same amount of assets in liquid cash as opposed to illiquid equity i am certain changes my net in ways too complicated for me to figure out.

    A loan…well… that should be like quantum physics to me.

  285. gringozecarioca says:

    and for the record. I never even mentioned debt, yet alone trivialized it, nor have i ever. I just was saying politely that asset in a is same as asset in b, and if you have one unseen hiccup in yr 1 or 2 you have too high a debt to liquid asset ratio. So my way is actually more conservative but you dont know jack shit about either risk or basic accounting 101.
    Now go back to not listening me like you have since you accused me of not being on your team anymore, when i said 2+yrs ago the world ain’t ending. Btw.. It still ain’t!

  286. homedelete says:

    “So my way is actually more conservative but you dont know jack shit about either risk or basic accounting 101.”

    OF course, the transfer of an asset from one class to another….

    except for the thousands of dollars in interest every month for that privilege.

  287. Luigi says:

    “I don’t know about you, but this is it for me. No more kids.”

    I think every child deserves at least one sibling in life. It’s not all about you and luxury goods.

  288. miumiu says:

    you have a point Luigi. If I multiply again it will be for that reason.

  289. anon (tfo) says:

    “except for the thousands of dollars in interest every month for that privilege.”

    Um, you’re talking about moving from an LtV of .67 to .8. At 5%. On something like $400k.

    [.13*400,000*.05]/12 = $216.67 per month. Which ain’t “thousands”, except in the NewMath.

    And, anyway, Ze wasn’t saying “don’t put more into equity”, he was saying “keep more than the minimum liquid”, which may sound like the same thing, but that, too, ain’t, except in the NewAppliedMath.

  290. Sonies says:

    whats that old saying ze? a lawyer and his money are soon parted?

  291. DZ says:

    “[.13*400,000*.05]/12 = $216.67 per month. Which ain’t “thousands”, except in the NewMath.”

    While it’s difficult to take issue with the numbers (other than that you don’t have an HD exaggeration factor in there), the thing is with HD that his incremental money would probably go into a hole in the ground, so a 5 percent (or whatever it is after accounting for tax effects) return looks pretty good to him. And he’s got lots of other money in his holes in the ground, so he’s no where close to minimum lquidity.

    “Ze wasn’t saying “don’t put more into equity””

    Yeah, but I think Ze does believe that. I also wasn’t saying that HD should not put more money toward equity, just that the cash flow rationale for doing so didn’t make sense. Unless it’s winter time and hard to dig up the money.

  292. gringozecarioca says:

    hd.. No way i go back into it. I did one time. Find it. You are transfering risk from the bank to you, risk doesn’t transfer for free. That’s the majority of the pmt. Principal is a wash. The rest you account for as spread on the 10yr vs cash plus their vig.

    You are removing risk from the bank… Sheesh… Then complain about the unconsionable advantage they have. Of course they do.. You think you’re winning when you’re helping them.

  293. gringozecarioca says:

    what i am saying is HD may be the most conservative guy i ever heard in my life. If he wants to pay all equity go nuts. My argument is splitting hairs, but nonetheless mathematically factual.

    What i am saying is if he can save 40 a yr, pay it in a year, but god forbid anything happens unexpected that requires him to worry about his cash.. Oh boy will he worry, this is HD we are talking about, he could start banging his head against the wall of a subway if he gets nervous.. And for what.. 100 a month? Vs knowing that 35k could cover a yr and half of pmts. Then there’s all the pieces he doesnt value, like transfer of risk. It has value!!

  294. anon (tfo) says:

    “While it’s difficult to take issue with the numbers (other than that you don’t have an HD exaggeration factor in there)”

    Right. Forgot the HD exaggeration factor, which we have now defined as somewhere between ~10^.96 and ~10^1.65.

  295. JMM says:

    “which is perfect with a infant/toddler, its a great plan to stay out until 90% done. for me my worry with little ones is the air quality while work is going on.”

    First of all, a non sarcuastic piece of advice. Do not move in until fully done. Most of the crap HD is looking at has lead paint and, though far less likely, asbestos to worry about. It is unacceptable to bring a child into anything less than a fully completed and inspected final build.

    HD – you are in for a ride if you think you will be successful with a construction reno loan. I invite you to investigate the process of lien waivers, chasing subs down, etc. It will take 50% longer than you think, and cost 50% more than you think. $150 sq ft for a reno especially if mechanicals, siding and roofing are involved. I believe the rates also almost always adjust so it could be more expensive once construction is put in place.

    Lastly, you are in for trouble buying in a marginal area of Chicago and then improving it. The ven overlap of nicely renovated houses and non-GZ areas as you call it is very slim. Chicago is only getting worse and fringe areas are faring much worse than core areas. Not only do you risk over improving, but replacement costs are far in excess of market costs right now so you are losing money day 1.

  296. gringozecarioca says:

    what makes this funny. Is i ain’t arguing my position. I’m arguing against it.

    Sonies.. I only know that everytime i talk to a lawyer i’m the fool, and the only one whose money seems to have departed is mine as well.

    Now goin to cook me some crispy cubed potatoes. Can anyone fed ex me some peter lugar sauce?

  297. gringozecarioca says:

    what makes this funny. Is i ain’t arguing my position. I’m arguing against it.

    Sonies.. I only know that everytime i talk to a lawyer i’m the fool, and the only one whose money seems to have departed is mine as well.

    Now goin to cook me some crispy cubed potatoes. Can anyone fed ex me some peter lugar sauce?

  298. homedelete says:

    JMM – Hey, discussing something is one thing; taking the plunge is another. I’m still well into the former here, with little interest in plunging into the latter other than for an updated kitchen and bath.

  299. homedelete says:

    “Lastly, you are in for trouble buying in a marginal area of Chicago and then improving it. The ven overlap of nicely renovated houses and non-GZ areas as you call it is very slim. ”

    The rehabbers seem to be doing it all the time and seem to be making plenty of money; there is high demand for the rehabs, look around albany park, portage park, mayfair, avondale, old irving park, irving park, edgewater, etc. The ‘cheap’ properties go under contract in days, and bids are likely submitted within hours. There would be more properties available but for the slow down in foreclosures….i’ve seen cases 2 and 3 years old with no movement at all, no loan mod, nothing, especially if there was a countrywide loan.

    Like I said, I’m just providing a topic of discussion on this thread (And maybe a lot of the posts too) that is slightly different from, say, baby strollers or condos downtown. Take it for what it’s worth.

  300. gringozecarioca says:

    groove… I’m sorry.. Saying HD is someone who won’t pee in the bathroom without the lights on cause he’s afraid there might be ghosts behind the shower curtain, was so much funnier… I don’t know why i deleted that… My bad.

  301. JMM says:

    Out of favor areas are a no-win. You will either half improve and live in a sub par unit or over improve for the neighborhood.

    Plus most of what you present are in crap school districts. Don’t believe the “it’s getting better” or “kindergarten was full of genius kids with Harvard MBA parents, so you just wait” bs. None of it is true. Good CPS schools are heavily boosted by wealthy and active parents. If you want public, stick to that mix. Not to offend but parochial is more about the parents than the kids. Not academic at all, save a few examples which are still middling compared to the best.

    The simple fact is that you can get a quality SFH for 600-750k in Lakeview or North Center. Screw Lincoln Park — its a ripoff and mostly older families anyway. Look at Burley, west of Ashland. Or Blaine, west of Ashland. The check the friends of organization to see how much they have in the bank and what their annual fund raising is. That is key with CPS cutting. Plus it is a good litmus for everything going on. Ours has like 800k in the bank. Plus we have almost no state or federal funding (can’t help CPS on that one).

    Or move out of the city. I have consistently maintained for years it is a ripoff compared with suburbs. Simply put, what once was will be once more.

  302. Nat says:

    Milkster:
    “Also, my agent set up an automatic MLS search for me with my favorite neighborhoods and my price ceilings, so every morning I get all the MLS updates via e-mail. I don’t have to pore over Redfin or anything doing my own searches.”
    You can do the same thing with redfin.

  303. JMM says:

    “The rehabbers seem to be doing it all the time and seem to be making plenty of money”

    Right. It is boom time for rehabbers. Give me a break. They are lucky if they are making $20 / hr committed when all is said and done. I work with these guys every day and they are all desparate for work. It’s the only thing they know, what do you expect them to do? Become priests?

  304. Bob says:

    Seriously if you want that 625k house a much, much, much more rational situation is to wait for it.

    I think you’ll be saving up for the downpayment at about the same rate the idiot has to cut price (~3.5k/month, conservative estimate). Of course that doesn’t help you get to 20% down as fast as 2x but if you look at it that way your net worth is improving by 7k/month after tax. Not many working stiffs can make that claim. Most are already financially tied to a property so that is dragging them down.

  305. homedelete says:

    Bob: That $40k a year is going to increase to $60,000 a year or more in 3 years after some student loans are paid off and daycare is over. I’ll need to fit a new car in there somehow (probably cash like a new american suv or something); and if I move to park ridge or whatever, public school is free (part of RE taxes etc). The question is how to invest that money. stocks to me = gambling (and this is a fairly recent issue); CD’s and things like that are a joke; so basically between paying off debt or investing in various friend’s business ventures, or putting my money into a hole in the ground, there aren’t many options better than paying down a mortgage.

  306. homedelete says:

    Bob: I wouldn’t pay $625 for that house in that terrible elementary school district. at least where I live now the school is passable. There it’s abysmal. If I told my family or my inlaws that I lived in a $625,000 house they would shit their pants, they already all think I’m crazy for living in the chicago area. They may not have JMM money but they probably have more money put away than 95% of the US population, definintely betwen 3-5 million per relative not including personal residence which is proably in the $300s. I too would like to live modestly in the $300′s but that’s difficult to do somewhere near the city and in a good school dist.

  307. homedelete says:

    ps one of my relatives won the silicon valley lottery and lives in a million dollar house he bought in the 70′s for $100k or so

  308. Sabrina says:

    “stocks to me = gambling (and this is a fairly recent issue); CD’s and things like that are a joke; so basically between paying off debt or investing in various friend’s business ventures, or putting my money into a hole in the ground, there aren’t many options better than paying down a mortgage.”

    Wow- sentiment like this is extremely bullish for stocks. I love it!

  309. chukdotcom says:

    “Wow- sentiment like this is extremely bullish for stocks. I love it!”

    Funny, you said the same thing at the exact top of the market on May 1st.

  310. Sabrina says:

    Sure. Stocks are a great investment now and they will be in 2 years, 5 years, and 10 years. If you’re accumulating now- you’ll be rich by the time we enter into another bull stock market. We’re in year #11 of this bear. Who knows when the bull will come. But if more and more people are like HD- it may come sooner than I thought (as I thought it would be at least a 15 year to 20 year bear.)

    Last week, there was a record amount of withdrawals out of domestic equity funds even though stocks came back within days. People don’t trust stocks at all. All it will take is another 20% down before most Americans join HD in the “I’ll never put my money in stocks again” camp. I can’t wait!

  311. Sabrina says:

    Chuk- the VIX was over 40 last week. That’s when you said you buy stocks. Did you buy up masses of them last week at low prices? You would have done quite well on a short term trade on a lot of them if you followed your strategy.

  312. Milkster says:

    “You can do the same thing with redfin.”

    Hi Nat -

    I love Redfin. It’s an amazing resource for buyers. But my agent provided a lot of value and I could not have bought the place I did without her. She was instrumental in writing numerous offers and relentlessly following up with unmotivated listing agents on short sales and REOs.

    If you want to buy distressed property having a good buyers agent is key. A lot of listing agents won’t respond to buyers about the cheap stuff without agents.

  313. Sabrina says:

    Also- don’t you get the listings faster with the MLS then on any of the public websites like Redfin, B&W, Rubloff etc? They always seem to be delayed about 24 hours on the public sites. And if you’re in competition for a distressed property- that can make all the difference. Time is of the essence on some properties.

  314. Milkster says:

    Fo’ realz. I saw several of the tastier listings go under contract the same day they hit MLS.

  315. Luigi says:

    “definintely betwen 3-5 million per relative”

    Just wait around for an inheritance like all the Josh/Rachels and Chad/Trixies, then you can get the GZ house!

    PS How about this suntimes article today:

    “Three of four state grads not ready for college, ACT scores show”

    http://www.suntimes.com/7109627-417/three-of-four-state-grads-not-ready-for-college-act-scores-show.html

    Several experts blamed Illinois’ poor science showing on the increased marginalization science has seen in schools worried about facing No Child Left Behind sanctions tied to reading and math results.

    “I work with [Chicago public] elementary schools where teachers will tell you very explicitly that they are told not to spend time in science,’’ said Northwestern University professor Steven McGee.

  316. Sonies says:

    that’s because people get bored with quality stocks, and wind up putting their money in the casino when they are underperforming and watching everyone else make tons of money, by then its too late and they lose their ass. I see it every time the market corrects… people are so predictable

  317. gringozecarioca says:

    i’m seeing new acceleration again down here. Crazy raw material pulls and energy demand. Significant price pressure. You will see it soon. Enjoy!

  318. homedelete says:

    I only wish investing in stocks were as simple as contrarian indicators when in reality, it’s a rigged market, with some banks making profits almost everyday they trade, and high frequency trading, not even including their incredible volume of fake and canceled orders, making up 70% of volume on the market, 80% of which is based on the top 20% of stocks. This makes 70% of all stock trades not related to fundamentals, earnings reports, board members, investment strategies, it’s simply buying low and selling high and taking a penny here and there all day long. This has been reflected in the up/down/up/down nature of the market in the last 10/15 years. It’s money in, money out, money in, money out.

    STocks in japan have been declining for how long now?

    Oh that’s right, we’re not japan, but it sure as hell feels like it.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904823804576504684049286002.html

  319. gringozecarioca says:

    HD.. It’s just rediculous… Go back 30 or 100 years ago and you just need to change the word bank for specialist. Now you want to talk about someone killing you on transactions… Those specialists were the best. Oh wait, it’s their mental ideas that were computerized and run those algos’. So same thing just faster. And what were the daily ranges in the year the dow was trading 1000. When the dow was 500? It’s always been money in and money out… Oh and what was the cause of the 87 crash? Program trading algo’s? Those awesome computers back in ’87!! Retail investors never had it so good. I remember my first stock trade. 100 shares at about a 160 dollar commision-one side.

    But keep sounding like bod fox’s boss. Wait he said your quotes about no opportunity in 84? Yep just before the biggest bull market ever..

    Do you just say anything you feel like when you write briefs?

  320. homedelete says:

    Gz: yes I do say whatever I feel when I write briefs as long as I can support it with a case or two. It works quite well for me.

    Crapshack on lowell: ddespite all of our discussion aabove, the propwerty went under contract in less than 8 days. No, it was not me who bought it.

  321. Bob says:

    Under contract.

    “so basically between paying off debt or investing in various friend’s business ventures, or putting my money into a hole in the ground, there aren’t many options better than paying down a mortgage.”

    Save yourself the worry and avoid friend’s business ventures, at least if you value the friendship. Paying off debt makes far more sense.

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